1 yes!

2 Hurray!

I feel awful for the guys hurt by the old ROEs...

3 Tahlleybahn hardest hit.

4 You mean more Tallybananas will be able to met Allah personally?  Awesome!

5
Damn, that's good news.

6 Um, WOW.

That's a hell of of an indictment of McChrystal. I mean, Petraeus hasn't even been confirmed let alone stepped foot in country.

Damn.

7 Yeah swell, fine, great. But unless the "deadline" for withdrawal is withdrawn, none of that will matter all that much. It will save American Military lives however. And the sad fact is once a withdrawal "deadline" is announced, it can't really be unannounced, especially while that commie bastard is in the White House. Ya know our enemies watch CNN and are not stupid like that dolt in the Oval Office.

8 #4 You mean more Tallybananas will be able to met Allah personally?  Awesome!

Its the least we can do.

9 Fox says story up next on fnc.

10

WoW...so how does this jibe with McChrystals misgivings w/the preznit? Or should I believe the emerging meme that McChrystal prefers the current ROE??

 

11
unless the "deadline" for withdrawal is withdrawn

I think that 'deadline' is about as truthful as the deadline for shutting down Guantanamo.

12 I was just thinking that Petraeus could probably do almost anything he wants now.  The last thing Obama wants is to have to fire Petraeus for attempting to win the war. 

13

Saw a great bumper sticker this morning:

US MARINES, the travel agents to Allah.

 

 

14 Things must be worse than reported in Afganistan.

For nicey-nice policy to be coming to an end.

Or.. Obama wants his poll numbers to go up. I doubt its for the good of America.

15 Oh crap!

16
Obama wants his poll numbers to go up. I doubt its for the good of America.

Glad I'm not the only cynic here.

17
I wonder if Petraeus will still be regarded as a hero and military genius after Obama gives Biden the boot and puts the general on the ticket with him for 2012.

We know nothing about this man's politics. Why do so many assume he's a Republican?

Biden will not be on the ticket for 2012, that much is obvious. So why not Petraeus, a man who can guarantee Obama a second term and a man who will easily secure another win for the Democrats in 2016?

After all, we're headed into a socialist dictatorship, who better than a military leader to take over the reigns?

18 Actually shooting people and blowing things up will be a huge change in tactics now, wouldn't it!  Hard to win a war when all you do is say hello to people, give candy to children and get shot at without being allowed to fire back.

19 unless the "deadline" for withdrawal is withdrawn I think that 'deadline' is about as truthful as the deadline for shutting down Guantanamo. Posted by: Lock And Load at June 25, 2010 11:57 AM (fx8sm) Maybe but that does not matter. The enemy KNOWS we are outa there sooner than later. We do not have the will to win. And our "Friends" and those we are trying to influence away from the Taliban know that. And they know if they stick their necks out for us, it's gonna get cut off-Literally.

20 THANK YOU, JESUS! I was worried when Tiny Dancer and Plugs were out Sunday emphasizing the timetable will stick.

21 Man, now all Obama has to to do is name Gen. Mattis to "command*" CentCom and we just might survive this after all.


*The next head of CentCom isn't really 'commanding-commanding' it as Whoppi might say. Doesn't matter what's on the org chart, Petraeus is running the show.

22 "Or should I believe the emerging meme that McChrystal prefers the current ROE??" Exactly.

23 Yeah, they'll change those insane ROE just about the time he starts withdrawing.

24 Speaking of reviews, the Surface Navy just did one.  Yes, the results show the surface force is every bit as fucked up as you'd imagine.

I just love that we are still routinely running ships around on a regular basis.

25 So ... Petraeus wasn't aware of the problem with the insanely restrictive rules ... until McChrystal complained to Rolling Stoned?  Is this supposed to engender confidence in anyone?  People have been complaining obout the insane ROE for years, and the amazing added restrictions since the Indonesian Imbecile slimed into office.  This is no different from finally agreeing to "meet the ROE" only after it's been pointed out, publicly, just like with McChrystal himself for the Afghan troop surge, or with the CEO of BP in the first month and a half of the spill.

How much more will America take?

26 aground

27 Yeah, they'll change those insane ROE just about the time he starts withdrawing. Posted by: Vic at June 25, 2010 12:07 PM (6taRI) And unfortunately the Pentagon has made it abundantly clear that anyone who kills "civilians" is guilty until proven innocent. Great way to fight a war, looking over your shoulder all time to see if your about to be indicted.

28 There might be civil rights violations here.

29 I think that 'deadline' is about as truthful as the deadline for shutting down Guantanamo.

Posted by: Lock And Load at June 25, 2010 11:57 AM (fx8sm)

The Afghans who might be reluctant to cooperate with our troops (because once they leave in a few months, the Taliban will butcher collaborators), don't care whether our politicians say stuff for political expediency.

30

Could it be that the light has started to leak through just a little bit? It's about time that we got serious about killing bad guys. This "winning hearts and minds" crap is OK after you've won. You cannot win a war by being politically correct or fighting with one arm tied behind your back (birm).

If we were at all serious, we'd be pointing out to the worlds' effete that the enemy is using human shields and setting up shop in civlian areas in a blatant attempt to turn world opinion against us. A bit of PR is in order to show that the Taliban is a ruthless, terrorist organization that has no interest in peace. We should be instructing the embeds to highlight each and every instance of the enemy causing civilian casualties every day, all day, 24/7.

31 Funny, but I totally forget who was the next guy up the chain of command from our dearly departed commander in Afghanistan.

32 "At least we're Mirandizing terrorists in Afghanistan.  Civilization!"

-- libtard

'to secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity [and every other living organism in the known universe]'

33 Anyone who thinks Pres'ent Toonces is doing this for the good of the troops or this country is a naive fool.

His poll numbers are tanking, his staff must figure he can raise them a few points with this change.

34 "The last thing Obama wants is to have to fire Petraeus for attempting to win the war. "

Obama will blame Petraeus when the war is lost. He will have neutralized a political rival and vindicated his earlier skepticism on the surge. And our guys will have died for nothing.

35 Speaking of reviews, the Surface Navy just did one. Yes, the results show the surface force is every bit as fucked up as you'd imagine. I just love that we are still routinely running ships around on a regular basis. Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at June 25, 2010 12:08 PM (ZESU0) Yeah, but dental readiness is up!!!!!

36

Pretty gutsy move, imo.  Not very likely that Obama would push back too far on this.  Plus it gives Barry an out (sorta) since he can say that it was the general who did it on his own.  (But my bet is that Barry is none too happy being painted into a corner like this.)

And OT -

I'm curious why the mexican drug dealers would not just joint the government's suit against AZ instead of threatening the cops.

http://tinyurl.com/2bmn8ll

 

37 DP know exactly what the ROE's are, what the ups and downs are, who's complaining and why. As CENTCOM commander during their implementation, DP saying he will "review" them means change is coming or, at least, already considered likely with a formal process to be certain. As well, a "review" announcement does much to settle some dust of discontent during the command transition period.

38 After all, we're headed into a socialist dictatorship, who better than a military leader to take over the reigns?

Posted by: nostrafuckingdamus at June 25, 2010 12:02 PM (v77ig)

Because Obama's ego can't put an alpha male on his ticket. Even Hillary was too much for him. But now that she's played dishrag to him as well as Bubba, she might take Biden's place. "The Dream Ticket." A new ticket. CHANGE.

39 OT but related to another post: BREAKING: Weigel Resigns - mediabistro.com: FishbowlDC http://bit.ly/90yjWK

40 The last thing Obama wants is to have to fire Petraeus for attempting to win the war. 

Posted by: pity t. fool at June 25, 2010 11:58 AM (Sg8sX)

The Precedent really doesn't care one whit about this.  He'll do whatever he thinks will harm the US the most.  He'd fire Petraeus in a second if he thought it would help him destroy the US.  If that move makes him less popular, he's okay with that, since having the nation against the Executive branch is one of his main tactics to foment chaos in our society.  Just think of how much he cared about shoving health scare down our throats.  He has no problem doing that same thing when he has the power to do it.  Look at the threat to un-Constitutionally issue an Executive pardon of all illegals - which actually does step right on Congress' power to issue uniform laws of naturalization (unlike the Arizona law which has nothign to do with changing national status or deporting anyone out of the US).

41
I don't see how we ascribe this move to some kind of super-genius strategery on Wee Wee's part.  The whole "11 dimensional chess" thing has been pretty much disproven.  What we're seeing is flailing, not maneuvering.

42 Foxnews: BREAKING: Petraeus will change rules of engagement in Afghanistan, source tells Fox News http://fxn.ws/9um5lZ

43 I saw the Fox "report," complete with their usual "breaking news" blather.

The only conclusion one can draw from the "story" is that Petraeus may change the rules. Or may not. Expert One says "yes," Expert Two says "no."

Petraeus has shown signs that he is a real, patriotic soldier in the past. If that's true, he'll have to change the ROE in favor of putting American lives first and ditch Osama Obama's "don't hurt any of my Muslim buddies" policy.

Remains to be seen how effective a general office can be against the Traitor-in-Chief. I'm rooting for the general.

Meanwhile, Fox has gone back to the Blago story.... *yawns*

44 BREAKING: Weigel Resigns

Fucking outed. That does my heart good. On to new scalps.

45 Hopefully Reviewing=Burning stupid shit in front of troops. As they remove rubber bullets and go Full Metal Jacket!

46 Speaking of reviews, the Surface Navy just did one. Yes, the results show the surface force is every bit as fucked up as you'd imagine.

I just love that we are still routinely running ships around on a regular basis.
Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at June 25, 2010 12:08 PM (ZESU0)

But the diversity of the fleet is outstanding! That's what matters most, don't you know.

47 I just love that we are still routinely running ships around on a regular basis.

LOL, that was a cool link thanks. I especially liked the statement about permanent shore bound billets in the Navy and getting rid of them. One of the reasons I got out was the 5/2 sea/shore rotation my rating had. And even the 2 year shore duty sucked because you had a choice of being a recruiter (teh suck) or teaching in a shore based facility on 12 hour rotating shifts 7 days a week (teh major suck). 

Hell the sea duty was better if it wasn't for sleeping in a compartment full of smelly socks and fart sacks underneath a jet engine test stand that managed to fire up just at the moment you got off watch every damn time.

48 Things are going great in Afghanistan !! Should the ROE be slanted towards mission? or safety ?

49 But the diversity of the fleet is outstanding! That's what matters most, don't you know. Posted by: DrewM. at June 25, 2010 12:24 PM (X/Lqh) Oooh, that's gonna leave a mark

50 By the time the review comes back with recommendations, the Indonesian Imbecile will say that circumstances on the ground have changed and order another review.  That's what he did with the strategic review and troop surge recommendation.

The Precedent will put everything off until Israel takes out the Iranian nuke program, since he's planning on trying to destroy Israel (with Europe and the rest of 'the world') and then blaming Israel for everything that happens in Iraq and Afghanistan after that.

He's just looking to tread water for a while.  Stalling.

51 But the diversity of the fleet is outstanding! That's what matters most, don't you know. Posted by: DrewM. at June 25, 2010 12:24 PM (X/Lqh) And not only that, but the new PT uniform, ya know the 4th version, is really gonna help????????

52 Gentlemen, remove the safety.

53 Posted by: Vic at June 25, 2010 12:25 PM (6taRI) Plus, they say you get laid lots more at sea, no matter your choice of partner.

54

But the diversity of the fleet is outstanding!

Yeah, I'd let a bunch of horn dogged kids drive my boat to impress a bunch of chicks trying to get knocked up, so they could go home.

"Watch this semen Jane!"

55 #53  Plus, they say you get laid lots more at sea...

In the Navy!

Perhaps the Navy should have a recruitment video with those lines...

56 "A military source close to Gen. David Petraeus says one of the first things the general will do when he takes over in Afghanistan is to modify the controversial rules of engagement to make it easier for U.S. troops to engage in combat with the enemy. " Fox News Channel Politics page. Key word is 'modify'.

57 Change of engagement? In the Navy that must means both partners get to wear cute little rings, no?

58 And like that, moral in Afghanistan theater skyrocketed. 

59 I'm changing the ROE. I don't want anymore civilians killed. From now on, US forces will only carry paintball guns.

60 Hell the sea duty was better if it wasn't for sleeping in a compartment full of smelly socks and fart sacks underneath a jet engine test stand that managed to fire up just at the moment you got off watch every damn time.

Posted by: Vic at June 25, 2010 12:25 PM (6taRI)

Or attempting to fall asleep in your top rack right under the number 2 wire on the O2 level while they do touch and goes on the flight deck about 4 feet over your head.  Nice times there!

61 New Navy recruitment campaign!1!!!!! Even ugly chicks get dick.

62 Maybe Barretta Shotgun wielding  "sheriff slow joe" wants to shoot some shiite with the boys!

63 Plus, they say you get laid lots more at sea, no matter your choice of partner.

Well when I was in there was no women on board ships. They had tried an experiment on one of the hospital ships and every damn one of the women got pregnant before the first cruise was up for them. So they were in a period of rethinking.

That was one of my major gripes. Since they wouldn't put women on the ships and they persisted in PC diversity in ALL trades, the women got permanent shore duty and it left fewer billets available for the rest of us.

And BION, the entire 5 years I was on the last ship I never saw a single homosexual act. This was even at a time when that was good for a fast ticket out.

But you did get f***ked a lot, just not the "good kind".
 

64 Yea, Petraeus's reward for a job well done in Iraq is a demotion to save Obama's ass.  He is now the Battlefield CC in Afghanistan and stepped down as CENTCOM/CC. A new CENTCOM/CC will be appointed. Anything associated with Obama is bad news. Never a good deal just a dick up the ass......................

65 That's why they call it active duty!11111!!111

66 Navy Slogan after don't ask don't tell is ended:
"Join the Submarine fleet, where you can go down on a tube full of seamen"

67 Obama's new strategy to defeat the Taliban. ENROLL THEM IN OBAMACARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

68 We're gonna need more virgins.

69 Or attempting to fall asleep in your top rack right under the number 2 wire on the O2 level while they do touch and goes on the flight deck about 4 feet over your head.  Nice times there!

LOL, when I first reported aboard they put a few of us there. Nothing like that landing and the dragging of the cable back to make sure you got no sleep. Hell, I though we were making out when they kicked us out of that birthing area and gave it to a group of "middies" who were making their first get-acquainted cruise.

The jet engine test stand was worse though.

70 Never a good deal just a dick up the ass...................... Posted by: John Glockenstien

Um, I bet that Petraeus made his transfer conditional upon new ROE. So no, it's not the total mess that you describe. If this saves troops and speeds their return you may want to reconsider your whore-mouth Cassandra act.

71 The jet engine test stand was worse though.

Posted by: Vic at June 25, 2010 12:42 PM (6taRI)

I had my office on the O1 level all the way aft right by the fantail.  The AIMD jet shop was our next door neighbor.  High power test runs were brutal.

72 CDR Salamander Having a hard time with this iPad keyboard, but can you tie in your blog post on the state ofnthe surface fleet with the scathing IG review of the state of the Navy A schools that came out about 16 months ago?

73

This isn't some "savior" moment -- Petraeus was McCrystal's boss and there was no change in the ROE, and the ROE is much the same as it's always been, and no, generals don't get to make the ROE -- they can suggest, but ultimately if the big boss wants things done a certain way, then they have to do them as ordered by the joint chiefs.  Now, maybe the change up will allow the military to plead the case for a change in ROE -- in which case be thankful that somebody forced the issue.

@ 65 was right; unless that deadline gets taken out of the equation there will be more hell to pay.

Chambered rounds or no -- doesn't make much difference against an IED.  People are still going to get killed over there -- a change in leadership and allowing Yon back in isn't going to magically make things better.

74 I think brining public scrutiny and changing the way we operate was the intent of McChrystal's interview all along.He fell on his sword for his troops.

75 Wow, first McChrystal speaks truth to power, then he resigns, then his ROE's get reviewed and changed.  I'd say its been a banner week for the war effort in A'stan.

76 76  That's what I think too.

77 I'd be curious to know if the issue is the ROE or the interpretation of those rules at the troop unit level. In my experience simple declarative sentences at the one over the world level get interpreted and massaged at every level of the chain of command. Sort of like the game of telephone. My suspicion is that intermediate levels of command are defaulting to "better to be safe than sorry" when employing supporting fires instead of aggressively supporting troops in contact.

78

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read a single mujahid in Afghanistan could establish multiple entrenched firing positions, each with weapons, yet walk back and forth between them - out in the open no less - as needed to fire on US forces so long as the brother is unarmed.

Allah be praised, no review is needed.  Though I worry about the martyrdom quota. 

79 My suspicion is that intermediate levels of command are defaulting to "better to be safe than sorry" when employing supporting fires instead of aggressively supporting troops in contact.

My experience has always been the opposite. Better "safe than sorry" meant safe for some mid level's ass and assuring that it was covered.

The "God rank" would issue some kind of nebulous policy statement and at each level on the way down it would be made more strict until it got all the way to the troop level who had to implement it.

The troops knew the final order couldn't be implemented so they did their "best" with what they had knowing that if any mistake was ever made they would get reamed.

That kind of shit just works wonders for morale.

80

Army Rangers in Afghanistan

"You mean we get to shoot back?  Finally!"

 

81

Blog ate my post.  Here goes again, with less gusto.

I saw a recent documentary which showed some chopper and drone pilots doing target acquisition, going up the chain of command, and eventually getting the fire or not orders.

And it is a multi-layered and cumbersome process involving lawyers, officers, requests for more info, and back and forth.  But they have a system to get it done as quickly as possible.

I can see how troops needing immediate support might find it absurd, but I did see a case where some jihadis 'clearly' burying an IED in the road turned out to be teens playing on the road.  What someone is doing isn't always clear even at 100x mag or whatever. 

More disturbing is what seems to be happening at the ground level where some troops can't return fire when fired upon without noting the exact location.  So no suppressive fire means the bad guys get to freely take pot shots at you.  Which occasionally kills or maims a guy.  

82

79  For what it is worth, here's my take on it:  the ROE hasn't really changed all that much, and yes, there is some fluidity in interpretation.  However, what has changed is how much non-military attention is getting paid to said ROE and how any transgressions from said ROE are getting evaluated.  Also, just how adamant the non-military bosses are that the military follow the ROE and the mindset that produces said ROE -- that's a consideration too.

And well, that certainly is a bit different now from say, a few years ago -- makes a big difference if you ask me.

Throw on top of that the pronouncement of a deadline for withdrawal, irregardless of conditions on the ground and a seeming reluctance to even meet and discuss with the military leadership, and foot dragging half assedness to the mil leadership's requests vis a vis what they say they will need to successfully prosecute the war...I think you get the picture.

It trickles down, all the way from the top brass to the lowliest private -- and that is the real morale killer (plus crazy, insane politicians and civilians who seem to only really "like" and support the military when they think the military are their lapdogs to do parlor tricks and yank around on as they see fit, and their damn reporters who like to stick their noses into everything and run back to said politicians and civilians...that kinda doesn't help the old feelings of morale either).

83

"I think brining public scrutiny and changing the way we operate was the intent of McChrystal's interview all along.He fell on his sword for his troops."

I agree as well.

84 ROE--"restricted fire zones" have been getting our guys killed since Viet Nam.

85 It hasn't been a week and Petraeus wants the stupid ROE's changed already?
This issue must have been a bur under his saddle for quite a while.
The ROE's came down from The One so this will be his first test.  I don't think that the Commander-in-Chief can fire two generals, but Petraeus will have to be willing to give up his career to win.
I'm betting that Petraeus has what it takes to pull this off.
And if he does, The One might just get a second term.

86 Who is really setting the ROE? If it's the field generals, then our soldiers have a shot at winning. If it's Team Obama via field generals, then the soldiers, and America, are screwed.

This seems to me to be unknown or at least publicly undisclosed. Soldiers were being sent out with orders to, essentially, not shoot. Ever. (At least that's my domestic appreciation of the action in Afghanistan proper, away from the border drones.) That's a holding pattern at best until the withdrawal from theater begins. Trumped up, ridiculous medals were even being awarded for not firing weapons. This seems to be exactly the way Obama and his progressive ideologues would want it - try not to create too much trouble, keep the grunts from making decisions, and hope for the best... then leave with a "win" since Al Qaeda will not have been provoked into a major skirmish since simple time will yield back the country.

Was McChrystal OK with that? Was that all his ROE, or was he pressured via the Obama suits into a COIN strategy so passive as to be foolish? And did McChrystal allow Rolling Stone access such that others would speak their minds and essentially scold Team Obama via a more indirect yet dicing manner? I mean, which would cause more effect with Obama... a boisterous, private "discussion" with him, or a publicly perusable attack in the media that showed The One as incompetent and weak? Maybe that's too Machiavellian in design, but it's not implausible.

If you're McChrystal, maybe one option is to fall on the sword for your men in order to change what were intractable, politically calculating ROE forced down his and his mens' throats. If that's the case, then will the new ROE change enough under Petraeus to give the soldiers more autonomy in the field and more ability for self-defense while going offensive? I think Petraeus, and only Petraeus, has that kind of pull right now; but will Obama allow it? Will Obama be willing to lose Afghanistan?

87
"If you're McChrystal, maybe one option is to fall on the sword for your men in order to change what were intractable, politically calculating ROE forced down his and his mens' throats."

I thought about that but from what I've read about him, I doubt it.
Petraeus was McChrystal's boss.  If he had a problem with the ROE's (and he certainly appears to) he could have done something about it.
Petraeus' big problem are the people in the State Department.  If Petraeus starts a showdown with State, The One will have to make a choice and I think that he's painted himself into a corner on this one.
He will have to side with Petraeus.

Remember, Petraeus didn't have to accept this.

What I am worried about is that The One made promises to Petraeus that he has no intention of keeping.

88 Since Petraeus was originally McChrystal's boss, why didn't he order a review a long time ago?

89

Bring the boys back.   If libtards think this is "nam", re-instate the draft.  One with no college student exemption. 

I am tired of soldiers getting killed and maimed and getting stabed in the back by the left.  Since 9/11 was Bush's fault, it will not happen again, right? 

90

82  Army Rangers in Afghanistan

 

Are they going to be armed like IDF that invaded that friendly human rights ship in the med?  Wth paintball guns?

91 ÑÓÇÆá ÚÊÇÈ

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