December 21, 2010
— Ace 1. I've never gotten how "Watermelon" and "friend chicken" began to get treated as high-level racial slurs. Yes, they are slurs, as they stereotype and demean (and that is the point, and why I discourage their use here), but come on, they're not big-time capital-R Racist slurs. I categorize them in the same class as calling an Italian a spaghetti-bender or ravioli roller, well, a bit higher in offense than that because Italians aren't discriminated against that much and there is a greater allowance for good-spirited racial/cultural joshing. We're not really there yet with blacks, or Hispanics.
Still, in the scheme of racial insults, stereotyping a group by the foods they prefer (or are thought to prefer) is pretty small potatoes.
1. a. I often employ the SNL standard as to what's permissible in edgy racial humor. SNL itself doesn't have a consistent standard here, and, like pornography, it's more of a know-it-when-I-see-it sort of thing, but it should be noted that while the SNL standard abhors watermelon and friend chicken jokes as retrograde, derisive, and, mostly, old and hack, it seems fine with fresher racial stereotypes along these lines. See Gangsta Bitch Barbie, for example, which stereotypes "Gangstas" (really urban blacks) as preferring Newport cigarettes.
That joke actually was common in the nineties, even among the enlightened urban liberal professional types that made up SNL's writers and performers. Grape soda, Kool cigarettes (any menthol brand, really) became fresh, and acceptable, replacements for "fried chicken" and "watermelon." Why? I don't know. When you think about it, it seems the fresher insult should be more offensive, as it's novel and like novel things, more likely to elicit an actual reaction, while the older stereotype-insult should be comparatively less provocative. It's old, man, as they say on the internet.
I think the real distinguishing thing here is that the fresh thing is vibrant and new and therefore funny while the old thing isn't funny anymore. But that has nothing at all to do with attempting to avoid racial offense -- that's just following the rule of comedy to not do old, hack jokes. That is, it's not an ethical standard whatsoever, but a purely comedic one.
Though, I suppose, there is value in a funny joke, while there is little such value in a purely derisive racial slur, so one can say that funniness may mitigate the offensiveness of a racially-edgy statement, whereas if it's not funny it's just racial disparagement for the sake of racial disparagement.
In Haley Barbour's case, I'm guessing that at the time he said this, watermelon jokes were still considered funny (or at least not notably unfunny) in parts of the country, so... yeah, who knows.
1.b. The Kools/Newport/Grape soda gags wouldn't sell today -- they're now almost as hack as watermelon jokes; what was fresh and daring in 1995 is now pretty much just repeating tired old racial gags -- which suggests that a lot of this is simply context dependent, by which we mean culture and era dependent. Which leads me naturally to the more important point.
2. It always strikes me that there is a baseline of belief in any culture and any timeframe. You have to judge "progressive" or "conservative" or "good" or "bad" according to deviation from that baseline.
Liberals often malign the Founding Fathers as racist slave-owners and so on, which is true, but that's a vindictive standard made from such an entirely different vantage point as to be pretty meaningless. A more proper way to judge them is to the extent they deviated from the baseline and in what direction -- given that the culture was racist and slave-holding, how do they compare to the average (and normative) view that held at the time? If Thomas Jefferson, for example, treated his slaves particularly well, and also agitated to move away from the slave system altogether (even if he wasn't giving them up before the law required him to do so), doesn't that make him, in culture/era specific context, more on the "good" side of things than the "bad"? Now, it's hard to say he's an angel when it comes to slavery -- slavery is and always was an unmitigated evil -- but in context, being better than the average person actually in existence at that time and in that place puts one more on the good side of things.
This happens a lot now, as we look at politicians who came from racist holdout bastions in the Deep South. (And, I should say, what could be called the "Deep North," too.)
I think the occasional expression of something that sounds awful in 2010 sort of just proves they did come from the 50's and 60's Deep South. I think the right way to look at is how much they resisted a bad culture, and deviated from it, and were open to ideas of racial equality and etc., not that they perfectly mimicked the learned culture of a 2010 media-academic type.
2. a. But all of this is sort of a hard argument to make, so I usually don't bother making it, and instead just say "the game is not worth the candle" and write such candidates off.
2. a. i. The counter-argument that always gets made is that we cannot concede anything and must go into maximalist push-back mode, and refuse to accept their assumptions, and etc.
That's kinda true, but what is the point when the thing begin defended against is sorta bad? Even if it's understandably bad and not as bad as liberals say, isn't it still kinda bad? In other words, if I accept the assumption that we are not to accept the assumptions of liberals, I still have to ask -- well, which assumptions do you mean?
If you mean the vindictively-applied 2010 NYC standard applied, selectively, only to politicians of one party, despite the anachronistic nature of applying such a standard to 1963 Mississippi, I agree; but if you mean the basic assumption that racism is bad, m'kay?, I disagree strongly.
It's often very important to be very clear about which parts of an argument you are disputing, and which you accept. I don't think I can accept, nor would it be wise for anyone to accept, the notion that if liberals say that racism is bad, we must challenge that.
At the end of the day, I think it fair, if awful, to say the Citizens' Councils, while racist and segregationist, and, hard to argue, less-overtly-racist successor-organizations to the suddenly-disreputable KKK, were nevertheless an improvement over the KKK -- yes, it is an improvement when a wrongful idea is publicly scorned enough and driven underground enough that it has to be finessed covertly -- so I can understand, from Barbour's point of view in an earlier period, finding them to be relatively benign.
If liberals don't believe that a politician can be judged as flawed but not awful for having accepted a part of his regional/era-specific culture in a past time before disowning it, they should check out their own continued support for former two-time presidential candidate and Speaker of the House Richard Gephardt and his own courting of the CCC.
Did you think I was going to mention Robert Byrd? I decided against it, because liberals have full immunity from any mention of Robert Byrd. They just pretend he didn't exist. You can sooner get a liberal to admit that Robert Byrd, the "Conscience of the Senate," was a nasty, explicitly racist Klan member -- did I say member? I meant Klan creator and leader -- than you can get them to admit that they don't read books, they just read book reviews in the Sunday Times and they claim they read the book.
3. I always like to end on a liberal-bashing note, so let me do that now. A novel example of that has just occurred to me, in thinking about this issue. I think I'm a little clever for thinking of this.
Liberals, as I said, like to pretend that someone must be judged according to 2010 Manhattan Media standards rather than the prevailing culture they grew up in. Actually, it's pretty much a mix, as I've laid out above. You shouldn't ever give someone a full pass for a bad idea or malicious thought, but you can give them a partial pass, if they were comparatively innocent compared to the culture they grew up in.
But here's the less-delicious double-standard (we'll get to the even tastier one next): Liberals like to give criminals a pass -- limited or even full -- for having grown up in bad conditions -- poverty, broken home, poor role models, a prevailing culture that celebrates criminality and violence while disparaging achievement along a better path.
So why the double standard on Haley Barbour? If a criminals' actions must be judged according to the culture that made him, why is it only muggers and murderers getting this treatment?
Liberals are fond of blaming ills, but only ills, on "society." In the appropriate case, they feel whining about "society" lets everyone (except Republican political actors, of course) off the hook.
Actually, the right way to view this is yes, of course, poverty and broken homes and all that is in fact a major contributing cause to criminality, but we cannot act as if that does anything more than lightly mitigate the crime, because to do otherwise would be to normalize that crime, and establish a new normative standard of behavior in which crime is justifiable and excusable. It's one thing to know in your heart that a black-hearted criminal probably didn't just choose entirely of his own volition to be so black-hearted, that yes, in all likelihood, he suffers from a mix of bad upbringing, bad genes, and bad chemicals in his head; it's another thing entirely to enact that idea as precept in criminal justice.
But anyway, and here's where I begin to get clever: Why is it only social ills that are so attributed to "society"? Why should it not also be the case that social goods are attributable to society/culture as well? If social ills can be traced to society and culture, why can we not also say that benevolent social dispositions are similarly largely rooted in society and culture?
Here's the answer: Because liberals like to imagine that they are actively choosing to do "good," that a whole host of options were presented to them, most of them "evil," and they choose to do the good thing, because, well, they're just enlightened and intellectual and good, that's why.
To a liberal, his own social choices are made entirely without reference to the prevailing culture of his age/region -- to acknowledge the importance of the latter would be to demean his own ego. That is, no liberal wants to admit that the reason they will cry in horror at the slightest racial joke (or mention of Christmas, for that matter) is largely just a product of stuff they absorbed in growing up in a liberal culture. That it's not, in fact, really a choice they made, so much as a path of least resistance they simply failed to avoid.
They want to believe they believe the right things because they're so smart and concerned, not just because by happy accident they were born and raised and schooled in Rumson, New Jersey.
To suggest their politics/ethics are anything but of their own Heroic Choice would be to undermine the entire purported moral superiority which is the whole point of the game from the jump.
And, of course, it would require them to give a little leeway to Republican politicians from another era and region. Which they won't do. (They do of course understand that Robert Byrd was only a KKK Kleagle because he came from the "hollahs" of West Virginia.)
But I think that's an intersting context, right there, revealing a double-standard, and a racially-condescending one to boot: Rich white liberals choose their own social mores without inputs from the prevailing cultural standard, but poor black kids have no agency whatsoever and are entirely made by their culture.
Racism, Northern and Southern Style. The topic has brought about the inevitable game show, Who's More Racist?, which is fine.
I'm only mentioning this because one post wrote something pretty funny. This is probably old, but I hadn't heard it put like this.
[Northern white liberals] love blacks, and hope to meet one someday.
Funny.
That reminds me of a contretemps pushed by Politico about the big Tea Party gathering over the summer. One guy had sent out an email to people coming down to DC for the event, advising them to stay away from certain stops on the Yellow and Green lines, because the neighborhoods were bad, and we all know what that means.
Liberals got one day's worth of Racial Mileage out of this. White! Tea Party! Conservative! Telling people which neighborhoods were bad, which is to say-- minority!
I remember at the time having my own good laugh about this. Because all the guys at Politico, and half of the liberal bloggers writing about this, lived in DC... in the "good neighborhoods" (by which we mean -- mostly white).
And yet here they were chuckling over this email, as if it were some great coincidence-- luck of the draw, you know -- that they all just happened to live in mostly-white neighborhoods and hadn't chosen their own apartments based on that criterion.
I wanted to, but didn't, email one of Politico's writers to ask him, "Hey, which stop on the Green Line do you live on? Oh wait, you live in Adams-Morgan or Georgetown or Alexandria, right? Right."
Posted by: Ace at
10:04 AM
| Comments (277)
Post contains 2298 words, total size 14 kb.
Posted by: kelley in virginia at December 21, 2010 10:09 AM (97r5C)
When are we going to stop with this shit?
Soon everything will be racist, which is what it is to the professional race mongers. hat doesn't mean that we have to acknowledge their stupidity.
Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2010 10:09 AM (e4sSD)
Ace, have you sent DrewM and Dave in Texas the memo?
Posted by: ed at December 21, 2010 10:10 AM (QLhy5)
Posted by: kelley in virginia at December 21, 2010 02:09 PM (97r5C)
Yes, unless you use the feet to perform voodoo.
Posted by: FUBAR at December 21, 2010 10:10 AM (McG46)
And pass the collards while you're at it.
Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2010 10:12 AM (5Rurq)
The soft racism of low expectations.
Racism: You arent allowed do XYZ because your black.
Liberal Enlightenment: You are unable to do XYZ without our help because your black.
Is one really any better than the other????
Posted by: Barrack Obama at December 21, 2010 10:13 AM (J5Hcw)
No. But if you serve pan fried chicken to blacks, even if they like it, now that's racist!
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 21, 2010 10:13 AM (9hSKh)
How about this.....
I dislike fried chicken. Or fried anything for that matter.
Surely that makes me racist.
Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 21, 2010 10:13 AM (pLTLS)
The double standard is enforced by somebody.
Tell me how you're dealing with that and I'll give a rat.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:14 AM (GBXon)
1 As a person of pallor who grew up in Alabama, does just the fact that I love watermelon and fried chicken (without considering that I'm from Alabama) make me racist?
2 a black woman taught me to pan fry chicken. does that make me a racist?Yes. Indisputeably. I haven't quite figured out the logic of it, but rest assured, your racism is responsible. Somehow.
Posted by: ed at December 21, 2010 10:14 AM (QLhy5)
Posted by: cali grump at December 21, 2010 10:14 AM (hL0k8)
Posted by: Enlightened Liberals at December 21, 2010 10:15 AM (RD7QR)
"Small potatoes"?
That's a crack at the Irish, isn't it?
I'd return the insult but I haven't a fucking clue what Ewoks eat so all I have to say is....Good day to you, Sir.
Posted by: DrewM. at December 21, 2010 10:16 AM (HicGG)
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 21, 2010 10:17 AM (9hSKh)
If the stereotypes are true, then blacks are non-tasters.
Weird.
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster if you don't know what I'm talking about.)
Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 21, 2010 10:17 AM (bjRNS)
Posted by: ace at December 21, 2010 10:18 AM (nj1bB)
Posted by: ace at December 21, 2010 10:18 AM (nj1bB)
Posted by: AngelEm at December 21, 2010 10:18 AM (NLxRE)
What are we going to do to punish it? Fry it again?
Posted by: Blue Hen at December 21, 2010 02:11 PM (R2fpr)
You should probably pipe down.
Posted by: FUBAR at December 21, 2010 10:19 AM (McG46)
Maybe we should post our green's and chicken recipes.
I use Paula Deen's fried chicken recipe. It has a little hotness from the frank's hot sauce and egg mixture you dip the chicken in before dredging it the flour.
Posted by: Long Time Lurker at December 21, 2010 10:20 AM (TiURi)
"Small potatoes"?
That's a crack at the Irish, isn't it?
I'd return the insult but I haven't a fucking clue what Ewoks eat so all I have to say is....Good day to you, Sir.
Well, I know they tried to eat Luke, Chewie, Leila, Han, and maybe R2D2, so I'd say meat is a pretty safe bet.
If you want to get bold, try to work in something about oily used car parts as a food product.
Otherwise, stick with meat.
Posted by: ed at December 21, 2010 10:20 AM (QLhy5)
And I'm a white girl and I love that stuff.
You're just trying to usurp Black Culture©
Posted by: Racial Grievance Mongers at December 21, 2010 10:20 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: maddogg at December 21, 2010 10:20 AM (OlN4e)
Wait, has this been confirmed to be true? Or some liberal writers version of the truth? As in, I think I heard "boy" in there?
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at December 21, 2010 10:21 AM (xQAv5)
I dislike fried chicken. Or fried anything for that matter.
Surely that makes me racist.
Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 21, 2010 02:13 PM (pLTLS)
No, but it does make you an uncultured, ignorant Yankee who doesn't know what's good in life.
Poor dear.
Posted by: FUBAR at December 21, 2010 10:21 AM (McG46)
I don't care how many dago-guinea-wop-greaseball-goombas come out of the woodwork, Johnny Fontaine will never get that part!
Posted by: Jack Woltz at December 21, 2010 10:21 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: The Mega Indepedent at December 21, 2010 10:22 AM (BSeGu)
riots, is suggesting hearings for Rush and Beck.
Posted by: justin cord at December 21, 2010 10:22 AM (c0+w5)
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 21, 2010 10:22 AM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2010 10:23 AM (5Rurq)
Posted by: Guy Fawkes at December 21, 2010 10:23 AM (xQAv5)
Posted by: Never Mind at December 21, 2010 10:24 AM (pn6Nq)
34 I like corn beef, pastrami, and rye bread. Does that make me Jewish? Oh wait I am?
Me too, except for that corned beef shit. Is that stuff passed through a hog or a goat prior to packaging?
Posted by: maddogg at December 21, 2010 10:24 AM (OlN4e)
Whoa -- Ace went straight to the "phase 4" throwdown, in a follow-up post no less. Clear a path.
In unrelated news and based entirely on sidebar pics I saw at this very blog, vapid commie village bicycle Katie Couric is smoking hot for a chick her age. Discuss.
Posted by: VJay at December 21, 2010 10:24 AM (gQ+XA)
Posted by: Moi at December 21, 2010 10:25 AM (Ez4Ql)
It's not even sorta bad to mock a racist. That's what Barbour did. He did say "watermelon" (to mock a racist). Is that stand-alone bad now? If so, nice racist blog you got here.
And if Barbour is, in fact, a racist—which we have no idea if he is or not, because neither of his Controverial Statements even so much as hint at whether he is or not—it's fucking Serling-quality irony that he's become a literacy test.
Know what? Fuck it. I'm deciding he's a racist, right now, just so I can enjoy that. And y'all can enjoy sharing your political affiliation with so many racists, a new one is exposed! every couple days.
Racists.
Posted by: oblig. at December 21, 2010 10:25 AM (x7Ao8)
I don't care how many dago-guinea-wop-greaseball-goombas come out of the woodwork, Johnny Fontaine will never get that part!
Posted by: Jack Woltz
Now that is funny!
Posted by: ed at December 21, 2010 10:25 AM (QLhy5)
Hey, isn't this the left's take on taxes?
Low taxes are evil, but hell if I'm going to pay a penny more then my tax accountant tells me the is the minimum I have to pay to avoid going to jail. And this is ok because I am pushing for other people to pay higher taxes!
Posted by: 18-1 at December 21, 2010 10:25 AM (7BU4a)
You know what all this accomplished ... I am now hungry for fried chicken
This. I might need to make a Bojangles run. Like their biscuits too.
Or I could mix in a McRib....
Posted by: Delta Smelt at December 21, 2010 10:26 AM (aUE7j)
Posted by: Rajiv Vindaloo at December 21, 2010 10:26 AM (JZsC+)
Posted by: Fritz, sucking on a pair of seedless melons at December 21, 2010 10:27 AM (GwPRU)
My condolences go out to your family. They loved you very much.
Posted by: VJay at December 21, 2010 10:27 AM (gQ+XA)
Posted by: LC Scotty at December 21, 2010 10:27 AM (wjLYn)
Baking was for turkeys and "bog" was for critters like squirrel, dove, and quail.
Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2010 10:27 AM (e4sSD)
Liberals are really at their most annoying when they get all self-congratulatory and pat their own backs at how, because of their beliefs, they are possessed of gint-in-your-eye john Wayne macho magic.
I have a specific liberal asshole in mind when I say that, but it applies to a whole bunch of those assholes.
Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (tcSZb)
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Rajiv Vindaloo at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (JZsC+)
Posted by: Jack Woltz at December 21, 2010 02:21 PM (uFokq)
"Well, let me tell you something, my kraut, mick friend. I'm gonna make so much trouble for you you won't know what hit you"
Posted by: Delta Smelt at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (aUE7j)
My wife is Polish/Czech. When we got to visit the neighborhood where she grew up.... I tease here when we cross the "border" and all the houses are painted orange with purple trim and the grass cant cant grow because of all the lawn gnomes and fake flamingos stuck in the front yards.
I myself have to enforce the "only two lawn ornaments at a time" rule at our house about twice a year.
Posted by: fixerupper at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (J5Hcw)
There were no quotes around what was said. There is a reason for that. Howell Raines (known for the Jayson Blair scandal, the vendetta against the Master's tournament and explicitly politicizing all the reporting of the NYT from the sports to the style section) wrote the story.
He may be a total partisan liberal jerk, but he's no idiot and he knows the journalistic game. He didn't put quotes because he didn't quote anything. He knew if he were called on the carpet, he'd be able to pass it off as his interpretation. If he puts it in quotes, he's liable. In fact, the only word in quotes is the word "coons" (allegedly said by the aide). You'd think he would have better recall.
In addition, Raines gives a motivation to the speaker, Barbour. Namely, he says that Barbour only made the remark for fear of being overheard by the press.
If Barbour's remark were racist, then why would he say it out of fear that the media had heard the aide's remark? If Barbour were so eager to smooth the feathers of the NYT reporter, wouldn't he just chastise the aide in a straightforward manner?
Even in Raines' characterization, the reader is supposed to interpret the remark as heavy sarcasm and a serious put-down of the racist aide.
Which brings another question: Do we know the aide wasn't black?
Good point about "acceptable" mocking of racism, Ace. Hell, I didn't even know grape soda was a stereotype until I saw it on an episode of Family Guy. But libs are all up on the latest racial slurs and stereotypes.
Because (dirty little secret) they project when they call people racist. They're the racists. Their racism just takes the form of paternalistic condescension.
Posted by: AmishDude at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (T0NGe)
Posted by: Moi at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (Ez4Ql)
Outside of Thurmond pretty much all of the Dixiecrats stayed Democrats in good standing. Racist, black hating Democrats, but really, that's still the norm - they just don't talk about it in public so much now...
Posted by: 18-1 at December 21, 2010 10:28 AM (7BU4a)
Posted by: maddogg at December 21, 2010 10:29 AM (OlN4e)
...and Blazing Saddles was racist, as was Airplane, and Little Rascals, and Sambos restaurants, and All in the Family, [sarc off] as is the Congressional Black Caucus and La Raza ....
Chief Justice John Roberts nailed it when he wrote, "he way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."
Posted by: Count de Monet at December 21, 2010 10:30 AM (XBM1t)
A couple of points here:
Umm, this is a food thread. What the hell are you doing w/the commentary here?!
Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 21, 2010 10:30 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2010 10:30 AM (Q8JPV)
Posted by: 18-1 at December 21, 2010 10:30 AM (7BU4a)
Big problem, as I see it, is we've left the media in Left hands for far too long. If we're going to neutralize that as a factor, it's going to require a focus on getting more outlets out of Left hands and into, well, at the very least more honest and balanced hands, if not outright into our own. Starts are being made, but given the behavior of the FCC of late we're not going to be able to assure the First Amendment means what it says until it gets brought to heel. (I hate the 'problems all the way down' nature of the landscape, but there it is.)
So then. Media organizations in friendlier, or at least more honest, hands is a start. An FCC that isn't used as a partisan weapon is also good--some severe limits on its power will be required, which means Congressional conservatives with cojones. (Yeah, I know, good luck with that.)
This means folks with resources are going to have to step forward, in a big way. (If any of those are out there reading this, a. let us know, and b. I'll be shocked.) It also means the process has to be kept honest--the whole Newsweek sale business should have been dragged into court and scuttled straight-up on any number of grounds. (Yes, this implies the courts need work too. I'm trying to focus on one issue here, but there's a lot that needs to be done.)
You will notice, at no part are new regulations involved in this process. Indeed, some of the current ones that are being shamelessly manipulated need to go if we're ever going to curb the power of the one-party media. The whole incestuous circle needs to be broken up if we're ever going to make any progress in driving our message home. The problem I've had is that nobody has even seemed interested in addressing the issue, thus forcing us into the equivalent of WWI infantry charges, over and over. We're going to have to abandon that tunnel vision, and fast, if we're going to get through this mess and find anything on the other side besides oblivion.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:30 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2010 02:23 PM (5Rurq)
Yeeeaaahh. They love blacks, and hope to meet one someday. Meanwhile, we hate blacks, and yet 20-30% of the people we interact with on a daily basis are black.
Or, as a buddy once said, "Yankees love blacks as a group and hate them individually, while Southerners hate them as a group and love them individually."
Posted by: FUBAR at December 21, 2010 10:30 AM (McG46)
Fucking fry me already!!!!
Posted by: The Chicken at December 21, 2010 02:14 PM (BSeGu)
Just as soon as I'm done choking you...
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at December 21, 2010 10:31 AM (BDH94)
There were so many great scenes in The Godfather, but one of the best was Tom's (Robert Duvall's) reaction to Woltz.
He put down his fork, wiped his mouth his napkin, and said very dryly, "I'm German-Irish."
And to top it, Woltz came right back with the "kraut-mick" line you posted.
What a beautiful movie.
Posted by: Jack Woltz at December 21, 2010 10:31 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Andy at December 21, 2010 10:31 AM (5Rurq)
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 10:32 AM (B9rV2)
Posted by: Khartoum at December 21, 2010 10:32 AM (0GFWk)
Or I'll be panned.
Posted by: Blue Hen at December 21, 2010 02:28 PM (R2fpr)
You been hittin' the sauce? Mmmmm... sauce.
Posted by: The Mega Indepedent at December 21, 2010 10:32 AM (BSeGu)
On a serious note on this topic, as a Native Southerner™ who has lived most of the last 15 years in the North, the notion that whites in the south are mostly eeevvvilll unrepentant racists while those in the north are mostly enlightened crusaders against racism is laughable to the extreme.
This reminds me of Charles Barkley's opinion of living in Philadelphia and how disillusioned he was after being there a while. In short, he decided that he preferred Alabama because in Alabama he knew which white people were bigots because they wouldn't hide it, while in Philadelphia he couldn't tell because the bigots would say one thing to his face but another thing behind his back.
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at December 21, 2010 10:33 AM (JxMoP)
We're such eunuchs.
Disney practically disowned Song of the South.
You think we'll ever see reruns of F-Troop on TV again?
Posted by: Soothsayer at December 21, 2010 10:33 AM (uFokq)
My condolences go out to your family. They loved you very much.
If you gotta go, go with a smile!
Posted by: The Joker at December 21, 2010 10:33 AM (9hSKh)
Nope. That line by Tom comes at the studio, before the dinner.
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 10:34 AM (B9rV2)
Posted by: Jack Woltz at December 21, 2010 02:31 PM (uFokq)
Big time. The Frank Sinatra/Johnny Fontaine "From Here To Eternity" connection is pretty obvious as well.
Oh and to stay on topic...I kind of like grape soda. Drank a few 40s back in the day.
Posted by: Delta Smelt at December 21, 2010 10:34 AM (aUE7j)
Posted by: JackStraw at December 21, 2010 10:34 AM (TMB3S)
Posted by: AmishDude at December 21, 2010 10:34 AM (T0NGe)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 21, 2010 10:35 AM (Q8JPV)
We had diversity day at work. People brought in food from their culture. We, a tad liberal namby pamby, but I don't turn down pork from around the world.
Anyway, African American booth had fried chicken. So...
I think the objection that it is racist is only sustainable as an objection to using stereotypes against only one group. Otherwise, using stereotypes isn't inherently racist if they are by and large true. Guess what? Irish eat potatoes. Chinese drink tea.
Posted by: Randy at December 21, 2010 10:35 AM (D0PNd)
Where Indian fights are colorful sights were nobody takes a lickin'.
Where Redman and Paleface both turn chicken.
Posted by: Captain Wilton Parmenter at December 21, 2010 10:36 AM (J5Hcw)
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 21, 2010 10:36 AM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at December 21, 2010 02:33 PM (JxMoP)
Yeah and it's kind of funny how a city like Boston, even to this day, has a reputation of not being kind to black athletes. A city in the liberal mecca. I believe the Red Sox were the last team to integrate with Pumpsie Green in the late 50s.
Posted by: Delta Smelt at December 21, 2010 10:36 AM (aUE7j)
“In Haley Barbour's case, I'm guessing that at the time he said this……..”
ItÂ’s this type of mindset that makes us lose before we start. Haley Barbour is dead to us now. If all it takes is one mention by the NY Times to establish something as hardened fact in the mind of conservatives, what effect do you think it has on independents, especially when reinforced by statements like this?
Posted by: jwest at December 21, 2010 10:36 AM (qeYI9)
The book explains why killing that horse was significant to Woltz.
It wasn't just meant to scare Woltz for his own life, i.e., the Don can 'get to him' anytime he wanted.
It was to show how ruthless the Don can be when someone crosses him. The horse was such a beautiful animal, Woltz thought, so anyone who could destroy such a creature must be evil.
Posted by: Soothsayer at December 21, 2010 10:37 AM (uFokq)
Where Indian fights are colorful sights were nobody takes a lickin'.
Where Redman and Paleface both turn chicken
"I'm warning you Dobbs!"
Posted by: Corporal Egon at December 21, 2010 10:37 AM (R2fpr)
My wife is Polish/Czech. When we got to visit the neighborhood where she grew up.... I tease here when we cross the "border" and all the houses are painted orange with purple trim and the grass cant cant grow because of all the lawn gnomes and fake flamingos stuck in the front yards.
I myself have to enforce the "only two lawn ornaments at a time" rule at our house about twice a year.
Anybody who goes through life knows that these little stereotypes of all races and sexes exist for a reason.
Hell, half the time, they're pretty funny.
I guess if we could all just agree to not be, you know, total pricks about them, we'd all get along better.
Now I totally understand why fixerupper limits the lawn decorations to two. It's because every other square foot of lawn is taken up by broken down cars on cinder-blocks and disassembled auto transmissions.
Am I lying, fixerupper?
Posted by: ed at December 21, 2010 10:37 AM (QLhy5)
"Broken homes" being a nice way of saying "divorce and illegitimacy".
To a large extent, poor social circumstances and poverty might help explain why certain individuals are more prone to criminal activity. But given that the majority of poor individuals aren't criminals, they certainly don't justify it.
Posted by: looking closely at December 21, 2010 10:37 AM (6Q9g2)
Posted by: nerdygirl at December 21, 2010 10:38 AM (uG7PE)
Posted by: Eric Holder at December 21, 2010 10:38 AM (T0NGe)
Posted by: Biden at December 21, 2010 10:38 AM (0GFWk)
Nope. That line by Tom comes at the studio, before the dinner.
oh, yeah, you're right. When he showed Woltz his card?
Posted by: Soothsayer at December 21, 2010 10:39 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Mandy P. at December 21, 2010 10:40 AM (MK6Kx)
If you have the occasion to and the fixation to remember, try this:
when at your local 7-11, Gas'n'Go, whatever, loiter near the counter and see who buys menthol cigarettes. Report back after 2-3 days.
I KNOW what your results will be (unless you live in a lily white, whitebread community that has .01 blacks per 100 whites.
Also, chickens are easier and cheaper to raise than say, cattle or pigs. Ergo, small farmers and rural dwellers tend to have a few around and guess what? When they stop laying eggs: Chop, Chop.
Ditto with watermelon other field melons and other greens (collard, rhubarb, wild onions etc.) They're found everywhere, they grow like, well, like weeds and they better than eating sawdust or dirt.
Many of the foods that are associated with black folks are actually associated with poor rural dwellers with low or no income.
And it's not white folks with the thin skin as far as the regular teasing, burns and other assorted pointed remarks made to your fellow travelers on this one way trip called LIFE.
Posted by: jakee308 at December 21, 2010 10:41 AM (fhTf7)
There is citizen Barbour, governor Barbour and presidential candidate Barbour.
As a man from the deep South, no one should care.
As a governor, its problematic.
As a POTUS candidate, he is finished.
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 10:41 AM (3DIBw)
Well.... truth be told..... I have had more than one vehicle up on the blocks at a time.....
.... but NEVER on the FRONT lawn......
Posted by: Captain Wilton Parmenter at December 21, 2010 10:41 AM (J5Hcw)
If not, at the very least some nod that yes, I indeed tried to deliver something more than griping and snarking would be appreciated.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:42 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: fixerupper at December 21, 2010 10:42 AM (J5Hcw)
Posted by: maddogg at December 21, 2010 10:43 AM (OlN4e)
Posted by: Biden at December 21, 2010 02:38 PM (0GFWk)
Here's another interesting thing about race (thanks, Joe). Which party elected two Indian-American governors in the South?
Yep.
Now, to underscore this point, it isn't like either Louisiana or South Carolina have some huge Indian-American population. Those racist white southern Republicans were voting happily for somebody who doesn't look like them.
I don't see a lot of Indian-American governors in blue states.
Posted by: Eric Holder at December 21, 2010 10:45 AM (T0NGe)
Posted by: nerdygirl at December 21, 2010 02:38 PM (uG7PE) Holy shit, are you a 120 years old? If not, where did you grow up where that shit still happens.
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 10:47 AM (3DIBw)
I don't see a lot of Indian-American governors in blue states.
Posted by: Eric Holder at December 21, 2010 02:45 PM (T0NGe)
They govern all the 7-11s
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 10:48 AM (3DIBw)
Nuh-uh. I'd rather go on being a Hideous Right-wing Racist© than read anything Doc Zero writes.
He's the only blogger I know who rivals Ace for going on and on and on (and on and on) about pretty basic shit.
I like cogent commentary. Dead-horse beating, not so much.
Posted by: MrScribbler at December 21, 2010 10:48 AM (Ulu3i)
I don't know about LA but there is a reason Haley won in SC. One of the first things she did this year after the election is name a lawyer to head the department of labor who specializes in fighting unions. I quote "South Carolina is a right to work State and we want to keep it that way".
This was to make sure that the new Boeing plant didn't have any "union problems".
Posted by: Vic at December 21, 2010 10:49 AM (e4sSD)
Posted by: tsj017 at December 21, 2010 10:49 AM (4YUWF)
Posted by: maddogg at December 21, 2010 10:49 AM (OlN4e)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:50 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: tsj017 at December 21, 2010 10:50 AM (4YUWF)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:51 AM (GBXon)
If they use the joke...it ain't funny.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:51 AM (GBXon)
SNL always makes sure to either have a black guy deliver the fresh racist punchline or to be the mildly outraged straight-man. This gives them a free pass to stereotype unmercifully. If they didn't bring along the assumption of Upper West Side goodwill and a black fellow for cover they'd be in the shit for Newports and grape soda as much as anybody.
To test this yourself, step on to Amsterdam Avenue and hit up the brothers for a Newport and a grape soda. You could even do it in urban-speak, like this: "Hey Bro, got a Newport you can spare, along with some grape Nehi?" Then laugh uproariously, like we're all in on the same joke.
Report back.
Posted by: spongeworthy at December 21, 2010 10:53 AM (rplL3)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:54 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff, Chairman of the Non-Partisan Anti-Chinese League at December 21, 2010 10:54 AM (Q8JPV)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:55 AM (GBXon)
Q: Why do Italian men wear gold chains?
A: So they know where to stop shaving!
Q: What's the difference between an Irish funeral and an Irish wedding?
A: One less drunk!
(BTW, 1/2 Eye-talian, 1/2 Irish)
Posted by: Vote for Pedro at December 21, 2010 10:56 AM (0ba8c)
And if we have to go the 'First Nations' route, I'm outta here. That's just too pretentious by half.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:57 AM (GBXon)
From Wikipedia:
"The tomato is native to western South America and Central America. In 1519, Cortez discovered tomatoes growing in Montezuma's gardens and brought seeds back to Europe where they were planted as ornamental curiosities, but not eaten.
Most likely the first variety to reach Europe was yellow in color, since in Spain and Italy they were known as pomi d'oro, meaning yellow apples. Italy was the first to embrace and cultivate the tomato outside South America."
So, what did Italian cooks use for spaghetti sauce before the arrival and integration of the tomato into their everyday life in the 16th century?
How long does it take for a food item to be indelibly associated with a particular culture?
Posted by: Count de Monet at December 21, 2010 10:57 AM (XBM1t)
I get drunk and make everyone a surrender offer they can't refuse.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 10:58 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord
Did you ever see the sitcom about the guy who was shipped to India to manage an outsourced operation? He was trying to explain Thanksgiving to the staff, and referred to 'Native Americans'. When one of his employees asked weren't they referred to as Indians, he replied, "no, because they found the term demeaning." The look on the face of the staff was priceless.
Posted by: Corporal Egon at December 21, 2010 10:58 AM (R2fpr)
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 11:00 AM (3DIBw)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:01 AM (GBXon)
<i>When one of his employees asked weren't they referred to as Indians, he replied, "no, because they found the term demeaning."</i>
That's a pretty good joke right there. Wish I'da thought of it.
125, I haven't seen KFM since it came out, and I was probably trying to work up the nerve to put my arm around my date through most of it.
Posted by: spongeworthy at December 21, 2010 11:01 AM (rplL3)
Let's just stick with 'good enough' for now, no?
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:03 AM (GBXon)
Ever notice there are no good Kraut jokes.
I feel soooo disenfranchised.
Posted by: fixerupper at December 21, 2010 11:03 AM (J5Hcw)
And, about those northern liberals versus the south - as a black woman I've felt more uncomfortable traveling in parts of Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts than I have traveling in any part of the south. And, let us not forget the "racist elements" of the Democratic party up north that we saw during the 2008 primaries.
Posted by: sillyme at December 21, 2010 11:04 AM (T8h7U)
That is, unless we are black Southerners (which is where the largest % state wise of black Americans live), in which case none of this applies.
Posted by: GnuBreed at December 21, 2010 11:04 AM (h0RtZ)
Kinda like how any country taking land in a war is OK unless it's Israel, you mean?
Posted by: Ian S. at December 21, 2010 11:05 AM (p05LM)
First, I'm caling bullshit on the comments about the "Yankees". I live in Philly, and, hey, I even know a few black people. The city is about 55 percent black, dontcha know. Not to try to be a martyr, but I've dealt with racism far worse than anything Obama has gone through. Come to 15th and Market on a Friday afternoon, watch and listen to the "Black Israelites" as they show what the hell hate speech really is. I don;t know ho wit is down south, my exposure to Dixie has been limited to Disney World and "Deliverance".
.Second, whoever said that Katie Couric is hot in that sidebar picture needs to have his glasses adjusted.
Posted by: Luca Brasi at December 21, 2010 11:05 AM (YmPwQ)
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 11:05 AM (3DIBw)
Actually, tomatoes aren't necessarily the most-used sauce today.
There's pesto, creams sauces, aligue pastas ...
I did mention that I married into an Italian family, and they cook, right?
Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 21, 2010 11:05 AM (bjRNS)
It's those numbskulls from places where you can't get sweet tea that cause all the havoc...
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:05 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff, Chairman of the Non-Partisan Anti-Chinese League at December 21, 2010 11:05 AM (Q8JPV)
Posted by: Brian at December 21, 2010 11:06 AM (sYrWB)
Posted by: Drew M' at December 21, 2010 11:07 AM (LwLqV)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:08 AM (GBXon)
Thomas Jefferson had slaves a constant companions throughout his life, but especially after his wife died. His slaves lived in better conditions then some white colonialists. Jefferson also felt he had a social obligation to care for slaves under his household and feared conditions they might encounter if released into a very unaccommodating environment at the time.
This in no way justifies the keeping of slaves and Jefferson knew it. But nonetheless he also felt a strong sense of obligation. The context is important, since liberals today would call this social responsibility. But the Republican, democratic ideals which Jefferson so strongly held infect liberals head like a fever. So they dissemble into mantra like chants of "Jefferson was a slave holder" as if that dismisses the greater, lasting good and sagacious ideals he promoted that made us the country we are today.
But perhaps that's a little to didactic for this board?
Posted by: Ghost of Caractacus at December 21, 2010 11:09 AM (CHrmZ)
Overnight, it seems. Nachos were invented on Padre Island, in Texas. Caesar Salads were invented in Baja.
I could go on.
Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 21, 2010 11:10 AM (bjRNS)
Posted by: Drew M' at December 21, 2010 03:07 PM (LwLqV)
I think the historical context was good. Geraghty had good points. If we are talking about a POTUS bid, I do think he's in trouble.
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 11:10 AM (3DIBw)
Feed it some tryptophan-laced tofu. Maybe it'll go back to sleep...
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:10 AM (GBXon)
And, about those northern liberals versus the south - as a black woman I've felt more uncomfortable traveling in parts of Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts than I have traveling in any part of the south. And, let us not forget the "racist elements" of the Democratic party up north that we saw during the 2008 primaries.
Posted by: sillyme at December 21, 2010 03:04 PM (T8h7U)
As a white man I've never felt more comfortable around black people than in the deep south. Especially in rural areas.Blacks up north in blighted urban areas are frequently quite intimidating.
Posted by: Ed Anger at December 21, 2010 11:11 AM (7+pP9)
That's because the Germans aren't funny.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 21, 2010 11:11 AM (8y9MW)
You tell 'em Archie.
Posted by: Rick Sanchez at December 21, 2010 11:12 AM (5Rurq)
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 21, 2010 11:12 AM (0GFWk)
But perhaps that's a little to didactic for this board?
Didactic's fine. Pedantic is considered bad form... ;-)
Posted by: fixerupper at December 21, 2010 11:12 AM (J5Hcw)
Ugh. Rotkohl. Blech. :p
You see German vegetables, and you understand why they wanted to conquer Europe.
Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 21, 2010 11:13 AM (bjRNS)
Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 21, 2010 11:13 AM (eCAn3)
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:13 AM (GBXon)
Posted by: AngelEm at December 21, 2010 11:14 AM (NLxRE)
I'd rather drop Yankee jokes on you.
So how bout that Cliff Lee?
Posted by: Delta Smelt at December 21, 2010 11:14 AM (aUE7j)
You tell 'em Archie.
Posted by: Rick Sanchez at December 21, 2010 03:12 PM (5Rurq)
Agreed!
Posted by: Helen Thomas at December 21, 2010 11:14 AM (3DIBw)
Posted by: andycanuck at December 21, 2010 11:15 AM (2rOwc)
Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 21, 2010 11:16 AM (1Jaio)
Posted by: Moo Moo Meadows at December 21, 2010 11:16 AM (LwLqV)
Posted by: joncelli© at December 21, 2010 11:17 AM (RD7QR)
How long does it take for a food item to be indelibly associated with a particular culture?
Not long at all. I brusquely chide SWPL's who admit to eating Tofurkey or Fakin' Bacon.
Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 21, 2010 11:17 AM (QMtmy)
Man. I could sure go for a Kool break about now but Michelle's been nosing around lately.
Posted by: president part-timer obama (D-ivot) at December 21, 2010 11:17 AM (2rOwc)
Posted by: nevergiveup at December 21, 2010 11:17 AM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Journolist at December 21, 2010 11:17 AM (LwLqV)
Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 21, 2010 11:18 AM (eCAn3)
And look at the Republican leaders coming out in defense of Barbour!
Posted by: Soothsayer at December 21, 2010 03:18 PM (uFokq)
< Hey, when conservative bloggers won't even defend him . . .
Posted by: Journolist at December 21, 2010 11:19 AM (LwLqV)
As soon as the media/DNC puts the taint on one of us, we're outcasts.
Who's next?
Why, Chris Christie, of course.
Posted by: Soothsayer at December 21, 2010 11:19 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Chas at December 21, 2010 11:20 AM (D1yfa)
@40: "In unrelated news and based entirely on sidebar pics I saw at this very blog, vapid commie village bicycle Katie Couric is smoking hot for a chick her age. Discuss."
Yeah, I could strangle her all day!
Posted by: Inmate from the Family Guy episode where they sing in the prison at December 21, 2010 11:20 AM (xy9wk)
Soothsayer, perhaps Drew can pass on the screed that Christie is a Fat Racist.
That would be large.
Posted by: Journolist at December 21, 2010 11:21 AM (LwLqV)
That's because the Germans aren't funny.
I've heard the German language doesn't lend itself easily to humor because of word order (verbs at the end, etc.) makes it awkward.
I think that's also why I never thought Yoda was funny either, the little prick.
Posted by: Dr. Varno at December 21, 2010 11:22 AM (QMtmy)
Overnight, it seems. Nachos were invented on Padre Island, in Texas. Caesar Salads were invented in Baja.
I could go on.
Posted by: Meiczyslaw at December 21, 2010 03:10 PM (bjRNS)
True dat. The Margarita was "invented" multiple times between 1934 and 1948 and is now an icon of Tex-Mex restaurants.
Posted by: Count de Monet at December 21, 2010 11:22 AM (XBM1t)
With respect to the lack of German jokes, its to their credit that they assimilated quicker than most cultures. During WWI and WWII many made an additional effort to embrace their environs.
But according to our liberal lords, assimilation isnt cool. They prefer their phony diveristy, hyphenized Americans and the Balkanization of America.
Posted by: Helen Thomas at December 21, 2010 11:22 AM (3DIBw)
@56: "By the way, how can you tell when Italian cars get flat tires?
When they do, dago wop wop wop.
(I'm of Italian heritage so I can say it.)"
----------------
Have you heard about the Italian clock? Every 24 hours you see a dago.
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at December 21, 2010 11:23 AM (xy9wk)
Posted by: TEE866 at December 21, 2010 03:21 PM (iJoe/)
usually around 5. depends on how much I've been drinking.
Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 21, 2010 11:23 AM (eCAn3)
Why, Chris Christie, of course.
The problem they're having is that "he's meeeean to rich union hacks who want to call children the N word" isn't a narrative that works with the voting public.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 21, 2010 11:23 AM (p05LM)
Word.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:24 AM (GBXon)
>> Ace, have you sent DrewM and Dave in Texas the memo?
What part of "I'll wait and see" before I draw any conclusions was so confusing to you? I even used monosyllabic words.
Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 21, 2010 11:24 AM (WvXvd)
Posted by: the *real* helen thomas sock at December 21, 2010 11:25 AM (2rOwc)
Posted by: maddogg at December 21, 2010 11:25 AM (OlN4e)
Posted by: Det. Ray Hughes at December 21, 2010 11:26 AM (xy9wk)
Posted by: iknowtheleft
And for bonus points, let's note that the phrase 'beyond the Pale' referred to the wild uncivilized (still Gaelic) parts of Ireland that hadn't received the blessings of civilization, as delivered by the British. The counties around Dublin are referred to as 'the Pale'.
Posted by: Papist bograt at December 21, 2010 11:26 AM (R2fpr)
This may be a little deep for the morons, but here goes...
It was precisely the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution which first cast the lights (in any official capacity) that would lead to slavery being seen as an immoral evil. The Founding Fathers were smart enough that I believe most, if not all, of them knew that.
The only reason (and it's a big reason, don't get me wrong) slavery is wrong is that it is an affront to Man's Natural Rights- and until the United States, no nation had taken that idea as a founding principle- not even Rome itself. Until Man's Natural rights were acknowledged, there was no understood moral basis (see my next opus: Why Morals are Concrete, Regardless of How They're Understood) to oppose slavery at all.
Part of the reason for this, though, is that the very definition of "slavery" had changed drastically in a relatively short time (the 'Slave Trade' really didn't get started until the 1640's, or so). Until that time, most slaves were thought of more along the lines of what were later called "indentured servants." They were people who forwent any direct kind of compensation in return for room and board. It was not at all an unusual arrangement.
I'm guessing that part of what made it so hard for many of the Founding Fathers to give up slavery is that so many of them (IIRC, there weren't that many plantation owners) still used slaves in that capacity. Even the concept of "buying" them wasn't completely foreign- it had previously been a way in which someones indenture changed hands.
I'm guessing Thomas Jefferson (among others) was firmly in this group: he knew that Slavery as it existed then was evil, but also knew himself, and his treatment of his slaves, as not evil. And so he faced a moral dilemma: keep his slaves, thereby continuing to prop up this evil practice, or release his slaves into conditions which would probably have been much worse for them? I don't know how I would answer that question.
re: Haley Barbour- I think he's reacting to this kind of thing (especially yesterday's kerfuffle) all wrong. He needs to explain why he's right, not apologize because some liberal has decided he's wrong. For example: "People today see the Citizens Committees as evil, racist organizations. Indeed, most or all of them were, by today's standards. My quote was specifically about Yazoo City, and there- whatever their motivations- they did the right thing as regards the integration of our schools- which was the only subject addressed by that quote."
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 21, 2010 11:28 AM (8y9MW)
The counties around Dublin are referred to as 'the Pale'.
Meh...... so are you my future scalp trophy.....
Posted by: Leonard Peltier at December 21, 2010 11:28 AM (J5Hcw)
@79: "We're such eunuchs.
Disney practically disowned Song of the South.
You think we'll ever see reruns of F-Troop on TV again?"
Yet the phrase "Paddy Wagon" endures.....
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at December 21, 2010 11:29 AM (xy9wk)
Meh...... so are you my future scalp trophy.....
Posted by: Leonard Peltier
Good luck with that.
Posted by: West Cork IRA flying column at December 21, 2010 11:29 AM (R2fpr)
Posted by: Fat, ugly, white chick at December 21, 2010 11:30 AM (sYrWB)
You know what sucks? Hate crimes legislation.
Half of the posters here would be convicted felons if Eric Holder could get his hands on you.
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 11:30 AM (3DIBw)
Racist!!!!
Saints preserve us! Ye cannaugh resist insulting we Irish!
Posted by: Y-not, offended Mick at December 21, 2010 11:32 AM (IDL9N)
Posted by: ace at December 21, 2010 11:33 AM (nj1bB)
Posted by: torabora at December 21, 2010 11:34 AM (H7kGc)
I so want to get a bumper sticker with a picture of an indian chief crossed out and the phrase "You lost, get over it."
Posted by: Alex at December 21, 2010 11:34 AM (yY28H)
Just don't ping them when THEY make racist comments as you'll be racist for pointing it out.
Posted by: Sponge © at December 21, 2010 11:35 AM (UK9cE)
fify
Posted by: Y-not, stirring the pot 'cause she's a dirty Mick at December 21, 2010 11:38 AM (IDL9N)
But you know how they say, don't complain if you didn't vote? Yeah. Same principle. At least I'm trying to figure it out and suggest something. If you've got nothing, say so and deal.
Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 21, 2010 11:39 AM (GBXon)
Those already exist. I've seen them on a couple of lib cars. That's why I want one my version: to piss people off.
Posted by: Alex at December 21, 2010 11:41 AM (yY28H)
My mom took me to see the Godfather premiere, and I remember how she squirmed when the titties came out.
22 years later, I took her to the opening of Short Cuts, and then it was MY turn to squirm when Julianne Moore stood with her vajayjay pouting right in front of the camera lens.
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 11:42 AM (fqe5N)
Posted by: Brian at December 21, 2010 11:42 AM (sYrWB)
@226: " I so want to get a bumper sticker with a picture of an indian chief rebel flag crossed out and the phrase "You lost, get over it."
fify"
-------------
Three hundred thousand Yankees lie still in Southern dust
We killed three hundred thousand, before they conquered us.
They died of Southern fever, of Southern steel and shot
I wish it was three million, instead of what we got.
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at December 21, 2010 11:44 AM (xy9wk)
---
We are shutting down AoSHQ to advertising fried foods to mental defectives.
Posted by: Food Safety Czar at December 21, 2010 11:45 AM (IDL9N)
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 03:42 PM (fqe5N)
(I dont know what that has to do with anything, but thanks for reminding me to go see Black Swan. I heard the lesbian sex scene between Mila Kunis and Natlaie Portman is on fire.)
Posted by: swamp_yankee at December 21, 2010 11:45 AM (3DIBw)
re: Haley Barbour- I think he's reacting to this kind of thing (especially yesterday's kerfuffle) all wrong. He needs to explain why he's right, not apologize because some liberal has decided he's wrong.
Did Barbour apologize? I missed that.
I agree with you. He shouldn't.
Posted by: Y-not at December 21, 2010 11:48 AM (IDL9N)
Posted by: Journolist at December 21, 2010 11:49 AM (LwLqV)
The problem they're having is that "he's meeeean to rich union hacks who want to call children the N word" isn't a narrative that works with the voting public.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 21, 2010 03:23 PM (p05LM)
Also hurts that mayor Booker defends virtually all of his major policy positions.
Those two are attached at the hip.
On the subject of Barbour..why the fuck is this even relevant? He made a bad joke. He is from the Old South. How the hell would anyone expect him NOT to have some gaffes on the subject? His party didn't seek out and lynch people like the Donks did. He could play that card well in his defense- in the late 50s and early 60s, Democrats were inseperable from the Klan in much of the south.
Posted by: CAC at December 21, 2010 11:49 AM (lV4Fs)
No, i'm not doing that, and will advise everyone else against that too.
Posted by: ace at December 21, 2010 03:33 PM (nj1bB)
Oh! Will you make up my mind already!!?!?1/!/!/!//!?????!eleventy!
Posted by: Confused Moron at December 21, 2010 11:51 AM (Q1lie)
Posted by: cali grump at December 21, 2010 11:52 AM (hL0k8)
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 11:56 AM (fqe5N)
Posted by: Brian at December 21, 2010 11:57 AM (sYrWB)
Meh. It's not bad. It's really more of a clarification than an apology.
Has anyone found any response from Barbour's campaign in 1982 to the NYT hit piece?
Posted by: Y-not at December 21, 2010 11:57 AM (IDL9N)
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 11:58 AM (fqe5N)
Posted by: naturalfake at December 21, 2010 12:08 PM (+kzvp)
She said, "I went to the grocery store today and I was waiting in line when I felt this presence looming behind me."
"So I turned around and there was this giant black man standing there. He was so big my eyes came about to his waist. And I looked and saw he was holding just one item. A watermelon."
"And then I looked up. And our eyes met."
"He stared at me. I stared at him. And then I just slowly turned back around and tried not to move."
The thing that made this story so damned funny to me wasn't the stereotype of the black man with the watermelon. It was that both my mother and the black man were aware of the stereotype. And that the awareness made everyone feel so awkward.
It helps if you know my mother, too, I guess. She's just got the funniest sense of humor about her.
Posted by: Warden at December 21, 2010 12:10 PM (HzhBE)
Question: Did Dave in Texas get a memo from Ace regarding Haley Barbour?
Answer: "...the answer would be "I did it, it was stupid and I'm sorry".
Dave in Texas at December 21, 2010 12:15 PM (WvXvd)
Posted by: ed is channeling the NYT and smirking like a chimp at Dave in Texas, but not in a racist way... at December 21, 2010 12:11 PM (QLhy5)
Posted by: Warden at December 21, 2010 12:13 PM (HzhBE)
Posted by: 29Victor at December 21, 2010 12:18 PM (ES9R7)
Posted by: General William Tecumseh Sherman at December 21, 2010 12:25 PM (YmPwQ)
Posted by: Haley Barbour quotes from the NYT at December 21, 2010 12:27 PM (2dOeM)
I believe liberals DO want to "normalize" crime - if you are a member of one of their preferred victim groups.
Justice and punishment would be meted out according to some sort of goofy weighted system that factored in whether you were a member of an approved victim group, a liberal, a conservative, what you were thinking at the time (hate crimes & speech), your sex, etc. All this would be tossed in a blender by a liberal judge and mixed so as to produce an outcome that fits the PC grid of the moment. The judge would have to decide whether a minority group trumps a female, which minority group gets preference, whether a liberal guy gets a pass while a conservative gal does not - a virtual intellectual feast that only liberal elites would be capable of deciphering. And don't forget, all the standards can change at any time depending on the liberal fetish of the moment.
Posted by: RM at December 21, 2010 12:35 PM (GkYyh)
Answer: "...the answer would be "I did it, it was stupid and I'm sorry".
Dave in Texas at December 21, 2010 12:15 PM (WvXvd)
What the hell? You insisted I give you an alternative answer for Barbour (calling it a flat out lie) for "what if he really said it, careless slip, whatever, so I gave you one.
I really don't understand what you're getting at ed (I don't think you do either, you're all over the board on this). What's your fucking objection here? Did you want me to give him an automatic pass when I don't know if it's true, or are you claiming I'm crucifying him (again, when I don't know whether or not it's true)?
I said "I'm going to wait and see", i.e. "watermelon, Citizens Councils, and whatever the hell else may or may not come up, whether it's substantiated or not, and then I'll form an opinion on it.
Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 21, 2010 12:35 PM (WvXvd)
... and how he responds to it.
Is it that you don't think he should have to respond? You'd be flat wrong about that.
Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 21, 2010 12:37 PM (WvXvd)
Yes, but we are prompt and efficient.
We also tend to have good posture.
Posted by: Warden at December 21, 2010 12:37 PM (HzhBE)
Posted by: railwriter at December 21, 2010 12:41 PM (daRzV)
Two things that libs believe about racism: 1) Racism is uniquely American, and 2) In a world full of evil and terrible injustices of all kinds, racism is by far the Worst Thing Ever, and must be not only discouraged, but must be ostentatiously, viscerally, <i>dutifully</i> reviled at every opportunity (even if the "opportunity" has to be manufactured.)
Posted by: gp at December 21, 2010 12:45 PM (fqe5N)
I've never gotten how "Watermelon" and "friend chicken" began to get treated as high-level racial slurs.
"Friend" chicken?
We're more than friends.
Posted by: Big Media at December 21, 2010 12:48 PM (sWynj)
Dave in Texas at December 21, 2010 04:35 PM (WvXvd)
Dave, those comments upstream got all tangled up when I cross commented to you and DrewM to the point that I hardly remember who said what to whom when, where, or why.
Anyway, I snarked you a bit. Perhaps succinctly, perhaps not. So it goes...
Anyway, whatever small outrage!!11!11! I possessed earlier is completely disipated by now and I'm not gonna belabor this anymore.
So feel free to consider this your final victory over me, the unwashed dullard and that you gave me a vigourous thrashing with your walking stick and we'll call it even.
Because I'm a giver.
Posted by: ed at December 21, 2010 12:48 PM (QLhy5)
"It was to show how ruthless the Don can be when someone crosses him. The horse was such a beautiful animal, Woltz thought, so anyone who could destroy such a creature must be evil."
It went even deeper than that. Woltz says no, one time, to the Don's offer and Hagen quietly leaves.
That very next morning Woltz finds the chopped off head of the priceless racing horse in his bed. No counter-proposals, no second chance, no threats or warnings that you don't want to mess with the Corleone family, no menacing scowls from Tony Soprano types at work over the next few days, no labor strike or anything that he might possibly have a chance of dealing with. And after Woltz absorbs the total ruthlessness of the gesture, he has to have some nagging thoughts about how the Don reached out through Woltz's own empire and people to make this happen overnight. No internet or cell phones in those days, guys.
And when Woltz finishes wrapping his mind around all that, he has to start pondering what the hell the Don might do if he dared to say "No" a second time.
I think you just sign Johnnny Fontaine to the contract. STAT.
Posted by: RM at December 21, 2010 12:55 PM (GkYyh)
Posted by: Mr. Naron at December 21, 2010 12:58 PM (moLg0)
Friends with benefits. *wink*
Posted by: The Chicken at December 21, 2010 12:59 PM (HzhBE)
Forgive me, but the take-home message I got from that story was: "Ah, Claremont, the liberal enclave that imports its blacks (but makes sure they go home to Pomona on the bus)."
Yeah, I hated Claremont. Sold our house there last week. I hope the entire San Gabriel Mountain range slides down onto the whole damned village in a big pile of mud.
Posted by: Y-not at December 21, 2010 01:15 PM (IDL9N)
Posted by: garrett at December 21, 2010 01:15 PM (aJBUX)
I have never been to a summer picnic which did not feature fried chicken and watermelon.
I genuinely don't understand the whole, "black people like watermelon and chicken" thing.
Yes, they do.
So do white people.
Would it be racist to suggest that black people like cold beer and ice cream?
Kind of silly, isn't it?
Posted by: Sam Adams at December 21, 2010 01:23 PM (1kwr2)
Posted by: Museisluse at December 21, 2010 01:38 PM (DTfXb)
Posted by: Brian at December 21, 2010 01:47 PM (sYrWB)
I loved the summer extended family gatherings when I was a kid in Texas... fried chicken, ribs, watermelon...
I'm just confused as to whether I'm racist or not, since I was bornin in Caliornia, lived in Texas during my junior high and high school years, then moved back to California, where I have lived since (except for being stationed in West Germany when I was in the Army).
Posted by: malclave at December 21, 2010 02:05 PM (OCRaO)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I don't read in the first amendment freedom from insult, a sensitivity mandate or a requirement to remove all reference to religion, Christ or Christmas.Posted by: Ohio Dan at December 21, 2010 02:05 PM (vBhu/)
Posted by: TheoB at December 21, 2010 02:21 PM (JnltO)
Posted by: tsj017 at December 21, 2010 02:49 PM (4YUWF)
Lol. Actually, watermelon really is African, from the Congo region.
Last picnic I went to, a sistah almost had to elbow the white people out of the way to get to the watermelon.
Posted by: baldilocks at December 21, 2010 03:19 PM (T2/zQ)
Posted by: baldilocks at December 21, 2010 03:31 PM (T2/zQ)
Or, to reference another joke to demonstrate the similarity, it's been established what you are, and you're just haggling on price.
Posted by: Just a guy at December 21, 2010 04:16 PM (T5ofy)
Back in 1990, the Columbia School of Journalism published a list of words newspapers were to avoid - one of the terms was "fried chicken", implying it was to be avoided because it racist.
Mike Royko bluntly wrote a response rejecting the CSJs restrictions.
He ended with "Fried chicken, fried chicken, fried chicken. I said it and I'm glad. Sue me."
Too bad I can't find the column online - it was a gem.
Nothing like "fried chicken" on the grill, followed by a slice a "watermelon"... so sue me.
Meanwhile, McDonalds always seems to have a black guy hawking its McRib sandwich. Isn't that just a bit racist?
Posted by: FrankReality at December 21, 2010 05:25 PM (lT+xk)
Posted by: Darby O'Gill at December 21, 2010 06:15 PM (VxqUc)
I love me some fried chicken and watermelon. I guess that makes me as black as the ace of spades.
Really, I laugh at this logic. It's so stupid.
Posted by: Case at December 21, 2010 09:20 PM (0K+Kw)
Posted by: bill glass at December 22, 2010 07:05 AM (X3g+Q)
Posted by: cackfinger at December 22, 2010 12:14 PM (TUBcJ)
Posted by: matthew at December 22, 2010 06:45 PM (c1gfP)
Posted by: Case at December 22, 2010 11:06 PM (0K+Kw)
http://tinyurl.com/26232go
www.gopmall.com
Posted by: Jane Smoote at December 23, 2010 07:45 AM (oAljz)
Posted by: asics shoes at December 23, 2010 10:07 PM (Uw8og)
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Now, here's my question: does just the fact that I love watermelon and fried chicken (without considering that I'm from Alabama) make me racist?
Posted by: FUBAR at December 21, 2010 10:07 AM (McG46)