1 I smell a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan...

2 "That pushes the announcement back past 10 December and makes a ton of sense when you consider that the politics seem to be driving this."

Politics drives EVERYTHING this administration does.  Economics, national security, even simple common sense is subjugated to the overriding political desire to hold onto power.

That low rumbling sound you hear is George Washington rolling in his grave.

3 Afghanistanization. [shrug] I've arrived at the conclusion that the only way to rule the place is to have somebody ruthlessly suppress somebody else, so the suppressers might as well be somebody we can deal with (Northern Alliance 2.0). One piece of advice to Masood the younger: Don't give any interviews to cameramen.

4

First is that Obama will wait until after he gets the Nobel to make his announcement about a troop increase so he won't catch flak from his left for warmongering when he is accepting a "peace" prize.

What?? I'm shocked! Shocked!!

5 excess nuclear arsenal + Islamo-fascists assholes + country with no exploit-able natural resources = happiness

6 The Pashtuns aren't just going to accept marginalization, you know. Pit the tribes against each other, and you'll just exacerbate the problem. And the problem is further complicated by the fact that Pashtuns across the border in Pakistan matter as much to Afghanistan's future as to Pakistan's. The whole notion of a "border" between the two countries is pretty much a western fiction; the Pashtun tribes themselves don't really recognize any such demarcation.

I still the best approach to this problem is the British Colonial one: set up outposts in the cities, and pay off the thugs in the countryside to keep the peace. If we really don't want the various drug-lords making policy in Afghanistan, then we need to turn into hard-asses and destroy the poppy crop (and take the inevitable fallout when the GDP of the country craters by 70% and impoverished farmers turn to banditry to make ends meet). Give everyone from the lowest shepherd to the richest war-lord two choices: go along, or get a visit from scary American hard-asses with guns. Forget about trying to be everybody's friend and concentrate on being a sewer worker -- just keep the shit bottled up on one place to keep it from ruining everything else.

To appropriate a quote from The Wire: You are in Afghanistan now, gentlemen. The Tajiks will not save you.

7 Uhhm, I find Afghans to be very pretty, but if we are having trouble maybe Ceaser Milan can help. It does wonders with dogs on the "Dog Whisperer"

8 I think we should pull out, take a ten minute nap, then give it another whirl.

9 Train up a formidable Northern Alliance based military to secure their own areas, and then use it to pacify the Pashtuns. It would surely be ugly, but it would get us out of the fray, and it just might work. Hmmmmm.

Eh, it's about half right.

Let the Tajiks and Uzbeks deal with their own areas and co-opt whomever you can in the Pashtun areas.

We need to work with local structures and realities and not keep trying to impost our own.

Something, anything other this ridiculous top-down western style approach we have been trying for 8 years. It will simply never work.

10 Everything with you cons is kill, kill, kill. I think we should invite them over for a nice dinner with an excellent red wine... and then have hot man-sex with them.

That will straighten them out. (or gay them out).

11

Pulling out is not an option!

12 I find the assassination of Ahmad Shah masood to be one of the most  interesting aspects of the 9/11 plan.  Steve Scholl's Ghost Wars is a good read for novice war on terror readers like me.

13 I smell a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan...
Posted by: Jahiliyya at November 20, 2009 01:47 PM (P2TRi)

Dude, if you have one that doesn't have a huge amount of 'if" (or involve a genocidal strike on the country), I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.

Keep in mind McChrystal's plan only talks about 'best chances' for success. Nobody is guaranteeing anything. Nature of the beast and all.

14 Why don't we just send colonists into Afghanistan and breed with there women and wait 30 years for them to become america light.

15 @14, Better yet send Matt Damon, Ben Affleck and George Clooney, it thirty years it will be a nation of idiots.

16

Dude, if you have one that doesn't have a huge amount of 'if" (or involve a genocidal strike on the country), I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.

unfortunately that is the only one that doesn't have an "if" but it would and should probably never be considered. I guess the "Aliens" plan will be put on the back burner

17

COOL FACTS ABOUT CHARLES GIBBSON:

1.  Charles Gibbson always signs his name with a question mark.

2.  Rumor has it that Christopher Nolan's Riddler costume for Batman 3 will be covered with pictures of Charles Gibbson.

3.  No one knows whos burried in Charles Gibbsons tomb.

4. When God answers Charles Gibbson's prayers he has to wear a name tag.

5.  Every time Charles Gibbson sneazes he says "bless you."

6. The only person more powerfull tha Chuck Norris is...wait a minute, Chuck Norris? never heard of him.

Charles Gibbson thinks his mirror is actually a window into some strangers house.

7.  When Charles Gibbson peed on the tree of knowlege it died.

18

"Nice to know the power brokers are reading this site."

Well, SOMEONE has to to make up for the fact that Ace doesn't read it :-P

19 Sounds like the Indian tribes of the American West, and of course we remember how that worked out for Gen Custer, who thought they wouldn't band together.

I am honestly out of ideas for Afghanistan. Without a strong central government, which America had during their war with the Native American tribes, all you wind up doing is empowering one tribe for a short time until they decide to be your enemy and then you wind up going back to the other tribes, hat in hand promising to make them the big dog on the block. Rinse. Repeat.

Leave them to their 9th century civilization, and since we no longer have the will to wage an all out war, let's get the hell out of there and go kick their ass again after they kill another 3000 civilians at home, also known as the Holder Option.

20 Muslim Prez fighting his Muslin brothers and receiving a medal for it. How ironic is this?

21

Sounds like the Indian tribes of the American West, and of course we remember how that worked out for Gen Custer, who thought they wouldn't band together.

I am honestly out of ideas for Afghanistan. Without a strong central government, which America had during their war with the Native American tribes, all you wind up doing is empowering one tribe for a short time until they decide to be your enemy and then you wind up going back to the other tribes, hat in hand promising to make them the big dog on the block. Rinse. Repeat.

Leave them to their 9th century civilization, and since we no longer have the will to wage an all out war, let's get the hell out of there and go kick their ass again after they kill another 3000 civilians at home, also known as the Holder Option.

So you are saying we need a Blanket Offensive followed up by a Casino Mopping Up Operation?

22 Hummmm..the ol' North versus South maneuver, I remember a couple of those in the past. In fact, I was involved in one.

We even had a wild card tribe in that hated both the North and the South, but they made damn good fighters. And yes, we did use them, in fact used them up just like cordwood sometimes.

You can rent an Afghan, but you can never buy one..(read that somewhere).

Papa Ray
Central Texas

23 So you are saying we need a Blanket Offensive followed up by a Casino Mopping Up Operation?

Don't forget the alcohol.

24

We need a new battlefield to fight, that is much more U.S Military friendly. Afghanistan is a difficult place to fight. Nobody really believes that Obama and the Democrats are going to leave a situtaion where a more Military friendly President can fight to win. Let's go back to Africa! 

Al-Qaeda will follow us there, just like in Iraq.

We have to figure out a way to get all the Nukes out of Pakistan in the same move. Maybe we could con the Indians and Pakistanis to both give up their Nukes at the same time?

There is something inside of me, probably because I don't trust Obama or the Democrats, that we should go ahead do a full withdrawl, and plan for a massive War in the future. I don't think anybody deserves to die under this Presidency.

 

 

25 San Fran Nan says Karzai is an "unworthy partner."  Is that supposed to be a good excuse for giving up?

26 Sounds like the Indian tribes of the American West, and of course we remember how that worked out for Gen Custer, who thought they wouldn't band together.

Eh...I wouldn't draw too much from that episode. Little Big Horn was a one-off coalition and never did lead to the larger war that Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse envisioned -- the tribes simply could not get along for long enough to make an alliance work. But the bigger problem was that -- for war materiel -- they were essentially parasitic on the same enemy they hoped to defeat. They couldn't manufacture repeating rifles or even the ammunition; they had to buy or steal it, and they could never do either in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

Custer's mistakes were not strategic; they were tactical ("Don't underestimate your enemy," being the biggest one). And Little Big Horn, though a military defeat, mattered almost not at all in any larger sense -- in fact it led directly to a larger US Army presence and harsher treatment for the Sioux and Cheyenne. As is so often the case, the tactical victory for the Indians was Pyrrhic -- they were driven into Canada and onto reservations within ten years of that battle.

Afghanistan is not the American West. There is no wave of settlers coming in to "civilize" the cavemen or drive them away. America's heartland was an amazingly fertile and resource-rich area; Afghanistan is mainly arid high desert without even enough mineral wealth to be interesting. It is a dusty, backward, middle-of-nowhere patch of the earth's surface, and is only worthwhile due to its proximity to places that are important.

27 "Let's go back to Africa! 

Al-Qaeda will follow us there, just like in Iraq."

Hey...hate to break this to you, but they are already there and doing pretty damn good.

28

@27,

Papa,

Well that's what I'm saying. Let's go back on the Offensive there, and that will draw more of them out of the WoodWork!

29 @28

Jimi, don't be in such a hurry. We got SOF there now, sizing up the situation and laying the ground work. We will be there soon enough.

Papa Ray

30

So you are saying we need a Blanket Offensive followed up by a Casino Mopping Up Operation?

Don't forget the alcohol.

It's Fire Water to you whitie

31

the best approach to this problem is the British Colonial one: set up outposts in the cities, and pay off the thugs in the countryside to keep the peace

 

Isn't this how Saddam got started? Enemy of my enemy and all...

And, I'm likely going to hell for this, but Ben@ #21 -That's funny shit raht there.

32 13 I smell a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan...
Posted by: Jahiliyya at November 20, 2009 01:47 PM (P2TRi)

Dude, if you have one that doesn't have a huge amount of 'if" (or involve a genocidal strike on the country), I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
Posted by: DrewM. at November 20, 2009 02:10 PM (FCWQb)

But essentially that is the plan that was suggested. Empower one group to commit genocide against the other.

The only difference is that in one plan we're just enablers and in the other we actually pull the trigger.

33 First is that Obama will wait until after he gets the Nobel to make his announcement about a troop increase so he won't catch flak from his left for warmongering when he is accepting a "peace" prize.

Well it's good to know he's thinking of the interests of the US and the troops first.  To think, some people (racists, no doubt) insist that he's an egomaniacal politician.

34 Nice to know the power brokers are reading this site.

"Power Brokers" are now reading this?  I didn't know I had the chance to influence the decision makers!

This requires that I increase the fart & excrement references tout de suite!  Of course this is in addition to the staples of bacon, hobo skinning & tranny pr0n.

35 This requires that I increase the fart & excrement references tout de suite!

Mixing scatology with French idioms -- nice.

36

WWII style bombing.  All out, no prisoners war.  It won't take long.

Sends just the right message.

37 Hell it's Vietnam all over again, or deja vu all over again , take your pick. I certainly identify with what's going on and until we bash that shithole with lots of Brave Soldiers to grab hold of the problem it's going to sadly be another meat grinder!!! Fuck odumbass the cockholster!

38 Pulling out is not an option!

39 @38, But putting in is definitely an option

40

San Fran Nan says Karzai is an "unworthy partner." 

Then he must be the rigt guy.

41 That pushes the announcement back past 10 December and makes a ton of sense when you consider that the politics seem to be driving this.

Hopefully, he'll make a decision in time for spin-up before the Taliban emerge from their usual winter hibernation.

The second was an idea to marginalize the Pashtun tribes that support the Taliban by empowering the Tajiks.

Look for this action to increase the inflow of help from Iran into the Pashtun region.

Another interesting piece of that is that the leader of the Northern Alliance, until his assassination by al Qaeda just before 9/11, Ahmed Shah Masood has a son who is now 20 years old.

This month Outside magazine took time out from promoting AGW propaganda and provided an article on a US Mountain Division outpost near the Pakistan border.  The US soldiers work side by side with an Afghan Army platoon.  The leader of that contingent used to fight under Massoud.  It's nice to see we are taking advantage of the former NA.

It has always made sense to train Afghan security forces to patrol areas where their own tribe lives, kind of a National Guard concept.

The problem with this is the possibility (nay inevitability) of corruption.  But in the short term I think you have to take the bad w/ the good.

42 But essentially that is the plan that was suggested. Empower one group to commit genocide against the other.
Posted by: Jahiliyya at November 20, 2009 02:31 PM (P2TRi)


McChrystal's plan is not even remotely an effort to reignite the Afghan civil war. It's essentially the exact opposite...an effort to create and empower a strong centralized government.

43 Pelosi needs someone to hold her hand when she goes to piss, totally stupid.

44

The second was an idea to marginalize the Pashtun tribes that support the Taliban by empowering the Tajiks.

If all else fails, let them dance

http://tinyurl.com/65h837

45 42 McChrystal's plan is not even remotely an effort to reignite the Afghan civil war. It's essentially the exact opposite...an effort to create and empower a strong centralized government.
Posted by: DrewM. at November 20, 2009 02:52 PM (FCWQb)

I was not addressing McChrystal's plan, but these sentences from Uncle Jimbo's vomit:
The second was an idea to marginalize the Pashtun tribes that support the Taliban by empowering the Tajiks. This makes sense as some of the only times of stability in Afghanistan have come when one group is able to suppress another and force them to play nice.

Marginalize... Suppress... Force....

See where it's going...

46 Arm our 12 million illegals and train them and send them over there, if they make it back they can stay!!

47 Pit the tribes against each other, and you'll just exacerbate the problem.

Agreed.  That was the French tactic during their colonizations.  It works, if you don't care what happens when you leave.  And of course, that is not (or should not) be our goal.

Also agree on the British model to an extent.  In the short term, lets push the Taliban out of the population centers and push them into remote regions.

In the long term, when the Afghan security forces have matured, they can attempt to confront them.  Due to the difficult topography, they will never be able (at least in our lifetime) to flush them out entirely.  But the topography also plays in our favor.  It just as hard to get into those areas as it is to get out.  So they will stay isolated.

48 .. and then have hot man-sex with them.

Is there any other type?

49 Mixing scatology with French idioms -- nice.

You mean you can separate them?

50 I think its a huge mistake to marginalize the pashtuns when with some engagement we could flip them. I wish wish wish these dumbasses would actually Study the tribes, their historical loyalties and the way these  societies function. They need to be handled carefully and with honour an you cant bully them, but you can convince them its in their intrest to team up IF they can trust you. (which they cant really because nobody can trust this administration.)
but then that would be working WITH the people and using them to help us, maybe even getting them to do our killing for us. These over broad generalizations about the Afghan regional people I keep hearing just indicate to me nobody is paying attention to the idea of seeing whats THERE, but instead the people calling the shots in washington and the media are seeing everything thru the prisim of bias and comfortable ignorance. With a few notable exceptions, who of course are politically marginalized themselves.
Sun Tzu said a force that knew itself, knew its battlefield and knew its enemy is unbeatable.
this administration strikes out on all three. Our poor generals
Or military is like a fine warhorse, well trained and princely, with an untrained and arrogant idiot riding it. If he gets thrown he will blame the horse.
BTW Afghanistan aint a whole lot different than california and is not a hellhole. You can grow any number of crops there with irrigation. Alot like the Central Valley. Its a hard place, but not impossible to work with once you get security there.

51 6  ... I still the best approach to this problem is the British Colonial one: set up outposts in the cities, and pay off the thugs in the countryside to keep the peace. If we really don't want the various drug-lords making policy in Afghanistan, then we need to turn into hard-asses and destroy the poppy crop (and take the inevitable fallout when the GDP of the country craters by 70% and impoverished farmers turn to banditry to make ends meet). Give everyone from the lowest shepherd to the richest war-lord two choices: go along, or get a visit from scary American hard-asses with guns. Forget about trying to be everybody's friend and concentrate on being a sewer worker -- just keep the shit bottled up on one place to keep it from ruining everything else ...

Posted by: Monty at November 20, 2009 02:00 PM (4Pleu)

This is a winner for me. For too long we have tried to win the hearts and minds of a country that grows and exports poison, and acts as a training ground for Islamoimperialist terrorism. Screw these people. I'm for eradicating every poppy field in the country, and destroying anyone who resists. Bribe the warlords who will go along with us; kill the rest. Sow the fields with salt. Raze villages and salt their ruins. It is time to set an example to the world of just what will happen when we are pushed too far, and this poor excuse for a country is just the place to do it.

Not that Jug Ears the WonderPussy would actually take forceful action against anyone but Americans, of course.

52 The second was an idea to marginalize the Pashtun tribes that support the Taliban by empowering the Tajiks. -- Seriously, did they crib that from a 19th century letter from PM Peel.

53 My solution is that we push hard and clean out as much of the residual terrorist elements as we can and then make a very public exit saying essentially to the Afghan people 'it's your baby now'. And conclude our exit with an equally public pronouncement that if anything approaching the Taliban arises again we will be back. And we will turn the news cameras off. And we will finish their bullshit once and for all. Like Rome did to Carthage.

54 dunno' if anybody else has seen this but it's new to me, pretty funny:

http://tinyurl.com/ycfaw5y

55 The National guard idea? We trained Bosnians to defend themselves and then they began butchering Serbs.That area is still a cesspool.

56

IIRC, the Taliban are Pashtun, but are not necessarily the traditional tribal leadership.  That can be a good area to work on.  So long as it is everybody versus the Pashtuns, then they will close ranks - the Taliban and the traditional tribal leadership.  However, if some of the Pashtun tribal leadership can be turned, then there is the possibility of fomenting an inter-Pashtun war, with the Taliban attacking their fellow tribesmen.  Much like AQ attacking the Sunni leadership in Iraq got the Sunni to throw themselves alongside the Americans and attack the AQ amongst them.

I suppose one step would be to really highlight Taliban attacks on Pashtuns, Taliban high-handedness when dealing with Pashtuns, Taliban desire to supplant all traditional Pashtun leaders, etc.  Something like "The Taliban has taken and killed the rightful leaders of the Booli clan - who do you think is going to be next?  Do you think they will stop there?  Look how they stole the Booli clan's livestock and their women - do you think they will be satisfied with that alone?  The Booli clan worked with the Taliban and see how they were treated.  Do you think your cooperation with the Taliban will keep you safe if they decide they have no further use for you?"

57

Or another:  "The Taliban had the Kieli clan attack the Booli clan.  Do you now trust your dealings with the Kieli clan?  When will their knives be turned on you, now that they are enriched?  Do you wish to be subserviant to the Kieli clan?  Do you wish to spend your blood so that the Kieli clan becomes stronger?"

Stuff like that.

58 Some stupid congress critter (Levin) says tax the high income earners enough to pay for the war. I like my option better, pay the congress critters a minimum hourly wage and provide only one assistant, also at minimum wage. We could fund the war and provide tax relief to every American citizen. Come on Levin, volunteer to work as a volunteer with no assistants. I forgot he's a stupid democrat so thinks it's only fair to punish the conservatives or ask them to give. I want to stand back and watch as 50 million+ irate citizens hack these hacks to pieces. There won't be enough left of them for a DNA test.

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