1 Instead of a farm-implement-feed-and-grain company, let's say...oh...let's say that Joe Smith is the head of a major American auto-maker.

[F]arm-implement-feed-and-grain company owner? Maybe, maybe not. CEO of a "Major American auto maker?' In a heartbeat. And then he'll go on TV to lie through his teeth about it.

2

i live in Virginia's 5th CD.  Virginia's highest unemployment rate (about 20%) is found in one pocket of this district (Martinsville area).

On a conservative blog, we've all been bashing our Pelosi-enabling Congressman (who voted for Obamacare & Cap 'n Trade).  One poster, Donna, was very conservative; decried the welfare state & the taxes that would be necessary to continue it.

One day, Donna posted that family or friends had just lost their job when a plant closed.  Her comment was "what will they do for us?"

I cannot say if I wouldn't have the same attitude as Donna.  But I do know that Bambi & Co. is thrilled that they can subject more of the public to government subsistence.  Then they can make us all wards of the socialist state.

3 I say he'll sign. Why? Government-run education destroying the true meaning of freedom and liberty (and the risks baked into them) for generations.

4

I just read that Bennett lost in the dem. primaries AFTER the Messaih endorsed him.

So, no more Bennett in Colorado.  Read that this opponent took 60% of the dem. primary votes.

5 The problem gets a little clearer when the Government checks start bouncing.

6 Kelley, I think a lot of otherwise conservative people draw a sharp distinction between temporary help to those involved in mass layoffs (Note I didn't say victims, as I don't think they regard themselves that way. At least I hope they don't.) and the work-shy.

It is one thing to expect your state government to help with job retraining, setting up a field office to process multiple hundreds of suddenly laid off workers, that sort of thing; it is another to demand that 4^th or 5^th generation layabouts receive benefits because it makes liberals feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves.

And it is just plain wrong to expect the federal government to get involved.

7 <sup>Went to a local Tea Party yesterday. One of the speakers was our former conservative Republican Congressman who lost his seat in 2008 to a Democrat and is now running to regain it. He told a story of a businessman who was one of his main supporters in 2008.

The businessman is now supporting the Democrat incumbent Congressman. When pressed for a reason, why he is supporting a man who has voted for legislation and loudly proclaims positions which the businessman does not support, his answer was that his business is failing, if it goes under his family and all his employees will suffer. Tough situation as above.

The Democrat Congressman has offered the carrot of money, a contract from the Stimulus Bill funds. The stick is that there must be some Quid pro quo first. Nothing blatant or illegal but, well, you have to scratch his back first. It's just how things are done you know. Chicago rules and all that unspent "Obama money". Rinse, repeat, nationwide.</sup>

8 In a dusty, sepia-toned version, Joe the implement man signs. It is the New Deal. And he will seal his fate. In the film version, he refuses, he is an Okie from Muskogee. In the video-tape version, he enthusiastically signs and heads to WalMart with a sidetrip to the ER to have the Doctor check his kids ears because they have been 'fussy'. And his fate is sealed.

9 Shared on Facebook, Monty. Will be interesting to see the reaction (if any) of my non-moron friends.

10 In the Auto Company Exec scenario, Joe wouldn't have a choice. Substitute Joe for Rick Wagoner.

11

josef K:  i am blessed to not be in a financial bind (as of today).  So I don't know how I would react to the govt. devil with the big checkbook.

 

12 Faced with bankruptcy and ruin for his family he will sign.  And the irony of it all....

The government which has nationalized his business due to the failure caused the failure to begin with.

You see, the thing that was designed to prevent the government from doing that was subverted and maligned through generations of attack by the same people in the government.

The third leg of the government which had usurped the power and authority to protect this safeguard had been subverted by the same people who wanted to see the safeguard destroyed.

The people sat back and allowed this to happen.  Why?  Because in their ignorance they thought that complete universal suffrage with no qualifications was a good thing, even as the founders did not.

So the plunderers voted themselves largess and appointed leaders to subvert the safeguards that prevented that.

In the end there can only be chaos and ruin.

13 let's say that Joe Smith is the head of a major American auto-maker.
Does he sign?

If he's the head of a major American auto-maker.
He was in on the scam, some years ago

14 Mami signed up (in Spanish, of course) and she's not even a citizen. WIC, SNAP, NCLB, free health care. That nice Fr. Pfleger and the AD of Chicago were so helpful. I love America, benefits, they're not just for citizens anymore.

15 I grew up with a lot of "Joes", he wouldn't sign..he would tell the government lackey not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out.

16 If he's a mainstream Republican he signed up already, about 12 years ago.

17

I choose to wager on my own ability, my own ingenuity, and my own effort. Mine, and that of my family and employees.

I'd wager on that too. Except that the government is there to muck up the works with more restrictions, more rules, more roadblocks. Sign the paper. Get the hell out.

18

we have a local very conservative businessman who is supporting the very lib freshman Congressman because of a promise of some tax breaks/incentives/deductions for bio-fuels.  Naturally, any green legislation will destroy the economy, especially the economy of rural Virginia.  But this businessman is looking at his business first.

if we don't elect conservatives now, we'll never have another chance.

19
Bennett voted for the stimulus and for the health care "reform" disaster, huge tax-payer funded , deficit busting non-helpful spending measures.  Then - like a good liar - Bennett's 30 second ad campaign states that he want's to stop all the "out of control Washington spending".  OK.  That doesn't past the laugh test.


Of course Andrew Romanoff (D) won't be any better. He'll campaign as a moderate and then, if elected, move sharply left as another reliable vote for tax increases, spending boondoggles, SEIU give-aways at tax-payer expense, etc...
Another stooge for Pelosi and Obama.

20
A successful man is always a target, a bright color in a monochrome world. A successful man is noticed. He causes the timid man to feel his limitations more acutely. A successful man in a roomful of mediocrities breeds resentment and fear rather than admiration.

Reminds me of the old Neo-Tech ads:

The Traditional Cheater.....................The Neo-Tech Man

Stiff, nervous.................................... Relaxed, confident
...
Causes suspicion with cheating ..........Eliminates suspicion with moves

Fears all opponents............................Fears no one
...
Worries that his cheating will be seen...Knows that Neo-Tech cannot be
seen seen
...
Worries about the consequences.........Knows he cannot be caught

Is negative in every way .....................Appears beneficial in every way

21 right on Vic

22 In today's culture? Over 80% of the Joe's would probably sign.There are too many people depending on him, and no other viable options in a government controlled market. All he needs to do is survive another eight to ten years until his children are raised. He would be buying time until the inevitable crash of the inefficient government monstrosity, and when it does, they will need smart experienced guys like him to dig them out.

23 Oh yeah, the feds are trying to muck up the efforts of BP to disperse the oil slick. That's going to piss Obama off. All that oil hitting Louisiana is good for his schtick. Keeping that boot on the throat of BP there Husseino.

24

It's all good,, I'm here to deliver you all from the clutches of greedy wall street.  Now,, pull my finger and BOW YOUR HEADS!!!!

 

OsamaHusseinIslamObama 2012'

(the terrorist-Uighur-ACORN-media choice)

-It's never too early to campaign-

 

25

Just watched Michael Steele stab Rand Paul in the back on FNS; thanks again to the country club squish Repukes that put this idiot in charge of the fucking party.  Brilliant move.

O/T and since this is a Monty thread I have a book question:  Any morons fans of Charles Stross?  I just started reading Accelerando (at the advice of a non-moron Canuck) and it's pretty good so far.

26 Joe is a racist capitalist and deserves everything to be taken down a few notches.

27

uh oh that Bennett lost.  the OFA, Organizing for America, that "volunteer" arm of the DNC (unemployed liberals & SEIU) had promised to target 2 November races to defend.  One was Bennett's seat.  The other is my freshman Dem Cong:  Perriello 5th CD Va.

damn, i guess we'll have alot of purple shirted persons running around in very rural Virginia.  ya think they'll stick out like sore thumbs?

28 Really great post. This has already been the case (sort of, kind of if you squint) with farmers. My husband's uncle has not farmed his land in so many years, it makes me wonder if he even knows how anymore. He gets about $60000 a year to do nothing. Now, I know the land is his - but I wonder what would happen if he said - no - I am going to farm my 1400 acres this year. What the hell is he being paid for? Who is paying him? I am. You are. We are. That's who.

29 Texas author Elmer Kelton wrote a novel on this theme, "The Time It Didn't Rain," about West Texas ranchers who have to resort to government subsidies during a drought in the 1950s and the one rancher who just won't take money with strings attached.

30 Joe can't make his decision in a vacuum. There are other failing ag supply businesses. If the owners of those businesses sign up with the government devil, then they become protected from their own decisions. They no longer have to worry about making bad business choices. Joe is immediately at a disadvantage should he not sign on.

Its a happy government economy where no business prospers and none die either. Moral hazard is diffused through the entire economy to create a well-organized business community - like  Lake Woebegone where everybody is above average.

31 Entrepreneurs adapt. He doesn't sign, he adjusts his business model.

32

30, possible marketing angle for Joe there.

Boldly announce he didn't sign. The freedom-minded would pick him over those competitors.

Then the question remains: do enough freedom-minded remain?

33 Let say Joes signs:

1.    first check is late - a paperwork snafu, fixed thru multiple phone calls and emails to Congressman

2.   second check is late - Joe needs to switch to a paperless check request system run out a office 3000mi away.

3.    third check shows up on time

4.    fourth and subsequent "checks" show up as a government IOU valid for free cheese on third Thursday of month  (Wisconsin has a more senior congress critter, so Geary loses out)

5.    another envelope shows up, no check - 1099 form for all of the "income" to date, including the IOUs.  On a cash basis Joe didn't even break even.

6.    IRS issues tax lien, shuts down Joe's business

34

kelley in virginia: "One day, Donna posted that family or friends had just lost their job when a plant closed. Her comment was 'what will they do for us?'"

They will confiscate various portions of her neighbors', her other friends', and her other family members' assets with the force of arbitrary law. Moreover, it will be at a premium because the process invites both waste and abuse, so it's an inefficient redistribution to boot. Plus there's the growing moral hazard that the government launders away as those who opt for arguably justified handouts may opt for subsequent, non-justified handouts without the incentive to repay the debt or get back into the game.

And then there's the whole Communist flavor to it all.

Other than that, it's a peachy path to take. "Donna" may be terribly nice and pleasant person, but I'm straining to see the devout conservatism. It would be more productive if she tore the government a new one for creating economic and legislative dynamics that punish private enterprise while trying to work with ex-employers/ees on what they might do collectively to make lemons out of lemonade.

35 The problem lies in the very fact that you can't choose yourself.
A man with the steel-heeled boot crushing this windpipe is going to choose to have the boot step off his throat, or he'll die. 

The government man won't just come with a contract and a pen, he'll also have a Kelo notice in his pocket.  Because there is a farm-implement and feed business 3 towns over.  If Joe doesn't sign, his business will be condemned in favor of the guy that did sign.  He'll get 5 cents on the dollar for his inventory, minus the costs of paying the government to audit his books and steal his stuff.

36 BigDaddy196,  but Joe's not a risk taking entrepreneur, he is a third generation sustaining manager.  The economy needs all types, can't have all of our money in the high risk funds.

37 He'll sign it. From what I read (and if I misread, pardon) he has a typical middle class balance sheet which would be riddled with debt and if anyone should be debt free it would be him. Maybe he shouldn't have bought a boat.
He'll sign it because he's a fool, this character (and I realize it is a character) above any other should have at least 2 years supply to get his family through hard times. He say's he loves his family, that he's ready to protect and provide for them, and he is, just as soon as he buys a new boat!
He'll sign it because he's a coward. He really does believe his efforts are paramount and God's will counts for nothing.
He'll sign it because in the end, it's who he and his neighbors are. He's enjoyed his mortgage deduction welfare and school lunch welfare and his customers are all welfare pigs sucking on the farm subsidy tit.

38 Your scenario leaves out a significant 3rd option, which is the entity that doesn't just accept a hand, but demands that it be proffered, and under conditions they find acceptable.  This is the car industry.  Their situation is not, as your situation posits, a case where they are in trouble through no fault of their own.  In fact, they are the principal architects of their downfall, and now they want the rest of us to pat them on the head and congratulate them for a job well done. 

Let them burn.

39

the govt wants to get us all in the situation where we starve or go to jail unless we sign on with them.

anyone who does not believe that this is Bambi's goal has not been paying attention.

just yesterday at West Point, he said "international world order".  yippee, he wants us to be just like Greece, Riwanda, North Korea.

40 Vote for me in 2012. I represent the MS GOP. In the words of the immortal Homer Simpson-- if at first you fail, just quit trying, and compromise.

41 Monty: "Does he sign?"

In yesterday's America? No. Today's? Yes. I imagine he would see either a) too little opportunity to succeed, or b) to much subsidy to bother making the effort.

42 A market-driven economy cannot function without people willing to risk failure, and to accept the consequences of those failures. Failure is just as essential to the process as success -- economists call it "creative destruction".

And evolutionary theory calls it "trial and error". 

It's interesting how liberals will scream bloody murder about how nothing but evolutionary theory can be taught in high school, and that it should be taught as an absolute "law of nature", but these same brain-dead, treasonous liberals have never met an evolutionary pressure they don't think they know better than.  Liberals prefer stagnation to growth (as it's easier for their pea-brains to understand a stagnant world).  They prefer centralized command and control to independent evolutionary structures. 

Liberalism is stagnation, as every single leftist nation/society has been in the whole of recorded human history.  Liberals are major errors in the trial and error of human evolution.  They represent a dangerous infection of Western society (Western society, as pretty much no others have self-hating guilt-driven liberals as the West does) that will kill us - as is the liberal desire. 

Sorry.  I just had to get my little rant out about liberals claiming to be pro-evolutionary theory, when there is not a single liberal position that respects evolutionary pressure or the power of evolution.  Evolution is one more example of liberals claiming to support something that they don't understand and detest, anyway.  Frankly, liberals' views of evolution are much like liberals' views of themselves - they don't understand themselves and they detest who they are.  At least, on the latter, I can agree with liberals.  I detest them for being the despicable, lying, scumbag retards that they are.

43

Well, yes I did sign the document for the greater good, and for all the carping and complaining about General Motors becoming Government Motors, we have repaid the taxpayers most of their money. 

 

Everything else you read and hear in the right-wing media is a lie.  We are on-track to profitability, and will continue this unprecedented march to fiscal soundness without any help from the obstructionist Republicans.  God save the King!

44 Is this another "Monty posts a happy face pancake to apologize for a weird, way to long post" post? Nope. This one stands, win lose or draw.

45

Michael Steele really is a freaking idiot. I read what Rand Paul said, there wasn't a hint of racism. What Rand said was way above Steele's head.

Hey Michael:  Wanna know why people don't give to the RNC ??  Because of idiotic statements like yours!

I'll give directly to the candidate Just donated $100 to Rand Paul. I will never give a cent to the RNC.

46
Joe can't make his decision in a vacuum. There are other failing ag supply businesses. If the owners of those businesses sign up with the government devil, then they become protected from their own decisions. They no longer have to worry about making bad business choices. Joe is immediately at a disadvantage should he not sign on.
---------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Joe has to sign because Jane Smith in the next county signed, and Bill Smith in Nebraska signed, and a bunch of other Smiths all over the country have signed the paper.

When the govt controls the farm implement industry Joe has no choice but to sign.

47 Joe signs and all the other Joes sign one by one, and the American Experiment comes to and end.
But wait, there's still hope because a grass roots movement is festering, Texas succeeds from the union and one by one, the Blue States succeed band together.
The new United State sets up a new Constitution, which is the same as the old Constitution except all the bastardization is stripped away...

48
In other words Joe (we) created this monster and fed it until it was so big it and powerful it could take over everything.

49
Any video of how Michael Steele practically just endorsed the Democrat in the KY Senate race?

50 Still nothing about the woman shot by police after she & husband refused to answer Census?

51 Any video of how Michael Steele practically just endorsed the Democrat in the KY Senate race?

Posted by: Mr. Slate at May 23, 2010 10:08 AM (b5sJf)

I feel better with Steele on the other side. 

I am truly disgusted at the reaction to Rand Paul's declaration that private citizens and private businesses have every right to do what they want.  Most "conservatives" don't seem to understand or appreciate the ideas of freedom of association, nor the sacred importance of private property rights in order for ANYONE to have individual liberty.  Of course, liberals are purely hostile towards both of those foundations of America, which is why they must be excised like the cancer they are.

52

O/T

I live in a gated community in Florida, and was just solicited by a Spanish speaking Jehovah Witness.  She asked in Spanish did I speak the language and do any of my neighbors speak Spanish.

How did she get on the property?  Her husband is a grass cutter, and she busies herself knocking doors while he works.  Security has been notified, and she should be out on her ass within a few minutes. 

53 I haven't heard what Steele said, but at this point he knows he is a dead man walking.  He says outrageous things to show how full of integrity he is, so that he can get a job on the networks as David Brooks sub. 

54 I have a more interesting gedanken experiment for you.

Imagine that I drop my trou and shove my arse against your face.

Do you kiss it or not?

Hint: Just like yours, mine is sophomoric drivel.

55

Then the question remains: do enough freedom-minded remain

Yes. and here's why: I was in the grocery checkout line, and there was a woman in front of me, with, I can only assume were her grandchilden.  Food stamps in hand, she was trying to buy whole milk, and but could not. The kids were not on her 'program'   In short, if the govt gives you food stamps, but tells what kind of milk you can buy??  Who among us would want that type of entitlement.?

I figure that 50% of us would not sign. Adaptation in business is the name of the game. In the end, success is measured by the # of people that trust you, not by the trust fund you're able to set aside for your children.

the other 5o% are probably taking some form of entitlement, and therefore don't give a rat's ass. 'Go with the game plan' is their motto.   may they rot in hell

 

56

It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt, (April 23, 1910)

57 great piece. sums up accurately the choice between socialism and the free market. Joe doesn't sign. The government then unleashes its power on Joe. Makes life extremely difficult. Joe rebels, and goes into the underground economy. eventually the free market capitalist proletariats rebel against the govt, and Jefferson's dream is re created.

58
Even more so than in 2008 2010 is what I call a 'bite your tongue' election year.
But I realized a couple months ago that half the Republicans just don't care about winning and the other half have a silly and childish notion about playing 'fair' in politics and being honest about all candidates as if they had some civic duty sent from God.

59 Is there a "Wolverines!" option?

60

How did she get on the property?  Her husband is a grass cutter, and she busies herself knocking doors while he works.  Security has been notified, and she should be out on her ass within a few minutes. 

oh good lord.  

/places bet on whether they're documented, or not

61 "His family has lived here for a hundred years. The idea of being without support, without a livelihood, in so familiar and beloved a place is terrifying. The idea of having to uproot and move elsewhere is terrifying, almost impossible to contemplate." So, you're saying he's a pussy.

62 (Government Man puts paper on counter and holds out pen.)

Joe: "Did anybody see you come in here?"

Government Man: "What?"

Joe: "Does anyone back at your office know where you are right this minute?"

Government Man: "I, uh, I don't know. Why do you ask?"

Joe: "So if the FBI comes in here asking me if I ever saw you I could say no, if he was coming here he didn't make it this far. Whoever killed him and chopped his body into little pieces must have been the last guy to sign his business away to him. It would be bearing false witness, but for making a deal with the likes of you it would be the punishment fitting the crime."

Government Man:

Joe:

Government Man:

Joe:

Government Man:

Joe:

Government Man: "So, does that mean you're not going to sign?"

63

/places bet on whether they're documented illegal, or not

Posted by: pitchforksandpowder at May 23, 2010 10:24 AM (yf5QI)

64

65 sTevo@48,

I like the way you think, young man. I reckon I'd like to make you President of this here Texamerica.

66 Joe signs, of course.

67 The Recovering Republic stands on the horizon.

68

I made the mistake of watching MTP for a little while this morning.  oh my God, what a bunch of whiners.   I don't even get angry anymore, these people have no clue that America no longer trusts them and forget just not trusting them, they loathe them.

69 this is one of the best things I have ever read here. I hope you don't mind, but I posted it to my blog-and linked of course. Really thought provoking. Implications all over.

70 Well there really are two answers to this question.

If this decision is to be made on the basis of pure pragmatism then we'd need more information.  What kind of cash reserves does Joe have to weather the financial storm?  Are there nearby competitors also struggling who'd be interested in a partnership/co-op deal to pool resources and survive on their own?  What do the wife & kids think?  Are they on board with the idea?  And if not, are they so adamantly refusing to move to another place should that be necessary?  Are there no other job opportunities around town that are available that Joe and/or Mrs. Joe could take instead of selling out to the government?

But if it's a purely philosophical question, then if I'm Joe, then hell no I'm not signing.

But I'm kinda liking the third option: Sign the paper, but get an extra job doing something, anything else to support the family, and then take every single dime of the income from the government make-work job and donate it to the local shelter, soup kitchen, charity org. instead.

Or if I was feeling really mean, I'd take the money and donate it to Rand Paul.

71

/places bet on whether they're documented illegal, or not

thanks for FTFM 

72 O/T scream:

I HATE FORTRAN

73 You're no day at the beach, buster.

74 Pep beat me to it.

Joe does not sign because, as in the case of Government Motors, Joe is publicly fired because he has "already made too much money".

The Government simply takes over and everyone in the town knows that Joe's business can no longer be trusted to provide quality service and products.

Customers drive to the next small town where a foreign company has set up shop to take on Joe's old customers.

75 Tell the Federal Government shark to swim somewhere else. Dump your inventory and change your business. Start a tourist trap or a retreat for exhausted city folks. Use your head and your guts to keep your freedom and dignity.

76
Let's play who wrote this:

I urge all of the Tea Partyers to follow Reagan, not Carter. If they want their movement to be more than a wave that crashes on the beach and then recedes back into the ocean, leaving nothing behind but empty sand, they should stop the "gloom talk." These are not the worst times we have ever faced, nor is the Constitution under serious threat.

Our economy is still the strongest and most resilient in the world. Our government is still capable of responding to the leadership of men and women who believe our problems can be solved. We must not follow the siren song of those who are in a frenzy of despair.

After all, we survived Jimmy Carter, didn't we?

========================

a) Michael Steele

b) David Brooks

c) Paul Begala

d) Sen. Bob Bennett

77


Bob Bennett while the Hindenburg is burning: All is well. Nothing to see here. Move along.No need to shout 'fire!' and 'save us!' or any of those empty slogans.

78 Sounds like b) David Brooks. He would twist things that way and may even believe it himself.

79 Couldn't do it. If hard work and pride mean anything at all, he will not sign.
*I*would rather die. I can play out the scenario a hundred times, but the end will be the same. (Get the hell off my land and take your fucking pen with you.)
Will I judge Joe as a shit bird if he signs? Nah. But I will be able to look at myself in the mirror. Joe might not be able to, after he realizes he's been sold.

80 From a big-picture point of view, He should sign. It will help bring the system crashing down that much faster. A disastrous outcome is inevitable at this point; the best thing we can do is go ahead and get it over with.

81 @77
I'll spoil the surprise, but here goes.  Whenever I am tempted to second guess a decision like that by the TPs to throw Bennett out, I am relieved to read something like this, because it confirms that the right decision was made.  This putz wouldn't even exclude the possibility of running outside of the GOP, because he's just that important to the nation.  

To all politicians, especially this year, here is advice to live by.  If your career is more important to you than principles, then it's time for you to go.  You are expendable. 

The truly horrifying thing is that I have no difficulty imagining any of the listed options saying something like this, and three of them are nominal Republicans. 

82

The trouble with you, Galt, is your damned speeches are too long.

Nobody is going to publish this novel, you know.

83

Also unmentioned in the article was that Government Man from the  Bureau of Wealth-Redistribution also provides all potential signees with an unopened tube of KY-Jelly to make the transition go smoothly. 

Joe will be required to do the in-an-out, but it will be less painful with the Government supplied lubricant.  He will also enjoy it as dictated by the bureaucrat from Washington Obamaland on the Potomac.

 

 

84 MUST SEE DOCUMENTARIES “Food Inc.” and ' The World According to Monsanto'. The film is a sobering, even terrifying, look at the ways one corporation is taking control of food. '...genetically modified Roundup Ready Soy, accounts for 95 percent of U.S. soy production...' '...One farmer interviewed ended up settling out of court with Monsanto to avoid being bankrupted by legal fees (he said company representatives threatened to bury proceedings in motions that would draw the case out for years). Monsanto alleged the farmer was saving and reusing Monsanto seed—a big no-no under Monsanto's contracts. But how did Monsanto get wind of this alleged infraction? The answer, it seems, is Monsanto has created a culture that pits farmer against farmer, encouraging them to snitch on their neighbors...'

85 "I urge all of the Tea Partyers to follow Reagan, not Carter."

Um, the Tea Partyers are following Reagan, not Carter. Both Reagan knew and the Tea Partyers' know the failings and trappings of an oppressive government that Carter did not. Furthermore, to recognize Carteresque doom-and-gloom is not to follow it but to know it to avoid it.

That speaker is incoherent and naive.

86
And it just goes to show how the Republicans in D.C. are a 'big govt.' party.

87
Bob Bennett, you ass, listen up:

"Government is the problem, not the solution."
--Ronald Reagan

88 If they want their movement to be more than a wave that crashes on the beach and then recedes back into the ocean, leaving nothing behind but empty sand, they should stop the "gloom talk."

That's an interesting (i.e. retarded) metaphor that seems to advertise a serious lack of understanding of the Tea Party, waves, or sand.

What is "empty sand", anyway?  It must be a Hah-vahd thing.

89 I am going to support Joe's decision to put the corpse of the gman through his woodchipper by making my next automobile purchase be a Toyota. Manufactured in San Antonio TX by non-union employees working for a non-gov subsidized company.

90
Watch this!

91
This is a better clip. It says it all.

92 Kind of OT, but really not: too many college grads for too few jobs. The currency of higher education has become so debased that the inevitable hyperinflation is taking place. We can keep pushing students though the colleges and saddling them with the attendant debt; but there's no gurantee that their degrees will lead to better jobs. A B.A. now is worth approximately what a high school diploma was twenty years ago. Masters degrees are now considered entry-level requirements for many professions. And the pay for these jobs is probably a third to a half less than what a comparable Masters-level job was twenty years ago. It's actually not a good idea to send every kid in America off to college, as it turns out. Many would have been materially better off learning a trade and going to work right out of high school.

93 This is how this government gets us! It becomes "well I've paid taxes all these years and never have gotten anything out of it." It is kind of like unemployment benefits.....you paid for them so why wouldn't you use them. Same as the poster early on who talked about the plant closing and then looking for help.
Dave

94 He will sign the document if the government pays him the fair value of his business, and keeps him on to manage it.  He sounds like a pretty practical guy to me, not given to sophistry and pedantism.

95 RE: #91,

Man, I miss Reagan. His words are truer now than they were then.

96

"His family has lived here for a hundred years. The idea of being without support, without a livelihood, in so familiar and beloved a place is terrifying. The idea of having to uproot and move elsewhere is terrifying, almost impossible to contemplate."

So, you're saying he's a pussy.

Another unoticed benefit of being from military family. No fear of moving.

97    "Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls....
   "Wo unto you poor men, ... whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men's goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!"

-- Joe Smith, the Mormon prophet, Doctrine and Covenants 57:15-16.

98
yeah, if anyone ANYONE would be the leader of today's Tea Party movement it would be Ronald Reagan.

The way he says, "Now so there will be no misunderstanding, it's not my intention to do away with government," it is like he's responding to the assholes today who keep regurgitating the canard that we want to get rid of the federal government.

99

Wow, that was lame. Libertarian Story Time? 

The only reason that Joe could possibly be going bankrupt is that he has too much debt.

100 Hey 14 year old girl, come on over

101
I don't want to do away with government. I want to get rid of all the incumbents!

102
So if Joe Smith thinks the government is the solution to his problems, he will sign the paper.

^{and that me friends is how we tie it all together and get back on topic}

/bows

103 Stay on topic!

104

The only reason that Joe could possibly be going bankrupt is that he has too much debt.

Posted by: Never Mind at May 23, 2010 11:03 AM (et9Uc)

Or possibly the inability to compete against Government Grain & Feed, a wholly owned subsidiary of the United Socialist States of America, and led by the competent and superbly efficient Chief Executive Officer, Rahm Emanuel.

Historically, we also know that Toyoto and Honda will never have the aforementioned problem.  Or will we?

105 Libertarian Story Time? That's actually not a bad idea. "Once upon a time there was a mighty Wizard named Milton Friedman, and a beautiful princess named Ayn..."

106

Whoa, that hits VERY close to home in more ways than is safe to explain. Joe's decision is going to be very different than it would have been 30 years ago. And yes, that same offer might have come back then.

Kelley for President.

107 Joe looks at the government guy and bursts out laughing, he can't stop, tears streaming down his cheeks. When he recovers he looks at the man and says "you know I do have some problems but you guys" he bursts out laughing again as he escorts the government man to his car and gives him a $20 for gas.

108 It's actually not a good idea to send every kid in America off to college, as it turns out. Many would have been materially better off learning a trade and going to work right out of high school.

And they would have been spared the ultra-lib dreck, especially in the humanities, that passes for "higher-education".  Everyone should be exposed to more than one viewpoint, but colleges have sadly become liberal indoctrination centers (with a few notable exceptions - and one can always find good educators even in the worst of schools). 

The trade path would also be a hell of a lot cheaper than traditional college.

109 heard good news the other night. one law firm generally hires 90 summer associates. this summer only 17. less lawyers = more productivity

110 One, one of the great things about this place is that it pipes in sanity to a lefty liberal stronghold. To feel alone is to dispair. Thanks Monty! Thanks

111 A boob and bacon post is overdue.

112 When Joe didn't sign,
Hundreds of SEIU thugs showed up in buses,
Escorted by Washington D.C. police,
Shouting, "Death to Joe and his family!"

113 Joe should hand the Government gangster a crushed mouse.

114 What decision will Joe Smith make? We know his history, his background, and his situation. We know that many pressures weigh on Joe.

In this situation, I would sign.  Simply because I wouldn't have the strength to put my family and this town that's counting on me through an uncertain future.  It's the quick and easy path, but it's also one with more stability.  Freedom is for the strong, and it takes strong people to be risk-takers.

Besides, any gov't offer with a smiley face is concealing a blade behind its back.  If I don't take the offer, the gov't will just find some way to blackmail me into taking it or subsidize one of my competitors, driving me out in the process.

115 If Joe is half a man he tells the g-man to go fuck himself. I own a small business in PA, when times are lean, don't waste, evolve and adapt. Things the goverment has never learned. Only two ways to go in life, on your feet or on your knees, keep standing my friends...

116 108 Joe looks at the government guy and bursts out laughing, he can't stop, tears streaming down his cheeks. When he recovers he looks at the man and says "you know I do have some problems but you guys" he bursts out laughing again as he escorts the government man to his car and gives him a $20 for gas.

Nice imagery, but the gov't has the power of the printing press.  Unlike the average businessman, the government can lie and hide its debt.  In the end, it all comes crashing down into chaos, but for the meantime, the status quo continues.

117 115, *sigh* Kratos, Kratos, Kratos.

118

The only reason that Joe could possibly be going bankrupt is that he has too much debt.

Posted by: Never Mind at May 23, 2010 11:03 AM (et9Uc)

There are many sorts of continuing obligations other than debt.  Even if one owns his house, outright, there is still property tax and maintenance, ...

119 118
115,

*sigh*

Kratos, Kratos, Kratos.

I know.  If it was just me, I'd tell the gov't man to go to hell. 

120 "In the end, it all comes crashing down into chaos, " Then why not say "Cry Havoc! and let lose the dogs of War"?

121

There are many sorts of continuing obligations other than debt.  Even if one owns his house, outright, there is still property tax and maintenance, ...

Posted by: progressoverpeace at May 23, 2010 11:21 AM (Qp4DT)

Of course, to correct myself (before someone else does) if one owns ones house, outright, then there is wealth that can be tapped to keep going a little longer, but my point was that one can go into bankruptcy just from not earning enough to cover standard maintenance costs of life, aside from business risks one takes (outside of debt) that can blow up in your face, and a litany of other circumstances.  It's not all about debt, and debt is a very powerful and important tool for a modern society - for any society.

122 Nice imagery, but the gov't has the power of the printing press.  Unlike the average businessman, the government can lie and hide its debt.  In the end, it all comes crashing down into chaos, but for the meantime, the status quo continues.

Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) at May 23, 2010 11:20 AM (Acgmr)

Sometimes you have to take a stand. Especially when you know both options are likely to end badly.

123

Yeah, the story is missing the part where the government bureaucrat tells Joe that he doesn't have to sign.  However, being as how he didn't contribute to the Obama campaign, a legion of FDA, EPA and OSHA inspectors are due to arrive next week.

Meanwhile, his competetor who made a big contribution to Obama and the nearest Dem congressman just landed a big government contract and targetted tax break.  Complete coincidence, of course.

124 #121  Then why not say "Cry Havoc! and let lose the dogs of War"?

By signing, I'm facilitating the necessary chaos as another poster here noted.

125

Joe will calmly reach into his coat closet and grab his loaded shotgun.  He'll smile thoughtfully as he cradles the shotgun in his arm, not aiming it at the government agent, but able to do so from its position in a split second.  Then he'll announce in a clear, loud voice:

"Get off my land, you motherfucking government leech.  This is still America!  You have ten seconds . . ."

 

 

I love a happy ending.

126 There are many sorts of continuing obligations other than debt. Just so. Joe owes wages to his employees and maintenance and upkeep on his business, not to mention the various fees and taxes that go with being a business-owner. A business can have zero debt and still go bankrupt.

127 When Joe didn't sign,  A couple years after Joe signed,
Hundreds of SEIU thugs showed up in buses,
Escorted by Washington D.C. police,
Shouting, "Death to Joe and his family!"

Posted by: Beto at May 23, 2010 11:16 AM

 

Fixed.

 

128 Ask the Government agent where to sign, and then when he points down at the form, bonk him over the head with a sock full of Krugerands. Then bind and gag him before stowing him away in your secret basement lair where he will live out the rest of his days like "The Gimp" from Pulp Fiction. Or sign the form, whatever...

129 #123  Sometimes you have to take a stand. Especially when you know both options are likely to end badly.

Agreed.  I was answering the question under the specified conditions of this experiment.

If there wasn't a family involved, I'd gladly tell the gov't man to go straight to hell.  "Get off my lawn!".

130

There are many sorts of continuing obligations other than debt.

After Government auditor's complete the task of analyzing all of Joe's ledgers, they find Joe has been woefully remiss in not compensating his employee's properly to Government suggested standards.  After Government mandated adjustments to salary and benefits, Joe discovers the inability of feed and grain to remain a viable business. 

131

I once sold a four year old BMW to one of the original boat-people from Vietnam...He ran a landscaping business.  This guy lost his country to communists and emigrated to a new foreign land.  Within a decade or so he was driving a sporty BMW with money he earned in honest work...He followed the American ideal to the letter IMHO...Our pioneers who settled this great land were looking to escape Kings, an oppressive Church and their bureaucratic functionaries...They weren't too concerned that they didn't have a government man to take care of them.  In point of fact, they were running from those types who had a strangle-hold on Europe...I think Joe Smith tells the government man to pack sand...

132 Eh....Monty now who is Joe?

133 I would probably douse the commie with gasoline and burn him alive. DAMN I fucking hate communists.

134 I think Joe Smith tells the government man to pack sand...

Posted by: Nozzle at May 23, 2010 11:39 AM (sE08M)

You're simply a conservative meanie who has no compassion for us little people.  I've never had the opportunities enjoyed by conservatives because my father was a mechanic and never made over 100K a year. 

We lived in a very small 3500 square foot home, drank Kool-Aid instead of wine, and were forced to smoke cheap bud instead of high quality sensimilla.  I hate George Bush, Dick Cheney, and all the other Republican members of the Criminal Elite who fostered this terrible America on us members of the proletariat.  Long live Obama the Savior!

 

 

135

And, after chasing the government scumbag off his land, Joe will sit in his rocking chair re-reading Ender's Game (which was the book that got him reading in his youth), while waiting for the inevitable swarm of black-clad ATF agents to invade his farm, kill him, and haul his family off to the Obama re-education center.

136

Joe has an equipment, grain and feed store.  He sells John Deere tractors and other farm equipment, plus he buys spare parts wholesale to retail to his farm customers.

Every year he has to use the credit line he has with the bank to renew his inventory of parts and equipment.  Easily a half-million dollars.  Priced a new combine lately? Maybe a million. Plus seed grain that he retails out. He's up to his neck in debt with DeKalb and Monsanto.

So his farmer customers are also having a hard time, and are not buying new parts, or replacing any equipment. He's sitting there with $750K in parts and equipment that are not moving, and he has to service that note on the loan.  That's how most retail sales businesses work.  Do you wonder why retail sales are in trouble, and there is so much empty commerical real estate? 

It's not the boat in the driveway.  It's everything he owns. The bank can sieze everything as a lien against the note. Maybe the bank he works with is a local outfit, and really likes Joe, and really wants to help, and is trying to restructure the note to help Joe. But they are probably up against it, too.  Have you seen news of many banks failing in the past few years?

Joe doesn't sign this time, and politely says "No", but in the back of his mind, he wonders if he can weather the storm. If things get worse and the G-man comes back in August, will he sign.  Stay tuned.

A regional example:  National City Bank did not get any TARP money, but PNC Bank (of Pittsburgh) did.  PNC bought National City last year. Thousands of National City employees are now out of work.

In other news, Ohio will be building gambling casinos.

137 Posted by: Hollowpoint at May 23, 2010 11:26 AM (plsiE)

+1 for telling it like it is....

138 If there wasn't a family involved, I'd gladly tell the gov't man to go straight to hell. "Get off my lawn!". Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) So, you alone would never accept being a Government servant, but you would accept you and your family together being Government servants?

139

"So, you alone would never accept being a Government servant, but you would accept you and your family together being Government servants?" -eman

 

Serfdom.  It's the new cool.

140

I'm no stranger to Kelley's Virginia home around Martinsville, VA. The place has been in a depression for a long time now. To everybody else who woke up to one in October 2008, welcome to the party! I remember when Martinsville was bustling little town with a bright future, one whose main streets brimmed with the energy and vibrancy of commerce and hope. I was child then.

Then the textile mills went south, literally, after NAFTA. The once mighty furniture mills have wound up in China, and the duPont plant closed after union played a distrous game of chicken with the board and lost bigtime. Agriculture died, too. Every drive in the country took you through tobacco fields everywhere. It was possible to swing $4000 an acre in tobacco, making it really the only cash crop that could sustain the small farms there. All that went to hell, too.

Martinsville is now a shell of its former self, infested with chonic unemployment, crime, drugs, and public assistance. Out in the little surrounding towns everybody locks their doors now, which was unheard of 20 years ago, and they make sure to go check up on the little old ladies down the road if they're not heard from in while, just to see if they're safe and still have their stuff.

Of course, through all these unending years of hard times, we read about Wall Street investment banks who go through whole financial quarters, in the midst of depression, and never book one day of losses at the trading desk. That sems to me about as likely as the New York Yankees never losing a game for the season and it is a big tell that, "This game is rigged."

The Congresscrittter, Tom Perriello, is the one who made headlines here on this site for his supposed "honesty" wherein he revealed that "we [Congress] will keep stealing you blind until you stop us." He, of course, has managed to back that statement up so far with his voting record. He's new to the game, having stolen the last election from Virgil Goode in one of those deals where ballot boxes kept getting discovered in Charlotteville (very lib and very unlike the rest of the district) which of course were chocked full of Democrat ballots. Once again they kept recounting until the Dem was ahead and called it quits.

This is what has happened to our America. It's so overwhelming one hardly knows where to begin. But here's what I'm going to do today: go buy some sand at the hardware store, and use it to fill in some potholes in the county road that won't be filled up otherwise.

141 Joe needs to make and sell bathtub crank.

142 "Sorry.  I just had to get my little rant out about liberals claiming to be pro-evolutionary theory, when there is not a single liberal position that respects evolutionary pressure or the power of evolution.  Evolution is one more example of liberals claiming to support something that they don't understand and detest, anyway. "

To liberals, "evolution" just means "LOL CHRISTIANS DUMB"

143 johnc_recent_EX-democrat: I just read that Bennett lost in the dem. primaries AFTER the Messaih endorsed him. So, no more Bennett in Colorado. Read that this opponent took 60% of the dem. primary votes. Did not go through the entire thread, so this may be a repeat. It was not the primaries, it was the Dem. State Convention. There will be a primary election in August, which will split the Democrats some more. Buraq has to decide if he wants to double down again and back Bennett in the primary. Romanoff is the Dem. Speaker of the House. He has never met a tax he does not like. He consistently opposed our Taxpayer Bill of Rights [TABOR], hates business, and has raised taxes and fees as much has he can during our holiday that was passed with the support of our mainstream "Republican" party. It is estimated that he and Democrat Gov. Ritter [who is not running for "personal" reasons] have destroyed a couple of hundred thousand jobs in Colorado themselves in the last two years, and have crippled Colorado's energy industry. The Republican State Convention was going on in Fort Collins at the same time as the Democrats'. We have, in addition to the war with the Democratic Party Left, a war with the RINO party machinery. They are in retreat right now. They are known for ... creative ... vote counting at State Conventions. Ken Buck got 77% of the vote for the US Senate nomination, and he is not exactly loved by the RINO's. The RINO candidate, former state Attorney General, and Bush Interior Secretary, Gail Norton; knew that she was dead meat at the convention and weeks ago petitioned onto the primary ballot. So we will have a Senate primary too. I was elected as an alternate, but too far down to have any realistic hope of getting a delegate seat. I admit that I saved the money it would have cost for a trip all the way across the state and an overnight hotel stay/meals. Apparently, there was no chance that I would have gotten a delegate slot. Normally, we have a certain percentage who don't show up because something comes up between election as delegates and the Convention. ALL 44 of our county's delegates showed up, and almost all delegates statewide did. The TEA Party and 9/12 Movement wanted their people to wear red to show support. The place was wall to wall red, I am told. In Colorado, we are fighting for our country, our families, and the Constitution. NOT for a party. Subotai Bahadur

144

Joe's in Oklahoma, right? So he was essentially relocated there by federal decree during a series of land rushes, and could have relocated at a profit to the Central Valley or Oregon or Washington the last time the Gummint Man came knockin'. Just about everybody took him up on that deal, and I don't see anybody here goddammin the ex-Okies who took that "little bit of help," made irrevocable the largest state water project/s since Babylon, and survived.

Joe serves farmers, right? Farmers working on a federally-regulated land allotment system, with dictated floor prices and subsidized year-to-year financing (there's a reason they call it "seed money"), sucked into existence by the clout of the Grange movement over 150 years ago, during the birthing pangs of homegrown American socialism.

I'm a libertarian. I'd like to live in a conservative republic someday, but I'm going into this with my eyes wide open:  Joe is, and has always been, a socialist. So was his pappy, and his grand-daddy afore that. He's lived his whole life under a very patriotic, religious form of statism, proudly sends his kids to government schools where they are trained to be agents of the state, and couldn't consider for a moment getting by without the moment-by-moment intervention of his "bettors." He's about to get an attitude adjustment.

145 A bit over a year ago I lost everything I had put into my restaurant, including three years of sweat and toil, no salary and four young kids who didn't understand why Daddy had to work all the time.

A dozen employees lost their jobs and benefits. There is nothing more soul-crushing than having to tell people who depend on you to succeed that you're sorry, but you've failed. Little else is more humbling than to have to tell vendors that you've gone out of business and if they'll just be patient with you, you'll pay them back every cent you owe.

It took almost a year and every bit of money we could scrounge, but everyone got made whole. Everyone. The emotional consequences of failure last a lot longer, but eventually you come to the decision point, like Monty says.

Everyone gets knocked down. What do you do? You get up.

You. Get. Up.

I'm fortunate enough to have a mentor that's been where I have. The most heartening thing he told me was that if I wanted to be really successful, then I'd have to lose it all first, and aren't you glad that's out of the way?

146 He'll sign. He inherited his business from his dad who inherited it from his. If he had the intestinal fortitude necessary to soldier on, or fail pick himself up, and try again, then why didn't he do so already? Instead of taking daddy's allowance (and inheritance), he'll be taking uncle Sam's allowance.

That's why my kids never received an allowance. They might receive gifts, but most often they contracted with us to do tasks about the house. Teach kids that they get some money just for surviving another week and they lose the disconnect between working and getting paid for it.

And there's the next level of play: creating wealth. Something the grandfather of your hypothetical man understood, but not what our story's protagonist has demonstrated. The lessons of entrepreneurship and free-market capitalism are acutely known to the founder of a successful enterprise. They are passed along incompletely to his son. They are meaningless to the following generations.

147  From a big-picture point of view, He should sign.

It will help bring the system crashing down that much faster. A disastrous outcome is inevitable at this point; the best thing we can do is go ahead and get it over with.

Posted by: Andy at May 23, 2010 10:45 AM (GguGs)

I agree with this view.  The heroic self sacrifice involved in fighting (against what is now essentially inevitable) is very noble, and my heart leaps in joy to think of it.  But really, how many Americans are willing to join up?  As far as I can tell, a majority of Americans are doing what people have always done - they're looking out for number 1 and adapting to circumstances beyond their immediate control.  That's why capitalist systems work - people make the best decisions they are capable of in their own best interests.  They've been brainwashed by the public schools to be unpatriotic and unappreciative of our cultural heritage.  I don't owe them my life or livelihood - I'm not interested in taking a bullet, economic or otherwise, for those who are not sympathetic to the cause of freedom to begin with.  If my fellow Americans vote in leaders who create a scenario like the one Monty described, and do not repent of that decision, who am I to try to save them from themselves and breath a bit more life into a system that WILL fail?  Hell - conservatives are held in contempt by a significant portion of the citizens of this land.  Piss on 'em.  Le the current stupid system fall and burn. 

I care about me and mine, and will do what I can to maximize the wealth and security of me and mine. 

148

Now, as part of the thought experiment, let's look to the future.  Where is Galt's Gulch going to be?  We need to start putting it together. 

 

Kulaks Unite!

149 Actually, the pen was offered to the auto unions, not the stock-holders. They got shafted in violation of centuries of contract law.

150 Awesome Monty.

151 United States Department of Wealth Redistribution.....mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

152 150 Actually, the pen was offered to the auto unions, not the stock-holders. They got shafted in violation of centuries of contract law.

Posted by: Noel at May 23, 2010 02:08 PM (Hh13R)

I'm one of the shaftholders....lost 100 shares@ $36. Plus it was in my IRA...ouch!

153 BTW...the reason I rode GM to the bottom was stupid....I never thought the largest auto company on earth would file bankruptcy. It would find a way...it would improvise, adapt, and overcome. Fuck them and the D's. I'll buy Fords.

154 Everything you need to know is in "The Devil and Daniel Webster". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_and_Daniel_Webster_(film)

155 Nice post, Monty.

I don't know what Joe says, but I do know what thew next generation will say, after they go through indoctrination through education in that generation.

156

That is, with some leeway for setting, how serfdom came about.

People unable to pay the taxes on their farms turned them over to local aristocrats in return for a guaranteed job as a sharecropper. Over time that evolved into the semi- or quasi-slavery that serfdom was.

Think BSG - "Everything that is happening has happened before and will happen again."

157 I've imagined a similar scenario in relation to the offering of a certain mark that would allow one to survive in the world.
 
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Quite the choice.  Choose "A" and your debts will be canceled, you'll have food on your table and you life will go on as it has in the past.  Choose "B" and you'll be outside the system with no means to survive.

158

Joe Smith's ancestors...those who first came to Geary, OK, with all they owned and their families in tow...who made the decision to leave some other place...some place where perhaps the Smith's had faced this great and awful choice before, and chose to risk it all, to leave the familiar and the comfortable, to start somewhere and something new...they were upright men and women. 

Joe, to this point, sounds like he's followed in footsteps of upright men.  That's nothing to be ashamed of.

But Joe, I'm not yet sure about.

159 "Let us pretend that you are Joe Smith, a doughty yeoman of Geary, Oklahoma."

Ok, and you be -- ummm -- Mary Nicoles, an outwardly shy but secretly curious librarian.

Oh wait, I thought this was our rollplaying night.

160 A B.A. now is worth approximately what a high school diploma was twenty years ago. Masters degrees are now considered entry-level requirements for many professions. And the pay for these jobs is probably a third to a half less than what a comparable Masters-level job was twenty years ago.

I think this goes hand in hand with the "dumbing down" of  "education" that has been going on for the last 100+ years.  (cf. John Taylor Gatto's Underground History of American Education and Dumbing Us Down)

Childhood has been deliberately pushed out further and further.  The ultimate goal being that no one ever really grows up (i.e. "adults" who are perpetually looking for someone to take care of them).

161 The next gedankenexperiment might be the buttered kitteh experiment.

162 Well,  childhood has been expanded to older and older groups,  if you are talking about dependency.

On the other hand, sexuality is being pushed DOWN the age spectrum,  as can be seen on various horrifying (to this grandma) YouTube videos.

The result will be a bunch of hyper-sexualized early adolescents who will end up with STD's and pregnancies and need government help simply to exist.

163

The line you wrote about a successful man standing out and breeding resentment and fear among the mediocrities, is exactly the reason the Arabs hate the isrealis so much. Think about it.

The Joooos get a little piece of desert 60 some years ago and turn it into something fabulous, all the time fighting for their very survival. Meanwhile the A-Rabs have been there for thousands of years and all they can do is have sex with 9 year old girls.

164 I'm late to the discussion, but here are some thoughts: Point 1) Why does Joe sign? Because the principles that founded America don't mean so much to him- they aren't worth dying over. Why did the Pilgrims leave all they had to come to the New World? Because the founding principles meant life and death to them. What made the difference: the founding principles begin with religious freedom. When your faith is your life, you have the strength to refuse the government. Joe would sign away his freedom because of his weak religious faith. That is the dividing line in America today. Point 2) Progressive education has worked to erode that faith since the founding of the country. Liberalism, with all its pathological suicidal tendencies, found refuge in education, and produces journalists and professors intent on bringing down the Successful Free Man. They have almost succeeded. Point 3) See Martha @ 164 directly above. Point 4) Know your enemy: I just discovered Alinsky's Rules for Radicals was dedicated (in its first pages) to Lucifer. We are not having an intellectual disagreement. We are waging a spiritual battle for our eternal souls. Point 5) Don't worry if you aren't qualified: stand and speak out anyhow. G-d qualifies the called, He doesn't call the qualified. Best regards, Peter Warner.

165 This parable was brilliantly told by the great Dostoevsky, in The Brothers Karamazov.

In the famous chapter called "The Grand Inquisitor."

166 zentai    
spider man costume  
costume zentai   
spider costume   
spandex zentai 

167

The Peoples Republic of Minnesota is filled with those who have taken the Devil's Deal. All the farmers are on the dole, as are most of the people up on the Iron Range. Minneapolis is filled to the brim with young idiot utopianists and welfare cases. The middle aged types over there are operating on throwing anyone off the sleigh in hopes the wolves won't catch up to them strategy. Good luck with that.

I can't afford to pull up stakes for another state just yet as the wife and I are just around the corner from our retirement home move at the moment, but you can bet we will never live here again (along with a long list of other socialist states).

168 Great story, Monty. Only thing you missed on was the hook. Of COURSE the head of a major American auto-maker would take it (and, to the extent GM & Chrysler actually had choices, did take it). The differences are manifold - first, it wasn't their businesses at risk, and their ultimate personal success or failure didn't hinge on the fates of the companies. Second, they had largely unionized personnel, and the Govt offer wasn't to save the businesses, but to stem the ultimate decline of the union base. Back to the core of your story - I'd hope, for Joe's sake and that of the rest of this fine country that he'd refuse the offer. There's a difference between failures you can come back from and those that kill you (and your way of life) dead.

169

No, he doesn't sign.  Why?  Because of this clue to his character:

"He doesn't think of himself as happy, necessarily, but he is; he is satisfied with his lot in life. He's done his best. An upright man."

Joe won't sign because he's an American.

170 xxx

171 What ispandora it!!