1 I understand it's a different branch, but this is the same military that gave Nidal Hasan a pass for preaching Jihadist doctrine and corresponding with an associate of the 9/11 cabal, right? Right??

2 Suicidal nation.

3 I thought suicide was illegal, anyways.  Can we arrest Congress?

4 A bullet behind the ear saves a shitload of paperwork.

5 I think you put you finger on it Drew: this is being arranged, consciously or unconsciously, to dissuade military personnel from doing anything more than the bear minimum -- something that's going to force the really good ones out.

6

Abed slipped.  case closed

 

7 Somebody get this damn sock off a me!

8 The USA is so f*&ked.

9 "The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial." This was a smart move on their part - refuse to disciplined administratively (in private) and demand a trial (to be played out publicly). How much you wanna bet that this is somehow walked back aggressively in the next few days. Reminds me of the line from Apocalypse Now: "charging someone here with murder is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500".

10 this shit is getting crazy.

11 I'm sure he came quietly

12 Not just that they were Blackwater employees but at least one was a former SEAL. Should feel lucky that that terrorist is still alive and all he got was a bloody lip.

13 The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.

Repeat from last thread:

I spent 7 years in the Navy and I never heard of an "Admiral's Mast". NJP was called "Captain's Mast". 

I would hope that they would not take "Captain's Mast".  The reason they call it non-judicial punishment is because there is no finding of guilt involved. You are guilty when you go, the intent of the "mast" is to allocate punishment. It is the resposibility of the XO to determine guilt or innocence through "investigation" and it appears that he has already done that. PC bullshit at work again here folks.

14 Gentlemen and ladies we are witnessing the pussification of the US military. 

15 Maybe our illustrious AG will charge them in civilian court. I would like to volunteer for the jury.

16 Gentlemen and ladies we are witnessing the pussification of the US military. 

Posted by: RobD at November 24, 2009 03:44 PM (sV3Dv)

Wait until you get the new hats.

17 God speed gentlemen, and may your acquittal be swift.

18 If you think that's bad wait till people get charged with performing surgery without a license for lancing a boil after Obamacare goes into effect.

19 Want my take?  I'm a former Marine Corps prosecutor.  From what I'm divining here, I think the impetus for the charges being preferred was some kind of tom foolery by the SEALS during the "investigation".  In other words, the Navy probably would have let this go without action if the SEALS did not do something to obstruct the investigation, or lie about something stupid.  Am I outraged?  Yes, but I know how these things work.  In reacting to the investigation, the SEALS may have panicked and fudged some facts which were objectively false.  Knowing the Marine Corps and the Navy like I do, they consider that worse, much, much worse, than the underlying "offense", if it even occurred.  So, what would have been nothing turned into something.  I don't like this "lawfare" crap one bit as it makes our operators and Marines sheepish.  What the real concern is in the field is outright murder.  This crap is nickel and dime.  I don;t blame them for not accepting NJP.  I;d rather case my lot with a trial by members and let them sort it out.   

20 Talk about a smack in the chops.

21 Next up:

Three Force Recon Marines charged with hurting Taliban feelings>

22 I would take the Admiral's Mast. Oh how I would take it.....

23 Good lord, next you'll be telling me that our armed forces go around shooting perfect strangers. I feel faint!

24 Maybe the guy just tripped and fell down the off-ramp..........

25 I hope these guys know what they are doing. Requesting CM really ups the stakes versus NJP. Even if this scum bag was punched, it can be quietly handled at an NJP. Assuming that an Article 32 hearing showed that there was enough evidence to move forward. I think they are playing a game of chicken betting the Navy won't go after them due to public opinion.

26 I may have made those emails up. Who is to say?

So Drew has gone Climaquiddick on the emails.

27 Game's over, we lose. Thank you President Hussein, thank you 52%.

28 This kind of PC bullshit will result in the death of many of us in the years to come

29

Good for the Seals. I bet the higher ups thought the seals would just take the punishment and walk away, but instead they are standing up for themselves against an every weakening military leadership. I hope they take this all the way and win. God knows are military needs Special Ops men more than the Special Ops men need our military. These are guys that could be raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars with a private security firm and still have access to top equiptment.

 

Full Disclosure: I would side with the Seals even if we found out they killed the terrorist by rubbing a rusty cheese grater on his taint until he died of massive blood loss.

30

IÂ’m sure they will promptly escape to the Los Angeles underground.

31 slade,

I don't have the experience you outline but that was my feeling too.

I don't doubt they gave the guy a bloody lip. They should be told, "don't do that again" by their detachment leader and that's it. But given the desire to run people up on charges in these wars, it becomes a huge case.

There's zero sense of proportion and some people are way to eager to throw their fellows under the bus (the asshole general who go the snipers brought up on charges in Afghanistan comes to mind).

The SEALS no doubt lied about something but short of murder, rape or the like, I Do Not Care. They should not have been put in the position to have to have lied out of fear of ruining their carers over a non incident.

Something is seriously wrong with our military at a certain level.

32 from Military.com

The 82nd and 101st Airborne troops are under orders not to say ‘Geronimo’ during airdrop operations. Paratroopers are instructed to state “I’m Sorry” in a clear voice as they deploy from the aircraft.

-

Preemptive apoligizing should work.

33

The SEALS acted stupidly

34 @28 nevergiveup

This kind of PC bullshit will result in the death of many of us in the years to come

That depends on how you define "us."

The 52 aren't "us" to me anymore.

35 Wait until you see what happens to the guys and gals who didn't smile during the photo - op.

36

And here I sit with the label of "pussy" hanging about my neck like a flaming tire in South Africa. What a world.

37 You know what this'll lead to, right?

"Sorry Sir. It appears that he slipped on a falafel and landed on my KaBar....three times. Then buried himself in a fig orchard."

I'm being flippant, of course. But this is going to be corrosive to good order in the ranks and it's gonna get people killed.

In fact, it's already getting people killed. In Lone Survivor, Marcus Luttrell talks about how his SEAL team had a couple of sheep herders come upon their position, compromising them. They captured the locals and had an intense discussion about killing them on the spot (which would have been the tactical thing to do). Ultimately, they released them. The sheep herders ran directly to the nearest Taliban and ratted the team out. The result: 19 American dead.

38
The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.

This is a load of crap, and props to them for demanding the Court Martial and getting this on the record.  Some ass-covering c*cksucking admiral is behind this, I have no doubt.  Probably the navy's answer to Wes Clark.   I hope they end some careers on this.

39 He fell down the stairs. I'll testify to that in court.

40 This is stupid and whoever was responsible for bringing charges needs to be thoroughly investigated.  That being said, how many of these cases go anywhere?  Last I heard, everyone (but one pending at the time) scapegoated for Haditha got off.

41 Man, we really need to stop taking prisoners.

42

Thank God the terrorist isn't gay or they'd be charged with a hate crime to boot.

43 I'm assuming these Navy Seals, who are American Heroes, will not have access to the same rights the 9/11 terrorists are about to get in  New York City?

44 #42 He isn't gay?

45 Navy Seals?  Screw them mercenaries.

46

Split lip ?  And all his teeth - such as they were - intact ?

Slap's more like it.

The Muj abroad and here are now given full civilian AND military protection

K E L F M N

Doubt me kuffir ?  Fools !  Dar al-Islam is called on by their Guiding Doctrine, the Qurap, to do three things ...

1) convert the Infidel

2) if the Infidel will not convert, they must pay the jizyah tax

3) if the Infidel will not convert or be taxed, put them to the sword

Simpletons out there, clue up. This shit's current since the 600s

47 I'm assuming these Navy Seals, who are American Heroes, will not have access to the same rights the 9/11 terrorists are about to get in  New York City?


IIRC, even when carried out ethically and honorably, military justice isn't even in the ballpark of the civilian justice system when it comes to the rights of the accused. Not to mention the farce this is likely to become.

48

Barack Obama:  "I'll finish the job in Afghanistan."

Since when did this sucker of cock go on active duty?  Attend Command and General Staff College?  War College?

If he were a true Commander in Chief concerned with both the outcome and the military, he would have said we will finish the job in Afghanistan, giving credit to the people that will actually perform the heavy lifting.

What a dick. 

49 This is ridiculous.  Next thing you know our military will be charged with not letting go of a terrorist's Eggo.

Keyrist, what is wrong with this country?

50 My heart hurts!  Good luck shipmates.

51 Will Eric Holder grant these SEALS the kind of justice that let's us live up to our ideals? A full civilian trial with all Constitutional privileges instead of the UCMJ? He'll probably put them up for rendition to the Taliban.

52

Drew:

In the Marine Corps and Navy, honesty and integrity are the most important attributes of a member.  Even in criminal investigations, it's often a focus as to whether the subject has lied, obstructed etc.  He could rest on his Art 31 rights and say nothing, which would be fine.  I've seen this dozens of times: some otherwise minor offense, or even an eventually non-criminal incident becomes criminal when evidence surfaces of lies, obstruction.  The remedy is for the member to completely honest, or say nothing at all.  Good leadership should obviate these kind of results.  I have no doubt these SEALS were well led, as is evidenced by the Officer in Charge's referral of the incident up the chain of command.  I'm feeling sick about this.  I've actually prosecuted these kind of resultant process crimes and you hate to do it, but that's the law.  I always thought of it as manufactured crime, but we still can't have members lying to commanders.

53
The feminization of our military is right on schedule.

54

"Barack Obama:  "I'll finish the job in Afghanistan."

Well if you don't need me sign my discharge papers I guess.

55
Poppydash!

56

Mmmm. Navy Seals.

Oh, wait, what? What was the topic?

I would actually like to see the numbers of military choosing not to re-enlist since the great half white hype was elected. Does the military keep track of that? And do people have the choice not to re-enlist?

57 Waited till I was dead to Breaker Morant the lads, 'idn't they?

58

In other words, the Navy probably would have let this go without action if the SEALS did not do something to obstruct the investigation, or lie about something stupid....

Who the fuck is "investigating" a fat lip and hurt feelings? This is war, not black friday shopping here.

59

OK, so far we have "stupid" police in Cambridge, "rabid" right wingers that killed that census worker, "militant" combat vets starting militias all over the country and now "bullies" that gave a bloody lip to a murdering POS.

Bizarro World!

Come on Nov. 2010, I'm losing it way too quick.

60 Super fucking lame.

61 If he were a true Commander in Chief concerned with both the outcome and the military, he would have said we will finish the job in Afghanistan, giving credit to the people that will actually perform the heavy lifting.

What a dick. 

Posted by: Fish at November 24, 2009 04:01 PM (6mfq0)

As I have always said, I think it is important to keep my eye on the ball. I will finish the job, and I will accept nothing less then my total victory over those that oppose me. Next I would like to talk about Afghanistan.

62 I had a law professor (an expert in civilian criminal and military law) who said that if he were guilty, he'd want to be tried in a civilian court, but if he were innocent, he'd want to be tried in a military court. FWIW.

63 What ever the outcome of the court these guys are already fuk'd. The Seals are particular about the records of their members.

They should look at retirement as soon as the charges are dismissed.

64 Next double tap the son of a bitch and it is over with.  This really pisses me off. Boots on the ground with their hands tied behind their back, oh yes, that is after they mirandise the fuckers....This asshole Obama is destroying everything that we once were...Yes, I know Obama, was not prez when this occurred, but I hate the fucker anyways.

65

Haven't I read that, as the Armed Services have shrunk, the JAG Corps component has grown.  Has this resulted in the military lawyer being more important than the guys actually killing enemies?

66 Hey, I'm not defending it; just 'splainin' it.  BTW, Murtha, a former Marine like my less than humble self, is a traitor and has dishonored the Marine Corps with his accusations against the now innocent Haditha Marines.  If I ever met the man I'd punch him in the face

67

  I always thought of it as manufactured crime, but we still can't have members lying to commanders.

Yeah, lying is only acceptable if a higer ranking person does it to a lower ranking person

68 Ace must be awake. He's outdone himself.

69 OMG...We're Doomed and our enemies are laughing at our demise.

70

Hey, I'm not defending it; just 'splainin' it.  BTW, Murtha, a former Marine like my less than humble self, is a traitor and has dishonored the Marine Corps with his accusations against the now innocent Haditha Marines.  If I ever met the man I'd punch him in the face

 

you're right in your assessment, but lets not pretend that the officers in the military are held to the same standard as the NCOs and enlisted men.

71 It has seemed to me for some time that the military is over-lawyered, just like civilians.

72 This kind of PC bullshit will result in the death of many of us in the years to come

You know what I think is hilariously ironic?  Those who are demanding PC treatment are the first ones who are going to be slaughtered when the inevitable occurs.  I am trying to find it amusing that I'm going to be under a freaking wall due to an inability to protect myself.  Yup.  It's going to be funny.  Yuppers. 

73

" I have no doubt these SEALS were well led, as is evidenced by the Officer in Charge's referral of the incident up the chain of command."

I disagree.

Said Officer should have used better judgement, and let it go.  Investigate the officer.

74

If JAG had been present on Iwo Jima after the Marines completed the mop-up operation, more men would have been in jail that buried in that volcanic rock.

75 Wanna bet there will be fewer POWs now? Shoot the Ayrab then give him his right to remain silent!
"Sorry ol bean, but did I just put another hole in your head?"
"Sue me!"

76
Has this resulted in the military lawyer being more important than the guys actually killing enemies?

Yes.  Goddamned JAG is everywhere, and how do they get promoted?  Prosecuting troops.

77 Slade,

Fair point and for example, I wasn't destroyed over Scooter Libby's conviction, lying is lying (though I'm not conviced he lied but that's the jury's call).

The difference is, it's a damn war zone.

There were other ways to handle it without even going the NJP route. Problem is a guy like Lt. Col. Chessani gets nailed for not investigating with what someone up the chain considered sufficient zeal and his career and life is in the shitter, even if he is never tried.

So these things automatically go to 11 because no one wants to be the guy who just handles it in house.

That's a much bigger problem than anything the SEALS did but it will never be addressed.

78 These fucking terrorists are trained to play these JAGoff lawyers like a fiddle.

79 The revolution just edged a little closer...

80 You hate to do it but it's the law?  Again, with all due respect, if we are investigating soldiers in circumstances like this, the law is an ass.  If the brass is allowing investigations like this, it sounds like we are using the General Casey standard at all levels.  Sorry but I don't buy the explanations or excuses.

81

Has Barry issued a statement that we shouldn't jump to any conclusions yet?

82
Sadly it is all too clear that the gay/liberal powers that be are employing  the same plan with the military that they successfully used to infiltrate the public education system.

83
You hate to do it but it's the law?

Shit.  All JAG does is go after the real soldiers, and get used to play politics by the brass against eachother.

84 No offense slade, but some dickweed "investigator/lawyer" is gonna hang out a shingle some day, and say "why yes, I served on the front lines". "War is hell, forms in triplicate and all that".

85 Phew.  a maelstrom of opinion; I agree with most of this.  Lawfare has been an unfortunate product of our over litigious, over-regulated society.  With a more aggressive 24/7 media, even the military recognizes that bad press through bad behavior must be avoided, so they focus more on this.  True, in earlier times, this stuff was routine and was ignored.  Times were different.  What we need to do is aggressively defend these warriors so that government officials are as concerned with defenders as they are detractors.  I hate to say it but this kind of crap (lawfare) started under Clinton and then Bush never really cracked down on it.  I was inducted under Reagan and that was the last of the Mohicans as far as a truly unimpeded military.  So, be vocal and make sure those powers that be dont feel comfortable running warriors up the flagpole

86 #45 beat me to the punch!

87 "Loyalty is a two way street but right now it seems a Muslim Army doctor communicating with al Qaeda gets more of the benefit of the doubt than three Navy SEALS on the front line."--DrewM.

PC is reverse discrimination that was founded and remains funded to target white males. Are any of these 3 SEALS black, brown, red or yellow?

"Said Officer should have used better judgment, and let it go.  Investigate the officer."--pelvis

What is said Officer's personal racial profile?

/PC is the liberals' favorite white on white crime to prosecute "the incorrect".

88

Not quite the same thing, yet, but apropos.

89 I am with Ben at 29 on this.

90 These communist media bastards are pond scum.

91 See you all at the re-education camps

92 "These fucking terrorists are trained to play these JAGoff lawyers like a fiddle." Posted by: Mal

Terrorism is funded by Obama, Inc. initiating a war tax to usurp more NEW TAX funds from our military to train more terrorists to play his revisionist eine kleine nachtmusik. The last straw, price fix each American scalp @ $1million.

93 Once again, wars conducted by JAG OFFicerS are never won.  Screw Admiral's Mast. Let's publish the transcript of this CM.

94

It's a new kind of war, George. A new war for a new century.

95 Profanity-laced tirade here http://bit.ly/4FbHyM. But seriously isn't this the perfect place for some jury nullification? All it takes is a couple of good men to tell Tom Cruise to bugger off and these guys walk out heads held high.

Cordially,

Uncle J

96 Beer Summit!

97
The dereliction of duty charge is the kiss of death for any military career,even if acquitted the taint will always be there.The services of these fine courageous  young men( which took hundreds of thousands of our tax dollars to train)are now lost to us forever because some terrorist got a bloody lip.

98

The op was Sept. of this year, btw.

Petty Officer Julio Huertas, SO-1, faces those same charges and an additional charge of impediment of an investigation.

Does not sound like a scadi to me.

99 oops, that should have read "Does not sound like a dirty, filthy Scandi, to me."

100 I'd like to know what asshole brought the charges in the first place.  As for Abed, he should be reminded, "you could have been brought in DEAD".

101 Admiral Painter: "This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."

102 I charge those Seals with being Awesome above and beyond the call of duty.

103 Why hasn't anyone ever taught the Yanks the always proper response, "Don't know, sir. I didn't see anything."?

104 Unfortunately, while we are practicing "lawfare" with it requiring soldiers to keep one eye on the enemy and one eye on their own side for the shiv, the enemy is practicing old fashioned warfare by trying to kill anyone they can get their hands on.  General Casey is a prime example.  We practiced lawfare and it ultimately led to 9/11.  We are continuing to do it even with that track record of success and it is killing our soldiers. 

105 I feel nothing over the bloody lips of those terrorists. They wage war for Prophet. Screw them.

106 Thanks for saying that, Chris.

107 As an added bit of poetry, the three will be arraigned on, wait for it, December 7th.

They would have preferred to hold them until next September 11th, but the cells need to be kept available for conservative talk radio hosts.

Seems like the concept of war and the identification of the enemy need to be made clear to this administration.

108 I don't know the details, and there may be more, but I think this is the time for me to finally say it: DON'T JOIN THE NAVY. Join the Army or Coast Guard or Air Force or Marines, but the Navy has a rot in it, so avoid it. That rot may have nothing to do with this case at all--but there is a penumbra to rot that influences other things.

That's part one. Part two is that the civilian politicos need to stop trying to continue their political games via attempts at using military rules against members that are motivated more by political concerns than anything else. Not cricket.

109

I know there are differences and that this isn't good legal or even logical analysis. But my gut can't get past the churning and anger that something about this stinks. We're railroading Navy Seals for God's sake - among our absolute best - and at the same time we're bending and contorting every conceivable standard to make sure the terrorist who masterminded the death of 3,000 innocent Americans gets not just a fair shake, but more than that.

With all due respect, please don't bother to explain the differences to me and why my "moral equivalency" here doesn't hold up to logic. I know it really doesn't too. I've read the threads and I get it. But I just can't get past my feeling that something is rotten here.

110 Truly disgusting actions by the pc brass to charge these heroes with anything. That bottom crawling terrorist should have been shot on sight.

As for 'making up emails', I believe you may have a job opportunity at the East Anglia Hadley CRU, where such skill sets are in high demand.

111 Hey I know a couple of ex Seals (let me rephrase that) retired Navy Seals.

If either one of them hit you, you would be in the fucking hospital for weeks. If anything they might have flicked his little poor lip with a pinkie. You know, just trying to scare a fly or something away.

It's too damn bad there wasn't some kind of accident on the way back to base.

Papa Ray

112 My opinion is that it's a roll of the dice. NJP is entirely up to the opinion of the CO. That's why it's called Non Judicial. It's you against the old man. I've seen a CO throw the book at a SN because he thought that he hadn't learned his lesson yet. I've seen CO's let good sailors go as a means to "scare them straight". I'd think a good command would never let this go through XOI. But the fact that this case is political and already being tried within the media, court martial is probably in their favor. Admirals do indeed conduct Mast. FYI. Some for BZs. Some to "award" punishment.

113 It is NOT enough these people be found 'Not Guilty'. EVERYBODY in their 'chain of command' who permitted these bogus charges to go forward MUST be given Dishonorable Discharges with no pension or other rights.

It is NOT sufficient these people be exonerated. There is a greater justice to be served.

114

I have an extremely hard time believing this to be true.  If it is true, for the first time in my life, I'm ashamed of my country.

Those who brought these charges and those who allowed them to be brought deserve to be kicked out of what ever positions they currently have and to be ridiculed to the point that their names epitomize infamy and will be mocked whenever they're mentioned - as does the current Army chief of staff for his asshole remark belittling the lives of his soldiers.

115 Finally, if these guys lied, then unfortunately there is a process that needs to be carried out, and should be carried out. But to be clear--as far as I'm concerned, if they lied it is because of a lack of faith in the Navy, which they expected to cave to the politicos.

Because the Navy has perhaps well deserved that rep. And I can only name less than one hand's worth of incidents. I wonder what the guys serving currently can name.

Every disaster has multiple causal factors, and they don't always merely reside in the guy who caused the final act that led to the disaster--but that is the guys who usually gets to sit in the dock.

Don't join the Navy.

116 Take no prisoners ever again.  Just shoot on site.  A dead man can't testify against you.  Fuck em.  Blow them all to hell.

117 oops.  site = sight

118

I'm a long time removed from the United States Army, but if I recall correctly (I usually don't) the rank of the Officer hearing your case can have loads of bearing on the punishment meted out.  In the Army, it was called an Article 15.  Dunno what it's called in the Navy.

 

Anyhoo, in the Army, a Company Grade Officer (Lt through Army Captain) could only fine you and bust you one grade (IIRC).  A Field Grade Officer (Major through Bird Colonel) could bust you down to buck-ass Private and give you time.  Thirty days, I think.  'Bad' time, as it's known.

 

Never heard of anybody going in front of a General Officer for minor cases.  Dunno.  Maybe.  I dunno.  (Navy Flag Officer = Army General Officer [Ithink])

 

Anyway, I can understand them choosing a Court Martial if they don't trust their own Commanding Officer, who would be hearing the case.  Unless things have changed, they'll probably get a 'Special' Court Martial which is usually done by a single, high-ranking Field Grade Officer from another unit.  Usually a Bird Colonel (Navy = Captain).

119 I may have made those emails up. Who is to say? Fake, but...accurate?

120 Surely this dame wouldn't be the only one happy to testify that Abe knocked his lip onto the horns of a goat prior to his apprehension.

121 Think of how lawfare is incentivizing both our enemies and us.  Attack civilians, we'll give you more due process rights and a greater ability to propagandize your cause.  As to our soldiers, we will stab you in the back at a moment's notice and, further, give special leeway to officers like Hasan.  Reads real well, doesn't it.

122

pokes head in, sneaks out

there is no fucking way i'm commenting here

okay, one thing thats been missed....njp) to award punishment the co needs a proponderous (sp) of guilt, and CM is where all rules of evidence applies

i see this getting tossed before the trial

oh, and horatius, stop that don't join the navy crap, some of us can spell and don't have to keep walking down the hall (vets, you know what i'm saying, heh)

123 It's their commanders fault.  Fire the commander in chief...

124

Not being a lawyer, or in one of the Sea Services, but having dealt with issues like this, here is the probable scenario:  The captured douchebag complained to a bunch of people, probably saying it was much worse than it was.  Someone took an interest in the complaint, either as a do-gooder (people shouldn't do stuff like that) or an axe to grind (I hate those spec ops guys, this war, etc).  That person drops it in official channels, either through JA, IG, Chain of Command.  Questions get asked (lots of people who should know better panic when they get read their rights in an investigation, especially if they didn't know it was coming).  Either the chain of command decide to go with NJP to avoid Abu Ghraib echoes (we know how much the media LOVES the military)--they took action so the media can't go on and on about cover-up, or someone in the JA or Chain of Command decided to make an example of folks.  The problem here is the political environment (Abu Ghraib and Haditha most vividly).  Too many senior officers looking for their next promotion, especially at the GO/Flag level, do what is most politically expedient.  They don't want the press to torpedo their chances.

125

Can charges of dereliction of duty be brought against the assholes not defending the men serving under them?  This crap is demoralizing to our troops.  If rationing were ever called for it is the rationing of f---n lawyers.  We need to cut their numbers by about 99%. 

Sure there are some good ones but we wouldn't need so many good ones if we eliminated the pond scum that comprise the majority of them. 

Put the fuckers in uniform and let them earn an honest living in the military for a while.  Thet them see the reality our troops have to deal with in the swamps, deserts and shitholes in which our boys have to fight.  Maybe that would open their eyes.

126 Posted by: navycopjoe at November 24, 2009 06:10 PM (jXmDA)

No, I'm serious. Not too terribly concerned if you like it. Not too terribly concerned at all.

The Navy has a rot in it, more than the other services. Only way it is going to change is by tough love. Of course, familiarity breeds contempt.

Saavy?

127

Maybe they should have shouted Allah Akbar prior to swinging their fists.  Or carried a card that said SOA. 

I don't care if we find out they were trying to cut the fool's tongue out when they busted his lip.  Give them a medal and send them to me.  I always wanted me a SEAL.

128 un...fucking...believable

129 I'm feeling sick about this.  I've actually prosecuted these kind of resultant process crimes and you hate to do it, but that's the law.  I always thought of it as manufactured crime, but we still can't have members lying to commanders.

Posted by: slade at November 24, 2009 04:05 PM (XsHAM)

It is a manufactured crime and no less immoral than they myred number of manufactured crimes cooked up by totalitarian regimes the world over.

I'm glad you came forward and offed us more detail, but what consequences would an average soldier face if he did stand on his Article 31 rights? I'd think that your typical 'chicken shit' officer would go way out of his or her way to make sure that soldier, sailor, or airman would have a very miserable existence under his command, to the point that article 31 rights are little more than a paragraph in the UCMJ.

130 while at Ft Sam in '92, i had occasion to stop by and see the local JAG that had an office in my BN regarding some pending BS.  he told me that he was very familiar with my case, as he had discussed what charges were appropriate with my Drill, and that i should just go ahead and take the Art-15 (NJP) as it was nothing more than a sort of reprimand, and no big deal. 

i respectfully declined his advice, and the next day at the academy, went and talked to the school JAG, a full bird with crossed arrows on his collar and a CIB.  he told me the charges against me were bogus, and was *very* interested in the fact that the defense JAG was helping set the charges against his clients. since this was a AIT environment, few of the victims had any knowledge of what few rights you have under UCMJ, and this asshat was railroading them.  so, not only did i not get screwed, but i actually got to screw a lifer that had it coming in the process. %-)

131 The more I think about it, the more convinced I am this is pre-emptive by the brass against the media (stars before bros).  This guy is a high value asset, which probably means he's going to Gitmo, which probably means he's going to be tried in the US as a common criminal, thanks to our current Commander-in-Chief (as an aside, we in the military, are probably going to get the TALK that we got during the Clinton years within the next 6 months--stop pointing out that the commander-in-chief is a dumbass because the media loves him and will make a big fuss over it).  At some point, a defense attorney is going to be looking to make a name for himself and cry a river over how this poor, misunderstood, simple goatherder was minding his own business, not bothering anyone, when these EVIL American mercinaries swooped out of nowhere and maliciously beat him for no reason.  Where were the commanders?  Why didn't they take any action?  Why did they allow this behavior?  The brass probably thinks waving a NJP is going to save them from the media.  It isn't and all it does it makes those under them trust them less. This might become a huge story with the MSM in hopes of creating the perfect hattrick: another Abu Ghraib, blaming Bush for Obama's indecisiveness on Afghanistan, and obscuring Climategate.

132 Yep.  Horse shit.  What the fuck is the point of risking your ass when the officers above you, many of whom are merely politicians in uniform, are unwilling to get your back.  We will never win another war with the bullshit that we force upon our own troops.

133 Oh, and no matter the outcome of the trial, the navy has ruined the careers of these guys as well as much of their chain of command.  All because of a fat lip.

134 This crap either gets dropped or it goes viral and we have the start of the revolution going forward.

135 I do have to say theyat instead of lying about what they did, they should have refused to speak about it.  Giving the terrorist a bloody lip may have been OK, but lying about it to investigators was not OK.  They should have taken Admirals masts.  Bad gamble.

136

Carried over from another thread:

United States Central Command declined to discuss the detainee, but a legal source told FoxNews.com that the detainee was turned over to Iraqi authorities, to whom he made the abuse complaints. He was then returned to American custody. The SEAL leader reported the charge up the chain of command, and an investigation ensued.

What the fuck?  Did this guy suddenly get a case of the PCs?

Why did he even bother to report this shit? Who the hell cares if the little hadji got a bloody lip. I'd have probably made him eat the butt of my weapon until he shit pieces of it.

This isn't the first time the military has screwed its own.

The recent Courts Martial of Army 1SG John Hatley comes to mind.

We should stop taking prisoners. ThereÂ’s no point in it. The enemies we capture get more condolence from a sympathetic media than the bravery it took to capture them.

137 Seals got balls, regardless of the battlefield. I wish these guys nothing but the best. They are not afraid of Hadji, and they are not afraid of brass.

138

Hey lawyer dudes, fuck you.

You give them impossible ROE and then pontificate from you safe warm office about how dare the grunts tell a lie. Did I say fuck you? Fuck you, just in case you missed it the first time.

Fuck you again.

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140 If anyone bothers to pay attention to me, I'm sure someone will bash what I said.

But my basic idea of what should happen is that a SEAL is pissed that this guy murdered good people, and gave him a well justified punch.  Perhaps the terrorist said something ugly, or the SEAL's buddy was hurt, whatever.  He let emotions get the better of him because he loves his country, and fucked up this terrorist's lip.  His commander lectured him for a while and gives him a shit detail, perhaps a seriously lousy detail, or otherwise slaps him on the wrist.

If the terrorist is even telling the truth about being punched, which is hard to accept, then I just don't see what's wrong with this situation.  If the punishment goes to the level where the SEAL's career is hampered... if he's even reduced in rank or passed over on promotion, that is overkill.  We should want our trained killers to want to hit terrorists, of course.

141 "We should stop taking prisoners. ThereÂ’s no point in it."

Yep.  This is a serious fucking strategic mistake, though.  Waterboarding terrorists saved Los Angeles from a 9/11 style attack.  I assume, I think with great justification, that capturing terrorists in Iraq and elsewhere, gave us tons and tons of intelligence that saved a lot of lives.

We aren't going to get that intel anymore, and it's stupid to capture these people to spend millions trying them in courts or feeding them and buying them neat Korans and laptops before we release them back to the battlefield.  Just leave them dead, sadly, is the only way to deal with them, and that could lead to a huge disaster in the coming years.

142 Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

143 Said it before, and i'll say it again. One in the head and ditch the stinkin flea bitten corpse. Dead scumbags, can't cry to liberal asshats.

144

The word of three SEALS trumps the word of one terrorist shitbag.

who saw the lip pop? No One? who says it happened? an iraqi?, the terrorist? Are there pictures or video's of said lip pop? who are the witnesses who saw what happened?

Looks open and shut to me, three sailors word aginst the word of an enemy murderer who killed and burned American's and hung their bodies from a bridge who has just been captured by the same SEALS.

Whoops, I forgot Barry Sortero, AKA Barack Hussain Obama POTUS (PBUH) is in charge any action by our military is considered illegal. 

145 Boys, from now on, just kill the bad guy. If he slips on the way in, you will be charged, and if you capture him, the libs will let him go to fight again....

We are asking for perfection from young heroes risking their lives for E4 and E5 pay.  Shame on us, we do not deserve their efforts...

146 Lets all look up that photo of the charred corpses of the Blackwater mercenaries...ooops, I'm taking like NBC, Barry, John Kerry or John Murtha...

How about looking at the photo of the AMERICANS killed, burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah. Just look at it for a solid minute.

Let these young heroes go to continue their magnificent service to our country, and lets put this terrorist on trial for his life.

147 Forgive me a 3rd comment, I can't resist:

We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm

148

We need to start a lobbying effort to pass a law that when soldiers are prosecuted for combat related actions and acquitted, the commander who intitiated the process and the prosecutors must be tried for treason. 

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