1 LOL, I posted last week about this. I have a niece who just graduated and now wants to go back because she realized that a degree in poly-science will not get her a job.

Her daddy says fine, but this time she pays for it all. She is now hunting a job.

2 urrrr durrrrrr

3 Don't do it kids!!!

4 You mean we can't all be above average? There's a shocker!

5 Charles Murray is on the case: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/opinion/28murray.html

6 Hey we have plenty of jobs for people with degrees in worthless crap.

7

The notion that "every child must go to college" is slowly being recognized as a complete fallacy

Good.  There's too much emphasis on getting a degree than there is on apprenticeship which can teach you a trade that pays a fair wage.

One of the regional managers at the bank I work for was interviewing several people for teller positions, including a few college graduates.  The only person to pass the exam (which consists of how to hand out exact change and balancing a checkbook) was a high school grad who never went to college.  One of the college grads didn't even know what ethics meant.

8 My degree in Womyn's Studies really helped me after college. Hardly a titty goes by I don't notice.

9 I teach college, and have said this often.

I also work with a lot of middle aged adults who are going to college for the first time.  More than a handfull (native speakers, all) are borderline illiterate.  In the meantime I enjoy watching the value of my own BA tumble over Niagra Falls.  Thanks, open enrollment.

10 The world needs ditch diggers too.

11

Justice.  That's what it is.  The parents are saddling their children with debt they'll never be able to pay for, so the children are returning the favor.

So what if they'll still be digging ditches.  If they make less, they'll pay less for their parents debt burden.

Parents try to eat their offspring - offspring fights back. 

Darwin would be proud.

12 College? Why don't you just be 6'9"?

13 One word.  Plastics.

14 Make it harder and more expensive to get into/go to college so that high school and community college diplomas will mean more.

We won't, of course, since we've created a miniature economy around every single teenager going to college and graduating (and, just like high school, we make the courses/grades mean less to accommodate the dumb ones instead of failing them if they can't keep up, but that's another conversation).

15 Every child does need to go to college. Chiefly because a Bachelor's Degree  is now the equivalent of a High School diploma 30 years ago. The schools are so bad they aren't even employable after high school as they can't fill out an application or maintain focus for an hour straight.

16 I knew that in the 80s - that's why I went for a marketable degree (computer science) in addition to the academic one (physics).

The real problem is that the dream for most kids is not to be able to afford my own place and stuff, but is to be in a rock band or write a best seller - pretty disassociated from reality.

17

The world needs ditch diggers too.

Word.

18 Hey, don't rock our boat!

19 Monty,

One thing I think you are missing is that some people who are chasing degrees are not doing it so they can try and apply for jobs where it says "MBA/Masters/etc? required, it is so you can have a leg up in the entry level (bachelor degree required) jobs.

I am in that situation now. I have considered going back to school to get my MBA in finance. Not so I can start appling for higher end jobs, but so maybe I can start getting some job offers from the entry level ones I am getting rejected from now.

20 The world needs ditch diggers too.

Posted by: Judge Smails at July 02, 2010 01:56 PM (Vol3D)

Yes but know that requires an engineering degree to get an interview.

21 In Soviet Union, the ditch dig you.

22 There are also a lot of sorta fringe types who would be way better served by military service and the skills that can come with that rather than college. With the skills I'm learning in the Army now it will be a breeze to make bank very easily after I get out.

23 A very good friend of ours earned his PhD last year and a few weeks later lost his job at a local college.  He's been job hunting the last several months, and his wife is supporting both of them...barely. 

24 One of the college grads didn't even know what ethics meant.

Ah. Pre-law.

Or maybe poli-sci.

25 *waves to Dr. Manhattan*

26

>>> The schools are so bad they aren't even employable after high school as they can't fill out an application or maintain focus for an hour straight.

And your answer to that is.....college?

BWAHAHAAA..........oh my sides.........

27

Taught high school chemistry for ten years. A high school diploma doesn't even mean you can read, and it's been this way for a while. It's almost to the point that we just hug them and hand them a diploma at the beginning of ninth grade.

Any public school teacher can tell you some scary stories.

28

Eureka!  I've got it!  The answer to the economic problems of the country!

We, as taxpayers, should voluntarily assume the obligations of the public unions that the federal and state governments can't pay.  Here's the process:

1) We pick up the tab for union retirements

2) ...

3) ...

Ok.  There are some bugs to work out.

 

29 The schools are so bad they aren't even employable after high school as they can't fill out an application or maintain focus for an hour straight.

College life isn't going to do anything to improve Junior's RRR skills or his ability to maintain focus.  Going to college to recover from an inferior secondary education is like getting married to solve the problems in an abusive shack-up relationship.

30
 a trade that pays a fair wage.

Plumbers pull down mid-six figures, but it's shitty work.

31

Monty,

When are you opening "Monty's School of Pole Dancing For Wayward Women"?  That's a great tradecraft to learn for all the young ladies disillusioned with higher education.

32 The problem isn't chasing dreams.

The problem is the government and parents enabling people to chase their dreams and get bailed out when their dreams run into reality.

When 'chasing your dreams' also means a very real risk of failure and ending up homeless and hungry, many people will decide to do something useful.

33

Every child does need to go to college. Chiefly because a Bachelor's Degree  is now the equivalent (in some areas) of a High School diploma 30 years ago. The schools are so bad they aren't even employable after high school as they can't fill out an application or maintain focus for an hour straight.

my kids were all very well educated in high skool!

34 Hey Dr. Manhattan, how's EOD school?

22 There are also a lot of sorta fringe types who would be way better served by military service and the skills that can come with that rather than college.

Word.  Not only the skills, but also learning the honor and the "watch out for your buddy" code that comes with military service. 

Let's face it, some people need a Sgt Hulka type to get them in line.

35 It just strikes me that with all the students out there taking huge amounts of debt (that can't be cast off in a bankruptcy, furthermore)...I'm seeing a replay of the subprime mess all over again, only with student debt rather than bullshit bonds. And actually, student debt probably does end up in a CDO of some kind at some point, or at least it used to before Uncle Sugar took the business over.

36 As a financial investment, if you choose a practical degree, possessing a bachelors degree is a decent investment. Past that it is a poor use of money, unless you do something like get an MD,DDS,JD or Online MBA.

37 College was never intended for everyone -- now it's just a fancy High School diploma.  Kids who want to earn a decent living should go into plumbing:  I just dropped $125.00 to have my sewer main reamed out.  Took them about 20 minutes. 

38 I find your analysis simplistic, you undereducated clod!

39 #37 - is THAT what they're calling it nowadays?

40 College debt - for those who can get a job - serves to dampen entrepreneurial impulses as well.

41 So at what point did we start considering a High School Diploma uneducated?
The possessor of an AA as having gone to a trade school?
The possessor of a BA/BS as just finally gotten a basic education?

42 I would have been in school no matter what I expected to find on the other side.  But I have now tailored my education in order to work in government or quasi-governmental businesses now, since it don't take a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

43 Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday! 

44 Our state brags about the fact that they send 2/3 of HS grads to higher education.  Of course, 1/2 of those students have to be remediated in one or more subjects and only about 1/2 eventually graduate.

Somehow, they don't make any connections between those three facts.

45 I agree. One reason why the costs keep rising is the bullshit (bs?) degrees and the more employees associated with it.  Long way to go, but I will encourage my daughters only to take the classes in the study they want to pursue and tell them to forget the degree.  They would be out in half the time and half the cost.

46

I just dropped $125.00 to have my sewer main reamed out.  Took them about 20 minutes. 

Faster isn't necessarily better.  Just sayin.'

47

Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday! 

Congrats!

48

Ot -

Check out this picture of pure evil weasel.

http://tinyurl.com/2caqxfb

You have to admit, it is pretty eerie! (Cue the haunted house music.)

 

49 College helps some of them at least. The point is that if college is going to be where we teach kids basic skills, and for most that is what it is now, then the costs are ridiculous. A Bachelor's Degree is a High School diploma now. Advanced degrees are even worse as they are basically issued to who ever is willing to take on the debt. College has to either be tougher or cheaper. As it is now it's basically extra taxes to qualify for a decent job.

50 I was seriously considering moving from Software Development to Gun-smithing. Too bad one of the best schools is in PA.. I can't find one in NY and I can't travel for hours, or stay in a dorm. I figured with all the guns being purchased, this should be a great job!

51

http://tiny.cc/kabi6

Seriously, it's not just "useless degrees." Even advanced degrees in hard sciences don't mean all that much anymore.

I have two master's degrees, and my girlfriend, a high school teacher, makes more than me.  The science field has turned out to be, at least financially, an enormous disappointment.

52 Dr Manhatten -- EOD is career field with lots of opportunities and few complete losers (self selecting). Remember, initial success or total failure.

53

Totally agree.  When I was in jury duity, a lady told me her son god his degree in finance, couldn't find a job, and so went to law school.  That was the end of his decision making process - just can't find a job so go to school and assume everything will be ok.

No examining the cost vs. benefits of the degree.  No estimating how to get a job as a lawyer.  Nothing but postponing the job search.  For fun, I googled it up, and it only took about 10 minutes to learn that absent an ivy league degree, newly minted lawyers are having a hard time getting jobs, and those who do aren't making enough to justify the cost of school, let alone the 3 years absent from work.  Heck, wait tables for 3 years and keep looking for a job in the meantime, and you'll be way better off than going to law school!  And this research took me 10 freaking minutes!!!

If they can't find work in their fields, what if these kids joined the army?  Or does that make too much sense? 

54

Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday! 

Awesome!  And sincere thanks and godspeed to your Marine.

 

55 Just one word.  Hobo supplies.

56 This can only mean expanding colleges and more teachers in our future. It's one of the few growth industries left in the USA. Professional students indeed. I had breakfast with a Swiss couple while vacationing in Europe a couple of years ago. They said that their education system was fabulous. There was just one problem. Once students finished school, there was no where to work unless they were from one of the "right" families. Mmmmm...mmmmm...mmmm!  

57 (bs?)

The practical skills and knowledge gained by being able to put that 'S' on there rather than the 'A' is very worth while.

58 I can tell you that I have debt from a master's in business and I am in my 40's dealing with this recession.  However, my prime earning years are ahead of me - not behind me.  I know that once I get into my mid-40s and 50s I will be earning more than I did in my 20s and 30s.

59 43 Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday!

Congratulations!  Godspeed to him. 

60

Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday! 

Let him know that a lot of people who don't know him are deeply grateful for his service!

61 If a kid is going to take on (non-dischargeable) debt to get a sheepskin, it should at least be in something where the acquired knowledge gains them a career path with barriers to entry.  Engineering, math, physics, etc.  The last thing the world needs is another slapdick with a business or sociology degree.

62

I'm investing in call centers.  We will need operators to take customer calls from successful economies who aren't embarassed by their success, like India and China.

Can't loose.  Franchises available.

63 Yeah, I know an S is better than an A, it just struck me for a smirk as I was typing bullshit.

64 Obama claims prize

In a last minute surge, the Obama administration narrowly defeated Russian arithmeticians in the battle of the Poincaré conjecture.

Using the squaring the cube root of imaginary j(obs), suggested by the team of Nancy Peelooski and Paul Krguruman, the puzzle was solved without requiring the use of any mathematic fundamentals.

On the administrations request, the next puzzle with be dubbed the Cloward-Piven Stratergegy.

65 Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday! OOOOO-RAH!

66 I know that once I get into my mid-40s and 50s I will be earning more than I did in my 20s and 30s

Yes but if you adjust that time for NPV, especially considering contributions to retirement, that time in your 20's and 30's had a lot more value than immediately apparent.

67 Don't tell me I got TWO in grad school.  No jobs? keep getting degrees.  Next law school?  Obama needs more lawyers.

O/T
Yankees can't figure out that if you don't use traps to KILL coyotes, they will show up and try to eat your kids.  

Guess we'll see some leg traps in Rye, NY pretty soon.

http://tinyurl.com/24ypqa8

68 That's one of the reasons I'm not continuing on to get my PhD: by doing so I price myself out of the market.

Also, anybody with a PhD in agricultural economics winds up having to do work in academia before you work in the private sector (it's convoluted and idiotic, but that's the way the profession works).  I don't want that, because I consider many of the pursuits I see professors taking on to be abject and complete wastes of time.

69

A college degree is really a certificate of completion for a curriculum of work. The value of a college degree is that it shows the world that the graduate can commit to a curriculum, embark on it, and complete it.

Unfortunately, most graduates miss this value, thinking instead that a college degree means they're smart. That's the real fallacy.

70 I know that once I get into my mid-40s and 50s I will be earning more than I did in my 20s and 30s Those are also prime spending years

71

Screw You.  All of you.  Expect those of you that might have a job for me.

Sincerely,

Ca.  Red, M.D., J.D., Ph.D., MBA, BS, AA

72 I have two kids. One started college and is going to be a sophomore. Already, talking law school. Told em grad school is on their dime. They want to pay for it, they can go into debt over it. Kid #1 had scholarships to lesser schools, but went to a "name" school. Will their job pay them the difference in wages over the course of their life? Don't know. Second kid is in high school, looking at colleges. Only concern is getting out in 4 years at the cheapest price with skills to get a job. Once she's worked, then an MBA. for the record, I went to a community college, state school, made a bunch of money, got my MBA at a name school and seem to be okay. Community college is a good thing if done correctly.

73 Feminism, open borders, managerial culture, globalization... pretty hard to make an honest living and support a family these days.  But hey, Apple just came out with a new gadget and things have never been better!

74 Are you kidding? I just got my first real job, and that was in a down market I inherited.

75 Part of the problem is that companies don't promote employees who excel from the line into management anymore. So you have to have that piece of paper to move past the 3rd rung of the ladder no matter how talented you are. Which gives that piece of paper way more weight than it deserves.

76

Prof Gates, Kid #1 went to the cool school because you removed the cost from the consideration.  He wasn't paying for it, so why shouldn't he?

My dad said he'd be glad to pay for a 4 year state school.  If I choose to go to a "cool" school, the difference was my cost.  If I got a scholly, I got the difference.

Think I'll do similar if my kids go to college.

77

Screw You.  All of you.  Expect Except those of you that might have a job for me.

Sincerely,

Ca.  Red, M.D., J.D., Ph.D., MBA, BS, AA

FIFY. Should have got a GED while you were at it.

78  Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday!


Oorah!!

The Marines are the only US Service to have the rank of Lance Corporal. Why? Because they take their enlisted ranks seriously.

79 Earlier one of Ace's morons co-bloggers linked an article where several graduates couldn't get employment because their degrees had nothing to do with real (i.e. non-academic) jobs, except for the one that happened to major in engineering.  The quandry of course, was now they were going to have to pay back all those student loans with a degree that there was no real demand for.

Their solution was equally brilliant: go for the advanced degrees and continue to suck off the government teat through more student loans.

You know, one could probably make a racket out of that, just be a professional student for the rest of your life, die with a massive amount of debt and leave the creditors holding the bag.  Wait, didn't we just pass a law that shifted the student loans to the government?  What could go wrong?

Yeah, I mucked up and originally posted this under the Hatch blog.  Whadaya expect out of a moron?

80 Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday!

Congratulations! Here's hoping the new Lance Cpl and company send many bad guys to hell.

81 Also, anybody with a PhD in agricultural economics winds up having to do work in academia before you work in the private sector (it's convoluted and idiotic, but that's the way the profession works).  Posted by: Boogie

Couldn't you put up a shingle and do private consulting?

82

I used to think I could fall back on my degree in fishing, but with all the Texas Tea in the water down in these parts, I'm not so sure.

83

A big problem is that colleges are no longer institutions of higher learning; they are businesses -- diploma factories if you will.  Of course they are going to recruit, recruit anyone, and the gimmick will be "you can't get anywhere without a college education" and "chase your dreams!...which you will not get without a college education".

The colleges will absolutely not give up on this -- because it would mean downsizing a lot of things, if they only took the actual top 10% of every graduating class like the old myth used to be.  And of course trade schools and farmer's/nursing colleges aren't going to go back to calling themselves that -- too pedestrian, and nobody wants to go to a mere trade school anymore (that's the part of the equation that society has to take responsiblity for -- this "everyone is the same, everyone is special" crap has caused a lot of problems).  Yes, it should only be the best and brightest going to college -- but tell that to the need based grant recipient or Chippy van Coddington; both may not be the brightest bulbs in the package, but both have money *from somewhere, the college doesn't care*, and both are what you might call: politically correct and expedient to the image colleges want to project (a middle/working class kid who works their way through, even if they are at the genius level, doesn't have the "cachet" that either of the other two have...and certainly won't have the cash).

How to solve this?  Good question -- because nobody wants to change.  I suppose eventually market forces will hopefully level things out again, but only if that natural progression is not interfered with (aka. good luck with that).

 

84 However, my prime earning years are ahead of me - not behind me. I know that once I get into my mid-40s and 50s I will be earning more than I did in my 20s and 30s. The problem is, in the aggregate, most will never make up for those years they "lost" in school, particularly when you factor in the debt. They'd need to make large multiples of what they're likely to pull down to make up the difference. Let's say you're 28 by the time you graduate with a Masters, or 30 with a PhD. A high school peer has already been working full-time for 10-12 years at that point. Even at a moderate wage, that works out to nearly half a million bucks. Meanwhile, even if you make twice what they do upon graduation, you're going to be behind the 8-ball for years and years, in terms of cumulative earnings. Debt makes this problem much worse.

85 My parents told me just becoming a well-rounded person was worth the tuition costs.  Apparently, becoming well-rounded includes projectile vomiting and how to overanalyze Post-Modern German Necrophila movies. 

86 No examining the cost vs. benefits of the degree.  No estimating how to get a job as a lawyer.  Nothing but postponing the job search.  For fun, I googled it up, and it only took about 10 minutes to learn that absent an ivy league degree, newly minted lawyers are having a hard time getting jobs, and those who do aren't making enough to justify the cost of school, let alone the 3 years absent from work.

The problem with recent law graduates is that they don't know anything that can make a law firm money.  Almost universally, first year associates lose their employers money - many people say that new lawyers don't start making money until after year three.  Add to this the fact that new lawyers take a lot of time to train (read, time that Partner could be billing) and you can see how a deep recession affects the market for Law School grads. 

87 I have many degrees outside my front door about 90 of them.


Congrats on the kid Janey he's doing well.

88 Roughly 20% of students attend secondary school in Switzerland.  Get that?  20% attend high school which allows them to enter an academic track at a university.  The rest enter apprenticeship type programs -- and this is not just blue collar apprenticeship, it includes apprenticeships in white collar jobs.

But of course, everyone must be "educated" in the U.S.  The problem is that the point of school here is not "education", but "socialization", classification, dumbing down, indoctrination to the idea that the state is the true parent and a myriad of other social engineering goals.

Nothing worthwhile is learned by compulsion.

89

Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday! 

And just in time for the Fourth.Congrats and Godspeed.

90 The problem with recent law graduates is that they don't know anything that can make a law firm money.  Almost universally, first year associates lose their employers money - many people say that new lawyers don't start making money until after year three.  Add to this the fact that new lawyers take a lot of time to train (read, time that Partner could be billing) and you can see how a deep recession affects the market for Law School grads. 

Posted by: Alec Leamas at July 02, 2010 02:25 PM (Tz7Vn)

For some reason, this is just not registering on the ole' sympathy meter.  Inexplicable.

91 In Obamica, job chase you!

92 If someone walks into a bank and asks for a $100k loan for a singlewide trailer, the loan officer would laugh in their face.  On the other hand, one can get $100k for a Womyn's Studies degree with just a signature.  So much for moral hazard.

93


well, Mont, vocational training only matters if there's a manufacturing base. 

QED.

94 Having just completed my first year of grad school, I would also note that grad school is a way to weather the rough job market. The advice I was given when I was applying for grad school was "If they don't pay you to go to their school, don't go." Due to a full ride scholarship and healthy stipend, I'm not facing debt while working toward my doctorate. However, I don't know if this sort of package is found in other areas (I'm in philosophy).

95 A high school peer has already been working full-time for 10-12 years at that point. Some problems; the HS peer has also been spending in the real world for that decade; not living in a subsidized academic bubble living on ramen - and evidence would suggest that the HS peers aren't paying attention to the financial advice offered by the greybeards. They don't save or invest like they should. A financial reality class should be a requirement for a HS diploma.

96 My degrees and my Nobel prize aren't helping my Chakra get relief.

My  global warming is still burning me up.

97

A friend's kid opted out of college -- set up his own computer/tech repair and whatever they do with tech stuff (an arcane and mystical art to me); went one year on a full academic and decided he wasn't learning anything he didn't already know, so took his college money and set up shop.

Guess who did all the software, techie fibbidey gadgit stuff of a major state university in this area because he was "the best"?  Good on that boy says I.

He has wisely decided that he will take tech courses to keep himself up to date and fresh in his field of choice, but that a college diploma wasn't serving him that much good.  Smart lad that one.

My kids are coming to about the same conclusion -- they will get as much college education as possible through the military, but their actual work experience will be what they bring to the employment table -- and they are trying to pick up as much foreign language and computer/tech skills (respectively) as possible.  Looks like the "do as I say and not as I did" lesson was heeded a bit after all -- thank God!

98 what he said:

s it any surprise the real estate market is not recovering? This great sham perpetrated on the American middleclass by Obama and his Liberal ilk has done everything possible to destroy any semblence of recovery....

 Case in point: Everyone says jobs! We need jobs! And Obama and the Liberals shove government healthcare down our throats... Um... where's the jobs? Give Wall Street $B's ... Um... where's the jobs? Um ... Regional Banks are dying ... small business are dying ... Wall Street surviving ... Um ... where's the job? Obama claims "victory" with the Stimulus. Heck, even Joe Biden went on a Propaganda Tour claiming millions of jobs were "saved" and/or created .... Um ... where's the jobs? Just read a report on the construction job results ... The Stimulus was to create millions of jobs in construction ... construction jobs are down 70% ...

Remember all those training programs for the "green wave" .... Um.... where's the jobs? The "recovery" numbers are beginning to level off ... This indicates the "recovery" was nothing more than "stock replenishment" ... which is short-lived and never, ever generates long term job recovery ... And Obama is now talking "Immigration Reform" ??? Obama dances around every important issue in America and accomplishes nothing ... then lets all his Blind Believers out there to push the blame game button.... Where are all them choo choo train riders now ??? The ones that were going to ride the train to wealth and prosperity beyond their wildest dreams? The ones that said the "number crunchers" don't know squat ... Where are those pumpers now?

Obama has done absolutely nothing to fix this economy. Has done nothing to stop jobs loss. Has done nothing to help the small business economy. Has done nothing to incent job creation to help the American middleclass. Obama actually has pumped $B into Wall Street resulting in huge Wall Street paychecks that translate into nothing for the American middleclass. Obama has imposed his version of healthcare reform on the American middleclass resulting in huge profits for the healthcare industry and higher expenses for the American middleclass. Obama has imposed more jobless benefits onto the American middleclass and has done nothing to create American jobs which has resulted in a higher national debt .... How much more does the American middleclass have to endure before Obama is stopped????

99 Due to a full ride scholarship and healthy stipend, I'm not facing debt while working toward my doctorate. However, I don't know if this sort of package is found in other areas (I'm in philosophy).

No offense, but why in hell would anyone pay somebody to get a doctoral degree in philosophy?  I'm honestly curious.

100

Is there a major for tax collection? 'Cause that's gonna be a huge growth market shortly.

101 EOD School is amazing. I'm graduating from the 10 week Phase 1 prep course the Army does next friday. Of the 18 people in our original class only 7 are graduating with me. In a month or so I'll be on the oily beaches of Destin, FL at Eglin AFB starting EOD School proper, which will be over 30 weeks long. It's gonna be very stressful, but I believe I have what it takes. I was born to do this shit. Next week we are going to be driving all of the robots and pretty much smokin' and jokin'. The testable portions of Phase 1 are over. By the way...all my Infantry School buddies up at the Special Warfare Center at Bragg got selected for SF (except for a couple) and they have completed CLT. Next for them is language training. Things are going well for us.

102 You know why they called her Tipper? 

She could only take the Tip of my manhood.

Dat true, really, axe Barney.

103
The sad state of higher ed is the fault of Disparate Impact Theory.  Equality of outcome is enshrined in our law when it comes to hiring decisions.

Requiring a four-year degree for employment has not been challenged, and it remains the best way for employers under the purview of the OFCCP to keep the number of "protected-class" qualified applicants in the denominator small.

These employers are required to self-report their numbers annually.  For many employers, eliminating the four-year degree requirement would guarantee unwanted attention from Uncle Sam.

104 Honestly, I'd prefer to see my son go into a trade.  Plumber, electrician, etc.  Get to Master status, go out on your own, build a company.  That's the real ticket to wealth and security in this country.  Actually producing.  We homeschool, so he'll get plenty of accounting, finance, econ, etc.  If not that, then perhaps a stint in the military.  Damn good resume builder and valuable skills.

105

OT -

Mechanical voice, "Pull up!  Pull up!"

http://tinyurl.com/243ns4c

Summer of recovery?  Bullshit.

You know, with the oil spill in the gulf, they could have hired a million people, paid them $15/hour each month for ~$2.5 billion a month.  A million people in this economy would make a pretty good dent.

But who am I?

via Instapundit

106

well, Mont, vocational training only matters if there's a manufacturing base. 

What he/she s'moron said.

When I took Machine Shop class in high school, I was working in machine shops during the summer, making more than minimum wage and having a really good time working with my hands. I learned more about physics by working around metal than I think I would've learned in college. Yeah, it's not clean work, so what? It's a gear head's paradise.

Naturally, I wholeheartedly encourage the return of our manufacturing sector. It provides some needed diversity to our job market. And it's not just machinists that are needed, but welders, painters, draftsmen, drivers, and engineers too. The demand for the things of modern life is increasing with the population. We're stupid for not cashing in on that opportunity.

107

I've said it here before...dropping out of college and subsequently getting kicked out of the house at age 22 was the best thing that could have happened to me.  

 

108

"I think that we as a country have to re-think this whole "chase your dreams!" idea that we've been feeding kids, because let's face it, their "dreams" are often unrealistic and unlikely to lead to a decent career."

Exactly! We delude people into thinking "Follow your dreams" is an economic law that trumps supply and demand. Doing what you love works, if it also happens to produce something someone is willing to pay for, otherwise it's called a hobby and you need either a day job or dramatically lower expectations of your quality of life.

109 My youngest wants to study art.  I told her she could only with a major in business. 

110 Dr. Manhatten -- In a month or so I'll be on the oily beaches of Destin, FL at Eglin AFB starting EOD School proper, which will be over 30 weeks long. It's gonna be very stressful, but I believe I have what it takes. I've spent a lot of time down there over the last 20 years - don't let some of the base attractions distract you - your judgment is being evaluated at all times, not just in class or during practical training.

111 Proud Poli-Sci major with a job.

In IT, of course.

112

105 I chased an MBA in 1984 soon after graduation when Louisiana was the last to get out of the recession and job poor.  I got a job as a graduate assistant doing research papers and making less than 400.00 a month.  I think it was lucky for me that I so disliked the academia crapheads I worked for that it made me forego my pursuit of an MBA and move to NYC to make it big.  Well not big but I did land a job as a CVS store manager.   Woo Hoo! 

Dude, when did getting a good job and providing for a family become such a FREAKING LETDOWN to society!??!?!?!?  Managing a CVS store is important and useful, and a good thing.  Part of the problem is people seem to be embarrassed by accompishments our grandfathers would have envied!!

My grandfather was a welder, never graduated high school (did get his GED) and was one of the smartest and wisest men I ever knew.  I became an accountant, which made him very proud.  I am very proud, even though I didn't become a rock star, NFL QB, supermodel, or General Manager of a Major League Baseball team. 

Can we, at least, celebrate accomplishment even if hollywood isn't going to make a movie about our profession?  Can we, at least, take pride in what we know to be jobs well done?

113 Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head Several reasons. First, a doctorate in philosophy is directed towards teaching at the university level. It's job training for being a professor. Secondly, philosophy is an important field (just look at the shit we're in because of stupid people who don't have the correct principles of political philosophy). It's key to being a well rounded, informed person. And fortunately for those of us who sit around and think all day (and read and read and read and write and write and write...and then take a break to check our favorite blogs), there are rich people who recognize the importance of philosophy and give us money to pursue this career. Third, if you don't fund grad students, you're not likely to get many takers. Only the rich--and not necessarily smart--will be able to earn graduate degrees in philosophy. All the smart young people who don't have piles of inheritance will recognize paying for grad school via debt is a losing proposition and will go elsewhere. Therefore, by subsidizing students, you can get better students, whose success increases the prestige and reputation of the department, which in turn means more funding.

114 MikeO -- Shhhhh

115 In Soviet Union, you dig the ditch and then you fill the ditch.

116

Dude, when did getting a good job and providing for a family become such a FREAKING LETDOWN to society!??!?!?!?  Managing a CVS store is important and useful, and a good thing.  Part of the problem is people seem to be embarrassed by accompishments our grandfathers would have envied!!

I think it all boils down to being able to brag on your kids when you go to family and class reunions.  Pursuing a Masters in whatever sounds much more impressive than managing a CVS store. 

We told our kids they could flip burgers for a living if they were happy and weren't a societal sloth.

117 at 113 - that was off -base attractions

118 which in turn means more funding. taxpayer money taken at the point of a gun.

Sorry.  Why do people say "funding" when they mean "money"?  Billions upon billions of taxpayer money is poured into state university systems, and billions more is extorted from kids and their parents to prop up a pension system for non-producers.  There's even a government department whose sole purpose is to sell dreams to people and provide the financing.

Yes, higher education can be very important to a person, and to society as a whole.

But 90% of what is taught in colleges and universities is not higher ed, it is bullshit.  Remedial classes for Johnny because the fucker can't read, so he can get his Fitness Ed certificate and make 80k a year with full pension and benefits teaching 3 rd graders to play dodgeball.  That's my fucking money!

119 The problems with academia are legion.  Required diversity courses, wussy majors, hell look at all the crap you need to take to get a CS degree.  The Chinese and Indian students don't have to deal with that.  If they take electrical engineering, that's what they study.  The high school courses are taught in high school.

And students who fail don't even finish high school, they go to trade school.

And with all of this, our colleges and universities still work better than American public high schools.  I blame education colleges, which are more than useless, they are pernicious.

120 I think this sums up the way this thread views grad students' attitude (and with good reason): http://www.phdcomics.com/store/mojostore.php?_=view&ProductID=6093

121 Dr. Manhattan,

Stay alert during training sessions it might save yours and your fellow soldiers life, I'm proud of you Soldier.

122 @57 - When I was getting my Comp Sci degree, the circle of friends I rolled with referred to the BS as a B$ and pronounced it "B Dollar Sign". The BA's sitting in front of us during commencement were pretty bothered by our preferred nomenclature.

123 If you get a degree in hard science or engineering, and/or one from a relatively small number of well-known and highly rigorous universities (eg MIT, Caltech, etc), then your investment in your education is likely to pay itself back with interest.

But most liberal arts are crap shoots.

124 Posted by: darii at July 02, 2010 02:43 PM (RdrW

What are "the correct principles of political philosophy?   To the extent that they actually exist, are they taught in college philosophy courses in 2010 in the USA?

125

OT -

Why couldn't Steele say something like this. 

http://tinyurl.com/29rpzo3

He would have been a hero.

HotAir

126

Of course people who are unemployed are going to chase degree's. Take a look at the job adds, they are asking for people whp applie for $12hr jobs to have a BS and 10yrs experience. It's insane.

From the ads, the only way to land a job above minimum wage is to have some specialty skill or degrees dripping off your azz.

127 Speaking of Higher Education, noted PhD in Economics and Nobel Prize winner threatens to punch people who tell him John Maynard Keynes was a charlatan: http://tinyurl.com/36mwccl

128 In Soviet Union, ditch dig you! Posted by: Yakov Smirnoff

The shit I hear now from ObaMedia Decentral is the same shit I heard back in the '60's listening to Vladimir Posner on Radio Moscow.  That's beyond scary.

129 Herr Morgenholz Definitely at public institutions. However, I'm at a small Catholic school, so I'm not sure how much gov't funding my department receives. Moreover, I know that when the economy goes downhill, donations and grants go down and our budget goes down/. In fact, many of the students who applied to my department this term didn't receive any offers of funding in their first year. It's not as if we have a big pipe which dumps large piles of taxpayer money into the dean's office.

130

130 If you get a degree in hard science or engineering, and/or one from a relatively small number of well-known and highly rigorous universities (eg MIT, Caltech, etc), then your investment in your education is likely to pay itself back with interest.

But most liberal arts are crap shoots.

 

Liberal arts degrees teach nothing which a library card and about 2 years of spare time won't teach.  Seriously, you can download the coursework and read through the crap youself and even take exams to test your knowledge.

Liberal Arts degrees are crap, with the only shots being taken at frat parties.

131

Herr Morgenholz, you are not alone in your desire for your posterity and in your plan for his future.

Exactly the same here.

I'm going to push for electrician for my boy, though, since that's really one thing people can't do themselves beyond the basics.

Problem is, he's incredibly smart (no, really, scarily so), plus as you know with homeschool, they're about 3 years ahead by the end, so he'd probably benefit himself and the world with a hard sciences degree.

Long way off.  First need to train him in ballistic coefficients and the Coriolis effect

132 134

 

I understand what you are saying but indicating I was ashamed of the job eventually took was not my intention.  Managing a retail store is not why I went to NYC.  I had a BS in Marketing and Advertising and a minor in art.  It was my intention to get a mailroom job in an advertising company and work my way up and would have been proud to have gotten that low level job.  The point I guess I meant is that it probably wasn't necessary for me to move to NYC to get a retail management job.

Posted by: polynikes at July 02, 2010 02:52 PM (m2CN7)

After I started I realized that's what you meant, but by then I was on a roll.

133 135 Speaking of Higher Education, noted PhD in Economics and Nobel Prize winner threatens to punch people who tell him John Maynard Keynes was a charlatan: http://tinyurl.com/36mwccl

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at July 02, 2010 02:52 PM (5aa4z)

Like I said, one million people cleaning up the oil down on the gulf, $15/hr $2.5 billion a month, doing good productive work.

Not breaking glass so it can be re-installed.

Why aren't we doing that?

134 Problem is, he's incredibly smart

I've met some incredibly dumb electricians.  They tend to have a finger missing.

I've met some incredibly smart electricians.  They tend to have half a dozen vans running at any given time, and tend to land large commercial projects.

135 TSgt Ciz - the key is the specialty skill is cheaper to get and usually comes with OJT, so you are ready to go out-of-the-box. The last two Mechanical Engineers we hired were machinists in Red Horse units, who got their degrees at night while deployed. Both are working (at night) on their masters and are a short of 30yo and essentially debt free (other then stupid amount of money spent on their cars).

136 SantaRosaStan, very very few places are teaching correct philosophical principles. And in that respect, much of the money which is being spent on these departments is being wasted on fucking up student's minds. The worst part isn't even the political philosophy, but the moral relativism and anti-realist epistemological skepticism which denies the foundations upon which natural law and the principles of objective truth and human nature are built.

137 Damn, that Krugman is a badass.

138 Definitely at public institutions. However, I'm at a small Catholic school, so I'm not sure how much gov't funding my department receives.

None, I'd assume.  If you were at a Muslim school, or a Black Liberation Theology school, I'm sure it would be a different matter.

But still, private colleges are in the same market.  Most of your students have taken out loans, backed by the government, to way overpay for what they're getting.  It's still part of the same problem.

139 @119 Jean

Heh.  I'm at a crossroads in my career.  Not including the five years I spent in the Army, I've been working in and around government doing IT stuff for twenty years.  My area of concentration since 1997 has been HR.

I've lately been doing work for retailers (far away from the HR side), and getting out from under the onerous government yoke has been refreshing, but I am disgusted when I look back on the years I wasted.  My last bit of government work is scheduled to end come November, and that cannot come soon enough. 

The public sector cannot do jack shit right because the rules are damned near 100% wrong.  Fucking social engineers can all burn in hell.

140

Robert Byrd has already been re-incarnated...........as a cat.

*warning: link slightly nsfw*

141 The worst part isn't even the political philosophy, but the moral relativism and anti-realist epistemological skepticism which denies the foundations upon which natural law and the principles of objective truth and human nature are built.

Translated into moron:  They're spouting bullshit.

142 Herr Morgenholz, In complete agreement on that point. We don't need degree mills. It degrades the quality and utility of incurring a shit ton of debt. I was merely speaking about grad programs as opposed to undergrad, and my department in particular.

143 The worst part isn't even the political philosophy, but the moral relativism and anti-realist epistemological skepticism which denies the foundations upon which natural law and the principles of objective truth and human nature are built. Translated into moron: They're spouting bullshit. Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at July 02, 2010 03:00 PM (5aa4z) +1 WIN!

144

So.  Is Krugman the guy telling Obama whose ass to kick?  Are they both kicking ass?  Are they both kicking the same people's ass?  Are they kicking each others ass?  Why are they each smiling when talking about kicking each other's ass?

Don't wait for the translation!  Answer the question?  People demand to know!

145 MikeO -- I meant shhhh, with regards to the number of "protected-class" qualified applicants in the denominator small. outside of this blog, one can't talk about such things.

146 Translated into moron: They're spouting bullshit.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at July 02, 2010 03:00 PM (5aa4z)

In a required philosophy class, as the department chair was flapping his cocksucker about something in a way that meant absolutely no objective sense (had something to do with patriarchy and women and the way men think.  At least I think it did.) I started to walk out.  He asked me wear I was going.  Told him I was going to go get a sixpack and sit in a cow pasture because I couldn't stand all this bullshit.

147 The worst part isn't even the political philosophy, but the moral relativism and anti-realist epistemological skepticism which denies the foundations upon which natural law and the principles of objective truth and human nature are built. Posted by: darii at July 02, 2010 02:57 PM (RdrW8

thus, you make my point:  Philosophy courses serve almost no useful purpose--and neither do most philosophy grad students.  Your only career path is a faculty position, and those are rare ( and usually reserved for The Usual 'Diversity' Suspects ).

You've read a lotta philosophy texts published over the past decade or so.  They breeze through the Greeks, skim over or barely mention St Augustine and St Thomas, and focus mostly on obscure women before ending up as propaganda on  feminist studies and non-White politicized bullshit theories posing as philosophy.

148 Is Krugman the guy telling Obama whose ass to kick?  Are they both kicking ass?  Are they both kicking the same people's ass?  Are they kicking each others ass?  Why are they each smiling when talking about kicking each other's ass?

Which memo?

149

Miserable in my carerr, and I very much am, at the end of the day I'm just happy that I'm not on someone's deadpool list.

So I've got that going for me.

150 darii: I had a good friend who majored in (IIRC) "Philosophy of the Greek/Roman worlds" or something like that. He got a PhD in it, and of course discovered that the only thing a PhD in philosophy is good for is to get a job as an adjunct professor in the same school you got your PhD in (since no other school wants to incorporate the weird opinions of your thesis overseer into their curriculum). And being an adjunct professor is the closest thing in the modern world to slavery: you get paid shit, they endlessly dangle the (nonexistent, I assure you) hope of tenure before you, and tenured staff dump all their u-g work on you so they can "do research". My friend finally quit in disgust and plays music professionally now. He's a hell of a jazz bassist, and makes more money doing that than he ever did pondering Kant and Heidegger and Hume.

151

153 The worst part isn't even the political philosophy, but the moral relativism and anti-realist epistemological skepticism which denies the foundations upon which natural law and the principles of objective truth and human nature are built.

Translated into moron: They're spouting bullshit.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at July 02, 2010 03:00 PM (5aa4z)

Huh?  Oh... yeah... you're right, of course.

152

Miserable in my carerr

And mostly because I'm a shitty proofreader!

153

Our Dear Leader would still be Precedent if he didn't go to Harvard, wouldn't he?

In all too many cases, it is better to be well-connected than accomplished and qualified.

154 SantaRosaStan, i'm actually specializing in St. Thomas and Aristotle. My goal is to be one of the small percentage of professors teaching good philosophy. I don't disagree with your overall point. Bad philosophy is a waste of time and money in the short term and has terrible consequences for society in the long term.

155

Miserable in my carerr, and I very much am, at the end of the day I'm just happy that I'm not on someone's deadpool list.

So I've got that going for me.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 02, 2010 03:06 PM (pLTLS)

Good on that waitress. 'bout time someone put that surly spoiled rotten scrunt in her place.

156 My view of the "trades" -- machinist, plumber, electrician, FireAlarm/Sprinker, HVAC, APE, factory automation (plc's, motor controllers, sensors, safety stuff), specialty medical techs, medical equipment repair. You want complicated stuff - that has a continuing maintenance requirement or baseline industry that really can't go away.

157 Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at July 02, 2010 03:04 PM (5aa4z)

you overwrote me !!  Have you read Don Quixote ??

158

Hey gator, how was the trip ?

159

160 You underestimate the glaringly obvious non-monetary perk--

Chasing hot collegiate tail.

160 Translated into moron: They're spouting nihilist, post-modernist bullshit.and they're not even very good at it.

The philosophical exercise of boiling down a premise into it's most essential elements.

161 Foul

162 Just one word:  Pelican polishing.

163 MikeO -- I meant shhhh, with regards to the number of "protected-class" qualified applicants in the denominator small. outside of this blog, one can't talk about such things.

Good point.  I'll STFU so as not to ruin it for you. 

Just about every serious problem in this country is caused by the government.

164

IOTW thinks this could be an impeachable offense.  I think the country is still sleepwalking.

http://bit.ly/csxmb

 

165

160 You underestimate the glaringly obvious non-monetary perk--

Chasing hot collegiate tail.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 02, 2010 03:09 PM (pLTLS)

Or as it was in my case, not so hot, but none-the-less easy...

Just sayin'

166 Or as it was in my case, not so hot, but none-the-less easy...

Education majors.  Definitely.

167

Is it me, or does Elena Kagan look like Kevin James' long lost twin brother ?

168 Posted by: darii at July 02, 2010 03:08 PM (RdrW

Good luck:  You're fighting The Good Fight--but it's a Rear Guard action, and you fight surrounded by absurdity and time-wasters

( no Andy Sullivan / Barney Frank allegories, please )

169

Blazer,
Good to be back in what I assume is still the land of the free. Not very much tourism going on across the pond. Got the distinct feeling the economy isn't doing so good. Crazy, right?

8 countries knocked off the bucket list. Can't tax that away, I guess.

Thanks for asking.

170

Is it me, or does Elena Kagan look like Kevin James' long lost twin brother ?

Editor and I nearly threw down on this the other day.

I agree with your take. He's convinced she's more Patton Ozwald then KJ.

171

160 You underestimate the glaringly obvious non-monetary perk--

Chasing hot collegiate tail.

Ugh, some of us would prefer to chase Hermes in GoW3 than herpes on college campuses. 

172 Good point.  I'll STFU so as not to ruin it for you.

On second thought, screw it.

People do not end up working in EEO enforcement or policy positions if they have any basic skills like clue-fucking-one about simple arithmetic.

173

Blazer,
Good to be back in what I assume is still the land of the free. Not very much tourism going on across the pond. Got the distinct feeling the economy isn't doing so good. Crazy, right?

8 countries knocked off the bucket list. Can't tax that away, I guess.

Thanks for asking.

Posted by: gator at July 02, 2010 03:12 PM (aOKEC)

Well its good to have you back. Anyway, you went to Poland, right ? They're really pro-American over there from what I've heard. You get that sense too ?

174 177 Or as it was in my case, not so hot, but none-the-less easy...

Education majors.  Definitely.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at July 02, 2010 03:12 PM (5aa4z)

That, and English.  The English majors seemed to be the lonely ones.  I was culling the herd of the slow, sickly ones.

175

I have a liberal arts degree.  4 best years of my life.  Fucking blast. 

Classes were a breeze, the subject matter was interesting, lots of free time to smoke dope and drink.  Ten years of loans to pay off. 

Then I got a graduate degree in "business." 

AND LOOK AT ME NOW!!!!

When my 19 year old said he did not want to go back for his sophomore year at college, I shrugged.   It's not for everyone.

176 Monty, Yeaaaaaaaaaah. Don't remind me. But giving up on changing the system and educating students isn't the way to win. We need people who don't give up. And, at least right now, I'm willing to take my chances in order to make a difference. Perhaps I'll end up saying "To hell with this" and leaving academia in the end, but I'd rather fight the good fight in an area where precious little is being done. I think that righting our culture requires sacrifice. And I'm willing to do my part. My ultimate goal is to work at a small Catholic liberal arts college, such as where I got my BA (http://thomasaquinas.edu/). There is currently a (albeit small) resurgence of the Great Books curricula, with new institutions popping up. There is hope, although I think the way out of our hole is by reforming elementary and high school education (vouchers anybody?).

177

Is it me, or does Elena Kagan look like Kevin James' long lost twin brother ?

Editor and I nearly threw down on this the other day.

I agree with your take. He's convinced she's more Patton Ozwald then KJ.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 02, 2010 03:13 PM (pLTLS)

I just compared pics of both of them. Maybe if Oswalt and James had a love child together ?

178 Mikeo: The shhhh was sarcastic; silent ways in which business must conform operations to Government mandates is pervasive. You say Government is the root of all of our ills, I say we have to look at ourselves. Government of the people, by the people ...., we got rich, fat, and complacent -- and then got the government we, the people, wanted. Since FDR it's been like giving vodka to an alcoholic.

179 O/T: Big Bad Christie about to go medieval on NJ legislature

"Democrats who control the New Jersey Senate skipped a special legislative session called by Governor Chris Christie on property-tax limits, as he threatened court action to force them to meet during the U.S. holiday weekend."

180 Speaking of the value of a college edumification: Bubba Clinton says Exalted Cyclops Byrd joined the Klan "to get elected," and was just a good ol' Suth'n Boy/patriot/Great American Leader.

Dyslexic much, Billy Jeff? You're readin' history backwards, boy.

The now-room-temperature old racist buzzard left the Klan because he realized those pesky dark folks continued to vote, no matter what he told them to do. He knew he could stay in his pork-lined office more easily if he made them think he was on their side.

He sure fooled Osama Obama, didn't he?

But then, the Traitor-in-Chief is the biggest fool to ever rise above the position of burger-flipper in this nation's history....

181 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at July 02, 2010 03:13 PM (9hSKh)

That's either sarcasm or irony, or you need to get out more ( and get more )

Name a better place than college to meet chicks...........

182 96 Having just completed my first year of grad school, I would also note that grad school is a way to weather the rough job market. The advice I was given when I was applying for grad school was "If they don't pay you to go to their school, don't go." Due to a full ride scholarship and healthy stipend, I'm not facing debt while working toward my doctorate. However, I don't know if this sort of package is found in other areas (I'm in philosophy).

Posted by: darii at July 02, 2010 02:29 PM (RdrW

So who exactly IS paying for you to sit around and think? The undergrads? Obama's stash?

183 As a liberal arts major all I can say is: I probably should have stayed on the vet school track (was sidelined by the temptations of getting to fuck off more during my free time -- or make money; I made a lot of money while I was at college); and at the end of the day I'm very glad that I can drive a truck and operate heavy machinery.

184 You underestimate the glaringly obvious non-monetary perk--

Chasing hot collegiate tail.

When they're all taught to be man-hating lesbocommunist bitches, why bother? (your campus mileage may vary)

185 I know the "we need ditch diggers" line is a good one, but aren't most how many ditch digging jobs are there? And isn't ditch digging exactly the kind of "shovel ready job" that the stimulus was supposed to create? /sarc

186 urrrr durrrrrr

Posted by: Typical kid getting "advice" from advisors at July 02, 2010 01:52 PM (ZMrgd)

Of course, the crap said "advisors" shell out is no better.

187 192 O/T: Big Bad Christie about to go medieval on NJ legislature

"Democrats who control the New Jersey Senate skipped a special legislative session called by Governor Chris Christie on property-tax limits, as he threatened court action to force them to meet during the U.S. holiday weekend."

Posted by: Garbonzo the Garrulous at July 02, 2010 03:17 PM (N/7an)

Uuuuuhhh yeah!  Gov. Christie - dictator of New freaking Jersey!

I am sooo down with that!

188 Posted by: Tiffany at July 02, 2010 03:16 PM (E+/tl)

Medical, definitely.  And you don't have to get your RN.  I know that in Ohio, there is a notch down called a Licensed Practical Nurse, LPN.  They do just fine and don't put up with quite as much bullshit as the RNs

189 Any advice?

Posted by: Tiffany at July 02, 2010 03:16 PM (E+/tl)

work for the gumint--seriously.  Everyone goes home at 4:30.  No overtime, good benefits, overly-generous retirement.  If you aren't good at your particular job, they can't fire you

190

Poland, right ? They're really pro-American over there from what I've heard.

Poles are great, and they know the ravages of communism all too well. They are of the moron persuasion. Everyone should visit Auschwitz once. Got Dachau in, too.

Of course, according to the RoP, it never happened.

And, I'm getting a John Candy vibe from Kagan. Or a pretty Hillary.

191

Name a better place than college to meet chicks...........

Posted by: Shia LaBeouf at July 02, 2010 03:17 PM (JrRME)

Out front of Val-U-Rite?

192

When they're all taught to be man-hating lesbocommunist bitches, why bother?

Oh come now.

We all know that only the homely looking fugly ones end up that way. Limited options and all.

193 Speaking of the value of a college edumification: Bubba Clinton says Exalted Cyclops Byrd joined the Klan "to get elected," and was just a good ol' Suth'n Boy/patriot/Great American Leader.

Dyslexic much, Billy Jeff? You're readin' history backwards, boy.

The now-room-temperature old racist buzzard left the Klan because he realized those pesky dark folks continued to vote, no matter what he told them to do. He knew he could stay in his pork-lined office more easily if he made them think he was on their side.

He sure fooled Osama Obama, didn't he?

But then, the Traitor-in-Chief is the biggest fool to ever rise above the position of burger-flipper in this nation's history....

Posted by: MrScribbler at July 02, 2010 03:17 PM (Ulu3i)

Yep, Bubba said Byrd had a " fleeting association with the Klan" as he eulogized him. Why bother to even mention it unless of course you felt it necessary to distort the facts and portray a scumbag as something other than the turd he is? How does one become a 'Kleagle' and 'Exalted Cyclops' and only have a fleeting association with that organization?

No mention that over twenty years later when that dark period in the chapter of his life was supposedly far behind him, he also filibustered the Civil Rights act as a Democrat.

194 Name a better place than college to meet chicks...........

Posted by: Shia LaBeouf at July 02, 2010 03:17 PM (JrRME)

Hellz yeah!!

195 Randy, I have no idea of the exact percentages. I like to imagine it's rich old people with a soft spot for philosophy who will drive up one day and give me a car and a nice apartment. But it's not likely. Probably a combination of undergrad tuition and grants and donations. We have a very small department (about 12 students all together).

196 darii - if your looking for ideas, may I suggest a seminar series for Catholic elementary school teachers. Some of them need a little philosophical touch-up paint. (Their public school counterparts are total wrecks.)

197 But what's a good career for a female to get into without having to go to school for a long time? What do you have an aptitude for? Not "what do you like to do", mind you, but "what do you have an aptitude for". Don't look down your nose at things like shift manager of a shop or restaurant. They pay reasonably well, and it's good experience. If you're good at your job, you can move up, too. You can try the insurance gig. All you need is a cert (about 20 hours of training, last I checked) and you can either work for someone else or hang your own shingle. Bookkeeping is another avenue if you're reasonably good with numbers. Small businesses and churches generally don't like to keep a full-time bookkeeper of their own, but will pay pretty well for a part-time gig. You can usually work from home, and your investment is pretty low (software, certs, and licenses). If you like people, then don't sneeze at the retail route. There's nothing wrong with it, and if you're good at your job you can move up pretty quick. (Just avoiding being drunk or stoned when you show up for work puts you ahead of about half of your contemporaries right off the bat).

198

Out front of Val-U-Rite?

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at July 02, 2010 03:21 PM (r1h5M)

...a better place to meet chick w/o the 'van and duck tape' aspect

199

Yep, Bubba said Byrd had a " fleeting association with the Klan" as he eulogized him. Why bother to even mention it unless of course you felt it necessary to distort the facts and portray a scumbag as something other than the turd he is? How does one become a 'Kleagle' and 'Exalted Cyclops' and only have a fleeting association with that organization?

 

Andy Levy had a great tweat about that--

So from what I gather, the general feeling among the speakers at Byrd's memorial is "sheet happens."

200

...a better place to meet chick w/o the 'van and duck tape' aspect

Posted by: Shia LaBeouf, mega-star at July 02, 2010 03:23 PM (JrRME)

Oh!  I see!  Now with the conditions!

201

So from what I gather, the general feeling among the speakers at Byrd's memorial is "sheet happens."

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 02, 2010 03:24 PM (pLTLS)

heh. Or more like: What happens at the Klan rally, stays at the Klan rally.

202 All my defense of good graduate philosophy programs isn't to say doesn't mean there aren't people who have absolutely no reason to be here. I know one student who is getting full funding and doesn't even care about the subject matter. I'm not sure why this person is even here. It's a waste of money that should be going to students who actually care about teaching students good philosophy.

203 Jean, Great suggestion!

204

Mel Gibson in........



Mad MaKKKS 4: Beyond Darkie Dome

205

Only go to graduate school if the school provides you with a tuition waiver and a stipend (research or teaching).   Do not take loans. 

Competition for those paid positions is rough right now.  And it repeats each year (sometimes each semester).  A friend just was accepted into a mathematics Ph.D. program with full ride for this Fall.  Won out over 84 other "final cut" applications.  She is into topology or somesuch with 15 peer reviewed papers (5 as first author) published. 

If you are really into your topic matter and can compete for the limited paid positions then go to grad school.  Otherwise you are simply a sucker.

/didn't read the thread

 

206 18 Hey, don't rock our boat!

Posted by: Sallie Mae at July 02, 2010 01:58 PM (Xsi7M)

I own you.

207 Secondly, philosophy is an important field (just look at the shit we're in because of stupid people who don't have the correct principles of political philosophy). It's key to being a well rounded, informed person.

Yeah, sorry but that sounds like a lot of bullshit.  My bet is that the current administration has more philosophers and highly educated thinkers than any administration in US history.  It's not like this is a new field of study.  When do the 'correct' principles start to kick in?

I don't blame you for pursuing this career path, sitting around thinking and reading blogs all day sounds like a cool job.  I would be tempted to join you but I'm already pursuing graduate degrees in both online poker and Call of Duty.  Fortunately my full-ride beer pong schollie allows me to really focus on school instead of having to find some worthless shit job make ends meet.

208

We all know that only the homely looking fugly ones end up that way. Limited options and all.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 02, 2010 03:21 PM (pLTLS)

yep--This is the 'Elena Kagan' factor, a well-known fact of life.  Attractive women somehow, mysteriously, amazingly but overtly.........are hetero.  Any guy who uses the Lesbo Defense to explain his lack of success with women is Lame

209 I'll admit that one reason I went back to get my doctorate was that my "______ studies" undergrad major was not getting me jack job-wise.  Five years after graduating undergrad, I had a pretty good job --but nevertheless a job I should have had five years before.  I was determined not to repeat past mistakes and got a business degree.  If I can nail tenure, I'm golden.

210 lacey, all politicians have long pointed to guys like Byrd when one of their indiscretions is noticed and note how anyone can be recycled.

211 173 Just one word:  Pelican polishing.

Posted by: Mr. McGuire at July 02, 2010 03:10 PM (QKKT0)

I love for masseuses to polish my pelican, IYKWIMAITYD.

212 You say Government is the root of all of our ills, I say we have to look at ourselves. Government of the people, by the people ...., we got rich, fat, and complacent -- and then got the government we, the people, wanted. Since FDR it's been like giving vodka to an alcoholic.

I understand this completely.

213 Perhaps I'm alone, but I think that the reason that we have "degree mills" and that the Left so ardently pushes as many people as possible into college is because, apart from the obvious indoctrination, it prolongs adolescence and delays/indefinitely defers the normal and previously expected course of one's life to include marriage and family.  You're kind of left to indulge in various vices and idleness while your contemporaries are supporting themselves.

It's an artificial environment where crazy ideas can have some purchase, and the morality of students' parents can be undermined. 

214

Jumping in late, but I'm going to throw out that I know a couple people getting Masters because of student loans.  It's cheaper to keep enrolled as an active student in something and keep rolling over student loans than to stop taking classes. 

I know a guy who's on his second masters (after two undergraduate degrees) because he realized that he's so far in debt from student loans that it's easier to go for an extra couple degrees and die (to wipe out his debt) than just work full time and pay it off.

215

Secondly, philosophy is an important field (just look at the shit we're in because of stupid people who don't have the correct principles of political philosophy). It's key to being a well rounded, informed person.

Almost every penniless philosophy or economics major I know has said the same thing. 

There has to be something to it.

216

Past that it is a poor use of money, unless you do something like get an MD,DDS,JD or Online MBA.

Online MBAs are diploma mills.  One has to attend a real program at a real college for a MBA to be worth anything. 

217 i'm actually specializing in St. Thomas and Aristotle

My current guilty pleasure is watching the horrifically written, historically awful The Tudors, which has nonetheless piqued my interest in St. Thomas More. (I'm assuming that you're referring to St. Thomas Aquinas here, though.) Do you know anything about More?  I don't know much about his life beyond what I've read off the back of a holy card Tell me (and, by extension, my Lutheran husband), what, exactly, did Moore have to do with the burning of heretics?  How much was he personally involved, is it known?

nothing that a library card and reading can teach you

In some ways I agree with this.  But my degree is in writing, and that almost demands a feedback system.  It is difficult to improve writing without getting the shit kicked out of you, both by your peers and a prof who knows what he's doing.  You can, but it's rare.  Granted, that kind of prof is tough to find, but that kind of mentorship is, I think, essential.  Mine really pushed me and forced me to stop coasting on the fact that 99% of the population can't put together a decent sentence.  I am convinced that couple of my profs made the difference for me between actually getting published and having a career vs. settling for writing the family Christmas letter. 

218

Oh!  I see!  Now with the conditions!

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at July 02, 2010 03:25 PM (r1h5M)

Life is conditions; and obstacles; and the recurring Stink of Failure; and.......

where's my .308?

219

Think Danny Glover will be a no-show at Mel Gibson's next birthday party?

220 Only go to graduate school if the school provides you with a tuition waiver and a stipend (research or teaching).   Do not take loans.

--Exactly.  That really helped me to cruise through.  The second half, after the initial 2-year fellowship ran out, was tougher, but I still could scrape by, thanks to living and eating bare-bones.

The waiver was worth a lot, since I had to pay out of pocket after I took my job: it cost over $1,000 per credit, so for courses alone the education was around $36,000.

221 Almost every penniless philosophy or economics major I know has said the same thing. There has to be something to it. Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at July 02, 2010 03:29 PM (r1h5M) Heh.

222 --Only go to graduate school if the school provides you with a tuition waiver and a stipend (research or teaching). Do not take loans. --Exactly. Word.

223 Posted by: Filly at July 02, 2010 03:30 PM (ODFjl)

We wuz talking about Aquinas.  Sir Thomas More did not contribute all that much to philosophy, probably because he was busy helping a sex-crazed psychotic meglomaniac govern England

224 Sir Thomas More did not contribute all that much to philosophy, probably because he was busy helping a sex-crazed psychotic meglomaniac govern England

Posted by: SantaRosaStan ( not a fan of The Tudors ) at July 02, 2010 03:35 PM (JrRME)

--Well, he did take a foray into political philosophy with Utopia.

225

My sister-in-law, in college now, has decided to go into nursing. Given Obama care, I'm not sure it's a wise move, but those would be useful skills to have in the family, so I didn't warn her off.

I'm terrible, I know.

226 ....yes, there's 'Utopia' and yes he wrote some other stuff, but as a philosopher he was not a Great Original Thinker but more of a publicist / public relations guy for existing ideas

discuss among yourselves..........

227

yep--This is the 'Elena Kagan' factor, a well-known fact of life.  Attractive women somehow, mysteriously, amazingly but overtly.........are hetero.  Any guy who uses the Lesbo Defense to explain his lack of success with women is Lame

You forgot the Commie Bitch Defense. But you can call me lame; I fell for the Great University of Californaia Swindle....

228 I'm thinking about getting an associates in accounting. Good idea or bad idea?

My sister, Mare, got to our mother's womb first and sucked out all the ability to add in one's head.  She's an accountant.  The CPA was a bitch but she found it totally worth it.  She made some extremely respectable bank while single and a newlywed, and by the time she wanted to become a full-time mom they were begging her to stay.  Now she does taxes for friends and some freelance stuff.  She is very organized, left-brained, and level-headed:  In other words, pretty much built to order for a CPA.  I asked her once how she freaking stands her job and she said, "I like working with people, and it's a satisfying feeling to get the numbers to balance."  Granted, it's a job and not a passion (as my writing is with me.)  But she's good at it, it's fulfilling, and it pays the bills.  As long as there are dyscalculaic people like me, there will be work for accountants.

If this sounds good to you, go for it.

229     I am one of those kids that recently graduated but turned around to get a masters degree. I see a lot of complaining that these darn kids that don't do anything worthwhile in college. When I get my masters I will not be in debt at all. How?
    My undergraduate degree was in Chemical Engineering and I passed the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to start the ball rolling on becoming a professional engineer on my first try. My junior and senior years were full of 16 hour days and 7 day weeks.
    My masters degree is being paid for via a stipend that picks up tuition and gives me enough money to pay the bills. Most engineering graduates are fully supported through various industry contributions or government institutions like the National Science Foundation.
   There are a large number of things that one can do in college that leaves them only slightly better off than sitting at home for 4 years, in my experience engineering is NOT one of those.

230 A college education isn't necessarily just about acquiring job skills and life isn't just about having a good job. The college experience offers lots of unique opportunities especially for young people that can't be had elsewhere. If you simply look at college based on a financial return on investment model, it's probably not a good idea. If you see value in experiences like playing college athletics, travelling and studying abroad, living in a dorm, learning about science, history, philosphy and art, then college can be a good investment of time. These things may not have a direct finacial return, but will enrich a life more that any job ever could.    

231 Sir Thomas More did not contribute all that much to philosophy, probably because he was busy helping a sex-crazed psychotic meglomaniac govern England

Yes, I was wondering if Utopia was considered a major impact or not.  Obviously he's not on par with Aquinas, but I was just curious.

232 It's an artificial environment where crazy ideas can have some purchase, and the morality of students' parents can be undermined. 

Posted by: Alec Leamas at July 02, 2010 03:29 PM (Tz7Vn)

Bleak--but true.  However.........more than a few people who're semi-idle in lib arts grad schools are not all that suited for Real Life, IYKWIMAITYD

therefore, consider the Mental Health Aspect.....

233 Any advice?

Posted by: Tiffany at July 02, 2010 03:16 PM (E+/tl)

Around here (Essex cty, MA) Dental hygenists pull down a v. good salary and are in such demand that they make their own hours.  It's the perfect job for mothers w/ kids in school or anyone that wants to make money w/o doing the 9-5 thing.  (I went to high school w/ a brilliant girl who put herself through art school after becoming a hygenist .)   Hygenists can work for themselves where respiratory therapists usually are affiliated w/ a hospital/institution.  Can't speak for accounting although I know CPAs make a ton of dough.

 

234 Isn't there some sort of higher education bias towards those not on fellowships, who are paying for their own ride? Sort of like - if you were really smart, your dad wouldn't be paying for this ...

235 the morality of students' parents can be undermined.

Although I never lost my conservatism, this happened to me at my supposedly Catholic college.  I never dated in high school and kind of went wild in college. I wish I hadn't.  Took a good decade to get my head re-screwed on.

236

243  Why yes, yes it is, but maybe not in the way you are thinking it is.

Military is a good place to be getting some of those life experiences too -- so is going out on the road and being a journeyman worker (or in my case: journeywoman to be pc about it).

Or hell, you can do all three and really live the life.

237 130 If you get a degree in hard science or engineering, and/or one from a relatively small number of well-known and highly rigorous universities (eg MIT, Caltech, etc), then your investment in your education is likely to pay itself back with interest.

I think the equation is more favorable than that, at least for the advanced degrees. 

As long as your degree is from a "Research I" institution, the degree has value.  A science Ph.D. from any decent state university is a good value.  Frankly, depending on the field, they can be worth more than some of the private universities' degrees. 

If you get a Ph.D. in science or engineering, you are not paying your way at any of these places.  (If they expect you to pay your way, then you are either not a competitive student or it's not a good place to go.)  The degree is "free" for you, plus you get a small stipend to live.  Now, in that time you are making no money and, assuming you do at least one postdoc stint, for a couple of years after that you are not making much of anything, but you shouldn't be in debt.  For me, the hardest part was recovering from the delay in doing the normal things, like buying a house, and the expense of moving several times to follow the career path, but it isn't a debt situation, just delayed earnings situation.

I do have a couple of friends with science Ph.D.s who are out of work, but neither of them is currently willing to relocate so I'm not sure that their unemployment has to be that way.  One is now consulting, the other is a stay at home dad. 

I still think college is a good investment, but there's more of a cost-benefit analysis to do.  If I had kids, they would only go someplace where they could get at least a 50% or greater merit-based tuition scholarship.  What that would probably mean is that unless they were really top students, they would wind up at a state university.  Mr. Y-not and I both went to a small college, but we both had full tuition scholarships.  Looking at what our undergrad alma mater costs now, I would not send my kids there.  I'd definitely go for a state university where they would have a chance to do some real-world learning and/or work on research grade instrumentation. 

238 Yes, I was wondering if Utopia was considered a major impact or not.  Obviously he's not on par with Aquinas, but I was just curious.

Posted by: Filly at July 02, 2010 03:42 PM (ODFjl)

He was a complex man, very much in this world ( attaining a position of vast power and being a very attentive father ) but clearly a Man of Faith.  All that he worked so hard to get, he gave up for his faith.

He is much more important historically than as a philosopher.  'Utopia' could be read as an excuse for the welfare / nanny state by modern readers, although in More's view it would be the application of Christian principles and 'enlightened reason' which would bring about the perfect society

Let's just say he was not prescient.........

--there was a good movie about him made in 1966 or so. 

239 plum, and they get to work with dentists - I'd shoot myself.

240 If you see value in experiences like playing college athletics, travelling and studying abroad, living in a dorm, learning about science, history, philosphy and art, learning to mix hairy buffalo, having unprotected sex with drunk girls you barely know, experimenting with various synthetic and natural pharmaceuticals, exploring the world of music that you can actually see, and learning to vomit more than 12 feet, then college may be for you.

Just a little assist.  You're welcome.

241

Posted by: RubeWaddell at July 02, 2010 03:42 PM (8CEcE)

You have to look at the cost benefit analysis, though. Yeah, college was a blast. I made a lot of friends, had a great time, blah blah blah, but if I'd been thinking "Is this fun worth the money I'm paying for it in tuition, fees, lost time, & interest later?" I don't think I would have made the same choices.

And, I had a good experience and didn't have my college at war with my values and common sense. I didn't get STD's and puke my guts out every week. College is a bad idea for a lot of people even in terms of the intangibles.

242 These things may not have a direct finacial return, but will enrich a life more that any job ever could. If you're gonna clip your parents for $100+ large, you fucking well better get a good job out of it. If you want a four-year "enrichment experience", do it on your own dime. (And by "you", I don't mean you, personally, of course.)

243 Ok, back to paper research.

244 Posted by: David at July 02, 2010 03:41 PM (KIyNc)

My younger daughter got a B.S. in business ( the 'S' required extra math ) from a good state uni in three years.  No student debt because of a scholarship and working at the student bookstore

After two years or so with Merrill-Lame she's got an excellent job with Deutsche Bank.  Set for life..........

Her school keeps pestering her to come back for the MBA, but if it ain't broke----------

245 ...yes, there's 'Utopia' and yes he wrote some other stuff, but as a philosopher he was not a Great Original Thinker but more of a publicist / public relations guy for existing ideas

discuss among yourselves..........

Posted by: SantaRosaStan, expecting the onslaught of More-ites at July 02, 2010 03:37 PM (JrRME)

--I agree, which was why I characterized it as a foray.  He did more as a jurist.  Supposedly he also introduced the word "fact" into the English language.

246 there was a good movie about him made in 1966 or so A Man For All Seasons, based on the book by Robert Bolt. One of my very favorite movies ever. Favorite quote: "Why, Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?"

247 He is much more important historically than as a philosopher.  'Utopia' could be read as an excuse for the welfare / nanny state by modern readers, although in More's view it would be the application of Christian principles and 'enlightened reason' which would bring about the perfect society

--I thought the point of Utopia was More's imagining a "perfect" society had Christianity not existed.  Is that right?

248 The ideal advanced degree program for Morons:

Heriot-Watt University Brewing & Distilling degree programs.

249 darii, this isn't - like Jane G.

250 I've always preferred Augustine's City of God to Utopia, and Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling to both.

251 I've always preferred Augustine's City of God to Utopia, and Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling to both.

I liked Curious George Goes to The Hospital, but Curious George Goes to the Zoo freaked me out.  Recursive as hell.

252 ...and the S&P 500 runs out of gas in the last minutes of trading and closes down nearly 5 points at 1,022.52. Be interesting to see what happens to the futures markets over the long weekend.

253 261 We're going to need someone who can do that at the camps.

254

Name a better place than college to meet chicks...........

Posted by: Shia LaBeouf at July 02, 2010 03:17 PM (JrRME)

Oh rub it in why don't you.

255 darii: I wanted to chime in that I do think that the world needs good philosophers. I just don't think that the Academy produces many (if any) good philosophers. They produce a lot of cookie-cutter academics, but not many real philosophers. Most of the interesting stuff is happening in "applied sciences philosophy" or "philosophy of science" departments: Daniel Dennett, Marvin Minsky, Steven Pinker, Alan Guth, Roger Penrose. And these guys are hard-sciences guys who also do philosophy, not pure-philosophy guys. I think it's a horrible mistake to separate "philosophy" from other areas of life. There is a "philosophy of lawnmower engine-repair" just as much as there is of any other kind, you know. When you learn a profession or a trade, you are learning philsophy -- just the applied kind rather than the abstract kind; which, I would argue, is a far more useful endeavor.

256 Herr, SantaRosaStan, Monty, Filly, and Plum-

Sounds like a shyster law firm advertising on the back of the phone book

yes, "A Man for All Seasons". Saw it in college and it made an impression on me.

My reading of Utopia may be flawed / mostly forgotten, but he was imagining how a society should be if reason and faith worked together.  He was against a dogmatic application of Christianity to government and would have opposed the Puritans if he lived another century or so.

257 Supposedly he also introduced the word "fact" into the English language.

Oh, the left must HATE him.

the morality of students' parents can be undermined.

Although I never lost my conservatism, this happened to me at my supposedly Catholic college.  I never dated in high school and kind of went wild in college. I wish I hadn't.  Took a good decade to get my head re-screwed on.

Adding on to my comment here. I very much got the most out of my college years-- really threw myself into classes and activities, never took drugs and didn't drink much.  On that score, it was a fantastic experience.  But from the ripe age of 33, I am appalled that my parents were paying 20 large a year for the prevailing culture of an institution to strip away 18 years of Catholic ethics in about a semester. (I had small scholarships and worked as well, but it wasn't nearly enough-- I turned down a full ride to a public school.) This was my fault, of course, but I really am blessed that I didn't suffer more consequences for it.  And I hung on to my political philosophy because I was a Rush baby and a political junkie-- but I can see that if people don't think about politics much and aren't exposed to certain truths, it's very, very easy to come out of college a flaming lib.  There's a difference between healthy challenges and brainwashing.

And all of the above is why if I ever have kids, their asses are going to Hillsdale or Ave Maria University, and if they choose otherwise, they're paying full freight themselves.  Otherwise? They get jobs, like Colt and I did.

258 They all laughed when I majored in blowjobs and ITT Technical Blowjob Institute.

Who's laughing now?  I still have a steady stream of income.

259 It sounds strange, but I think that it's important to sow a few wild oats. There isn't anything more pathetic than a 30 year old still into the "bar scene" or sleeping around or smoking dope or playing WOW or other xbox crap. If you miss the oat sowing, I don't think you know that it isn't the end all and be all of life and sorta always want to do it. If you've done it, then ok--move along. I guess the word is maturation. I did it and then moved on and have no desire to relive it.

260 When you learn a profession or a trade, you are learning philsophy -- just the applied kind rather than the abstract kind; which, I would argue, is a far more useful endeavor.

Posted by: Monty at July 02, 2010 04:11 PM (4Pleu)

Why are most terminal degrees "Doctor of Philosophy"  ???

( SRStan's favorite rhetorical question )

261 If you want to do well, you need to sell something on commission, or run your own business.  CEO's asside, very few get rich working for a salary.

262 It sounds strange, but I think that it's important to sow a few wild oats. Well...except for the herp. And the genital warts. And the accidental pregnancies. And the dirty, dirty videos your boyfriend took "for personal use only" and then uploaded to the internet where it will live on forever. And the incipient alcoholism, and possibility of OD'ing. Lots of guys who did a lot of "wild oat" sowing in the old days ended up dying of syphilis. It's all fun and games until the spirochetes get into the brainstem.

263 If you miss the oat sowing, I don't think you know that it isn't the end all and be all of life and sorta always want to do it. If you've done it, then ok--move along.

Well, that's a good point.  I was at my wildest in college, and if I was going to do that, I guess it's best that it happened within the relatively safe enclaves of a very culturally closed, suburban campus.  By the time I finished my Master's and moved out on my own, I'd toned it down.  I might not have emerged as well off as I did going through the experience in a new city 1000 from home where I didn't know anybody.

264 Well...except for the herp. And the genital warts. And the accidental pregnancies. And the dirty, dirty videos your boyfriend took "for personal use only" and then uploaded to the internet where it will live on forever. And the incipient alcoholism, and possibility of OD'ing.

OK, now making out with a seminarian while my boyfriend was off running a summer camp doesn't sound so bad.

265 It's all fun and games until the spirochetes get into the brainstem.

I make it a point to hire people suffering syphilitic dementia.  I don't do it because I feel sorry for them.  I do it because it's funny as hell watching them try to work.

266

Posted by: MikeO at July 02, 2010 04:29 PM (lBmZl)

I love this site.

267 It sounds strange, but I think that it's important to sow a few wild oats. There isn't anything more pathetic than a 30 year old still into the "bar scene" or sleeping around or smoking dope or playing WOW or other xbox crap. If you miss the oat sowing, I don't think you know that it isn't the end all and be all of life and sorta always want to do it. If you've done it, then ok--move along. I guess the word is maturation. I did it and then moved on and have no desire to relive it.

Posted by: dagny at July 02, 2010 04:21 PM (tfJXq)

[whistling anxiously]

268 Remember, children:

There's a time and place for everything. It's called college.

269 "Sowing wild oats" in the Facebook era, where everyone has smartphones that take hi-res video, will haunt you until you die. Every drunken grope, every bacchanal, every sexual escapade, will be public knowledge in 24 hours and will remain stuck to you like a limpet for the rest of your life. Thank Christ I got most of my stupid shit out of the way before the brave Internet era began.

270 After some serious thinking I have decided to chase neither jobs nor degrees, but to chase tail instead.

271 "Sowing wild oats" in the Facebook era, where everyone has smartphones that take hi-res video, will haunt you until you die.

When I teach tech writing and we get to the resume writing part, the first thing I say is "Do not EVER post ANYTHING incriminating to Facebook if you want to have any kind of decent job."  And they say, "Oh, no, Professor Filly!  What you do is set your account to 'Private!'"  And I laugh and laugh and eagerly await seeing them on Hard Copy.

272 And I laugh and laugh and eagerly await seeing them on Hard Copy. Yep. We had a guy get fired not long ago for some stupid shit he posted to FB. Do people really just not give a fuck about privacy any more? Facebook: the divorce lawyer's best friend, and making private detectives unnecessary for 5+ years!

273 Do people really just not give a fuck about privacy any more?

Oh, sure-- when it gets them in trouble instead of famous.  It's all part of the instant gratification culture:  Think for the now.

274

Jean, Don't know if you are still watching this thread but here goes.

I am currently in college pursuing my degree in Data Network Administration. Every week I see jobs that I am certain I can do when combining my 30 years experience in technology and my 2 years in the DNET CISCO program. I apply for these positions and do not get response one. I've had my resume reviewed several times and everyone agrees that it is well done and should get the attention of any employer looking for a IT/Network person.

I am quite certain the problem is that the employers are convinced that the work force is equivalent to a big fire sale. I was told by one employer that got all the way to the point of writing me an offer letter that upper management said to hold off because they were certain they could get someone with a Masters Degree for the same salary. Why? The skills for the position did not require a Masters. The position didn't even require a Bachelors! But they did get the guy with a Masters. For 50k yr. The same company interviewed me for a $14 hour job and picked a friend with a Bachelors, because he has the BS (pun fully intended). I would far rather be back at work. I'll even take a job for 1/2 of my previous salary (I was exempt). But I can't live on less than that and that is what my unemployment is. So what do you think I will do? Will I take that $10hr job completely unrelated to my 30 yrs of experience in technology, lose my unemployment, and lose my house,, or stay on unemployment and work on that degree?

275 Living crap, that's a tough one.  I'm so sorry you're dealing with this right now.

My suggestion, from someone who's been on both sides of this?  Ride it out and get the degree.  It's still the coin of the realm-- people who are actually on the front lines know that experience far trumps the diploma mills, but the shitheads at HR and in the corner office are still under the BA/BS= smart and competent meme.  You and I both know better, but I can tell you it will take a while for the paradigm to shift in management.

If you're not there already, consider switching to the University of Phoenix or one of the places offering an online degree.  The schedule is much, MUCH more flexible,and you'll be with other, ahem, mature adults--and get it all done faster.  The profs in places like this are told to approach you as what you are, a working adult, not some dumbass 19 year old trying to find himself.  If you want someone else to have a look at your resume who doesn't know you, hit me at fillyatAOS AT g mail.

276 whoops, sorry, that address is:

fillyatAOSHQ AT g mail.

277 Anyone with the capability to ride it out past Nov should do so. If the Repubs take back the House which I think is almost a sure thing the employment picture should start turning around. If a miracle happens and we take both houses the turnaround will be faster and more dramatic.

278

Your twenties and thirties are not your prime earning years. Unless you plan on dying when you're forty.

Having said that, my experience several years ago as a TA convinced me that most people enrolled in college are idiots. I graded hundreds of exams and 95% them sucked ass. These fuckwads couldn't string together a sentence to save their lives. I'm not talking about an occasional misspelled word or odd punctuation error...hell, that stuff happens when you're scrambling to finish an essay exam in forty or fifty minutes. I'm talking about suject verb type shit. Idiots. The 5% of exams that were done well made my heart sing. Light would pour out of the blue book and I'd hear angels singing.

279

@291

Vic,

Good Lord...I hope your right! I heard both sides of that coin, as far as what to expect from new Republican Majorities.

It's funny though, because when you try to talk about this topic with people on the left you typically get the view that's exactly opposite. They think that if Republicans win, then that is the signal that we go into collapse with no question, or they think that Republican get to take credit for Obama's genius.

We are so divided in this country......and I tend with the guy around here that typically says......"In the end it will only be Chaos!"

280 I agree with Ace but what alternative is there? Years ago someone could graduate HS and go right into the workforce. We had manufacturing jobs then. Now what? You need a degree to even be a manager in a fast food restaurant.

281

 I agree with Ace but what alternative is there? Years ago someone could graduate HS and go right into the workforce. We had manufacturing jobs then. Now what? You need a degree to even be a manager in a fast food restaurant.

I blame HR departments. Those busybodies had to come up with ways to justify their jobs while figuring out a way to grow their departments. So what did they do? Put up hoop after hoop for job candidates to jump through. Jeebus, getting a job nowadays is like hitting the fucking lottery. And about as random, too.

282 Good Lord...I hope your right! I heard both sides of that coin, as far as what to expect from new Republican Majorities.

A lot of have said it many times. Most businesses would be hiring now but the instability coming out of this administration toward business regulations and taxes is keeping them on edge.

What continues to amaze me is that a lot of the large businesses continue to support Democrats.  If I was on the board of directors for any large buiseness I would let it be known immediately that any executive whose salary was set by the board who supported Democrats would be up for review immediately.  

283 Years ago someone could graduate HS and go right into the workforce.

You can still do that is you work it correctly. I have a nephew in GA who worked for a large building supply store/chain while he was in HS. He built a lot of creds with them over the years in HS.

After HS he went on full time and was assigned as a "jobber" for home building sites. He was pulling near 100K/yr after the first year there. That lasted for several years until the home building trade fell apart.

He now works for a commercial vendor doing essentially the same thing at a lower salary but he is still working.

Even if you don't go that route you can still go into other areas to learn a trade like plumbing, electrician, auto mechanic etc. Those jobs pay very well and you don't have to go 100K in debt for them. 

284 These fuckwads couldn't string together a sentence to save their lives. I'm not talking about an occasional misspelled word or odd punctuation error...hell, that stuff happens when you're scrambling to finish an essay exam in forty or fifty minutes. I'm talking about suject verb type shit. Idiots. The 5% of exams that were done well made my heart sing. Light would pour out of the blue book and I'd hear angels singing.

(nods)  And I bet you weren't even teaching English, were you?

285 I agree with Ace but what alternative is there? Years ago someone could graduate HS and go right into the workforce. We had manufacturing jobs then. Now what? You need a degree to even be a manager in a fast food restaurant.

I blame HR departments. Those busybodies had to come up with ways to justify their jobs while figuring out a way to grow their departments. So what did they do? Put up hoop after hoop for job candidates to jump through. Jeebus, getting a job nowadays is like hitting the fucking lottery. And about as random, too.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 02, 2010 06:15 PM (P33XN)

--It's simpler than that.  The gummint has outlawed IQ tests as a criterion for filling positions, so companies were forced to use university degrees as a proxy.

286

(nods)  And I bet you weren't even teaching English, were you

I think you and I have had this discussion here before. I was in history, a discipline where reading and writing is sort of important.

I saw the problems when I was a student, too. In one class the professor took me aside after the first exam and asked if he could copy my test and give it to other students as an example on how to write an essay. Most of them had no idea on how to craft an introduction, body, and conclusion.

I remember being in one graduate seminar where we had to turn in a four or five page essay every week. A couple of the students kept getting Cs every week. I could see getting one the first week until you learned what the professor wanted, but to keep getting them week after week was just ridiculous. They didn't belong there.

287 I like Mike Rowe's saying from Dirty Jobs: "Don't follow your dream, bring it with you."  And he was saying it in reference to exactly the same issue as Monty noted.
Dirty Jobs is a great show, and it's been amusing to watch Mike's transformation from a typical San Francisco liberal laughing at the weird people doing disgusting work, to to a practical conservative with a very real admiration for hard work and the people who do it.  He even gets some jabs in at the "greens" from time to time.

288 Dirty Jobs is a great show,

That is a FANTASTIC show.  It's what reality television should be.

It doesn't hurt that Mike Rowe is real pretty, either.

289 Even I, a red-blooded male, can appreciate his good looks--although I'm more in admiration of his lightning-fast wit.  Smart son of a bitch, too.  Some of his little asides are, um, not aimed at the illiterate.
Look for vids of him on YouTube.  There are a few from his days at the Shopping Network that are hysterical.  "Yep, this is a cat bag...look at that...everyone needs a cat bag...it makes this weird noise...I guess cats love it...just buy one, already." (delivered as if he's been up for 72 hours straight and just doesn't care any more, which was probably true).

290 If I lose my job, I'll go to the Isle of Lesbos and study a broad...

291 Our main problems with job outsourcing is VALUE over PRICE. We have workers who are barely educated and want 15 and hour for unskilled work. While some 3rd world turd hole will offer the same worker with a better education for a dollar a day, Where do you think some company is going to go?

Learning how to read should be a requirement for graduation of HS, also we should be teaching basic market ecnomics, the reason we have this debt crisis is because the kids in school are not taught important life skills like how BANKS and CREDIT CARDS WORK.

Stop it with the whole creationism intelligent design and needing the ten commandments in school. You know old document that kids really need to learn
one that bares more of a direct impact to their lives, THE US CONSTITUTION. If the public understood their right and the constitution the govt would not get away with passing half of bills  they do now.

Think of it this way....If you see a product that costs 20 dollars but it is made of shoddy parts and falls apart quickly but another company offers the same product for 5 dollars and it is better made and of better quality. Which one are you going to go for?

This is also what is killing the Big 3 here in MI. Better quality for better value, or at least it is perceived that way by the public.

I have a BS degree I cannot get squat here in the state of MI. I come from a union family I'll say this if the UAW and all those unions have to die for me to succeed so be it.  Because degree holders tend to have certain expectation and ambitions like getting promoted and climbing the ladder in the union world getting promoted is a form of treason to the "brotherhood". If a group of people want to keep me from achieving you are not my "BROTHERS".

292 "Every child must go to college" is a fantasy that rests upon the preposterous notion that every child is capable of performing at the university level.

This is simply not true.

Those of us who live and work in fields where intelligence is a necessity often forget about those who are truly unintelligent.

Intelligence is a trait, not a virtue.  Smart people don't do anything to be born this way.  It is a matter of winning the genetic lottery.  When it comes to intelligence, the only virtue is to be found in what someone does with it.  There are plenty of geniuses out there living in their parents basement and basically being complete losers.  Then there are those of modest intelligence who work hard and achieve a great deal in life.  I'd much rather be the latter.

If someone isn't very bright that is not a moral failing.  Neither is it something that they have any choice about anymore than a paraplegic has a choice about whether he can walk.  

To pretend that a child with an IQ of 93 will one day go off to college and get a high paying job in a professional field is setting that person up for failure. 

Not everyone gets to be an astronaut.  Not everyone even gets to be a CPA.  But there are many things that a person of middling intellect can do that are productive to society and rewarding to the individual.  Jobs that, while not prestigious, are still relatively lucrative.  Plumbers make good money.  Electricians make good money.  Carpenters make good money.  None of these jobs require genius, just ordinary competence. 

Let me break it down for everyone.

50% of the population is of below average intelligence.

(Remember that next time you wonder why so many people seem so dimwitted.)

Someone of average intelligence will benefit from primary and secondary education.  Such a person may even benefit from a university education, but the fields that they will be successful in are limited.  The degree programs that suffer from grade inflation and that have been watered down to the point that they consist of little more than busy-work were created for this group of people.  The completion of such a degree program will qualify a person for the same sorts of jobs that someone with only a high school diploma would have been doing in years past. 

Then there are the real degree programs.  The kind that even bright people work hard to complete.  Science, engineering, and some business fields such as finance are good examples of the kinds of degree programs that still pack a punch. 

An average person isn't going to be able to complete such a program.  Many will be weeded out by the math requirements alone.  Not because they are bad people, but simply because these fields of study are too difficult for someone who isn't pretty smart. 

I'm sure that there are a few people of average intelligence who, through above average effort and perseverance, manage to succeed in such fields anyway, but they are the exception.  As a general rule, to complete an undergraduate degree in one of these rigorous programs requires an IQ in the 80th percentile or above. 

Graduate programs in one of these rigorous fields requires even more smarts, with the 90th percentile being the minimum.

At the same time there are other graduate programs that are also comprised of nonsense and busy work.  The degrees that schoolteachers tend to get are a good example.  Becoming a schoolteacher is a good job that someone of average intelligence can generally do. 

Understanding how to add at a 3rd grade level well enough to teach it to actual 3rd graders doesn't require a whole lot of smarts.  But thanks to teacher's unions and a whole lot of other bullshit, the level of schooling that someone must complete to become a schoolteacher and actually keep their job is climbing ever higher. 

So they go off and pursue graduate degrees that culminate in what is known as a Doctorate.  This is NOT a Ph.D.  The difference is that a Ph.D. requires actual research and a dissertation, whereas a Doctorate only requires someone to complete so many credit hours.

It would be nice if everyone was smart.  It would be nice if all of us were geniuses.  But that isn't how things are.  Some people are smart, some people are stupid, and most people are somewhere in-between.  Pretending that everyone has to pursue the same path in life as the smart people is simply setting anyone who isn't smart up to fail.

293 Tiffany,  you are probably not here now,  but here are some suggestions.

If you like hair and make-up,  go to beauty school.  A talented hard-working hairdresser or cosmetologist can make good money.   My sister,  who is a nurse,  went to beauty school a few years ago in order to be a clinical cosmetologist for a plastic surgeon. 

I have a friend with a degree in biological research who went back to school and got a 2-year degree in medical coding.   (Her prior BA wasn't a requirement.) Coders are people who enter the numbers for diseases and treatments into medical records.  Her particular expertise is cancer registry.  She has worked her way up from a beginning coder to the a position as manager of a hospital's cancer registry,  a position for which she was just hired.

Commission sales are also a way to earn money,  if you are very motivated and have a knack for selling.  My  other sister has worked her way up through several high end retail stores and is now a manager at Saks.  She put two boys through school and supported herself on her earnings after her divorce.

Look around your city and notice what women are doing.   Ask them how they got started.  There are all sorts of jobs that people don't know about.

294 Filly -

Peter Ackroyd wrote a brilliant biography of St. Thomas More.  I strongly recommend it.  LINK

More, as part of his duties as Chancellor of England, oversaw the arrests,  convictions, and executions of six individuals during his term of office.  Heresy at that time was a crime against the state.

295 Thanks, mrp.  I'll check that out.

An average person isn't going to be able to complete such a program.  Many will be weeded out by the math requirements alone.

But this assumes that the only form of intelligence lies in the ability to perform this kind of math.  Based on what I've seen in the classroom, most people are of average intelligence and can complete verbal and mathematically-based tasks on a 50-50 basis, or with moderate predilections in one direction or the other.  However, I also know people who are genius engineers but who can barely put a sentence together, as well as brilliant writers who still count on their fingers. I've had terrific natural pilots in my classes who really can't grasp how to put an essay together at the freshman comp level.  That's not normally found in the general populace, but I think the definition above is too narrow.

But we've already argued this out here before : )

296 Taking on a load of student debt is not such a foolish idea if you expect that President Wonderful is going to give us a couple of years of Weimar Republic level inflation.

Just skip lunch one day and take the wheelbarrow full of hundred dollar bills that you would have spent on a Big Mac to pay off your loan.  The same thing will work for people with upside down mortgages.  There is a significant political constituency for inflation right now.  Considering how popular William Jennings Bryan's 1896 "Cross of Gold" speech was, I am guessing that this is not a new phenomenon.

What?  You think that if the US Government starts printing too much money, the Chinese will stop buying our T-Bills?  Fine, we can trade them to the banks for their worthless mortgage based derivatives paper.  The banks will finally meet their reserve requirements and start lending again which will give us all a real time lesson in the velocity of money.

297

#61 If a kid is going to take on (non-dischargeable) debt to get a sheepskin, it should at least be in something where the acquired knowledge gains them a career path with barriers to entry.  Engineering, math, physics, etc.  The last thing the world needs is another slapdick with a business or sociology degree.

BS on your degree stands for something entirely different nowadays

298 Our Marine got promoted to Lance Cpl. yesterday!
Congratulations to LCPL D'Oh.  It only gets better with rank.

The best decision I ever made was quitting college and joining the Marines.  I got into IT and spent several years in Japan while getting paid for it.  Then my experience let me walk into multiple job offers when I got out.  The Vietnam War was still on, but someone's got to be lucky, right?  I just went where they sent me.  The next best decision I ever made was finishing my undergrad degree on the taxpayer's dime, after I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up.  Thirty two, wife, two kids, then graduate.  I don't need a plan.  YMMV.

My youngest is now a paid, free-riding PhD student doing research in an applied science.  There are some jobs out there for people like her in industry and academia, but she's exceptionally motivated, personable and hard working, unlike her dad. 

299

Having earned an MBA, I was surprised to learn it was of no use in winning a job.  The clues were all staring me in the face.  For example, there were no job ads in the paper desperately clamoring for MBAs.

A college graduate would be far better off going into the military for a few years than going to grad school for a master's in masturbatory studies.

300

Schooled people are dumb. Unless they have been schooled in the school of hard knocks.

I put more trust in Joe the Plumber, than some dumbass out of college.

301

Seems like the mid life crises of a lot of plumbers and corporals are playing out on this thread. Why such contempt for education as a general concept? If you pursue an education, and do it with rigor, your probability of success will be optimized. Sure, a wonderful life will not be guaranteed, but good plumbers fail and good corporals get shot too.  Besides, folks that half-ass military service or trades the way many students half-ass school usually donÂ’t turn out too well either.

 

 

302 Unfortunately, freakin' arthritis kept me from making it into the Army. It's going to be a real irony if I can get a job teaching English overseas more easily than an English teaching job here.