December 08, 2010
— DrewM Sounds like the Portland, OR case where the freelancing terrorist was dealing with the FBI all along and there was no real danger.
Authorities say an individual has been arrested in the Baltimore area for plotting to blow up a military recruitment center.Marcia Murphy, a spokeswoman for the U.S. attorney's office in Baltimore, confirms to The Associated Press that an arrest has been made and says the individual will appear in court Wednesday afternoon. Murphy did not provide any further details. An FBI spokesman also confirmed the arrest.
FNC just used the guy's name on air and you'll be surprised to find out he's a Muslim convert. I know, right? (the linked story has been updated to include, "Antonio Martinez, a Muslim convert who called himself Muhammed Hussain")
Some liberals, including members of the Glenn Greenwald collective object to these operations. Sure he says they might be catching real terrorist or maybe not.
But it may also just as easily be the case that the FBI -- as they've done many times in the past -- found some very young, impressionable, disaffected, hapless, aimless, inept loner; created a plot it then persuaded/manipulated/entrapped him to join, essentially turning him into a Terrorist; and then patted itself on the back once it arrested him for having thwarted a "Terrorist plot" which, from start to finish, was entirely the FBI's own concoction. Having stopped a plot which it itself manufactured, the FBI then publicly touts -- and an uncritical media amplifies -- its "success" to the world, thus proving both that domestic Terrorism from Muslims is a serious threat and the Government's vast surveillance powers -- current and future new ones -- are necessary.
And the post goes on like that for roughly...ever.
Note to the collective: You know why these operations are important? First, they get potentially dangerous lone wolves out of circulation before they can do real damage. Secondly, it puts doubt in the minds of individuals who might be able to make contact with real terrorists about who they are dealing with. Is the guy giving you a bomb really a 'brother' or is he working for the feds and your ass is about to be swept up by dozens of heavily armed federal agents?
That kind of doubt alone may have stopped plots or will in the future. But of course, the Greenwalds of the world are all that worried about that. It's not the stuff of 3,000 word blog posts.
Posted by: DrewM at
08:00 AM
| Comments (143)
Post contains 431 words, total size 3 kb.
Posted by: Ncj the non-terrorist cabbie at December 08, 2010 08:03 AM (rpNY7)
Posted by: joncelli© at December 08, 2010 08:05 AM (RD7QR)
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 08, 2010 08:05 AM (8nf3A)
There is only one way, and one way only to finally put a stop to this.
Put your hands down my pants.
Posted by: Oh, Hi Mark at December 08, 2010 08:05 AM (VR6ke)
Did you just say the lone bombers aren't real terrorists?
Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 08, 2010 08:05 AM (4ucxv)
Ok that's most of the Moron Nation? OK well scratch the "Young", but otherwise...
Posted by: Paladin at December 08, 2010 08:06 AM (QGbEp)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 08, 2010 08:06 AM (UOM48)
The whole way these operations work is that the FBI waits until someone says, in effect, "Hey, I want to blow up a bunch of innocent civilians. Anyone have a copy of Domestic Terrorism For Dummies?" Then they move in and things get going.
The reason they don't just swoop in and grab the guy is they have to prove that he had actual intent (that is, he wasn't just full of BS) so they offer him assistance, but he still has to put forth some effort to get it. It's a very fine line between a good sting and Entrapment, but the FBI is really, really good at riding on the right side of that line.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:06 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:06 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 08, 2010 08:07 AM (8nf3A)
Speaking of Islamic terrorism, I've been thinking of this analogy for a while.
Let's say that after 9/11 we were successfully attacked, say, 3 more times.
Now let's say that George Bush came out and said, "If it wasn't for the policies my administration and I put in place, we would've been attacked 8 more times."
That's what Obama is saying every time he says his policies saved us from 14% unemployment.
Posted by: Senator Soothsayer (R-AoS) at December 08, 2010 08:07 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:07 AM (QxSug)
...suspect is Hispanic convert. Which I believe makes this arrest double raaaaacist!!
Posted by: HeatherRadish at December 08, 2010 08:08 AM (4ucxv)
I'll bet it's those pesky Lutherans. Upset about their lutefisk being in short supply or something.
Posted by: Hatchet Five at December 08, 2010 08:08 AM (QFpQb)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 08, 2010 12:06 PM (UOM4
Can you make Jello with PETN?
Posted by: ErikW at December 08, 2010 08:08 AM (inlVa)
Posted by: Farmer Joe at December 08, 2010 08:08 AM (z4es9)
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 08, 2010 08:09 AM (8nf3A)
OK, if the FBI can turn you into a terrorist, you're a terrorist.
His defense is, hey look, most Muslims are on the edge of exploding in jihad anyway, if the FBI hadn't pushed, these guys would be picking flowers.
Here's how it apparently goes:
UNDERCOVER FBI AGENT: Do you want to blow up those dirty infidels invading sacred Muslim land?
POTENTIAL JIHADI: No, I don't. Killing is wrong.
UNDERCOVER FBI AGENT: But it's a recruitment center [Christmas tree] for the infidels to wage their unholy wars against the believers.
POTENTIAL JIHADI: Sorry, as much as I disagree with the policy, killing is still wrong and I won't be a part of it.
UNDERCOVER FBI AGENT: It is your sacred duty to slay the unbelievers wherever you may find them.
POTENTIAL JIHADI: Islam means peace.
UNDERCOVER FBI AGENT: Would you do it for a Klondike bar?
POTENTIAL JIHADI: With nuts?...
Posted by: AmishDude at December 08, 2010 08:09 AM (BvBKY)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:09 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 08, 2010 08:09 AM (UOM48)
Posted by: ¤§EZB§¤ at December 08, 2010 08:09 AM (Ty06w)
Straight up Racism!! Film at !11!ty!.
Posted by: Imam Doughgy Crouper, CAIR Cares Public Truth Commission at December 08, 2010 08:09 AM (dEnha)
I think they're trying to imply that this precious snowflake would never have harmed a fly, but those mean, cruel FBI agents tricked him into trying to make a bomb which would have killed or injured scores of people.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:10 AM (8y9MW)
Did you just say the lone bombers U.S. Government aren't real terrorists?
FIFY
Posted by: Lefty Hussein McMoonbat at December 08, 2010 08:10 AM (2jQGY)
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 08:12 AM (02uN6)
1) Born in Pock-eeston and immigrated here
2) Parents born in Pock-eetson and immigrated here
3) Went to jail and was indoctrinated by immigrant from Pock-eeston
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:12 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at December 08, 2010 08:13 AM (RkRxq)
Posted by: WalrusRex at December 08, 2010 08:13 AM (xxgag)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:14 AM (QxSug)
They are the biggest child porno kings in the country.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:14 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: SurferDoc at December 08, 2010 08:14 AM (o3bYL)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 08, 2010 08:15 AM (UOM48)
holy shit, I hope this guy wasn't stuffing turkeys with C-4 and shit.
Or else all our Christmas turkeys will have to be inspected by a govt employee before we eat it.
Posted by: Senator Soothsayer (R-AoS) at December 08, 2010 08:16 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 08, 2010 12:09 PM (UOM4
I have not. My Son is his jailer.
Posted by: maddogg at December 08, 2010 08:17 AM (OlN4e)
4) Does it really matter?
I don't much care if the person trying to kill me is "home grown" or not. If he's here legally (however stupid the involved system may be) then he has to be treated as the civil courts allow.
If you're attacking the idea that we're doing something to "deserve" terrorist attacks, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
I'm pretty sure most people have figured out that, even if the terrorist started life as John Tanner from Nantucket, he's now calling himself Abuj Bin Muhammed and that the problem is Islamists who want to blow us up- whatever their origins.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:17 AM (8y9MW)
Antonio Martinez, a Muslim convert who called himself Muhammed Hussain, was arrested and will appear in federal court on Wednesday, Fox News confirms.
Ah so he was a Mexican immigrant converted by an immigrant from Pock-eeston.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:18 AM (e4sSD)
So I take it that last week's visit to A-Stan was Obama's Christmas visit to the troops and soldiers?
I guess Obama will be too busy entertaining people like Oprah and Bill Ayers over the holidays.
Posted by: Senator Soothsayer (R-AoS) at December 08, 2010 08:19 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Ncj the non-terrorist cabbie at December 08, 2010 08:19 AM (rpNY7)
Posted by: Truman North at December 08, 2010 08:19 AM (HLGCA)
Posted by: John Galt at December 08, 2010 08:19 AM (F/4zf)
What would it take to 'entrap' you into wanting to blow up a military recruiting center?
Yeah, we'd all call the FBI immediately after hearing about the plan. But I guess leftists are more sympathetic and can understand the mindset.
Posted by: Beagle at December 08, 2010 08:20 AM (sOtz/)
Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at December 08, 2010 08:20 AM (RkRxq)
Posted by: joncelli© at December 08, 2010 08:22 AM (RD7QR)
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 08, 2010 08:23 AM (8nf3A)
Posted by: Fritz at December 08, 2010 08:23 AM (GwPRU)
Posted by: WalrusRex at December 08, 2010 08:24 AM (xxgag)
After months of study and research I could not deny the truth anymore I had put it off too long, but was still living the life I was before and knew that if I became Muslim I had to give all that up. One day while reading the Qur'an, I began to cry and fell to my knees and thanked Allah for guiding me to the truth. I found out that there was a Mosque by my house so I went one Friday to see how Muslims prayed and conducted their service. I saw that people from all races and colors attended the Mosque. I saw that they took off their shoes when entering and sat on the carpeted floor. A man got up and began to call the Adthan (call for prayer) when I heard it my eyes filled up with tears it sounded so beautiful, it was all so strange at first but seemed so right at the same time. Islam is not just a Religion but a way of life.
Viva Palestine!!!
Viva Iraq!!!
Viva Afghanistan!!!
Viva Iran!!!
Long live all nations fighting oppression!
We are one nation, we must unite.
---
created a plot it then persuaded/manipulated/entrapped him to join,
That's how it really works, Glenn, you idiot (but I repeat myself).
Posted by: LC LaWedgie at December 08, 2010 08:25 AM (dEnha)
No. When I said 'real terrorists' I meant real AQ recruiters vs. FBI agents posing as 'real terrorists'.
Posted by: DrewM. at December 08, 2010 08:26 AM (HicGG)
Posted by: cali grump at December 08, 2010 08:27 AM (hL0k8)
Posted by: Truman North at December 08, 2010 08:28 AM (HLGCA)
Sure they are. From a range of roughly 100 yards or so, if I were guessing.
Farther (usually much farther) in the case of Drones and Artillery.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:28 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 08, 2010 08:30 AM (z+v3K)
Posted by: Cicero at December 08, 2010 08:31 AM (QKKT0)
I've asked it before: how does a nation founded on Religious tolerance and freedom fight a war in which the primary opponent is a Religion? Without making a mockery of its own values.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:31 AM (8y9MW)
Memo to Glenn Greenwald: maybe the next member of The Religion That Shall Not Be Named will decide to target not a military installation but a gay bar, bathhouse, or other Democrat stronghold.
Something for you to think about, Tinkerbell.
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 08, 2010 08:33 AM (z+v3K)
Islam is not a religion, it is a political movement that has a "god"
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:36 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:36 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: evensickerofObama at December 08, 2010 08:37 AM (sFUT5)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at December 08, 2010 08:38 AM (UOM48)
Christianity is supposed to fit that definition, too. Try again.
Just because its Evil doesn't make it not a religion.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:39 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: blaster at December 08, 2010 08:39 AM (MrMxG)
Posted by: Hedgehog at December 08, 2010 08:39 AM (Rn2kl)
I'm with Greenwald on this one.
A person has the right to believe what he thinks is right. People also have the right to associate with whomever they choose. And if he's a Muslim, that's his right, too. And he has every right to think about doing anything he wants.
Do people in this country no longer have the right to their own thoughts? And what's with those signs that say "Don't even think about parking here"? I'll think about parking anyplace I want. That's my right! People have no right putting signs up like that.
Anyway, I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours.
Posted by: WaterCow at December 08, 2010 08:40 AM (sWynj)
Islam is not a religion, it is a political movement that has a "god"
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 12:36 PM (e4sSD)
66 Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 12:36 PM (e4sSD)Christianity is supposed to fit that definition, too. Try again. Just because its Evil doesn't make it not a religion. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 12:39 PM (8y9MW) Uhhhh. Christianity is SPECIFICALLY NOT a political movement according to CHRIST. So, no, try again.
Posted by: dagny at December 08, 2010 08:42 AM (Je6fj)
But it doesn't say "Except if we don't like the Religion." It doesn't even say "Except if members of the Religion would like to see us all converted- by the sword if necessary."
I could get behind the deporting of anyone who actively preach violence, but you'd have to prove it, which means you'd have to have some way of constantly monitoring muslim religious leaders here in the States. Which is certainly not impossible, but you start skirting real close to that 4th amendment.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:42 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: cali grump at December 08, 2010 08:42 AM (hL0k8)
I reject that "moral equivalency" argument.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:42 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:43 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 08:44 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 08:48 AM (02uN6)
Other religions that come into the country in the past that had practices that were considered not safe for the population or which encouraged killing and violence were banned or stepped on so hard they were broken up.
Why are we still bashing Mormons who want to practice polygamy? We are on the verge of allowing men to marry each other. Soon all these Muslims in this country with multiple wives will come out in the open as well.
I throw the bullshit flag on all this PC crap. When Bush called it the "religion of peace" I spit and yelled. That was probably another damn Karl Rove strategy.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:50 AM (e4sSD)
Heh, just make sure you park da bomb in Greenwald's neighborhood or your own -- far away from the good neighbors.
Posted by: LC LaWedgie at December 08, 2010 08:51 AM (dEnha)
Christians are, however, tasked with converting every man, woman, and child on Earth. Difference being that when we're rejected we're supposed to shake off the dust of our shoes, and Muslims are supposed to cry "Allahu Ackbar!" and cut your head off .
The point I'm trying to make is that saying "It's not a Religion!" is nonsensical. Of course it's a religion- just like atheism is a religion. It meets all the definitions of Religion.
So, without saying: "It's not a Religion," how do you combat it?
I think what we're doing now (which is, indeed, a very defensive strategy) is about as far as we can go. I'd love other ideas, though.
This is important for two reasons: 1) The way wars are really one is by taking away the other sides willingness to fight. If we can't address the Religious issue as such, we can't even begin that process with Muslim terrorists.
2) If I'm right, it means we need to be prepared to be at war with them for all time.
This is why, to me, it is so important to find those Muslims who really do abhor terrorism, and help them gain the intestinal fortitude to try to take over their own Religion.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 08:51 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 08, 2010 08:54 AM (1Jaio)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 08, 2010 08:55 AM (8vj3l)
Posted by: ErikW at December 08, 2010 08:56 AM (inlVa)
I'm thrilled someone is finally challenging the oppressive nature of our being told where we can think about parking.
Posted by: Guy Who Sometimes Secretly Thinks About Illegal Parking at December 08, 2010 08:57 AM (QKKT0)
The best way is the same thing the Spanish did in the 15th century; tell them to do do one of three things: convert, get out of the country, or die in a hideous manner.
But I still say it is not a religion. I reject your arguments.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:57 AM (e4sSD)
We have been waiting on that since 2001 and it just ain't happening.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 08:58 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 08, 2010 12:05 PM (8nf3A)
Your wife must have more shoes and the biggest sewing room in the nation with bets like that.
Posted by: Oldcat at December 08, 2010 08:58 AM (z1N6a)
And find Bigfoot.
Posted by: Cicero at December 08, 2010 09:00 AM (QKKT0)
Posted by: SurferDoc at December 08, 2010 09:00 AM (o3bYL)
It's not moral equivalency, it's definition. I'm not equating Christianity with Islam in any way- except stating that they're both religions.
The point is that you can't just claim they're not a religion by fiat and then proceed to "burn down all the Mosques" etc.
This isn't a comfortable question, and I don't expect there will be any comfortable answers. But we still need to grapple with it.
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 12:48 PM (02uN6)
Actually, much of that was taken straight from other religious practices of the day. It's highly unusual now, and it didn't change with the times like other religions (notably Christianity) did, but it wasn't at all unusual back in the day. The Jews themselves were supposed to wear coverings (especially the women) and they were supposed to pray 3 times a day. (Also facing east, interestingly enough. Well, towards Jerusalem).
Posted by: joeindc44 at December 08, 2010 12:44 PM (QxSug)
I know that. The issue is that to do so constantly starts treading close to it. To me its like the question of cops using Infra-red heat sensors to detect houses which may be meth labs: you have no "expectation of privacy" as far as someone looking at your house goes (the govt's position) but you do have an expectation of privacy as far as people in general not knowing what's going on in there.
The same is true of Churches, you have much less expectation of privacy, but you still expect the privacy of the organization itself to be respected.
And the law would probably side with you (I'd probably be okay with that) but it would be a question to be considered before just wantonly placing FBI agents in every mosque in the country.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 09:00 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: SurferDoc at December 08, 2010 09:04 AM (o3bYL)
And then you'll be killing them until the Second Coming. Which is not to say your answer isn't the correct one, but are we (well, not "we," 'cause I'm pretty sure everyone on this blog would be okay with that) really willing to do that?
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 12:58 PM (e4sSD)
Actually, there are a few. I've had the pleasure of talking to one or two. They're even more afraid of being blown up than we are. See, we're just infidels. They're heretics.
I don't know that there are enough, but there are a few. What I'm hoping is that we'll stand up enough to the behavior (as SurferDoc suggests) so that these few will become braver about saying what they really believe. Until that happens, we're in this fight indefinitely, as far as I can see.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 09:05 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: buzzion at December 08, 2010 09:05 AM (oVQFe)
Posted by: ingenus at December 08, 2010 09:05 AM (+sBB4)
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 09:07 AM (02uN6)
Posted by: SurferDoc at December 08, 2010 09:08 AM (o3bYL)
Except that we do. If we simply label them all as "Terrorists" and proceed accordingly, that's fine- as far as it goes. If we ever want to be able to stop killing them, however, we have to find a way to win the motivational side of this war, too, and that means grappling with the Religious aspects of it.
Ask the Romans about "Christian Terrorists" or even "Jewish Terrorists" and they'll tell you what I mean. Only they can't 'cause they're all dead. And even before that, they were all converted to Christianity (well, the Ruling class, anyway).
That's really my fear: if we don't win this fight in the motivation side (find some way to take away their will to fight) they will, eventually, win. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but eventually.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 09:08 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: ingenus at December 08, 2010 01:05 PM (+sBB4)
I actually read somewhere how compared to other religions Islam is about the easiest one to convert to. As opposed to say Catholicism which is something like a year long process. But just as it is the easiest one to convert to, its the hardest one to leave. You know with basically the only way out being your death.
Posted by: buzzion at December 08, 2010 09:10 AM (oVQFe)
True, re: Christianity. But Christianity wasn't the only game in town back then. The Jews still had their traditional ablutions- including ritual bathing, praying 3 times a day, etc.- the omission of which meant you weren't worshiping properly (not so much with the jailing/torture/execution, though).
There were also the pagan religions (from the Greco-Roman cults to various poly-theistic religions in the Middle East) that also had very similar customs.
Their requirements seem overly harsh now, but they didn't so much back in the 600's.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 09:12 AM (8y9MW)
Must be a trend there.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 09:13 AM (e4sSD)
But just as it is the easiest one to convert to, its the hardest one to leave.
Posted by: buzzion at December 08, 2010 01:10 PM (oVQFe)
Heh, the very defintion of a cult.
Posted by: ErikW at December 08, 2010 09:13 AM (inlVa)
Posted by: cali grump at December 08, 2010 09:15 AM (hL0k8)
If somebody says “I testify that there is no true god (deity) but God (Allah), and that Muhammad is a Messenger (Prophet) of God.” and believe it, they are considered a Muslim.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 08, 2010 09:15 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 01:08 PM (8y9MW)
For the Jewish Terrorist problem the Romans used the motivational strategy of penning them up in Masada, building a huge ramp to take it, and watched them kill themselves. Then they took a big mess of artisans back to Rome and made them build the Colliseum.
Then for Bar Kochva, they took the Jews that were left in Palestine and scattered them across the empire.
Posted by: Oldcat at December 08, 2010 09:15 AM (z1N6a)
Posted by: ingenus at December 08, 2010 09:17 AM (+sBB4)
That is why every element of the Qur'an employs some kind of call to jihad against the infadels, and it is not a "peaceful jihad".
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 09:17 AM (e4sSD)
67 Guy goes by Muhammed Hussain. That is so weird.
Muhammed Hussain? Shit! I had a 33% Mohammed factor to win. I knew I shoulda gone with 50%!
Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 08, 2010 09:18 AM (z+v3K)
Posted by: Buck O. Phive at December 08, 2010 09:19 AM (HwIdb)
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 09:20 AM (02uN6)
And as with any cult, Islam has components that dictate and micromanage the routines of a Muslim's daily life. It is amazing how much daily life minutia the Koran addresses.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 08, 2010 09:21 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 09:25 AM (02uN6)
Which is why Islam is so predisposed to violence amongst its proponents, much more than other religions. Whenever Islam is faced with a set-back, the pious believe that the obstacle is due to the Islamic nation at large not being faithful enough to Allah. Thus, all Muslims must embrace traditional Islamic principles all the more.
This serves to stop most chances for any sort of Islamic reformation almost from the very beginning.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 08, 2010 09:27 AM (9hSKh)
Islam was created by Mohammed before he was a general. It just didn't take off until he could convert people by the sword (funny, that).
I'm not claiming that Islam is really the word of God from on high. I'm saying that (very much in the same way- albeit with different goals and methods) it is every bit the religion that Scientology is. Denying that doesn't make it not so.
I agree with you completely about the ends of the "Religion of Peace." I agree completely that it's almost certainly responsible for far more Evil than any single other movement (Religious, Social, or Political) in human history. But if you don't accept that it's a religion, it's going to be very, very hard to combat it on its strongest turf.
Just like ignoring that it's a religion and just fighting against the behaviors inherent in it will work for a while, but eventually they'll win the war of motivation.
Posted by: Nighthawk at December 08, 2010 01:20 PM (02uN6)
Well, yes, they were. But it would be a really neat trick for Islam to be set up to mock 21st (or even 20th, 19th, or 18th) century Christianity when it was established many centuries before that.
It certainly wasn't "mocking" contemporary religious practices of the time- including the whole "execute the nonbeliever" thing. They were just more successful at it than the others.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 09:28 AM (8y9MW)
working (not entrapping) for the FBI
Posted by: Dave at December 08, 2010 01:12 PM (2LwW2)
Shoes off on my buzzing prayer rug,
Head down with my asshole high.
Posted by: The Islamohollys at December 08, 2010 09:35 AM (dEnha)
Read up on Jewish Law. Just the stuff in Leviticus is pretty specific, once you get to the Traditions, Muslims would say "Dude, don't I get to make any choices?" I don't know if it's true or not, but I always heard that Hebrew Tradition even mandated the order in which you cut your finger nails.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 08, 2010 01:27 PM (9hSKh)
And you've hit upon the crux of the matter. I don't think we can confront Islam and win without admitting that the problem is Islam: that is, that the violence and intolerance are inherent within its tenets. But our very founding documents hinder that task. We need to find some way to win that doesn't make a mockery of our own Religious tolerance and freedom- which requiring every Muslim to convert FROM Islam (to whatever) would certainly do.
Maybe Vic, et al, are correct and what we need to do is give religions the Jeff Foxworthy treatment: "If your Religion calls for the killing of non believers... it may not be a religion." "If your Religion claims all civil governments must subject themselves to the religious governance... it may not be a religion"
I don't like that answer, and I think that Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, et. al. would be appalled by it. Which is not to say they might not do it- just that they wouldn't like it either.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 09:36 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Jim Treacher at December 08, 2010 09:40 AM (WuMZ3)
But our very founding documents hinder that task. We need to find some way to win that doesn't make a mockery of our own Religious tolerance and freedom- which requiring every Muslim to convert FROM Islam (to whatever) would certainly do.
Bullshit. Our Religious tolerance and freedom does not extend to those who are intolerant of it. If Islam was a religion that allowed for tolerance of other religions and freedoms you would have a point.
And Jefferson would probably tell you to go pound sand. I think he was pretty on board with the religious tolerance thing but he also read the Koran and knew what needed to be done about the Barbary's
Posted by: buzzion at December 08, 2010 09:42 AM (oVQFe)
I don't think it's as hard as you say. Islam is the only major religion that's explicitly also a political system, so it sticks out in a rather obvious way.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 08, 2010 09:45 AM (p05LM)
Of course our tolerance and freedom "extend to those who are intolerant of it." We don't claim the David Frum (or Brooks, or whoever) doesn't have the right to say that we don't have the right to say things. Our tolerance of Free Speech even extends to those who use that right to impugn Free Speech.
Neither do we deny the right to bear arms to those who would, if given the chance and power, deny us that same right.
And the Barbary Pirates weren't US Citizens. Unfortunately, some terrorists are.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 08, 2010 01:45 PM (p05LM)
So what if it "sticks out?" Scientology is the only religion admittedly created by it author in response to a bet. So it "sticks out," too. It's still recognized as a religion.
If you want to say that religion can't have a political component, be sure you know what can of worms you're opening: or do you believe for a minute that the Left wouldn't just love to point to all the Christians who believe that we should have a "Christian Society" (by which they mean a Government run under Christian Ideals, not just a Government full of Christians) so that they could get Christianity denied it's religion status?
Of course it's easy to identify how its different: if you're passingly familiar with them, its easy to identify how any religion is different from all the others.
Again, it may be what we have to do to actually win instead of just fighting an indefinite holding action, but telling millions of people their religion won't be tolerated here should be something that would weigh heavily on your heart. If it doesn't, I suggest you look to make sure you're not losing sight of the fact they're human, too.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 10:05 AM (8y9MW)
Suggestion: check out the "religious" origins of Islam as outlined by eschatologist Chuck Missler. According to him, Islam is totally based on the old Baal idol worship cult--the Old Testament perennial nemesis, if you recall. Missler points to various items: the moon god, throwing stones at the Kaaba, etc. Ironic for a "religion" which eschews idol worship so adamantly, but logic isn't integral to this belief system.
Basically, Muhammad cooked up a stew of practices from the region, set himself up as its king/savior and got POd at any who refused to buy it--especially the Jews.
Posted by: baldilocks at December 08, 2010 10:07 AM (t2hll)
--AllenG
Problem is, those Christians are dead wrong. In John 18:36 Christ explicitly said that His kingdom was not of this world and that, if it were, his boys woulds have fought to keep him from being executed. And Peter did actually cut off the ear of the high priest. JC rolled His eyes and healed the guy's ear.
A Moron-paraphrase as you may have guess.
Posted by: baldilocks at December 08, 2010 10:15 AM (t2hll)
Already played out? OK, well plan B then.
Posted by: Flounder at December 08, 2010 10:17 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: texette at December 08, 2010 10:19 AM (MakNf)
Posted by: texette at December 08, 2010 02:19 PM (MakNf)
Which actual ties it to Baal-Molech worship.
Posted by: baldilocks at December 08, 2010 10:25 AM (t2hll)
Posted by: texette at December 08, 2010 10:33 AM (MakNf)
This Nation was not founded only on religous freedom, freedom of political and economic thought are pretty central as well. Yet when other political and/or economic systems have threatened the country, we have had no difficulty fighting against them, while maintaining fundamental freedoms. As a simple example, we engaged in total war against the Nazi regime in Germany, but still protect the right of people in this country to hold and espouse nazi beliefs.
I agree that Islam is just as much a religion as Christianity, I don't see where that somehow makes it impossible to fight without undermining our constitution. As has been said many times before, the constitution is not a suicide pact.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at December 08, 2010 10:36 AM (FLRN3)
Um, no they don't, actually. Google Hutaree raid.
FBI got some guys talking smack whilst drinking heavily, swooped in, arrested a bunch, terrorized families, swiped all their computers and guns, and then......
...dropped all charges.
Posted by: TXMarko at December 08, 2010 10:42 AM (3ZIH/)
Oh no, we do have nazi beliefs here. If we eliminated fascism we would eliminate half of both Parties. If we eliminated Communism we would eliminate the other half of the Democrat Party.
Look it is real simple. If you subscribe to a belief system that calls for a rigid enforcement of how you live, work, and simply exist, and that belief system says that it shall be enshrined in law such that everyone in the country is forced to adhere to that law on pain of imprisonment, physical punishment, or death then that is a political system.
Simply adding the term god in there and calling for you to bow down to the system 5 times a day doesn't make it a religion.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 10:47 AM (e4sSD)
Doesn't matter if they're wrong. Only that they exist.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at December 08, 2010 02:36 PM (FLRN3)
Yeah, but we threw Nazi sympathizers in concentration camps until we could end the war itself. And they were never trying to kill civilians, per se, but to attack actual targets of value to the war effort (those who were doing the sabotage thing in the first place- not all of them were).
Are you willing to do that to all Muslims in America?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 10:54 AM (8y9MW)
Really, really good doesn't mean perfect.
And, while I don't have any numbers to support this, I suspect the FBI conducts far more successful stings in a year than they've had botched ones in their history.
Which doesn't preclude some really royal screw-ups.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 08, 2010 10:59 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: baldilocks at December 08, 2010 11:00 AM (t2hll)
I actually need to correct myself. 8 Hutaree are scheduled to go to Trial on 28 February 2011, but most involved believe that it will extend beyond that.
Charges have been dropped for several of the members as the prosecutions case against them unravels. The majority of the Governments case rests on recordings made at gatherings (including a wedding) where alcohol was involved.
Kinda makes you wonder about all the Hobo talk on the ONT, doesn't it?
Posted by: TXMarko at December 08, 2010 11:09 AM (3ZIH/)
Did Charles Lindburg spend the duration of WW II in a concentration camp?
I must have missed that.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at December 08, 2010 11:11 AM (FLRN3)
#137, get a hold of Caliphate by Tom Kratman, and check out the "Refinition of Religion Act" that was passed after we lost three cities to nuclear terrorism.
Islam was legally redefined as "an alien and hostile political philosophy masquerading as a religion, and is specifically exempted from the protections of the First Amendment."
Of course this was a couple years before we started slinging nukes into their territory ourselves, so the gloves were really off at that point.
Posted by: SGT Dan at December 08, 2010 11:18 AM (GgXZc)
There have never been any "concentration camps" in the U.S. There were some fairly bad POW camps in the North and South during the war of 1861 but there have never been concentration camps.
If you are referring to the "internment camps" you need to read Michelle Malkin's book on that subject. There is too much information to put in a comment box, or even an entire post for that matter.
But in essence, there is nothing wrong with what went down in WWII.
Posted by: Vic at December 08, 2010 11:20 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: evensickerofObama at December 08, 2010 01:29 PM (sFUT5)
Posted by: evensickerofObama at December 08, 2010 01:32 PM (sFUT5)
Has anyone else noticed that Gleen Grenwald looks a lot like Bart Simpson? I don't mean the cartoon Gleen Groanwald, I mean the real one. The guys got the biggest eraser-head I've ever seen.
The same way I think Rachel Madcow and Cris Collinsworthless are the same person, I think Glom Greenwad is the same person..
The cartoon Gleem Glutwald has a long face and a short forehead (over compensation). But the real Gloom Gutwalled has a huge cranium!
Too bad there's not a proportional equivalence between his huge skull and the tiny amount of grey matter that occupies it.
Posted by: medulla oblongata at December 08, 2010 02:19 PM (QNMSi)
Posted by: Nemo from Erewhon at December 08, 2010 02:49 PM (zbxMv)
But it may also just as easily be the case that the FBI -- as they've done many times in the past -- found some very young, impressionable, disaffected, hapless, aimless, inept loner; created a plot it then persuaded/manipulated/entrapped him to join, essentially turning him into a Terrorist; and then patted itself on the back once it arrested him for having thwarted a "Terrorist plot" which, from start to finish, was entirely the FBI's own concoction.
Interesting case, and one worth considering. But it falls apart with one small thing: all the unsuspecting rube has to say is "no".
As in "no I will not commit a crime", "no, I will not murder people", "no, I will not plant and detonate your bomb."
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at December 08, 2010 03:08 PM (1hM1d)
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terrorism in the purest form?
Posted by: Senator Soothsayer (R-AoS) at December 08, 2010 08:03 AM (uFokq)