1 I mean, what’s the difference between a fanatical mass-murdering Taliban regime and a mass-murdering evangelical Christian in the White House, which this country voted in for eight years?!?”

Well, duhhhhh.  W eats pork.

2 The author forgot to mention that Ms. Hirsi Ali wasn't only Dutch, she was actually a member of the DUTCH parliament (before she scared them so much, they tossed her out of the country), and a former social worker.

I've had the pleasure of speaking with Ms. Hirsi-Ali, and you better believe she's a leftists worst nightmare.  She's mature, intelligent, calm, and measured, plus of course, she's actually African (not "African-American"), and has seen what Islam does up close and personal.

3

I treat prose like that as a sort of "Where's Waldo" puzzle, and I stop when I get to the word poignant.

I might read the whole post, eventually maybe.

4 Cognitive dissonance doesn't turn any maniacs away from their ideologies.  The Western left lives in cognitive dissonance, and they've never been bothered by it, in the least.  In fact, they've just gotten worse and worse.

You cannot hope to use rationality against irrational people.

5 My God, the NYT actually publishes writing like that?  They'd be going out of business even if they weren't insulting, condescending, traitorous hacks.  The writing is just terrible. 

6

Would I be out of line by saying Ms. Hirsi Ali is freaking smokin' hot?

But...seriously..what the NYT and the "enlightened" left are really saying is "Get back in your place, you uppity bitch"

7

Ms. Paul at the NYT had to lightly skip over the Frum's serving mini-BLTs since that would offend Muslims. But she had to mention it so that the Frum's can also be shown as an in-your-face "whose ass do I kick?" sort of hosts.

8 If this is what passes for the conservative intellectual elite, then we're fucked.

And I wish David Frum would hurry up and finish his journey to the left instead of continuing to screw up the GOP .

9

Dude!  A masterful takedown!  Pure artistry!

Well done, indeed.

If I knew what to nominate you for, I would.  Excellent work.

10

Where were the feminists when Clinton was sexually assaulting all those women?

...and when Carville called Paula Corbin trailer trash??

...and when Palin was/is under constant attack?

11 Yeah, when radical, right wing Christians discontinue the heinous practice of female genital mutilation, then we can stop equating them to Muslims.  Oh, what's that you say? 

12 chicken skewers and mini-B.L.T.Â’s

WTF? We have gay bar food out here in the sticks, too. It's free at Gay Hour.

Nat Shermans (“No artificial additives!”)

They sell those in every tobacco store I've ever been inside. I smoked them for at least a decade, and I never got stranded anywhere in the world without them. I bought some in a three-digit-population town in the Upper Peninsula. In 1995.

Political-class condescension is boring, but the provincial weirdness of it when it gets down to particulars—down to shopping level, where their minds really operate—is interesting, sort of, occasionally.

13 David Frum, trying so desperate to be relevant again.  Kathleen Parker so desparate to be liked.  These people suck.  They can go to Hell and take Peggy Noonan and David Brooks with them.  Honestly.

14 All the pejoratives they usually apply to people who disagree with them wouldnÂ’t work, and so they were left to confront her ideas, and those ideas stripped them naked, rent their garments of superiority and condescension into tatters at their feet, and left them angry and confused, whining to each other in the corners of the room, unable to say anything to her face.

That says it all right there. The true meaning of liberalism is shown.

So why did they hate on her? Because she didn't espouse a cause for hatin on America.

15

8 If this is what passes for the conservative intellectual elite, then we're fucked.

To the extent that we're skrood, we're skrood for other reasons: not because they're the conservative elite. That "elite" is the elite the Left has chosen for the conservatives, not the elite which conservatives choose for themselves. Conservatives know it.

16 Ms. Ali is an inspiring person and quite the force of nature. She is bold in a way that we just don't see in the western world anymore.

I read Infidel last year and found this post a bit surprising as I'd just yesterday ordered The Caged Virgin.

17 And I wish David Frum would hurry up and finish his journey to the left instead of continuing to screw up the GOP .

Posted by: Mætenloch at June 14, 2010 03:55 PM (f5vi+)

Frum is one of those people for whom it's more important not to be taken to task at dinner parties than to stand for what is right and true.  They want an inoffensive conservatism that won't subject them to nasty questioning by people like the fellow at the Santa Monica book signing -- because even though he was too intimidated to ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali his question, he wouldn't be at all skittish about laying into his conservative next-door neighbor.

18 Nat Fuckin' Shermans ?
Keeerist , I hate these elitist pricks .

19

Political-class condescension is boring, but the provincial weirdness of it when it gets down to particulars—down to shopping level, where their minds really operate—is interesting, sort of, occasionally.

Posted by: oblig

 

But it makes them seem almost life-like.

20
meanwhile...

Somali militants have threatened football fans they will be publicly flogged - or worse - if they are caught watching the World Cup on TV.

Gangs of Islamists are reported to be patrolling the areas they control looking for people watching games.

Dedicated fans are watching matches in secret, or in the few areas controlled by government forces.

On Saturday militants killed two people as they attacked a house where people were watching a game.

21 I should like Ms. Ali, however since she's apparently a homewrecker, I can't work up any respect for her.

22 what’s the difference between a fanatical mass-murdering Taliban regime and a mass-murdering* evangelical Christian secular Marxist in the White House, which this country voted in for please God, only four eight years?!?”

* Obamacare.

23 "I mean, what’s the difference between a fanatical mass-murdering Taliban regime and a mass-murdering evangelical Christian in the White House, which this country voted in for eight years?!?” Free elections, a constitution, a Bill of Rights, and, specifically, the freedom of speech that allows such stupid questions to be asked without a beheading by the religious police. Next question, asshole.

24

Gangs of Islamists are reported to be patrolling the areas they control looking for people watching games.

Dedicated fans are watching matches in secret, or in the few areas controlled by government forces.

On Saturday militants killed two people as they attacked a house where people were watching a game.

Posted by: IreneFingIrene

 

Didn't you hate how W. sent out gangs who killed people for not cheering for the Texas Rangers? Yeah, I don't remember that either.

25 The only thing more reprehensible than a limousine liberal is a limousine RINO. Disgusting creatures who don't know the difference between thinking and parroting shit to be popular with the limousine liberals. Frum is the lowest of the bottom feeders, and too stupid to see it. I gift to them my utter revulsion.

26

Meanwhile, a more reputable journalist, "Mr. Wrestling IV,"

Hah!   It's good to have occasional gut-busting laffs in my crap life.

27 So why did they hate on her?

Because she's off the plantation.  Because she says things they do not want to hear.  Because she does not know her place.

I was discussing her with a friend over the weekend and mentioned that a review of one of her books said something to the effect that her view of Islam was too much impacted by her personal experiences.  To which my response is which personal experiences?  Having her clit hacked off when she was five or six?  Being told that oh hey you're going to go to Canada to marry this guy you've never heard of?  Having constant death threats?  Having a person with whom she works get shot, killed and his head nearly hacked off?  Being thrown out of her country because it's easier to get her to leave than to stop those who want to kill her?  You mean those experiences?

Arrrgggh.  I hate the MFM so much.

28

Certainly the typical Tea Party denizen, with his “I Wanna Party Like It’s 1773” T-shirt and “You Lie!” trucker hat, would seem out of place on the Frums’ well-tended grounds, nibbling chicken skewers and mini-B.L.T.’s. In the presence of Ms. Hirsi Ali, at least, there was a sense of shared purpose.

I'd rather cling to guns and religion than the shopworn little caricatures that insecure leftards use to reassure themselves that they're superior to people who don't share their infatuation with pants creases, government experts and murderous jihadists.

29 Posted by: beedubya at June 14, 2010 03:58 PM (AnTyA)

But in all those examples, the women involved were threatening to wander off the feminist reservation -- you know, by accusing a Democrat bigwig of sexual assault or by refusing to repeat the Feminist Creed verbatim.

Take a look at the Don Lemon CNN interview with Al Greene again.  Don Lemon keeps asking over and over again if Greene committed a crime.  Greene at one point mumbles something important -- that the criminal justice system treats Black men unfairly.  In any other situation, Don Lemon would be echoing that loud and clear... but because Greene threatens the Democrat Party by exposing its voters' ridiculousness, Lemon prefers to give Greene the third degree (all that was missing was the bare light bulb and the rubber truncheon).

30 OT:  The Miracle of Modern Dentistry or It Ain't Rocket Surgery.

31 Arrrgggh.  I hate the MFM so much.

Posted by: alexthechick at June 14, 2010 04:05 PM (8WZWv)

Whereas the book reviewer's experience of Islam is probably based entirely on seeing the movie Malcolm X.  Oh, and being secretly scared shitless that some jihadist is going to blow him up on some random ride on the subway.

32 Typical liberal,asking retorical questions all the while knowing the right answer but will never admit to it.

33 RINO's?????

They don't rise to the level of RINO. They are liberals who vote for Democrats and who have been labeled as "Moderate Republicans" by liberal MFM.

34 “Feminists are confused by her because they’re paralyzed by political correctness,she didn't abort her youngest child”

35 How does the Tea Party movement finally gain the respect of those people? Simple, the jihadis showed the way. They will respect the Tea Party when the Tea Party starts sawing their heads off. Then you will see a change of perspective....

36

These FreeMinds (TM) sure don't seem as eager to collect data as advertised.

They were using ObjectivePerceptionRemovalWizard™ by Microsoft.

37 Or was Sommers referring to Ali?  I got confused with the Wasilla reference.

38 O/T:   "June 14, 2010
CuomoÂ’s Favorability Rating & Lead Over Republicans Slip a Little
Independent Voters Move Toward Reps; No Dem Wins Majority of Independents
Voters Overwhelmingly Oppose GovernorÂ’s State Worker Layoff Plan;
Support Remains Strong for Constitutional Convention
Majority of Voters Prefers ‘Someone Else’ Rather than Re-electing Current State Senator"
CBS news radio article  (heard the story on abc news radio, and could not find an article about this there)
"Republican operative in NY accused of stealing $1M"

Ooooo harsh....
What constitutional convention???  Why?

Idiots, they need to support the state worker layoffs or they are going to end up without services....it's a force choice test.

39

By 11 p.m., the guests had finished the remaining bottles of red wine and berry-topped petit fours.

Pure faggotry. I'm supposed to be impressed by these pretentious dimwits?

40 Nice article at BigGovernment.  Thx for the link.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali seems like a fascinating woman.  And a very brave one. 

41

“I just think there are problems in this country that she just doesn’t understand! I mean, what’s the difference between a fanatical mass-murdering Taliban regime and a mass-murdering evangelical Christian in the White House, which this country voted in for eight years?!?”

I had a fishtank full of mbuna from lake Malawi once.  They would posture just like this--displaying their inclusion in the dominant group.

42 Hirsi Ali, is  someone i would aspire to be like.

43 39

Only thing worse than politicians and politics are pundits who evaluate them.  Its not the punditry itself but rather the self-importance that the pundits all seem to eventually assign to themselves.  There are few exceptions.

Posted by: polynikes at June 14, 2010 04:18 PM (m2CN7)

Its because they believe they have become the gatekeepers.  They are more important than the politicians because they believe they set the agenda and what the public will be interested in.

44 It's like Reagan once said of leftards: it's not that they don't know anything, it's just that so much that they know is wrong.

45

Its not the punditry itself but rather the self-importance that the pundits all seem to eventually assign to themselves. 

I'd love to crack Frum's skull with an empty PBR bottle.

46

I was discussing her with a friend over the weekend and mentioned that a review of one of her books said something to the effect that her view of Islam was too much impacted by her personal experiences.

Yeah like that guy that escaped from Auschwitz and said all those bad, bad things about it.  It was just because his objectivity had been shall we say compromised by all his experiences there.

When I read stuff like that it makes me wanna start breking shit just for funzzies.

47  What the fuck are berry-topped petit fours?I'll take a cinnamon pop-tart any day!

48 Posturing Mbuna Primitive leftwing assholes.

49 I have to confess that I experienced a level of cognitive dissonance otherwise unparalleled when I first began to peruse the dialectical extravagance of the Old Grey Lady. While, at first, it gave the impression, albeit subject to my interpretation, of the usual Iowahawk satire of the crab pate set, I slowly realized that it, indeed, was the overly adverbial retchings of a pedantic, didactic, fucktard.

50

I was discussing her with a friend over the weekend and mentioned that a review of one of her books said something to the effect that her view of Islam was too much impacted by her personal experiences.

Yeah like that guy that escaped from Auschwitz and said all those bad, bad things about it.  It was just because his objectivity had been shall we say compromised by all his experiences there.

When I read stuff like that it makes me wanna start breking shit just for funzzies.

Posted by: Roadking at June 14, 2010 04:24 PM (DaGWx)

Whenever I want to get some knowledge I always asked someone who doesn't know shit about the subject.  That way I don't feel bad for not knowing.

51 Posted by: dagny at June 14, 2010 04:25 PM (Y27Ii)

wow, you sound just like Iowahawk....very funny dagny....

52 Anyone heard anything from 'ol Christo Buckley lately?

53

 What the fuck are berry-topped petit fours?

I'm pretty sure they're some sort of tart infused with semen.

54 Anyone have any idea where she is speaking and signing her books next? I realize that the religion of peace is also interested in that information, but I would love to buy a book and stand up and cheer her in front of some of these smarmy assholes.

55 Read Infidel and read Nomad - Ali puts the metrosexuals, feminists, politicians, and stupid leftists some fucking empirical knowledge about Islam.

56 Hirsi Ali is just a self-serving liberal whose sex and color gives her special Muslim-hating privileges.  I don't know why anyone save the bloodthirstiest of neocons would consider her praiseworthy.

57

 Anyone have any idea where she is speaking and signing her books next? I realize that the religion of peace is also interested in that information, but I would love to buy a book and stand up and cheer her in front of some of these smarmy assholes.

Just don't forget to wear your "YOU LIE" truckkker hat yall. 

58 To me, the last paragraph of the article written by Mr. Wrestling IV is the most damning and despicable. The very people who shout "free speech" about every single offensive and disgusted image shat out of hollywood and mourn the deaths of "actual" mass murderers will turn around and ruin your life if you say something they disagree with.

This is why the left loves islam and commies.

59 Do Free Minds wear swill-suits?

60

What's the difference between a mass murdering Taliban and a mass murdering Evangelical Christian pres... yada yada blather blather blither blither

A few thousand women in burqas with large exit wounds in their heads ...  hundred of thousand of people starved to death ... tens of thousands of sodomized ten year old boys ... tens of thousands of women dying in childbirth.  How's that for a start? 

61 After reading Pamela's 5000 word dissertation on why puffed cheetos are superior, I couldn't find myself in more agreement.

62

She can't see any good in any religion, which is my number one reason for treating her with indifference. That she parties with Hitchens comes as no surprise. Two peas in a pod.

Of course we shouldn't let people like that run the GOP. But when leftists wise up, I will give credit where it is due. Should we base our policies on those people? No. But should they flock to our side when they realize our policies are correct, even if on only one major issue, should we give them the cold shoulder? I think not. Come on in, there is room in the tent.

I guess this brings up the "big tent" matter. I'm all for a big tent, but we, not they, decide where to plant the poles.

63

Still, as an atheist, she's just as guilty of cogntive dissonance.  Why does she care about whether Islam eventually conquers the world, or anything else?  A logically consistent atheist knows, to paraphrase Camus, that it all ends in meaningless oblivion whether you choose course x or course y. 

Just don't understand these atheists who get worked up about things, anything.         

64

if one is battered significantly by religion, why not cut her slack, that she is suspicious, and she is free to accept or not.

i wouldn't have it be any other way.

free will.

you tell what you know, you pray or hope for their awakening. 

65 someone beat me to it but pants creases, man! What about the pant creases!!!?!?! How else can I gauge a person's, ah, how you, say... intellectual curiosity?

66 Mmm. Petit fours.

67

Re: 56

So berry topped petit fours are female TV journalists or male bloggers at The Atlantic. Who knew?

68 Where's Iowahawk?  That NYT drivel is just screaming for an appearance by T. Coddington VanVoorhees.

69 H.L because islam is conspicuously  Tyrannyand dicorial. most other  religions at this time. you have a choice

70

Of course we shouldn't let people like that run the GOP. But when leftists wise up, I will give credit where it is due. Should we base our policies on those people? No. But should they flock to our side when they realize our policies are correct, even if on only one major issue, should we give them the cold shoulder? I think not. Come on in, there is room in the tent.

 

 

I personally don't want them.  They're snakes with ivy league degrees.  You pick them up, they'll bite you every time.  Maybe after 2012.  Not before.

71 What's a 'petit four'?

72 She can't see any good in any religion, which is my number one reason for treating her with indifference. That she parties with Hitchens comes as no surprise. Two peas in a pod.

Posted by: Upscale Community Organizing Thought Criminal at June 14, 2010 04:38 PM (IhHdM)

Actually, she can and does.  She just opts out. 

73 A petit four is a dessert, dad. People who are better than us eat them when they use caterers.

It's French for "small oven", so they have to be better than for the likes of you. I mean us.

74 67

I want a life free of Islamic tyranny, because life is better that way, and better for our descendants, and that's a good enough reason by itself. So what if an atheist must be 'logically consistent?' This isn't math being discussed.

75

I personally don't want them.  They're snakes with ivy league degrees.  You pick them up, they'll bite you every time.  Maybe after 2012.  Not before.

OK, real world lesson: Part of winning elections is coalition building. This is *not* to say that you let they, the atheistic but wised up a bit Former Left, dictate GOP policy. To paraphrase Camus, if an atheist understands that Islamuninsts are savages, are we supposed to reflexively defend Islam?

And frankly, the time to pick them up is *now*, and *then* drop them like a hot brick after 2012. This is actually a win-win. We get the short term support, and they, after quietly admitting they were wrong, get to go back to being the "fashionable iconoclasts" that they like to be.

76 @Curmudgeon,

Oh no, we must be pure!  Coalitions are for sissies who get off on things like winning elections and control of the house and senate.

77 "Coalitions are for sissies who get off on things like winning elections and control of the house and senate."

If the only thing your coalition can agree on is that we need to fight endless wars in the Middle East, count me out.

78 Where's Iowahawk?  That NYT drivel is just screaming for an appearance by T. Coddington VanVoorhees.

Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at June 14, 2010 04:47 PM (IoUF1)

It reads like a fucking parody already; in fact I can see that dicksuck Frumsie being proud of every stupid syllable.

79 What's a 'petit four'?
Posted by: homer simpson at June 14, 2010 04:51 PM (7b1Uc)

It's what elitist RINO dumbfucks call a fucking cupcake.

80

A petit four, for the great unwashed, is a tiny piece, about 1/2 in by 1/2 in by 1/2 in square of layered cake and fillings, covered by fondant and topped with some sort of decoration like a berry or a swirl of icing or chocolate. Fondant is flat sheets of icing that dry to a semi-hard state.

They usually taste rather stale to me and are often confused with tartlets and other confections.

 

 

81

If the only thing your coalition can agree on is that we need to fight endless wars in the Middle East, count me out.

Yes, because the Islamunists, like the Soviets before them, will just go away if you stick your head in the sand.

82

i had thought we stood to ideals, as no murdering for religion, that means those within.

we defend ourselves From Religion that would tyrranize its citizens.

we are free to be religious, we are not Free to force it on eachother.

listen, to those fighting for a religious state> what state of religion.

our founders let us be free TO BE, what we are  religiously NOT enforce a particular relious ideal, although we recognize Religious idealisms exist taking from what we consider natural morals, don't murder,steal .

look our founders wanted freedom. from tyranny and gvt. to enforce religion on us.

we know they themselves enjoyed moral laws and it likely came from religion  Like christianity as an example,  so what if they'd chosen catholicism, maybe everyone needed to be babtists?  judaism,

would this be what our founders would want?

when everything they did FOR us was about freedom?

83 These 'intellectual elite' assholes are going to get a rude awakening this November.  Maybe they'll all pack up and leave the country.

84 "Yes, because the Islamunists, like the Soviets before them, will just go away if you stick your head in the sand"

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but the Soviets did go away on their own.  No WWIII required.

85

"I want a life free of Islamic tyranny, because life is better that way, and better for our descendants, and that's a good enough reason by itself. So what if an atheist must be 'logically consistent?' This isn't math being discussed."

Actually, I'd submit that an atheist is also necessarily a determinst, as the state of the universe, including human actions, is the result of a continuous chain of cause and effect back to the big bang.  So from a purely atheistic perspective, everything is math.

 

86 That NYT article was so full of name-dropping and brand-dropping that I don't think it could take anymore without collapsing into a black-hole of unmerited self-regard.

87

Needless to say, I don't have one friend on the left.

Does anybody, really?

88 She can't see any good in any religion, which is my number one reason for treating her with indifference. That she parties with Hitchens comes as no surprise. Two peas in a pod.






In the case of most ex-Muslims, they become atheists.  It's because of the Islamic idea of the supreme deity: a totalitarian who changes things in the material world a whim; who rules those who serve him with a ham-fist rather than with love and mercy.  If you knew nothing about "God" besides that, you might be an atheist also.

Don't be like the Leftists.  Try to see things from her perspective.  And if you really care that much about her and even Hitchens, you might pray that the Holy Spirit open their eyes.

89

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but the Soviets did go away on their own.  No WWIII required.

The whole Cold War was in effect one long slow-motion low intensity WWIII, with the minor conflicts from 1947-1991 essentially "battles" in a Soviet-American War. Many "battles", like the decision to put missiles in Europe in the face of crypto-Soviet peacenik opposition, didn't involve firing a shot, but were battles nonetheless. You don't get that, do you?

Confronting the Islamunists will be WWIV, and dealing with Red China might be WWV.

 

90

you tell what you know, you pray or hope for their awakening. 

Posted by: willow at June 14, 2010 04:46 PM (HyUIR)

Ah, willow, you beat me to it.

91

Actually, I'd submit that an atheist is also necessarily a determinst, as the state of the universe, including human actions, is the result of a continuous chain of cause and effect back to the big bang.  So from a purely atheistic perspective, everything is math.

 

Posted by: H. L. Bierce at June 14, 2010 05:14 PM (kuZ4a)

That would assume that said atheist believed that the universe were a rational place, subject to unchanging, rational laws - specifically, laws that are expressible in mathematical form.  But there is no reason for anyone to believe that, so a smart atheist would not take such a position, since it would imply the existence of a meta-physics (demanding the adherence of the universe to logic - a human construct) and that person would no longer be a true atheist (as in Einstein's famous, "G-d does not play dice with the universe" statement - even though Einstein was not a lover of any formal religion).

Any true atheist would be living in a cloud of confusion all the time, but it wouldn't matter, because everything to an atheist is devoid of meaning or purpose.

92 As a denizen of the Paris-Commune-on-the-Pacific, the proper term is Soviet Monica, not the People's Collective of Santa Monica.

93 Instead he remains silent in her presence, but then asks the question in a purely rhetorical manner to his like-minded FreeMinds (TM), where he doesn't risk getting an answer that might provoke him into thinking.

This is a therom I have come to believe about leftists. Since their philosophy is collectivist in nature, it cannot be implemented as a structured society while a large portion of the population openly dissents from the premise of the philosophy. The presupposition of the establishment of a collectivist society is that, in the search for a better state of man, collectivism is it, end of discussion, no other way could possibly exist to better man, otherwise it would be better to leave him to his own devices and let in individuality of mankind, find, propose, vet, and implement the other ways using open debate and participatory Government. Open debate then becomes the death knell to collectivist structured society. In order to preclude open debate, the argument must never be joined. So the points of arguers of the opposition HAVE to be dismissed without ever acknowledging them, or even the fact that a valid alternate philosophy might exist. To this end, collectivists use no end of tools to discredit and invalidate the arguments of the opposition without ever acknowledging the argument itself.

These reasons, as varied as they are, always fall into one of two categories.

1. Your too stupid to see the glory that is collectivism. Your ill informed warbling words regarding issues clearly to great for your minuscule mind need not be heeded by serious thinkers.
2. You are the devil, and are trying to use your silver tongue and slippery words to help forward an agenda of evil desires. (That include but may not be limited too racial dominance, greed, economic enslavement)

94

"I'm pretty sure they're some sort of tart infused with semen."

Funny, my ears just started burning...

95

Any religion, or lack thereof, is vastly superior to the radical Islamist.

This woman has guts.

96

baldi. it's tough.

we all have a life to prove, we know G-d knows the struggle

 

97 Islamist.

This woman has guts.

Posted by: TexasJew at June 14, 2010 05:23 PM (4evq6)

amen., she is doing good  if not perfectly., in a tough worldfilled with misery , pain and lies.

98 OT:

Beck just slipped in a great one, "I don't know.  I don't have any experience with dictators ... yet."

99 mikethemoose: Too the sheer act of separating oneself from the crowd is individualistic. He finds his opinion in the safety of the collective where he is ensured of affirmation. When or if ever challenged, the challenger becomes the idiot or the devil because they have "attacked" him outside of the herd.

100 So progress, explain to me again why an atheist can't believe that the universe is a mathmatical construct.

101

That would assume that said atheist believed that the universe were a rational place, subject to unchanging, rational laws - specifically, laws that are expressible in mathematical form.  But there is no reason for anyone to believe that, so a smart atheist would not take such a position, since it would imply the existence of a meta-physics (demanding the adherence of the universe to logic - a human construct) and that person would no longer be a true atheist (as in Einstein's famous, "G-d does not play dice with the universe" statement - even though Einstein was not a lover of any formal religion).

I take your point, although it seems we should see lot more randomness in the universe if it was true.  But it doesn't matter in any event, as I definitely agree with your conclusion: 

Any true atheist would be living in a cloud of confusion all the time, but it wouldn't matter, because everything to an atheist is devoid of meaning or purpose.

102

Upscale , she might have an false assumption because of where's she's been. give her time to process.

 imagine her former existance.

If she did good by G-d on a small scale, it counts for her, in my tradition.

if she doesn't get her masters at it, so what? she does good for us to speak against a former existance that brought hell to everything.

layers of decency.  i believe in that.

 

103 So progress, explain to me again why an atheist can't believe that the universe is a mathmatical construct.

Posted by: dagny at June 14, 2010 05:31 PM (l/5bp)

Because, the idea that the universe is rational and has rational laws brings up the idea of a meta-physics that dictates those laws and imposes them on the universe.  This is what rational examination would lead one to. 

We are wedded to the idea of cause and effect, as humans.  One cannot see an effect and go without forming some opinion of the cause that brought it about.

In sum, there is no reason to assume that the universe is rational.  One only takes that view if one has an idea of something larger than the universe, and one allows for the idea of a physically existent perfection - the universe, itself.  We like to think this is all true, but there is no rational argument that supports it.

104

The physical fighting of the Cold War was mainly fought in Korea, Vietnam, the Middle East and Afghanistan with tens of other proxy skirmishes around the world.   The Soviet Union didn't just disband on their own.  

Which gets me to thinking about Battles Of the Soviet-American War:

Battle of Greece and Turkey (1947) - US military and political victory

Battle of Korea (1950-1953) - military draw

First Battle of Vietnam (1947-54) - Soviet military victory 

Battle of Suez (1956) - Soviet political victory

Hungarian Revolt (1956) - Soviet military victory, US political victory

Battle of Cuba (1959-61) - Soviet military and political victory

Battle of Congo (1959-1965) - US political victory

Czech Revolt (196 - Soviet military victory, US political victory

Space Race (1957-1969) - US political victory

Second Battle of Vietnam (1959-1975) - Soviet military and political victory

Battle of Angola and Mozambique (1975) Soviet political victory

Battle of Horn of Africa (1975) - Soviet political victory

Polish Revolt (1981-1983) - Soviet military victory, US political victory

Battle of Grenada (1983) - US military victory

Missile Propaganda War (1983) - US political victory

Battle of El Salvador (1979-1990) - US political victory

Battle of Nicaragua (1979-1990) - US political victory

Battle of Afghanistan (1979-1990) - US political victory

Eastern European Revolts (1989-1990) - US political victory

am I missing any?

105 So if we hadn't fought all those bloody battles, Soviet Communism would have magically worked?

106 In countries as free as the U.S., the blinders some people wear are put on voluntarily.

107 I smell pride.

108

So if we hadn't fought all those bloody battles, Soviet Communism would have magically worked?

In the absence of opposition? Yes. It would have worked horribly, but in the absence of an opponent, it *would* work.

109

am I missing any?

Berlin Airlift (194 , Berlin Occupation (1953), Dominican Republic (1965), Arab-Israel Wars (1967, 1973), Chile (1973), ...

Am I missing any?

110

Upscale, i would believe than Martin Luther has a price to pay.

listen. if you hear words out of the mouth of a rabbi, or a priest, what are your expectaions?

if you hear the words out of the mouth of a former terrorized woman from Islam. what are you expectations?

totally different. i would hope.

she Doesn't in any way say she speaks for G-d, she speaks of her experiences and fear of religion possible tyranny.

111 Th Soviets won World War II, singlehandedly, and it looks like they kicked America's ass in the cold war, too.

112

@67: "Still, as an atheist, she's just as guilty of cogntive dissonance.  Why does she care about whether Islam eventually conquers the world, or anything else?  A logically consistent atheist knows, to paraphrase Camus, that it all ends in meaningless oblivion whether you choose course x or course y."

The journey's the thing.  If course x involves a society that accepts her atheism and is happy to let her live with her choice, it is a far better outcome than course y, which adopts an "Infidel!!! I kill you!" approach.

113

Berlin Airlift (194, Berlin Occupation (1953), Dominican Republic (1965), Arab-Israel Wars (1967, 1973), Chile (1973), ...

Good, yah, there were many battles, wen't they?

114

<i>"Fondant is flat sheets of icing that dry to a semi-hard state."</i>

I'm still on the fence as whether or not fondant is meant to be eaten.

115

there were many battles, wen't they?

Plus there were the battles for the Western newsrooms, classrooms and halls of government. I'd say the good guys got our butts handed to us on all three counts.

116 So progress, explain to me again why an atheist can't believe that the universe is a mathmatical construct.

Posted by: dagny at June 14, 2010 05:31 PM (l/5bp)

Because, the idea that the universe is rational and has rational laws brings up the idea of a meta-physics that dictates those laws and imposes them on the universe.  This is what rational examination would lead one to. 

We are wedded to the idea of cause and effect, as humans.  One cannot see an effect and go without forming some opinion of the cause that brought it about.

In sum, there is no reason to assume that the universe is rational.  One only takes that view if one has an idea of something larger than the universe, and one allows for the idea of a physically existent perfection - the universe, itself.  We like to think this is all true, but there is no rational argument that supports it.

Bravo! The simplest idea, that the universe exists as a mathematical construct without a higher power, presupposes an object of unimaginable magnitude in perfect order exists without something to have put it in order. One could just as easily argue flipping a quarter 6.027X10²³ times coming up entirely heads having been a random event. Or in the words of Einstein "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."

117

Fa Cube:  "Better" in what way?  Please define "better" without making reference to religion.  I say it can't be done.  In the end, an atheist must admit that his idea of "better" is just an opinion.   

118

@97: "Any true atheist would be living in a cloud of confusion all the time, but it wouldn't matter, because everything to an atheist is devoid of meaning or purpose."

Very little confusion, actually.  Rorschach from The Watchmen got it right:

"Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. ItÂ’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach. Does that answer your questions, Doctor?"

119 Fa Cube:  "Better" in what way?  Please define "better" without making reference to religion.  I say it can't be done.  In the end, an atheist must admit that his idea of "better" is just an opinion.

I agree on premise that "better" presupposes an objective of man that cannot exist as an absolute sans God. But, this is where I differ from you, personal survival is a very strong instinct, and on a personal level an absolute good due to instinctive emotions that keep us cleaving to life. In other words, an argument for personal preservation, even in the absence of a greater power, while it cannot be reconciled with an absolute good, can be reconciled with a personal good, which is all that is necessary to have an intellectually consistent argument. "Well I get to survive."

120

@128: ""Better" in what way?  Please define "better" without making reference to religion.  I say it can't be done.  In the end, an atheist must admit that his idea of "better" is just an opinion."

EVERYTHING is a matter of opinion.  A masochist might well prefer a system where everyone who doesn't conform with the majority belief system - even if the sum total of that system is that the infield fly rule is crowing achievement of mankind -  is brutally tortured as opposed to one where non-conformists are given a bowl of ice-cream and wished well.  A sadist definitely would.  Most of the rest of the people out there, regardless of their take on the infield fly rule, would probably opine that the ice-cream approach is preferable.

121 Does that answer your questions, Doctor?

Actually, no. From the objective point, the entire answer is made to befuddle with extreme imagery. The answer, simple, "I believe that life itself is a purposeless endeavor." can be soundly rejected on the basis that, without higher meaning, it still has personal meaning, which is why you do the things you do. Otherwise you would do only that needed to eat sleep and screw, with no extra effort or vision. So since additional effort and vision is always the case for those sitting across on the couch, "why do you go?" is an imminently fair question that deserves a better answer.

122 Most of the rest of the people out there, regardless of their take on the infield fly rule, would probably opine that the ice-cream approach is preferable

And here we see the seeds that will be liberalism. Moral relativism, the majority rule of morality is the basis society should use? Then this arguement with a majority of stupid supporters, could easily say, "Utilitarianism is best", and without higher moral authority damn the means to to the ends, and be justified in pursuing with violent tenor the absolute homogenization of society.

It becomes very difficult without presupposing a God, or denying the majority morality, to argue that mankind should be free.

123

Fa Cube:  See, I'm not sure that everything is a matter of opinion.  If indeed we have immortal souls, AND the soul survives death, AND there are consequences for the surviving soul based on our earthly actions, then a code of absolute morals is possible.

Anyway, was that your definition of "better"?  What most people prefer?  I'm with Mencken on that one:  Democracy is the idea that the common man knows what he wants, and deserves to get it good and hard.     

124 The solution of all moral and social problems lies in the answer we give to the questions, What am I? How am I related to others? If my body and I are one and the same thing—if, to use a phrase in which an eminent man of letters once summed up the opinions which he believed to be held by an eminent scientific man—we are all ‘sarcoïdous peripatetic funguses,’ and nothing more, good health and moderate wealth are blessings infinitely and out of all comparison greater than any others. I think that a reasonable fungus would systematically repress many other so-called virtues which often interfere with health and the acquisition of a reasonable amount of wealth. If, however, I am something more than a fungus —if, properly speaking, the fungus is not I at all, but only my instrument, and if I am a mysteriously permanent being who may be entering on all sorts of unknown destinies—a scale is at once established among my faculties and desires, and it become natural to subordinate, and if necessary to sacrifice, some of them to others.

125 I found this entertaining. On one hand the left accuses us right-leaners are being hicks who can't tell the difference between a Lora Piana cashmere and a seed sack, and on the other, they accuse us of being smug elitists who sit around sipping Joseph Phelps reserve, while lighting our cigarettes with Dunhill lighters (oh God! they smoke? Pshaw!).

 Please lefties, would you make up your mind? Are we classless hicks or the rich and spoiled? You see, we can't be both!

126 ...including at one of those cocktail parties -- actually a dinner party -- we've heard so much about. This one hosted by David Frum.

You call that a fucking party, neighbor???...FUCK THAT SHIT!!!

127 Disclaimer: I have not read all the above comments, and I am just as sorry as Ted Kennedy was about that Oldsmobile thing.

Regarding the mention of 'Nat Shermans' left on the outdoor smoking area in the Garden following Dinner, I did some digging to satisfy my moron desire to determine what a 'Nat Sherman" was. 

I found this on their website:

"Due to the enactment of new Federal legislation, Nat Sherman will no longer be able to honor and ship your mail orders for our all natural cigarette products. President Obama signed into law earlier this month the “Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act” (PACT Act). While the intent of this law is to end cigarette smuggling, which we support, the unintended consequence on law-abiding business, like ours, will make it illegal to ship cigarettes thru the U.S. Postal Service. Other carriers, such as Federal Express and United Parcel Service have previously ceased the delivery of tobacco products to individual consumers."

Heh.

128 For the last time ... "Cognitive Dissonance" is a problem that Leftists do NOT suffer from.  It is the "does not compute" message that appears in the brain of a sane, rational person when trying to reconcile two irreconcilable ideas.  It is the headache that a paradox creates in the NORMAL brain.  The problem with Leftists is that they do NOT suffer from "Cognitive Dissonance", and are therefore readily able to believe two mutually exclusive things at the same time.

129 Wow, that was a great post.
Liberals are pricks.

130 Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Cognitive Dissonance Tour —Ace

 

(yawn) Is this a sequel to a loony Charles Johnson rant? Inquiring minds want to know.