1 It turns out that there are substantial difficulties involved with this type of geothermal tech. And not just mechanical. Apparently it can cause earthquakes.

Earthquakes?  In California?  What could possibly go wrong?

2 Apparently it can cause earthquakes.

Greenies are allowed to destroy Gaia because they're better than us.

3 This is so like, a non-issue. Let's get back to discussing Tiger Woods with all due speed!

4 Geotherm is great.  On a small scale.  In northern climes.  Other than that it's mental masturbation.  There are only so many uses for a 54 degree hole in the ground.

5 "Earthquakes produced in Basel" - this passive voice is annoying. We need context - -And that's here: "The projectÂ’s apparent collapse comes a day after Swiss government officials permanently shut down a similar project in Basel, because of the damaging earthquakes it produced in 2006 and 2007. " Gulp. Apparently you can catalyse an earthquake just by drilling. If I'm reading this right, then Dr Evil can install Giant Freakin Lasers in downtown LA and, you know, like totally end civilisation, dude.

6 Let's get back to discussing Tiger Woods with all due speed!

Do you know why Tiger carries make-up in his pocket?  To repair ballmarks.

7 Earthquakes? In California? What could possibly go wrong? If I did not have family in the East Bay area; absolutely bloody nothing. Subotai Bahadur

8 In northern climes.

Speaking of which, I still cannot figure out what's so bad about global warming.  Seriesly.  Can I haz global warming plz?

9 Curses, you foiled me again, Superman!

10 Don't you ignorant rubes know the interior of the Earth is millions of degrees?

11
It warms my heart when Obama/Libtards FAIL.
Don't blame me- I voted for Capitalism.

12 Ok, anyone wanna start an 'energy' company?

Apparently it doesn't take any reporting or, you know, results.

I figure it'll take an experimental rig of some kind, 2 'engineers', some clipboards, and a grant writer.

13 That geothermal steam at the Geysers is loaded with sulfuric acid and all sorts of corrosive and toxic chemicals. The price of removing all the bad stuff makes it uneconomical.

14 Greenies are allowed to destroy Gaia because they're better than us.

Greenies are trying to shut down natural-gas drilling projects in NY citing the dangers of fracking, but fracking from geothermal is completely acceptable...how can anyone take the movement more seriously than you'd take a toddler offering to make dinner on a play kitchen is beyond me.

(OTOH, if all the Earth's internal heat dissipates into the atmosphere...what will happen?  And how will that be better than carbon dioxide?  I'm pretty sure no one knows.)

15 10 Don't you ignorant rubes know the interior of the Earth is millions of degrees?

Posted by: TallDave at December 12, 2009 05:05 PM (+3aaV)

OK, here's a funny story:  My grandfather used to insist that styrofoam generates its own heat.

Yeah, I know. 

Anyway, even after being mercilessly mocked, he stuck to this idea for years even though he probably didn't even believe it anymore himself.  In his old age, he was one of those guys who delivered the new phone books.

So one of my cousins got him a gift.  In a box, packed in styrofoam peanuts, was a phone book charred with burn marks all over it.  When my grandfather opened it, my cousin said, "Oh, no, I shouldn't have packed it in styrofoam."

Yes, mean, but damned funny.

Al Gore reminds me of my grandfather.

16 In northern climes.

Speaking of which, I still cannot figure out what's so bad about global warming.

It's colder than Elin Nordegren's black Scandi heart here.  Not as cold as the intense hatred in her ice-blue eyes, however.  That comes in January.

17 No such thing as a free lunch.

18 17 No such thing as a free lunch.

Posted by: rawmuse at December 12, 2009 05:13 PM (MelQB)

You lie!

19 The Air Vent has a report that the Associated Asinine Press assigned five reporters incompetent hacks to determine that Climategate ain't no big thang.  This is the same arm of the government propaganda ministry that assigned 11 rporters to "fact check" Sarah Palin's book.  Way to go AP!  The joke that calls itself "journalism" won't earn any credibility on your account.

20 10 Don't you ignorant rubes know the interior of the Earth is millions of degrees?

Posted by: TallDave at December 12, 2009 05:05 PM (+3aaV)

Ummmm, yes -- I do...and your point is what, genius?

21 How is Tiger different from Santa?

??????? highlight answer ....

Santa stops after three ho's.

22 I am using your tax dollars to have shirtless men drill miles into hard rock. . . Releasing hot creamy magma!

23 So the geothermal miracle is proving more difficult than the Hahavahd geniuses figured.  Maybe that is why real engineers had not done this already.

Another day, another dead unicorn.

24 CHANGE!!!

25 Imagine the hue and cry if it had been evil Exxon who was drilling down into the hot water rocks and caused earthquakes.  The eco-commies would be screaming for jail time.

From what I understand of these types of energy generating sites, it only works in places like Iceland where the hot regions are close to the surface.  This would probably work great in Yellowstone until they caused that massive caldera to finally explode and destroy 3/4 of the country.

These stupid eco-projects not only cost huge times more than the more conventional energy generation projects, but they don;t work at all most of the time.

26 If only there was a plentiful, easily refinable substance that could be extracted from the earth that would provide energy for power and transportation.

27 To be fair, the Geysers have been providing geothermal power for many years. You do get a lot of dry holes when you look for new sources, through...

28 Ummmm, yes -- I do...and your point is what, genius?

Posted by: billygoat at December 12, 2009 05:18 PM (DrB2V)

Is this ignorance or some cutting-edge sockpuppetry I'm not hip enough to understand?

29

I worked on a project back in the late seventies for the University of Texas at Austin on geopressured geothermal. We had geothermal people from New Zealand working with us. I was a project geologist.

Short answer on viability: no fricking way. Corrosion, major H2S problems, bad news all around.

30 Didn't they see the movie Armageddon? The drill bits always break.

31 30 Didn't they see the movie Armageddon? The drill bits always break.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at December 12, 2009 05:35 PM (RZ8pf)

Not the diamond bits. But they cost more than Tiffany's.

32 Dammit, now we can't split California off into the Pacific as planned.

33 Geothermal is an interesting technology with a lot of potential. That said, it's very silly to presume geothermal can provide a substantial contribution to the pool of American energy sources in the short term. Instead of the fantasy plans of silly Greens, all American energy sources should be exploited including off shore oil and gas fossil fuels. Drill baby drill!

34 Drill baby drill!

Posted by: Brad at December 12, 2009 05:40 PM (peVG0)

I'm doing my bit. But with the fuckheads in Washington, who knows for how long.

35 Dr Evil can install Giant Freakin Lasers in downtown LA and, you know, like totally end civilisation, dude.

There's civilization in LA?

36

Of course, you can use thermal properties of the land, sea and air in other ways.  Like at Keahole Point on the Big Island of Hawaii, where the Natural Energy Lab uses seawater from 4,000 feet deep to act as the heat sink to run a Sterling engine that generates electricity.

Or using the natural coolness of shallow subterranean soils for a similar purpose.

Hey, I know!  Why not build power stations at geothermal vents at the bottom of the Atlantic, where the heat just comes right out of the crust, right next to a massive heat sink?  Probably technically easier than drilling geothermal wells - though I doubt there are enough vents to go around.

37 Of course, you can use thermal properties of the land, sea and air in other ways.

Toronto uses Lake Ontario for air-conditioning.

I'm not sure how cost-effective it is, but it is novel.

38 Most geothermal projects are little more than mining, with hot water being the resource instead of minerals. The Geysers/Clear Lake in California is one of the few places in the world where you can get "dry steam", steam so hot that there's no liquids involved. When you have liquid water, ideally you want to flash the water to steam, then pump it back down into the ground. But flashing has a side effect of all the minerals that were in solution get deposited in the pipes and the flash tank. Fun stuff like arsenic, antimony, and heavy metals. Stuff that produced by any other industrial process would be called "toxic waste." So so-called "hot rock" has been an attempt to go deeper into these water systems and tap into the steam before it can condense into water, and pick up these contaminants. (BUt as mentioned earlier, you still get fun stuff like H2S and SO2). Since The Geysers is steam all the way to the surface, and heavily exploited already, it makes for the best test case. And if it can't work there, that means it probably won't work anywhere else. (One of the side effects of geothermal exploitation is that it destroys the surface hot springs. These springs all support their own little ecosystems, and because they are so isolated, are often quite different from one place to another. Ecosystems which, in protected places like Yellowstone NP, have produced new biochemical processes and products. Sorta like how/why we are supposed to "save the rain forest", because who knows what beneficial life might be lurking there. If any other industrial process would destroy an entire ecosystem, the Gaian dirt worshipers would be all over having it shut down. But, here again, we have another example of their religious hypocrisy and expediency.)

39

Hey, I know!  Why not build power stations at geothermal vents at the bottom of the Atlantic, where the heat just comes right out of the crust, right next to a massive heat sink?  Probably technically easier than drilling geothermal wells - though I doubt there are enough vents to go around.

Posted by: stuiec at December 12, 2009 05:46 PM (Ate22)

I couldn't even begin to tell you the incredible expense, engineering problems and dangers of doing that.

Besides, with trillions of tons of coal and everything else, we don't have an electrical generation problem. We have a political problem.

Why don't we just dump the scumbags in Congress into the midAtlantic rift?

It's a lot cheaper.

40 There is no magic energy source.

41 40 There is no magic energy source.

Posted by: toby928 at December 12, 2009 05:53 PM (PD1tk)

But there are cheap energy sources. Coal, for example.

42 gee and I of course assumed that EVERY green project would be easy and lucrative

43 gee and I of course assumed that EVERY green project would be easy and lucrative well we can just continue to rely on our good friends in Saudi Arabia for our energy needs

44 But there are cheap energy sources. Coal, for example.

Indeed.  And cheap energy is the driver of prosperity (besides private property and free markets obviously).  I actually think we would be better off subsidizing energy usage rather than taxing it.

45 We don't get electricity from Saudi Arabia.

46 And John ryan comes out for drill here drill now.  Excellent. 

Stopped clocks, blind hogs and John ryan.

47

Posted by: toby928 at December 12, 2009 05:56 PM (PD1tk)

Since Colonel Drake's well in 1859, America has produced over 100 billion barrels of its own oil, and many trillion cubic feet of gas. Almost all that oil and gas was very cheap, and it has driven our economy and enriched all of us tremendously.

48 This is what I do to get filthy rich....stand up a company promising renewable energy riches. pay myself handsomely with investor money, lobbby government, pay myself handsomely with government money, run into unfirseeable technical difficulties, go BK, and spend investor and government money on self. wash rinse repeat

49 45 We don't get electricity from Saudi Arabia.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 12, 2009 05:57 PM (OkT2m)

Not entirely. Some of our electric generation comes from oil (mostly on the east coast, whre it is imported from the Saudis and others), but more is from gas, and the majority of our electricity (52%) comes from inexpensive coal.

And Obama wants to stop coal, the dumb little prick.

50 gee and I of course assumed that EVERY green project would be easy and lucrative

Sure, not everything's going to pan out. But you should be concerned that among all your fairy-dust energy programs not even one is remotely fit to produce cheap, reliable, large-scale power.

51 (One of the side effects of geothermal exploitation is that it destroys the surface hot springs. These springs all support their own little ecosystems, and because they are so isolated, are often quite different from one place to another. Ecosystems which, in protected places like Yellowstone NP, have produced new biochemical processes and products. Sorta like how/why we are supposed to "save the rain forest", because who knows what beneficial life might be lurking there.

If any other industrial process would destroy an entire ecosystem, the Gaian dirt worshipers would be all over having it shut down. But, here again, we have another example of their religious hypocrisy and expediency.)

Posted by: Raoul Ortega at December 12, 2009 05:50 PM (GUxTi)

I think you give them too much credit. I think they are just plain stupid. I bet if you explained this to a group of greens, they'd stare at you like you had sprouted a third eye.

52 And the single largest provider of oil to the US is Canada.

53 Well well well, GOOGLE was one of the backers. They should have Googled up some facts on it -- wait --

54 Ace had us at "1) Liberals Eco-ninnies just suck," Gabe. Now you're just piling on.

55 DOE spokeshole:

“The Department of Energy believes that geothermal energy holds enormous potential to heat our homes and power our economy while decreasing our carbon pollution,”

Yes --

carbon pollution

56 #53 -- that was a VERY ancient sockpuppet

57

The geothermal thing hasn't worked out so well, but the Energy Department is plowing money into a much more promising form of clean energy generation.  It's called magic. As an attractive side benefit, it is expected to produce unicorns and skittles in great abundance.

Algore says the science is absolutely settled.

58 I need to cleanse Safari of this lingering sockpuppet. So raoul ortega, that was one hell of a post @38.

59

This administration is turning into an SNL episode. Think Emily Litella, "Never mind..."

This current government is an advanced case of the idiocy of leftism. For them it's all about their wonderful intentions. They are the prototype for the Underwear Gnomes.

1. Good intentions.

2. ??

3. Utopia.

60 Meanwhile our future miltary and economic adversary is growing like a weed and burning coal and oil like there's no tomorrow and kicking our ass economically while we blather on about switchgrass and wind turbines.

61 ...could be done quickly and economically with small improvements in existing methods

mmmm, we been drilling into the ground for methane, oil, and water for how long now? and they thought there was a quick easy advancement that hadn't been tried already?   Sorry, just can't bring myself to hurl insults, I sell prototype systems to tards exactly like this.

62 I know someone who worked at the last great Democrap energy magic project.  This one was located in Baton Rouge, LA and it was supposed to produce synthetic oil from coal.

The were paid huge suns of government grants for every day it operated and they received huge tax breaks for building it and operating it (major company).

The day the subsidies and tax breaks ran out they shut it down and within a month the entire plant had been dismantled and bulldozed over.  It had never been anything more than a cash cow to milk money from the tax payers.

63 Let's just tap the Copenhagen conference for its hot air. Start with Al Goracle.

/obligatory

64 So the taxpayers are going to get that $25 million back, right?  Hahahahahahaha!!!!1

65

Al Gore reminds me of my grandfather.

Posted by: AmishDude at December 12, 2009 05:11 PM (ItSLQ)

I'm sure your grandfather is significantly smarter than Weird Al.

66 Thanks, TexasJew, I didn't realize people used oil for electricity.  Why?

I've lived in towns in Iowa that have burned garbage and corncobs in their electric plants, but the bulk was coal. 

I like nuke plants, personally.

67 I read in Popular Science that this was easy as slicing into brownies. The SCIENCE is settled, and what's a few earthquakes as long as they don't affect me here in Playa Del Rey?

Drill, baby, drill!

Oops! Did I say that? I bid myself adieu

68
barry's plan to use  unicorn horns to split the atoms inside Skittles just needs a few improvements before providing millions of work at home green jobs.

69 Or...we could build small nuclear plants across the country in order to support our domestic electricity needs, thus freeing up coal and oil for other uses and correspondingly dropping their cost. But who am I to suggest such a thing????

Thar's steam in them thar hills!

70 Oops! Did I say that? I bid myself adieu

Posted by: Charles John's son at December 12, 2009 06:25 PM

For the benefit of the new Lizards I've imported from Mexico;

Para se yo habla, adios!

71 I recharge the batteries of my vibrator through static electricity created by rubbing my crotch with my pants on.

Static electricity... google it!

72

Good thing they weren't drilling in Yellowstone, 'cause they probably would have set off that massive* volcanic eruption they are predicting there.

* massive, as in taking out 1/3rd of the U.S.

73 Thanks, TexasJew, I didn't realize people used oil for electricity.  Why?

We don't use oil in this country for generation of electricity. Hawaii is the only State that uses oil for electricity and they have special considerations.

In this country 50% from coal, about 20% from natural gas, 20% from Nuclear, and the rest between hydro and oil. A very small fraction comes from the exotic shit the greens are pushing.

Or...we could build small nuclear plants across the country in order to support our domestic electricity needs....

I think we have had this conversation before.   Small doesn't make it any cheaper, in fact it has the opposite effect under the current rules and regulations.  There is a reason that most new coal plant (and the nuke plants of the 80s) were built at 1000 MW or greater.

The gas turbine plants being built are small, but that is a very different story all together.

74 I used to live just a few miles from The Geysers. They had a funky old geothermal plant there that used steam from the pressurized subsurface water.  They actually got quite a bit of power out of it, but had problems with the water carrying up all sorts of dissolved nasties, including very high levels of arsenic.  A few years ago, either the aquifer dried up or the hot spot moved and it kind of petered out.  Last I heard the plant had to be declared a toxic waste site.
But apparently, not satisfied with that, they decided to go back and make earthquakes like a sort of Green Energy Blofelt.  Amusing.

75 72

Good thing they weren't drilling in Yellowstone, 'cause they probably would have set off that massive* volcanic eruption they are predicting there.

* massive, as in taking out 1/3rd of the U.S.

Posted by: w'evver at December 12, 2009 06:37 PM

Is that the 1/3 bitter losers clinging to their guns and religion?

I would like to hear more on this, please call Joe Biden for Stimulus Funding

76 72

Good thing they weren't drilling in Yellowstone, 'cause they probably would have set off that massive* volcanic eruption they are predicting there.

* massive, as in taking out 1/3rd of the U.S.

Posted by: w'evver at December 12, 2009 06:37 PM

As long as it takes out all those icky Jesus people, I'm cool with that

77 gee and I of course assumed that EVERY green project would be easy and lucrative

Name ONE that is, Jellybrain.

78

Good thing they weren't drilling in Yellowstone, 'cause they probably would have set off that massive* volcanic eruption they are predicting there.

* massive, as in taking out 1/3rd of the U.S.

Gee, how many Priuses will we have to drive to offset that carbon footprint?

79 Actually, America's largest wind farm, located in Oregon.

Contrary to what the green idiots want, wind farms will NEVER make up more than a very small fraction of the generation mix. The problem is that the output from one of those turbines varies too much in frequency and power.

If we tried to tie in more than a small fraction of them it would setup unacceptable grid instability. Of course you can not explain that to one of those eco-idiots.

80 One other thing about those wind turbines. Unless they have changed drastically in the past 10 years or so you do not want to live within 5 miles of one of them. My old company put up one in the mountains of NC a few years ago and everyone who lived within a 5 mile radius complained about the noise.  We had to dismantle it.

81

I live here.  I'm looking out my window at Geyser Peak.  I had lunch yesterday in Geyserville.  My Uncle worked at the Geysers for many years.  The earthquake issue is real, but the quakes are tiny.  It is an issue for those who live in the exceedingly tiny communities up in the mountains, but I'm talking homesteads...for the rest of us, we rarely notice the quakes, as they're below the threshold of feeling them.  Once in a while, it's a shake; usually it's like a big truck just drove past the house, a rumbling and faint shake.  Often you aren't even sure it was a quake, and you look to see if the lights are swaying a bit or not, to confirm that you thought you felt a quake.  Yes, there are more micro quakes due to injecting wastewater down into the hot zone to produce steam (Santa Rosa's effluent is pumped 30+ miles and injected) and drilling can set off micro quakes as well, but really, these are not the quakes you see knocking down buildings and bridges.  I've been through a few of those, and through many of the micro quakes.

As for geothermal energy, there are few places that can actually do what we do here at the Geysers, and only so much energy can be produced.  The Geysers is the largest geothermal project in all of California, yet can only produce 7-10% of the energy the PG&E uses to supply the state.  It's not going to increase, as this failure proves.  It's a good thing, but it's very very limited.

82 If the wind dies down, can't we just get a bunch of people to stand near it and blow on the windmills?

See, green energy is the future!

83 Ummmm, yes -- I do...and your point is what, genius? The point is that you're almost as smart as Al Gore. Sorry to put it so bluntly.

84 I work as a geologist (in mining actually) and I have friends who do geothermal.  In Nevada.  Where it makes lots of sense (thinner crust and all meaning shorter holes for the same temps).  Reno currently gets a lot of its power from geothermal (the Steamboat springs geothermal plant) and there are many in Nevada that work very well.  They aren't all stars and rainbows though- every hotspring located near one of these has dried up- and the Geysers too.  There were some pretty cool geysers at steamboat hotsprings before they drilled, same with near Beowawe (in northeastern NV) but they are gone now.  In short- Geothermal can make sense- but the economics have to make sense first.  And there are a lot of things that will make local residents pissy- like the smell for example...  The problem comes in when Politics gets involved with science (again). 

85 he Geysers is the largest geothermal project in all of California, yet can only produce 7-10% of the energy the PG&E uses to supply the state.

I would be very much surmised if the geothermal stuff made as much as .5% of CA electricity.

86 No unobtainium? Sure the problem isn't with the proud, wise indigenous tribal peoples of the area who resent our suffocating and murdering colonial policies?

I say we find these Lake County bastard's Home Tree and send em a little shock and awe love. Airmail.

87 Huh... who'd of thought that a multi-million dollar unproven, untested project that failed obtain adequate funding through selling public or private stock would fail after being funded by the federal government and cheer-leading from Teh Goracle?

Here's a tip, leftards: rich people don't invest in projects that are doomed to failure. It's not 'cause corporations and rich people are eeeeeeevil!!!111eleventy. It's because the projects are money pits.

Yup, the next 3 years of having unemployable pinkos that think research and irrefutable proof are found on wikipedia run the world will be great.

Where is Der Uber Job Czar to shake his finger at the evil AltaRock for this loss of American jobs? Is AltaRock messin' w/ Joe?

88 Don't the wind farms disrupt avian migration patterns?  In addition to driving everyone who lives near them insane with the noise, and pissing off Kennedys with the view (wait, that last one's a positive..strike that last one).

89 OK, I found a paper written in March of this year that said the geothermal output in CA was currently 1770 MW (about 2 medium sized nuke output). The paper said that they accounted for 4.5% of CA electricity so I am surprised.

They hid all this crap under a generaic "renenwables" tab that you had to dig through.

The other thing that is confusing is that I know that CA imports a significant portion of its electricity from NV and WA and I am not sure if they have accounted for that in their numbers.

IOW, is that 4.5% the fraction of electricity generated in CA or the fraction of the load used in CA.  There is a big difference.

90

84 If the wind dies down, can't we just get a bunch of people to stand near it and blow on the windmills?

See, green energy is the future!
-

What about the carbon dioxide sequestration. Breathing is filthy dirty pollution.

91

52 And the single largest provider of oil to the US is Canada.

Thank you Waterhouse! For FINALLY spreading the WORD!

And as someone else said, there isn't an energy crisis, there's a lack of political will. Spineless politicians (of many stripes) would rather obey poll numbers than build a nuclear power plant. (the cheapest, cleanest power anywhere, ever)

92 Don't the wind farms disrupt avian migration patterns?

Supposedly that problem has been fixed.

93 Actually in the long term hydro is the cheapest source where you can build one. Nukes come in second, provided they are ran by a company that knows what it is doing. The next cheapest is combined cycle gas turbine and then coal.

The reason nat gas prices has been exploding over the last 10 years is because combined cycle gas turbine and gas turbine peaking units are the only things that have been built when anything is built.

In actuality we mostly haven't been building anything. If it had not been for this huge recession we probably would have been having some more blackouts in CA and the NE this past summer. Particularly when WA had their heat wave.

94 Don't the wind farms disrupt avian migration patterns?

Supposedly that problem has been fixed.

Posted by: Vic at December 12, 2009 07:40 PM (CDUiN)

By killing all the birds?  End of problem!!

95

84 If the wind dies down, can't we just get a bunch of people to stand near it and blow on the windmills?

See, green energy is the future!
-

What about the carbon dioxide sequestration. Breathing is filthy dirty pollution.

Posted by: Jimmah at December 12, 2009 07:39 PM

Wow, does that mean I have to cut my acceptance speeches down to under one hour? How will I let the people know how important it is to go green?

96

It turns out that there are substantial difficulties involved with this type of geothermal tech. And not just mechanical. Apparently it can cause earthquakes.

Newsflash - I discovered today that if I bang my head against the wall repeatedly, not only will I not knock the wall down, I will also give myself a headache.

Not as large a headache as trying to understand any purported logic used by John Ryan. But still, its a headache.

97 95 Actually in the long term hydro is the cheapest source where you can build one. Nukes come in second, provided they are ran by a company that knows what it is doing. The next cheapest is combined cycle gas turbine and then coal.
Posted by: Vic at December 12, 2009 07:46 PM (CDUiN) You are very wrong. Coal is by far the cheapest. Nuclear is quite expensive, and hydro is saturated - it has been finished as a source for decades. I don't know where you get your info on nuclear and gas being cheaper than coal. Coal is the largest source because it is the cheapest source, until they triple its cost with that stupid CO2 sequestration bullshit.

98 You are very wrong. Coal is by far the cheapest. Nuclear is quite expensive, and hydro is saturated - it has been finished as a source for decades. I don't know where you get your info on nuclear and gas being cheaper than coal. Coal is the largest source because it is the cheapest source, until they triple its cost with that stupid CO2 sequestration bullshit.

I get my info from having worked for a major utility for 30 years and looking at the actual cost numbers every quarter.  Coal, under the current rules is NOT the cheapest by far and that has nothing to do with stupid CO2 bullshit which had not been implemented at the time I retired.

99 And hydro is NOT saturated except politically.

100 I will grant one thing on those costs, they do vary from one section of the country to another. Obviously if you live next to a low sulfur coal mine it will be cheaper than if you have to get it via rail from 1000 miles away.

But that isn't enough to significantly change the bottom line generation cost.

101

One day, when the 'high temperature superconducter' is perfected (or found), then geo-thermal will work. We'll drill deep, to the really hot stuff far far below. Send a line of superconducter (about as big as fishing line) down there and put the other end in a steam turbine system.

Presto! Endless, cleanest energy ever!

However, the current set of 'green' projects do nothing whatsoever to move in that direction. If anything, they distract.

Until that magic day, nuclear! is the only real 'clean' choice. Coal may be a touch cheaper, but much dirtier, eh? Hydro is pretty good, except all the best sites are already in use...

102 Petrobras is currently attempting to build itself up into the largest petroleum supplier in the West.  Staggering sums are being spent on exploration, drilling, and infrastructure to do so.  George Soros is strongly behind it.  How strongly?  About 1/3 of his fund is in Petrobras.
And guess who is one of the major contributors to anti-drilling ecofreak organizations in America?
George Soros.
A coincidence, I'm sure.
And it's funny how he has massively shorted the American dollar while throwing cash at the politicians and organizations that are attempting to tax and spend America into oblivion.
The guy is like a real life Lex Luthor.

103 21How is Tiger different from Santa?

??????? highlight answer ....

Santa stops after three ho's.

I am totally offended and amused by this comment. Firstly, ho's are politicians and lobbyists, the women Tiger met up with do not qualify as such - demonstrating that he has some taste in his ethical lapses. Secondly, any joke involving Santa and "ho's" is guarantied gold.

104 TexasJew, I'm in the deepwater exploration side of the business.  Your comment at 60 is dead on.  We're bringing a ship from Angola to Singapore for a rebuild come the new year.  Angola's Block  31 is absolute gold and the Chicoms came up with brilliant strategy; they took over the shipping to and from Angola thru cheap contracts and "dash" (bribes).  Then the visas for expats began to dry up so key personnel are missing from rigs.  We have trouble getting equipment, keeping enough people to operate, have to shuffle folks around to different rigs, hold people over when their hitch is complete, etc.  The Chinese want the oil to stay in the ground until they can take over the leases awarded to Western outfits 10-15 years ago.  They think long term, are very patient and are not constrained by ethics or bribery laws.  It is warfare by other means, make no mistake. 

105 Even in failure the liberals fail. 

If the geothermal project triggers earthquakes, that is a good thing.  Note that it cannot cause earthquakes.  Earthquakes are caused by the buildup of stress due to plate tectonics.  California is on its way towards Alaska.  Earthquakes are sudden release of the energy when the highly stressed rocks fracture.  Now you can have a lot of little earthquakes that release the energy in small amounts, or you can have no earthquakes for a long time and build up a huge amount of stress for a big one.  If geothermal projects can be demonstrated to trigger a bunch of little earthquakes, that would be a good reason to build them all along the major faults.  

But of course the liberals cannot pass a law that would release the project from liability for earthquakes.  The lawyers would be upset.

106 45 "We don't get electricity from Saudi Arabia."

Thank heaven for small mercies. But don't some power generators run on petroleum?

107 And guess who is one of the major contributors to anti-drilling ecofreak organizations in America?
George Soros.

I'm convinced that OPEC is the biggest funder of the Sierra Club, et al.

108 Actually, America's largest wind farm, located in Oregon.

Posted by: sTevo at December 12, 2009 06:59 PM (eA3tl)

Is it a new wind farm?  Currently, the largest is in Texas.

109 There are various smaller hydro projects ongoing.  Some are smaller anchored turbines, some in conjunction with lock and dams.

I'm not sure if they are feasible, but Quincy, Illinois is trying to get a $30 million grant, though they are supposed to come up with another $70 million on their own.  Water flow on the Mississippi seems much more consistent than wind power.

110

I've decided to create a green energy company where I'll create power by collecting the farts from retirement home residents across the country.

Give me $25 million now.

111 So that's what caused the earthquake that swallowed up that Scandi kid's stuffed polar bear.

112 If we tried to tie in more than a small fraction of them it would setup unacceptable grid instability. Of course you can not explain that to one of those eco-idiots. Not to mention that if it gets really hot or really cold (ie. when you need the most electricity), the wind stops blowing. Case in point: we have been having quite the cold snap in Oregon, and we have gotten basically no wind generation for the last five and a half days.

113 Mea Culpa: Although I am not convinced that geothermal is useless, it is obviously less useful in the near-term than I thought.

The big future energy winners, in order, are:
1) Coal, oil and (newer, small-scale) nuclear (once political opposition is worn away by high energy costs)
2) Biofuels (though probably more for chemical replacements for petrochemicals than as energy sources. Chemical processes and biochemistry continue to advance this field).
3) Other alternatives like wind in the high north and solar (thermal concentration plants and residential PV's) in the south to service remote locations and to combine with newer battery and other storage technologies and wave/tidal generation.
4) Long term technologies like non-toroidal fusion and space solar arrays.

114 Has anybody checked AltaRock's political donations?

115

By the Powers invested in me as Precedent of the United States , I hereby issue this Executive Order repealing the following laws:

Newton's Laws

The Laws of Thermodynamics, including (and especially) the Zeroeth Law.

Laws are for Chumps.

 

 

116

I've drilled and consulted  for BC Hydro - geothermal in British Columbia. Its quite expensive with the holes ranging from 6 to 10 million apiece. Quite problematic. Most of what you drill through is granite. Hard bits( mining types) drill the granite nicely, but when you survey every 90 feet( no rotary drilling,no mud or air flow-yes we sometimes drill with air, everything sits still) you end up cooking the bearings in the rock bit. This means tripping the pipe for a new bit.Tripping is the removal and the reinsertion of the drillpipe. This takes much of the rig time which can cost up to 50k per day. The mud and/or air systems are extremely expensive.

 Fissures in the granite or hitting underground water sources causes major problems. You have to run casing. You only have so many casing runs and when you use them up, you're done and haven't hit the payzone for steam.

 We start with a 26" surface bit and end up with a 4"  diameter bit.

 One payzone had superheated steam of over 700 degrees and steam pressure at about 2000 psi. You got to know what you're doing.

117

 Another problem we had was the roughnecks beating up the hippies bathing at the hotsprings 10 miles down the road from camp.

118

For what it's worth, as of last year, they're converting geothermal energy into electricity in New Zealand:

http://tiny.cc/geopwr

119 I LOL whenever something like this happens.  Obama the awesomely awesome smartest man EVAH screws up again. 

120 having worked for a major utility for 30 years

Damn Vic, how did you ever last 30 years at a place which is second only to the Federal gubiment in terms of abject dumbfuckery.  I wasted 19 and a half years at one of those fucking dumps before I couldn't take it any more.  Maybe yours was run a bit smarter than mine because I take great pride in the fact that the one that I worked at is no longer in existence, having been taken over by the utility that the "top men" used to hubristically look down their noses at.  That didn't keep those cocksuckers from getting platinum parachutes for having run the company into the fucking ground.  Btw, I got my screen name from a coworker there.

121

Drilling doesn't cause earthquakes. Movement of tectonic plates causes earthquakes. Drilling causes the forces already in the plates to be released causing an earthquake prematurely and probably of a lesser magnitude that it would have been if the stresses in the plates were allowed to continue to build up.

Is Algore an owner of Altarock BTW?

I'll bet a dollar that he's involved somehow financially.

122 normal drilling for oil and gas is drilled thru sedimentery rock which is not hard like granite if an rig hits granite when drilling for oil that is the end of the drilling no hydro carbons are found below granite or basement as it ts called.

123

Paul Kanjorski (donk-Pa)...Made all members of his family hugely rich by trying to convert coal shale to diesel. I mean ALL family members. His niece, the secretary of this dummy corp/scam shop, made 150K/year. They put up a facade for a while, brininging in Scientist after Scientist, the real kind, who all looked at the data/prospectus and concluded unnamimously..WTF?? And these men of science walked away with their credentials intact!.

The Family finally did the same thing as these thieves and said.."wow, this math and science shit is hard". But they too cashed the checks, shrugged and moved to the island they bought.

Please Support Lou Barletta in his third attempt to beat this piece of shit Kanjorski. Barletta is pro "legal" immagration, and an honest Conservative. .

124

Posted by: chicocano at December 12, 2009 09:05 PM (2n5cq)

What sort of API pipe do you use there?

And how do they cope with the corrosion? Do they use stainless steel?

125 Democrats starting to turn on Chris Dodd (VIDEO)

126 Geothermal enthusiasts asserted that drilling miles into hard rock, as required by the technique, could be done quickly and economically with small improvements in existing methods, Professor Schrag said. Ah, yes. Because 'enthusiasts' insist it is so...it must be so. Maybe they'll hold their breath until we all agree.

127       119

      Another problem we had was the roughnecks beating up the hippies     bathing at the hotsprings 10 miles down the road from camp."

Hippies bathing? LOL!

 

128 I suppose these "scientists" collected about $24 million in salary before they abandoned their project, just like Obama's friends in the South Side of Chicago.

129

I hereby ABOLISH all geologic issues relating to drilling into hard rock, ESPECIALLY those raised by drilling Michelle's ass.

Facts are for Chumps.

I, I., I, I, I, I 

I, I., I, I, I, I

I, I., I, I, I, I

I, I., I, I, I, I 

Thank you.

130 Posted by: TexasJew at December 12, 2009 10:47 PM (3xtcs)

Worked on some engineering for a hot geothermal project for a national lab in the early 80's. My recollection was that stainless wasn't good enough when you had 300F brine water, which they unfortunately did have where they were drilling. Stainless steel is CRES - corrosion resistant - not corrosion proof.....  

131

Splain me how drilling for geothermal is more environmentally friendly than drilling for oil.

Does a generator have to be built at each geothermal tap site and how many tap sites do you need to create 100 megawatts?

132 I suppose these "scientists" collected about $24 million in salary before they abandoned their project, just like Obama's friends in the South Side of Chicago.

From the NYT:
"On Friday, the Energy Department, which has put some <B>$440 million</B> into its geothermal program this year alone, said that despite the latest developments, it remained confident of the technologyÂ’s long-term prospects."

Prospects such as in Switzerland, where it caused $9 million in damage to homes and other structures. The Swiss estimated it could cost them $6 million in damage per year.

But not to worry, it's only people's homes and property, say the scientists. It's still doable.

Repeat after me: the science is settled, the science is settled, the science is settled...

133 Damn Vic, how did you ever last 30 years at a place which is second only to the Federal gubiment in terms of abject dumbfuckery.

LOL, it started out as a good place to work but it did decline over the years. I will have to say that the largest part of the decline was due to ever increasing gov regulation.

Our site was a good site compared to most. We had a fairly high return rate for people who would go look for greener pastures.

What I noted was that things would only get bad-bad if they brought in some real asshole to be in charge of the group you worked for. That happened to me twice in 30 years. I managed a transfer out in the first one and in the second one they got rid of the boss fairly quickly.

As far as the "dumbfuckery"  while I was there I didn't see too much of that. As I said we were a pretty good plant. We were running 13 mil/kw when I left (3 year average).  You can't do that and be too dumb.

134 Let me get this straight. 

They've figured out how to trigger earthquakes in California.

......and this is a bad thing?

I think they should expand this program to provide wholesale destruction throughout the blue state regions of the country.

What do you call 500,000 leftists swallowed up by a huge gaping hole in the earth? 

Progress.

135 Alert

Teaparty guy on Fox right now discussing the 2010 elections.

136 LOL,

When the Fox babe (liberal) told him they were hurting the GOP worse than the Dems and what they were going to do; he said their aim was to take over the GOP.

I love it.

137 Sorry wrong thread.

138 Vic,

Hopefully you're reading this on a dead thread.  Working in a plant is probably pretty satisfying in that most of the "real work" of producing the power happens there.  Plus I'm making a guess that you were located in a geographical area where economic growth was occurring and subsequently the demand for electricity was climbing.  I spent a significant time in the rates department of a utility who was building a nuke at a time when the local economy was completely in the tank.  My excuse for a life was spending time in front of the drooling political hacks in the state commission with hat in hand trying to get the whole fucking thing financed.  Meanwhile the execs were doing their damned best to make our task as difficult as possible, mainly by lying out of their asses.  Good times.

I was gone from there when the massive East Coast/Midwest blackout hit.  When Mrs Hate got home she asked me if I thought this was done by terrorism.  I said "Fuck no; this was caused by some asshole at a utility".  When a subsequent news report said that the cause of it was suspected of being in northeast Ohio I said "Oh please God; I don't ask for much but please make this true."  Prayer answered.

139 My excuse for a life was spending time in front of the drooling political hacks in the state commission with hat in hand trying to get the whole fucking thing financed.

I would have pulled out my nails with a pair of rusty pliers before being one of the guys going to the rate commission.  I think I know who you worked for now LOL, will not name any names.  I know how utilities do not like having their names mentioned in any manner they have no control over.

In any case, that blackout you are talking about caused no end of trouble for us from the stupid idiots in the NRC. Now if you want to talk about bumblefucks, there is an organization that fits the bill. Not so much the poor slobs on the ground as the politically appointed idiots that make the orders.

140

Drill bits snapping off?

Hall-i-bur-ton!!!!!!!!

Is there nothing that Dick Cheney will do to sustain his evil reign?  Dick must have used one of these!

http://www.girlgeniusonline

.com/comic.php?date=20090121

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