1 The UNSC? The one with China in it? Whatevs....

2 I hope god is watching over SoK, 'cause lord knows Precedent Asswipe isn't going to lift a finger. 

3 the UNSC? the one with China in it? And the outcome of this is expected to be what?

4 Somebody needs to pop ol' pumkinhead.

5 The UNSC? The one with China in it?

There's no lovefest between the PRC and DPRK these days.

6 so I don't think it's breaking news.

The part about the FM saying the evidence was solid enough to take to UNSC was new.  Now that part of the story has vanished.  It was probably posted for about 2 minutes.

7 Like, we can expect the UN to do anything?  This is a waste of ink...er pixels...something.

8 8 Like, we can expect the UN to do anything?  This is a waste of ink...er pixels...something.

A strongly-worded letter?

9 Surprise, surprise, surprise!

10 The comments on that yahoo page are laughable. Like this one-


""time for Pres. Obama to really be at his desk, this doesnt look good. I am glad he is in office, I have more faith in his ability to cut through the BS more so than Bush.""


yeah right, the only thing obama is good at with a world leader is to suck the fart out of their ass.

11 Too bad they can't fucking NUKE them!

12 I am at my desk.

With a mirror and a rolled-up ten-dollar bill.

13 The 1950 war is only suspended by a ceasefire.  Maybe someone wants to change that.

I would blame Spectre, if I could figure out how this helps them corner the world diamond market.

14 An overdue asswhuppin' this way comes.

15 A strongly-worded letter?

Now, let's not do anything rash.

16 I sure hope this doesn't spoil Bambi's menudo.

17

On MASH I saw them "bugging out". How do we get that plan implemented?

18 9 8 Like, we can expect the UN to do anything?  This is a waste of ink...er pixels...something.

A strongly-worded letter?

Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) at May 19, 2010 09:52 PM (c0A3e)

Alright Hans.  You win.  Move a little bit to the left, please.

19 This calls for drastic action.

Send in the Master Chief and the Spartans.

20 A friend of mine works with Naval Intelligence.  He said that we (the U.S.) knew for sure a week or so ago, but couldn't release it. 

Either way, this is bad juju for the DPRK

21 Hey Goober, Stop stealing my lines. 

22 In a related story, The United States Navy has about half as many ships today than it did the last time we had a true leader, Ronald Reagan. Obama and his fellow traveling Democrats are going to get us into a war by weakening us until our enemies no longer fear our military. We're almost there now. And it's not going to be an amorphous "War on Terror" kind of war but a real, hot, winner-take-all, loser-loses-all kind of war. God help us if we can't be rid of Obama before it's too late.

23 Batchelor addressing this now as "worldwide breaking news"....fascinating my friend says the conspiracy blogs she is monitoring for a book had this over a week ago.

24 Someone needs to invent the transcontinental sniper rifle.

Or, fuck it, bomb his ass.

25 Any of you morons watch the last eps of The Pacific?  D'oh is reading the book.

26 I don't even know if the PRC has much pull with them anymore.  I suspect the only thing keeping them from squashing "dear leader" like a bug is the fear of a massive wave of refugees and reconstruction costs.

27 When this one starts, I think the Army might give me that waiver for my eyes.

28 CH02D torpedo, they found all the parts of this per evan the guest on Batchelor.

29 The guest is Evan Ramstad of the WSJ.

30 #28  Dammit.  Wrong thread.  Sorry.

31 Evan Ramstad sounds like a super hero's secret identity.

32 Off Topic -

Shooting at MacDill AFB, Home of CENTCOM and SOCOM,'

Tampa Fire Rescue has responded to a fatal shooting at an entrance gate to MacDill Air Force Base.Officials said rescuers were called to the gate outside the base at 6:47 p.m. Wednesday.Officials said one victim is dead. Tampa police and MacDill base security are investigating.

33 North Korea claiming "this is a fabrication and they want to send an inspection team down to South Korea"

34 Posted by: Druid at May 19, 2010 10:12 PM (Oe01r)

ABC news said something on the order that this was an individual involved in a marital dispute and ran away and was shot dead

35 UN Security Council??

They'll just make the South Koreans pay for the wrecked torpedo.

36 Well, there was never much doubt that the Norks did it. The South Koreans probably knew for sure about ten minutes after it happened. But the problem, as always, is what to do about it. The North is quite simply insane -- there is no such thing as proportional response on the part of the South. Any military response risks a full assault by the North. Which then raises the question -- what can the South do? They can't just let this kind of aggression go without a response of some kind. I'm not sure what options the South really has. Economic sanctions are a joke; the North gets what little they have from China, and China won't cut them off. Humantarian assistance between the two countries is minimal anyway. The fact is, beyond military strikes, there's not much the South can do to the North.

37 "34 Evan Ramstad sounds like a super hero's secret identity.

Posted by: sifty at May 19, 2010 10:12 PM (P8eW0)"

He sounds like such a dork but he has been a very good source for Batchelor in South Korea where he lives.  So when Batchelor brought up the fact that North Korea when they don't like how things are going often resorts to a nuclear weapon, the poor guys verbally crapped his pants pointing out "he hopes not since he lives there".

38 Sink a sub or two. It will cost the Norks some money, yet gives the Norks a chance to claim accident or ignore it entirely and continue the game.

39 curious, initial reports were that an armed she/he/it tried to run agate, that the MFM would refer to as 'victim'.

40 Posted by: Monty at May 19, 2010 10:15 PM (O3eFQ)

Batchelor and guest were discussing China's response which apparently was disbelief and what America's response should be and Evan said that he thought that South Korea's response would be what he is watching.

41 Obama will call a beer summit.

42 "42 curious, initial reports were that an armed she/he/it tried to run agate, that the MFM would refer to as 'victim'.

Posted by: Druid at May 19, 2010 10:18 PM (Oe01r)"

Ah, sorry just posted what they said.  Geez it wasn't too clear was it?

43

I'm available for diplomacy. 

Kim Jung Ill makes me wet. 

44 Ah, sorry just posted what they said.  Geez it wasn't too clear was it?

As usual, terrorism is not suspected. Like last month, some guys on Base TDY got liquored up and figured the rational thing to do was run the gate....

45

"At about 6 p.m., security was called to the altercation, which wasn't described, at a camping area inside the base, said a statement from the Air Force. A veteran was involved in the altercation with another person, according to a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the incident publicly.

One of the people sped away on his motorcycle and security tried to stop him, the news release said.

He evaded them and went to the Dale Mabry Gate. Law enforcement engaged him and he was shot, the military said. No one else was injured. The Air Force did not release the dead man's name.

"Our security forces personnel acted promptly to safeguard the base and its personnel," Col. Larry Martin, 6th Air Mobility Wing commander, said in the statement."

46 The 'stash is on Greta now.  God, I love that man.

47 ROK foreign minister says they have enough evidence to take to the UNSC.

LOL. What is the UN supposed to do? The South Koreans are worthless. They act as if they had an Indonesian Imbecile running them, too. Well ... uh ...

48 @28. Haven't seen the Pacific. Read the book though. I liked it. Less a pure history, more of a personal look at the war. I hope the miniseries does the book justice, but after Tom Hanks went full-on Forrest Gump about precieved racism, I am less than optimistic.

49

#49

Greta grew a stash...nice.  Oh, you mean John Bolton.  My bad.

50 @30, for me the problem was weight. Now that I have lost all that weight, now I'm too old. A blessing in disguise, perhaps.

51 Daaaaaance the night away!

52 ROK foreign minister says they have enough evidence to take to the UNSC.

UNSC:  We have examined the event and determined that it was caused by global warming ... and American Tea Partiers ... and Arizona.

The Indonesian Imbecile: Yeah, bitches.

53 Pug@51  Yeah, I know.  My kid is over in Japan now, and will deploy to Afghanistan in January.  Hanks is a rich idiot.  He really ought to visit the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.  But the pussy never will.

54 It was probably some homegrown torpedo that was mad about health care.

55 Tactical nuke against the NK artillery.

56 Funny thing about Korea, North or South - neither seem to have a name for 'Korea'.

And this North / South split seems to go back a lot further than the Cold War - it's been a while but I seem to recollect that those in the south call themselves Han-Gook (transliteration, but you get the hated racial slur of calling some people by the name they do refer to themselves by), and those in the north , something like Choson.

57 It was probably some homegrown torpedo that was mad about health care.

It tube was just foreclosed on.

58 It was probably some homegrown torpedo that was mad about health care.

Posted by: bloomberg at May 19, 2010 10:28 PM (P8eW0)

And all doped up on salt.

59 Full B2 strike on all Nork palaces and command bunkers.

60 and those in the north , something like Choson.

Posted by: Druid at May 19, 2010 10:29 PM (Oe01r)

It's the Jooooos!

61 I foresee a sale on Kias soon.

62 Predator drones with small tactical nukes?

63 The ROK took it's time apparently to build a rock solid case that the Norks did it.Of course it will get them nowhere,no one gives a fuck about anything but(but staying in power despite) their imminent economic collapse.

64

Yeah, I know.  My kid is over in Japan now, and will deploy to Afghanistan in January.  Hanks is a rich idiot.  He really ought to visit the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.  But the pussy never will.

Tell him thanks for his service for me.  At least Lt. Dan is available.

65 Since when is going to the UN considered 'playing hardball'?  It's not like they'll do more than argue back and forth, eventually agreeing to send a stern letter to the norks.

66 Where the hell is my desk? I swear I saw it when Wookie and I first moved into this damned place.

67 no one gives a fuck about anything but(but staying in power despite) their imminent economic collapse.

Posted by: steevy at May 19, 2010 10:32 PM (FMR/Z)

I think you meant "eminent".  I went to Princeton.

68 The US doesn't deploy tactical nukes anymore,not even sure they are part of the doctrine at all.The asshole in the WH would never authorize their use anyway.

69 And where's that f'n reset button Hillary sent me?

70 RoK playing hardball?? What r u smoking dude? If they were playing hardball The Norks would be eating the scorched radioactive flesh of their countrymen right about now. I hope that was sarcasm.

71 Any riots in Seoul yet?

72 Reset button, my dimpled ass. Obama is looking for the surrender button.


pssst! Hey, Obama, ask Carter where it is.

73 Posted by: Monty at May 19, 2010 10:15 PM (O3eFQ)

They should follow Obama's lead and just say 'Sorry'...

74 Thank goodness the Republicans took care of N. Korea's nukes back when they were in charge.

75 27 Someone needs to invent the transcontinental sniper rifle.

Or, fuck it, bomb his ass.

Posted by: sifty at May 19, 2010 10:08 PM (P8eW0)

You do know who's in charge of the government at the moment right?

76 77 Thank goodness the Republicans took care of N. Korea's nukes back when they were in charge.

Posted by: snapdragon at May 19, 2010 10:45 PM (5Etcj)

And if he had, cocksucking assholes like you would have screamed bloody murder that once again W was playing cowboy. Do us all a favor, go fuck yourself.

77 I guess the Beeb didn't get the memo as they're still reporting it.

Re. the Chinks...
Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Cui Tiankai said on Thursday the sinking of the vessel was "unfortunate" but he would not comment on the international report.

78 Thank goodness the Republicans took care of N. Korea's nukes back when they were in charge.

john ryan's death will come as a major surprise to him.  No one told him that this isn't a game.

79 snapdragon, there's a reason Bush referred to Iraq, Iran, and North Korea as the Axis of Evil.  We were always going to have to eliminate all three of them and he started with the weakest and got bogged down.  Now it will be harder.  So to that extent, you are correct.

80 Thank goodness the Republicans took care of N. Korea's nukes back when they were in charge.

Well done, crapwagon...err...snap...err...fuck it! Time for bed, son.

81 Ooooh, the UN. The Norks are gonna run for cover now.

Steevy- should have gone to Yale or at least high school.

82 Anyone hear from Tom in S. Korea lately? 

83 snapdragon: Raykon without the personality, wit, coruscating mental insight, je ne sais quoi and dash.

/snork

84 Oops.  Forgot.  Snapdragsnatch, go fuck yourself.  Seriously.

85

Tonight, I am eating burritos filled with 27, er, 16 um , different stuff, (tweet blocked) erm,

The precident  of  mexico is here with me, and all is good. We have agreed that the Drug Import Buisness is an Important Aspect of all this economic insecurity. And we will collectively continue to enjoy the fruit.

Drug Import is a National Security Issue.

 

86 Posted by: Methos at May 19, 2010 10:51 PM (Xsi7M)

Bush got beaten down by the left.  He held strong on Iraq, but he lost all strength to do anything else.  Between the MFM's constant harping about everything, lying, the Plame fiasco (which brought much of the federal government to a stop), the insane intelligence assessment, ...

The Iraq war initially started doing exactly what it was supposed to, as Libya was scared shitless and puked up its entire nuke program, which led us to the true extent of the AQ Khan network (more WMD and more dangerous WMD technology than was ever expected out of Iraq) ... but Bush was weakened by the massive assault by the left that started the minute Saddam Hussein was yanked out of that spider hole and they felt safe enough, again, to dive into their seditious babbling - but amplified, this time.

87 "...and got bogged down."

That might be the understatement of the year.

88 Oh Geez, batchelor now has more Korean experts and they are not sounding so positive describing this as "a critical moment".

89 Damn sock.

"I mis-signed," Ten star general Dick Blumenthal, Olympic gold medalist in various events.

90 Anyone hear from Tom in S. Korea lately?

Last we heard, he had built a 460mm potato gun and had it aimed at Pyongyang.

91 "... but Bush was weakened by"

um, not finding any WMDs in Iraq?

92 Dunce.

93 1 Oh Geez, batchelor now has more Korean experts and they are not sounding so positive describing this as "a critical moment".

Sorry, but every moment is critical for/to John Batchelor.  Especially if dramatic film music is playing the in background.

94 #94 Hey, Snappy.  Remember when Clinton and the rest of the western world warned Bush of WMD's in Iraq?  I know you'll get a headache trying to remember, but just try.

95 I know you'll get a headache trying to remember, but just try.

It's a tumor.

96 Jimmy Carter helped NK get their nukes. Bubba was going to strike NK, but Jimmuh intervened and Bubba caved and did the "Agreed Framework" deal. NK stopped the Plutonium program under the framework, but secretly continued their Uranium program. Bush found out in 2002 or 2003. snapdragon, you need to do some homework.

97 Posted by: ParisParamus at May 19, 2010 11:02 PM (lf/rr)

hahhahah that's true....too funny but he does have good information.  Now he and his guests are wondering if this little problem will impact hill and tim's awesome adventure to visit China.

98 Snapdragon's got an 18 inch dildo up her ass. And she likes it....

99

"I mis-signed," Ten star general Dick Blumenthal, Olympic gold medalist in various events

Dude battled Jenn Jiss Kahn too. 

100 Barry is working at warp speed to surpass Jimmah as worst POS president ever.  The libtards, however, will never understand.  Can we please arrange a libtard exchange with, say, Sweden?  At least their libs are more educated and way more attractive. 

101 um, not finding any WMDs in Iraq?

Posted by: snapdragon at May 19, 2010 11:00 PM (5Etcj)

I just explained to you how Iraq led to the AQ Khan network, which was the most important "WMD find" you could have.  Are you too stupid to understand that.

The war in Iraq was about a lot more than WMD, crapwagon.  And everyone knew that Iraq had to be taken down, which is why all of the Dem traitors had to explain their voting FOR the war.  In any event, anyone with a brain understood, the minute their Hussein intentionally dumped 40,000,000 barrels of oil into the gulf and lit just about every oil well in Kuwait on fire, that he could not be allowed to maintain control of one of the most strategically sensitive spots on Earth. 

But you retards don't even care about the INTENTIONAL oil spill or lighting the wells (which is why your pathetic bleating over our drilling makes me laugh) and you're too stupid to understand what a person with such a scorched-earth strategy means in taht part of the world.  Hell, you guys love the Hussein using the same scorched-earth strategy on the US, now.

102 Paris, I've always enjoyed listening to Batchelor.  He is a dmaned good journalist and he is truly sincere.  Rather spend a couple of hours with him than shreeking sean any day.

103 #100, I used to love the show he had with Alexander just after 9/11.  But either the show went downhill, or the Web bloomed to the point where the info he was offering wasn't that unique anymore.

104 Can our Unicorn 1 missile reach NK? Will a full Thermoflavor Skittle attack be enough?

105 #100  OK, I do listen occasionally, still.  I just find his presentation a bit overdramatic.

106 progressoverpeace, I don't really mean to dump on Bush.  Aggressive foreign policy really was the best thing he did for the country.  I just meant to point that snapdragon was mildly right, if clueless as to why. 

107 "I just explained to you how Iraq led to the AQ Khan network, which was the most important "WMD find" you could have."

As a rationalization, it's pretty weak.

Had Saddam had nukes, we might be in a position to do something about North Korea and Iran.

108 Let the coolies work it out themselves, we've got our own problems...

109 When this one starts, I think the Army might give me that waiver for my eyes.

I got caught up in a land war in Asia once.  Didn't like it.

Fortunately now I'm almost as old as the rations they give to the troopies.

110 "Had Saddam had nukes, we might be in a position to do something about North Korea and Iran."

Had Saddam had nukes he'd still be running Iraq, dumbass.

111 Don't think for a minute that China wouldn't like to sink one of our ships.

112 Fuck off Gerry!

113 Barry:  Umm, err, initiate unicorn strike NOW!

Lil' Kim:  Nuke Bawky's butt.  And bwing me a dwink NOW!

114 -->progressoverpeace, I don't really mean to dump on Bush. 

I didn't mean to imply that I got that impression.
I was just adding some detail, from my view.

-->Aggressive foreign policy really was the best thing he did for the country.  I just meant to point that snapdragon was mildly right, if clueless as to why. 

Posted by: Methos at May 19, 2010 11:11 PM (Xsi7M)

I agree - for his first term.  He collapsed to the left in the second term.

115 Saddam himself could explain to snapdrooler that kicking him out was a damn smart move by the USA and snapdrooler still wouldn't believe it or couldn't understand it. It's like trying to teach a dog how to read.

116 Boggles the mind that the mewling pants-wetting sissies with the Coexist (until some muz fucker saws your head off) stickers on their Prius Uteromobiles always think that George W Bush should have been tougher now that he is out of office.

The pacifist rest stop lurkers like this candy-ass crackdragon WOULDN'T HAVE SUPPORTED GEORGE W BUSH CURING CANCER.

If GW had unleashed the hounds on Kim Jung Il they would have been in the fucking streets crying and doing die-ins and all their tired old shit.

Filthy cowards.

117 "Saddam himself could explain to snapdrooler that kicking him out was a damn smart move by the USA and snapdrooler still wouldn't believe it or couldn't understand it."

Well us taking out Saddam did free up Iran to dominate the Middle East.

Guess we'll find out how that turns out.

118 Had Saddam had nukes, we might be in a position to do something about North Korea and Iran.

Posted by: snapdragon at May 19, 2010 11:13 PM (5Etcj)

No one though Saddam had nukes.  He had nuke programs and people knew that there were many chemicals that we KNOW existed there before Clinton let the inspectors get kicked out, that their Hussein claimed he destroyed, but had no paperwork on.  What people expected were lots of chemicals and possibly some bio-weapons or labs.

But, that was beside the point.  There were 14 or so other reasons we had to take Iraq out (and the most important one that I mentioned was not even included in that list) and without WMD it had to be done.  Period.  Our tolerance of external threats was reduced on 9/11, so there were threats that some thought sat below of level of tolerability on 9/10 that were, all of a sudden, above the lowered level on 9/12.  Everyone understood that.  Traitorous leftists (the dems) chose to repress those memories the day their Hussein was dragged out of that spider hole and they felt safe again.  That's when they started in on their seditious policies, again, but with a vengeance.

119 121, Beyond stupid. Some sort of new hyper-stupid.

120 You know what is an awesome memory?  Saddam Hussein dangling from a rope.  Next most awesome?   His evil sons shot to death.

121

The Drugs must be able to continue to have free access to our borders. We cannot resume old rehtoric pollicies of uhm.// ware on drggs// betty ford// what...

 

122 O/T:  I don't remember but did GWB and laura erect tents and monumental marquees when they had state dinners?  And really, really why didn't MO look like the first lady?  

But, most interesting is that after the article I am linking to via drudge the comments are just amazing.  I thought to myself "oh this must be a link to what might be considered a republican/conservative site and I scrolled up and was shocked that the article was on yahoo news.  After you read the comments makes you wonder about those pollsters, are they getting it right?
"Obama turns on glamour for Mexico state dinner"It's worth it to go to drudge and see the first lady in the scary goddess dress.

Oh, and for the folks discussing the Canada/US/Mexico confederacy of sorts there was this little tidbit:  "The marquee, the size of two-thirds of a football field, decked out in elaborate black decor and nightclub-style lighting, featured a stage and baskets of flowers and models of Monarch butterflies dangling from the ceiling.

The Monarch butterfly migrates from Canada, across the United States each year to Calderon's home state of Michoacan in Mexico."

123 Well us taking out Saddam did free up Iran to dominate the Middle East.

Yeah, I wouldn't really count on that whole "Iran dominating the Middle East" thing.

124 Smart morons, stop feeding the troll.  It becomes dependent on your attention.  Leave it to us professionals.

125 "There were 14 or so other reasons we had to take Iraq out (and the most important one that I mentioned was not even included in that list) and without WMD it had to be done."

POP, you must be one of the few Americans who thinks invading Iraq was a good idea.

126 We are talking Trillions of dollars n stuff

127 Okay.  What the hell can S. Korea actually do? 

128 Dude, we are the professionals.

129 Snapdragon, please go on back to KOS or wherever.  You are making me really disgusted and angry, because my only child is a Marine and patriot.  Go away, you loser.

130 Our infrastructure's so fucked up that we have to import gasoline but somehow we dominate the Middle East!

131 Our remaining F-14s are flying held together by chicken wire and duct tape, but somehow we dominate the Middle East!

132 "There were 14 or so other reasons we had to take Iraq out (and the most important one that I mentioned was not even included in that list) and without WMD it had to be done."

Can I put $10 on "Saddam's regime violated the terms of the Gulf War cease fire agreement by firing on our planes patrolling the no fly zones-on a daily basis"?  Which as a consequence, meant we were already in a state of war and no action by Congress or the UN was ever actually required.

133 You know how we dominate the Middle East? With five whole frigates. Five! Tremble!

134 Well us taking out Saddam did free up Iran to dominate the Middle East.

Guess we'll find out how that turns out.

Posted by: snapdragon at May 19, 2010 11:23 PM (5Etcj)

President PantLoad is all over that....

'Gentlemen, the apologies are flying...Hallelujah!!'

Where's that Blazer fellow??  What movie is that from Mr. Man???

135

It all will come down.

Chaos.

136 Miss USA Now Praising America?

137 Thanks, Randal.  I'll have nice dreams tonight.

138 International relations the way it should be done:

Reincarnation-of-Reagan:  "Dear United Nations:  I regret to inform you that last Tuesday, unknown parties broke into a U.S. nuclear storage bunker and seem to have stolen a quintet of baby nukes, complete with arming devices.

"I say 'baby nukes' because these are almost the smallest nuclear weapons in our arsenal--a paltry 300,000 tons of TNT equivalent.  Or in the jargon, 300 kilotons.  To put that in perspective, the weapon we regrettably dropped on our former adversary--and now close ally--Japan, to end WW2, was about 20 kilotons.

"We're not certain, but we think the thieves might have been enterprising Libyans looking to sell the warheads to rogue elements of South Korea's military, who seem to be a bit upset with North Korea for sinking one of their patrol boats a couple of weeks ago.

"Now, I want to make it perfectly clear that we think it would be a *real shame* if, next week, morning in North Korea was accompanied by six sunrises instead of just one.  But gosh, there's not a thing we can do now to prevent that.  It's all up to...somebody else now.

"Oh, and if by chance a couple of suns do rise near Kim's palace next week, we do heartily suggest that our good friends the North Korean people not do anything rash, because we're pretty sure a total of five warheads are missing.

"Of course, we've been pretty busy and may have miscounted.

"That is all."

139 128 Smart morons, stop feeding the troll.  It becomes dependent on your attention.  Leave it to us professionals.

Posted by: Troll Feeder at your local zoo at May 19, 2010 11:31 PM (8OTio)

Naw, that there is one of them there 'Fly' trolls.  Loves to eat shit an bother people.

Been around for awhile.....

140 Can I put $10 on "Saddam's regime violated the terms of the Gulf War cease fire agreement by firing on our planes patrolling the no fly zones-on a daily basis"?  Which as a consequence, meant we were already in a state of war and no action by Congress or the UN was ever actually required.

Posted by: Methos at May 19, 2010 11:37 PM (Xsi7M)

Yeah.  It's funny how the left always ignored that. 

141 Miss USA.  So well spoken!  When will the fatwah or jihad happen on her head for her non-burka wearing?

142 Wth?  Who let Fapdragon in?

143 145 Miss USA.  So well spoken!  When will the fatwah or jihad happen on her head for her non-burka wearing?

Would it be bad if I din't give a shit one way or the other???

144 Using a rotodome as a Frisbee to take out the tail of your own aircraft is a key element in dominating the Middle East.

145 What can SK do? It's easy. SK attacks Iran and Israel attacks NK. I mean, just for the WTF headlines, it would be cool.

146 Full B2 strike on all Nork palaces and command bunkers.

Posted by: sifty

jib, newsletter, etc.

147 You know you're hot shit when you're using T-55s and M-47s! Praise Allah!

148 71 The US doesn't deploy tactical nukes anymore,not even sure they are part of the doctrine at all.

Posted by: steevy at May 19, 2010 10:37 PM (FMR/Z)

 

I suspect that the 15th FA, 8th Army in South Korea, the 8th ID and the 172nd IB in Germany and SASCOM and USAAG in Torkey will be shocked by your revelation. Perhaps someone from our government will be contacting you to ascertain what you know about the disappearance of the tactical nukes that were still dispersed among those field artillary units as of, oh, about ten minutes ago. (Never mind tactical nukes on U.S. Navy submarines and aircraft carriesrs and cruisers. They'll be shocked to learn that theirs are missing, too.) 

149 The Iranians won't dominate anything. Bunch of camel-fuckers trying to find reverse in a Soviet tank.

150 Oh, and did I mention that until you revealed your shocking revelation, steevy, other members of NATO like the Netherlands and Great Britain still have tactical nukes dispersed among their field artillary units, too. I'm sure that they are frantically searching for their missing tactical nukes right this minute.

151 OT: What movie debuted 30 years ago tomorrow?

152 Know it, you do.

153 Led watch watch led watches led led wrist watch

154 We concur Dragger of Snaps. Saddam had no nukes.

155 We're just very lucky Iraq had very weak lace wig technology.

156 Snagdragon, Please die. Of your own accord. Before I have to make it happen for you.

157

AP is playing magical morphing story tonight.

Anyone know what the new chocolate ration is going to be?

158 Know it, you do.

Posted by: eman at May 20, 2010 12:05 AM (ONBbr)

You're marking the anniversary of a sequel?  Have we bored you that much?

159 162, Nah, I just wanted snapdrooler to bang his Jabba the Hutt doll.

160

His evil sons shot to death.

Yeah. In a lot of ways, those fuckers were worse than their father.

161 164, Acute lead poisoning. Messy.

162 Well seeing as no one has said it yet.

"It's a trap!"

More than likely it the DRPK's way of trying to draw the south into something, ANYTHING!

Kim needs to take his powerful and flourishing people's mind off having to eat their own grandmother.

163 If Obama were to balk at using tactical nukes in an appropriate situation, he could be executed or imprisoned for treason. What is scary, though, is that he is such a madmant that he might take that risk, deluding himself that he was doing so for some imagined noble reason that served his loony agenda.

164

Filthy cowards. Democrats.

Less is more - never use two words where one will suffice.

165 Now, it's not too hard to imagine that a real President might be able to convene a summit of the RoK and the Chinese at which would be settled how much territory on the northern border the Chinese want to secure as a buffer zone, and how much ownership the Chinese would get of RoK-subsidized industrial development in the former North.

Then we'd drop it on Li'l Kim with the suggestion that we'd already bought him and his general staff a nice island in the Mediterranean (the Greeks can use the money) and stocked it with blondes and Chivas and all the Viagra they could ever want, and it'd be a shame if we had to induce them to shed the surly bonds of this mortal existence before they had a chance to enjoy it all.

166 THE BOOMERS ARE BORED TACTICAL ROLE PLAY IS THE MOST best TRAINING!!!! CAN WE GO LIVE in 3 2 1 SNAP SHOT!!!! Where did all those dog eaters go? HHHMMmmmm I smell BBQ....

167 Too bad we have the world's greatest tampon magnet for "CIC" Hell...even tampons won't go near him fingers over the keyboard I got nothing....WE have nothing

168 I suspect that the 15th FA, 8th Army in South Korea, the 8th ID and the 172nd IB in Germany and SASCOM and USAAG in Torkey will be shocked by your revelation. Perhaps someone from our government will be contacting you to ascertain what you know about the disappearance of the tactical nukes that were still dispersed among those field artillary units as of, oh, about ten minutes ago. (Never mind tactical nukes on U.S. Navy submarines and aircraft carriesrs and cruisers. They'll be shocked to learn that theirs are missing, too.) df

Posted by: Natasha & Boris at May 19, 2010 11:54 PM (ITzbJ)What this idiot is saying simply is not correct.  2ID Divarty doesn't have this capability, and hasn't for at least decades.  I guess he can't even spell artillery, let alone divulge something as incredibly classified as nuclear weapons.

We do have a tremendous number of cluster munitions, however.  And I'm sure we have a nuclear strike capability, of course, in the sea and from the air and Kadena, but the idea that we have a stack of 'hot' shells in some mountain near border is incorrect.  It's simply terrible risk management to have that kind of equipment in such a place.

I realize he's a typically idiotic troll whose entire point is to screw with nicer smarter commenters, but no one should worry about anything this nutjob says.  Of course, any nuclear weapon use would have to be approved by our president (or, I guess, the British Prime Minister, since the troll brought them up for some random reason).  We all know there's no chance of that occurring. 

The problem here is that you can't really use nuclear weapons so close to 20 million civilians.  Most of the high value targets are within 50 miles of Seoul.  Go 300 miles and you're hitting China easily.  We aren't preparing for the DPRK with nukes because that would be like nuking yourself.  There is some concern about dirty bombs, but mark my words: part of the North's reasoning is that the rice patties are melted.  It's extremely difficult for a land war to occur in this part of the world unless the ground is frozen.  We can't invade them, they can shoot up Seoul and are trying to act crazy enough to get concessions.

My fear is that this is going to lead to a repeat of Albright/Clinton's disaster in 1994.  They had an opportunity to do some real good, but left Bush with a huge problem that was basically impossible to deal with.  When terrorists finally nuke a Western City, the process will have been helped greatly by Clinton's trust of North Korea not to develop the weapons (which has helped Iran considerably).  Ignoring long term foreign relations problems unless Clinton needed a short term distraction has already killed thousands of Americans.  It will probably kill many more.

And North Korea understands it has a very limited window with which to get more concessions before Obama is potentially replaced.  They have to rattle their saber hard to get somewhere with that.

169 Lol at my formatting failure, but my comment started before my italics ended.  The troll doesn't know what he's talking about.  No one is surprised.

170 More acronyms please, I was very close to understanding what the fuck this post was referring to. Can't. Have. That.

171 If Obama were to balk at using tactical nukes in an appropriate situation, he could be executed or imprisoned for treason. What is scary, though, is that he is such a madmant that he might take that risk, deluding himself that he was doing so for some imagined noble reason that served his loony agenda.

Posted by: Natasha & Boris at May 20, 2010 12:40 AM (ITzbJ)

What a moron.  Obama would be executed for not using tactical nukes?  That's absolutely ridiculous.  He's already on the record for wanting to completely eliminate such weapons.  We're not even talking about strategic nukes, but tactical ones.  Obama is the commander in chief and there's no mechanism to force him to use that type of weapon.  You're a liberal pretending to be a conservative because you're too stupid to actually argue your points.

172 of course they did. and what will the UN, or the Obambi administration do about it? Oh, N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

The time will come when we will have to deal with North Korea one way or another. It's just a matter of time. Why? Because like Iran, and Iraq before it, N Korea has an unresolved prior conflict with the U.S..

When this evil regime collapses, and it will because its system is not self-sustaining, the world will be shamed by the cruel human rights abuses that occurred under this oppressive government. The loss of life, the cruel conditions under which the N Korean people have had to suffer will shame the decent people of the world, and it should because we have done N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

173 "More acronyms please, I was very close to understanding what the fuck this post was referring to. Can't. Have. That.
Posted by: Modgi"

DPRK = communist north korea

UNSC = UN Security Counsel

ROK = South Korea

USFK and CFC = Good guys

ITzbJ = Lame nutjob liberal moby

174 "ITzbJ = Lame nutjob liberal moby".....missed that one
(dUOK+)  = CJ,...is that you?

175 Hell just airdrop about 8 million pre-cooked turkeys all over NK, then wait about 30 minutes and you can waltz right in without firing a shot.  You can call your new country Napia!

176 Actually, those are my initials, so I had a moment of 'holy shit' amazement, but you're referring to Charles Johnson?

I change my handle all the time here, but I don't think I've ever used one with those letters, if you're just asking.

I don't really know if he's a moby, but some of the stuff he says is obviously ridiculous.  It's probably meant to derail the discussion.

I happened to know that we don't plan to deploy nuclear weapons in Korea from artillery positions.  And if you think about any realistic invasion scenario, it's easy to see why this is the case.  North Korea has thousands of MRLs and cannons aiming randomly and not so randomly.  Why would we deploy cannon or rocket artillery nukes that could be damaged almost instantly?  While we have very well protected AHAs all over the peninsula, artillery has to emerge, aim, and fire.  It's a bad solution with grave risks that isn't necessary.   There's enough protection offered by the Navy and AF.  The Army has a hell of a job in Area 1, but nuking North Korea is not part of their plans.

And the idea that Obama would be executed for not using a tactical nuke is either chemtrail looneybin material, or an effort to pretend conservatives are kooks (by acting as a moby).

In all seriousness, though, the domestic devastation in North Korea is massive.  I don't think they could sustain any kind of effort, but they could kill millions of people in a short time and leave us with the terrible task of fixing a brainwashed nation.  There are no easy answers.

177

crapweasel:

"Well us taking out Saddam did free up Iran to dominate the Middle East.
Guess we'll find out how that turns out."

That's a feature, not a bug for the left.  They'll be jacking each other off in the streets if Tel Aviv gets nuked.

178 "That's a feature, not a bug for the left. "

IIRC, "The Left" was rather opposed to our invasion of Iraq.

179 Maybe the dprk's and libtards have a little secret thing going, lefty leaky leahy is pushing the land mine ban again which are the only things keeping the hordes from the North K at bay.  If the mines are removed kimie pooh could take over all of Korea and turn it into another commie paradise like cuba. And the leftards would have another notch for killing capitalism again this time in the ROK.

180 ""Well us taking out Saddam did free up Iran to dominate the Middle East.
Guess we'll find out how that turns out.""

This is insane.  Iran has gotten some footholds in Iraq and that is terribly unfortunate, but they are far more democratic and have come a long way (Iraq).  Of course democracy brings with it influence from bad people.

Look at a map, though.  It makes Bush's foreign policy appear focused on surrounding Iran.  Sadly, the left successfully hampered him.  We now know the leaks about Iran having no nuke program were fabricated to make it impossible for Bush to deal with Iran at all.  He was lucky he managed to succeed in Iraq.  He had to trade all kinds of crap just to keep the troops fed out there. 

But Iran's in a much worse position now than they would be had Bush not invaded Iraq.  They are teetering on the edge of economic collapse, and their neighbor is far more advanced and the gap widens every day.

Iraq is an infant, but it won't be long before they are drastically outpacing their neighbors.  They won't ever be perfect, and I'm sure a lot of Islamofacists will make some dents in the nation, but this was always the only card we had to play in the GWOT... exporting freedom.

I know it's easy to pretend Saddam wasn't any kind of threat in a 9/12 world, now that the GOP cleaned up Clinton's mess.  But it's still pretending.

181 Snapdragon's obviously pretty smart, so I wonder if he/she will enlighten us: assuming that North Korea deliberately torpedoed a South Korean ship, killing South Korean citizens, (a) what should South Korea do about it, and (b) what should the US do about it? 

182 "(a) what should South Korea do about it, and (b) what should the US do about it? "

(a)  Kick the can down the road.
(b)  ditto

183 Wow.  A sovereign nation should sit idly by while its citizens are murdered with impunity?  I must admit, I didn't expect such a candid response.

184 " Wow.  A sovereign nation should sit idly by while its citizens are murdered with impunity?  I must admit, I didn't expect such a candid response."

Kicking the North Korean can down the road has worked for every president since Eisenhower.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

185 Okay, follow-up question: how many South Koreans may North Korea murder annually before South Korea ought to respond in some fashion?  More or less than one hundred people?

186 It's hard to argue with snapdragon in this case.

They have nuclear weapons now.  Even if they can barely get a real nuke, they have dirty nukes and the like.

Bill Clinton was in power when North Korea underwent a change of ruler, and he negotiated with them.  They got money and time to make weapons.  We got obviously ludicrous promises.

Because he kicked that can down the road, now it's moved from difficult to impossible.  We have to wait and hope somehow the regime changes to a more peaceful or sane one.  And that is extremely unlikely; the next ruler of North Korea is even crazier than the current one, if reports are at all accurate.

But is there a better plan than to try to kick this down the road?  I can't think of any.

187 ": how many South Koreans may North Korea murder annually before South Korea ought to respond in some fashion?"

Right now, if South Korea responds, they are putting tens of millions of their people at severe risk.  North Korea really could respond with a full barrage of Seoul.  They are fucking nuts.  Of course, if South Korea does not respond, this will happen to another ship or plane.  It's not like this is the first time North Korea has done something like this.

I wish China would just annex North Korea, but they don't want this ruined place either.

188 "Right now, if South Korea responds, they are putting tens of millions of their people at severe risk."

So that's how the calculation works?  As long as the number of murdered South Koreans is less than the expected casualties of a hot war, there is no response to cold-blooded, intentional murder?

I understand a hot war is a bad, bad situation, but dude...

189 172 Do we have enough time? Iran seems to be pacing their movements in time with distractions elsewhere. Who really controls the play at this moment? Clinton? Nothing more than a faded dish-towel in this super-cycle wash. Obama seems more interested in aroma-therapy back-rubs on Mexico's Calderone. While border states take the Federal issue of illegal immigration into their own hands. Me thinks this will be a VERY active summer. Look to Israel to set the tone of international movements of any notice. My thoughts onlyl

190 I will not lose faith in America's RIGHT to be AMERICA!

191 New Poll

192 "So that's how the calculation works?  As long as the number of murdered South Koreans is less than the expected casualties of a hot war, there is no response to cold-blooded, intentional murder?

I understand a hot war is a bad, bad situation, but dude...

Posted by: Sobek at May 20, 2010 02:20 AM (gQmzw) "

I'm just saying I can't come up with a solution, given this problem.  I realize, of course, that the DPRK is evil, and killing those sailors is evil, and justice should be done.  I just don't see how we're supposed to do that.  The DPRK is insane.  There is no 'teaching them a lesson'.  Just as Captain Bonifas.

If I could, I would happily see everyone involved with decision making in North Korea shot.  But this isn't about my fantasies... this is about protecting South Korea, Japan, and ultimately, the USA, from North Korea.  I don't think we did the right thing with Clinton was president... and I think that led directly to a situation where Bush had very little wiggle room, and Obama has little wiggle room (or willpower to do anything, anyway).  It's too late.

It's not too late to stop Iran from getting into a similar position, and years from now, I suspect we'll be furious that some atrocity Iran committed can't be dealt with properly because Iran is insane and could kill millions.  When I see North Korea, all I see that is relevant is a warning about how to avoid that clusterfuck by being strong when it matters most.  While I hope there is some super awesome contingency worked up to deal with North Korea without leading to millions dead, that feels a little too much like Desert One to me.

193 OT: Ace should be promoting this guy in Oregon:

Art Robinson

Oregon 4th House district.

He has a facebook page.

Article here: http://tinyurl.com/2ab5wby

194 Problem is the NorKs *do* have chemical weapons.  And they will probably use them.

They also have gun emplacements inside mountains with huge stores of ammunition in place that don't require resupply for a long time.  They could hammer Seoul with artillery for days.

If I were South Korea, I would be moving the capital South.  WAY South.

195 The South Korean capital is in a pretty stupid place, agreed.

196

As an aside, I've been reading through the comments at the Yahoo news link above and I'm thinking what a handy commenting system they have over there, you can 'up-ding' or 'down-ding' or reply on an individual comment, sort by newest or highest rated, etc...why can't we have something like that over here?   ...the only thing sort of missing is sock-puppeting capabilities, though you have to be registered I guess and you can change your 'display name'...it'd probably change for all your posts, not just that specific one.

Another thing I notice is that the comment raters seem to be pretty conservative leaning, judging by the up-dings and down-dings.

197 IP = 205.209.140.179

198 Anybody need a watch?...no?...sorry efewfe don't need any watches...

199 IP = 119.123.251.8

200 IP = 119.123.251.8

201 Fox News headline reads "North Korea Threatens War".  I suppose they think it is now or never. The US is probably the weakest now that it will ever be.  We will not do anything to piss off China as long as three generations of Americans owes China half our wages.  Obama's programs would stop dead in their tracks if China stopped buying our debt.

So they figure they can probably invade South Korea and there really isn't a lot the US is going to do about it. Obama will do as the Chinese tell him to do.

I believe there will be a war and it will be before election day.

202 IP = 119.130.22.253

203 IP = 119.130.22.253

204 Crosspatch, I think there's some plausibility to the idea that North Korea gets weaker every day, so if they ever want to use all this military crap they've been building up, they need to do so soon.

But on the other hand, it simply isn't feasible for them to invade South Korea beyond the special operations level.  The area between the countries is  mountainous, requiring travel through the valleys which are very easily bombarded and impassibly soft ground because the roads have hundreds of tank traps.

they can't invade, and we can't invade practically.

But they can get enough attention to begin another round of talks.  The talks in the 90s were worth hundreds of millions of dollars to the rulers of North Korea, and we got nothing out of them but promises they proudly broke.  I think that's what they want a repeat of, because they have measured Obama and like what they see.

What would North Korea do with South Korea (who their leaders realize would kick their asses... we do our joint exercises in such a way that they can observe just how powerful we are)?    Sure, a war can bring a people together to ignore problems they should blame on their rulers, but is North Korea really in danger of an overthrow?  In fact, things are structured there so it's not even possible for South Korea to defend itself without the US Military also being engaged.

Of course, everything I say has a big glaring problem: they are totally insane, so sure, they might invade an impossible to invade country (in the warm months, it's just not going to work).  Maybe they don't really care that the South Koreans would humiliate them in battle.  Maybe they see the exercises and think back to the myth of Kim Jung Il's dad defeating the entire US Military with a freaking sword....

If there is such an effort, the awful part will end quickly.  They will rain hell down on the masses in Seoul and surrounding areas.  We will carpet their land with bombs and use bunker busters and drones and naval barrages to stop them.  Millions of people will be dead and the world very well could see some huge economic consequences.  Iran would definitely play along in whatever way they could.

In fact, Iran usually does do something crazy when North Korea does, so perhaps we can expect something major from that side of the world.

I miss Bush, even though he did not clean this mess up.

205 How could they sink a RoK ship? They were in the GoM sinking an oil platform.

206 The NOKs know we have a pussy in the WH and they are pushing to see what they can get away with. In their last episode after many stern warnings from the commander of bowing they went ahead and "did it anyway".  They shivered in their boots as the WH sent a stern letter and the UN talked some more.

They are upping the anti each time.  Sinking another nation's ship and killing its sailors is and always has been considered an act of war. In olden times when something like this happened the offended nation would go in a do something considered equal for retribution.

That is the "tit-for-tat" theory that we were discussing in politics a few days ago.  This is the kind of shit where that theory originated. If we or the SOKs do not respond they will watch for a while and up the anti once more.

Keep in mind that their original invasion occurred because they thought the U.S. had decided South Korea was of no concern based on another Democrat pussy U.S. politician's speech which left out Korea as an area we considered vital.

In that invasion due to the lack of troops, material, and training they pushed us almost into the sea. That occurred because we had once again stripped the military to nothing because we had "the bomb" and it would take care of all problems.

Well guess what.  We have fewer troops in SK now than we did then and we have the biggest pussy in the WH that we have EVER had.

If I was SK I would be expanding the shit out the military and gearing up for a war.

207

(chuckling here)  I see that that little twerp. "Lex Luther", aka, "Sentient Nintendo", aka, my own little pet babbling Elmo waited until I left last night, and then  commenced with more of his incoherent rantings, ravings, blustering and bloviating. 

This is too funny. That little twerp is around the bend, real funny farm material.  I feel sooooooo guilty that it was my taunts which made him that loony. I do, really. Honestly, I do. I really do. (giggle, giggle) 

208 #213 - I suspect that if push comes to shove, the South Koreans will be able to take care of themselves this time. Those ROKs are some pretty tough soldiers.

209 #216 - The Chicoms haven't fielded an army in more than 60 years. So they don't have any battle-tested officers or NCO's who could provide competent leadership. Their army would just be a mob. The ROKs have battle-tested, savvy, upper echelon officers who served with us in Viet Nam.  The ROKs probably have the toughest army and air wings in the orient. The North Koreans will have their asses handed to them if they're crazy enough to fuck with the ROKs.

210 EVERYONE DRAW MUHAMMAD DAY IS UPON US.

211 Wow, Natasha and Boris bringing the nuclear grade stupid - sorry I missed the beat down.

212 giggle away, you weirdo.  It really means nothing to me, but anyone can check your hash and see that you've been following me around for months, and I only recently even realized it because when you were mocking me, you were impossible to understand.  You're taking my points about you being obsessed with me and incoherent, and projecting that onto me because you simply aren't intelligent enough to respond to anything I said.  You claimed the artillery has nukes to use against North Korea.  They don't.  You claimed Obama could be executed if he didn't use tactical level nukes.  That's insane.  I get that you crave attention and think you win now that I respond to you.  As I said, I really don't care that you enjoy it... I'll comment or not comment whether you like it or not.  You seem to spend 18 hours a day (this is not an exaggeration) on here.  I probably spend less time on here in a month, even though I think this is a great blog.  We both know you're just too much a coward to actually state your arguments from your true point of view.  Perhaps you tried that for a while and embarassed yourself, so now you take that time honored pussy's method of "giggling" that you won the troll every time someone 'takes the bait' of even noticing you.

You're obviously deeply disturbed, but the adults are concerned about a real problem, and I wanted to note that your claims are extremely inaccurate.  As a person who has served in Area 1 in 2ID for the USFK, I care a great deal about the Korean people and Americans who want to discuss this situation... it's not important to me whether or not you are giggling.  You say I'm incoherent in this thread... can anyone quote anything I said in this thread that is difficult to understand?

--------

Anyway, Vic's right, if South Korea doesn't figure out a way to humiliate and retaliate against the Norks, they will suffer an even worse injury.  We're training this insane country to behave worse and worse.

"I suspect that if push comes to shove, the South Koreans will be able to take care of themselves this time. Those ROKs are some pretty tough soldiers."

They are amazing, but even though they would certainly repel an invader, they would also suffer hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties at best.  And after they win, they've gotten very little.  If they attempt to actually unify their country, it will be plain hell to do.  If they don't, they are back at square one.  I don't think China would actually send troops in, but their intervention could occur and be terrible.  Or they could take the opportunity to deal with Taiwan.

And even though I can't think of a realistic way to deal with this problem that doesn't carry completely unacceptable risks, Vic's still right... if we do nothing, we will face a more severe injury, and another, and another, until we have to take that unacceptable risk.

213

 The Chicoms haven't fielded an army in more than 60 years. So they don't have any battle-tested officers or NCO's who could provide competent leadership. Their army would just be a mob.

believe it or not. human wave tactics work when you have more bodies than your enemy has bullets. Ask the Russians and Germans.

 

Also, China has been involved in wars more recent than 60 years. They've also had border skirmishes with russia and india that resulted in casualties.

214 I didn't miss it. -- Nat & Boris; premise is right - history is wrong. Please go ask the Vietnamese about that Chinese army, been a few issues in Himalayas as well. Doesn't matter - as the Commie model doesn't empower NCOs regardless of combat experience. The PLA as much a business now as it is an Army. Unfortunately, the Korean theater is one in which they could actually project to -- and as Stalin (may have) said, "Quantity has a Quality all it's own."

215 So are we going to War? Do I have to pack a bag?

216

Anyway, Vic's right, if South Korea doesn't figure out a way to humiliate and retaliate against the Norks, they will suffer an even worse injury.  We're training this insane country to behave worse and worse.

I don't really know what they can do. If they do nothing it is probably certain the current government will be voted out and a hardliner voted in.

who knows, right?

i guess we'll just have to wait and see what they do.

History shows that they take a lot of shit from the Norks and do nothing about it, but this was a pretty big deal with  some 42 sailors dead.

217 I had a Russian describe those border incidents with China as "live fire war games." There was a predetermined, political stop line for both sides.

218 I had a Russian describe those border incidents with China as "live fire war games." There was a predetermined, political stop line for both sides. Posted by: Jean at May 20, 2010 08:24 AM (JaO+v) Yeah but both the Ruskies and Chicoms were/are semi-sane. Not so much with the North Koreans

219 What the ROK needs is a security zone to the North of Seoul large enough to out range the NOrk artillery and then a layered Iron Dome/Terminal Phase BDM system. The question of beating NOrks isn't beating them, its dealing with them while them while they have a cocked gun pointed at Seoul. Real nukes in their hands only makes it worse.

220 .

221

Wow...was that the original Crapwagon up-thread??

Morn' all.

 

222 " I had a Russian describe those border incidents with China as "live fire war games." There was a predetermined, political stop line for both sides."

Good grief life is cheap when the government has total control.  Something like 1 in 6 North Koreans have starved to death since Kim Jung Il took power.  And if we were to completely destroy his armies but he managed to escape, he wouldn't lose a second of sleep over it.  He's practically dead anyway.  I don't understand how people could be that foul, but that's the naivety of living in the land of the free talking.

You mentioned that NCOs don't get much autonomy in other militaries.  Of course, the same is true even for officers.  That sub sank the South Korean vessel under direct orders that contemplated this current issue.  They are getting all the attention they wanted.

223 I might have maybe sort of missed, or not missed, depending on the day, the Vietnam Conflict. But sign me up for Korea 2010, bitches!111!!!1!1 LESBIANS!11!!1!1!

224 I'm a left-wing guy and not at all a neocon, but I'm really anxious to see the logical contortions of the reflexive anti-war left now. We're completely right that Iraq was an unnecessary, adventurous blunder and that Afghanistan is rapidly becoming an untenable quagmire. But North Korea, and Iran, have always been another kettle of fish.

225 Courage! What makes a king out of a slave? Courage! What makes the flag on the mast to wave? Courage! What makes the elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist, or the dusky dusk? What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage! What makes the sphinx the seventh wonder? Courage! What makes the dawn come up like thunder? Courage! What makes the Hottentot so hot? What puts the "ape" in apricot? What have they got that I ain't got?

226 Jack: A-stan has always been an untenable state, thats why AQ setup shop there - we are doing damn well in spite of that - let see what happens after the poppy crop fails. Iraq violated all of the imposed UN sanctions, all of the cease fire terms, and fired on those monitoring the sanctions -- would you, on the left, have the UN so ignored as to be irrelevant? What will we do in a world without respect for international law?

227

Posted by: Jack Landsman at May 20, 2010 08:47 AM (Y1hgA)

Yup.  It's always that lingering threat that didn't get dealt with that was the REAL problem.  Sure.  Of course, that list of lingering threats always seems to change with circumstances.  Not so long ago all the Leftists were sure that Iran was a harmless little puppy dog, and just needed a cuddle to give up its naughty ways.  No nuke program - no way!  After all, the Iranians SAID they didn't want nuclear weapons.  It was the Left that thought we could pay off NK to be nice.  Now all of a sudden they rememer how they always thought Iran and NK were big problems.  I hope most Americans still have the good sense to call "bullshit."

228 Weasel Zippers has a Draw Mohammed Day page up, http://tinyurl.com/24cpduz -- enjoy

229 We're completely right that Iraq was an unnecessary, adventurous blunder

I'm curious - how many more decades of "keeping a lid on Saddam" military deployments and occasional dustups to smack him down when he stepped over the line would you have been willing to pay for had we not taken him out? 

60 years?  like we've done with the DPRK?   30,000 US troops on the border for 60 years cost a few bucks you know. 

Just toss a number out, 30 years, 50, whatever.  I won't ask you to defend it.

230 "We're completely right that Iraq was an unnecessary, adventurous blunder"

It's easy to say that now that Saddam is no longer making WMDs and taking hundreds of shots at our planes and neighbors, but he was quite a threat.  Bill Clinton, Tom Daschle, and Al Gore were 100% right to institute a policy of regime change based on Saddam's long running attempts to create incredibly terrible weapons.

Remember, Saddam started a war that killed 2 million people.  He had an overt nuclear reactor under construction with the express purpose of making weapons.  He made terrible chemical weapons and used them on civilians.

It's easy to say he was contained, after the fact, but he really did need to go.  More to the point, something had to be done to try to foment freedom in that region.  I don't think the war has led to ideal results and I think a lot of mistakes were made... which isn't that unusual.  But it's sad that Bush won't get credit for the 9/11s he managed to prevent.  What's clear is that Saddam broke the terms of the cease fire. 

And look what happens when you let someone repeatedly get away with secret weapons programs and cease fire violations?  You get North Korea sinking your boat and snorting you won't stop them because while they were officially contained, they developed the bomb.  Also, I think Saddam's WMD program went to Syria and I think Bush has to accept responsibility for not arguing this case and continuing the war into Syria if needed.  He let the anti war left have the bully pulpit.

Anyway, I'm glad you're on board, Jack, that we should deal with North Korea.  How do we do that, though?  Wouldn't it have been better to deal with them when their cease fire and weapons dev violations were not at this severe point?

231 It's a good thing that we aren't defined by our borders or this might be something serious.

232 Yes, the left has great ways to deal with the NOKs. Give them money, fuel oil, and basketballs and they will be nice.

The commiecrat party has a worst foreign policy than Ron Paul and the big "L" libertarians. At least the big L's only want to retrench to fortress America to take care of ourselves.

The commiecrats want to disband the military and surrender.

233 Not so long ago all the Leftists were sure that Iran was a harmless little puppy dog, and just needed a cuddle to give up its naughty ways.

THANK YOU  They were threatening to impeach Bush if he dealt with Iran, threatening to cut funding to the troops in combat elsewhere.  They lied about a grave threat and used that. Now they claim it's a serious problem we should have dealt with instead of Iraq, which is just incredible to me.

Also, Jean's right, Afghanistan may be a clusterfuck right now, but it's been one long before 9/11.  We obviously had no choice but to attempt the nearly impossible mission of replacing the Taliban with something reasonable.

234

If SK does nothing, which seems likely at this point, it invites more bad behavior.  Waiting for the Norks to starve to death may have some validity as a strategy, but I don't think they'll wait around to go out with a wimper when they can go out now with a bang.  I think the border bears watching, and the SK's need to look for an excuse to launch a preemptive strike.  Prioritize the stock piles of ammo and food that the Norks will need to carry on any sustained effort.  We should be sharing our latest cave cleansing explosive tech with them.  If war is coming regardless, and I think it is, it is better to strike first.  Catching an enemy in an offensive posture off guard can be helpful. 

And while it would be emotionally satisfying to see the SKs nuke the Norks, I think that prudent use of massive, yet comparatively inexpensive, conventional weapons like the MOAB would be just about as good.  No radiation, but a really big boom regardless.  Real shock and awe.  The kind we should have used on the Iraqis, and will one day have to use on the Iranians. 

235 For all of Nat&Boris's upthread nuclear bluster about American tac nukes sitting hot in tube some where in ROK -- We need to remember that the RoK has long been rumored to a be a member of the "4 bolts away" club -- a very interesting response to this NOrk misadventure would be a credible, well documented test of free flight capable RoK nuke.

236 I'll keep em coming at you boris. I remember china recently was seen by satelites moving submarines into the side of a mountain. If china is willing to move mountains do you think they do not have a capable army?

237 For all of Nat&Boris's upthread nuclear bluster about American tac nukes sitting hot in tube some where in ROK -- We need to remember that the RoK has long been rumored to a be a member of the "4 bolts away" club -- a very interesting response to this NOrk misadventure would be a credible, well documented test of free flight capable RoK nuke.

We pulled our nukes out of SK long ago. If I am not mistaken we no longer have ANY nukes of ours on foreign soil and may not have any outside CONUS.

238 Purp: As a believer in the necessity of a benign American hegemony, I'd happily trade a policy of Iraq containment ad infinitum for the incredible lost of life and cost overruns we did experience in actually taking him out. (And I can say that as a liberal who never believed Saddam posed that serious a threat, unlike many liberals who believed everything Clinton and then Bush said about Saddam's WMD but opposed the war still; a risky, indefensible calculation.) Furthermore, I have no problem whatsoever with the Clinton administration's official policy of regime change which doesn't necessarily mean hundreds of billions of dollars spent and thousands of dead soldiers. As far as the hypothetical costs of prolonged containment and the comparison to the DPRK situation: that's the responsibility of world's lone superpower. It's not as if some future contingency won't necessitate our return to Iraq despite the glorious success of the surge anyway.

239 A strongly worded letter.

This is what leftism is about, brainwash the masses into believing that war is so terrible that nothing is worth the cost.

You can argue all you want as to what SK's response should be, but at the end of the day their response should only be one thing.

War.

240 Jack would have been a european in the 1930's and early 1940's.

241 @ Lex: It's easy to say he was contained, after the fact, but he really did need to go. More to the point, something had to be done to try to foment freedom in that region. I don't think the war has led to ideal results and I think a lot of mistakes were made... which isn't that unusual. But it's sad that Bush won't get credit for the 9/11s he managed to prevent. What's clear is that Saddam broke the terms of the cease fire. You'll get no argument from me about the criminality and despotism Saddam represented. But the crucial issue went beyond that--that is, was he enough of a concern to justify a full-scale war effort? This idea that we had to "foment freedom in the region" is the essence of the pro-war calculation that I simply reject. I, and many people on the right, can't abide the loss of life and treasure for the promotion of democracy. And if you remove the Saddam-WMD hysteria, the argument for war basically amounted to a proactive effort to begin democratizing the region. Rejecting the Bush gamble of '02 wouldn't have precluded us from ever taking action. We could have continued to monitor the situation and if Saddam ever had been as brazen, dangerous, and unstable as Iran and North Korea have been just over the past year, he would have been ripe for real regime change. I'm not convinced Saddam was that ambitious, and ultimately suicidal, a player.

242 If china is willing to move mountains do you think they do not have a capable army?

Posted by: td at May 20, 2010 09:31 AM (w7TI0)

 

You're talking apples and oranges. Your question is neither logical, nor rational. China built a huge dam and hydroelectric facility on the Yangtze, too. But it has no bearing on the military leadership of the Chicoms.

BTW, building submarine pens in the sides of mountains is nothing new. Scandanavian countries and Great Britain and even New Zealand were building submarine bases in the sides of mountains on their fiords as protection against nuclear strikes 50 years ago. (Never mind that your statement on that issue wasn't accurate.)

243 Just watched the actual video from the presser -- they recovered the torpedo parts. Note to NOrks, next time you try this shit you need to come out and play in the blue water, hard to be sneaky in shallow water.

244 I will admit you are more informed on these issues. I was only reporting what I saw and remember. Your following posts were somewhat impressive.

245

#248 - Not true. There are two field artillary brigades which have tactical nukes to blunt a mass incursion over the border; one USA and one ROK. (And the ROKs will use them to preserve their freedom.)

To which I want to add that there is a post above that stated that  the terrain in North Korea isn't suitable for being targets for tactical nukes when its boggy, but only when it is frozen. That is a bizarre assertion. Tactical nuke explosions are air bursts, not explosions on the ground. The terrain is irrelevant. More bullshit from my loony, little pet, babbling Elmo. I didn't bother to read most of his tripe. I'm sure that I would have found more of his loony bullshit if I had done so.

246 I have decided to have a Encounter Group on Friday about this situation. We will discuss the problem and why the US is a fault. Then we will break out into groups to place blame on Bush, Cheney, Tea Party Groups, BP, and the Insurance Companies. Then all the groups will give me recommendations for higher taxes so that I can give to NK for more weapons to attack ROK.  See I have solved another problem within only a few hours. Thank You ...Thank You.... I am great and I am good.

247 God Damn Fucking Bush Fucked this up. That Fucking moron should be fucking impeached again for the fucking Lewinsky scadel that he perpertrated on fucking clinton. That's my fucking position.....

248 Just send me in, I'll settle their hash just like I did with the dinks.

249 #248 - Not true. There are two field artillary brigades which have tactical nukes to blunt a mass incursion over the border; one USA and one ROK. (And the ROKs will use them to preserve their freedom.)

You are FOS. ALL remaining U.S. nukes were withdrawn from SK in 1991 under the first Bush.

250 #260 - I won't argue with you. My delusions trump all. Now y'all have a nice day, ya hear.

251 IP = 116.21.4.235

252

The RoKs need to send a team of highly trained Naval special forces into NorK sub base and kill a few of their heathen brothers there.

Either that or wait to catch a NorK ship at sea and let it hold a torpedo.

RoK won't though they are to rich and comfortable and most likely feel that's better than being victorious and stuck rebuilding everything north of the DMZ as well as what would be left of Seoul.

The NorKs then emboldened will strike again, and again until one strikes goes to far.

After that is anybody's guess.

253 ROK foreign minister says they have enough evidence to take to the UNSC.

And the UNSC is going to do what, exactly, about this besides diddly squat?

A clue for the "ROK" people: When you discover a NorK sub, ship, or plane too close for comfort, destroy it.

254

um, not finding any WMDs in Iraq?

Tens of thousands of gassed Kurds could not be reached for comment.

255

Snapdragon's got an 18 inch dildo up her ass. And she likes it....

She's really a she? Oh, how she deserves an overnight stay in one of Saddam's "rape rooms"....

256 I don't think China would actually send troops in, but their intervention could occur and be terrible.  Or they could take the opportunity to deal with Taiwan.

Which would be ironic as it was the advent of the Korean War that stopped them from taking Taiwan the first time. The armies trained and positioned for the assault on Taiwan were the ones that were sent to Korea and subsequently destroyed.

257 "To which I want to add that there is a post above that stated that  the terrain in North Korea isn't suitable for being targets for tactical nukes when its boggy, but only when it is frozen"

No, that's not what I said at all.  And of course you understand that.  It's just difficult to move mechanized units through unless it's winter.  The ground is not capable of supporting tanks in large numbers unless it's frozen.  The highways have large concrete tank traps.

This is something every private over there understands.  Natasha can't even spell 'artillery' and clearly has no idea what he's talking about.  Oh, what a shock, he tried to burn a strawman.  Why would we use tactical nukes to blow up a target like a valley road anyway?  That's stupid.  I wouldn't have a major personal problem with one being used to blow up a legit target, such as a headquarters or a reinforced emplacement.  But the political and diplomatic weight such a weapon would carry is damn extreme.   We have developed conventional weapons with similar capabilities specifically because of this.

I'm pretty sure everyone gets my point: Obama is obviously not going to nuke anyone.

Jack, when you say "I, and many people on the right, can't abide the loss of life and treasure for the promotion of democracy."  We have a legitimate difference of opinion over this.  I wish the world was such that we didn't have to lose precious US Military lives to attempt to save another nation that has more than a few ungrateful bastards, but we live in a world where places like Iraq pose a threat to our security.  I am glad we have a volunteer force, because if we were drafting people to go promote democracy in Iraq is would be harder for me to accept (I probably still would, but not enthusiastically).  I think that's part of what changed on 9/11 in my views, but I certainly understand your legit opinion.

"It's not as if some future contingency won't necessitate our return to Iraq despite the glorious success of the surge anyway."
I feel it's our responsibility to make sure we do not waste the effort already made, and I do worry that we're failing.  But consider South Korea.  Ten years after the Korean war, the insurgency was just dying out.  It had a lot of political problems domestically.  It took decades longer before it was an advanced nation, but now the difference is obvious. 

In Iraq, there will be pressure to improve the nation politically.  I thought, going in, it would take over a generation before we really saw Iraq blossom.  I honestly just don't see any other way to 'win' the GWOT than this path.  It's painfully slow and a lot of bastards are using religion to get in the way of progress in Iraq, but I have high hopes anyway.

258 Lex, there are a few nuke worthy targets in NOrk land -- some deep command bunkers and that dam - but Natasha is a clown, best ignored.

259 Jean, you're 100% right.  Of course, there is this issue about Obama being the person who would have to use them right now, which you obviously realize is preposterous.

I should note that the South Korean military is under our command if hostilities flare back up, so it really is up to Obama.  That puts legitimate military targets like the damn out of range, but we have developed a very powerful bunker buster since Obama took office.  We even modified at least a couple of the B-2 Spirits to be capable of deploying it.  That's enough to handle the best North Korean facilities I'm aware of (frankly, I don't know anything you don't).

I understand that tactical nukes do not pose the same environmental problems 'conventional' or strategic nukes do, but that's probably besides the point.  We won't use them unless we have no alternative, and we do have an alternative weapon.

The real issue with North Korea probably is simply the sheer number of targets.  We would cluster bomb their known artillery spots with rockets, take out communication and fuel and bunkers, but they just have too many targets and would get thousands of rounds down range.  I'm not worried about their more hardened bunkers in various mountains.  I'm worried about Stalin's organ and the many other cheap and plentiful weapons systems that have an incredibly easy to hit target south of the border.

260 261 #260 - I won't argue with you. My delusions trump all. Now y'all have a nice day, ya hear.

Posted by: Natasha & Boris at May 20, 2010 11:07 AM (ITzbJ)

 

Not my post. But just what I would expect from two creepy losers on Ace's crew, who pull sleazy stunts like that to compensate for their inadequacies.

261 no.one

262 The question that comes to mind is where or how did the dictatorship, DPRK, come up with their name, Democratic Peoples' Republic Of Korea? Odd.

263

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