A friend of mine has been working against budget cuts for her local schools.

Guess what the schools do to get people fighting for them? The first place they talk about cutting is those arts and music programs.

Not the layers and layers of administration. Not making anything more efficient.

They are good at getting sympathy, if not at educating children or anything else.

 Instead of our local newsrag saying, "hey, tighten your belts" they're writing up how hard it will be on the arts programs and they'll maybe have to cut bus service.

Yeh, the media is at fault for reporting this b.s. as if it were true, instead of noticing that it is a crock full of brown stuff that stinks.

Posted by: Mallamutt at April 14, 2010 03:10 PM (V9SYy) "

Of course you know, if we actually look at the trends of funding versus performance, we should be defunding education on principle.

Guess what the schools do to get people fighting for them? The first place they talk about cutting is those arts and music programs.

Not the layers and layers of administration. Not making anything more efficient.

Federal, state, and local grant administers eat up tons of cash and they're essentially worthless. They ought to be the first to go. I can't tell you the number of people who have this job that don't know the most basic details about the data of the program they oversee.

Milwaukee Public schools are a fucking sewer.  The AVERAGE the AVERAGE pay for a TEACHER/UNION HACK/FAILURE in Milwaukee Public Schools is  $100,000.00 @ year.   56 salary 44 bennies.  9 months of work and you can retire a 55.

That is the AVERAGE.

Then they should get to vote twice. And federal bureaucrats average more than 50% higher salaries than teachers, so they should each get at least three votes. Because they pay taxes.

With tax money. Mostly from people who "don't pay taxes." But hey.

Posted by: pendejo grande at April 14, 2010 03:09 PM (JHZ+N)

Umm... did you mean 'dike' or is there someone special in New Jersey politics to whom you're referring?

School cuts should start with the principles, school board and administrative people. Not the teachers.

There is no reason for them to be immune from salary/benefits freezes or cuts. Tax collection is down because people have lost their jobs. Why should anyone be off-limits from a pay cut?

 love this part, "The economic stimulus law enacted in 2009 provided nearly $100 billion for education, much of it to help states avoid layoffs. "

Oh we need MORE money because we can't run a school system with local dollars on 10% sales tax(california)!!! 

What the Hell do other states spend the money on?!?!  NH has no sales or income tax.  I ask again, What do the other states spend the tax money on? 

I'd love some nice bike trails and parks but you only need 1% of the tax base for those.   The bigger states have more highways to maintain but you get fed money for that already, wasted on God knows what. 

Posted by: Chris B at April 14, 2010 03:20 PM (HDVpQ)

Yes, because the teachers have so well fulfilled their principal duties, like teaching the principles of correct spelling -- including making the correct choice between homophones.  Oh, wait: the teacher's unions probably told their members that in the name of equality, they aren't allowed to speak to their students of homophones or homonyms, not until the unions come up with politically correct terms to replace those hate-laden ones.

 "We setup a whole chain of Grocery Stores/Learning Centers in "blighted" urban areas. "

Why just in Blighted areas? do this everywhere, put them to work,  then maybe I wouldn't have to sack up my own Beer and TV dinners.

At least then these little brats would get some job skills, something today's Publik Edjumakashun leaves them without.

.....trying valiently to keep a finger in the dyke.

There is a joke in there somewhere....

#34 Yes, because the teachers have so well fulfilled their principal duties, like teaching the principles of correct spelling -- including making the correct choice between homophones.  Oh, wait: the teacher's unions probably told their members that in the name of equality, they aren't allowed to speak to their students of homophones or homonyms, not until the unions come up with politically correct terms to replace those hate-laden ones

DADT, Dude

We're hiring a new Associate Dean at my college. That's so the real Dean can loaf. The Associate Dean will get an Athletic Director hire...That's so HE can loaf too. The AD will just fuck off most of the time too.

They'll be loafing together soon at the golf course ... the snow has melted and it's warming up nicely. It's good to be an educational Administrator.

Hey!  What about getting rid of the Department of Education entirely?  No, no... hear me out on this.  I'm just talking about the Federal Department of Education.  We could push those costs and responsibilities down to the state level, where they'll be able to react quicker and with more precision to the needs of the students than the federal level would. 

What do you think?

Posted by: stuiec at April 14, 2010 03:26 PM (W+GYq) "

Maybe that's one of the principles they cut?

Anway, seriously discussion of teacher salaries needs to keep in mind that they aren't working year round without extra pay and fight tooth and nail any 5 minute increase in time worked. Usually have great benefits, too, and (regardless of the possibly good reasons for it) next to no accountability for their daily work.

I was a teacher for a year. Salary was decent, job sucked--but no matter how bad or nice a job is, you can't pay it what you don't have, and gov't workers--like any other--need to realize they are only there as long as the money to pay them is there.

Posted by: Jean at April 14, 2010 03:40 PM (mtAmx)

It's not the air conditioning, it's the historic need for students to work the fields in summer.  Which makes little sense in a nation where agricultural jobs account for about 3 percent of the total.

Malcolm Gladwell (Blink, The Tipping Point) wrote a great book called Outliers that looks at the less-obvious reasons for disparities in life outcomes.  One key factor that divides low-income students' performance from high-income students' performance is that in summer, high-income parents tend to keep their kids active and engaged in learning-related pursuits - camp, summer school, trips to the museum, whatever - whereas low-income parents are more likely to leave their kids at home in front of the TV.  And in September, the low-income kids have forgotten more than the high-income ones have, so they lag -- and the lag worsens with each year.  Year-round schools actually do help fight that problem.

"Damn the GOP for letting W. Bush sign the Porkulus and for not pointing out the rotten cities the democrats have run"

You mean TARP. Stimulus (the big one) was all Obama, almost only D votes.

 along with tenured job security

Why should tenure exist?

This isn't the university, so don't give me those "ability to publish without getting fired" arguments.

52  Teacher's salaries are not the same as lawyers and doctors (or UAW workers), but compared to many people they make a very, very good salary -- that coupled with a pretty good retirement plan and decent healthcare (some school districts are better than others -- ours isn't so hot, but there is private healthcare they can afford to make ends meet)...for the amount of time on the job?  It's a cherry job!  There's nothing saying you can't work a pt/temp job on the side during your vacation time and make even more stash.

Now, it used to be, back in the day when teachers actually taught, that the wage per hour could be pretty crappy -- taking all that grading home and making up lesson plans did not get factored into the hours you actually worked, some places, with that in mind, you were lucky to be pulling the equivalent of $5 an hour.  Homework and self made lesson plans are pretty much a thing of the past now -- and the grading is done in class, by the students themselves, or they use that scantron test thingy.  How bullshit is that?  It's very bad for math, science, history, but what it has done to English/reading/grammar is hideous.  The affects of this shift are now starting to show up at the front of the classroom (watched in horror as a tenured teacher I was doing classroom observation on basically taught her class how to compose run-on sentences and comma splices -- as correct sentence structure; she even mispelled some words and did not catch them).  Don't get me started on teachers enforcing the rules: it doesn't happen; I have watched two teachers taking their classes out to the park for a "field trip" -- kids got into a scuffle, one kid clearly bullying and beating the crap out of another kid.  I broke it up, asked the kids who was watching them -- these two broads were half the way across the park, chatting, with their faces stuffed in their salads (which they needed a lot more of to do the job they intended...maybe if they got off their fat asses and watched the damn kids).  I yelled at them too; didn't do much to make them get with it and do their jobs.  And we've had 5 cases of teacher-student sexual activitiy (one within the 5th grade) -- nothing got done about them, other than the one in 5th grade retired (with full pension and no charges) and the others got fired but it was not mentioned as cause for firing, so they are free to go to any other school and teach again.

Do not allow these frakkers to be bailed out.  Do not!

THE AVERAGE MILWAUKEE SCHOOL TEACHER MAKES $100,000.00 PER YEAR.   9 MONTHS OF WORK 3 MONTHS OF VACATION.

30 YEARS and RETIRE. 

9% of Milwaukee 4th graders can read.

45% HighSchool graduation rate in Milwaukee Public schools.

Less than 80,000 students.

Over $1 Billion dollar budget  $12,500.00 per kid.

6200 teachers.

Hey Chris b.   Are you good at math son?

Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 14, 2010 03:41 PM (mR7mk)

Consider moving down around my area and taking up teaching.  The private schools pay less than the public ones, but the quality of students are better and you, generally, have more leeway to fail a kid who's goofing off.

Posted by: joeindc44 at April 14, 2010 03:41 PM (QxSug)

Point of clarification: Bush signed TARP.  The Porkulus is all on Obama.  (Unless you mean Bush's $300 checks to individuals - maybe not a great plan, but at least not subject to the political manipulation of the Porkulus.)

The stimulus bill of 2009 was all about paying union salaries and pensions.  That's how many, many school districts last year managed to (somewhat) balance their budgets.  The states got bailout money, and funneled it to schools.  Oh, and the states bought a lot of those orange highway signs, you've seen them, they state that "THIS PROJECT IS A BENEFIT OF THE AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT ACT".

Except there's no road building or pothole patching going on, it's all a bunch of signs and orange highway cones.  All the actual money went to pay bloated salaries, benefits, and pensions of the government workforce.

Chickens coming home to roost.  Bankrupt states are still bankrupt and can't print money like DC can.

Hey Christine, do yourself a big favor.

Google Milwaukee Public school teachers average $100,000.00

Then go fuck yourself again.

Except there's no road building or pothole patching going on, it's all a bunch of signs and orange highway cones.  All the actual money went to pay bloated salaries, benefits, and pensions of the government workforce.

Posted by: Boots at April 14, 2010 03:55 PM (06JTY)

Hey, they just repaved the road near my house with ARRA money!  Funny thing about that: the year before, they had to replace a water and sewer line all along that road, which meant repaving it when they were done.  And then ARRA passed, so they repaved it again!  Isn't that nice of them?

Oh, yeah, tomorrow is Tax Day, isn't it?  Time to pay for that repaving....

This is the ONE kid who doesn't want to homeschool with me next year, BECAUSE OF BAND.

Well, then I will hope for them to cut band so that she stays home next year, lol.

26 As far as I understand, the real cost in public education is special ed.

Plenty of truth in that statement, because the federal govt over the years has passed many laws requiring specific services be delivered to students, up to the age of 21.  Local school districts must comply or they will be sued by parents who hire lawyers who specialize in "education law".  It is very expensive to hire a lawyer to fight a lawsuit from a parent who wants more services for their child, and if the school district loses they have to pay for the service, and pay for the other attorney, and sometimes damages too. 

Posted by: Vic at April 14, 2010 03:25 PM (QrA9E)

This is exactly what I tell my asshole lib friends that consider the public schools to be the holy fucking grail of this country.  The Founding Fathers doubtlessly considered an educated populace to be important but no fucking way did they think that it was a responsibility of de gubbiment to provide it.  It's called personal responsibility which none of the fuckhead libs understand.

Posted by: AngelEm in Texas at April 14, 2010 03:57 PM (Aq93A) "

Then it seems that long term it is in your daughter's advantage thay they cut band.

Private school, that is where the 'wee pitchfork' is going.

damn, it's expensive on my salary, tops my mortage payment, but I consider it money well spent...i've seen the public school  kids in our neighborhood. damn kids do not know how to cross the fricking street.    same kids will be voting in a few years. scary

Chrithy oh Chritthy here ith what that nathty man wath talking about.

http://tinyurl.com/y6m487v

The district my wife works in (in CA) has very few administrators. For example, each elementary school has precisely 1 Principal, who also  has a secretary and clerk. It is a small district but from our experience it is the teachers and their benefits/pensions that are the primary cause of our financial troubles.

It may be different in your respective districts and you may benefit from reducing administrators, but that only proves that education is a distinctly local problem that needs to be evaluated and resolved locally. Keep the Feds out of it!

Oh dear Chris B. looks like your ass just got kicked.

agian.

The first place they talk about cutting is those arts and music programs.

Excuse me, but fuck the arts and music programs. You want to learn music? Take lessons. Same for art.

Our public school gives laptops to 8th graders and up, has climbing walls, a new $700,000,000 green high school, bicycles for gym, a day care center and state of the art playground, a planned parenthood office on site, babyseats in the school busses and a million administrators and parking garages. That is all I have heard about---I'm sure it's just the tip of the ice berg. Oh yeah, PAID foreign exchange trips. The tax payers have fled the system, in a city that is 85% white the school system is 19% white and 79% free or reduced lunch. The entire debacle is a welfare program.

Fucking teach the kids to read, write and do math. For that you need a blackboard, chalk, pencils, and paper and a few books. A principal and a teacher for every 30 kids. You don't even need a cafeteria, they can bring their own. Enough.

"I don't know where you got these stats from. My wife is a teacher. She makes about 60k a year including summer school, pays for at least 80% of her health care plan out of her salary (I'm serious it's like 600$ a month) Her retirement plan is a 403b. She spends most evenings some weekends and much of her, during the school year vacation, planning lessons and doing grading. AND I'M IN CALIFORNIA! Compared to other jobs that require a four year degree, it sucks. "

5 years, usually, since you need a credential.

Still, if the money isn't there*, they shouldn't get it. Time to run gov't with some basis in fiscal reality.

*I'm sure there are some other places to cut too, but it's time to end the perpetual whining for more money when that has so little impact on performance.

Our little town doesn't even have school buses, so they hire taxis to tote the knuckleheads to school. Meanwhile, I walk to the train station.

Our teachers average 80k, but many top out around 110k. Plus, they pay not penny one toward their health plan and no co-pay, ever. Entire family covered, the teacher until death.

Needless to say, when the belt needed tightened, the local Education Association proposed laying off the janitors and bidding it out to a private company.

This is a point I've made many times about our public education system: it's not a sytem for educating the young; it's a jobs program for the adults. And the dysfunction at all levels in school districts large and small reflect that simple fact. "Reform" is always pitched as an effort to help the children, but inevitably it comes down to keeping more teachers and administrators on the payroll.

I pin most of the blame on the system of tenure, which pretty much kills any incentive a teacher has to maintain any kind of quality. Combine that with the gender/race-based politics of most large public-school systems, and what you have is a public-worker combine that works only to perpetuate itself, not to educate children.

Chris.  http://tiny?url.com/y6m487v  B.  http://tinyurl.com/y6m487v Where did you go???  http://tinyurl.com/y6m487v  Don't you like me anymore Chissy???

http://tinyurl.com/y6m487v

Posted by: t-bird at April 14, 2010 04:08 PM (nwnZQ) "

Sorry, we're fresh out of that. Would you be interested in a subject called history where you can learn about evil slaving imperialst Americans and the brave transgendered minorities they oppressed?

No. I live in the other California.

I was educated in  survived the Oakland Public Schools.

89  Around here there has been a shift towards higher salaries for teachers -- 10 years ago they were making, tenured, about 40K a year (with doing lesson plans and the whole works); now, the same position and tenure will get you 70K (and you have lesson plan outlines given to you, or available online and there is no homework; some of the old school teachers still grade themselves, but many have gone to scantron tests and/or having the students do the grading).

How do I know this?  I was a teacher until 06 and a sub through 07.  Around here, teachers who did it "old school" were quietly and behind closed doors told it might be time to retire -- over half of my collegues at every place I taught are now no longer there; all newer, younger teachers in those spots.

Purple Avenger, when we were spending more that other nations on Health Care Opie said it was a bad thing and took over HEALTH CARE by the government.

What if GOVERNMENT took over PUBLIC SCHOOLS????  Would there be Unions?  I mean if the "GOVERNMENT" took over Milwaukee Public Schools what would the graduation rate be??

Oh.  Wait?   The government DOES run the Schools.

Our little town doesn't even have school buses, so they hire taxis

No. Way.

We didn't have school buses. We took the local buses and paid for it.

Garbonzo.  57k doesn't scratch the surface.  Vacation, and bennies and retirement will put that well over $100,000.

Where did Chris B. the fairy boat go to ???

Curious

There is a blog called cmblake6.wordpress. that has information on the Obama soccer game that he went to.  It is interesting.  There is reason to wonder about it.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 14, 2010 04:14 PM (7VvJB)

Add to that the fact that nowadays, everyone has access to more information and more textbooks, FREE, through the internet than anyone in the world had only 20 years ago - let alone the minimal access to, and high cost of, information a hundred years ago or even 50 years ago.

It's truly amazing that the more accessible and the cheaper information is, the less our kids know and the more we have to pay incompetents to allegedly teach them.

I can't believe teachers don't all do a fantastic job, because the kids that arrive at school are all bright-eyed and eager to learn. Their families are always intact, involved and supportive. The teachers can discipline as needed, with support from administration and school boards, in order to provide a safe and secure learning environment. There are no societal factors at play at all--teaching takes place in a vacuum. They're not forced to use libtarded curricula, nor do they have to jump through political hoops. It's so great, people are clamoring to get into teaching jobs.

Yeah, I can't fathom why a lot of public education doesn't work.

Chris B.  Serious question.  How retarded are you?   Who the fuck would hire a pussy like you??   Government right??

This is addressed to the Gus and Heather.

Heather, $100,000 is not what the teachers are making. That figure includes the benefits package. The average salary is $56,000. The benefits package includes retirement and insurance. Analysis skills are always your friend.

Gus, personal attacks do nothing to support your position.

Below are three links that provide the starting pay scales of firefighters, police and teachers in Los Angeles California. Note that both the firefighters and police are paid higher. For an educator to get to their highest pay levels they MUST have a Masters degree.

I wish to also stress that teachers must have a bachelors degree along with an extra year for their credential. Neither firefighters nor police need a college degree.

Someone mentioned teachers only working 9 months, itÂ’s actually 10 and donÂ’t forget firefighters and the time they have off.

The police and firefighters both have better retirement packages than teachers. Police and firefighters may retire at 100% of their pay scale and still have their insurance. Teachers after 30 years get 70% and are put on Medicare.

As an ex-firefighter and a teacher I know what I am talking about.

Let me see if I understand you 48%.   Liberals fuck up inner cities and pay losers to have babies since the mid 60's.  Libs approve of dysfunction and tax us to keep infected shit holes infected.  Then we dump BILLLLLIONS  into the school systems and then wonder why the kids don't learn.

Here is a message for you.   Why would be pay a lot for such SHITTY RESULTS??  We could have CRACK WHORES teach kids who won't learn.

So maybe you missed the point son.  The OPIE POSSE wants to dumb BILLLLLLIONS more into a festering SHITHOLE.

What say you?

Unfortunately the site wouldnÂ’t let me post the links even using tunyurl.com. Oh well. Go to payscale.com and under Los Angeles do a police, firefighter and teacher. You will find that the starting salary for firefighters and police is $53,000 and teachers start at $50,000. Hardly over paid in my view.

Thorisin, my position was SUPPORTED by FACTS.   Your opinion is not.

I am 100% correct about Milwaukee Public Schools being a deep dark shit hole of mispent BILLIONS.

Next time you post, bring some facts with you K?

As an ex-firefighter, you are welcome for the TAXPAYER supporting you in your nice retirement.  Thank you for your service.

Richard Shelby? From Alabama , my former home state? The same state ranked 49th in edumacation? The same state whose motto, when it comes to being next to last on the national list, is "Thank goodness for Mississippi?"

That Richard Shelby?

Thorisin did what libs do.  He went to his MOMMY (government) for his milk.

Then he pontificates from his "view" as a retired (taxpayer supported) fire fighter.

I have no problem with Cops, Teachers nor Fire Fighters.  I have a problem with ungrateful libtard teat suckers.

I say I don't like the system either. I don't like liberals, liberal shitholes, and the Opie Posse. The point was there are many factors influencing education, not just the bloated budgets; the main factor to me is the breakdown of the family unit.

 I believe in local school board control and for the government to keep its hands off. Possibly things would improve. But it ain't all Leave it to Beaver, nor are all teachers the guys from SouthPark and Beavis & Butthead.

Someone mentioned teachers only working 9 months, itÂ’s actually 10 and donÂ’t forget firefighters and the time they have off. The police and firefighters both have better retirement packages than teachers.

Not in my state.

Plus scores keep dropping, and private schools do it for a third of the price and have better scores.  So you think the status quo is good, well bully for you.  Shouldn't you be grading papers or something?

What do firefighters' salaries have to do with anything?

Completely different kind of job, wouldn't you say?

138 I bet when they came to kindergarten most of them were bright eyed and eager to learn. The system is bad for them. The lack of discipline, allowing parents to opt-out, allowing kids to slip by, HURTS the child. If they are not MADE to learn, they will decline into problem children. The only way they can not fail is to be held accountable.

Come on. You're blaming the teachers for what their families do or don't do? When they discover weed in 3rd grade, that's the school's fault? Ask my wife about the meetings she schedules that no parents show up for. I guess that's her fault. The education profession has earned a lot of criticism, but give me a break.

159 I indeed don't blame the teachers. I never said that. We cannot put teachers in a position where they have to put up with the crap that comes their way. If a child is a problem they have to be removed until they can partisipate. Suspended, suspended, expelled.

The catholic and private schools do not put up with behavioural problems for very long. The pubic schools need to come up with an incentive for the parents--perhaps they lose their child credit if they can't get their kids to school and they can't get them to behave.

Right now the expectation is that the scum of the earth send their scum of the earth child to school without any behavioral expectations and that there is nothing that can be done while they disrupt the class.

There have always been lazy people and criminals. What did they do then? Do all the other countries have this problem? What works?

polynikes at April 14, 2010 04:28 PM (m2CN7)

Several reasons. I got tired of humping hose in the heat in the summer in the boonies. I didnÂ’t like pulling people I knew out of cars and I hated watching children die. Having someone die in your hands can be a profound life changing experience.

I felt I had a different calling and teaching was it.

And before I get attacked as a freak liberal I lean conservative. I am a rare breed. A conservative teacher in California

We don't eat out much and I drive a 12 year old car, but its worth it.

it's worth every dime.  wouldn't have it any other way

Ha! on the sign lanuage thingy. I know exactly what you mean, all the gesturing she was doing, it was a scream. and I, learned from her.  Great moments, with greater ones, on the horizon.

Probably not Federal, but, Locke was a proponent of public education, and the founders were big proponents of Locke, so to say they opposed the idea of government providing for education without citation is a weak argument.

Since Locke's  essay Some Thoughts Concerning Education didn't include the poor, I'd say you shouldn't be casting off on weak arguments.  He also described education for the upper and "middling" classes as being provided by parishes or private tutors.  I understand that parishes could be regarded as kind of like "public", but they're really quite different.

I will stipulate that up to 50% of the teachers (certainly no more than that, though) are motivated and well-trained to do their jobs. The problem with the public school combine isn't (entirely) the fault of the teachers. Again, it comes down to the purpose of the public school. It's gone from being a basic tool for creating a citizen of the Republic to a catch-all parent-substitute. Schools are guardians, babysitters, referees, tutors, counselors, and a hundred other things -- and must often serve in place of rather than in support of the parents because the parents more often than not simply don't give a shit.

And there is the completely unrealistic goals of the citizens and politicians as to what an educational system can and cannot accomplish. Saying that half of all children are below average in intelligence is doing nothing more than stating a simple fact. Yet stating this fact in public makes people go berzerk and leads to stupid "No Child Left Behind" or "Race To The Top" boondoggles that do nothing while squandering billions of dollars that would be better-spent elsewhere.

Here's a fact: not every kid is capable of (or amenable to) a college education. Yet every single educational pitch is always aimed at "send your kids to college"! Well, this simply guarantees one of two outcomes: a) the failure of one-half to one-third of enrollees, or b) the dumbing-down of the curriculum so more kids can pass. It turns college into yet another version of high school. It penalizes the brighter kids and drives costs into the stratosphere. The duller kids are not given realistic training and goals for their lives; instead, they are set up for failure and frustration that will ruin any chances they have at success in their jobs later on. Just because a kid is not mentally cut out to be a physicist or surgeon doesn't mean he or she can't do a bang-up job as an electrician or carpenter or chef or any one of a thousand other trades -- but because these are not "college track" options and no parent wants to admit their kid is not college-bound, we warp our entire educational system to perpetuate the fiction that every single kid is just as smart as every single other kid when this is manifestly untrue.

Until we can be honest with ourselves, as a people, about what "intelligence" and "ability" really mean (and what we are really capable of instead of what we wish we were capable of), then our school system is predestined to fail in its task.

Discipline Discipline Discipline. Certain parents and their lawyers have taken away that major component. It's just not the way it was even 10 years ago.

There is a mechanism to get rid of bad teachers, but they get due process. I think it requires all kinds of documentation. My wife's school just unloaded one last month.

Thanks for the info Dagny

Gus, I didnÂ’t retire from the fire department. I put in 5 years and got out. I then spent 20 years in the private sector, including a 7 year stint in NASCAR. Attacking someone without facts is never in good form.

Posted by: Monty at April 14, 2010 04:52 PM (4Pleu)

Truth.

"I will not rest, nor will I stop spending money - even illegally from the federal coffers - until every schoolchild tests in the top 10% ... like our Indonesian Imbecile who is about to reduce your insurance premiums by 3000%." -- libtards

One other nugget that public-ed advocates usually gloss over: the worst-performing schools in the nation tend to be in the areas with the highest levels of single-parent households. In other words, if Mom isn't married, then Junior stands a much higher risk of being an educational casualty. Mom must rely on the government (local, state, or federal) to take over the child-rearing duties because she is no longer able or willing to do the job herself.

You want smarter and better-adjusted kids? Convince young mothers to avoid having children until they get married; and then convince them to stay married until the kid is grown up and out of the house. But this requires a level of cultural cohesion and family-friendly policy (taxes, education, etc.) that simply don't exist any more.

And by the way Gus, what I posted was not opinion but fact. Here are the links

http://tinyurl.com/y4dc7xa

http://tinyurl.com/y8xe7po

http://tinyurl.com/ye578wy

This is just payback for the teachers' unions. They need to be rewarded for the last fifty years of creating dumber and dumber kids every year through mandatory government run education. Now it's cascading. Stupid people raising stupider kids.

Welcome to Idiocracy, kids. Not just a movie any more. Don't forget to pour Brawndo on the plants. Soon enough we'll have an electorate that would vote for Sponge Bob and think it's a good idea. When that happens, the bureaucratic ruling class will fuck us forever.

Posted by: Vic at April 14, 2010 04:30 PM (QrA9E)

Point taken Vic, however, the elementary schools in our district have between 400-600 pupils. Administering, at least in this case, does require more than a single person. I suppose it goes back to my final point of keeping the Federal gov't out of our local schools because they simply are not equipped to consider and solve each and every problem in each and every school in each and every district in the country.

True, but intelligence is pretty much normally distributed, so about half are below the mean - though it could be a bit more than half, given some particulars of the structure of the population.

It's pretty close to a standard Gaussian distribution (the "bell curve"). The "nature vs nurture" people have been fighting about this for many years, but no matter how you fidget with the definitions of "IQ", the Gaussian distribution remains.

I suspect that "intelligence" (that amorphous quality that researchers label Q) has a large genetic component, but nurture has a lot to do with how fully people realize their native talent. (For example: you might have a pitching arm to rival Nolan Ryan, but if your parents never let you play Little League, you'll probably never be much of a pitcher regardless of how formidable your raw talent.) And irrespective of a kid's native intelligence, their overall educational development is far better if they have a stable two-parent home life than if they don't.

Posted by: dagny at April 14, 2010 04:27 PM (2gNDi) "

I think the real problem with education failing isn't teachers, though unions don't help kids at all. It is the illegitimacy, fatherless homes, gangs, crime, etc. rampant in urban areas/demographics that perform the worst.

Of course, teachers unions support liberal politicians whose policies encourage all of that above, so they are hardly blameless. And absurd government benefits leads to an outrageous cost of education justified by the disproven belief that underfunding is responsible for poor performance.

Of course, it's all for the children. And by "children" what they really mean is bloated teacher salaries, pension and health care plans and we need more indoctrinated marxist educated children.

183 polynikes at April 14, 2010 05:16 PM (m2CN7)

ItÂ’s not too hard to decipher.

They are both government jobs that serve the public.

And when people complain about how much teachers make and you compare it to other jobs that serve the public you find that teachers are at the low end of the spectrum. Worse retirement, benefits etc.

I would be much more sympathetic to the (some) arguments presented here if they were aimed at the union rather than inflating and misrepresenting teachers pay and benefits. I am hardly a union man.

Posted by: Monty at April 14, 2010 05:16 PM (4Pleu)

No question about that.

Yet one dumbass like Biden will bring the average way way way down.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 14, 2010 05:20 PM (7VvJB)

But Biden is still in the top 10% of the 52% who voted for national suicide on Nov 4th, 2008.  He's still smarter than Mr. "profit and earnings ratios" - though "a three-letter word, 'J-O-B-S'" is close ...  There's likely a wide bulge below the mean, offset by a much smaller bulge at the uppermost tail.  But, I can go with a normal distribution of intelligence as a good rule of thumb, in general.

ItÂ’s not too hard to decipher.

They [firemen and teachers] are both government jobs that serve the public. "

So are milkshake makers and brain surgeons, but we need to look beyond that to determine their pay.

I understand those concepts quite well.

The point I am trying to make is that there are other public sector jobs that have better benefits, retirement and pay. I see all of these inflated numbers directed at teachers while others are ignored. The simple fact of the matter is that as a firefighter I used my back. Now I use my mind.

Why all the anger directed at teachers?

Are the other jobs to be excluded because they are dangerous? I canÂ’t speak to being a police officer but being a firefighter is sometimes dangerous. But then again I was never assaulted as a firefighter. I have had a student take a swing at me. I donÂ’t just sit behind a desk for 8 hours.

Do you think all teenagers in an inner-city school are passive and accept all instructions?

198 Let me add that your argument would be served better by maybe comparing teacher salaries to garbage collecors or toll booth personel.  Do you understand why?

I find it interesting that you think an educators skill set is equivalent to a garbage collectors or a tool booth operator.

"Why all the anger directed at teachers?"

Because every election there is another bond measure on the ballot with their unions begging us to pass it to save education, complaining about how poorly paid they are, do it for the children, etc. When we are overtaxed and over leveraged and simply cannot afford it. Especially when you hear about seven figure pensions being pulled in some places in CA, for example.

Also, teacher compensation varies widely from district to district. There are likely some underpaid teachers still, but that doesn't mean there aren't overpaid, even good ones, elsewhere.

"Do you think all teenagers in an inner-city school are passive and accept all instructions?"

I've been there, and certainly not, not all of them anyway. I taught for a year in Long Beach CA, and left after a year because I got little respect from the kids and felt like I was accomplishing nothing. You couldn't have made me stay by doubling my salary (which it would have eventually, I suppose).

But I'd counter that with two points: 1)When we've increased school budgets wildly, even in urban areas, performance didn't improve. 2) We don't have the money. We haven't for awhile.

In my opinon, one should have access to either high salary, or gov't employment, but not both.

In my school district, there has been an exodus of illegals during the recession. The schools are recieving fewer funds because of fewer pupils in the seats, plus the general, statewide cuts...they are screaming bloody murder about it.

There was a demonstration, complete with children they got to participate from somewhere, that was supposed to move the hearts of any onlookers. It didn't accomplish that with me.

Why should the schools be exempt from what everyone else is experiencing?

203  Randy at April 14, 2010 06:00 PM (zQKSr)

Thanks for the reply Randy. And I do agree with you. I will also say that I am not in favor of this handout.

I have just been surprised at the anger and inflated numbers aimed at teachers.

I would like to disagree with you on one point though. I would argue that teachers retiring at 70% of their final income is not unreasonable. Is it out of line with other retirements?

"I would like to disagree with you on one point though. I would argue that teachers retiring at 70% of their final income is not unreasonable. Is it out of line with other retirements?"

Heh, I'm 30 and privately employed, so I have to go to a dictionary to find out what a pension is. Turns out they still pay you after you stop working. Seems really strange to me, as I have to save money for that! (Well, I will after I get the student loans paid off). Anyway, my retirement plan is stressing the 5th commandment to the off-spring as they grow up.

Public employee pensions, negotiated by unions and the Dem's they helped elect, are one of the leading causes of near bankruptcy for states and cities, so somethings got to change there, reasonable in the past or not. Either the amount or the age at which it kicks in.

I was educated in  survived the Oakland Public Schools.

Posted by: Mama AJ at April 14, 2010 04:11 PM (XdlcF)

Did you go to Oakland High School?

"Where I live teachers, firefighters, and cops are paid too much, and I'm not basing that on comparisons with people in other jobs.  Even when the economy was booming, if one of those positions opened up they got thousands of applicants, and people who work there don't leave until they retire.  Our city could pay its public employees quite a bit less and they'd still get thousands of applicants."

This is a good point. I have a cousin who tried for years to become a fireman after the academy, and a wife that tried for years to get a public school elementary teaching job (I was hired right away with for a science position, I should have held out for the nicer middle school that called right after I signed the papers).

As heartless as it sounds, if there are lots of unemloyed x, x probably pays too much (although all the regulation and crap from Washington usually decreases the demand for most jobs), baring times like ours maybe. That's the law of supply and demand.

Excuse the fuck out of me, but here in California, a 20 year teacher makes almost 90 fucking thousand dollars a year.

Really. Do YOU?

I remember when teachers made the modern equivalent of about $40,000 a year and they had the summer off and went to India and shit. Two of my parents' best friends were teachers and they managed to travel and do more shit than anyone else.

Now, they make huge salaries and expect everyone else to pay for their benefits. And the poor dears can't be expected to teach kids to fucking read in a class bigger than 10, or whatever.

Fuck this noise. Send your kids to Sister Mary Break-Your-Knuckles Academy and starve the publik skools to death.