1 Jindal in that group is a big disappointment.

2 Gabe, you're pretty en fuego for 4:15 Pacific time.

3 ...Pawlenty, too for what it's worth.

4 That's nice and all, Gabe, but where does the "No ******" crowd stand on this? After all, they're the coming thing in politics!

5 Is Jindal throwing his hat in the ring?

6 Romney didn't come out against it until the real compromise deal was scuttled and the Senate added all the pork to it. I don't know exactly at what time the others chimed in.

I just remember Romney's rhetoric came AFTER the Senate had already voted for cloture and it was a done deal so his opposition was freaking meaningless.

Yeah, he's a candidate for the "No Labels" crowd.

7 4 That's nice and all, Gabe, but where does the "No ******" crowd stand on this? After all, they're the coming thing in politics!

Posted by: ya2daup at December 15, 2010 07:17 AM (yRrAd)

That's right!!!...and don't forget -- respect my tan!

8 Jindal in that group is a big disappointment.

Posted by: billygoat at December 15, 2010 07:14 AM (5qJM5)

From what the LA folks here have been saying, Jindal has become a "big disappointment" all over. I have already crossed him off my list.

9 Sure, Vic, Romney's only opposing it because of the pork. ::eyeroll::

I repeat: a heretic is someone who shares almost all your beliefs. Burn him.

10 Newt Scozzafava's for it?  I'm against.

11 I repeat: a heretic is someone who shares almost all your beliefs. Burn him.

It's not how you are alike; it is how you are different that's important.

12 Sure, Vic, Romney's only opposing it because of the pork. ::eyeroll::

I repeat: a heretic is someone who shares almost all your beliefs. Burn him.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at December 15, 2010 07:25 AM (XVaFd)

No Gabe, My point is Romney doesn't oppose it at all. His rhetoric came after it was already a done deal. He is the king of meaningless rhetoric for what he expects the base to want to hear. 

I don't agree with him in anything because he doesn't believe in anything. If you look at his actual record as gov of MA he was just as bad, if not worse, than Shuckabee. However, that may be because he thought that was what MA wanted to have and hear.

He is a used car salesman.

13 Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) says that, as long as Democrats don't screw it up too much, the tax cut compromise plan set to work its way through Congress this week is the best law that the federal government has enacted since President Obama took office.

"We have a Democratic Congress that doesn't leave office until January 5, taxes are set to go up on January 1 without this agreement, and once Washington raises taxes, it almost never cuts them," Jindal told the National Review. "If we can get this through the Democratic Congress, even with its flaws, it will be the best legislation they've passed in two years,"

Like just about everyone else who's seen it -- including Obama himself -- Jindal takes issue with some parts of the compromise. Still, the not-running-for-president-just-ask-him Gov. of Louisana seems to have a higher opinion of the compromise, which would add more than $900 billion to the deficit, than Obama's critics on the left do.

"This isn't a perfect deal and it's not what I would have written, but after what we have seen the past two years with more government and more taxes, this deal is a big relief in the nick of time," Jindal said.

In the end, Jindal says the deal ls about as good as Republicans could hope for before they take over the House next year.

TPM


Giddy with delight, isn't he?

14 Stung by conservative sniping at his past support for health-care reform in Massachusetts, former Gov. Mitt Romney yesterday staked out a far-right position on the massive tax-compromise bill hammered out between Republican leaders and President Obama.

Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, said Romney has to “establish his street cred” with conservatives, especially since many on the right have been lambasting Romney for once signing a universal health-care bill in Massachusetts that was later used as a model for “Obamacare” at the federal level.

“He’s doing this partly to counterbalance the perception of Romneycare,” said Sabato.

BostonHerald



Cause, meet effect.

15 Could someone send me the CV of that nice McKinnon fellow? Now there's a winner.

16

From what the LA folks here have been saying, Jindal has become a "big disappointment" all over. I have already crossed him off my list.

Posted by: Vic at December 15, 2010 07:24 AM (e4sSD)

Yeah...too bad.  And Pawlenty's living up to his MN roots.

17

He is a used car salesman.

Posted by: Vic at December 15, 2010 07:31 AM (e4sSD)

He needs to change his moniker -- look what its done for us!

18 My point is Romney doesn't oppose it at all. His rhetoric came after it was already a done deal.

What have you been smoking? It was always a done deal in the Senate. The Senate was never in question, the sticking point has been the House (and not among House GOP, but from House Dems).

Anyway, if you want to get technical, Romney's op-ed was published a few hours before the Tuesday vote (and obviously written well before that).

We get it, Vic, you don't like Romney. But this is pathetic re-writing of the sequence of events -- and re-weighing their significance -- simply so you can portray a candidate you don't like as a bad guy even when he's on your side of the tax cut deal.

19 BTW - Thune is for it, not agin it:

While acknowledging that the Obama-McConnell tax compromise is far from “perfect,” Sen. John Thune (R., S.D.) announced on the floor of the Senate moments ago that he would support it.

“It’s easy to stand on the sidelines and criticize this proposal, and maybe it’s political expedient,” Thune said, arguing, in what could be interpreted as a thinly-veiled criticism of Sen. Jim DeMint (R., S.C.) and others who have expressed strong reservations about the compromise, that “advocating against this tax proposal is advocating for a tax increase.”

Thune said he’d prefer to see a bill written in January, after a newly strengthened Republican caucus is sworn in, but that that was a “luxury” the Senate doesn’t have.

Citing recent polls showing large majorities of American supporting tax deal, Thune called it an “empirical fact” that marginal rate cuts generate not less, but more revenue. He said that he would go forward with a suspension motion to consider his amendment to pay for the compromise’s unemployment benefits extension with unspent discretionary funds, though he admitted it would likely fail.

NRO

20 What have you been smoking? It was always a done deal in the Senate.

Come on Gabe, are you turning into a Romneybot? It may have been a "done deal" in the backroom rumor dept but the others came out against it while the debate still concerned the House.

As I said, his opposition came AFTER the vote. Or at least, he timed it so that it would not hit the press until after the vote.

So what are you smoking?

21 I frankly don't understand all the "outrage" at a compromise.  That's what politics is, folks.  You get some of what you want, they get some of what they want.  Both sides here have the power to squelch the deal entirely.

To think the Dems will completely cave on every bill over the next few years is, well, naive..

22 And BTW, I know nothing about Thune.

23 Pence came out against it yesterday.
Posted by: lowandslow


Yeah, Pence finally got in the game:

Representative Mike Pence of Indiana, the departing chairman of the House Republican Conference, told a conservative radio show host Tuesday that “I will not vote for this tax deal when it comes to the floor of the House of Representatives."

24 I frankly don't understand all the "outrage" at a compromise.  That's what politics is, folks.  You get some of what you want, they get some of what they want.  Both sides here have the power to squelch the deal entirely.

The time for compromise on this shit is long gone. They are well on the way to destroying the country. Is it compromise when a criminal points a gun at you and says "I'm going to kill you now or I may compromise and kill you 5 minutes from now".

And besides that, a "compromise with Obama" had been worked out. The Dems in congress immediately repudiated it, and that was planned from the beginning.

"Compromise" with a Democrat means "Republicans do what we want".

FUCK.THEM.AND.THEIR.HORSE

25

I frankly don't understand all the "outrage" at a compromise.  That's what politics is, folks.

Sorry--not falling for it.  If the tax portions of this monstrosity stood alone, I'd be for it--that would be a compromise.  The problem is the Congress (yeah, pretty much everyone) reverted to form and packed it to the rim with extraneous BS.  Enough.

26 True and Pence came out against it yesterday.

Another disappointment. This thing was essentially over when the vote for cloture went down.

27 i have ALWAYS been against it.  Mike Pence is my man, so far.

28 Also for it, the next President of the United States....


Ron Paul: Pro, in an interview with Andrew Napolitano.

I certainly want to support the tax extension... they may put enough stuff in there to make me reconsider, but right now I would not want to participate in raising taxes on people.


via Weigel at Slate, so may or may not be accurate.

29 Also for it, the next President of the United States....

Please tell me that was a joke.

30 When you have a Dem President and Senate you're  going to get a shit sandwich.

That argument is not logical. If we have the House and more Senators, why in the hell would we not be able to get a better deal next year?

In fact, if the House Republicans grow some political balls (I know big if) they can force a deal on the commies next year.

That is what we MUST do.

31 this is class warfare people......the tax rates.....all of them should be permanent and cut further...there should be no death tax period....washington needs to stop spending money when they don't have it and social programs are not a reason to raise taxes to get it.... EXCELLENCE, BECAUSE GOOD IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.... remember we smooshed them.....there was a wave......

32 NO MORE GO ALONG TO GET ALONG!

33 Mike Pence is a firm no:

http://tinyurl.com/38vcnew

34

my prediction:  the winner will be whoever supports Terry Lakin in his court martial

kangaroo court:  not allowed discovery, not allowed witnesses

travesty

military members publicly supporting Lakin:  McInerney, Vallely, Kerchner, Hollister, Barnett

35 Just as soon as we pass this spending omnibus, we must get down to cutting spending.

36 Just as soon as we pass this spending omnibus, we must get down to cutting spending.

Posted by: kay bailey hutchison at December 15, 2010 08:03 AM (H+LJc)

Link???  That is some serious WTF words there kay.

37 Please tell me that was a joke.
Posted by: Circa



Of course,  But then again Obama got elected, so anything is possible at this point.

38 That argument is not logical. If we have the House and more Senators, why in the hell would we not be able to get a better deal next year?

In fact, if the House Republicans grow some political balls (I know big if) they can force a deal on the commies next year.

That is what we MUST do.
Posted by: Vic
===============

Gee, what if the Dems grow some balls, Vic?

I appreciate you being passionate about YOUR views, but you completely dismiss THEIR passion about THEIR views.

And just because we have the House next year, changes nothing.  THEY have the Senate and the presidency.  "A better deal" is simply whatever compromise we can come to with them.  There is no "forcing".  There is a president with a veto pen.  Stop being foolish and acting like a 2 year old who wants just one more piece of candy.

39 Jindal had Obungler's ass hanging out a mile over the oil spill. Jindal dribbled and head faked in the general vicinity of the basket but he never took the shot.

Romney is not a leader.  If he want to be the candidate, he is going to have to show me he can take the lead.  You know, like the neglgible snowbilly barbie Sarah Palin does.

40 FUCK.THEM.AND.THEIR.HORSE
Posted by: Vic


I hate to say this, but right now the only thing that can save our country is -- fear itself.  Our government is bankrupt, its deficit is insurmountable, and at both the federal and state levels, we've run up more debt than can possibly be repaid.  This isn't a political thing; it's a numbers thing.  Either everything I've ever learned about math and economics is wrong, or we're on the verge of going down.  The only possible way to come through safely -- and even so, the odds are against us -- will be to frighten ourselves so badly that we'll be willing to do things that in normal times we simply could not imagine doing. -- Herbert E. Meyer

41 Why would the Dems drop a big deuce on us with this omnibus bill? They do stupid shit.

Not sure what your point is there, and besides, we werre talking about the "tax deal".

The Dems and the President don't have any reason to put together a better deal, I'm surprised we got this deal.

We got the deal because everyone in the country said it was insane to raise taxes and the Dems were going to get murdered on this issue.

Since they were going to have to cave they worked out this shit sandwich where Obama would make a deal and the "Lucy Congress" would snatch the football away.

Next year it will not be a "Lucy Congress".

As for the MFM, we MUST quit worrying about what they will do. They will NEVER be on the side of conservatives, NEVER.

Some Republicans have figured out how to work around those SOBs and the public has finally learned that the MFM is a bunch of Dem liars anyway. They shot their wad in 2008.

42 Sorry--not falling for it.  If the tax portions of this monstrosity stood alone, I'd be for it--that would be a compromise. --Circa

It would be common ground.

Getting a vote for common ground would require the DEMOCRATS to compromise, to stop spending just long enough to cast a ballot.

43 Those are not run of the mill typos. Those are 5AM no coffee yet typos. 

44 I appreciate you being passionate about YOUR views, but you completely dismiss THEIR passion about THEIR views.

And exactly what are those view outside of the demogogic platitudes about the rich?  There is not one iota of sincerity from the President or his party's hacks on the Hill.  I defy you to demonstrate otherwise given the track record of those people over the past decade.  It's not exactly a shining ball of consistency...on anything.   

45 Gee, what if the Dems grow some balls, Vic?

A lot of us have been sating this for a long time now, and even Boner has come around.

Individual Department budgets are the answer. The Constitution says that ALL spending bills must originate in the House. Recent congresses have reversed that which is unconstitutional. The Hose MUST take it back.

For example, the BS ethanol subsidies in the "tax deal". All the House has to do is pass a budget bill that zero's out money for all ethanol subsidies within the Dept of Agriculture. The Senate and President can take it or leave it. If they don't like it, tough, Dept of Agriculture gets zero. (Which is what I would do anyway)

Oh and one final thought, Dems have no balls. They just cheat, lie, and steal. When confronted they will probably fold like the Repukes have been doing for the last 100 years.

46

Once again, teh Palin, leading the way.

Gabe, Vic isn't the only one to see Plastic Mitt® as a Ken doll who looks good but does nothing of substance.  Yesterday, Cavuto had a national Tea Party prez on and flat out said, "Why does the Tea Party have no love for Mitt Romney?"  Frankly, I was surprised FOX would be that blunt as they seem to be in his corner.

When it came to the election, he'd endorse someone only after Palin and the more conservative folk did.  He's a running joke.  He refuses to admit Romneycare was a bust and will defend it to his dying breath.  The first five minutes of any interview have him defending it and himself and blaming it on all the changes that were made to it that he had nothing to do with.  When asked if he would repeal ObamaCare, he said NO, he'd change parts of it.  He's part of the Beltway Crew and has that "next in line" sign on him.  Bush Sr. and Bar say he's their candidate (w/Jeb being the veep for that endorsement).  Wonder if Mitt'd change the part of ZeroCare that gives the gubmint a percentage of your home sale to fund it?

 

47

Interestingly enough, of the people that you mentioned, your three so-called "waffers" have the best credentials and they are the most likely to be electable if, IF they run for POTUS in 2012, imho.

By being "waffers" at this stage, they're showing good judgment on this issue, too, not too surprisingly. (Mitch Daniels is the most impressive, imho.)

48 they took our money and spent it on what they deemed was "too big to fail" well guess what? nothing is too big to fail....the banks should have received nothing...the insurance companies should have received nothing...the car companies should have received nothing...fannie and freddie should have been shut down and people should have gone to jail...THEY WERE WRONG AND WE HAVE TO COMPROMISE? I DON'T COMPROMISE WITH MY KIDS WHEN THEY ARE ON RESTRICTION.......

49 Here's our $1.1 Trillion spending bill.. You don't like it?

GO FUCK YOURSELVES.

50 Frankly, I was surprised FOX would be that blunt as they seem to be in his corner.

It wasn't Fox, it was Cavuto. He is somewhat conservative on about the same level as Megyn.

51 52

That would've made a lot more sense, had it been posted by Harry Reid.

52 "Nominate me, I am electable."


Just fucking dazzling. 

53 Well, how about some more serious WTF with these assholes we are supposed to "compromise" with.

Reid threatens to keep Senate/Congress in session until next year

Really people we compromise with people like him?

He is bound and determined to get his commie agenda through this lame duck session no matter what.

54 One other thing that we all should keep in mind on these economic issues. This is no longer just a matter of partisan politics. We have reached a point where the very survival of the country is at stake (i will not say Republic, we lost that 150 years ago).

With the survival of the country at stake gaining losing an edge in "electability" is no longer an issue. We need to start doing what is right, not what is perceived to be what is "popular". 

55 "Do what I want or I will ruin your Christmas."

God.  That is just crying out for,  "Bring it, bitch."

Which of the people named above as a potential candidate has the balls to call him out?  I can only think of one. 

56 So what are you smoking?
Posted by: Vic

Mitt primary '08 season had the young-enough to be gut burning relevant, proven by good-hair and the "saving the Olympics" from extinction PC economic-genius fan base that included Malkin, Allahpundit, Ed Morrissey, Gabe.  With Gabe, it's all about image. Image and packaging can promise anything, content be damned.

57

vic, you are right.  we can hold their feet to the fire now.  and while they may have the votes to push all these extra spending measures through now, at least we can take a stand & dare them to pass them.

remember, alot of Republican members of Congress up there now were re-elected by bashing Dems over back-room deals, Obamacare, spending, etc.  This may be a lame duck Congress, but many of those Congressman just came thru conservative fire to win.  they need to act like it.

58 All this arguing over this year vs. Jan.  In Jan. the R-contnrolled House passes a bill exaqctly like the one Obama & McConnell worked out with NOTHING else in it.  How the hell could Odipshit veto it if it got through the Senate - and I think it would.

59 The Republicans need to know they are being watched and graded and we aren't through firing people yet.

60 Well, how about this then;

Left leaning Gallop has this lame *uck congress approval rating as worst in its history

If the Republicans fight them tooth and nail on the REST of their agenda they can win. As I said earlier, it is too late for the "Tax Rawdeal". Now we must fight over the rest.

Particularly the trillion dollar budget-busting pork deal.

61 As legislation in Washington goes, Jindal's actually got some good points.  Based on what we're used to, this isn't bad.  The problem is, the Nov. 2nd elections should have changed what were "used to" as being the baseline for legislation.  The repubs don't appear to have had the full paradigm shift that the voters intended. 

So, even though they are technically correct, those who say it's not perfect but it's not bad, just sound like typical go-along to get-along politicians.  And, it has become clear that the R's gave too much leverage up to the libs.  They could have presented a clean, take it or leave it, tax rates only bill to Obama and then gone to the people and said, "These are the types of no-bs bills you've demanded, here's how we're going to do business."  Instead, we get the same drek.  So in that sense, Obama did win.

Maybe they will get a bigger sac after Jan, but color me doubtful. 

The omnibus bill, as others have stated, is the true hill to die on. 

62 AMEN SURFER DOC

63 Particularly the trillion dollar budget-busting pork deal.

/greenback printing press bonfire to keep the hobos warm, for the children.

64 The Republicans need to know they are being watched and graded and we aren't through firing people yet.

Posted by: SurferDoc at December 15, 2010 08:33 AM (o3bYL)

If they didn't get the message after Nov., then they're either unteachable or they just don't shive a git....maybe both.

65 As far as I can tell, it is still business as usual in DC.  They have learned little if anything from November.  I guess they are going to need to be smacked across the nose with a rolled up newspaper next time.

66 Why is John R. "Rapestache" Bolton absent from this list? He has said publicly that he is exploring a presidential run.

67 yep, Hammer, the omnibus bill is the one to scream about.  Get to the phones!

68 Unless the GOP has a plan for how to keep my taxes going up Jan 1st, I am not going to use opposition of (or support for) the tax compromise as a PURITY! litmus test.  Maybe some of you can handle your taxes going up just to make a point, but we can't. 

69 Maybe some of you can handle your taxes going up just to make a point, but we can't. 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 08:47 AM (IDL9N)

All that is required is to make the old rates retroactive to Jan 1. All of the opponents are already saying this.

70

Release the hounds.

71 All that is required is to make the old rates retroactive to Jan 1. All of the opponents are already saying this.

And they know that they can get the Senate to pass it next year and Obama to sign it? 

72 ynot...i can't handle my taxes going up and the small business my family runs cannot handle our taxes going up...but that is how they get you....you compromise for something out of fear....they use fear to get you...i'm not afraid anymore....this is the hill people.......if you cave in now...well you enable the enemy

73 only in my reading comprehension skills.

Never a strong suit in the Moron Class.

74

Gunman who shot up Florida school board meeting spray paints V for Vendetta on the board room wall. Lists Media Matters and IndyMedia as links on his Facebook account. http://tinyurl.com/272ankr

75

http://tinyurl.com/272ankr

 

76 If Romney wants to be taken as a serious contender he'd better come out and state (finally) his opinion on Obamacare.

77 Anyone know where John Bolton stands on this?  I know he's more a foreign policy guy (for obvious reasons), but there've been enough candidacy rumblings from his direction that I'd like to get his take on a domestic issue like this.

78 And they know that they can get the Senate to pass it next year and Obama to sign it? 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 08:53 AM (IDL9N)

As I said, they can if the grow some.

79 HotAir is reporting Paul Ryan is for it. 

80 As I said, they can if the grow some.

We won't have an veto proof majority. 

81 Too bad a mustache makes a guy un-electable.

82 All that is required is to make the old rates retroactive to Jan 1. All of the opponents are already saying this. Posted by: Vic at December 15, 2010 08:50 AM (e4sSD The number of times that I have heard it doesn't make it more true. Ever heard of witholding? Even if you later get it back, the gov't is still going to take a bigger slice of your pie starting Jan.1. Even if it only lasts for a month, the impact will be felt. Beyond that, the uncertainty will cause a lot of people to cash-out and realize capital gains by the end of this year.

83 If Romney wants to be taken as a serious contender he'd better come out and state (finally) his opinion on Obamacare.

Posted by: dvdivx at December 15, 2010 08:56 AM (rBW4C)

He is currently unrecoverable by rhetoric alone. More rhetoric can not undo his record and previous rhetoric. He needs to go in for another office and demonstrate some conservative cred. Healthscam is not the only issue he has a left wing record on. Gun control is another.

84 83...he is...and HA asks the obvious question...how many mulligans does The Fiscal One^R get?  Tarp, AIG bailout, this. 

85

 If Romney wants to be taken as a serious contender he'd better come out and state (finally) his opinion on Obamacare.

I think his "no" on repealing ObamaCare said it all.

86 We won't have an veto proof majority. 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 09:00 AM (IDL9N)

Please go back and read post 48.

87 Once again: if Congress after Jan passes the exact agreement terms that OShitHead and McConnell agree to, how can OShitHead veto it.  It would be the most blatant lie in history.

88 Powerline says Bolton is fer it:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/12/027917.php

89 “We’re not through. Congress ends on Jan. 4,” said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Nevada Democrat.

90 91 Once again: if Congress after Jan passes the exact agreement terms that OShitHead and McConnell agree to, how can OShitHead veto it. It would be the most blatant lie in history. Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at December 15, 2010 09:04 AM (jbCcb Have you been watching this administration? He claims that republicans are FOR raising taxes on the middle class (among a whole lot of whoppers)

91 We won't have an veto proof majority. 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 09:00 AM (IDL9N)

True, but as Rush says, the dhims KNOW they'll be the ones the public blames for raising taxes if this fails.  Election season isn't far off for the ones who wern't up this time.  It's a game of chicken, and the dhims have the most susceptibility to the blink.

92 Too bad a mustache makes a guy un-electable.

Posted by: SurferDoc

So much for Hillary Clinton in 2012....

93 91 Sukie: As far as I can tell after many years of observation, there is no penalty for a Democrat lying. None.

94

So much for Hillary Clinton in 2012....

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at December 15, 2010 09:06 AM (yea0z)

But I'd bet my eye teeth that the 'stache has better ankles.

95 96 Hillary has a mustache and a 'beard'?

96 99 96 Hillary has a mustache and a 'beard'? Posted by: SurferDoc at December 15, 2010 09:08 AM (o3bYL) Two beards, actually (NTTAWWT)

97 Add Paul RINO Ryan to the yes list

98

A little more on John Bolton's opinion, from NRO (this is as of 12/13):

John Bolton writes:

I would vote “yes” on the original deal as negotiated between Senator McConnell and President Obama.  We should recognize the deal, however, only as a temporary compromise.  It solves little or nothing from further political debate, as President Obama has already pledged from his side.  Starting January 1,everything is back in play.

If my arm were twisted hard enough, I would vote for the bill introduced by Senator Reid, which the Wall Street Journal rightly says is “becoming a favor festival.”  I would not accept any further changes from anyone, except removing whatever of the Reid add-ons it might be possible to eliminate through whatever creative parliamentary maneuvers are available.

There are two critical points here.

First is a matter of high principle.  The Republican policy objective on taxes, starting now, should be to move toward a flat-tax approach, lowering tax rates and eliminating or simplifying the structure of deductions, exclusions, exemptions, and credits that have built up over the years, largely to mitigate against progressive marginal tax rates or to benefit special interests with sufficient political clout.

That means, Iowa caucuses or no Iowa caucuses, that the “Hawkeye Handout” and its ilk have to be disappeared.  The ultimate aim of tax policy should be to raise the necessary revenues for government with the minimal possible distortion of individual and business decision making.  Tax policy should not be social policy, and it should minimize or eliminate the distortions in productive economic activity that are endemic under our current tax laws.

Second is a matter of practical politics.  Senator McConnell and all Congressional Republicans must set a precedent now that a deal with President Obama is also a deal with his entire party.  What Senator Reid has already done, and what Speaker Pelosi longs to do, is to get second and third bites at our apple.  We should tell them unambiguously:  Forget it!  If Congressional Republicans succumb to serial negotiations now or during the next two years, they will be making a serious error.

 

99 @83 Paul Ryan was on Bill Bennett's morning show yesterday talking about why he is supporting the tax deal. Huge disappointment.

100

FEED ME! FEED ME GODDAM$ IT!

I MUST BE FED NOW.

101 Palin first.  Told you so.

102 And just because we have the House next year, changes nothing.  THEY have the Senate and the presidency.  "A better deal" is simply whatever compromise we can come to with them.  There is no "forcing".  There is a president with a veto pen.  Stop being foolish and acting like a 2 year old who wants just one more piece of candy.

Posted by: Chitown Jerry

 

There is a President with a veto pen, a desire to be re-elected, and a talent for stabbing his Congressional allies in the back. If these go to him piece by piece, either he defunds the departments by not signing off or he agrees to the bills. This would also avoid the manufactured spectacle of a government shut down.

 

This requires more work, and far greater will. The ruling class would rather set up such last minute, 'we have to save the current tax rates' crises and then ram through the pork. Demeaning people who call them on it doesn't help us; only those ruling elites.

103 He has, in the early stages of his trial, been denied discovery, and the presentation of witnesses, evidence, or argument in defense of his position.

104

 We should tell them unambiguously:  Forget it!  If Congressional Republicans succumb to serial negotiations now or during the next two years, they will be making a serious error.

I want to marry John Bolton.

 

 

105 The one thing that there is a mandate for is cleaner, less convoluted legislative bills.  That's where the R's had the libs on this. 

Want to spend $50m on a project, great, bring it up separately.  Want to have a $1b ethanol subsidy, awesome...put it in a separate bill.  This bill is a tax rates vote, no more, no less.

The public wants that type of process and our side had a great chance to give it to them...and not so much.

106 Frankly, I'm not impressed by this game of chicken. 

I would rather the Republicans throw the millionaires under the bus in exchange for getting rid of the pork in the tax compromise than have them risk tax increases for 95% of the country.  Call me a RINO or call me someone who is sick of elected officials who don't give a rat's ass about me. 

107 I would rather the Republicans throw the millionaires under the bus in exchange for getting rid of the pork in the tax compromise than have them risk tax increases for 95% of the country.  Call me a RINO or call me someone who is sick of elected officials who don't give a rat's ass about me. 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 09:29 AM (IDL9N)

Problem is, they'd be throwing the small business owners under the bus too.  

Ack...it's a friggin' mess.

108 Frankly, I'm not impressed by this game of chicken. 

I would rather the Republicans throw the millionaires under the bus in exchange for getting rid of the pork in the tax compromise than have them risk tax increases for 95% of the country.  Call me a RINO or call me someone who is sick of elected officials who don't give a rat's ass about me. 

Posted by: Y-not

1. Even if we put every millionare against the wall, shot them and their families, and seized every item and every dollar they own, it wouldn't puy a dent in the deficit. So much for that.

2.No one can give any kind of assurance that even if we did step #1, then pork would magically disappear.

109 As my dad used to say, 'Even an asshole finds a gerbil every once in awhile':

From Peanut Research to Pig Waste, Pork-Laden Spending Bill Called a ‘Monstrosity'

In a stinging speech on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain listed some of earmarks incorporated into a bill which he said had been “written by a handful of senators who happen to be members of the Appropriations Committee.” The bill reached his office just after noon on Tuesday.

John McCain

Ever heard of endingspending dot com?

110

Duh, I'm like for it, you know.

Have you seen what a dozen donuts cost today!

111

Loose the Pork, stall, stall, stall.

Do it next session.

112

Is there any way to craft another stand alone reolution that contains just the extension of the current tax rates?

 

Pence can introduce it in the House, and invite Obama to stand behind his original bargain. Or else he can get Bubba to sign it while he's there. And since Reid already offered to keep the Senate in session through Christmas, there'd be time to get it to them.

113

1. Even if we put every millionare against the wall, shot them and their families, and seized every item and every dollar they own, it wouldn't puy a dent in the deficit. So much for that.

2.No one can give any kind of assurance that even if we did step #1, then pork would magically disappear.

---

I'm not suggesting it as a mechanism for reducing the deficit.  I'm suggesting it as the way to get the Dems to agree to a bill without the pork.  The pork, such as the ethanol subsidies, got tossed in when the Dems rebelled against the deal Obama struck with the Republicans. 

I can't be so sanguine about our ability to get the tax increases removed retroactively next year with Obama in the WH and the Dems still controlling the Senate.  Talking about making a stand with only the House in our hands and when so many in the country are hurting rings hollow to me. 

114

SurferDoc sez - "Which of the people named above as a potential candidate has the balls to call him out?  I can only think of one."

A variation: which of these potential 2012 candidates, if elected, would issue a stern warning of a veto if the bill came out encrusted with pork, and then would make good on the threat if it did.

Yeah, same one.

115 Here is a list of the biggest pork shovelers. All members of the "I didn't learn a Goddam thing in the last election" club.

116

1. Even if we put every millionare against the wall, shot them and their families, and seized every item and every dollar they own, it wouldn't puy a dent in the deficit. So much for that.

2.No one can give any kind of assurance that even if we did step #1, then pork would magically disappear.

---

I'm not suggesting it as a mechanism for reducing the deficit.  I'm suggesting it as the way to get the Dems to agree to a bill without the pork.  The pork, such as the ethanol subsidies, got tossed in when the Dems rebelled against the deal Obama struck with the Republicans. 

I can't be so sanguine about our ability to get the tax increases removed retroactively next year with Obama in the WH and the Dems still controlling the Senate.  Talking about making a stand with only the House in our hands and when so many in the country are hurting rings hollow to me. 

Posted by: Y-not

 

See point #2. There is no way that anyone can state that pork would dissappear if we put millionares against the wall. The problem stems from the fact that things can be tacked on, hidden and glossed over. Victimizing millionaries isn't going to have any magical effect.

117 121 Here is a list of the biggest pork shovelers.

Why would he list the number of earmarks instead of the dollar totals?  Not very helpful as is. 

118 This goes along with the tax deal.  Did you know that NJ residents receive $550/A WEEK in unemployment benefits?

New Jersey's jobless benefits are too generous and should be reduced, a Republican leader in the Assembly told business owners today.

Residents collecting $550 per week have little incentive to look for a job, Assembly Minority Leader Alex DeCroce told the Business and Industry Association. He said cutting benefits is one way to prop up the unemployment fund, which is now $1.7 billion in the red to the federal government.

"I'm one of the few people here ... who feel that benefits are too good for these people," said DeCroce of Morris County. "Why go to work? If you can go for 26 weeks collecting $550 a week, and you get an extension for another 26, that's close to $27,000 a year or $30,000 a year, and a lot of people figure, 'Why go to work?'"

119 Romney's position "doesn't count", right? Because he's just a big weenie from New England and we all know that all real conservatives come from the South and the West. Like Graham, McCain, Crist, Schwarzenegger, etc...

120 #124  Why would he list the number of earmarks instead of the dollar totals?  Not very helpful as is.

Agreed, but given that the bill was only released to the public yesterday, there probably hasn't been enough time yet to tabulate the earmark dollar totals.

Although you are right - listing the earmark gross amounts would be a bit more illuminating than the mere number of earmarks. 

121 someone want to point out where palin put out her position on the tax compromise other than a tweet?

122

As majority leader in the Senate, Reid still has a number of cards he can play to frustrate the hell out of the Republican House.

Posted by: Mallamutt

 

Agreed. Which means that a well run RNC is poised with videos and commercials ready to run. Insert the outrage of the day and play. Ensure that politicians in tight spots (ex: Sen Nelson of Nebraska) are confronted and made to answer why these are being tacked on? Why is pay to play being promoted? Didn't the people want transparency?

You can Obama to play along. He would have no compunctions against throwig Reid under the bus.

 

Of course I might just as well have written 'unicorn' instead of 'well run RNC'.

123 Mitt Romney will come out in favor of this thread as soon as it is no longer politically risky.

124 See point #2. There is no way that anyone can state that pork would dissappear if we put millionares against the wall. The problem stems from the fact that things can be tacked on, hidden and glossed over. Victimizing millionaries isn't going to have any magical effect.

I saw your point 2.  Are you forgetting that the original deal didn't have the pork?  It was after the Dems freaked out that Obama bribed them with the energy subsidies and whatnot. 


And, I'm no populist, but with what is going on in the country right now, it is hard to think of a millionaire as a victim.  They are in a much better position to absorb (or avoid) tax increases than most of the country is right now.  It's not my first choice, but given a tax increase for all of us versus a tax increase for people who have an army of financial advisors, tax lawyers, and accountants, I don't think the world will come to an end if they absorb the tax increases for a year or two (until we get WH and Senate back). 

125 The DEMOCRATS have STOLEN CHRISTMAS from MILLIONS of CHILDREN.

Bastards.

126 Why would he list the number of earmarks instead of the dollar totals?  Not very helpful as is. 

Posted by: Y-not

 

Because the dollar amount compared to the overall package is relatively small. The sheer number of paws reaching in to steal is quite impressive. So you go with that number. It's like the politican talking about the number of polling points they've advanced, instead of the difference between them and their opponent. I'm still behind, but I have one piece of good news; I'm gaining, so that's what I'll stress.

127 It really doesn't matter all that much what anyone says about Romney or whether the things said about him are accurate.  His bigger problem is, well, where the Hell has he been while Obungler is flushing the Country down the toilet?



Romney needs to step up and show himself to be a leader.  He hasn't yet.

128 John McCain shows signs of a clue. I wonder how long that will last.

129 A Rino isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would rather have a Rino who votes with Republicans most of the time than a Democrat who will never vote with Republicans; e.g., Castle vs. Coons in Delaware and Lowden vs. Reid in Nevada.

130 Although you are right - listing the earmark gross amounts would be a bit more illuminating than the mere number of earmarks.

The other factor is time in office so also breaking that total down to a yearly avg would be helpful.

131 His concern should be for the American People and their Future. Not his Christmas break:

From Jon Kyl:

Mr. Kyl said that Mr. Reid's effort to do too much was inconsiderate of the Senate as an institution and also of senators, staff and their families hoping to celebrate Christmas. [...]

Mr. Kyl added, " It is impossible to do all of the things that the majority leader laid out without doing -- frankly, without disrespecting the institution and without disrespecting one of the two holiest of holidays for Christians and the families of all of the Senate, not just the senators themselves but all of the staff."

132 137-Brian, we moron(ettes) exhausted that topic months ago. 

133 The RINOs are getting ready to screw us (again) right now.  There is no defense for them that I will accept.  These are the Fiscal Conservtive/Social Moderates that are supposed to be generally OK--screwing us on a fiscal issue this time.  No more. 

134
"Romney needs to step up and show himself to be a leader.  He hasn't yet."


All summer long Romney traveled the country lending his support and donating his own money to conservative candidates. He doesn't currently hold any office, so he can't do much more than that.

135 Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 09:40 AM (IDL9N)

Here is a post I put in the Headlines because I didn't think it was germane to this thread, but it probably is within the confines of what is going on in Congress.

Its just that your old State has been doing what this congress has been doing for a long time. Now they are really going to go whole hog by going after those millionaires again.

Votes have consequences

Standby CA, your boning is about to begin:

Gov.-elect Jerry Brown said Tuesday that he wants to complete a budget agreement within two months of unveiling his budget, an accelerated timeline that would allow a late-spring special election for potential tax increases or other revenue generation.

The train to Detroitization of a State has just accelerated. 

So Y-not; just take one look at Detroit, that is where CA is now headed at a rapid pace. Imagine that for the U.S. as a whole?  The U.S. itself is not immune from collapse.

That is why I said this is NOT an issue we should be worried about politics on or a "temporary" withholding of more taxes" which you will get back.

Hell, for that matter all you have to do is change your W-4.

136 Someone with sufficient balls would say,  "We will stick Christmas so far up Harry Reid's ass he will fart Jingle Bells."

137 More spending, bigger deficits. What's not to like?

138 I wish the Pubs would begin, right now, with their new motto, coined by the President himself..."The Party Of NO".  No to spending, No to big government, No to nanny state, No to Obamacare, No to everything the Dems want.  The larger percent of the American voters would be with them.  Grow some fucking balls and say NO NO NO NO NO!

139 Romney needs to get out in front on some issues.  Going around supporting candidates is nice, curries favor with the power brokers, too.  That is not leading. 

140 That is why I said this is NOT an issue we should be worried about politics on or a "temporary" withholding of more taxes" which you will get back.

I still don't see how any of you have addressed Mallamutt's points about the logistics of "winning" and undoing this next year.  We only control the House. 

And, if I may say, the "optics" (or sound bites) of Republicans using phrases like "victimizing millionaires" while so many people are unemployed, underemployed, and about to be over-taxed are horrible. 

I understand why gutting millionaires is bad policy.  Hell, since my hubby raises money from these folks (and I used to, when I had a job), I may appreciate it a lot more than many -- soaking the rich directly affects our family's job prospects.  But we are in a crisis right now.  I think it is worthwhile to get a real compromise passed now than playing chicken with people's lives. 

141 >>His bigger problem is, well, where the Hell has he been while Obungler is flushing the Country down the toilet? He spent most of last 2 years on the campaign trail helping elect Republican governors, reps and senators and raising more money for them than any other potential candidate. Just because he doesn't have a show on FOX, a reality show or somebody twittering for him non-stop doesn't mean he hasn't been working. You don't have to like him but you might want to thank him for doing as much as anyone for helping getting Republicans elected nationwide this past November. http://tinyurl.com/3xnk3f9

142 Fox on there now with Kommie Karl Kameron hyping the Senate vote for the "Raw Deal" and talking about Republican opposition.

What a bunch of stupid hype. The issue is over Fox (if you are reading this). Tell the damn truth for once as it is. This issue was over when they voted overwhelmingly for cloture. THAT was the actual VOTE.

It doesn't matter any more that Jim DeMint is opposed to it OR anyone else. The Dems now OWN it and every Republican who voted for cloture gave it to them.

143 And, if I may say, the "optics" (or sound bites) of Republicans using phrases like "victimizing millionaires" while so many people are unemployed, underemployed, and about to be over-taxed are horrible. 

I understand why gutting millionaires is bad policy.  Hell, since my hubby raises money from these folks (and I used to, when I had a job), I may appreciate it a lot more than many -- soaking the rich directly affects our family's job prospects.  But we are in a crisis right now.  I think it is worthwhile to get a real compromise passed now than playing chicken with people's lives. 

Posted by: Y-not

 

Using phrases like 'crisis' or 'playing chicken' are no better. The major reason we are in 'crisis' is because the ruling class is actively discouraging ecomonic activity  and paying people off with our money. They are attempting to do the same thing here, and they have the nerve to tell us that we should be grateful for their belated attention to the budget.

144 Romney has been out in front on all of the issues. You choose to ignore what he writes and says. Much like the MFM. Also has anyone found what Palin wrote about the compromise?

145 What about Herman Cain? He's winning the RedState straw poll. I'd guess he's against it. I'd like to see him included in the post.

146 You know, I was thinking.  I've read here (and elsewhere) many times over about how people who've been unemployed a long time should have saved their money, lived within their means, so they could afford to be unemployed (without unemployment benefits) or afford to take any, minimum wage job.  It rings pretty hollow to me, since we have lived a careful life but despite that faced a major financial crisis this year. 

But the thing that makes it ring the most hollow is that millionaires - I don't mean the "rich" as ace defines it (those making >$65K/year), but real millionaires - are apparently such poor planners that they can't afford a tax increase for one or two years?  No, instead, the middle class and lower middle class taxpayers have to risk their paltry incomes to save the millionaires. 

Now that's some funny shit right there. 

147 151, Y-not, I suspect, in order for us to take back this country, we're going to be "...playing chicken with people's lives" in a whole helluva lot of areas than just this one.  Everybody better get ready for that.  Also get ready as libtards keep SCREAMING through the MFM media that that's exactly what the Repubs are doing.  Hope to God people won't listen as we take a decade or longer to clean up.

148
I don't know how many morons are "Facebook" kind of people, but I'd suggest that everyone "friend" or "like" all of the candidates in the running for 2012. Romney and Palin do the best job of keeping updates coming, addressing daily news stories, etc., and I assume the others will be doing the same soon.

149 Using phrases like 'crisis' or 'playing chicken' are no better. The major reason we are in 'crisis' is because the ruling class is actively discouraging ecomonic activity  and paying people off with our money. They are attempting to do the same thing here, and they have the nerve to tell us that we should be grateful for their belated attention to the budget

The crisis is raising taxes on the entire country, including the working poor. 

You keep conflating the budget deal with the tax deal.  I am only talking about the tax deal. 

150 Great.  Romney can keep traveling around being wonderful.  Ask yourself why nobody notices him and more to the point, why he apparently isn't doing anything about it?

151 I wish the Pubs would begin, right now, with their new motto, coined by the President himself..."The Party Of NO".  No to spending, No to big government, No to nanny state, No to Obamacare, No to everything the Dems want.  The larger percent of the American voters would be with them.  Grow some fucking balls and say NO NO NO NO NO! Posted by: Sparky
---------
Oh really?  The larger percent of American voters will scream bloody murder if their taxes go up on Jan 1st.

The tables will turn so quickly your head will spin.  The GOP will be looked on as the party that let the tax cuts expire.. maybe not by ALL voters, but a very large percentage.

I would have preferred the compromise come at the expense of some millionaires paying a few bucks more per year..  they could have compromised on the amount,, say, over $1 million in income or even $2 million.  It is just plain bullshit that taxing those people's personal income will cost jobs.  It's ridiculous.. especially for the measly 3% extra they would pay.

Defending rich pricks is going to be the downfall of the GOP.. especially when it is at the expense of middle class folks.

152 Posted by: SurferDoc


Just keep moving those goal posts.

153 >>Great. Romney can keep traveling around being wonderful. Ask yourself why nobody notices him and more to the point, why he apparently isn't doing anything about it? You might want to ask yourself why he is leading in virtually every national poll. Last election, the true keyboard conservatives were absolutely sure Fred! was going to be our next President. How did that work out?

154

$165,000 for maple syrup research in Vermont.

You poke a hole in a tree! What the fuck is there to study??

155 End witholding (no funds to collect, calculate, or administer it - not a tax cut, your bill is still due), Agency only budgets, SubAgency - Quarterly Appropriations -- all things that can be done without Obama's or the Senate's support. Then send forth the GAO hounds on NASA GISS, DoJ Civil Rights Division, anything related to Obamacare, and the EPA.

156 @168
$165,000 for maple syrup research in Vermont.

lol!  I thought sugar was bad for us, anyway. 

157 May I be one of the first to say  Fuck Huck!

He's a self righteous Baptist preacher on a diet, that knows nothing about economics.

What could go wrong?

158 Does anyone have an actual headcount of Senate votes for this thing?

159

Not having read the comments,  I imagine I am not the only person extremely disappointed in Ryan.

160 Romney couldn't beat Juan McCain.  Christians will not GOTV for him.  He will run a nice campaign and lose gracefully to Obungler. He is not a closer. 

161 chitown jerry why don't you just travel over to the Gold Coast and knock on a few doors and ask for their money directly. No sense in having the tax man be the middle man for you.

162

Can't believe it's not bitter asks - "...someone want to point out where palin put out her position on the tax compromise other than a tweet?"

If that's all the 'gotcha' you got, nice try.  Using the simple messaging format of Twitter, Palin has staked out a position against a pork-encrusted bill that is getting worse.  If the bill miraculously improves (strip out the pork, the earmarks, and the rise in the Estate Tax) then she has room to endorse the revisions, and bless the bill.  And by the way, has anyone considered that the Palin/DeMint/Pence position on this bill could be helping contain the how much pork gets added to this?

If the bill continues to worsen, she'll fisk it in detail in a WSJ or NRO Online  crosspost, just before the vote.  As one of her enemies in Alaska once said, "Timing, baby, timing..."

163 Just keep moving those goal posts.

Posted by: Lincolntf at December 15, 2010 10:16 AM (MiG8u)

So you think that doing what Karl Rove, Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, and Michael Steele all did during the 2010 elections shows him to be a leader?

164 You poke a hole in a tree! What the fuck is there to study??

Poking trees is boring, we want to poke something new.

165 Yeah... too bad. And Pawlenty's living up to his MN roots. Posted by: billygoat at December 15, 2010 07:37 AM Yeah, I'm not surprised at all to see Tim "The era of small government is over . . . government has to be more proactive, more aggressive" Pawlenty on the "compromise" list. He's for big government and believes in global warming and considers those who aren't to be deniers. Those two things alone should guarantee that he should not be on anyone's list for President in 2012 (or ever).

166 175 Romney couldn't beat Juan McCain.  Christians will not GOTV for him.


Can I jump in here and ask what you mean by that? 

167 Using phrases like 'crisis' or 'playing chicken' are no better.

Crisis???  I'LL tell you about crisis!!!

168 It's not a gotcha. I want to know her reasoning for her position and whether it corresponds to mine or whether she has other insights. Frankly I could not tell from her tweet whether she was against the compromise or how Obama presented it.

169 >>Romney couldn't beat Juan McCain. Christians will not GOTV for him. He will run a nice campaign and lose gracefully to Obungler. He is not a closer. And Ronald Reagan lost to Gerald frigging Ford and Palin contorted herself to support all of McCain's positions. So what? That is the most meaningless and often repeated nonsense regarding the last election. The bigger picture is that Romney was a first time national candidate and came in a very close second before dropping out after McCain and Huck teamed up to knee cap him. Which is why Romney has been criss crossing the country endorsing candidates and building a base and not doing TV spots. For example, Charlie Crist isn't in FL to throw his support to McCain this time, Rick Scott, a guy Romney campaigned for is. Who do you think Scott will support?

170 Why don't you throw DeMint up there on the 2012 checklist, he would be a more credible contender then Newt or Huck at this point.

171 Assuming we're still talking about the deal that was announced, (extending benefits in exchange for extending current tax rates and adding a payroll tax cut), then I'm in favor of the deal.  If they throw a bunch of energy subsidies into the mix then I'm not keen on it.

Are most folks here against it because they assume it's being porked up, or do they really not like the original deal?

172 Using phrases like 'crisis' or 'playing chicken' are no better.

Crisis???  I'LL tell you about crisis!!!

Posted by: That Chicken

 

Word.

173 181 175 Romney couldn't beat Juan McCain.  Christians will not GOTV for him.

Can I jump in here and ask what you mean by that?
-----
It's code for "Romney is a Mormon".

174 chitown jerry why don't you just travel over to the Gold Coast and knock on a few doors and ask for their money directly. No sense in having the tax man be the middle man for you. Posted by: Mr. Claus Worfield
----------
I hate taxes as much as any conservative.  But we have this thing called a deficit.. which cannot solely be blamed on Obama and Pelosi.. Bush was running a 1/2 Trillion dollar deficit a year.. and that was BEFORE he passed a Trillion more for TARP.

So fuck off.. show me some GOP backbone on the spending side first.. If this is such a fucking crisis, where are the leaders of the GOP calling for ending 2 stupid wars?  Where are the calls for deep defense cuts (if only temporarily) along with entitlements?  No.. the sacred cows of the GOP are defense and letting the rich have every tax break they can get.  Fuck that.  A few thousand more from the Gold Coast residents (who all voted for Obama anyway) ain't gonna kill anyone.

175 It's code for "Romney is a Mormon".

Which is code for Mormons aren't Christians.

Of course, neither are dirty papists. 

176 Y-not: Its a baptist vs mormon thing. Having lived in the deep South and Utah - I think it is a little overblown. Which State does a slightly depressed Christian conservative vote flip?

177 So why did he quit again, if he was the candidate. leaving Huck to block any center right challenge to McCain, like Thompson, who was deemed by the 'deciders' to be too lethargic, he did just fine,

178 174

Not having read the comments,  I imagine I am not the only person extremely disappointed in Ryan.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 15, 2010 10:22 AM (pLTLS)

Yeah.. WTF?

179 the sacred cows of the GOP are defense

An actual constitutional responsibility of the federal government. Imagine that.

180 You Romney folks can get mad at me if you like.  I'm just reflecting public perception back at you.  Bottom line: You are not making the sale.  Neither is Romney. 

For those of you who need to be hit with a clue stick: If Romney is so fucking hot he needs to SHOW it.  

181 Yeah, Sukie, but didn't you guys also exhaust the issue of Romney's viability YEARS ago?

182 ChiTown-Jerry -- in those arguments you should note Bush's deficits before Pelosi became Speaker, not when she was in charge. He was running a war without raising taxes, and the budget wasn't broken until she came along.

183 "For those of you who need to be hit with a clue stick: If Romney is so fucking hot he needs to SHOW it. "

Have you read his books? Listened to his speeches? Read his editorials? If you're so fucking hot to know what he's all about, I'd suggest doing all three for starters.

184 196-Brian, I wasn't pin-pointing Romney.  I was making a comment on the general RINO vs conservatism debate.

I'm a Tea Party head in MO, and I can with 95% certainty conclude that the TPs across the country won't support Romney.  Doesn't mean he can't pull it off, but it'll be a whole lot harder.

185 You should also note that deficits compared to gdp and percentage of budget increase is how to get an accurate historical comparison.

186 I hate taxes as much as any conservative.  But we have this thing called a deficit..

Then you should be more concerned with the revenue generated by taxes than raising the rate of taxation. Raising the tax rate on the rich will only generate a short term rise in revenue before they stop working so hard or find another way around the tax. Approx 20% of GDP is the most you can take in taxes so cutting spending is the answer not taxing. Because 20% of a strong economy is better than 20% of a weak one.

187 >>So why did he quit again, if he was the candidate. leaving Huck to block any center right challenge to McCain, like Thompson, who was deemed by the 'deciders' to be too lethargic, he did just fine, He "quit" when it became nearly mathematically impossible for him to get the nomination and unlike Huck he didn't think it was in the best interest of the party to have a long drawn out campaign but instead threw his support immediately behind the eventual candidate, McCain in hope of beating Obama. Unlike Fred! who got in the campaign for a week and then disappeared. As for quitting, Palin has asked us not to use that word. Some of you folks have exceedingly short or convenient memories.

188 $165,000 for maple syrup research in Vermont. You poke a hole in a tree! What the fuck is there to study?? Whether it looks and tastes better when drizzled on blondes, brunettes or redheads.

189 What part of HE NEEDS TO SELL HIMSELF don't you get?

It is not up to me to go read his books.  He needs to sell me on him.  He isn't even coming close and neither are you.

He is failing at the essential basic task of a politician. 

190 Jean - A deficit is a deficit.. be it from running a war or other shit.. You act as if running a war on a deficit is some noble effort.  It's still a deficit.  The Dems think the crap they spend money on is "noble" as well.  Both points of view are dumb in my opinion.. all deficits are bad.  If you want a war, raise taxes to pay for it.. you want entitlements? raise taxes to pay for it.  The American voter will become very well educated about what it important to them when they have to start paying for it.

McCain argued against Bush's tax cuts for good reason.

191

For those of you who need to be hit with a clue stick: If Romney is so fucking hot he needs to SHOW it.  

Yep, he needs to step out of the "Don't make waves, stay nice and clean for the election" box.  Right now, I get the feeling he'd throw his kids to wolves before he'd risk damage to his image.

That degree of political vanity is long overdue for death.

192 Posted by: Sukie Tawdry


I'm as Tea Party as they come. I've been to three of the actual rallies and spend a bunch of time chatting with other TP'ers. I don't see anywhere near 95% opposition to Romney here in NC. There are a lot of pro-Palin people of course, but Romney is probably the consensus second choice.

193

Like John Kerry, I was for it before I was against it. The straight tax rate extention and UC funding was a decent compromise, even with the 35% death tax.

With all this crap going on now, I feel congress has to about April to start getting this shit right. Then the weather will be warmer and people will be hotter. No one wants to stand out in freezing weather holding a sign and yelling. And people with no jobs and no money watching their kids go hungry kinda get to feeling they have nothing to lose. If you want to see how that turns out, look up "Bonus Army". Machine guns aimed at desperate Americans in the middle of our nation's capital is not a pretty sight and one I'm sure none of us want to see it again.

194 Posted by: SurferDoc

So now he needs to make a personal visit to your home to sell himself because you can't be bothered to read his books? Aren't you a special little snowflake.

195 >>You Romney folks can get mad at me if you like. I'm just reflecting public perception back at you. Bottom line: You are not making the sale. Neither is Romney. I supported Romney last time, he was clearly the best qualified of the candidates. Jury is out this time until I see who is running. But I'm not mad. Just correcting your perception, you don't speak for the public. As I said, you might want to explain how Romney is polling so well when you insist that he has no chance.

196 Solution:

1.  Support the compromise with all of the crap in it.
2.  After January 4,  the House can remove an equivalent amount from the various agencies that received pork in the tax deal.

197

But, is there anything is this bill about Rent!

Cause the Rents too dam high.... if not, I'm against it...

So why aren't I on the list??? Don't dis me, I'll Karate you!

198 Surferdic Romney's effort to convince you to support him is as useful as a Palin effort to have Katie Couric support her.

199 Uh, Mr Malor. Mr Malor. I think you'll also find that it's "Mike Daniels" and not "Mitch Daniels".

Who names a kid "Mitch"? There weren't any Mitches in the madrassah, I can tell you. 

200 195 You Romney folks can get mad at me if you like.  I'm just reflecting public perception back at you.

Romney is off my list for the foreseeable future because I haven't been happy with his health care walk-back and I'd like to see him run something.  (I've mentioned before that any of the prospective candidates who are not actually running something right now are in my second tier, that includes Palin, Huck (ick), Romney, Fred! (not that he's running), Gingrich, and the rest of the pundit class.) 

Having said that, I am disgusted by the propagation of this "Christians won't vote for Mormons hoohah."  First, it ain't accurate.  Second, it is repulsive to me that someone would attempt to smear a candidate based on his/her version of Christianity.  (Reminds me of what folks tried to do to Palin, actually, so it's particularly amusing to see it employed against Romeny.) Third, it demonstrates a complete ignorance of the LDS to imply they aren't Christian. 

Then again, the same cretins making fools of themselves at Temple Square as LDS families walk to their services hate Catholics, too, so I guess I take these attacks personally.

201 190 It's code for "Romney is a Mormon".

Which is code for Mormons aren't Christians.

Of course, neither are dirty papists.
--------
But their OK as long as they shower frequently?

202 208 - Lincolntf, the problem I'm encountering with Romney and TPers is that he's "old line."  He's also regarded, at least among the heads of most TPers in MO, as a RINO.  This "old line" image will only get worse for him if conservatives in congress shit around with their new mandate.  TPers will only grow more and more pissed off and start pushing harder and harder for a fresh face that holds with an iron-grip our objectives.

But it's interesting that you cite him as a fallback choice if there are multiple TPer, none of whom can seal the deal.

203 212-mallamutt, not sure what your point is with this:

"Well, in fairness.....John McCain did win Missouri last time around. "

The only other option for MO voters was a prick.

204 Because he hasn't really been made a target, PPP slants their polls, much as they did with Huckabee, earlier last year, just like that ridiculous Washington Post poll
yesterday, Dems are trusted more on taxes, really, what  color is the sky on that world.

205 Of course, neither are dirty papists.
--------
But their OK as long as they shower frequently?


Nah, we don't need to shower.  Why do you think we use all that incense?

206 Are most folks here against it because they assume it's being porked up, or do they really not like the original deal? Posted by: Caiwyn at December 15, 2010 10:30 AM I'm against it, because it does nothing to improve the economic situation of the country. With simply keeping the tax rates the same, that just keeps the status quo. And the status quo is not working. I want tax rate cuts. Of course, if you listen to the way the Democrats and MF-ing media are framing this issue, they make it sound like we are getting tax cuts, when they frame it "extending the Bush Tax Cuts". Someone explained it well above with the analogy of having a gun to one's head and having an offer of getting shot now or 5 minutes from now. Only for our tax rates, the Democrats have a gun to our heads and are saying "we'll either shoot you now (let Bush Tax Cuts expire, thereby raising taxes in JAN 2011) or we'll shoot you in 2 years (keep tax rates the same, but raise them in 2 years)". That isn't a deal at all. And it does absolutely nothing to *improve* our economic situation. It just extends the status quo. And last I checked, the American people did not throw the Democrats out of office to simply extend the status quo. They want *fiscal conservative* government. If the Republicans had any sense, they would be out there in every interview explaining (1) extending the Bush Tax Cuts does nothing except keep the status quo, which hasn't been working since 2007 (2) we want to cut taxes, which will spur job growth as it did under Reagan and as it did under Bush in 2001 and 2003. Then, when they don't agree to the deal and everyone's taxes go up, they can say "well, we wanted to cut your taxes, but the Democrats refused." But the Democrats are controlling the argument, blaming this all on Republicans saying "well, we wanted to keep taxes the same, but the Republicans refused, so they are to blame for your taxes going up". But it's a false argument. The choice should not be between getting shot with the gun now or being shot with the gun in 2 years. There should be an option of not getting shot with the gun at all (cutting tax rates). THAT is what the American electorate voted for last month. That said, all the pork and shit they stuffed in this bill on top of all that makes it absolutely a NO DEAL. NO ONE should be supporting this shit. If Conservatives and Republicans are not willing to stand up and fight for what we want now, and are just willing to do the same old shit they always do and compromise to give the Democrats what they want, then we may as well just give up now.

207 So now he needs to make a personal visit to your home to sell himself because you can't be bothered to read his books? Aren't you a special little snowflake.

Thousands of people write books on politics.  Many of them have fantastic ideas.  These people don't get to be president.

208 Let's not forget that Jim DeMint was and to my knowledge still a Romney supporter.

209 "6 Romney didn't come out against it until the real compromise deal was scuttled and the Senate added all the pork to it. I don't know exactly at what time the others chimed in. I just remember Romney's rhetoric came AFTER the Senate had already voted for cloture and it was a done deal so his opposition was freaking meaningless. Yeah, he's a candidate for the "No Labels" crowd" Just another "me too" candidate who thinks it's his turn...

210 If Romney could generate as much heat for himself as some of you do for him, he might have something.  As it stands he is a RINO who can't close.  Next.

211 iknowtheleft - it's apparent to me you don't.

212 230 "6 Romney didn't come out against it until the real compromise deal was scuttled and the Senate added all the pork to it. I don't know exactly at what time the others chimed in.

I just remember Romney's rhetoric came AFTER the Senate had already voted for cloture and it was a done deal so his opposition was freaking meaningless.

Yeah, he's a candidate for the "No Labels" crowd"

Just another "me too" candidate who thinks it's his turn...

Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 15, 2010 10:54 AM (O+hhv)

//


"Me too" Mitt can always be counted on to take a stand...

...behind Sarah Palin, who's leading the charge.

213 I am catching a drift here of the tax extension and budget bill being conflated into one. Is that what is happening, or am I [as usual] confused?

214 Posted by: SurferDoc


So the one guy on here who acknowledges complete ignorance of Romney's positions is the one making the final judgment call on him. Gotta love the interwebz.

215

I'm torn on the tax compromise.  I really think we all have to remember that the so-called "millionaires" in this country are those individuals who earn $200,000 or more per year, and households that earn $250,000 or more per year.  That includes small businesses that use private tax returns to file their business taxes.  Allowing tax rate hikes to go through for these "top earners" is a nail in the coffin of even more American jobs.  That's what this whole argument has been about.  If it were just a matter of jacking up Bill Gates' tax bill, I'd be all for it!  I don't think he'd miss it.  But we aren't just talking about Fortune 500 CEOs.

I don't trust even the new Republican-dominated congress to be able to get a better tax bill in place come January.  I suspect they will fold, because past experience tells me they will.  I know there is a new crop of fresh faces heading to DC from this past election, but until they put their money where their mouths are and show me that they're different from 'Pubs of the past, I'm not going to trust them.  I'm sure I'm not alone.  That leads to a lot of fear, and fear leads to money hoarding, which leads to an even slower economy.

On the other hand, the idea of passing this pork-packed second stimulus is absolute anathema to me.  Again, I feel as powerless as I did in the two years leading up to this election, with the people in Washington ignoring the will of the electorate and merrily going about their business as usual.  WE DON'T WANT PORK.  We want a bill that says, "The tax rates will remain as is."  That's it!  The rest of this bullshit is frustrating as hell and makes me furious. 

216 A Cop-Killer, a Man Who Divorced His Wife On Her Hospital Bed, and a Man Who Has Never Been Out Front On An Issue in His Life... all politicians of a dead century, all politicians who cannot lead in this one. Remember, these are the guys who couldn't beat the guy who couldn't beat Barack O'Bama.

217 The best argumen against Democracy is a five minute conversation with an average voter or surferdic and Richard McEnroe

218 Hey look over there! It's a chicken! Why don't you go "fund some research" for her?

219 I really think we all have to remember that the so-called "millionaires" in this country are those individuals who earn $200,000 or more per year, and households that earn $250,000 or more per year.

That's not what has been reported. 

The $200k or $250k figures were definitions of "rich".  (Or $65k if you're ace.  I guess one's perspective is different if you live in a cardboard box and subsist on Night Train and hobo meat.) 

But the deal Obama/Dems wanted was actually to allow the tax cuts to expire for real millionaires, not the working wealthy. 

220 And we are down to three.

221

Everyone's favorite toe fan explained the pork process quite well this morning on F&F.  For example, if the earmark is $500,000 the lobby group returns  $50,000 or 10% of it to said porker's campaign fund for the next cycle.  So, they're essentially funding their campaigns on the taxpayers' backs.  That's why this shiite has to be stopped.

222 as effective as trying to predict who is going to win the 2013 Super Bowl.
The Chicago Cubs. And I'm going to be the one throwing out the first puck, too.

223 >>trying to predict who can and can not win a Presidential primary this far out is as effective as trying to predict who is going to win the 2013 Super Bowl. I can predict who won't win in 2013, The Frigging New Frigging York Frigging Jets. They won't win until after I die just to spite me. Friggers.

224 I still put my money on the fat man from Jersey or Rick Santorum from PA.

225 R-R-R-Reagan. Reagan. R-Reagan.

226 234 I am catching a drift here of the tax extension and budget bill being conflated into one.

They seem to be getting conflated in some peoples' minds (here), but as far as I know, they are separate efforts/bills. 

227 236 - Mallamut, clarifying question on this statement:

"Well, in fairness.....John McCain did win Missouri last time around. "

Were you referring to the primaries or the general?

BTW, I actually live in Dardenne Prairie, which is St. Charles County, which is what I think you were referring to.  St. Charles city is more RINOish than the rest of the county, which is very very conservative.

228 That's not what has been reported. 

The $200k or $250k figures were definitions of "rich".  (Or $65k if you're ace.  I guess one's perspective is different if you live in a cardboard box and subsist on Night Train and hobo meat.) 

But the deal Obama/Dems wanted was actually to allow the tax cuts to expire for real millionaires, not the working wealthy. 

Posted by: Y-not, dirty papist who voted for Romney at December 15, 2010 11:02 AM (IDL9N)

Is there a tax bracket for people earning over $1M that I'm not aware of or are you suggesting a new tax bracket was proposed? 

Just so I understand you, are you saying that people who are 'real millionaires' did not work for it?

229 >>and then Huck's sinister deal with McShame in the South Carolina caucus (was that it?) sealed Romney's fate (who was my choice at that point). West By God Virginia. Close enough, you're rolling.

230 Hey look over there! It's a chicken! Why don't you go "fund some research" for her?
Sorry. My fuck dance card is full up until January 5, 2011.

231 What I heard discussed when Obama was first negotiating, was taxing people who made $1M or $2M.  I don't know the details, but I am sure it was not the "rich" definition that Obama used before.

Just so I understand you, are you saying that people who are 'real millionaires' did not work for it?

You'll have to read my comments, Tami, for my rationale in preferring that the GOP pass a tax deal now rather than letting all of our rates go up. 

Other than that, I don't understand where your notion of 'working for it' comes in. 

232

4.$349,000 for pig waste management in North Carolina.

9.$2 million for a fruit laboratory in West Virginia.

I don't feel special any more.

233 I can predict who won't win in 2013, The Frigging New Frigging York Frigging Jets.
They won't win until after I die just to spite me.
Friggers.
A real fan would top himself this year so the team would win the following year.

234 Background on "millionaire tax cut compromise" effort, from The Hill.

235

"9.$2 million for a fruit laboratory in West Virginia."

What the hell is a fruit laboratory?  If I ever see a banana with genitals or an apple with a mustache, I'm gonna blow up this goddamn earth myself.

236 Personally I think all this "anti-Mormon" shit is a lot of media generated hype. Romney actually did about the same as Fred in the SC primary and you can say SC is the HOME of the Baptist bible belt.

There are a LOT of Morons in the South and they are generally accepted by most of the population. The South, as a whole, is much more tolerant than the media projects. Life down here is not all "Mississippi Burning" as the MFM likes to put on TV.

Romney's problem is NOT a Mormon problem. It is his liberal record in MA. In the South support for the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons ban are real killers. Support for Obamacare is up there as well.

In short, in the South he is viewed as a just another NE liberal Republican and there is good cause for that.

I will give him credit for one thing. He did come down and campaign for Hely even before Palin did. However, his support had absolutely zero impact based on the polls that were ran after he came down.  That pretty much tells you how he will do here if things stay the same between now and 2012.

However, when Palin came down and supported Haley the polls immediately turned around. Haley went from last place to first place almost overnight and on top of that if I recall correctly, they were not even close.

She almost won the primary outright on the first vote in a 4-way race. That is unheard of by an pretty much unknown candidate at the start of the race.

237 O/T, Border agent shot and killed near Nogales. Four suspects in custody, one still at large.

238
"Thousands of people write books on politics.  Many of them have fantastic ideas.  These people don't get to be president." Bevel Lemelisk


What kind of bullshit non-sequitir is this? I never once stated or implied that writing books was a qualification for the Presidency. But candidate's books are a good place to find out what a candidate's views are. Not everyone limits their thoughts to 140 characters or less.

239 >>A real fan would top himself this year so the team would win the following year. pffft. This team has taken years off my life already. I'd offer to stand outside with a bullseye on my heart but Sanchez would miss me and shot somebody two towns over. Friggers.

240 258-Mallamutt, the Blunts are financed and owned totally and completely by Danforth money.  Danforth, BTW, hates Todd Akin (my Cong.) with a passion (because he's a constitutional conserv.) and has tried to unseat him many times.

Also, Peter Kinder is actually from Cape Giraudou (sp?).  He and Rusyh Limbaugh grew up together.  He is also a Danforth spawn.  And he is running for Gov.

 

241 Damn that Palin! She has come to the correct conclusion before her more "serious" and "informed" peers AGAIN! How does such a dummy do that time after time? ERRRRR.

242 Background on "millionaire tax cut compromise" effort,

“We should not hold middle-class tax cuts hostage any longer,” said Obama, who wants to extend low tax rates for individuals making less than $200,000 and families with incomes under $250,000 while phasing out tax cuts for wealthier taxpayers.

This is the way the dems always Butcher the English language, now making 200K a year means you are a millionaire.

243

What the hell is a fruit laboratory?  If I ever see a banana with genitals or an apple with a mustache, I'm gonna blow up this goddamn earth myself.

Hey, man, don't ask, don't peel.

244 263 Personally I think all this "anti-Mormon" shit is a lot of media generated hype.

Well, it'll never die until some people who call themselves conservatives stop bringing it up. 

But, yeah, I personally know of Evangelicals who voted for Romney - and not Huck - in the Cali primary. 

245 Remember, these are the guys who couldn't beat the guy who couldn't beat Barack O'Bama. Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 15, 2010 10:59 AM (O+hhv)

Obama won because he was BLACK and gave a good speech.

That wont happen again.  Whoever wins the primary will win  in '12 if we get behind him or her with as much enthusiasm as the mid terms.

246 Mallamutt, yeah I know you're from the east side.  You and I had a quick exchange about getting a StL moron(ette)s meetup sometime.

247 qarrg "Hel" = "Haley"

248 This is the way the dems always Butcher the English language, now making 200K a year means you are a millionaire.

You have to read further. 

"Sen. Evan Bayh (Ind.), who wants to extend all of the tax cuts, said this was discussed at a Democratic caucus meeting. He said a liberal member of the caucus argued any tax increases on people earning less than $1 million could hamper economic growth."

249
What's the point of this post?

Every day we have this same circle-jerk about the GOP's 2012 Fantasy Presidential League.

250

John Thune's decision in backing the deal is disappointing.

Consider this though, Thune inside the Omnibus bill released by the dems yesterday has some $8M in earmarks alone for South Dakota.

251

That Commentor Who Calls Everyone RINOS!

They Live! Man, you gotta get those glasses out so we all can see them!

252 Well, it'll never die until some people who call themselves conservatives stop bringing it up.

Some people "who call themselves conservatives" pay far too much attention to what the MFM says even though they know that the MFM is a bunch of liars.

Some of them even allowed the MFM to nominate our candidate for us in 2008.

253 Some people "who call themselves conservatives" pay far too much attention to what the MFM says even though they know that the MFM is a bunch of liars.

So you're saying that the folks here, at Hot Air, and elsewhere who post "Christians won't support Romney" are actually members of the media posing as conservatives? 

Interesting theory. 

254 Mormons don't drink.

That alone should disqualify them for the AoSHQ vote.

255 But, yeah, I personally know of Evangelicals who voted for Romney - and not Huck - in the Cali primary. 

Depends on the evangelical.  I know several who think Mormonism is akin to Scientology merged with Islam and disqualify Romney on those grounds.  (If Kirstie Alley became a suicide bomber it'd look a lot like the Michael Moore explosion in Team America, no?)

256

Romney is a commie.

257 Frankly, I'm not impressed by this game of chicken. I would rather the Republicans throw the millionaires under the bus in exchange for... Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 09:29 AM First they came for the millionaires, and I said go ahead. Seriously, if we agree that it's okay to punish "the rich", next they will come for "slightly less rich", then they will come for "slightly less than less rich", etc etc etc. No, we do not agree to throw anyone under the bus here. Consider that there are plenty of people who probably consider *you* "rich" and are willing to throw *you* under the bus to get what they want. It is NOT prudent to start that downward spiral of approving of class warfare.

258 So you're saying that the folks here, at Hot Air, and elsewhere who post "Christians won't support Romney" are actually members of the media posing as conservatives?

No, I am saying that they are just buying into the media propaganda. That propaganda is actually designed to hurt conservatives.

259 Posted by: Y-not


I think it's pretty clear that Romney has to live by a whole different set of rules than other conservatives. Whether out of malice or ignorance, the majority of criticism directed at Romney mischaracterizes him in one way or another. The cons who play the "Mormon" card are probably not truly bigots, but they do feel the need to discredit/disqualify Romney before the campaign season really gets rolling.

260

What's the point of this post?

Know your enemy, man:

9.$750,000 for the Algae to Ethanol Research and Evaluation in New Jersey

261 "A man's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink."

262 What kind of bullshit non-sequitir is this? I never once stated or implied that writing books was a qualification for the Presidency. But candidate's books are a good place to find out what a candidate's views are. Not everyone limits their thoughts to 140 characters or less.

This was the exchange:

"For those of you who need to be hit with a clue stick: If Romney is so fucking hot he needs to SHOW it. "

Have you read his books? Listened to his speeches?

So my statement is not a non-sequitor.  Talk, as the old saying goes, is cheap.  Accomplishments are better.

263 "Sen. Evan Bayh (Ind.), who wants to extend all of the tax cuts, said this was discussed at a Democratic caucus meeting. He said a liberal member of the caucus argued any tax increases on people earning less than $1 million could hamper economic growth." Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 11:19 AM Why was $1 Million chosen as okay to raise taxes, but everyone under it was not okay? Was there some sort of economic analysis done or was it just easy to pick $1 Million, based on class warfare ("yeah, the millionaires can have their taxes raised, they have enough money to handle it"). Serious question. Where's the economic analysis that says $1 Million is the cutoff for economic growth being hampered?

264 Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 11:19 AM (IDL9N)

Yes I should have read further. I had not heard anything about this compromise.  And just assumed it was a butchering of the language. Since it was Schumer who floated it I still think it's a trap.

265 You'll have to read my comments, Tami, for my rationale in preferring that the GOP pass a tax deal now rather than letting all of our rates go up. 

Other than that, I don't understand where your notion of 'working for it' comes in. 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 11:09 AM (IDL9N)

I've read your comments and I still say that raising taxes on 'millionaires' is going to cause a bigger economic/employment crisis than we already have.  You think they're holding back capital now, just wait.  There are a lot of business owners in that group.  It's not exactly going to cause them to keep and/or hire people.

You made the distinction between 'real millionaires' and the 'working wealthy'.  I asked if you viewed the 'real millionaires' as not having worked for their wealth.   

266 111 Frankly, I'm not impressed by this game of chicken. 

I would rather the Republicans throw the millionaires under the bus in exchange for getting rid of the pork in the tax compromise than have them risk tax increases for 95% of the country.  Call me a RINO or call me someone who is sick of elected officials who don't give a rat's ass about me. 

Posted by: Y-not at December 15, 2010 09:29 AM (IDL9N)

nice class warfare you have there.

267 I am so sick of all these political pigs.  They are going to torture us as long as they possibly can with this bill.  God, I hate them all.

268 No, I am saying that they are just buying into the media propaganda. That propaganda is actually designed to hurt conservatives. Posted by: Vic at December 15, 2010 11:28 AM Yep, this is the biggest problem I have with conservatives. Instead of making up their own minds based on substance, they fall for the BS propaganda of the MF-ing media and then change "strategy" to make up their minds based on style as defined by the MF-ing media. If I had $1 for every time I heard or read someone during the 2008 GOP Primaries say "I actually support (conservative Candidate X), but the polls show he is unelectable, so I'm voting for (candidate said to be "electable" by the MF-ing media polls)", I could have retired.

269 The cons who play the "Mormon" card are probably not truly bigots, but they do feel the need to discredit/disqualify Romney before the campaign season really gets rolling.

I think that at this stage of the game, we'd all be better served by not speculating about electability and instead focusing on what specific issues we each think are winning or losing positions for any given candidate. 

Personally, I believe Palin is unelectable, but I have learned from these threads that embarking on that train of reasoning is not productive.  Anyway, I don't know if she's electable or not, so there's nothing I'm adding to the discussion by saying one way or the other if she is.  So I've tried to learn to just address the things that I personally think about her as a candidacy. 

I think issues about electability come into play once we arrive at a nominee and s/he is picking his/her running mate. 


In terms of Romney and Mormons, I find it illuminating that now that I'm here in Utah I know of several very wealthy/prominent members of the LDS who are already working with Palin.  So I guess the Mormons may be a little more open-minded than some. 

270 Whether out of malice or ignorance, the majority of criticism directed at Romney mischaracterizes him in one way or another.

And his supporters are blind adherents who make excuses for things which would be deal-breakers for anybody else.  He's this awesome executive who has never done anything awesome.  He's the true conservative who was an ardent supporter of a woman's right to choose.

271
I nominate Bushrod Washington for 2012.

272 Mallamutt - "It is on my to do list for 2012. Preferably spring..."

Do we really have to wait that long?

273 BTW, I didn't say Christians wouldn't vote for Romney.  I said they wouldn't GOTV for him, meaning those who are always labeled 'Right Wing Christians' would not bust their butts to get to the polls. I grew up with them and I know them.  They think Mormonism is a cult and that Mormons may be nice people but they have been tricked into false beliefs.  The smart ones keep their mouths shut about it unless they are among friends.   I stand by that.

274 It's two fronts of the same war, what do you think happens if we quit, the best of their bombers, were blown up or captured, leaving us with the C team, the B team is still at Gitmo

275 Yeah, Bevel, I'm a blind adherent. And so is everybody else who prefers any candidate other than yours, right? Nobody could possibly support Romney based on substance, his career, and the thought that he'd be the best President of all the current choices. Nope, we're all just a bunch of fucking idiots treating politics like a sporting event and rooting for our favorite uniforms.
So, you condescending prick, who are you blindly adhering to these days?

276 nice class warfare you have there

It's not a question of class warfare.  It's a question of (1) getting a tax deal cut before Jan 1 that helps the most people and (2) who in can afford a greater sacrifice right now.

Read my comments before slapping that label on me. 

Or not. 

Whatever. 


The same group of folks who berate unemployed people for drawing benefits or say that we should cut benefits to people on Social Security during this recession or depression or whatever the fuck we're in are going to risk the poorest tax payers having their rates increase 50% so that millionaires' rates don't go up for a year or two until we take back the Senate and, God willing, the WH?  That's ridiculous. 

Or they believe that somehow Obama and Reid are going to roll when the new Congress is in session next year.  How's that supposed to work, exactly?  Mallamutt already detailed how difficult it will be to undo the tax increases next year.  I still haven't seen anyone explain how that's supposed to work. 

277

 It really doesn't matter all that much what anyone says about Romney or whether the things said about him are accurate.  His bigger problem is, well, where the Hell has he been while Obungler is flushing the Country down the toilet?



Romney needs to step up and show himself to be a leader.  He hasn't yet.

I agree. I like Mitt, however he's been a real behind the scenes guy since he bowed out of the primaries. He sees his path to the primary through the insiders, donors, endorsements of state politicians, and through already loyal supporters specifically in the business community.

However, he's a little too behind the scenes. He comes out in support or against something well after everyone else, and when no one is paying attention.

He just seems to be trying to limit any bad press or possbile misques.

However, he will forever have the millstone of Romneycare around his neck.

 

I wouldn't be pissed if Romney wins the primaries, but I'm not overly excited about him. I do think he would be strong on defense, make good economic policy, and would choose a conservative supreme court justice. So if he did win, it wouldn't be all bad.

 

It would surely be better than Huckabee who is becoming the consensus pick to many republicans early on.

278
We can continue to massage each other with this nonsense, or we can address the two big problems we have right now:

1. Mitch McConnell as minority leader.
2. Michael Steele as RNC chair.

If we don't fix those two problems, we can forget about winning anything in 2012.

279 Yeah, Bevel, I'm a blind adherent. And so is everybody else who prefers any candidate other than yours, right?

YOU said people hated Romney out of ignorance or malice.  I took exception to that; I oppose him based on arguments.  Well, if you paint with a broad brush, then so do I.  If I am malicious, you are a blind adherent.

To answer your nicely-phrased question: there are no good candidates yet.

280 #305

You are right, they won't GOTV.

You know who else thinks Romney is a kook?

"The magnificent bastard".

I was at a lunch where he made a less that polite comment about "kooky Mormons".

281 Background on "millionaire tax cut compromise" effort,

“We should not hold middle-class tax cuts hostage any longer,” said Obama, who wants to extend low tax rates for individuals making less than $200,000 and families with incomes under $250,000 while phasing out tax cuts for wealthier taxpayers.

This is the way the dems always Butcher the English language, now making 200K a year means you are a millionaire.

Posted by: Buzzsaw

This.

What happened to social cons being the death of true conservatism? Why are people talking about 'real' millionaires? This is class warfare, pure and simple.

 

It's wrong.

And it doesn't work. Revenues go down, not up. People start hiding money. The incentive to hide increases. And they have the tools and talent to do it. Not all of them are as stupid and clumsy as John Kerry and his $7 million dollar yacht, sailing over the horizon (to Rhode Island). Look what is happening to New York state, California adn New Jersey. Delaware became the 'corporate capital' forty years ago because they reformed corporation laws and fees, and then amend usery laws to attract issuers.

282

Given that the only declared(unofficially) candidates are

Palin

Romney

Huckabee

Pence

Paul

 

so far. I do not think that Christie, Ryan, or Rubio will get into the mix. Christie won't because if he gets in and loses in the primaries, he would never win re-election to the governorship in NJ. He is liked enough to win re-election now, but If he is seen as bailing on the state it will tank him. He can't get in the primaries unless he is 100 percent certain he can win. I think Paul Ryan sees himself as the future Newt Gingrich and honesly has no presidential aspirations, yet.  Rubio is a noob. I like him, but he doesn't even have 5 minutes of experience as a US Senator. Rubio is the future president in 2020 or 2024

283 If we don't fix those two problems, we can forget about winning anything in 2012.

As important as our Presidential pick is for 2012 is all the congress critters and Senators we will have to chose from. Actually it is more important since they write the laws. But that is probably what you intended by point 2.

284 Romney and Huck fans have the same problem: "Obama, but 50% whiter!" is a really shitty slogan.

285

BTW, I didn't say Christians wouldn't vote for Romney.  I said they wouldn't GOTV for him, meaning those who are always labeled 'Right Wing Christians' would not bust their butts to get to the polls. I grew up with them and I know them.  They think Mormonism is a cult and that Mormons may be nice people but they have been tricked into false beliefs.  The smart ones keep their mouths shut about it unless they are among friends.   I stand by that.

I think that's fact. There are probably 10% of the party that wouldn't cast a ballot for a mormon in the primary, but I think they would show up in the generals. If the choice is between a mormon and marxist, I have a feeling what side they will come down on.

If you remember Huckabee even tried to make Mitt's mormonism an issue during the primaries. People are fooling themselves if they don't think that will cost Mitt some votes in the primary.

However, I don't think Mitt sees his way to winning the primary through the tradition south anyway. He is looking to pick off states McCain won in the primaries. The Northeast, Midwest and maybe Florida. That would be enough for him to win.

286

The same group of folks who berate unemployed people for drawing benefits or say that we should cut benefits to people on Social Security during this recession or depression or whatever the fuck we're in are going to risk the poorest tax payers having their rates increase 50% so that millionaires' rates don't go up for a year or two until we take back the Senate and, God willing, the WH?  That's ridiculous. 

Gigantic counterfactual FAIL.

That millionaire designation is a lie.  And not a very elegant one.  Do you know how many small business owners are now lumped into the $250K EVILE rich category now?

And the poorest "taxpayers" already do not pay taxes......

287 It'd be nice if people would put worrying about the '12 election on hold for a while and worry about right now.

We are on the edge of a royal financial screwing -- and several other hideous potential disasters if Reid and Osama Obama get their way -- and everyone's concerned about who's "electable" almost two years from now?

Judged by who is walking the walk, I'd vote for McCain again. He's not tweeting about how awful things are, he's not standing on the sidelines, but has stood up on the Senate floor and remained true to his principles in opposing the flood of waste. Ditto DeMint.

(Not that I want McCain to run again, or wanted him to be the candidate in '08. But at least the old sonofabitch is doing something.)

Think Athens, London, Rome. It can happen here, only with regular people who can take no more of governmental pillaging of their dwindling resources and liberty. And, frankly, if it  happens in D.C. I'm not entirely sure I'd be too upset seeing members of the self-proclaimed royalty at the receiving end of civil unrest. Maybe that would wake the criminal mofos up.

288

New thread plz.

289

1. Mitch McConnell as minority leader.
2. Michael Steele as RNC chair.

Yet, in 2010...we had this cominbation and won. 

Despite them.

290 I think we might as well be talking about 2012 now because the fix is in for the Tax Deal and the Budget.  Harry Reid played the Christmas Card and that is a winner.  The Republicans in the House can compromise and go home saying they forced Obungler to compromise.  Boned again.

291
We won in 2010..

a) in red districts (yay, the universe is back in order!)
b) because the Democrats are radical left wingers

That's not the whole story, but it mostly explains why and how we won a lot of seats in 2010.

292

And the poorest "taxpayers" already do not pay taxes......

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here)

 

To be picky, the poorest do not pay income taxes. They are getting hit with everything from state, municipal and local taxes, sewer taxes, garbage fees, user fees which quietly charge people for what our taxes once supposedly supported, and of course sales taxes and various duties.

293 The U.S. borrowed 43% of its expenditures this year. Does anyone here really expect the Republican Party to make any kind of dent in the runaway debt spiral we are in?

294
2012 will not, in any way, be like 2010.

295 Is there anything in the bill about taking on the problem of fat kids?

296
Actually, Steele is most likely gonna win another term. He would not run again if he didn't *know* he had at least 51 votes.

297 The U.S. borrowed 43% of its expenditures this year. Does anyone here really expect the Republican Party to make any kind of dent in the runaway debt spiral we are in?

Posted by: Old Sailor

 

Do we expect it? The prospects seem to be dimming, and the new Congress hasn't even been sworn in. Hell, the old Congress hasn't yet adjourned.

 

Do we desperately need it? Yes. If taxes aren't increased, and if Republicans kill or neuter obamacare, then there's a chance that businesses will see that grown ups are in charge, and that investment and hiring aren't a suckers bet. That simultanesouly increases revenues (people working and paying taxes and consuming) and decreases expenditures (lessened demand for relief funds).

 

298
We have a 3rd problem, too.

We have Newt Shithead running around calling illegals 'Americans.'

299 I hope nobody listens to Newt anymore. 

300 Actually, Steele is most likely gonna win another term. He would not run again if he didn't *know* he had at least 51 votes.

Posted by: Soothsayer for RNC Chair

He may be burnishing his " there are some that are uncomfortable with me" bit.

301

To be picky, the poorest do not pay income taxes.

Touche'--I should have qualified my remarks.

The fundamental truth holds:  It's the spending, stupid.  And it results in additional burdens on the poor in the case of the regressive taxes.

Conservatives have a fantastic moral case here in addition to the economic one, if we would just grasp the fundamental truth.

302

beer summits and cheap arugula will solve all our problems

303 Hey, if we can get Steele to run for prez in 2012, maybe we can get Newt to run the RNC. Into the ground. And we can all give up and move to Canada. I hear they have great health care and it's free and stuff. Only good news i see here today is there're enough Top Headlines to push Napolitano's stupid face off the page.

304

Well, here is something guaranteed to PISS off all you "moderate" Romney supporters

Sharon Angle and the Tea Party is already gearing up for 2012. If a RINO like Romney is nominated you can bet they will field a third Party candidate.

I have been warning of this for a while. McCain was the last straw for a great many conservatives who are damn tired of voting for "the lesser of the two evils".

One more McCain candidate after years of McCain candidates will be the last straw. The Republican Party will come to an end.

And yes that means OBummer will win. And yes, the country will collapse because it can not take anymore of this shit.

So remember that Romneybots. A vote for Romney is a vote for Obama and a vote for the country to collapse.

305 We have a 3rd problem, too.

We have Newt Shithead running around calling illegals 'Americans.'

Posted by: Soothsayer for RNC Chair at December 15, 2010 12:02 PM (uFokq)

Newt sealed his fate when he got on the couch with Pelosi. All his opponents in the primary have to do is show that picture with the quote of supporting crap and tax. He'll be lucky to get his own family's vote.

306

After 2010--- Sharon Angle should retire to Reno and STFU.

Posted by: Mallamutt at December 15, 2010 12:11 PM (OWjjx)

The same thing can be said for Romney after 2008, except replace Reno with Boston.

307

 

Obama and the demos are calling it a tax cut.  How is leaving the rates untouched and not loweringthem, a tax cut?

I gues the outrageous Tax hikes of the Clinton era arethe norm for our democrats socialist masters.  And the clinton tax hikes are not enough tax-rape for these liars.

 

 

308 1 Jindal in that group is a big disappointment.

As I've said before, Jindal's been a big disappointment as a governor.  This kind of thing is no surprise for a guy who has been a shameless kowtower to and enabler of the disgustingly corrupt Louisiana state legislature.

309 Our betters in the MSM have decreed: They are now to be known as the Obama Tax Cuts.  And they are a good thing.

310 So remember that Romneybots. A vote for Romney is a vote for Obama and a vote for the country to collapse.

No, a vote for a third party is a vote for all of the above.

311 No, a vote for a third party is a vote for all of the above.

A vote for Romney is a vote for driving the base to a third Party.

312 It's still 2010. I'm not "backing" anybody yet. This coming year is the time to sort things out. I want to see who is going to run and what they have to say for themselves. We can fantasize all we want, but the issues and circumstances today will not be the ones we face a year from now. People have good points and bad points. Let them make their case and explain their record. 

313 On C-span, the Dem Senators are reneging on the tax rate and unemployment extension. I am shocked! Shocked!

314 350 On C-span, the Dem Senators are reneging on the tax rate and unemployment extension. I am shocked! Shocked!

Posted by: Museisluse at December 15, 2010 12:21 PM (DTfXb)

Correction: they are voting on an amendment, so far Bayh is the only one who has crossed party lines. I don't know what is in the amendment.

315 A vote for Romney is a vote for driving the base to a third Party.

That's like blaming the family of a suicide victim for forcing him to pull the trigger on himself.

316 Vic at December 15, 2010 12:08 PM (e4sSD) Read your post again and see if you can figure out why those who don't share your awesome worldview couldn't give a fuck what you think.

317 Any chance we can fix the Primary system before 2012 - regional super primaries, giving states that go Red more clout, etc.

318 If he can win it, let him and more power to him.  If he hangs around and backs into it as the power brokers' pick, fuck him. 

319 Posted by: JackStraw at December 15, 2010 12:25 PM (TMB3S)

I think you will find that all you Romneybots are on the losing side of this one, so the rest of us really don't give a flying-shit about anything you have to say either.

You people are as bad as any Paulbot that was ever out there in 2008. Romney does have a record you know. How about ya'll do something different and read up on it.

320 Now, I have never understood this logic. If the base is anti-romney (not sold on that yet) then how is it that Romney, despite being disdained by the base, can win?

The same way McCain won despite the fact that the base hated him. When the election came the base stayed at home.

If the Tea Party thinks it has enough numbers to form a viable third party, yet, how can  they can they not stop Romney from winning in 2012?

Most of them probably don't. And that article doesn't say they are going to form a third Party, Fox implies it. I postulate it from what they, and a lot of other conservatives have been saying in the past.

That was the point of my post. McCain was the last straw.

Expecting to see the strawmen "open primaries". "MFM picking our candidate" and "its Iowa and New Hampshire" in 5,4,3,2,.......

Is it really a strawman? Open primaries probably wasn't as big an issue as some made it out to be but it didn't help. However, the biggest one you left out, the winner take all system. And allowing liberal States to go first is also a big influence. That just fuels the MFM media picking out candidates.

And yes that is a damn issue. They are doing it right now as we speak. That is where the "electability" shit comes from. Pure face time with the media with appropriate questions thrown at them. 

321 The same way McCain won despite the fact that the base hated him. When the election came the base stayed at home.

The base and McCain have a tempestuous relationship, but some of the base most certainly had to vote for him to win the primaries.

Back in the beginning of 2008, we were looking at a whole different set of problems.  The economy hadn't tanked (although the media was running it down) and our big problems were the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

Of all the candidates in the field, McCain was the best candidate for a wartime president.  Neither Huckabee nor Romney had the national security credentials he did.

322 But I'm not mad. Just correcting your perception, you don't speak for the public. As I said, you might want to explain how Romney is polling so well when you insist that he has no chance. Posted by: JackStraw at December 15, 2010 10:46 AM I think he's polling well now, because of perception of him. He's not taking a stance on any issues, so people can assume what they want about where he stands. "He hasn't said anything about X, but I remember when he was out there about Y, so he MUST believe this on X". His polling will definitely fluctuate once he starts actually taking a stance on policy issues. That's where Palin and others who are out there taking a stand have the upper hand on him. They are in the arena and being judged on their positions now. So their polling will only go up or down based on how they compare to other candidates. Romney has to worry about his polling as it relates to his positions he eventually takes and how they will compare to other candidates. It would be smarter for him, in my opinion, to get in the arena now and be judged on his judgement on the important issues of the day.

323 The base and McCain have a tempestuous relationship, but some of the base most certainly had to vote for him to win the primaries.

Very few of them did, and most of them, at least here in SC, were elderly military retirees. He never won much more than 30% of the vote in the primaries until it was all over but he got all the delegates. I look at it like 70% were against him, yet he won.

The base hated him because he hated the base and showed it.

324 Lotta crap there, too bad all of it is dead wrong. Anyway this thread is dead.

325 You've got to give Palin credit. She usually seems to take a stance way before anyone else with an eye on 2012. Whether it's because of her core beliefs or because she is really in tune with the conservative base, either way it's a sign of courage. And that position usually lines up with the conservative will.

326 He never won much more than 30% of the vote in the primaries until it was all over but he got all the delegates. I look at it like 70% were against him, yet he won.

That was 30% in a field of three or more candidates.  It's unlikely any candidate would have pulled in a majority of the vote.

327 "YOU said people hated Romney out of ignorance or malice."

Go ahead and find where I said that. Go, fuckstick, scroll up the page, find where I posted that, and paste it in a comment.
Uhhh, duhhh, you mean you can't?  Dishonest little shit.

328 Last election, the true keyboard conservatives were absolutely sure Fred! was going to be our next President. How did that work out? 

Last election, constitutional conservatives knew it was a long shot to get asshats to support Teh Fred's POTUS bid. He was the only candidate with the constitutional platform. No need asking how all Mittens' "too old to be relevant" and "lacks fire in the belly" worked out.

Above, dead thread, there's a lame, divisive regional definition for where to find "true conservatives".

 

329 Gary Johnson, the two term Republican governor of New Mexico, will almost certainly be running for the 2012 nomination. You might want to add him to your list. He wrote an article *against* the tax deal in the Daily Caller yesterday http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/14/the-tax-cut-bill-is-just-not-good-enough/

330 Here ya go, Lincolntf:

Whether out of malice or ignorance, the majority of criticism directed at Romney mischaracterizes him in one way or another.

That was said by you.  Now go fuck yourself, because you have a persecution complex.

331 If you think pork is bad just think about all the compromises these idiots make amongst themselves in their "if you vote for this bill I support, I'll vote for that bill you support" dreck  Or better yet "if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" crap.

332

Well soothsayer @ #332, if those illegal aliens came to this country from Central America or South America, there is better than 50/50 chance that Newty is right and that they are Americans, many of whose ancestors were native American residents here long before your ancestors got here..

Why do I suspect that Newty's nastiest critics here are Democrats masquerading as Republicans or as Independents?