April 01, 2014

Most Obamacare "Sign-Ups" (However They're Vaguely Defined) Stemmed From Two Modest Changes in the Law
— Ace

John Sexton calls it an application of the 80/20 rule, the idea that the first 20% of effort gets you 80% of the ultimate results, and the last 20% of the results takes 80% of the effort.

Byron York notes that the great bulk of "sign-ups" occurred not due to the mandate or blowing up the individual insurance market, but due to two smaller changes.

The Times says the numbers break down like this: 4.5 million previously uninsured people are now on Medicaid; 3 million previously uninsured young people are now covered because of a provision that allows them to stay on their parents' policies until age 26; and 2 million previously uninsured people have purchased coverage on the Obamacare exchanges...

By far the largest part of Obamacare's health coverage expansion has come from a) expanding Medicaid, and b) allowing young people to stay on their parents' coverage. The part where Democrats essentially blew up the health care markets, imposed the individual mandate, and caused premiums to rise and deductibles to skyrocket? That hasn't been such a success. If the Times number are correct, all of that -- placing new burdens of higher costs and narrower choices on millions of Americans, in addition to setting the stage for coming changes in employer-based coverage -- has resulted in two million of the previously uninsured gaining coverage.

Chuck Todd, whose "news" company, MSNBC, enjoys "declaring" things, like, for example, that Iraq was in a state of civil war in 2006, now "declares" Obamacare to be "unrepealable," due to all these people who've bought in.

The health-care law is here to stay

As the Obama administration and the uninsured race to meet todayÂ’s (sort-of) deadline for Americans to have purchased health insurance, we can now say something we werenÂ’t 100% confident about back in October in November: The health-care law is here is to stay. More than 6 million have now enrolled in a health-care plan under the federal and state exchanges, which is up from a mere 100,000 back in October. And given the recent enrollment surge, itÂ’s possible the final number is close to 7 million. WhatÂ’s more, when you add the folks whoÂ’ve gotten insurance via expanded Medicaid and those under 26 who are on their parentsÂ’ insurance, overall total could be as high as 15 million....

Most of the people who've purchased insurance on the exchanges did so because they had insurance which was cancelled due to Obamacare, and were forced to buy more expensive insurance there -- so five million or so of this alleged 6-7 million were previously insured. They just have worse insurance now.

The number Todd is crowing about is all those additional people covered either by the under-26 rule or the Medicaid expansion.

To the extent he's got a point here (which I'm doubtful about; this is a Viral Meme Stunt to get MSNBC linked), which part of Obamacare is now "unrepealable"?

The part responsible for 80% of the new insured cases, which caused only 20% of the disruptions (under-26, Medicaid expansion), of the part what caused 80% of the disruptions and produced only 20% of the sign-ups?

Posted by: Ace at 06:55 AM | Comments (240)
Post contains 554 words, total size 4 kb.

1 Unrepealable?   I prefer "collapsing under it's own weight".


Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 06:58 AM (GQ8sn)

2 But TommyVee told us we were all reality deniers in the headlines thread (no seriously, go look up that delusional reply at the bottom of the comments) because of a poll of 3,300 people extrapolated to 9 million people! I don't know who to believe ace, help me out!

Posted by: Gaff at April 01, 2014 07:00 AM (uh3SH)

3 Yep, I'm now paying 2x as much for shittier insurance from the exact same insurance company I had last year. Basically I'm $5k poorer every year going forward with zero benefit. Just fucking burn $5k.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at April 01, 2014 07:02 AM (ZPrif)

4 The 2d Amendment is a mistake, but Obamacare is structurally perfect. //Chuck Tard MSLSD News

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:02 AM (TE35l)

5 3 Flatbush Joe, YOU GET IT! Infinite Wealth Growth! //Paul KRUGATON Krugman

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:03 AM (TE35l)

6 To the extent he's got a point here (which I'm doubtful about; this is a Viral Meme Stunt to get MSNBC linked), which part of Obamacare is now "unrepealable"? The part responsible for 80% of the new insured cases, which caused only 20% of the disruptions (under-26, Medicaid expansion), of the part what caused 80% of the disruptions and produced only 20% of the sign-ups? Yes.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at April 01, 2014 07:04 AM (da5Wo)

7 "unrepealable," due to all these people who've bought in. Oh? How many people had bought in to the old system, the system that worked?

Posted by: t-bird at April 01, 2014 07:04 AM (FcR7P)

8 The Times says the numbers break down like this: 4.5 million previously uninsured people are now on Medicaid; 3 million previously uninsured young people are now covered because of a provision that allows them to stay on their parents' policies until age 26; and 2 million previously uninsured people have purchased coverage on the Obamacare exchanges... So. 2 million on the 404Care exchanges. Medicaid is not the 404Care, ACA, whatever....

Posted by: rickb223 at April 01, 2014 07:04 AM (lUXJH)

9 I guarantee I'm counted twice in their stats, too, cause I registered at healthcare.gov, but I bought it "off-exchange" from the insurance carrier directly cause I didn't qualify for any subsidies and wanted to make sure I could keep seeing my doctor.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at April 01, 2014 07:04 AM (ZPrif)

10 My deductible is $3K higher than last year. My premium is $2500 higher for the year.

But the good news is my wife gets her $10/mo birth control for free now.

Liberal math: Pay $5500 more, save $120 = PROFIT!!

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:05 AM (0LHZx)

11 They may have Medicaid insurance.

But that doesn't mean they have a doctor who will accept them . . . .

------------> Latest VA scandal: Refusing to disclose the names/locations of all the different VA hospitals where the veterans--men who risked their lives for America--died because of delays.
Coming soon to all of us . . . .

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 01, 2014 07:05 AM (VjL9S)

12 SMOD cannot arrive soon enough.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:06 AM (DrWcr)

13 The part responsible for 80% of the new insured cases, which caused only 20% of the disruptions (under-26, Medicaid expansion), of the part what caused 80% of the disruptions and produced only 20% of the sign-ups? All I know is... the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true.

Posted by: jwpaine @PirateBallerina at April 01, 2014 07:06 AM (2oU2+)

14 If 2 million people were insured under their parents' plans are allowed to stay insured by their parents, doesn't that mean they weren't actually uninsured in the first place?

Posted by: Tim at April 01, 2014 07:06 AM (v9lLY)

15

"To the extent he's got a point here..."

 

 

...I wonder how he finds hats that fit him.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Outraged, My Friends at the Outrage Outlet at April 01, 2014 07:07 AM (hLRSq)

16 'Saved or created', Tim!

Posted by: t-bird at April 01, 2014 07:07 AM (FcR7P)

17 11 Royal Oil, I sent them on a Pathway to Liverpool. //Zeke Emmanuelle Rahm's Older Littler Brother

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:07 AM (TE35l)

18 For the under 26 thing, why shouldn't that be allowed? Really, with freedom to contract, shouldn't anyone be able to pay for anyone else's health insurance? It helps the insurance company (normally these people wouldn't get insurance anyway), it allows the choice for the parent paying insurance (generally, this was employee insurance, so you have the choice of only paying for yourself, you + spouse, or whole family), with the only "loser" being the family as a whole if they are overpaying for the whole family insurance. Unless I am mistaken in that the U26 thing forces all employees to purchase not just personal or spousal insurance, but I don't think that's the case.

Posted by: AMDG at April 01, 2014 07:08 AM (eFytx)

19 Pretty simple - if they are SAYING it can't be repealed, it is because they are afraid it can, and will. Projection 101.

Posted by: dantealiegri at April 01, 2014 07:08 AM (EQ7xf)

20 12 Insomniac, BE Smod...embrace plan B if they pass Amnesty.

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:08 AM (TE35l)

21

"It is unrepealable!" said the advocates for Prohibition.

 

Chuck Todd is whistling past the graveyard, a graveyard filled with the political careers of Democrats.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Outraged, My Friends at the Outrage Outlet at April 01, 2014 07:09 AM (hLRSq)

22 Iraq was quite peaceful in 2006 and still is

Posted by: Rightrt at April 01, 2014 07:09 AM (n8yIs)

23 I have hereby changed Chuck Todd's name to "Toad Choad".

This is unrepealable.

Posted by: Vortex Lovera at April 01, 2014 07:09 AM (wtvvX)

24 The sad reality is it probably is un-repealable, in as much as when faced with a chance to do it, will our lawmakers have the courage to do so knowing that it will wreak even more havoc on a system that is already screwed up as a result of the law in the first place? We keep fighting like hell of course, but our earliest chance will be January 2017, even if we take the senate no way Obama signs off on it. That the vast majority of coverage expansion is due to the medicaid expansion and age-out changes si comical, I'd cry but it's too pathetic. The 2 million number, is that people who signed up including those that got dumped off their plans as a result, or are they counting 2 Million people who had no coverage at all and "registered" for a plan, or at the website?

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:09 AM (n/ogz)

25 Chuck Todd is whistling past the graveyard, a graveyard filled with the political careers of Democrats. Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Outraged, My Friends at the Outrage Outlet at April 01, 2014 11:09 AM (hLRSq) Progressives. The chief political victory of progressives was the passing of Prohibition.

Posted by: AMDG at April 01, 2014 07:10 AM (eFytx)

26 What is one more lie from Obama?  He has so many now the additional ones do not make a dent.



And yes, 3/4 of the signups, as few as they are, come from people who were cancelled BECAUSE of Obamacide. 

Posted by: Vic[/i] at April 01, 2014 07:10 AM (T2V/1)

27 Dana PeRINO says 404Care is unrepealable because once something's baked in the cake, it can't be unbaked. Or something.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:10 AM (7ObY1)

28 18 AMDG, Heh slavery is freedom etc etc. So a Child of 26 can uh force a parent to pick up the tab on all their healthcare. Wonderful system we've built.

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:10 AM (TE35l)

29 All I know is... the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true.

Posted by: jwpaine @PirateBallerina at April 01, 2014 11:06 AM (2oU2+)

 

The flagon with the dragon has the pellet with the poison?

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:11 AM (DrWcr)

30 My guess?  Obamacare will not be repealed in one fell swoop.  That would be too embarrassing.  Instead it will be repealed in pieces and under different names until the entire mess is carted away never to be spoken of again. 

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Outraged, My Friends at the Outrage Outlet at April 01, 2014 07:11 AM (hLRSq)

31 Just wait......

Posted by: Employer Mandate at April 01, 2014 07:11 AM (Aif/5)

32 While it may be unrepealable, it is not uncollapseable. Call it Circa's Law of Stupid Policy Physics

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 01, 2014 07:12 AM (659DL)

33 30 My guess? Obamacare will not be repealed in one fell swoop. That would be too embarrassing. Instead it will be repealed in pieces and under different names until the entire mess is carted away never to be spoken of again. That's my way of thinking as well.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:12 AM (7ObY1)

34 22 Rightrt, And there have ben no grim milestones or war dead since Momjeans won in 08.....

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:12 AM (TE35l)

35 And remember: All of this was to make sure those 42 million uninsured--who were going to die any day if we didn't act now!--could get insured.

After 4 years of implementing, they got . . . 2 million?

And let us not forget: We are some 10 months away from the biggest disruption--the cancellation of group and large employer plans.

We started with 42 million.
6 million+ self-insured lost their plans.
____ million employer-insured will lose their plans.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 01, 2014 07:12 AM (VjL9S)

36 Obamacide. Posted by: Vic at April 01, 2014 11:10 AM (T2V/1) What an evocative word.

Posted by: jwpaine @PirateBallerina at April 01, 2014 07:13 AM (2oU2+)

37

SMOD cannot arrive soon enough.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 11:06 AM (DrWcr)

 

You're not getting out of this that easily.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Stay Outraged, My Friends at the Outrage Outlet at April 01, 2014 07:13 AM (hLRSq)

38 31 Just wait...... Posted by: Employer Mandate at April 01, 2014 11:11 AM (Aif/5) Delay isn't just a fmr Speaker of the House....

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at April 01, 2014 07:13 AM (da5Wo)

39 Six years of jug-fuckery, two million sign-ups. Helluva job.

Posted by: The US, population: 314 million at April 01, 2014 07:13 AM (FcR7P)

40 And to be fair, my deductible, while higher is kind of a moot issue since in the 10 or so years I have had insurance on my own, I have never met the deductible. I always had a catastrophic plan. So if it's $5K or $10K, it doesn't really matter since chances are I won't ever meet it.

But the $2500 more a year does blow. And it pretty much validates what John Fucktard Roberts said...Obamacare at the end of the day is nothing more than a tax on evil rich (mainly white) people with the money going to poor (mainly non-white) people in the form of health insurance subsidies.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:13 AM (0LHZx)

41 From Drudge that I posted on the morning thread. Totes legit url. White House spokesman Jay Carney makes stressed-out epic gaffe: 'Six out of ten people without insurance can get insurance for $100 a day or less' http://tinyurl.com/m9sgfjf

Posted by: rickb223 at April 01, 2014 07:13 AM (lUXJH)

42 And there have ben no grim milestones or war dead since Momjeans won in 08..... No homeless people either. It's weird how America only has epidemics of homelessness during Republican presidencies. Strange, huh?

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:14 AM (7ObY1)

43 Wonderful system we've built. Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 11:10 AM (TE35l) I understand that it is a show of force to make insurance companies "allow" parents to cover their U26 kid on their insurance, but really, why wasn't that the case before? I don't know the ins and outs of insurance (clearly), but wouldn't people prefer that you can buy health insurance for anyone? If you were feeling charitable, why could you not include a neighbor on your plan and just pay for it? It seems odd.

Posted by: AMDG at April 01, 2014 07:14 AM (eFytx)

44 And remember: All of this was to make sure those 42 million uninsured--who were going to die any day if we didn't act now!--could get insured.

After 4 years of implementing, they got . . . 2 million?

And let us not forget: We are some 10 months away from the biggest disruption--the cancellation of group and large employer plans.

We started with 42 million.
6 million+ self-insured lost their plans.
____ million employer-insured will lose their plans.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 01, 2014 11:12 AM (VjL9S)



All this for $2 trillion and counting!


Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:14 AM (GQ8sn)

45 Dana PeRINO says 404Care is unrepealable because once something's baked in the cake, it can't be unbaked. Or something. Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 11:10 AM (7ObY1) It's just the sad reality of the situation, just because something could be done, doesn't make it likely, especially not with the cowards we have in office. A senate full of guys like Cruz maybe. If we could magically repeal the 17th amendment and recall all the senators and replace them with folks sent with this specific mission...probably. But with a senate full of McCain's, McConnells and Murkowski's, it will never happen.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:14 AM (n/ogz)

46 It's the 20% (head) that the MSM has up its collective 80% (ass).

Posted by: Roy at April 01, 2014 07:14 AM (VndSC)

47 And for those of you who think this can be repealed....keep in mind the GOP, when it had full control of govt couldn't even repeal PBS funding. And you think they're going to repeal Obamacare? Yeah right.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:14 AM (0LHZx)

48 Chuck Todd, whose "news" company, MSNBC, enjoys "declaring" things, like, for example, that Iraq was in a state of civil war in 2006, now "declares Obamacare to be "unrepealable."



Toad must be a huge Cronkite fanboi, given Cronkite's "declaring" Vietnam unwinnable (and thus turning the country against the military).  Hence this habit of his Asylum Run By The Inmates "declaring" crap in an attempt to shape popular perceptions.  Plus there's that whole Rodent Farrow Cronkite Award thing.

Posted by: Country Singer at April 01, 2014 07:15 AM (lNw+m)

49 The  chalice  from  the  palace  was  broken,  now  the  vessel  with  the  pestle  holds  the  brew  that  is  true.

Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at April 01, 2014 07:15 AM (rXcBX)

50 So a Child of 26 can uh force a parent to pick up the tab on all their healthcare. Child of 26 can get the fuck out with the door locks changed behind them.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 01, 2014 07:15 AM (lUXJH)

51 I don't know the ins and outs of insurance (clearly), but wouldn't people prefer that you can buy health insurance for anyone? If you were feeling charitable, why could you not include a neighbor on your plan and just pay for it? It seems odd.


There's a difference between buying a separate policy for someone and including them in your own.    It's all about covering risks which is the whole point of insurance anyhow.

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:16 AM (GQ8sn)

52 This is THE hill to die on.

Posted by: Seems legit at April 01, 2014 07:16 AM (A98Xu)

53 "mowing the lawn"

Posted by: Phrasing is not really a at April 01, 2014 07:16 AM (gOoFi)

54 Surprise, surprise, surprise! That ain't my finger, neither!

Posted by: Obamer Pyle at April 01, 2014 07:17 AM (2oU2+)

55 There's a troll at the end of the News Dump thread who disagrees.

Posted by: Biff Boffo at April 01, 2014 07:17 AM (YmPwQ)

56 I was listening on the internet or reading on this website (?) where someone said the US is now the USSR with utterly fake numbers coming from the govt.

Posted by: chique d'afrique (the artist formerly known as african chick) at April 01, 2014 07:18 AM (r+7wo)

57 "keep in mind the GOP, when it had full control of govt couldn't even repeal PBS funding. And you think they're going to repeal Obamacare? Yeah right." exactly...in theory, yes of course it could be repealed tomorrow. The house has voted to repeal it what 40 times or something? No way the Senate would actually do it if they had a real chance.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:18 AM (n/ogz)

58 Repealable? Unpossible!

Posted by: Chuck Todd at April 01, 2014 07:18 AM (tlBbB)

59 14 If 2 million people were insured under their parents' plans are allowed to stay insured by their parents, doesn't that mean they weren't actually uninsured in the first place?

Posted by: Tim at April 01, 2014 11:06 AM (v9lLY)


_________


It's more like they were on the plan until they turned 18 or 21, then kicked off and then with O-Care, they came back on at 22 or 23...that kind of thing.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:18 AM (0LHZx)

60 "tickling your uvula"

Posted by: Phrasing is not really a "thing" anymore at April 01, 2014 07:18 AM (gOoFi)

61 At least the troll took the time to bullet-point his trollery instead of just cutting and pasting from the Koz Kidz or the DUmmie Underground or whatnot. Let's give the troll a "C" for effort.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:19 AM (7ObY1)

62 So if your 23-y-o daughter is "on your coverage" and gets punished with a baby she refuses to abort for some unimaginable reason, does your grandbaby get to be "on your coverage" for 26 years, or is she fucked?

Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 07:19 AM (ZKzrr)

63 Nothing is "unrepealable".  It could be repealed if we had an opposition Party and a real MFM.

Posted by: Vic[/i] at April 01, 2014 07:19 AM (T2V/1)

64 Knock knock Who's there Babs's uvula Babs's uvula who?

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:20 AM (7ObY1)

65 Chuck Todd reported that there was a ray of sunshine in the recently-released Obamacare enrollment numbers but then Ronan Farrow announced that the ray had died.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at April 01, 2014 07:21 AM (tlBbB)

66 It's my mom and dad's responsibility as parents to keep me insured as long as possible. Maybe by 35, I'll be out of the onesie and ready to make it on my own.

Posted by: Chad Henderson - Cockjockey at April 01, 2014 07:21 AM (LSJmV)

67 And what if you're 23 and your mother's dead and your father's on Medicare?  Do you get Medicare?

Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 07:21 AM (ZKzrr)

68 "changing my G-string"

Posted by: Phrasing is not really a "thing" anymore at April 01, 2014 07:22 AM (gOoFi)

69 62 So if your 23-y-o daughter is "on your coverage" and gets punished with a baby she refuses to abort for some unimaginable reason, does your grandbaby get to be "on your coverage" for 26 years, or is she fucked? Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 11:19 AM (ZKzrr) Helloooooo Medicare. That would be my guess.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at April 01, 2014 07:22 AM (da5Wo)

70 62 HR, They probably both get thrown off or some foolishness..... It is all about Moloch

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:23 AM (TE35l)

71
Today the MFM is wall to wall non-stop what great success BarryCare has turned into. Millions have signed up, support is at all time highs, Republicans were wrong about it all along. It's so bad the North Korean media is embarrassed for them

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 01, 2014 07:23 AM (1Jaio)

72 So Obamacare is unrepealable at 6 years old, but the 2nd Amendment, at 400 years old (thanks, Jackson-Lee) is totally not entrenched enough in the American mindset.

Posted by: Washington Nearsider at April 01, 2014 07:23 AM (fwARV)

73 "Child of 26 can get the fuck out with the door locks changed behind them." Always my opinion as well... I'm only a few years older, but I work with a few people in this range, and they are all still riding out their parents plans. These are young white collar professionals who work for companies that offer a variety of different plans. It's bonus cash until the ripe old age of 26 sets in.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:23 AM (n/ogz)

74 Shit, there's neighborhoods where the 26-year-olds are grandmothers.

Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 07:23 AM (ZKzrr)

75 Child of 26 can get the fuck out with the door locks changed behind them. The 18 year old with the field pack climbing a ridgeline in Kandahar would like a word.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 01, 2014 07:23 AM (659DL)

76 >>Yep, I'm now paying 2x as much for shittier insurance from the exact same insurance company I had last year. Basically I'm $5k poorer every year going forward with zero benefit. Just fucking burn $5k. Posted by: Flatbush Joe I doubt that you will be 5K poorer every year going forward. Look for that number to increase every year. Another liberal success story.

Posted by: Aviator at April 01, 2014 07:24 AM (jSUU1)

77 69 BC1981, Likely Medicaid.... The nation is being ran by Gosnell's allies blessed wth Corky Thatcher's cunning....

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:24 AM (TE35l)

78   62 So if your 23-y-o daughter is "on your coverage" and gets punished with a baby she refuses to abort for some unimaginable reason, does your grandbaby get to be "on your coverage" for 26 years, or is she fucked?

Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 11:19 AM (ZKzrr)

 

SCHIP or Medicaid.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:24 AM (DrWcr)

79 BREAKING NEWS... MSNBC Reporter Chuck Todd raped and murdered by a gang of perverts.

Posted by: Ronan Farrow at April 01, 2014 07:24 AM (oFCZn)

80 Anything is possible, so certainly repeal of ACA is "possible". But the political reality is that the individual aspects of ACA (no policy denial for pre-existing conditions, no life time limit on coverage, dependents on family policy, medicaid expansion,etc.) are have overwhelming public support, with the exception of the individual mandate. So any future realistic Republican proposals will include those aspects of ACA or will fail. Talking about "repeal" is now just transparent manipulation of those portions of the Republican "base" who are so detached from reality that they swallow obvious BS unquestioningly. Switzerland and Taiwan have been running health care systems that are nearly identical to ACA for decades, while delivering better health care cheaper than the US. So conservatives had better figure out a better strategy than screaming "Obamacare is doomed to fail, so let's just sit around and wait for the inevitable". Look back at the last few months of predictions about ACA on this website and the wish fulfillment and attempts to manufacture an alternate reality rather than face facts are undeniable. And the estimates about percentage uninsured in the US did not depend on a single small sample poll, but a series of polls from 2 separate pollsters (head in the sand is a failing political strategy)."Rand has been polling 3,300 Americans monthly about their insurance choices since last fall. Researchers found that the share of adults ages 18 to 64 without health insurance has declined from 20.9% last fall to 16.6% as of March 22. The decrease parallels a similar drop recorded by Gallup, which found in its national polling that the uninsured rate among adults had declined from 18% in the final quarter of last year to 15.9% through the first two months of 2014. Gallup's overall uninsured rate is lower than Rand's because it includes seniors on Medicare.""

Posted by: TommyVee at April 01, 2014 07:25 AM (NdZgc)

81 "Allowing young people to stay on their parents plans." Such Orwellian language. "Mandating young people stay on their parents plans" is a better description. FWIW, MO had that regulation back in like 2006 or some such. (It might have been 25, but whatever, close enough.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at April 01, 2014 07:25 AM (HDwDg)

82 "do you want me to warm up your buns before I stick the weiners in?

Posted by: Phrasing is not really a "thing" anymore at April 01, 2014 07:25 AM (gOoFi)

83 Are stats on the number of people who've been cut-back to 30 hours per week or less included in any of the links?

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at April 01, 2014 07:25 AM (hn5v5)

84 It's almost as if "what's news" is just a synonym for "what advances the narrative chosen by the Democratic Party." The question that "news" operations like CNN may want to ask is, how many people are really interested in getting their news from party organs.

Posted by: Abe Lincoln at April 01, 2014 07:25 AM (e8kgV)

85 A snippet from the aforementioned troll:

Denying the obvious successes of ACA has become the new Unskewed Polls among reality-deniers.

Posted by: TommyVee at April 01, 2014 10:52 AM (NdZgc)



I'll take my chances with this one. The "skewed polls" have been bad for Zerocare and getting worse. 


Posted by: Biff Boffo at April 01, 2014 07:26 AM (YmPwQ)

86 You  know  what  really  can't  be  repealed?  Math  and  the  math  dooms  odumbass  care.

Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at April 01, 2014 07:26 AM (rXcBX)

87 I'll repeat this from yesterday...hold my beer. I can repeal this: "The law known as the Affordable Care Act is hereby repealed in its entirety." All I need is to get the right people to sign it. Easy peasy.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit [/i][/s][/b][/u] at April 01, 2014 07:26 AM (0HooB)

88 If adding someone ( a child to age 26) to an individual family plan, it must be underwritten and rated. If adding same to a small group plan, also underwritten, and group absorbs potentially higher rates depending on risk profile of additional insured. If adding to large group, community rated and whole group absorbs risk. However, I think it's safe to say that all principles of risk management and underwriting are being thrown out the window. Hence, SCOAMTTcare. Feature, not a bug. Single payer. Pay your fair share, H8ers.

Posted by: Justamom at April 01, 2014 07:26 AM (Sptt8)

89 This is all about motivating a Vocal minority, who they have bought off with Free or reduced health insurance. Its all about motivating the Free Shit Mob... (I have too much respect for the military to call them an army...).

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 07:27 AM (84gbM)

90 "I doubt that you will be 5K poorer every year going forward. Look for that number to increase every year. Another liberal success story. Posted by: Aviator at April 01, 2014 11:24 AM (jSUU1)" uggh... we had to move to an HDHP when I changed jobs at the end of 2012, had a kid 10 days after the deductible rolled over...that was a fun experience. Premiums went up 25% this year, so our company changed providers, max out of pocket doubled to the minimium ACA requirements, coverage about the same, and premiums were "only" up 10% as a result. Hopefully when we're ready for kid no 3 it can be arranged so we don't hit the deductible twice in the span of 10 days.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:27 AM (n/ogz)

91 Yep, I'm now paying 2x as much for shittier insurance from the exact same insurance company I had last year. Basically I'm $5k poorer every year going forward with zero benefit. Just fucking burn $5k. Posted by: Flatbush Joe
.........
But.. but.. They can't cancel your policy!  What if you get sick???

This is a perfect example of conservatism versus socialism.

The libtards will tell you with a straight face that you are better off because the policy is better, not shittier.. they know what is best for you, you know-nothing winger you.

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at April 01, 2014 07:27 AM (Z7PrM)

92 "polling the electorate"

Posted by: Phrasing is not really a "thing" anymore at April 01, 2014 07:27 AM (gOoFi)

93 Ah, speak of the devil. The irony of him calling us "reality deniers" is murderous.

Posted by: Biff Boffo at April 01, 2014 07:27 AM (YmPwQ)

94 This is one of those days where I look at the world around me and hate everything    and everyone in it.


(Except the HQ,     b/c you all be my peeps, yo)

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit (or Beth for short) [/u][/i][/s][/b] at April 01, 2014 07:28 AM (4df7R)

95 Article II, Section 2, Clause 4. He shall have the power, by advise and consent of his close personal staff to make innumerable modifications to laws duly passed by the Senate without their consent so long as his party controls said body and their future electoral prospects be imperiled by such laws and where such modifications remain modest.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at April 01, 2014 07:28 AM (HLprW)

96 89 Romeo13, We're about to repeal the REAL Army...so Free Shit Army can pick up the slack yo.....

Posted by: sven10077 at April 01, 2014 07:28 AM (TE35l)

97 This is all made up crapola like the federal budget, that federal tax code, the federal census and federal elections. They ran out of solutions long ago and now just keep lying until the bottom falls out.

Posted by: IrishEd at April 01, 2014 07:29 AM (D0NZx)

98 83 Are stats on the number of people who've been cut-back to 30 hours per week or less included in any of the links? Posted by: andycanuck at April 01, 2014 11:25 AM (hn5v5) We also do not have stats on how many people have dropped their Health Insurance because of the cost increases... My guess is that there are Less people who have health insurance now... than before it passed.

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 07:30 AM (84gbM)

99 SACRAMENTO (CBS13) — On the deadline to sign up for health coverage through Covered California, some hearing-impaired residents were sent to a chat line offering ‘hot ladiesÂ’ instead of an insurance navigator.

A page on the site where users can calculate the cost of coverage lists an incorrect phone number as 1-888-899-4500.





Take the red or blue pill while you wank it to phone sex

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 01, 2014 07:30 AM (1Jaio)

100 We're about to repeal the REAL Army...so Free Shit Army can pick up the slack yo.....


Real armies are sooo 19th century.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at April 01, 2014 07:30 AM (tlBbB)

101 All of this number analysis is bullshit. Just a few days ago they couldn't say how many people had signed up, now they know exactly how many and all their demographics? Cool story, bro.

Posted by: blaster at April 01, 2014 07:31 AM (4+AaH)

102 The post number 80 troll pulls the same lame shit with AGW. Lame equals lies times bullshit squared.

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 07:31 AM (AO9UG)

103 CNN NEWSFLASH: In an unprecedented, historic decision, Michelle Obama has announced her intention to vacation on the moon during the third week of July, 2014. "I mean, I've never been to the moon before," Mrs. Obama noted. "As an unprecedented, historic First Lady, I feel it is my duty to vacation on the moon." Mrs. Obama scoffed at the notion that taxpayers might balk at the 6 billion dollar price tag for the unprecedented, historic vacation to the moon. "I imagine it seems like a lot of money, but I'm bringing my daughters and my mother, so it's kind of a package deal" said the fabulously fit and toned First Lady. The White House has announced that there will be no press coverage of the unprecedented, historic moon trip.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:32 AM (7ObY1)

104 Child of 26 can get the fuck out with the door locks changed behind them. Posted by: Circa
...........
Oh, but wait.. the best part about his up to 26 coverage on the parent's plan?  They don't have to live with you!  The kid can live in another state even..  The insurer has to add them to the policy if you want them.

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at April 01, 2014 07:32 AM (Z7PrM)

105 This is all made up crapola like the federal budget, that federal tax code, the federal census and federal elections. They ran out of solutions long ago and now just keep lying until the bottom falls out. Faster please.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 01, 2014 07:32 AM (lUXJH)

106 Shouldn't these numbers be listed as health care created or saved?

Posted by: blaster at April 01, 2014 07:32 AM (4+AaH)

107 Is Jeff B. using a new nic?

Posted by: Countrysquire at April 01, 2014 07:32 AM (LSJmV)

108 Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 11:27 AM (n/ogz) When a REAL financial factor of when to have a child, is based on a Federal Law... We've got a slight problem with freedom here folks...

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 07:33 AM (84gbM)

109 Always my opinion as well... I'm only a few years older, but I work with a few people in this range, and they are all still riding out their parents plans. These are young white collar professionals who work for companies that offer a variety of different plans. It's bonus cash until the ripe old age of 26 sets in.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 11:23 AM (n/ogz)



Then it will be time for Carnival.


Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:33 AM (GQ8sn)

110 Oh, but wait.. the best part about his up to 26 coverage on the parent's plan? They don't have to live with you! The kid can live in another state even..

How?  You can't buy health insurance across state lines.  Shit, you can't even buy Obamacare policies across county lines.

Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 07:34 AM (ZKzrr)

111
To the extent he's got a point here (which I'm doubtful about; this is a Viral Meme Stunt to get MSNBC linked),

Past history would indicate that this is battlespace preperation for the fall elections.  If it can't be repealed, well then its just not an issue.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at April 01, 2014 07:34 AM (0Kobm)

112 "When a REAL financial factor of when to have a child, is based on a Federal Law... We've got a slight problem with freedom here folks... Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 11:33 AM (84gbM)" Goddamn right... that's why we have essentially said fuck it. As an oldschool Catholic, the kids come when they come, we can't afford them anyway. Hope we don't end up bankrupt.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:34 AM (n/ogz)

113 For those who missed my rant last night, I got my individual health ins renewal yesterday. In his benificense, the SCOAMTT deigned to let me keep my plan a while longer. 30% increase. $18,886/yr for me n two kiddos. Hubby on his own. I will never, ever be satisfied with any resolution to this fuckery. Not only do I see a nation too full of turds to turn it around, I doubt I'll ever get to see the chained-together circle of commies in orange jumpsuits hammering rocks as I envision.

Posted by: Justamom at April 01, 2014 07:35 AM (Sptt8)

114 The point of declaring it unrepeatable is to make all repeal talk appear to be EXTREME!!!! So conservatives who campaign on it will be painted as out of touch, anti woman, whatever works.

Posted by: blaster at April 01, 2014 07:36 AM (4+AaH)

115 "Then it will be time for Carnival. Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 11:33 AM (GQ8sn)" Is it Carnival or Carousel? I'm detecting an incredibly appropriate logan's run reference.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:36 AM (n/ogz)

116 Switzerland and Taiwan have been running health care systems that are nearly identical to ACA for decades, while delivering better health care cheaper than the US.
I'm guessing their websites work; their populations aren't analogous to the States; and they don't have problems with illegal aliens or a Free Shit Army. So adopt their immigration and citizenship laws and work ethic for the entire population and maybe it'll work. Are you suggesting those societal changes to make 0care work?

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at April 01, 2014 07:36 AM (hn5v5)

117 Unrepealable. DYAC!

Posted by: blaster at April 01, 2014 07:37 AM (4+AaH)

118 110 Oh, but wait.. the best part about his up to 26 coverage on the parent's plan? They don't have to live with you! The kid can live in another state even.. How? You can't buy health insurance across state lines. Shit, you can't even buy Obamacare policies across county lines. Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 11:34 AM (ZKzrr) My daughter is 25 and lives in MA. I live in CA and Obamacare has her on my insurance contract until age 26.

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 07:37 AM (AO9UG)

119 " I will never, ever be satisfied with any resolution to this fuckery. Not only do I see a nation too full of turds to turn it around, I doubt I'll ever get to see the chained-together circle of commies in orange jumpsuits hammering rocks as I envision. Posted by: Justamom at April 01, 2014 11:35 AM (Sptt " That was an incredibly depressing moment for me, a few weeks ago when we had our insurance presentation, and the insurance broker is trying to sell a 24K a year top level plan to admin staff who make $15 an hour. Good grief.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:37 AM (n/ogz)

120 What happens if it is repealed? Does the bureaucracy that was created just go away? How long will it take to go back to the old system? Are the insurance companies going to get reimbursed for their loses for implementing 404Care, and reverting back? We're pretty much f'd. Thank Chief Justice, we f'd up, we trusted you!

Posted by: Travis McGee at April 01, 2014 07:37 AM (Ph479)

121 Posted by: TommyVee at April 01, 2014 11:25 AM (NdZgc)

_______

Math is hard for libtards so I'll break it down really simple like:

5 million lost their plans

6 million have signed up

That's a net increase of 1 million people. Out of 275M adults in the country. Only an imbecile or a liberal (but there I go repeating myself) thinks 1/275 means a 30% increase in the number of people with insurance.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:38 AM (0LHZx)

122 Switzerland and Taiwan have been running health care systems that are nearly identical to ACA for decades, while delivering better health care cheaper than the US. I'm guessing their websites work; their populations aren't analogous to the States; and they don't have problems with illegal aliens or a Free Shit Army. And a 50%+ tax rate.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 01, 2014 07:38 AM (lUXJH)

123 There are two parts to healthcare in my mind - everyday and catastrophic. Let's start with everyday medical care. When I get sick, I don't want to go to the doctor's office. I want an advanced degree nurse to come to my house, carefully listen to what my symtoms are, look at the environmental factors that may be in play, know my family medical history, take all my vitals, draw blood and anything else needed for tests and then to use all that information to recommend either seeing a doctor or not. If I am to see a doctor, I want the nurse to use all the information gained from looking and listening to me to convey that to a specialist in medical language quickly and accurately. From there, the doctor can either schedule an appointment or order specialized tests which can be completed before an office visit. In my ideal scenario, the advanced degree nurse would be an independent agent or tied in some type of arrangement with a local pharmacist/pharmacy chain. Between the two, they would be the repository for my medical records with the electronic ability to send whatever is necessary to any specialist/facility. The nurse would be on some sort of retainer/year along with a per use charge paid from a HSA. All free market, no government or insurance company involvement. This portion can be enacted with deregulation.

Posted by: jwest at April 01, 2014 07:38 AM (u2a4R)

124 In an unprecedented, historic decision, Michelle Obama has announced her intention to vacation on the moon during the third week of July, 2014.

Posted by: Citizen X
.........
That can't be true.  I read the front page of The National Inquirer in the checkout line last night and it said the Mooch is leaving Baracka..

http://tinyurl.com/mn7yc5m

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at April 01, 2014 07:38 AM (Z7PrM)

125 You  get  First  Cow  out  of  China.  She  eat  whole  buffet,  we  go  broke.  No  more  "all  you  can  eat"  with  the  great  cow  of  the  west  in  China.  You  take  her  home  now,  round-eyes.

Posted by: Sum Ting Wong at April 01, 2014 07:38 AM (rXcBX)

126 Garry Kasparov ✔ @Kasparov63 Follow

Perhaps Obama told Putin he could keep Crimea if he signed up for Obamacare.

11:21 PM - 31 Mar 2014

Posted by: Bobby Fischer at April 01, 2014 07:39 AM (e8kgV)

127 Is it Carnival or Carousel? I'm detecting an incredibly appropriate logan's run reference.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 11:36 AM (n/ogz)



Shit.  Carousel.   I was looking at Carnival pics yesterday when I read the Brazilian rape story.



Yes.  Carousel.  My oldest stepson is turing 26 this weekend and he will be off our family plan.  He has health issues and requires medication for the rest of this life.  We're not sure if he will be able to purchase the same meds at the heavily discounted price he/we pay currently in the future.  Maybe?  I don't know.  He cannot afford the bronze level plan either (even with subsidies), and the deductible level is too high to be of any real benefit to him. 

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:40 AM (GQ8sn)

128 That can't be true. I read the front page of The National Inquirer in the checkout line last night and it said the Mooch is leaving Baracka.. http://tinyurl.com/mn7yc5m Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at April 01, 2014 11:38 AM (Z7PrM) Nah..... they can both be true.... To the Moon! Alice!

Posted by: Ralph Cramden, Environmental Engineer! at April 01, 2014 07:40 AM (84gbM)

129 Switzerland and Taiwan have a combined population of 30 million and bring new meaning to the term "homogenous." Try again, jackass.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 01, 2014 07:40 AM (659DL)

130 Perhaps Obama told Putin he could keep Crimea if he signed up for Obamacare.



PWNED!


Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:40 AM (GQ8sn)

131 And a 50%+ tax rate.

******

And infinitesimal defense spending because the Great Satan has their backs.

Posted by: Bob at April 01, 2014 07:40 AM (vgIRn)

132 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 01, 2014 11:23 AM (659DL) I was actually on my parents plan until I was 25. Granted, I tried to get off several times. I had my own insurance (provided via my employer.) I guess the company was so afraid of the regulations here, they basically refused to remove any kids until they aged out because they didn't want to deal with the paperwork of putting them back on. (The plan my parents were on had no extra charges after kid #2.) Dad actually tried to remove me twice, and I kept getting "automatically added" back on and I'd get the new card. I never tried to use it, because I'm sure they wouldn't have paid out. But there's a weird case for you. (At the time, this was pre-Ocare, marriage would have ended my eligibility as well, but I turned 25 before getting married, which was the magic age back then.)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at April 01, 2014 07:41 AM (HDwDg)

133 That can't be true. I read the front page of The National Inquirer in the checkout line last night and it said the Mooch is leaving Baracka..



Well DUH.  She's leaving Barack and moving TO THE MOON.  

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit (or Beth for short) [/u][/i][/s][/b] at April 01, 2014 07:41 AM (4df7R)

134 All free market, no government or insurance company involvement. This portion can be enacted with deregulation. Posted by: jwest
............
But.. but.. if you're a woman, it's all free, right?  Right, you eff'n mysoginist!

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at April 01, 2014 07:41 AM (Z7PrM)

135 It's always nice when there mere sight of a nic results in saving me some reading time.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at April 01, 2014 07:41 AM (HLprW)

136 Well DUH. She's leaving Barack and moving TO THE MOON.
Posted by: MWR
....
Aha!

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at April 01, 2014 07:42 AM (Z7PrM)

137 Someone posted at another site thT the employer mandate will be restricted to employees only - not their family members Anyone know if this is true? I'll have to get the rest of my family on the gov exchanges? Subsidize the Katrina sitters even more?

Posted by: Avi at April 01, 2014 07:42 AM (d7KJD)

138

All free market, no government or insurance company involvement. This portion can be enacted with deregulation.

 

 

And $25,000 vouchers.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:42 AM (DrWcr)

139 Don't make me go Liriope Fields on your asses again.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at April 01, 2014 07:42 AM (bXjEo)

140 Obama signed an executive order allowing Russian soldiers to sign up. That's how he hit the magic 7 million number.

Posted by: Bobby Fischer at April 01, 2014 07:43 AM (e8kgV)

141 6 million have signed up Half of those are Medicaid expansion and I will not be sucked into the abyss of counting THAT as signing up.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 01, 2014 07:43 AM (659DL)

142 TommyVee, while obviously an OFA shill does have a point in that parts of Obamacare do poll well.Every poll taken since 2010 has shown 70% support for not denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions. We all know that insurance cannot work that way. But politically speaking, it doesn't matter, that aspect of O-Care will never be done away with.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:44 AM (0LHZx)

143 Weren't the Swiss just voting for a universal basic income?

Posted by: Burn the Witch at April 01, 2014 07:44 AM (HLprW)

144 Weren't the Swiss just voting for a universal basic income?


Denmark.


The story featured a Danish hobo living off of state bennies for the last decade.

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:45 AM (GQ8sn)

145 There's no length the gibbering fucktards of the Left won't go to to defend Obamacare. Literally stripping millions of families of their health care choices, watching hundreds of thousands having their work weeks shortened, their life plans curtailed, based on an eight foot stack of paper that they acknowledge they Never Fucking Read before imposing it onto the best health care system in the world. Eat shit and die, fascist idiots.

Posted by: Lincolntf at April 01, 2014 07:45 AM (ZshNr)

146 141 6 million have signed up

Half of those are Medicaid expansion and I will not be sucked into the abyss of counting THAT as signing up.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 01, 2014 11:43 AM (659DL)


____________


For the purposes of counting who has and who doesn't have insurance, Medicaid counts as "has". I don't like it, but I can't change reality either.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:45 AM (0LHZx)

147 How? You can't buy health insurance across state lines. Shit, you can't even buy Obamacare policies across county lines. Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 11:34 AM (ZKzrr) Easy: the owner of the insurance lives in the state, it's benefits just include a submember. Interesting point though: In MO prior to Obamacare marriage ended the eligibility to stay on your parents plan regardless of age. But Obamacare changes that. You seriously could have a married couple still on their respective parents coverage. How fucked up is that?

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at April 01, 2014 07:45 AM (HDwDg)

148 Half of those are Medicaid expansion and I will not be sucked into the abyss of counting THAT as signing up.


How can you ignore new medicaid signups when Obama counts putting record numbers of people on welfare as his signature domestic achievement.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at April 01, 2014 07:46 AM (tlBbB)

149 And a 50%+ tax rate.
I don't know anything about Taiwan's social programmes or tax system so I decided to leave those items out but that's right about Euros and Canada etc. where to pay for the systems they have to tax the crap out of anyone with a job to pay for everything and not putting the major share on mainly the top 5% as in the States.

Ace pointed out quite a while ago that even if the Feds took every single dollar from the top 1% every year that it would only cover the current annual deficits. If you want to pay for everything, you have to take a crapload from everybody to make it work even the FSA through a VAT that they can't avoid and that they only get reimbursed for a percentage of.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at April 01, 2014 07:46 AM (hn5v5)

150 3 threads ago:

Just wait
When cutler is holding the Super Bowl MVP trophy I will be savoring the sweet sweet tears of all the H8Rs

Followed by NCWife slapping you awake for concussion protocol since a cab hit you.

Posted by: The Trident of Love (D5 not Maserati)[/i][/b][/s] at April 01, 2014 07:46 AM (DL2i+)

151 Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 11:38 AM (0LHZx) the problem is that the 5 Million who lost health insurance stat is probably too low... For some reason the Insurance industry, who DOES have those exact numbers, are either not being asked, or are not forthcoming, with those numbers. and HHS is purposely not giving out any hard numbers.... which they would ALSO have.... or could easily get from the Health insurance companies. We should have hard data on all this.... that we DON'T... tells me the numbers are much worse than they want to talk about.

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 07:47 AM (84gbM)

152 Researchers found that the share of adults ages 18 to 64 without health insurance has declined from 20.9% last fall to 16.6% as of March 22.

Yeah, and you know why the rate was at 20.9% last fall, d!pSh!t. That's when people got tossed off of their old plans, which jacked up that percentage. You f'ing lying corksuckers are really something. This is the same pathetic crap when they said the rate of premium increase came in lower than their own estimates.

Posted by: Travis McGee at April 01, 2014 07:47 AM (Ph479)

153 "Yes. Carousel. My oldest stepson is turing 26 this weekend and he will be off our family plan. He has health issues and requires medication for the rest of this life. We're not sure if he will be able to purchase the same meds at the heavily discounted price he/we pay currently in the future. Maybe? I don't know. He cannot afford the bronze level plan either (even with subsidies), and the deductible level is too high to be of any real benefit to him. Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 11:40 AM (GQ8sn)" Good luck to him... it's amazing how things have changed in just the 12 years since I entered the workforce from college. Started with a firm that offered premo top shelf plans, zero out of pocket for the employees. Now I'm in a shitty HDHP plan because it's all we can realisitcally afford and my 401K contributions have been diverted to an HSA to be able to pay the deductibles. So not only are we barely avoiding being crippled by medical premiums, our retirement is now being affected (ha... I know I will never retire and probably die at a desk, 401K's will be seized in the near future anyway). And I make a decent living as an engineer... I don't know how those less fortunate than us can manage.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:47 AM (n/ogz)

154 Weren't the Swiss just voting for a universal basic income?

__________

The vote hasn't happened yet. It's set for May. And pretty much nobody thinks it has a snowball's chance of passing.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:47 AM (0LHZx)

155 Every once in awhile I refresh the HQ and when I click in this here box a new tab pops up with an ad. Anyone else get that?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 01, 2014 07:48 AM (oFCZn)

156 The Swiss also voted on a proposal to limit a CEO's salary to 12X the salary of the lowest paid employee....FAILED.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:48 AM (0LHZx)

157 All of this number analysis is bullshit. Just a few days ago they couldn't say how many people had signed up, now they know exactly how many and all their demographics? Cool story, bro. Posted by: blaster at April 01, 2014 11:31 AM (4+AaH) Exactly. Obviously, if the Times has all these numbers, the House Committee members should call up the Times Editor instead of Kathleen Sebelius to get the signup numbers that she is clueless about.

Posted by: Jen at April 01, 2014 07:49 AM (IdGqX)

158 >>residentswere sent to a chat lineoffering ‘hot ladies’ instead of an insurance navigator. Whores are whores no matter what you call them.

Posted by: Aviator at April 01, 2014 07:49 AM (jSUU1)

159 Obamacare is here to stay only as a tax increase.

Posted by: SH at April 01, 2014 07:49 AM (gmeXX)

160
Ace pointed out quite a while ago that even if the Feds took every single dollar from the top 1% every year that it would only cover the current annual deficits.



The Fed would be only able to that ONCE.

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:49 AM (GQ8sn)

161 Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at April 01, 2014 11:45 AM (HDwDg) Uh.... not all Health insurance companies are National... Not all health insurance companies would even have a presence.... like Doctors... in that other State...

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 07:49 AM (84gbM)

162 The Under 26 part of the equation is going to blow up soon when Mommy and Daddy lose their employer provided insurance. Then the whole family can experience the horror that is Obamacare.

Posted by: Lauren at April 01, 2014 07:50 AM (hFL/3)

163 Besides paying twice what we were paying over a year ago we now get "superior coverage" as my Brother and Sister In-Law are so fond of telling me. I never knew I had shit coverage before.

But yeah, the maternity is great - and I'm especially psyched about the pediatric vision care.

These are things every childless couple in their mid-fifties should have, right?

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at April 01, 2014 07:50 AM (pgQxn)

164
the problem is that the 5 Million who lost health insurance stat is probably too low...

For some reason the Insurance industry, who DOES have those exact numbers, are either not being asked, or are not forthcoming, with those numbers.

and HHS is purposely not giving out any hard numbers.... which they would ALSO have.... or could easily get from the Health insurance companies.

We should have hard data on all this.... that we DON'T... tells me the numbers are much worse than they want to talk about.

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 11:47 AM (84gbM)


____________


I don't think it's much higher than 5M. The individual insurance market is pretty small, only about 15% of the entire market. So 5M people losing insurance is a lot considering there were only 10M or so policies to begin with. So a 50% cancellation rate for Obamacare sounds about right to me.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:50 AM (0LHZx)

165 Every once in awhile I refresh the HQ and when I click in this here box a new tab pops up with an ad. Anyone else get that?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 01, 2014 11:48 AM (oFCZn)



Adblock.

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:50 AM (GQ8sn)

166 Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 11:49 AM (84gbM) Well they say you have to cover them, they don't say you have to provide a network. (Don't give them any ideas!)

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at April 01, 2014 07:50 AM (HDwDg)

167 160
Ace pointed out quite a while ago that even if the Feds took every
single dollar from the top 1% every year that it would only cover the
current annual deficits.



The Fed would be only able to that ONCE.

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 11:49 AM (GQ8sn)

 

All the Fed needs to do is print more money!

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:51 AM (DrWcr)

168 When cutler is holding the Super Bowl MVP trophy

In 2042, at his son-in-law Marshall Manning's house.

Posted by: HR at April 01, 2014 07:51 AM (ZKzrr)

169 The Under 26 part of the equation is going to blow up soon when Mommy and Daddy lose their employer provided insurance.


Then the whole family can experience the horror that is Obamacare.

Posted by: Lauren at April 01, 2014 11:50 AM (hFL/3)



THIS.


I keep telling my wife, it's only a matter of time before we are dumped from our company coverage and forced onto the exchange. 

Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 07:51 AM (GQ8sn)

170 My fear is the US is going to be stuck with this for a while as Republicans will demand 100% repeal or nothing (which makes sense) and if Hillary is elected, she's won't agree to 100% repeal, she'll want all the goodies to stay.

So the law is with us at least another 6 years, maybe 8 if she's reelected,  enough time for the entire private health care market to completely implode and everyone to be on MediCaid.

Meanwhile, I'm looking into some sort of Health Care Sharing Ministry exchange because I'm not going to want to be making a mortgage payment for my healthcare for the next 8 years as I'm self-employed with a family.


Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 07:52 AM (LBPyR)

171 Amazon just delivered my copy of Greg Gutfeld's book NOT COOL. Can't wait to get home and start reading it, I heard it's good.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 01, 2014 07:52 AM (7ObY1)

172 You know, when I had a company in the mid-eighties and for many years, all of our employees had full medical coverage. We gave them their choice of PPO's. It was easy. We felt like shit when we had to pull dental.

All I can say is thank you Ted. Your filthy ghost continues to sodomize America in ways you could only dream.

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at April 01, 2014 07:52 AM (pgQxn)

173 "THIS. I keep telling my wife, it's only a matter of time before we are dumped from our company coverage and forced onto the exchange. Posted by: EC at April 01, 2014 11:51 AM (GQ8sn)" Same here...I expected it this year, but the illegal delay. It's coming though.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:52 AM (n/ogz)

174 Posted by: Lauren at April 01, 2014 11:50 AM (hFL/3) So how long until we not only mandate that plans cover kids up until they're 26, but also mandate that the parents buy said coverage.

Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) (No Really!) at April 01, 2014 07:53 AM (HDwDg)

175 TommyVee, while obviously an OFA shill does have a point in that parts of Obamacare do poll well.Every poll taken since 2010 has shown 70% support for not denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions. We all know that insurance cannot work that way. But politically speaking, it doesn't matter, that aspect of O-Care will never be done away with.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 11:44 AM (0LHZx)



Yes, it polls well, and there are ways to make it work.   High risk pools for individuals with pre-existing conditions has been on the table as a solution to that issue for a long time.   There's no reason to keep Obammycare to preserve the pre-existing condition   elements of the law   when it can be handled    separately   and in a way that doesn't   bankrupt the rest of the frigging country.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit (or Beth for short) [/u][/i][/s][/b] at April 01, 2014 07:53 AM (4df7R)

176 Last week I posted here that my plan in the not so distant future is only work part time make enough to live OK with my savings but also make below the threshold of being "poor" and getting every fucking welfare benefit under the sky.

I was ripped apart for that. Reading news stories today about how 80% of Obamacare sign ups are getting subsidies, just makes me want to accelerate my plan. I'm tired of being the sucker in the room who works and pays taxes while everyone else sits on their ass and collects those taxes.


Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:53 AM (0LHZx)

177 " don't think it's much higher than 5M. The individual insurance market is pretty small, only about 15% of the entire market. " It wasn't just people on the individual market. We had our insurance through my husband's employer. Canceled. Didn't meet the guidelines.

Posted by: Lauren at April 01, 2014 07:53 AM (hFL/3)

178 177 " don't think it's much higher than 5M. The individual insurance market is pretty small, only about 15% of the entire market. "

It wasn't just people on the individual market. We had our insurance through my husband's employer. Canceled. Didn't meet the guidelines.

Posted by: Lauren at April 01, 2014 11:53 AM (hFL/3)

 

And it's only going to get worse.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:54 AM (DrWcr)

179 Researchers found that the share of adults ages 18 to 64 without health insurance has declined from 20.9% last fall to 16.6% as of March 22. Ummmm.... that would meant that (counts on his fingers)... 4.3% MORE people have health insurance??? That's about 10 million more people covered? I would have to see the stats on that one... and who did that 'study'....

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 07:54 AM (84gbM)

180 My fear is the US is going to be stuck with this for a while as Republicans will demand 100% repeal or nothing (which makes sense) and if Hillary is elected, she's won't agree to 100% repeal, she'll want all the goodies to stay. ----- Through waivers, incompetence, court rulings, and market dynamics, Obamacare is already being repealed - just slowly. I hope it gets repealed in its entirety, though I doubt that will happen (not because it doesn't have popular support, but because the GOP doesn't want that). However, in the end, all that will really be left of Obamacare will be the tax increases that were passed as part of it.

Posted by: SH at April 01, 2014 07:55 AM (gmeXX)

181 "eating out"

Posted by: Phrasing is not really a "thing" anymore at April 01, 2014 07:55 AM (gOoFi)

182 Yes, it polls well, and there are ways to make it work. High risk pools for individuals with pre-existing conditions has been on the table as a solution to that issue for a long time. There's no reason to keep Obammycare to preserve the pre-existing condition elements of the law when it can be handled separately and in a way that doesn't bankrupt the rest of the frigging country.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit (or Beth for short) at April 01, 2014 11:53 AM (4df7R)


_________


True. But good luck explaining a high risk pool to an LIV vs a liberal's scream of THEY WANT TO KICK YOU OFF YOUR INSURANCE BECAUSE YOU'RE SICK.


This is the problem the right has about most issues. We use logic and facts to present an idea. The left uses a bumper sticker slogan. We treat the country like adults, they treat the country like 5 years olds. And sadly, the country's emotional state right now is that of a 5 year old and bumper sticker slogans always win out.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:55 AM (0LHZx)

183 Switzerland and Taiwan have been running health care systems that are nearly identical to ACA for decades, while delivering better health care cheaper than the US. I'm guessing their websites work; their populations aren't analogous to the States; and they don't have problems with illegal aliens or a Free Shit Army. And a 50%+ tax rate. Posted by: rickb223 at April 01, 2014 11:38 AM (lUXJH) That must be why we hear about foreign Heads of State, Arab sheiks, etc. all going to Taiwan to have brain surgery, cancer treatment, etc. Then Switzerland if Taiwan is too busy. Cuba is third on the list.

Posted by: Jen at April 01, 2014 07:55 AM (IdGqX)

184 "176 Last week I posted here that my plan in the not so distant future is only work part time make enough to live OK with my savings but also make below the threshold of being "poor" and getting every fucking welfare benefit under the sky. I was ripped apart for that. Reading news stories today about how 80% of Obamacare sign ups are getting subsidies, just makes me want to accelerate my plan. I'm tired of being the sucker in the room who works and pays taxes while everyone else sits on their ass and collects those taxes. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 11:53 AM (0LHZx)" My dream plan is to get a civil divorce from my wife and put her on public assistance. Our Church wedding is all that matters to us, the rest is just book keeping for the state. She is a stay at home mom, so she would be destitute essentially, I'll happily continue to pay the mortgage and child support or whatever. Just more book keeping.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 07:56 AM (n/ogz)

185 Six million huh? I thought just yesterday they were touting eight million?

Posted by: Mr. Dave at April 01, 2014 07:56 AM (n+8FE)

186
However, in the end, all that will really be left of Obamacare will be the tax increases that were passed as part of it.

Posted by: SH at April 01, 2014 11:55 AM (gmeXX)


________


But those only affect "THE RICH" so don't worry about it.

 - MSNBC

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:56 AM (0LHZx)

187 185 Six million huh? I thought just yesterday they were touting eight million?

Posted by: Mr. Dave at April 01, 2014 11:56 AM (n+8FE)

 

9.5 million

Posted by: Insomniac at April 01, 2014 07:57 AM (DrWcr)

188 True. But good luck explaining a high risk pool to an LIV vs a liberal's scream of THEY WANT TO KICK YOU OFF YOUR INSURANCE BECAUSE YOU'RE SICK.
This is the problem the right has about most issues. We use logic and facts to present an idea. The left uses a bumper sticker slogan. We treat the country like adults, they treat the country like 5 years olds. And sadly, the country's emotional state right now is that of a 5 year old and bumper sticker slogans always win out.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 11:55 AM (0LHZx)



I agree.   Which is why we have to get our logic and our facts into bumper sticker format.  


"SICK AND DYING?   BLAME A DEMOCRAT."


"CAN'T AFFORD A DOCTOR?  BLAME A DEMOCRAT."

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Bossy Assault Hobbit (or Beth for short) [/u][/i][/s][/b] at April 01, 2014 07:57 AM (4df7R)

189 Six million huh? I thought just yesterday they were touting eight million?

Yeah? So what's the big deal?

Posted by: The guy who lubes the wheels on the goal-post at April 01, 2014 07:57 AM (pgQxn)

190 Coming soon to Ace of Spades, TommyVee defending GM as the greatest success story of the Age of Obama in the nood.

Posted by: [/i]andycanuck[/b] at April 01, 2014 07:57 AM (hn5v5)

191 Nood people

Posted by: Burn the Witch at April 01, 2014 07:57 AM (HLprW)

192 Lesson 1: Any "comprehensive" fix is sure to fail Lesson 2: When you get an urge to do something "comprehensive", see lesson 1

Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 01, 2014 07:58 AM (t3UFN)

193 Unrepealable!

Posted by: Vizzini at April 01, 2014 07:58 AM (nETTa)

194
My dream plan is to get a civil divorce from my wife and put her on public assistance. Our Church wedding is all that matters to us, the rest is just book keeping for the state. She is a stay at home mom, so she would be destitute essentially, I'll happily continue to pay the mortgage and child support or whatever. Just more book keeping.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 11:56 AM (n/ogz)


____


I've proposed that to the mrs as well. And while she's all for fucking over the govt, she's not going there.


But it would be the best situation. Mom on welfare with kids, KA-CHING!! Plus you still get the tax deductions for the kids. It's WIN-WIN-WIN for everyone.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 07:58 AM (0LHZx)

195 Hilarious-- it's unrepealable because most of it was never actually passed by Congress.  It's fucking chaos.  How can anyone rely on "law" when somebody made it up on the fly to begin with?  These idiots in the propaganda department are declaring it all "settled science" only because what the else are you going to say?

Posted by: MTF at April 01, 2014 08:00 AM (LISuA)

196 2 million people?  Fuck 'em.  They are the reason everything is so screwed up now.  All for them.

The economy's weakness.

More people uninsured.

The loss of medical research and innovation.

More healthcare denied to patients.

Insurance premiums skyrocketing.

Unemployment staying high and going higher.

Millions of good healthcare insurance plans cancelled and outlawed.

Fucking up all of that for a relatively small number of people who supposedly can't buy insurance without the government "helping"?  Not worth it.

Posted by: Dang at April 01, 2014 08:01 AM (MNq6o)

197 I actually went to the ER in Paris about 10 years ago. I woke up with a raging headache, pain I had no experienced before, on a Sunday morning, so the ER was really my only option.

The experience was pretty smooth. I had a nasty sinus infection, got some meds, and off I went. I purchased travel insurance and it was all covered, so I don't know what the actual cost was.

I was a little pissed though that the nurse, while a fluent English speaker, nonetheless tried to get me to speak French to her. I speak passable French, but when my head feels like it's about to explode last thing I want to do is converse in a foreign language. The doctor - an Arab - took one look at me and went straight to Anglais, which I appreciated.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 08:03 AM (0LHZx)

198 How about the taxpayers get to barge into the apartment or house belonging to a freeloader and take all their shit? After all, the taxpayers paid for it and the freeloaders openly admit they jacked it. Or is freeloading okay just because it is legal?

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 08:04 AM (AO9UG)

199 We can't repeal that whole "right to own slaves" thing.  People bought slaves. Unrepealable.

Posted by: Dang at April 01, 2014 08:04 AM (MNq6o)

200 I don't think it's much higher than 5M. The individual insurance market is pretty small, only about 15% of the entire market. So 5M people losing insurance is a lot considering there were only 10M or so policies to begin with. So a 50% cancellation rate for Obamacare sounds about right to me. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 11:50 AM (0LHZx) Problem is that the premium increase is already hitting Companies.... not just the individual market. My Girl friend is a case in point. She works for a California School district as an Administrator. She is given a 'choice' of healthcare plans to select from. She chose to be on Anthem Blue Cross... her 'plan' was cancelled, and the new plan (which is the same as the old plan) now costs 30% more.... She is in the 'sweet' spot.... where she makes too much money for a subsidy... and that 30% increase is just not in the budget with house payments and everything else... Soo.... this healthy Lady, no longer has health insurance... And I guarantee... she is not alone in making that choice.

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 01, 2014 08:05 AM (84gbM)

201 Women. Can't. Vote. That's just the law, people. Deal with it.

Posted by: Unrepealable!!! at April 01, 2014 08:05 AM (ZPrif)

202 It's delusional to think conservatives can ignore the preexisting condition problem and simply say "tough shit" and that's going to sell at the ballot box.  If you want Obamacare to stay, you'll flip the bird at any sort of alternative solution.  That will be the battle cry from the Left and it will resonate if we don't have something.  Some sort of high risk pool is going to need to be created. 

I would rather have a health care system where the overwhelming majority use private health insurance and a small amount have some sort of assistance as opposed to the Democrats solution of everyone being on a government health care plan because a small percentage truly can't afford health insurance.

Health care is never going to be some sort of pure free market, it's going to be something closer to education.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:06 AM (LBPyR)

203 You wanna vote? Then buy some real property. It's the law, ok? Just the way it is.

Posted by: Unrepealable!!! at April 01, 2014 08:06 AM (ZPrif)

204 "I've proposed that to the mrs as well. And while she's all for fucking over the govt, she's not going there. But it would be the best situation. Mom on welfare with kids, KA-CHING!! Plus you still get the tax deductions for the kids. It's WIN-WIN-WIN for everyone. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 01, 2014 11:58 AM (0LHZx)" I think my wife thinks I am kidding, but I am really being dead serious with this. She can sign up for food stamps, WIC, all sorts of stuff. The possibilities are endless. A simple sleight of hand, that would vastly improve our quality of life. With the way the country is headed, I see really no downside, it helps move the "let it burn" agenda forward.

Posted by: Dr. Shatterhand at April 01, 2014 08:07 AM (n/ogz)

205 Health care is never going to be some sort of pure free market, it's going to be something closer to education. Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:06 PM (LBPyR) Crap squared. The Market can provide any product and any service. All it asks is the price set itself naturally. Private charity can help, if needed.

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 08:08 AM (AO9UG)

206 Health care is never going to be some sort of pure free market, it's going to be something closer to education.

You mean the hospitals will be a smoking ruin, and we'll take care of our own kids at home with garage-sale editions of Encyclopaedia Britannica? Because that's closer to education, and right now, that's not looking so bad.

So long as every single one of them is heels-up on a lamppost, I'm willing to try doing my own appendectomy.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at April 01, 2014 08:17 AM (xq1UY)

207 "The health-care law is here is to stay. More than 6 million have now enrolled in a health-care plan under the federal and state exchanges, which is up from a mere 100,000 back in October" Just like all the old insurance system is "here to stay" and can't be changed (by, oh, obamacare) because 300 million people used it? Someone needs a beating with the Logic Bat.

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:18 AM (x3YFz)

208 Health care is never going to be some sort of pure free market, it's going to be something closer to education. Considering the state of education, that's not a good thing.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at April 01, 2014 08:20 AM (naUcP)

209 Crap squared.

The Market can provide any product and any service.

All it asks is the price set itself naturally.

Private charity can help, if needed.
Posted by: eman


"Hopefully someone will feel sorry for you and give you free money" is not a health care solution any more than ObamaCare is. 

If Republicans campaign on "charity" to be the solution for preexisting conditions, we're never going to get rid of it.

There will never be 100% pure free market health care in this country.  Period.  Just like there will never be 100% private education. 

What conservatives can do is find ways to point as many people as possible out of a public system.  Push MediCaid to the states like welfare reform.  It's not going to all be fixed overnight.


Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:22 AM (LBPyR)

210 208 Health care is never going to be some sort of pure free market, it's going to be something closer to education.

Considering the state of education, that's not a good thing. Posted by: Brother Cavil

My point was not that public education was a good thing, it was that a conservative solution to public education is not simply closing down all schools, it's a voucher system.

A voucher system is not a pure, free market solution.  A pure, free market solution would be zero funding for public schools and parents pay all of their kids education expenses out of pocket.  Good luck campaigning on that.

Despite vouchers not being a pure free market solution, it would be an enormous step in the right direction.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:26 AM (LBPyR)

211 Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:22 PM (LBPyR) No. Eliminate all government interference in health care. The market will produce a highly functional and worthy collection of products and services (that's what health care is) at affordable prices. Charity can fill the gaps.

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 08:28 AM (AO9UG)

212 A voucher system is not a pure, free market solution. A pure, free market solution would be zero funding for public schools and parents pay all of their kids education expenses out of pocket. Good luck campaigning on that. Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:26 PM (LBPyR) The campaign isn't the question. The question is how a market would behave. If education were privatized, teachers and schools would evolve around what's affordable for the consumer and profitable for the provider, like everything else.

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:32 AM (x3YFz)

213
Eliminate all government interference in health care.

The market will produce a highly functional and worthy collection of products and services (that's what health care is) at affordable prices.

Charity can fill the gaps.

Posted by: eman

How do you win elections on a platform of scrapping MediCare? 
To me, theoretical free market solutions are meaningless if they only serve to elect more Democrats. 

And you tell millions of senior citizens you're getting rid of their health care, and Democrats will start racking up 50 state landslides.

I agree that more free market solutions would bring down the cost of health care, but that has to be reconciled with political reality.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:34 AM (LBPyR)

214 Charity can fill the gaps. Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 12:28 PM (AO9UG) Most people, if asked to choose while they are working and have an income, if they would rather have a totally free market system and rely on charity for catastrophic healthcare if they were in a position where they had no money or if they would rather pay into a "social insurance" system now that would guarantee them some form of care, they would pick the later.

Posted by: jwest at April 01, 2014 08:35 AM (u2a4R)

215 Most people, if asked to choose while they are working and have an income, if they would rather have a totally free market system and rely on charity for catastrophic healthcare if they were in a position where they had no money or if they would rather pay into a "social insurance" system now that would guarantee them some form of care, they would pick the later. Posted by: jwest at April 01, 2014 12:35 PM (u2a4R) citation? Proof?

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:37 AM (x3YFz)

216 The campaign isn't the question.

The question is how a market would behave. If education were privatized, teachers and schools would evolve around what's affordable for the consumer and profitable for the provider, like everything else.

Posted by: tangonine

The campaign is the question if you're interested in actually seeing these problems solved rather than just having intellectual arguments among like-minded people.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:37 AM (LBPyR)

217 215 Most people, if asked to choose while they are working and have an income, if they would rather have a totally free market system and rely on charity for catastrophic healthcare if they were in a position where they had no money or if they would rather pay into a "social insurance" system now that would guarantee them some form of care, they would pick the later.

Posted by: jwest at April 01, 2014 12:35 PM (u2a4R)

citation? Proof? Posted by: tangonine

That's just common sense if you know human nature. 

Have you even been given large amounts of money  in assistance (as in hundreds of thousands of dollars) purely from the kindness of strangers?

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:41 AM (LBPyR)

218 That's just common sense if you know human nature. Have you even been given large amounts of money in assistance (as in hundreds of thousands of dollars) purely from the kindness of strangers? Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:41 PM (LBPyR) uh. No. The word "most" means "a majority" anecdotal evidence presented in a declarative statement as fact is a sign of lazy thinking.

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:45 AM (x3YFz)

219 Can we please STOP calling it "letting under 26 stay..." It is government FORCING private business to treat 26yos as children. And that sums up a whole hell of a lot of things on the left, don't you think?

Posted by: Tonic Dog at April 01, 2014 08:47 AM (TyCa2)

220 (as in hundreds of thousands of dollars) purely from the kindness of strangers? Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:41 PM (LBPyR) have you ever ridden an elephant through a fire? Since we're asking ridiculous questions.

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:47 AM (x3YFz)

221 Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Posted by: Jack Napier at April 01, 2014 08:50 AM (ZPrif)

222 uh. No. The word "most" means "a majority"

anecdotal evidence presented in a declarative statement as fact is a sign of lazy thinking.
Posted by: tangonine

I don't need an academic study to back up what should be common sense.  The super generous millionaire that decides to pay for a stranger's health care happens about as often as somebody winning the lottery.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 08:51 AM (LBPyR)

223 221 Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight? Posted by: Jack Napier at April 01, 2014 12:50 PM (ZPrif) yup. ex-wife.

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:52 AM (x3YFz)

224 There is no way the USA can have a free market health care system today. Even if Obamacare hadn't been enacted, the system was on it's way to some kind of collapse. The cost of care, because of technology, uninsured and non paying patients, and third party payers taking the responsibility for cost containment and prudent health care choices away from individuals, is completely out of the reach of most residents. I love Rush, but every time I hear him champion being able to pay his medical bills himself, including his three day hospital stay in Hawaii several years ago sets my hair on end. He truly is the 1% in that regard. Health insurance should have remained catastrophic , similar to auto insurance. No one should have had no deductible, pays for office visits, etc. insurance. Insurance should have been reserved for covering hospital stays, surgery, long term serious illness treatment, etc. stuff that most people couldn't pay out of pocket for. When insurance began in the thirties as a way to offer additional income to offset the loss of income suffered due to FDR's wage and price controls, it then continued to be used as a bargaining tool by unions, etc. to gain more income for their members. Like anything that unions and Federal government get control of, it just continued to balloon, to be used as vote getting both on the line and in the election ballot box. Meanwhile, no one paid attention to what was happening to cost. Since insurance simply "paid" , no one cared that Dr. A or Hospital B were charging. Yes, there were contracts between the insurance co. and the providers, but major corporations just kept agreeing to increased premiums as a way to avoid increased hourly, increased this and that. Municipalities like Detroit simply paid health insurance premiums and stopped paying into pensions funds, since they couldn't afford both. Additionally, the Federal gov. passed laws prohibiting a hospital from refusing to see someone without insurance. You can't get blood out of a turnip, so the indigent get the same care the insurance holders do, only they pay NOTHING. Their care costs however, and so the cost of care continued to rise to cover those losses and it was insurance that covered those losses. That is why an overnight hospital stay for a simple injury observation can run $10,000. It's paying for the injured and half a dozen other people who showed up in the ER who have no money, no insurance, but are getting the exact same treatment. The uninsured were the problem along with overuse of the system. The Democrats weren't interested in insuring them , they were interested in removing insurance from those who did have it. What they did with Obamacare was double down on exactly the same problems they were purporting to fix. They made insurance cover even more problems, which anyone with half a brain cell would know would increase the cost of insurance and lead to even greater overuse of medical care. This made insurance so expensive, the currently uninsured were not going to be able to afford it. So to fix that, they decided to pay Federal funds to subsidize the premiums then to keep those subsidies charged to the gov from not being in the stratosphere, which no one would vote for, they allowed the insurance companies to create deductibles that are so large, the uninsured STILL can't afford the policies. The Medicaid expansion offered was a carrot to the states, and touting millions being eligible now for Medicaid means that previously uninsured will now attempt to use their Medicaid cards to obtain every medical service they can, because they believe it is free. No hospital can afford to significantly increase their Medicaid admissions because it doesn't pay enough to cover for the technology used. Doctors won't accept it because 1. it doesn't cover cost 2. the average medicaid patient doesn't show, doesn't comply with instructions, lives a life that contracts a high percentage of preventable illness and injury. In other words, they are extremely high risk. That's before we get to the millions of elderly whose assets are gone and are living via Medicaid in nursing homes.

Posted by: Jen at April 01, 2014 08:52 AM (IdGqX)

225 The "people will never vote for it" argument is just another way to say beatings will continue until morale improves. It's just another troll tactic. You have to push for what you want and persuade people to join you, or you might as well just give up.

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 08:54 AM (AO9UG)

226 I don't need an academic study to back up what should be common sense. The super generous millionaire that decides to pay for a stranger's health care happens about as often as somebody winning the lottery. Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:51 PM (LBPyR) it's not the "super generous millionaire." Now, I can only speak from my personal experiences, but I've lent help when and where I could and have had the same back. Small things to big things. $30 to a Navy mom with her little one who's card wouldn't work at the commissary to $3K to me when I really needed it. It's called unselfishness.

Posted by: tangonine at April 01, 2014 08:55 AM (x3YFz)

227 226 I don't need an academic study to back up what should be common sense. The super generous millionaire that decides to pay for a stranger's health care happens about as often as somebody winning the lottery. Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 12:51 PM (LBPyR) Notice how the troll sets the boundaries and definitions for the debate. The troll must do that in order to stay in the game.

Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 08:59 AM (AO9UG)

228 it's not the "super generous millionaire."

Now, I can only speak from my personal experiences, but I've lent help when and where I could and have had the same back.

Small things to big things. $30 to a Navy mom with her little one who's card wouldn't work at the commissary to $3K to me when I really needed it.

It's called unselfishness.
Posted by: tangonine

Yes, I've also helped people, and you're using the language of the Left by saying those who don't want to help people down on their luck are defined as selfish.

But when you're talking about something like paying for chemotherapy, it's simply not in the realm of normal people being able to bridge that gap.  You're talking six figure medical bills.  That's like somebody giving you a free house.  It's just not realistic.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 09:01 AM (LBPyR)

229 Notice how the troll sets the boundaries and definitions for the debate. The troll must do that in order to stay in the game. Posted by: eman at April 01, 2014 12:59 PM (AO9UG) Why is someone always a troll if they don't agree with the mob? This discussion of healthcare goes to the basic idea of government. A group of people decide to band together to do what they can't do alone. Even F.A. Hayek, in the "Road to Surfdom" agrees that government has a role in healthcare: "Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the indivduals in providing for theose common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few indivdiduals can make adequate provision. Where as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequeences are as a rule weakened by the provisionn of assistance - where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks - the case for the state's helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong."

Posted by: jwest at April 01, 2014 09:09 AM (u2a4R)

230 Why is someone always a troll if they don't agree with the mob?
Posted by: jwest

Troll= somebody I disagree with.

I want ObamaCare repealed, and I want a more free market direction for health care.  But we also can't accomplish anything if we don't have politically palatable, conservative solutions to offer voters.

Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 09:25 AM (LBPyR)

231 I want ObamaCare repealed, and I want a more free market direction for health care. But we also can't accomplish anything if we don't have politically palatable, conservative solutions to offer voters. Posted by: McAdams at April 01, 2014 01:25 PM (LBPyR) You don't believe the key to changing things to a more conservative model lies in concentrated bitching and moaning? You're not from around here, are you?

Posted by: jwest at April 01, 2014 09:31 AM (u2a4R)

232 Yup. Pretty much here forever.

Posted by: Prohibition at April 01, 2014 10:20 AM (OPzNA)

233 Hey. Don't forget me!

Posted by: Fugitive Slave Act at April 01, 2014 10:21 AM (OPzNA)

234 President John Adams signed me, so I'm good forever.

Posted by: Alien Sedition Act at April 01, 2014 10:24 AM (OPzNA)

235 I ended war forever, so I got that goin' for me.

Posted by: Kellogg-Briand Pact at April 01, 2014 10:25 AM (OPzNA)

236 Obamacare is like a big banana. Ever tried repealing one. I thought so.

Posted by: Vice President Joe Biden at April 01, 2014 10:26 AM (OPzNA)

237 Switzerland and Taiwan aren't carrying over 51% dead weight yo. They haven't got tens of millions of illiterate Mexican immigrants or the 40 million strong grape drank mafia.

Posted by: Boss Moss at April 01, 2014 10:28 AM (bitz6)

238 Count me as one of the "7 million." My policy was cancelled and my HMO changed me over to a bronze policy. (WA state). Voila! Counted as a success. Except it's costing me 70% more in premiums and double the deductible. Wait until all these sign ups pay their premiums. May not be as successful as they think. Only could the government think that forcing people to do something be counted as a "success." We were FORCED in to it. It's like saying "Income tax is really popular! Look at all the people who pay it!" Morons.

Posted by: exliberal at April 01, 2014 02:36 PM (leIQP)

239 100% of it is repealable. The problem for this monopoly is that 100% of the time it provides people with a worse product than they could obtain for themselves. That's not true of Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid. Those provide services or cash that people couldn't obtain. But, prior to Obamacare, it was legal and possible for you to buy less insurance if you couldn't afford a total coverage plan. And the Obamacare monopoly is deliberately fixed to be exaggerated coverage. It is illegal to avoid maternity coverage because you are a single man. It is illegal to avoid maternity coverage because you are an elderly woman. It is illegal to avoid prostate cancer coverage because you are a woman. Nobody in America bought useless insurance. Until now, when everybody has to. If it simply became legal to shop around for targeted insurance, then, even if Obamacare plans weren't repealed out of existence, they would be rejected by the overwhelming majority of the population. Nobody would be "stripped". It would just be legal, in a year's time, to have the option of buying something cheaper. Nobody outlawed telegrams. It was always there, but nobody wanted it. So it died out. Same thing with Government Insurance.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 01, 2014 05:49 PM (5xmd7)

240 Commenting.

Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 04, 2014 12:57 PM (qKrH5)

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