1 Excellent points all around.  AoSHQ really does have the smart people.

2 where's that chicken?

3 Remember the guy who leaked all that stuff to Julian Asswipe?  He did it because the army didn't cotten to his desire for an openly-gay lifestyle.  Again, the armed forces are not some kind of arts club, where anyone can join and do what they want.  We need soldiers who are soldiers, not people who expect to be catered to.   That guy should have been sent home long ago.  Same with Nidal Hasan, before he went on his murder-spree.  The armed forces are not a daycare.

4 I wonder just how they will be able to define "appropriate behaviour" when DADT (or the older variants) are abolished.
Ace, I'm sure you knew this already

5 I think the last point isn't as big a deal in the Army or Marines.  In the Navy, everyone goes to sea for a long time, even people in pogue trades, even during peacetime, and it can be a real family killer.  Also, pretty much every job in the Navy is open to women, so they can cause more disruption.

In the Army, if you are a grunt or tanker, you cannot be displaced by a woman, so you're going to be in a combat unit.  If it's peacetime, that unit will be in Georgia, or Texas or maybe Germany, and that includes everyone from grunts to pot walloppers.  If it's war, the whole division will be in Iraq or wherever.  There simply is no distinction analogous to the one between ship and shore deployments.

6 Just wait till the IG complaints roll in from SGT's not getting enough promotion points on their board. I'm gay he said, they didn't promote me cause I'm gay.

7 Yeah.. this is one subject that we don't talk about in my house without a fight ensuing and feelings hurt.  So, it's office limits.  My kids can think what they like, it's not like they are ever gonna join anyway.  I agree with DADT and they respect my opinion, they just don't like it! lol

8 Too bad we can't get DADT in every day life. So you're gay? I do not care. Go do your job.

9

I still think DADT simply needs to be expanded to everyone.

There was more than one guy who would fill a mid watch with his stories about who he fucked and how. They damn near to put me off all sex, forever. I learned about sexual topics which aren't even sexually appealing, mostly involving this one guy's wife's butt. Don't get me wrong, the occasional butt-sex is ok, but I don't want to KNOW about it. To add to the gross factor, a graphic explanation as to what felching and snowballing are was enough to put me off my midrats.

Seriously, I promise not to ask if you promise not to tell. This is for everyone, straight gay or whatever.

10 Err. that's OFF limits. oops

11 One of my buddies was a Ranger in second batt in Seattle. He once told me a story how in his Ranger school in winter he had to spoon with another man to stay warm. Would this be harrasment now?

12 LOGISTICS!!!!! I've been trying to get out one serious objection to homosexuals serving and it is logistics. How do we propose to handle the living requirements? Men who are attracted to men showering and living with men who do not want such attention? We don't allow heterosexual men to shower with women because women should not have to deal with men checking them out. Why is it suddenly OK for men and women who aren't homosexual to have to be in intimate situations with those that will look at them sexually? And don't twist my words and tell me I'm saying homosexuals are sex crazy and debauched. I'm not. I'm thinking how I would be as a man attracted to women in a shower full of women. I would most definitely be thinking of them in a sexual manner. It's natural. So to the logistics. Do we set up four sets of barracks and showers and bathrooms on the bases and in the field? One for straight men, one for straight women, one for homosexual women and one for homosexual men? I have no doubt I served with homosexuals who also served with honor. For me, this isn't about hating homosexuals. It's about the unique requirements under which those who serve must live. The situation is different than normal society.

13

Too bad we can't get DADT in every day life

Only if we can apply this to heteros as well. I have co-workers that do the nauseatnig 'I wub woooooo!' to their spouse. Or worse, the person that wants to talk, LOUDLY!, about how her husband no longer finds her special lady parts special anymore.

Yuck.

14

Ace nailed it earlier about the 40 percent who do mind.

Funny thing about volunteer organizations: You really do have to treat everybody in them like ... volunteers.

15 the focus of evil in the modern world is the legal profession

Cthulhu, Cthulhu, & Cthulhu
Attorneys at Law
"Don't Fuck With Us"
And Pay Your Goddamn Bill On time

16 These "catch 22's" are going to persist until someone in DC puts a stop to the radicals and leftists using the military as the petri dish for their social engineering schemes.

17 13- Agreed.

18 13

Too bad we can't get DADT in every day life

Only if we can apply this to heteros as well. I have co-workers that do the nauseatnig 'I wub woooooo!' to their spouse. Or worse, the person that wants to talk, LOUDLY!, about how her husband no longer finds her special lady parts special anymore.

Yuck.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 12, 2010 04:23 PM (pLTLS)

I find women to be talking about sex to be more offensive than guys.  They really seem to have no filter.  Guys seem like they'll be somewhat curteous and will only start in on anything "raunchy" if its just guys around.  Women it seems to me will start in on any of their stuff whenever they sufficiently outnumber the men.

19 AmishDude's argument is extremely compelling. 

I already supported DADT, but his points really solidify my position.

I hope it is not abolished. 

20 If DADT is repealed it will not stop there. There will be transgenders fighting to serve, demands made to have "Gay" clubs on base, etc. etc. During my 10 years active duty I witnessed a very promisculous climate among gay men and women who served - far more than among the straight men and women. We all knew mostly who was gay and they were not bothered. Trouble only came when a drunk gay guy would try and play grab ass with a straight guy....and then all bets were off. As other posters have said - the US Military should never be allowed to become a social experiment for those with questionable agendas.

21

Will OTP pretty well nailed it.  And I would add that (h/t to the mighty Limbaugh) the purpose of a military establishment is to kill people and break things, not serve as a laboratory for some half-assed social experiment imposed by a bunch of leftwing barking moonbats who under any other circumstances would not be caught dead anywhere near anything military (being beneath them, don'cha know?).

 

22

Women it seems to me will start in on any of their stuff whenever they sufficiently outnumber the men

Blame Candace Bushnell and the gals of Sex and the City!

23

I wouldn't be quoting the 70% poll to much. From what i understand they had to add the answers of 3 seperate questions to come up with that number and 2 of the 3 answers  could be interpreted either way.

When I was in the Marines in the early 70's they actively looked for gays and booted them if they found them. I don't remember anyone who I though might have been gay.

I agree with the commenter that it's a bunch of lawsuits waiting to happen. If having your masculinity questioned or being called gender quesitoning names is going to make you run to your attorney than Parris Island probably isn't the place for you.

Maybe things have changed though

 

24

O'Donnell thread?  Failure to bring teh HITS on a slow post-Veteran's Day Friday..

Let's try a Queer thread!

The chicken is sore, but still breathing, lets keep fucking it til it gives up the ghost.

25 Posted by: WillOTP at November 12, 2010 04:22 PM (9suBn)

Geez your entire premise is flawed.   Grownups aren't prepubescent and they aren't inexperienced teens, they are grownups....and, as such, they know how to behave like ladies and gentlemen in the real world.

A simple solution to your alleged problem is shower curtains, stalls for poo and stalls for pee.....and a dictate that looking at your sorry naked ass isn't welcome...

done...

sheesh all the gay folks I know behave like adults, they don't try to jump on men for the gays and women for the lesbians....in regular life...they behave...

why is this even an issue?

26 There simply is no distinction analogous to the one between ship and shore deployments.

Posted by: Holdfast at November 12, 2010 04:17 PM (Gzb30)

Eh. Yes, and no. My bro's a Ranger and even when he's home he's rarely actually at home proper. He spends a very significant portion of his time in the US- as in 3-4 months of a 6 month period at home- away training. It's definitely a strain on his family. But, luckily, my SIL was fully aware of what she was getting when she married him, so she's been great to him regardless.

27

 

Gee, i wonder why the Left wants to push this so much?

I'm sure they have only the best intentions for the U.S. military.

28 <i>I find women to be talking about sex to be more offensive than guys.</i>

Yeah, because we only feel tingly in the swimsuit area when the guys are talking about gay sex.

29 Posted by: s'moron at November 12, 2010 04:34 PM (UaxA0)

why not go with the conspiracy theorists who are furiously discussing the webbots predictions on that website someone mentioned the other day.

30 One of my buddies was a Ranger in second batt in Seattle. He once told me a story how in his Ranger school in winter he had to spoon with another man to stay warm. Would this be harrasment now? Ft Lewis? I've done something similar. We lay back-to-back, but Ranger school leaves you exposed for a long time.

31 1. Homosexuality isn't a protected class. Nor will it become one. The SCOTUS has made it clear more than once that the creation of a new protected class is pretty much impossible. That said, the argument that calling someone a "pansy" is out is a straw man. This sort of name-calling in training has been on it's way out for years. Everyone cried about how much our new recruits woudl suck because of the movement away from the various forms of hazing. I submit the last 10 years disprove that argument more effectively than I ever could with words. With regards to Maj. Hasan, how exactly do you think he's being given "special treatment" as you suggest? I can guarantee you he is being given the same level of process that any soldier would be given, and he'll be convicted, under the UCMJ, just like any other mass-muredering prick. Finally, your lesbian comments prove your ignorance of how things will work. There's no question that some gay and lesbian potential soldiers will choose not to serve, for similar reasons as why MOST of America doesn't serve. But the ones who do will mostly behave themselves, because the UCMJ will require it. Unless you're somehow convinced that all lesbians are sexual deviants, your argument holds no water. Will there be a few bad incidents? Yes. Are there rapes committed by servicemen now? Yes. But it does not follow that lesbians will create a gym environment any more than the existence of a rapist in the ranks somehow generates a brothel.

32 Amish Dude makes an iron clad case.  Speaking for myself, I think the homosexual agenda needs to be opposed on all fronts.  The reason being gay marriage and DADT are only opening volleys to legitimize and normalize homosexual behavior. 

From that point forward we will see one lawsuit after another.  Churches will be sued for refusing to perform gay marriage services, there will be harassment charges in the military, gay sex ed will be taught in schools and parents who don't like it will be called bigots. We have seen where these grievance based political movements lead.  Long after the consensus goals are met, they still keep pushing.  Now we have football coaches being accused of racism for not letting black quarterbacks play. In the end, all they are pushing for is liberalism, unequal treatment under the law and speech codes for anyone who is outside of the group. Enough is enough. 

33 I served as well, and AmishDude nailed it.

THAT is my problem with this.

34

Serious question from a lifelong civilian: Why does the military have to be social laboratory? Does everyone somehow deserve the opportunity to put "veteran" on their résumé?

And what about the handicapped? (OK, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I'm still serious.) Can't someone in a wheelchair perform his duties on an AWACS plane just as well as an able-bodied person? They let Rickover serve while in a wheelchair; why can't they let everybody, if they're willing?

35 I think in  the face of all the shit that's coming down on this country, this is a relatively minor issue; however, it is part of the master plan which piles up said shit. Does this make sense?

36 24

O'Donnell thread?  Failure to bring teh HITS on a slow post-Veteran's Day Friday..

Gee, I don't think that's fair.  This topic is in the news because of the SCOTUS's recent decision to not stop enforcement of DADT. 

37

I have a member of my family who is a 40 year old gay male.  It seems that his whole life & identity centers around his "gayness".  His friends are the same and they are constantly protesting re: Gay marriage, DADT, Gay Bullying, etc. etc.

I told him that I thought that anyone's sexual preference was just that - what they are attracted to - not WHO they were as a person.  Regarding DADT, he is avid about repealing DADT of course, yet he has never spent 1 hour in the military and never will.  When I questioned him about logistics, about deployments, etc.  all he could do was to look at me in rage.  He had no answers expect to keep parrotting that it was a "Human Right".  Sigh.

38 I think in  the face of all the shit that's coming down on this country, this is a relatively minor issue; however, it is part of the master plan which piles up said shit. Does this make sense?

Posted by: USS Diversity at November 12, 2010 04:39 PM (RWtqz)

Makes perfect sense.

39

 

He once told me a story how in his Ranger school in winter he had to spoon with another man to stay warm.

Hey, do you me a favor. Ask your buddy if he'd tell anyone if he went camping and woke up with a condom hanging out of his ass.

40 Geez your entire premise is flawed.   Grownups aren't prepubescent and they aren't inexperienced teens, they are grownups....and, as such, they know how to behave like ladies and gentlemen in the real world.

A simple solution to your alleged problem is shower curtains, stalls for poo and stalls for pee.....and a dictate that looking at your sorry naked ass isn't welcome...

done...

sheesh all the gay folks I know behave like adults, they don't try to jump on men for the gays and women for the lesbians....in regular life...they behave...

why is this even an issue?

Posted by: curious

 

Because this is being pushed without any provisions being discussed. Take a look at how the powers that be are so gung ho to put women on subs. The procedure is to make the lovely decision and then (perhaps) try to make it work.

 

As for being adults, I joined when I was 17. Therefore, I was a teen. My enlisting and signing my ass away made me an adult. See the potential for problems? The first assignment I had after boot camp was at Camp Lejune. Some permanent party types got into trouble for setting foot on the second floor of a barracks (women only). They went up there to fix a heater that broke down during the night. Such seperation is, or was, taken seriously. Dividing facilities isn't as easy as you think it is.

41 2. You're right, DADT won't ruin the military. There will be some cases, especially initially, or ostracizing gay servicemen and women, but that will fade, just as the shunning of women did. You consider it a "win-win" now, but that assumes that it will change afterwards. Your loud and proud types will generally not serve. It doesn't fit their lifestyle, just like the military doesn't fit the lifestyle of 95% of Americans.

42 "With regards to Maj. Hasan, how exactly do you think he's being given "special treatment" as you suggest"

Please.  He was given a pass for his past behavior because people were afraid of being accused of discrimination against Muslims.  People died because of that.  Your entire point is nonsense.

43

why not go with the conspiracy theorists who are furiously discussing the webbots predictions on that website someone mentioned the other day

curious,

can you be a bit MORE cryptic?  I almost followed that.

Seriously, what are you talking about?  ATS?

I just think ace is hit trolling.  That's hardly objectionable, and the topic is timely what with the SC decision, it's just kind of obvious he's trying to generate traffic. 

If that's gonna be the case, I'd rather he post some busty lesbian vids or something.

44

 

As said above, it will not stop at dadt.

We'll already well into the territory of making those who 'identify' as the opposite gender part of the norm.

So if a woman who 'identifies' as a man goes to enlist, she's going to expect to serve and serve as a male.

45 I'm thinking how I would be as a man attracted to women in a shower full of women. I would most definitely be thinking of them in a sexual manner. It's natural.

FWIW, the gays at Hillbuzz insist it's not like that for gays, on account of the fact that they *are* guys and there's the same sense of "yes I know what a dick looks like, I pee with one" that straight guys have in a shower situation.

46

sheesh all the gay folks I know behave like adults, they don't try to jump on men for the gays and women for the lesbians....in regular life...they behave...

why is this even an issue?

Like someone upthread has already mentioned, they act okay until they get drunk, then all bets are off.  Even in the 70's when this question started surfacing, combat units were having problems with the grope factor during parties, unit celebrations and the like.  It is a problem.  And it does affect unit cohesion, especially if it's a person in any kind of leadership position.

47 Posted by: Blue Hen at November 12, 2010 04:40 PM (R2fpr)

You know I am so sick of hearing about the gays.  And this show that my very good gay friend is right.   A couple of months ago he said "I wish they would all just shut up and step out of the limelight because they are going to ruin it for everyone, make the life of every gay American worse cause they are idiots" and he was very serious about it.  He has a nice life.  Everyone knows he's gay, nobody cares.  He just wants to live his life and be left alone and not be lumped in as one of them....

I seriously can see his point.

48

Another poster brings up that this is just what happened as more women joined the Navy; the women got the land assignments, meaning men wouldn't get them, and would tend to spend almost all their time at sea. Whereas before they'd swing the occasional patch of land-based duty.

It gets worse. My squadron in Pearl had two sections - those on sea and those on shore duty. As the shore billets filled with women, the sea duty sections were faced with fewer and fewer alternatives to moving out of state for shore billets - disconnecting them from the familiarity of the squadron. This had a negative impact on readiness.

Taking the ferry to Ford Island every morning, we began noticing more and more attractive young waves being assigned as drivers for them with scrambled eggs on their ball caps. They were hand picked from the ranks of the shore duty shops meant to support the fleet - those same billets being filled by women were now being picked clean for sexy drivers but the billets were never reassigned ........ meaning that the shops were now running on short staff and the fleet was losing it's sailors.

Tell me that won't happen again.

49 Awww look I pissed off airdale so much by calling out that all he does is make lame posts acting like he's ace or drew's mom that now he's taken to stalking me.  Sorry Airdale, but I just dont' swing that way.

50 Posted by: Soona at November 12, 2010 04:44 PM (p7Gk/)

But you can say that about everywhere.   The average office party in corporate America. 

51 DADT seems to actually fit with the UCMJ quite nicely when it comes to behaving in a gentlemanly/ladylike/professional manner.

52 O'Donnell thread?  Failure to bring teh HITS on a slow post-Veteran's Day Friday..

Let's try a Queer thread!

The chicken is sore, but still breathing, lets keep fucking it til it gives up the ghost.

Posted by: s'moron at November 12, 2010 04:34 PM (UaxA0)

What's this "we" shit - you got a mouse in your pocket?  No?  Then in your ass maybe?

With all that bitching you forgot to provide a link to your sooper dooper relevent hot topic blog so we could all flee Ace's relentless harping on these issues.

53

"I wish they would all just shut up and step out of the limelight because they are going to ruin it for everyone, make the life of every gay American worse cause they are idiots" and he was very serious about it.  He has a nice life.  Everyone knows he's gay, nobody cares.  He just wants to live his life and be left alone and not be lumped in as one of them....

I seriously can see his point.

Yep.

54 Arrested Development had storyline along these lines. Where buster went into the military when his mom signed him up after being ambushed by michael moore. Anyway when he's in the military the drill sgt can't yell at him or use any less tha savory terms all because a gay man kept sueing the military.

55 3. I served with gay sailors on my ship. We didn't not have a problem with the guys because they were high speed, we just accepted the fact that they, along with everyone else, did their job. The personal lives just didn't matter. See my #1 about sexual harassment in the military. You've been out of training to long to know how much it's changed (I entered active duty in 2002). You're right, there will probably be some complaints based upon orientation and harassment. This happens whenever there's a change. But it also goes away, because the people filing the complaints frivolously are ostracized. It all settles out in the end. Are you trying to make the case that women shouldn't be in the military? 4. As to Ace's suggestion that gays won't serve frontline, seriously? I actually would expect the pointy the spear, the less this will matter. If the guy can do the job, that's what'll matter, because the job is everything. Also, as to the Navy comparison, you're comparing the implementation of a policy 40 years ago compared to it's implementation now. I suppose it's possible that the military will repeat it's mistakes (happened before) but I doubt it. If for no other reason, there's likely a small but significant peppering of homosexuals already in the various branches. You think that somehow they will rip these people out of the jobs they've been trained to do because they have a different orientation than expected? That's just silly, and points out the apples-to-oranges comparison between women being integrated and homosexuals being integrated.

56 But you can say that about everywhere.   The average office party in corporate America.

OK, but the crew at the office party doesn't have to enter combat the next day and give and take life and death orders and watch one anothers' backs.

See the difference there?

57

 

FWIW, the gays at Hillbuzz insist it's not like that for gays,

Bullshit! In all seriousness, no joking around, my experience at the gym is that homosexual men cannot control themselves. They sneek peeks; they giggle; or they just plain stare.

And you know what? I can't blame them because it is natural -- what they *like* is right in front of them. They're men. Men are visually stimulated. Men, homo or not, will stick their dick in anything.

 

58 32 1. Homosexuality isn't a protected class. Nor will it become one.

Well, it is a protected class in some states.  I see no reason why it won't become one on the federal level.  That's clearly the push by gay activists. 

59 I was an Army officer in the mid-80s.  I drove a desk the whole time. That means I saw a lot more politics than anything else.

While the vast majority of officers that I served with were straight-up 100% guys, who really tried to live up to the ideals of America and the military, there were one or two who were problems. 

The superior-subordinate relationship, that most of us see everyday as the boss-employee relationship, is a bit different in the military.  In civilian life, there's always the option to walk; you may lose income, a good review and references, but there's no criminal penalty.  The military is different; walking away is called "desertion" and there's a criminal penalty.  Ditto for failing to follow orders, insubordination, ......

Yes, I had a run-in or two with a problem-child, and a signed form to the IG solved things.  Shift this situation to a brand-new E3 or E4 having a problem with an E7 or E8 ... and a "gay" facet ... guess how this ends.

 I've heard stories, true or not (garbled, made-up or even lies), about how some gays are fine soldiers, but I've also heard others that fit this profile.

My opinion of "gay" "stuff": rights, issues, problems, benefits, etc., is a weak one: if you want to do it, no problem; if you have issues, I might help a little, but, like bungee jumping or smoking cigarettes, I see no reason to suffer the penalty of the cord breaking or horking up cancerous lungs, since I don't indulge.

But when "gay rights" start affecting me, I start getting interested, and roughly in proportion to the effect.  When it get forced upon me, much like ObamaCare, I respond.

I think repealing DADT is going to open up a can of worms that no one wants. I think any claim to "protected status" based on behavior is weak at best, and more likely an invitation to long-term serious problems.

I think the activists that are pushing this and other gay issues, if they really are just trying to make life for gays better, are actually making a series of mistakes.

60 Sorry Airdale, but I just dont' swing that way.

Just because I'm sore every weekend doesn't make buzzion gay, dammit!  He's just been "experimenting" since he was 16!!

Since it's Friday, it must be time for my weekly enema!!

61 I know when our kid graduated boot camp, he laughed and told us stories of the drill instructors calling them "Nancys" and "butt pirates"...imagine that kind of language with no DADT.

That being said, our son had a couple of gay acquaintances in high school who were great kids, and his own favorite aunt is lesbian (and former military).  I asked him how he felt about DADT when we brought him home after MOS school, and he said he personally doesn't want to share a room with a gay man, let alone shower with one.  And the Marine Corps buddies up men and women two to a room as a unifier.  He said instructors he spoke with said they're cool with gays willing to fight and die for their country.  As long as they keep their sexuality to themselves.

62

Did a stint at SIMA Norfolk, it's actually a snipe unit called Ship's Intermediate Maintenance Activity, but everybody called it the Maternity Activity, because all the chicks in engineering who got tired of being in Naples or Rota with their support ship just got knocked up and sent back to SIMA. So it was a handful of guys and a bunch of pregnant women. I see a similar possibility with the gay thing.

63 Posted by: Alec Leamas at November 12, 2010 04:48 PM (r1OG3)

yes and no.  I have never served in the military.  But heck your average WS crew is dealing with financial stuff in a similar way.  Lose a couple of billion and you can kill the hedge fund. 

You know what happened to "no is no" applying to everyone across the board.  People having a few personal rules to live by.  A little respect and civility and not behaving like farm animals. 

64 40 Geez your entire premise is flawed.   Grownups aren't prepubescent and they aren't inexperienced teens, they are grownups....and, as such, they know how to behave like ladies and gentlemen in the real world.

--

That's right!

65 But you can say that about everywhere.   The average office party in corporate America. 

Posted by: curious at November 12, 2010 04:46 PM (p302b)

 

Man, you have absolutely no concept of the military if you're comparing it to the average corporate office.  The difference is night and day.  You've tipped your hand with your post.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

66 "Please. He was given a pass for his past behavior because people were afraid of being accused of discrimination against Muslims. People died because of that. Your entire point is nonsense." That was a failure of command. Plain and simple. No one in my command got away with that crap. If Maj Hasan had weak commanders, that's a different problem.

67 >>Men, homo or not, will stick their dick in anything. Note to self, no gym time with Soothsayer.

68

Hey, Roadking

Suck it, cockholster.

And lighten up, Francis.  I'm making a joke.

Is ace your "nephew" or something?

Already said that it isn't objectionable to drum up the business, or maybe you were so filled with righteous indignation that you forgot to notice that this is not exactly an incredibly SERIOUS place.

I rag on the "Oh, not this shit again" posters too.  I'm just pointing to the hit-whoring and laughing.  Big difference.

69
There were many "gay men" in Vietnam, and they only found out about their proclivity for cock after their first trip on patrol in the badlands, or involvement in contact that left American's dead.

Unfortunately for these mama boys, the physician's were quite adept at ferreting our the malingers with their "I'm now a cock sucker" diatribe, and ordered their return to duty. 

The standing joke was the physician bared his member and and told the newly minted cocksucker, prove it!  My best pal Marvin M, M.D. told me it was dangerous because many were so frightened they would suck it!

70 " I see no reason why it won't become one on the federal level." Except that whole stare decisis thing, and the fact that homosexuality as a protected class has been explicitly denied by SCOTUS more than once. If I remember correctly, they don't even qualify for suspect class, but I might be wrong there.

71 @25 Geez your entire premise is flawed.

Alright, bring on the coed bathrooms and sleeping arrangements then, if its just a matter of strategic curtain placement.  Willfully blind much?

72 yes and no.  I have never served in the military.  But heck your average WS crew is dealing with financial stuff in a similar way.  Lose a couple of billion and you can kill the hedge fund. 

You know what happened to "no is no" applying to everyone across the board.  People having a few personal rules to live by.  A little respect and civility and not behaving like farm animals. 



When two guys in the WS crew have a spat (lover's or otherwise) they can call firm administration and have one office moved.  Presumably, they go home and cool off.  One doesn't give the other orders for which the one being ordered can be prosecuted if he doesn't comply.  Things tend to be different from WS in a forward area. 

73 My argument is as follows, the military is looking at major budget cuts coming up and there iis no way we will be able to afford Louis Vatton packs, Steve Madden combat boots, Vera Wang BDU's, and IKEA decorated barracks

74 "Repeal DADT and that goes out the window. Now, any part of the military, from calling a cadet a "pansy" in boot camp to the whole macho ethos will have to be eliminated because it's "discrimination."" I recall during sexual harassment training (in 1992) that such conduct (calling someone a pansy/faggot/etc.) violated the Navy's rules. AFAIK Sodomy is still a violation of the UCMJ. As long as that rule remains, repealing DADT isn't going to be enough.

75
FWIW, the gays at Hillbuzz insist it's not like that for gays

Yeah, well it's not worth much.  They have an agenda. 

I kind of hate it when someone who happens to belong to a "group" decides that they can speak as the expert for that group and we all just have to sit and listen to it, contrary to what we've experienced and know to be true.  

And if gay men are not attracted to the male body because they have one, who the heck was Maplethorpe selling his pictures to -- horny women?   

Sexual attraction is largely a learned behavior.  How we know that is true is because the standards of sexual attractiveness vary dramatically from culture to culture, as well as over time.  Whether or not there is some sort of genetic predilection to being turned on by your own gender (or by whips and chains for that matter) doesn't change the fact that as we go through puberty we develop tastes that are influenced by the world around us as well as by how we feed those tastes.

So I call bullshit on the Hillbuzz boys -- and not for the first time. 

76 A little respect and civility and not behaving like farm animals. Fuck this.

77 Posted by: Flounder at November 12, 2010 04:55 PM (Kkt/i)

You know they are starting to put "bathrooms" in a lot of places not "ladies" and "men's" rooms

and people have to just behave.  Grow up.  My God, you are insulting gay Americans a lot.  You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities.  Geez....this is backwards thinking.

78 Dammit.  These horny construction workers everywhere follow me around all the time and steal my hash! 
/sock off

79 Cthulhu, Cthulhu, & Cthulhu Attorneys at Law "Don't Fuck With Us" And Pay Your Goddamn Bill On time Testimonial from one of our clients: "My name is Yog-Sothoth, and Cthulhu got me a million souls!"

80 These horny construction workers everywhere follow me around all the time and steal my hash! Hey, nice hash!

81 Repeal DADT and that goes out the window. Now, any part of the military, from calling a cadet a "pansy" in boot camp to the whole macho ethos will have to be eliminated because it's "discrimination." Yep. All you have to do is look at what GLAAD is doing regarding Vince Vaughn's new movie and the joke about calling the electric car "gay". They also had those stupid "that's so gay" commercials on for a while, where they had GLBT activists like Wanda Sykes telling people "think before you speak, knock it off" with regards to saying "that's so gay". There is a major effort to stop people from making any kind of derogatory remark about homosexuality in Hollywood or anywhere in public discourse, so I would not doubt that they would also go after anyone making such comments in the military as well.

82

 

Can someone put me some f'n nowledge on the meaning of 'high speed?'

 

 

83 One of my buddies was a Ranger in second batt in Seattle. He once told me a story how in his Ranger school in winter he had to spoon with another man to stay warm. Would this be harrasment now? Posted by: Mr Pink at November 12, 2010 04:21 PM Absolutely. I've had to spoon with my whole squad in a patrol base to keep warm in sub-freezing temps. I've had to share a fart-sack with another guy on a three-man OP/LP. Never woke up with a hand cupping my balls, well, the other guy's hand. Sometimes you've gotta move light so everyone doesn't have to carry all their shit. But I would hump a fucking Holiday Inn Express in my ruck before I snuggled up with an openly gay soldier. And I don't want to hear any shit about, "what makes you think a gay man would be attracted to you?" Seriously? Who wouldn't want a prime piece of ass like this? God help my clone if the technology makes him available. I'd hit that until he gave me the location of the Genesis Device.

84 So what would Brian Boitano do in this situation?

Posted by: Eric Cartman at November 12, 2010 04:55 PM (5I8G0)

Cook up a fabulous Creme Brulee!

What, you haven't seen my new show on the Food Network yet?

85 You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities.

We already know that they can't be professional and keep their private lives to themselves, so, you know  .  .  .

86 83

 

Can someone put me some f'n nowledge on the meaning of 'high speed?'

 

 

Posted by: Soothsayer at November 12, 2010 05:01 PM (uFokq)

Sure.  37 mph

87

 

You ask any man if he could choose one superpower, flying or invisibilty, most would choose invisibilty.

Why? Why do you think?

88

ace: So, basically, there are a lot of gays currently serving, and in most of those cases, people know they're gay. They don't ask, and these people don't tell (per the rule), but it's not some huge secret.

I did 13 years of service in the Army.  Combat arms.  Combat deployments.  Got out in 2005.

I never knew any homosexuals in my units during that time.  Only once in basic training was there a guy who was suspected of being gay.

So I can't agree with your point/belief that there are lots of gays serving and everyone knows they are gay.

Maybe in other MOS's.  Like the medical field.  (But not the combat medics.  I worked with them, and didn't see any obvious homosexuals.)

I'm just one guy speaking here, but when I hear people talking about all the out of the closet homosexuals in the military, or the homosexuals that didn't openly advertise their homosexuality, but the majority of their fellow servicemembers knew they were homosexual....well that wasn't my experience.

And for the guy who was thought to be gay in basic, well, the evidence to me seemed pretty weak.

He wasn't liked by the platoon, and I think that led to the gay accusation.  But I could be wrong.

89


you are insulting gay Americans a lot.  You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities.



Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.

Even though it wasn't me saying it, my concern for insulting gays ranks right around my concern for pushing my tags under my collar when they stick out. 

Curious, we're not talking about your domesticated, housebroken middle aged gay buddy.  We're talking about 17-23 year old, immature, hot-blooded retards, driven by hormones.  There are enough magical pregnancies happening in the service already, and as Jeeves said the other week, gays like to fuck.  Anywhere.

He got all the British old hags all riled up for saying it too.  It's obvious to Stephen Fry as a gay man that he's hornier than the normal heteros of both sexes, it's hardly controversial to acknowledge and try to prevent it in a closed, tightly controlled environment like the military 

90 You know they are starting to put "bathrooms" in a lot of places not "ladies" and "men's" rooms

and people have to just behave.  Grow up.  My God, you are insulting gay Americans a lot.  You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities.  Geez....this is backwards thinking.

Posted by: curious

 

Then explain why male 'professional' teachers are barred from female school facilities. And then explain why female teachers are barred from male school facilities. Actually, in the local school ditrict, male teachers aren't allowed in ANY bathrooms, except the one for the teachers. That includes special ed teachers.

91 Everyone cried about how much our new recruits woudl suck because of the movement away from the various forms of hazing. I submit the last 10 years disprove that argument more effectively than I ever could with words. Having been around the army for the entirety of those 10 years you are referencing I'll submit to you that the results have been a bigger testament to our ability to get by with less disciplined, crap attitude soldiers than it is a vindication of the ban on stressing the poor kids out.

92 O'Donnell thread?  Failure to bring teh HITS on a slow post-Veteran's Day Friday..

Let's try a Queer thread!

The chicken is sore, but still breathing, lets keep fucking it til it gives up the ghost.


Maybe we could talk about what our favorite colors are and whether we like taking long walks in the rain.

93 Side note.  By why the heck can't they force women soldiers to use an implanted birth control device when they are deployed? 

And how often - ever? - are the parties involved (woman and man) disciplined when one of these soldiers gets knocked up? 

94 This whole thread seems to have chugged in from Mamby-Pamby Land.

Heed the Gods of the Copybook Headings: "Fighting Men and Poofters Don't Mix."

Never have, never will.

95 That said, the argument that calling someone a "pansy" is out is a straw man.
I submit the last 10 years disprove that argument more effectively than I ever could with words.

Ridicule is a pass time in the military long after boot camp. Calling each other names and deliberately trying to get under someones skin is it's own entertainment when nothing else proffers. On my submarine, we made fun everyone for everything. As far as I can see this has stretched to every combat unit I have ever visited. It is masculine bonding thing of trying to determine if you can rely on someone, and those who can't take a little teasing even on their most sensitive subjects are not going to fit in well; I have seen people have to leave combat units because they were too sensitive; so toleration of ridicule is a must, even if that teasing happens to be about your now open sexual orientation... Think AoSHQ without the moderators. Maybe this won't be a big deal, I don't know. I know that how things are seems to offer the best of both worlds. I know that eventually, if you socially engineer the masculinity out of the military enough, you will castrate the capability of your fighting force. But I am not active anymore, so,  like Ace says, why should I even have a say? Or for that matter why should you? What I would say is sure, you can be open, it's your choice to share your sexual orientation with those in your unit, but, no one is going to stand up for you because you feel ridiculed for it if you do.

96

Maybe we could talk about what our favorite colors are and whether we like taking long walks in the rain.

Only if we hold hands.

What's the matter, don't you like busty lesbians?

97

Curious, we're not talking about your domesticated, housebroken middle aged gay buddy.  We're talking about 17-23 year old, immature, hot-blooded retards, driven by hormones.  There are enough magical pregnancies happening in the service already, and as Jeeves said the other week, gays like to fuck.  Anywhere.

They are also one growing up knowing that they get to play the victim card at every opportunity.  Yeah sure there are probably plenty of fine upstanding gay individuals who can keep it in their pants and not make waves.  But there will be those who will want to flaunt their homosexuality around base, and try to become the example and victim standard bearer against the military.

98 Posted by: Blue Hen at November 12, 2010 05:06 PM (R2fpr)

didn't DC just pass a law where there will be no men's rooms and no ladies rooms just everyone rooms?

99 93 O'Donnell thread?  Failure to bring teh HITS on a slow post-Veteran's Day Friday..

Let's try a Queer thread!

The chicken is sore, but still breathing, lets keep fucking it til it gives up the ghost.


Maybe we could talk about what our favorite colors are and whether we like taking long walks in the rain.

Posted by: WalrusRex at November 12, 2010 05:06 PM (xxgag)

How about a thread with a poll on whether rdbrewer can put up anymore pictures of napolitano in the sidebar.

100 Ongoing efforts to make sexual orientation a protected class at the federal level: ENDA.

101 Hey.  Hey.  Watch what you post.  We're watching you.

102 How about a thread with a poll on whether rdbrewer can put up anymore pictures of napolitano in the sidebar.

Don't push him or he'll start with Helen Thomas pictures.

103 How about a thread with a poll on whether rdbrewer can put up anymore pictures of napolitano in the sidebar.

I thought the latest one looked like Al Gore in drag.

104

buzz, Ian S


LOL.

Don't taunt the dynamite brewer.

I do believe that the rest of us are going to regret your flippancy.

105 Two things. What we have works right? Our military is making its recruiting goals correct? So why make this change during a 10 long f'ing war? Seriously, we have to do this right now? Second, to curious or whoever said it. No one is saying gays are going to start sexually molesting men in the shower due to uncontrollable gay sexual prowess, however can you understand it might be uncomfortable for a straight man to shower with a gay man? If you think I am being unfair, do me a favor the next time you are at the gym. Go into the womens showers and showert with them and see what happens. It can be uncomfortable to be naked with someone who finds you gender attractive even if they don't find you particularly attractive. Also, I know you an adult, but I don't think I could be in a shower with a lot of physically fit and attractive women and not have sexual thoughts. Sex is a very primal and viceral part of our humanity and can't always be superceded by our minds. Keep in mind that most people sign up for the military are 17 and 18, I don't know about you, but when I was 18 sex and everything related to it were often on my mind.

106 Okay, so what does an "openly gay soldier" now expect to be able to do?  Decorate his bunk with Lady Gaga posters and put streamers up?  I mean, seriously, what is it that he wants to do that he cannot do now?  Dress up in pink? 

And what if his bunk mates object to his new sense of interior decor?  Are they shut out from complaining, or what?

I'm serious.  Suppose they lifted DADT tomorrow.  What do gay soldiers want to do that they can't do now?  Other than sue for discrimination.

107 prison. gay sex. withdrawal effects from no more rubio harassment posts?

108 O'Donnell thread?  Failure to bring teh HITS on a slow post-Veteran's Day Friday..

Let's try a Queer thread!
Maybe we could talk about what our favorite colors are and whether we like taking long walks in the rain.


So how about that Limbaugh "I hope he fails" comment. What a jackass, he should have never said it.

_{I keed I keed. c'mon guys let's talk this out it was a joke. Put that away. No no no, not the one with barbed wire! c'moooonnnnn!}

109 Soothsayer, "high-speed" is short for "high-speed, low-drag". It means squared away, awesome, hot-shit.

110 Posted by: ben at November 12, 2010 05:17 PM (ESdzV)

and my brother always laughs and says "what stopped him from acting on impulse was having to deal with my mom"....

111 Amish Dude is right on target.

In the eighties when my husband was stationed in Japan and the kids and I went with him, there was a two or three year period where his work schedule was dictated not by his preferences or needs, and not truly by what was best for the military, either.  It was dictated by the fact that one of his co-workers required a baby-sitter to be there making sure the mission was fulfilled even when she was shirking her duties (which she did regularly- like leaving an hour after work started to take her kid for a dental appointment and not returning that day, even though kid's appointment only took an hour).
She should not have been there, let alone promoted, and his supervisor told him that, privately apologizing for the reality- his black male supervisor told him that he was sorry, it wasn't fair, it wasn't good for the military, but this black female would turn any criticism into an issue of the complainers not being able to deal with a black female and she would win, even though the issue was she was a lazy, work shirking, whining wench with a whacked out sense of entitlement.  She was a career killer. 

Here's our experience with gays in the military- a group of them all in the same squadron got caught and were being kicked out.  They got caught because they were letting their relationships interfere with their duties and the guys in their dorm rooms were tired of being harrassed. In the aftermath, there were recriminations and hostility and more drama- and threats to assault they guy they thought turned them in- which was a joke, since they essentially turned themselves in by their behavior.  The reason we knew about it is because the gay subject of most of the asault threats from his former gay pals was a friend of ours, and he asked if he could live with us for his own safety until the military finished processing paperwork and deciding who would just get kicked out, and who would go to jail for stuff like threats and destruction of government property.

We didn't care for our friend's 'lifestyle,' but we also don't approve of  asault threats, so we said yes.  So he lived with us 'homo-phobes' for his own safety for about eight weeks, until he got shipped home.  This group of guys were mostly in their teens- 18 and 19 years old, a couple 20 year olds. 

I love the military, and I still tear up when I see a young guy in military uniform.  I have the utmost appreciation for and admiration of their willingness to serve (my son in law served in Iraq, too).  They do their jobs on the field.  But let's not pretend that 19 year olds  in a military dorm room are seriously that much more mature than 19 year olds in a frat room.

Ending DADT will be a social engineering experiment that really ought not to be tried in the military.   It maintains a level of professionalism that will be absent without it.  Our friend and his pals were not the only gays we knew were in the military there were others in the same squadron who did their jobs, didn't harass people, didn't  show preferential treatment to those they were attracted to or sleeping with, didn't drag their relationship drama into work, and they served out their time with honor.  These guys   got caught because of their lack of professionalism and maturity- but once DADT goes by the roadside, guys like that will be like the black woman my husband had to babysit- a protected class with special rights and a willingness to manipulate the system.

112 Can someone put me some f'n nowledge on the meaning of 'high speed?' When describing a soldier, it is analogous to 'top notch' When describing equipment it is more along the lines of 'technical marvel' or impressive. When describing civilians, it isn't used ;-b...

113 O/T:  Interesting.  Beck said he was going to do one show and it seems he's live and doing another show.

114 Posted by: Cheri at November 12, 2010 04:40 PM (oiNtH)

That is true of liberals in general. I have yet to meet a person for repeal of DADT who can argue the points about housing, discipline, hygiene and the like. You ask them those sort of questions and they get angry.

In effect, fuck the facts.

115 What do gay soldiers want to do that they can't do now?  Other than sue for discrimination.

Get married?

116 That's Napolitano in the sidebar? I was wondering what Ernest Borgnine had to do with DHS.

117 As a former drill instructor, I offer this:

1)  trainees need to know if their instructor is gay.  They watch them shower.  It'd be no more acceptable for a male instructor to watch a bunch of female trainees shower than it is for a gay instructor to watch his/her trainees shower.

2) Operationally, at the tip of the spear, no one gives a fuck.  Having said that, only about 10% serve at the tip of the spear, so FoBits and all you navy squirrels are going to have huge privacy issues.

The military is unique.  Solve it for us or we'll solve it ourselves.  You don't want us to solve it ourselves.

118

 Keep in mind that most people sign up for the military are 17 and 18, I don't know about you, but when I was 18 sex and everything related to it were often on my mind.

 

When the bullets stop flying and the artillery becomes silent, the main thought of every soldier is "gettin' some pussy".
 

-----By some author in a book I read once

119 I don't know about you, but when I was 18 sex and everything related to it were often on my mind.

A younger moose:
Well let's sex see. Just sex got up this morning. I've got no classes sex before noon. Sex I do have that late evening sex lab for sex electronics. My lab partner sex is sure dumb. But she SEXSEXSEX is kind of good looking. I wonder if I should SEX ask her out. Well I'm sex starving. I wonder what's in the sex fridge.

120 118 As a former drill instructor, I offer this:

1)  trainees need to know if their instructor is gay.  They watch them shower.  It'd be no more acceptable for a male instructor to watch a bunch of female trainees shower than it is for a gay instructor to watch his/her trainees shower.

2) Operationally, at the tip of the spear, no one gives a fuck.  Having said that, only about 10% serve at the tip of the spear, so FoBits and all you navy squirrels are going to have huge privacy issues.

The military is unique.  Solve it for us or we'll solve it ourselves.  You don't want us to solve it ourselves.

Posted by: tangonine at November 12, 2010 05:22 PM (x3YFz)

Haven't commenters here already talked about female trainees being extremely uncomfortable because its pretty obvious that their instructor is a lesbian even if she not actually out of the closet?

121 119

 Keep in mind that most people sign up for the military are 17 and 18, I don't know about you, but when I was 18 sex and everything related to it were often on my mind.

 

When the bullets stop flying and the artillery becomes silent, the main thought of every soldier is "gettin' some pussy".
 

-----By some author in a book I read once

Posted by: Soona at November 12, 2010 05:24 PM (p7Gk/)

Hell, I'm 42 and I'm still a slave to my penis.  DOWN BOY!

122 My 1st reaction is to wonder why the the DOD isn't more focused on the GWOT and is instead trying to push through this overturning of DADT. Priorities matter.

123

I don't know, maybe it is enevitable.

I'll never get used to The Few, The Proud and The Openly Gay United States Marine Corps. though.

It just doesn't say widow maker and heartbreaker like it used to.

124 The military is unique.  It's not a 9 to 5 office, and it's not a social laboratory.  Its purpose is to break things and kill people, not to spout "can't we all get along" platitudes. 

125

i also concur that amish dude hit it perfectly

besides, we already have an openly gay branch of the military

its called the marine corps 

###runs away laughing###

126 @ 78

"You know they are starting to put "bathrooms" in a lot of places not "ladies" and "men's" rooms"

Yes, and they are also not forcing men and women to use them at the same time nor are they preventing them from walking down the street to find preferable accommodations.  Your analogy does not apply. 

"Grow up."

Been on a submarine lately?  Had to sleep in 9 man bunk rooms for several months at a time, unable to escape the stench of the guy sleeping below you, unable to just walk away when people cannot act professionally?  Your passion for your desires is clouding your ability to reason.

"My God, you are insulting gay Americans a lot.  You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities." 

I did not insult them, I merely pointed out that you are ignoring the obvious problems pointed out in post #12.

Let me tell you a story of a respected first class machinist mate and instructor at a naval nuclear power instruction facility.  The guy used to throw parties at his house and serve alcohol to young, underage, and impressionable sailors.  The guy had his favorites and if you could get in good with him, then he took care of you, and you could have a good chance at a lucrative opportunity for shore duty after instruction (called a staff pick-up position).  Well one day this guy just disappeared.  It appears that after one of his parties, he tried to make it with a sailor that was passed out, and when the guy came to, he beat the guy pretty bad for his unwelcome advances.  In retrospect, I recalled many instances where his conduct made me uncomfortable.  It appears that I was being courted too (note he was a superior).

Now I am not going to impugn an entire group of people for how this one guy behaved, but you fail to realize the point made in the post #12.  It is about logistics, and the recognition that military life (not just single bathroom coffee houses) puts you in close intimate situations with people you may not care for and you just have to suck it up.  Taunting, body odor, general personality conflicts, etc. are all part of that life and you just have to accept it. 

However, when you start discussing peoples' sexuality, intimacy, privacy, etc. it is willful ignorance to believe that putting an openly homosexual person in close intimate situations with a second person who may have less than open beliefs about sexual preferences will not result situations that can only best be described as uncomfortable.  That is why the coed bathrooms and showers analogy is so apt.  Wishing this consideration away is not a solution.

Add stress, alcohol, strong personalities, lack of sleep, forced intimate arrangements, inability to just walk away . . . .

"Geez....this is backwards thinking."

At least it can be called thinking. It is rational thought that commands acknowledgment, no matter what amount of pretend or fairy tale you wish to cloud it with.

127 Tangonine, better watch that wall to wall counseling if you snatch up a gay kid. That's hate crime territory.

128

something is just not right here...

Serving in the Military is now a "right", but driving a car is a "privilege"?

how did this get so turned around?

something you need to live is a "privilege" that can be taken from you and kept from you forever by government bearucrats.

but something that no one person actually needs to do and that many ppl actually try very hard to never do has now become a "right".

only a progressive can justify this logic, the only argument that justifies this logic is the progressive argument.

yet, many of my fellow so-called conservatives will give in to this logic and accept it as their own.

this whole argument comes down to whether or not serving in the military is a "right" or a "privilege".

if it's a right, then gays must be allowed to serve openly.

if it is not a right, then the military picks who it wants for whatever reasons they see fit.

so what are you, a progressive or a conservative? make your choice and own it! 

  

129 One answer to the sleeping arrangement problem is to bunk the homosexual men with the heterosexual women. But that also causes problems because you are tossing a bunch of gay men into close quarters. And same with the lesbians. And of course there will be the occasional heterosexual guy who says he's gay just to bunk with the chicks.

Okay: all sleeping quarters will accommodate no more than two people; one gay man and one gay woman, or two heterosexuals.

See? It's easy. and it won't take more than a total revamping of two-hundred years of military experience, planning, building, custom, etc, not to mention creating a nightmare of sometimes conflicting regulations, and forcing the armed forces to categorize people by their sexual orientation, which I thought was sort of frowned upon.

But I am sure that it will work fine.

130

I have posted this several times but here we go:  repealing DADT (and the previous drive to allow gays in the military that resulted in DADT) is to achieve a federal recognition of gay marriage.

It has nothing to do with gays serving.  Gay activists say all the time stuff like 90 zillion gays are currently protecting you from terrorists.  There are gays serving.  I knew it when I was in the Army, I know it today. 

The key to the DADT legislation hangs on the phrase that homosexuality is incompatible with military service.  Once ht incompatibility argument is overcome (see Gates and the results of the survey) then DADT is over.

And once they are allowed in, openly, the lawsuits will start.  If you livei na  state where marriage is recognized and you sign up for service, what does the military do? 

They will HAVE to recognize the marriage wherever the military is - in all 50 states. 

Fait accompli. 

That is what is coming.  And you didn't get to vote. 

131

127  great points

i think the vast majority of people have absolutely no idea of how the military really live or just how tight the quarters are

just getting out of the shower to dry off would become seriously uncomfortable if there were open gays around

is it right or wrong, who knows but its true

132

130  how would that work in say 60 man berthings on a ship?

berthings are based on departments and space is minimal because equipment has priority

133

 

Wait.

You wanna bunk the lezbos with the un-homo men?

 

134 Any of you homos...put your hands on me...and I'll kill ya.

135 lighten up Francis

136

Since so many with military experience seem to be against the repeal, why doesn't someone start a Vets For DADT facebook page?  Is there already a group of vets speaking out on this?

137 I'm against gays serving openly in the military. But I don't subscribe to the notion that the voices of military personnel should carry the furthest. All Americans have a stake in who this issue is resolved and the voices of all Americans should carry equally far. When Hannibal is at the gates of Rome all of her citizens are at risk, and all should serve in some form or another.

138 Cthulhu, Cthulhu, & Cthulhu Attorneys at Law "Don't Fuck With Us" And Pay Your Goddamn Bill On time Hey! Cthulhu is helping me make the world a better place by killing Justin Bieber and all his fans.

139 Just a question, since DADT has come to the forefront.  If it's repealed or disallowed, wouldn't that mean that the older military rules toward gays have to be enforced?

140

Disclaimer: a wife of a 26 year Navy career man.

I've been on alot of ships, lots of military clubs and bases, commisaries, etc. I'm trying to imagine the reaction if, say, two gay guys got up to slow dance at an Enlisted Club or O-Club. I'm trying to imagine the reaction should two gays walk arm and arm, kissing each other over the cantalopes while at the commisarie like they do at my local grocery store. I've seen decent sized state rooms for officers, I've also seen them so small they only held two sets of bunks, so close together you had to pass another person sideways. I know what the common showers look like, just a series of shower heads in a row in one large enclosue, certainly no privacy.

And I know that neither the man I was married to nor any of the guys he served with would be comfortable having an openly gay man in their midst.

The trouble with a discussion like this is that so many non-military have no frame of reference. The military life is no office party, no social outlet, and living quarters are not the college dorm. My husband was the Intake Officer at the Navy Recruit Training Center in San Diego for almost 5 years. Day One was relieving them of all the goodies Mommy or Daddy sent with them to boot camp. Second item of business was a swim test and basic fitness tests and aptitude tests, Day 3 was deciding who stayed and who got booted back home and then on to 8 weeks of intensive training, lots of being yelled out and called names, and basically turning boys into men.

I know several gay men and I like all but one of them. I like them because they are real people first and being gay is way down on their lists of things that define them. However, I cannot imagine any of them making it through boot camp. I mean I've seem them freak out over a broken finger nail. And prissy doesn't even begin to describe how they are about their homes.

Lesbian women are much different. The ones I know are tough, usually much more athletic than the norm, and, frankly, make good military perrsonnel and they have the added advantage of not giving their commands a headace by getting pregnant while on a 6-9 month deployments, which is a problem, or at least was 10 years ago.

141 138 I'm against gays serving openly in the military. But I don't subscribe to the notion that the voices of military personnel should carry the furthest. All Americans have a stake in who this issue is resolved and the voices of all Americans should carry equally far. When Hannibal is at the gates of Rome all of her citizens are at risk, and all should serve in some form or another.

Posted by: Steve (aka Ed Snate) at November 12, 2010 05:50 PM (2Mkpx)

No.  The people in uniform that have to deal with the issue should definitely weigh in more than those that don't.  You're not there.  You don't have to deal with it.  You can have an opinion, but it doesn't equal the opinion of someone in the military.  Sorry.

142

would bisexuals have to have their own bunks?

143 137

Since so many with military experience seem to be against the repeal, why doesn't someone start a Vets For DADT facebook page?  Is there already a group of vets speaking out on this?

Posted by: NotALibertarian at November 12, 2010 05:50 PM (IyNMP)

If they tried I can see two outcomes. First outcome, Facebook pulls the page claiming that it is homophobic/bigotry etc.  And the other outcome is the page being overrun with people calling the supporters homophobic, bigots, etc. in one corner and the other corner people putting up fake comments to force the page to be pulled ala the first outcome.

144 Ace, full disclosure: I did not serve. Several members of my family did (including my brother in the early 2000s and my cousin's husband currently) but not me. I never said so and didn't mean to imply it. Sorry I got late to the thread. I was just posting because I was amazed at the specious argument that "it's working now.". Sure, for very good reason. Change the circumstances and peoples' behavior changes. Again, sorry for not being clear. I'm in and out and reading on my iPhone.

145 Some moron please help me here.  I'm having a brain fart.  Who was the congressman/senator/whatever a few months back who served on board ship as an officer, and used to find all sorts of excuses to visit the sailors' quarters?  The guy who was married, and had "tickle parties" and crap.

Jeebus.  Must be all the household cleaners I've been using today, doing my part to destroy Gaia.

146 I haven't had time to read threads lately so this may be repetitive but traditionally the military have gotten a free hand from the courts to run themselves as they see fit, for obvious reasons. Their need for efficiency trumps societal niceties at times. But like everything else this has changed as courts have become activists, substituting their policy choices for the brass in this case, for the political process in most other cases.

147 OT but Fair Game is going to get shot down.

Call it a wild turkey kinda game.

148 78 Posted by: Flounder at November 12, 2010 04:55 PM (Kkt/i)

You know they are starting to put "bathrooms" in a lot of places not "ladies" and "men's" rooms

and people have to just behave.  Grow up.  My God, you are insulting gay Americans a lot.  You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities.  Geez....this is backwards thinking.

Posted by: curious at November 12, 2010 04:58 PM (p302b)

You have no clue with the regard to the military dynamic, so you should just stfu.

149

Hey, Roadking

Suck it, cockholster.

And lighten up, Francis.  I'm making a joke.

Is ace your "nephew" or something?

Already said that it isn't objectionable to drum up the business, or maybe you were so filled with righteous indignation that you forgot to notice that this is not exactly an incredibly SERIOUS place.

I rag on the "Oh, not this shit again" posters too.  I'm just pointing to the hit-whoring and laughing.  Big difference.

And your asking me to lighten?  Geeez.  I love the lighten up Francis/Nancy/Cupcake/Snowflake etc line but you can't preface it with Suck it Cockholster because you step all over the joke by coming off unhinged yourself.  If your gonna go that route you gotta keep the whole thing relaxed like it's really not a big deal.  But if you lead with the Suck it stuff you kinda need to stick with the rough stuff and hammer on from there.

Hey man, I'm just trying to help you out here.

 

150 I don't even want to think about all the mauve colored tanks and APC's we'll have if DADT is repealed.

151

 It appears that I was being courted too (note he was a superior).

Hey you can't help how you look in dungarees!

We had a jg. we suspected was gay. We called him every name in the book around other junior O's. They would face palm and say stuff like, don't call him that...one night he told me to do something and I just grabbed my junk in a dismissive gesture. He departed the space, and immediately realizing I could have lost my crow for that, I went out to do whatever it was and talk to him in the process. he wasn't even upset.

A couple of weeks later he goosed me. Fucking gay zeroes.

152 One other thing, when you are in civilian life and a gay makes a questionable advance, you can get up and walk away. Where does a guy go who is on a submarine that stays submerged for 3 months at a time? Where do you go if you are out in the middle of the Indian Ocean?

#142- no those who have not served should keep their mouths shut on this issue. Like I said earlier, you have no proper frame of reference, so your opinion is either irrelevant, wrong, or skewed through ignorance of what active duty life entails.

153 Posted by: tangonine at November 12, 2010 05:58 PM (x3YFz)

This is true.  You are classless and rude as I already noted this in a previous post.  I can't help it if you a a homphobe.

anyway.  Like all of the DC politicians who haven't ever served and most of the American people.  That's where my opinion comes from.   Since the decision on this has not been left solely to the discretion of the military, where it should be, then I guess you want everyone to STFU?

154 I can't believe we are even having this f'n conversation.  Only in the age of Obama/Pelosi/Reid/Fwank and all the rest of the leftist candyass holsters of cock who so love pushing this nonsense.

155 Some moron please help me here.  I'm having a brain fart.  Who was the congressman/senator/whatever a few months back who served on board ship as an officer, and used to find all sorts of excuses to visit the sailors' quarters?  The guy who was married, and had "tickle parties" and crap.

Eric Massa

156

Some accomodations could be made, if it was left to the devices of the military itself and leftist bureaucrats and lawyers were kept out of the loop.  For example, I was a military linguist specializing in Arabic, a difficult foreign language; the gay intellect would work well there and your average run of the mill male mind doesn't.  So there would be an instance where you might be able to post a lot of gay soldiers.

Another example; the Air Force is much more similar to the civilian world than the other services; so more postings could go to the Air Force.  Other branches of the military are more problematic because they're really not the place for gay men.

Most importantly, if we could leave the radicals out of it, we could tell homosexuals -- You guys are test cases.  We leave our minds open about this issue for the moment; if you guys want to make this work and increase opportunities for your group, then act accordingly      

157

You know they are starting to put "bathrooms" in a lot of places not "ladies" and "men's" rooms

yeah, we have that in our dorms. it sucks ass. it's hella weird to hear noises (or make them) and then actually see the person when you're washing your hands or whatever. i'm sure i'd be just as weirded out (probably more actually) having to see/hear a guy i knew was gay, even if he was a friend. probably especially if he was a friend.

i can't imagine how'd that be in an enviroment in which there was little to no visual privacy. if i even suspected him of checkin me out or whatever, that'd  pretty much be it for knowing him.

158 Okay, so what does an "openly gay soldier" now expect to be able to do? Decorate his bunk with Lady Gaga posters and put streamers up? I mean, seriously, what is it that he wants to do that he cannot do now? Dress up in pink? And what if his bunk mates object to his new sense of interior decor? Are they shut out from complaining, or what? I'm serious. Suppose they lifted DADT tomorrow. What do gay soldiers want to do that they can't do now? Other than sue for discrimination. Posted by: BeckoningChasm at November 12, 2010 05:18 PM Actually, there are some innocent reasons for wanting to be openly homosexual. Think about all the support that heterosexual men and women receive from their significant others. Phone calls, Skype talks, letters, care packages. And single people, when State-side, can go to the local bar and meet men/women to date (or hook-up or whatever). Homosexuals cannot do any of that. Basically, once they enlist, they are forced to live a single life until they are done. I imagine if that was a general requirement for everyone in the military (no dating or contact with any significant others until your time in the military is complete), there would be a lot less people joining the military. I'm still against the repeal of DADT, but I can see some good intentioned reasons for some wanting it repealed. The problem is that those leading the way for the repeal do NOT have good intentioned reasons.

159 I just answered my own question from my post at 146.

Eric Massa.  Tickle parties. 

160 Was the guy waiting in the latrine at 3 am, everytime I was on KP duty, gay or just suffered from insomnia?

161 When I was an instructor, I had the massively good fortune to get a troop with the last name "Dikes."

Imagine my complete, unmitigated, overwhelimg glee when this motherfucker stepped off the bus.  90% of the female instructor cadre was (and still is) lesbian.  All bull dykes.  I made Dikes my chow runner.  So every day, 3 times a day I'd yell "DIKES... GO!"  Best time ever.

162 I don't even want to think about all the mauve colored tanks and APC's we'll have if DADT is repealed.

Posted by: Soona at November 12, 2010 05:59 PM (p7Gk/)

 

....And military parades will certainly be much more festive.

163 Another example; the Air Force is much more similar to the civilian world than the other services; so more all postings could go to the Air Force.

164 I am a soldier in the US Army. I have conversations weekly about this subject with my fellow soldiers. As much as people protest there doesn't seem to be a high degree of passion on this issue. Military personnel have been trained, dare I say brainwashed...to accept the leadership's status quo on every issue. If they were to incorporate gay people into the fold in an open manner, I'm quite sure we could be made to accept it. We put up with so much bullshit that this really would be a minor feature of it.

165 157

Some accomodations could be made, if it was left to the devices of the military itself and leftist bureaucrats and lawyers were kept out of the loop.  For example, I was a military linguist specializing in Arabic, a difficult foreign language; the gay intellect would work well there and your average run of the mill male mind doesn't.  So there would be an instance where you might be able to post a lot of gay soldiers.

Another example; the Air Force is much more similar to the civilian world than the other services; so more postings could go to the Air Force.  Other branches of the military are more problematic because they're really not the place for gay men.

Most importantly, if we could leave the radicals out of it, we could tell homosexuals -- You guys are test cases.  We leave our minds open about this issue for the moment; if you guys want to make this work and increase opportunities for your group, then act accordingly      

Posted by: Call me Lennie at November 12, 2010 06:05 PM (GOsSG)

So you're calling the Air Force gay?

166 As a former commander, I'll tell you what my biggest fear is: the inevitable meeting of two competing sacred cows:  sexual harassment and equal opportunity/discrimination.  What do I do when a male Soldier in the shower trailer says he feels uncomfortable because another, openly gay, Soldier is staring at him when he's getting in/out of the shower and dressing/undressing?  Sexual harassment is something a commander has to address immediately and decisively, with no blame going to the victim.  Investigating an open gay Soldier would look like harassment or discrimination.  It's a lose/lose situation.

167 And military parades will certainly be much more festive.

Posted by: Soona at November 12, 2010 06:08 PM (p7Gk/)

Yeah, I can't wait to see Sister Boom-Boom and Leather Man carrying the colors

168 164 Another example; the Air Force is much more similar to the civilian world than the other services; so more all postings could go to the Air Force.

Posted by: USS Diversity at November 12, 2010 06:08 PM (RWtqz)

Pretty sure the squids have the market cornered on the Village People.

169 * waves to Dr. Manhattan *

Hope you're doing great.  Where are you now, and what are you up to?

170 167 As a former commander, I'll tell you what my biggest fear is: the inevitable meeting of two competing sacred cows:  sexual harassment and equal opportunity/discrimination.  What do I do when a male Soldier in the shower trailer says he feels uncomfortable because another, openly gay, Soldier is staring at him when he's getting in/out of the shower and dressing/undressing?  Sexual harassment is something a commander has to address immediately and decisively, with no blame going to the victim.  Investigating an open gay Soldier would look like harassment or discrimination.  It's a lose/lose situation.

Posted by: Grimaldi at November 12, 2010 06:10 PM (2+H9e)

Exactly.  It's a morale/legal fucking nightmare.

171 @ 143 - would bisexuals have to have their own bunks?

Openly bisexuals would get two in fact, one to weird out the male squares, and one to weird out the female squares.  Got to have equal protection.

And I forgot to mention earlier - hot racking.  Never had to fortunately, but heard the horror stories.

172 My gay hair stylist is former Navy. 

And lay off the Air Force.  I'll send my zombie test pilot dad after you. 

173 How do you handle a situation in the barracks where a gay couple are roomates and are sleeping with each other while a straight couple can't bunk together?

THAT is what I see as the primary issue.  It will be one of discrimination against straight troops.  Two enlisted gay service members who are lovers being able to room together while two straight service members who are lovers cannot.

That is going to cause a lot of resentment.

174

I've heard from a buddy who has worked with a minor Nato ally where the behavior is tolerated or even more so.  He said that after lights-out they were all in each other's bunks.

Do we want our military to have a prison-sex-like atmosphere?  How many volunteers will we get then?  The kind we want?

175 154 Posted by: tangonine at November 12, 2010 05:58 PM (x3YFz)

This is true.  You are classless and rude as I already noted this in a previous post.  I can't help it if you a a homphobe.

anyway.  Like all of the DC politicians who haven't ever served and most of the American people.  That's where my opinion comes from.   Since the decision on this has not been left solely to the discretion of the military, where it should be, then I guess you want everyone to STFU?

Posted by: curious at November 12, 2010 06:02 PM (p302b)

I'm rude, and I don't have much class, this is absolutely true, but that's pretty evident anyway so I can give you a +1 for noticing the obvious.  Having said that:  Fuck off.

176 Hey Dr Manhattan! You made it - good for you!

177

Pretty sure the squids have the market cornered on the Village People.

Please. We all know why there were only 2 guys down in the Minuteman capsules....the Lucky Pierre got promoted. 

^{this is fun. I never get to do this anymore}

178

Hey man, I'm just trying to help you out here.

Posted by: Roadking



Thanks.  But "suck it cockholster" is what I say to friends; it wasn't the rough stuff.

I do appreciate the heads up though.  Maybe I'm just bipolar.

179 177 154 Posted by: tangonine at November 12, 2010 05:58 PM (x3YFz)

This is true.  You are classless and rude as I already noted this in a previous post.  I can't help it if you a a homphobe.

anyway.  Like all of the DC politicians who haven't ever served and most of the American people.  That's where my opinion comes from.   Since the decision on this has not been left solely to the discretion of the military, where it should be, then I guess you want everyone to STFU?
Posted by: curious at November 12, 2010 06:02 PM (p302b)

and as a point of precision:  I'm not a homophobe:  not scared of homosexuals one single little bit.  Actually, I'm in the crowd of folks that believes what you do behind closed doors with whoever you do it with is you business.  That's not, however, the topic of this thread.

180

So you're calling the Air Force gay?

 

I always wondered about that. 

181 Thanks, Clyde Shelton.  I understand that reason, though to be honest I don't think it's sufficient to overturn DADT. 

182 Posted by: navycopjoe kicking blackops ass at November 12, 2010 05:37 PM (S9k9+)

The gay branch were the squids in my day.  Think about it.  On a cruise, at sea for months with no women, wearing bell bottoms...

 

183

167  i never thought of that scenerio, not good at all, either way its a CO's career ender

169  damn you sir

184 179

Pretty sure the squids have the market cornered on the Village People.

Please. We all know why there were only 2 guys down in the Minuteman capsules....the Lucky Pierre got promoted. 

^{this is fun. I never get to do this anymore}

Posted by: USS Diversity at November 12, 2010 06:14 PM (RWtqz)

We know what you guys do on those subs.... close quarters make good friends?  /wink /wink

185


can't help it if you a a homphobe


Many, dare I say most?, men do not like the idea of other men degrading themselves by being the passive recipient of another man's sexual affections.  Fewer want to share intimate quarters with one who does such.

That's not "phobic," it's instinct and the default mode of mankind (or we would have died out very quickly)

Exactly what are they putting in the water in NY that gives everyone a raging hardon for the homos up there?

186 182

So you're calling the Air Force gay?

 

I always wondered about that. 

Posted by: Soona at November 12, 2010 06:16 PM (p7Gk/)

When you radio in for CAS, we know who you are...  might take a bit to get on station.

187 184 Posted by: navycopjoe kicking blackops ass at November 12, 2010 05:37 PM (S9k9+)

The gay branch were the squids in my day.  Think about it.  On a cruise, at sea for months with no women, wearing bell bottoms...

 

Posted by: MarkD at November 12, 2010 06:17 PM (0Jy1K)

swabbing the poopdeck...

188 184  i was wondering when someone would get to that

189

We know what you guys do on those subs.... close quarters make good friends?  /wink /wink

Posted by: tangonine at November 12, 2010 06:18 PM (x3YFz)

Of course the submariners attract ghey men, think of the imagery

190 You can't have a poopdeck and not have someone bring it up.

191

We know what you guys do on those subs.... close quarters make good friends?  /wink /wink

Yeah.  All submariners know what the captain really means when he says "up periscope".

192 Again, sorry for not being clear. I'm in and out


Did AmishDude just "out" himself on this thread?!?! 

;-)

193 Thanks, Clyde Shelton. I understand that reason, though to be honest I don't think it's sufficient to overturn DADT. Posted by: BeckoningChasm at November 12, 2010 06:17 PM I don't think it's sufficient to overturn DADT either, for all the valid reasons mentioned in the post and the comment thread.

194 Clyde: I don't know where you live, but near the bases I lived around, there were plenty of gay bars and plenty of gay military guys frequenting said bars. They didn't do it in uniform, but then hetero guys don't frequent after work bars off base in uniform either.

195

191  as all sailors should stick together to defend our greatness against the heathens who score so low on the absvab that they have to go to the grunt services...

i just can't help the targets, i mean the bubbleheads, i mean the....oh forget it

196 Hey, let's allow soldiers to serve who are against guns!

197 There is no such thing as a  "poop deck" on  a modern ship, unless you count the place where the guy came in slaughtered after a night in Naples and took a shit on the floor.

198 My husband recently disclosed to me our 20 year old son's favorite strip clubs on Okinawa.  As I told the ass (husband), a mother can go her entire life and not have to hear that shit.

Dumbass.

199

200  or the guy who would shit in the shower or the urinal underway

wtf?!! 

200 I don't have the stomach to go into this right now, but if you can "integrate" gays into the military than you should be able to integrate men and women into the same sleeping and bathroom arrangements. If you cannot do that, then you cannot integrate gay men and lesbians in with straight men and women in the same sleeping and bathroom arrangements for the same reasons. It's a bit rich for people who've never had to sleep in a fighting hole or crawl into a bunk to say that Marines and soldiers should just "suck it up" for the greater good when you're now tossed a huge fucking potentially-career ending hand grenade by throwing potential sexual harassment suites into company discipline. As if we really really fucking need that, as if the jobs aren't already dangerous enough, as if bullets and accidents and IEDs aren't enough, now we have all sorts of unique ways to destroy our NCOs and OICs - all because some twirp private gets picked on and now has this huge cudgel of sexual harassment/discrimination to throw around. Ending DADT will be an acceptable thing until the first meritorious promotion board denies an out-gay private and he requests mast up to the CG. Do not mess with the Holy Sacrament of good order and discipline.

201 Ok. I'm out for tonight, and with some good-natured intra-service ribbing of you Navy gremlins aside:  If you serve or served, we're all brothers.  We've fought, deployed, bled,served, and in some cases gave all.  Some were gay, sure, we know who they were.  DADT was a thin veil.  Those guys/gals were no less my brothers and sisters than anyone else. 

I have no problem serving with anyone.  Accommodations just need to be made to respect folks privacy.  As I stated earlier, tier 1 and 2 operators, not so much, it's more a support issue.  A seal team with a gay guy doesn't give a fuck, but back at the fob, things are different. 

202

The question is, What affect will this have on the organization? 

Back in 2002, Stanley Kurtz published an article in NRO describing what happened within the priesthood and seminaries after the Catholic Church began allowing openly gay (but "celibate") men to enter the priesthood.  The system won't allow me to post the link, but basically, gays flooded the institution and within a very short time gay sex became normative behavior.  Kurtz bases his narrative on the writings of liberal Catholic Jason Berry, who wrote Lead Us Not Into Temptation:  Catholic Priests and the Sexual Abuse of Children.

Kurtz: According to Berry, as the proportion of homosexuals in the priesthood increased dramatically in the 1970s and 1980s, many gay priests were visiting the seminary "on the make," frequenting gay bars, and "befriending" high-school students. Berry reports a study of 50 gay Catholic priests, only two of whom said that they were abstaining from sexual activity: "Sixty percent said they felt no guilt about breaking their vows. Ninety percent strongly rejected mandatory celibacy . . . and slightly less than half reported that they engaged in sex in public toilets or parks."

203

200  or the guy who would shit in the shower or the urinal underway

No--er, kidding. Happened every cruise. WTF is right.

204

 My husband recently disclosed to me our 20 year old son's favorite strip clubs on Okinawa.

Jane, be happy! DADT is not an issue for your son.

205 heh.  USS Diversity, trust me, DADT has never been a concern.  After he left I discovered his stash of porn "hidden" in his underwear drawer.  And he's a freaking Eagle Scout.  (Yeah, I know.  Sigh.)

206 206

200  or the guy who would shit in the shower or the urinal underway

No--er, kidding. Happened every cruise. WTF is right.

Posted by: USS Diversity at November 12, 2010 06:32 PM (RWtqz)

See??  You squids are nasty creatures.

207 Navycopjoe, so what do you barnacle-scrapers know about "ramming speed?" UUHHHNNNNHHHH!!!

208

And he's a freaking Eagle Scout.  (Yeah, I know.  Sigh.)

Red. Blooded. American. Boy.....stay proud, mom!

209

See??  You squids are nasty creatures.

Thought you had a USAF ballet show to attend?

210 @211

Oh, I'm proud all right!  Oo-rah!  Devil Dogs!

211 Repeal of DADT is a misnomer, this is a repeal of the ban on homosexulas serving openly.

One thing for sure though, the NCO Ball will be fabulous!

212 @ 204

OK that's two out in this thread. 

In all seriousness, good points.  And I personally do not have anything against gays, gays serving, gays serving openly, or repeal of DADT, (regardless of whether it is a Trojan horse for a larger agenda) so long as proper considerations are made for some of the points being made here. 

However, the proponents of repeal need to stop pretending as if it will merely be as simple as a stroke of the pen.

213 I know, I know.  Trojan? Stroke? 

Quit staring at my poop-deck.

214

"As said above, it will not stop at dadt.

We'll already well into the territory of making those who 'identify' as the opposite gender part of the norm.

So if a woman who 'identifies' as a man goes to enlist, she's going to expect to serve and serve as a male."

This is precisely my issues with repealing DADT. I don't think it will be an issue is Petty Officer Joe is gay -- my husband has served 13 years in the military, and the best leader he ever had was a gay woman. He caught her getting busy with another woman one day, and you better believe she knew she screwed up. And yet there were no lawsuits, it all worked out on it's own back then.

But when Seaman Timmy really feels, deep down, that he's really Seaman Tammy, what happens then? Will Tricare pay for his choppadickoffame surgery? EFF THAT. They won't even pay to get me a freaking pap smear every year. What if Seaman Timmy wants to wear the female uniform? Something tells me THAT would affect unit cohesion a lot more than simple whispers that the guy Timmy brought to the command Christmas party wasn't "just" his "roommate."

I hate to use the term "slippery slope," but that's precisely what this is. With certain groups, if you give them an inch they will take a mile. Start with serving openly, wind up with Gay Pride Parades (complete with feather boas and neon pink banana hammocks) at the Pentagon.

215

Good gosh, could we ask for more trouble than to repeal DADT? Look at the gay community's public representation - parades, outlandish clothes and behaviors, rainbow this and that - that causes all gays to be labeled freaks. You think this won't manifest itself in the military just as it has in the civilian sector if it's allowed to be?

OUT OUT OUT makes me sick. I don't want to know anyone's sexual behavior - it used to be a private matter. Be gay if you wish, but STFU and have some class. Yes, you have the right to be gay, but you don't have the right to shove it in my face, or in the faces of other military personnel who take their calling seriously.

Lawsuits...I shudder to think how many there would be. Most by those who entered in the military to hit the legal lottery.  

216 207

 My husband recently disclosed to me our 20 year old son's favorite strip clubs on Okinawa.

Jane, be happy! DADT is not an issue for your son.

-----------------

JAne i had to hear my Marine and my Dad (Gag!!!!!!!) reminice about the International Club and how AWESOME it is... I feel your pain.

is he at Shwab or Kadina?

217 I suggest creation of a "gays-only" division. Let's channel some of the natural gay inclinations to productive purposes. The animosity, jealousy, and bitchery that would ensue from forcing 16,000 gay men to live in close proximity to each other without access to dance clubs, fashion, or Madonna posters could harden that unit into a swishy, death-dealing machine worthy of Achilles and Patroclus! The "Buttfuck Battalion" would strike fear into the hearts of even our most determined enemies. Their propaganda would be grim and unambiguous: "Soldiers of (X), know that if you are captured you will be dressed in sequins, made to listen to Moby, and be assfucked to death. Surrender is not an option--defend the motherland!" Islamic extremists? Picture the indignation! Nothing says battle-royal like gays combating an unshowered enemy who dresses in earth tones and doesn't accessorize! And their commander? Someone as gay as a handbag full of rainbows. I'm thinking Bwarney Fwank...

218 214 Repeal of DADT is a misnomer, this is a repeal of the ban on homosexulas serving openly.

---

I thought that DADT actually allowed homosexuals to serve as long as they kept their private lives private.  I thought that prior to that, if you were homosexual, you were not allowed to sign up... and they would try to determine if you were "eligible" prior to enlistment. 

219 Gushka, he's at Foster (just spent a few weeks at Shwab).  I still see a baby-faced kid when I see him on Skype.  Now I have to block all that other crap out of my mind.

220 BTW, why doesn't the media refer to DADT as "Clinton's DADT policy" or "the Democrat's DADT policy"? 

Wasn't this a Clinton-era thing?  If it was, it's one of the only sensible things he accomplished. 

221 #20

Lol.

* wipes tears *

222 my husband has served 13 years in the military, and the best leader he ever had was a gay woman. He caught her getting busy with another woman one day

I must lead a sheltered life.  I've never caught someone else getting busy or been caught getting busy.  Are all servicemen/women so uncontrollably horny that they're doing it out where they can get caught? 

223 "Obama Administration, DoD Unveil New 'Show And Tell' Policy"

224 You cannot BELIEVE the stuff that i hear. When my sister was working in JApan, She discovered that DAd in Japan was a whole different person than the dad she knew in the states.

I guess he told her Room mate dirty jokes and when she met him for dinner our teetotalling daddy was tipsy!

225 But the real question is: where can I get an NFL jersey?!? 

226 219 207

 My husband recently disclosed to me our 20 year old son's favorite strip clubs on Okinawa.

Jane, be happy! DADT is not an issue for your son.

-----------------

JAne i had to hear my Marine and my Dad (Gag!!!!!!!) reminice about the International Club and how AWESOME it is... I feel your pain.

is he at Shwab or Kadina?

Posted by: Gushka at November 12, 2010 06:55 PM (93zw2)

Jane, just remember if he tells you he is bringing home a japanese girl, check and make sure that her name is not the equivalent of Bambi, Mercedes, or Saphire.

227 Jane D'Oh: I'll tell you what the Navy Chaplain told me during a pre-wedding interrogation. "Remember you are his port in the storm, the home you make is his safe haven. Do not dwell on where he has been or  who he has been with while on a 2 day pass during a combat tour, it is meaningless as far as your marriage is concerned." Then I was sent off for more interrogation (the Navy was very strict back then on who they would permit to marry during wartime), this time by my intended's exec officer, whose only advice was, "get tested every time he comes home from an overseas tour." Of course, Navy Hospital tested all Navy wives as a matter of course, so that was a given.  Some Navy wives would search every thing their husbands brought home for some sign he'd cheated, me, I never cared if he paid for a $1 BJ at some Vietnam hooch, after a month or more patrolling the Mekong dodging bullets and seeing his comrades being blown out of the water, with some bar girl whose name he didn't know and whose face he would never recognize.

228 231 Jane D'Oh: I'll tell you what the Navy Chaplain told me during a pre-wedding interrogation. "Remember you are his port in the storm, the home you make is his safe haven. Do not dwell on where he has been or  who he has been with while on a 2 day pass during a combat tour, it is meaningless as far as your marriage is concerned." Then I was sent off for more interrogation (the Navy was very strict back then on who they would permit to marry during wartime), this time by my intended's exec officer, whose only advice was, "get tested every time he comes home from an overseas tour." Of course, Navy Hospital tested all Navy wives as a matter of course, so that was a given.  Some Navy wives would search every thing their husbands brought home for some sign he'd cheated, me, I never cared if he paid for a $1 BJ at some Vietnam hooch, after a month or more patrolling the Mekong dodging bullets and seeing his comrades being blown out of the water, with some bar girl whose name he didn't know and whose face he would never recognize.

Posted by: Sara at November 12, 2010 07:25 PM (PJC8d) 

think the point of the thread is whether that bar girl's name is actually Mike.

229 Y-not, I'm totally straight. But, being a mathematician, it's purely a theoretical statement.

230 233 Y-not, I'm totally straight. But, being a mathematician, it's purely a theoretical statement.

Posted by: AmishDude at November 12, 2010 07:35 PM (TGYDu)

All it would take is a very simple equation to flip you :-p

231 LOVING the slippery slope morons....KEEP IT GREASY!!!!

232 I serve with a gay pilot  but in my career field, it's not an issue. (he's still in the closet because of DADT). He's a great guy, a great pilot--but his unique situation will not translate well.

We're a reserve unit and we're all officers. If you consider a line Army unit and the same type of guy--Firestorm that will KILL morale.

Perhaps there are some recruiters here on the site, but how many gay men do we  REALLY have signing up?

233 so for those of you keeping score here at Ace of Queer apologists:

Christine O'Donnell 
strange , but religious person who made some odd remarks  = BAD

All sexually twisted and perverted soldiers who want to undermine National Security in order to keep rubbing against their freakish perv buddies' hemmorhoids with their shit -covered dicks without any reproach  = GOOD


whew . teh SPIN!

 so hard to keep up .

 

234 I'm taking the preDADT position as I was excused from service in '85. If you were involved in an incident that demonstrated you being gay/lesbian you would be boarded and discharged under other than honorable conditions.

What I really don't get is how rescinding DADT allows gays/lesbians to be open about their orientation and not get thrown out with yesterdays garbage.

The principle behind Clinton's DADT was to force the military to allow gays to stay instead of routing them out and discharging them for LYING ABOUT THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

Does anybody else remember these words " that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion"?

235 Why do we have to conduct this grand experiment while embroiled in two significant land wars?

Why do we have to conduct this experiment all at once - can we evaluate the effects over a reasonable period of time in one service before going all in?

Is there a holistic change with regards to sexual matters in the service that can address both the gay and pregnancy issues?

What will be the position of those who publicly announce their private sexual behaviors under future administrations?

236 I've never caught someone else getting busy or been caught getting busy.  Are all servicemen/women so uncontrollably horny that they're doing it out where they can get caught?

You're talking about 18-25 year olds living in close proximity for long periods of time, often in the middle of no where, and undergoing a lot of stress. 

237 think the point of the thread is whether that bar girl's name is actually Mike.

Well, considering the stories I've heard from friends who have visited SE Asia, it very well may have been, and her hubby didn't know...

238 Repealing DADT improves national security...how?

239 It's been alluded to, but perhaps we need a 'sacred band of thebes' just to really piss off the muslims. An all gay search and destroy unit with bullets dipped in pigs blood!

I'm  all for it, but the list of gay warrior candidates is sadly not extensive. Hand every pro-gay demonstrator an enlistment contract. Then film it. Result=hilarity.

240 Are all servicemen/women so uncontrollably horny that they're doing it out where they can get caught?

You have seen the pregnancy rates.

241 CDC stats for AIDs tell how many gay men have aids; using commonly accepted stats for the number of gay US men, it's between 1 in 5 to 1 in 20.  (1) should the US public have to pay for AIDS treatment for gay soldiers, and (2) would you want to eat meals prepared by a guy who has a 1 in 4 to a 1 in 25 chance of having AIDS?

242 all the other countries armies seem to be able to do it.

243 Which countries, and how much fighting do these armies actually do?

244 Which countries, and how much fighting do these armies actually do?

john Ryan doesn't do facts.  They make his head hurt.

245

What soldier wants to get covered with the blood of  a wounded, bloody comrade if the guy might have AIDS?  Who wants a blood transfusion from somebody who is gay?

 

An effective military will not accept homosexuals.  I notice our main enemies haven't.  I wonder why?

 

The one's that have are those militsry titans like Belgium, Holland or the Danes.  Look at real militaries like the ROKs or Taiwan, military's who know what military effectiveness is and you'd never see such nonsense.

 

Ever notice the people most vocal are the ones who have never served, people like Pelosi and Obama?

246 I was in from 90-94, and the fact that women were not allowed on combat ships made things miserable for people in my rating. Female Operations Specialists would do 3 years of sea duty, and 4+ years of shore duty. Men could count on 18 months (or less) of shore duty and 5+ years of sea duty. Thankfully, by not being on a Tender, I was spared having to dodge sexual harassment charges because some woman had a grudge against you. Honestly, I don't think women are any more likely to be dirt bags than men are. But after Tailhook, the women were given the tools to drag down anyone around them they chose to target.

247 Major Hassan was a protected class. Let's review what he did: A. Give lectures to fellow soldiers justifying beheading of the infidel. B. Frequent Jihadi websites and be in contact with Al-Awlaki. C. Speak out loudly against Iraq and Afghanistan missions, and say jihad was justified.

Now, Joe non-Muslim soldier gets court-martialed for that. A Muslim, however, has to shoot and kill 14 (13+ unborn child) before anything is done. Hell this guy was going to be sent to a war zone.

Gay soldiers of note include ... the Wikileaker. Who like Hassan was a major security threat but nothing could be done because he was Gay. Ending DADT means one giant Gay Pride Parade 24/7 in the military. With a whole bunch of guys legally protected, never serving in the front lines, but parading around like Corporal Klinger, only for real. Gays are unqualified for the military anyway. Those wanting a giant party of fabulousness should join the Village People, not the Navy, Air Force, Army, or Marines.*

*Yes I know, PC lies and dogma dictate that all Gays are serious people who never ever behave like they do in the Folsom Street Fair, have narcissistic gay pride parades, and exhibit themselves like Bobby Trendy 24/7. Meanwhile on Planet Earth, most gays are great for the fabulousness and glittery stuff, not so good actual brutal combat. I frankly don't see the military utility of trannies, drag queens, and the like. RuPaul doesn't seem to me to be America's secret weapon against Bin Laden. That's probably just me.

A gay sexually harassing a straight guy? That's another Major Hassan right there. The Gay guy gets to do what he wants. That's how PC works. That's diversity. The straight guy gets told he's on his own, he either administers a beat-down privately, or he gives in. Which is the whole point of ending DADT.

248 You know they are starting to put "bathrooms" in a lot of places not "ladies" and "men's" rooms -- stand by for lawsuits.

and people have to just behave.  Grow up.  Oh yeah.  That will happen.  My God, you are insulting gay Americans a lot.  You make them out to sound like they can't have a professional military career and be gay and that they can't control their sexual proclivities.  Geez....this is backwards thinking.

Posted by: curious at November 12, 2010

You are looking at this backwards.  You are talking about this as an issue of gay rights, of what is good for the gay community.  Try looking at it from the other angle - what is good for the military?  What policy will make the military more effective, better able to defend America? 

The gay community has obviously not been hindered by the various Congressional policies on the enlistment and conduct of soldiers.  Why change things now, when the gays have done so well without being allowed in the military? 

I don't expect gays to be any better than straights at controlling their sexual proclivities.  We have enough problems now with the rules we have now - why add a whole new dimension of problems?

249

@ 138 - I don't subscribe to the notion that the voices of military personnel should carry the furthest. All Americans have a stake in who this issue is resolved and the voices of all Americans should carry equally far. When Hannibal is at the gates of Rome all of her citizens are at risk, and all should serve in some form or another.

Agreed - let's look at this from the perspective of, "How can we ensure the security of America? "  instead of the current perspective of, "how can we secure the gay vote for the next election?" 

250

@159 - Think about all the support that heterosexual men and women receive from their significant others. Phone calls, Skype talks, letters, care packages. And single people, when State-side, can go to the local bar and meet men/women to date (or hook-up or whatever).

Homosexuals cannot do any of that. Basically, once they enlist, they are forced to live a single life until they are done.

This is bullshit.  Mail and telephones are open to use by everyone and are not monitored in any tangible fashion.  You can call anyone you want.  You can receive a letter or package from anyone you want.  When you are back home, you can go where you want on your off time (unless the place is on an off-limits list) and mostly do what you want. 

If you insist on flaunting your relationships that violate regulations, yeah, you may get criticized.  So don't tell everyone that you are waiting for letter from your homosexual manwife Bob.  Just say you are waiting for a letter. 

251 hello everyone,im wholesale supplier  online

Welcome to our website   

=====   http://www.1shopping.us/    =======

accept paypal and free shipping

We need your support and trust!!!

Dear friends, please temporarily stop your footsteps

To our website Walk around A look at

Maybe you'll find happiness in your sight shopping heaven and earth

You'll find our price is more suitable for you.

And we shall be offer you free gift about MP4 if you more order.

=====   http://www.1shopping.us/   ========