August 20, 2010
— Gabriel Malor And here I was worrying that voters would eventually wrap their minds around ObamaCare, not supporting it exactly, but getting used to it. Not opposing it outright or calling for repeal.
Democrats are acknowledging the failure of their predictions that the health care legislation would grow more popular after its passage, as its benefits became clear and rhetoric cooled. Instead, the presentation is designed to win over a skeptical public, and to defend the legislation — and in particular the individual mandate — from a push for repeal.[...]
The presentation concedes that groups typically supportive of Democratic causes — people under 40, non-college educated women, and Hispanic voters — have not been won over by the plan. Indeed, it stresses repeatedly, many are unaware that the legislation has passed, an astonishing shortcoming in the White House's all-out communications effort.
"Straightforward ‘policy’ defenses fail to [move] voters’ opinions about the law," says one slide. "Women in particular are concerned that health care law will mean less provider availbality – scarcity an issue."
The presentation also concedes that the fiscal and economic arguments that were the White House's first and most aggressive sales pitch have essentially failed.
"Many donÂ’t believe health care reform will help the economy," says one slide.
The presentation's final page of "Don'ts" counsels against claiming "the law will reduce costs and deficit."
The strategists also told Democrats that they should start talking about "improving" ObamaCare. And that's really why this new strategy is good for us. Because you don't fix anything that ain't broke.
Voters already suspected that ObamaCare -- solely a Democratic creature -- was an abomination from the start. Why else hold special Christmas Eve sessions, pass portions of it at night, and bribe members to support it? But with this strategy, Democrats will have confirmed voters' savvy suspicions: ObamaCare is bad.
Why would voters who already dislike ObamaCare be receptive to arguments from its creators that they will fix their own monstrous creation...so long as they get reelected? (Answer: they won't.)
What fortuitous timing: Results from the latest CNN/Opinion Research poll on Obamacare:
Just 44 percent favor the health care mandate, which has yet to take effect. Nearly the same number – 45 percent – favored the bill when it passed. Forty-nine percent favored the mandate in November 2009.Fifty-six percent oppose the mandate, up 3 percentage points from when the bill passed.
Unreported in Politico, but available in the full results (PDF), 56 percent oppose ObamaCare in its entirety (not just the individual mandate).
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at
05:49 AM
| Comments (124)
Post contains 446 words, total size 3 kb.
Maaaaan...even when they acknowledge the obvious, they still find a way to insult the people's intelligence...
Posted by: DarkLordOfTheIntarWebs at August 20, 2010 05:52 AM (IkEhE)
Ah, the intellectual giants that are the voting base of the Democrat party. This has to be an excuse, right? How could anyone with any awareness of politics not know the bill passed? Or do they mean the benefits haven't become apparent enough for these groups to notice?
Posted by: Methos at August 20, 2010 05:54 AM (ZgsIj)
ObamaCare is Tax Payer Funded Health Care.
The CBO was gamed by the democrat party.
PelosiCare a deficit buster, it's a jobs killer and it's anti-free market in every way.
Republicans would be smart to run against ObamaCare. No fear.
No amount of glitter and unicorn dust will make ObamaCare work, anyway. It's a disaster.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 20, 2010 05:54 AM (0fzsA)
Not gonna piss on your logic or anything but, don't you think that if that was the case there'd be other groups that, once they found out about its passage, that love it?
No?
Huh, funny that.
Posted by: jimmuy at August 20, 2010 05:56 AM (jXG2x)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 20, 2010 05:57 AM (rr5XB)
Oops. Can I borrow a hundred trillion dollars?
Posted by: Office of Management and Budget at August 20, 2010 05:58 AM (sOtz/)
The resaon the presentation and selling of ObamaCare hasn't worked - is because it's all lies.
Government Run tax-payer funded health care is doomed to be a failure, no matter how good the sell job. Turning doctors and nurses into slaves of the state - won't work. Raising taxes to pay for it, won't work. Forcing people to purchase something they don't necessarily want, won't work. Gaming the CBO with bogus forecasts and economic half-truths, won't work. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, won't work. Killing-off free market incentives, won't work. Forcing health care to be more "affordable" to some, will only end up making it more expensive for almost everyone else.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 20, 2010 06:01 AM (0fzsA)
Thank God, that mess is finally behind us.
Posted by: Lincolntf at August 20, 2010 06:01 AM (IKf7L)
as a professor of really smart stuff that you neo cons would not understand i must chime in on this wingnut problem with healthcare.
1- it will help the economy by killing off old bastards....
2- it will lower the deficit because we will refuse to cover all rethugs...
3- GO FUCK YOURSELVES RACISTS
PS- 4 - WE NEED THE TAX MONEY OR ALL US GUBMINT WORKERS WILL HAVE TO GET REAL JOBS....RACISTS
Posted by: professor von poopypants at August 20, 2010 06:02 AM (n0C4a)
o0bamacare is a huge dud with the Indies. They're the white collar demographic that is already getting communications from corporate about changes to their (generally good) health benefit plans.
They wanted postpartisan and postracial instead they got a post up their ass.
Posted by: kallisto at August 20, 2010 06:04 AM (+FkcS)
Posted by: erectusmaximus at August 20, 2010 06:04 AM (GvYeG)
Posted by: MoSov.org at August 20, 2010 06:06 AM (/nZ2Y)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at August 20, 2010 06:07 AM (0GFWk)
It's going to be tough to repeal the provisions on preexisting conditions and coverage for adult 'children'.
Slogan:
"Obama in 2012: doesn't want to murder sick babies and college kids."
The problem with any entitlement, no matter how counterproductive, wasteful and financially unsustainable, is that the supporters can always pull a sick/poor person to the side of the podium and win the 'argument' over whether we can afford it.
Posted by: Beagle at August 20, 2010 06:07 AM (sOtz/)
Certainly nobody in your home district seemed to have a problem...
Posted by: Zeta Reticulan Ambassador at August 20, 2010 06:07 AM (IkEhE)
"Under my Health Scam, no one's benefits will change except the unions, theirs will get even better due to sacrifices made by the private sector"
Posted by: Precedent Letmebeclear at August 20, 2010 06:08 AM (+FkcS)
Posted by: Lady in Black at August 20, 2010 06:09 AM (M6enm)
If everyone really understood how horrible PelosiCare is, that 56% number would skyrocket. Just like the Obama deficit.
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at August 20, 2010 06:10 AM (0fzsA)
Soon, one hopes, they will understand what the Traitor-in-Chief meant when he promised to "transform America."
Oh, wait. Maybe the general public wants to live in a country that combines the worst features of Kenya, Indonesia and North Korea. If so, they're getting what they want.
Posted by: MrScribbler at August 20, 2010 06:10 AM (Ulu3i)
I care for a disabled relative whose treatment is Medicaid funded. Those individuals who already are on a government plan are limited in their health care options, much more so than anyone on a private insurance plan. Even they understand the concept that the government is more likely to take away options than to give you more access to quality providers.
(When I found out the cost of the one medication that is really helping him, I became concerned that it will soon be off the list of allowed prescriptions. I haven't relayed any of this to him, his life is already difficult enough.)
Posted by: kallisto at August 20, 2010 06:16 AM (+FkcS)
Posted by: bill-tb at August 20, 2010 06:17 AM (y+QfZ)
So, should we be ordering another batch of zerohedge's Dow 10k (from the top) hats again?
Posted by: Methos at August 20, 2010 06:23 AM (ZgsIj)
Posted by: Waiting for DiogenesLamp to hold forth on this thread too at August 20, 2010 06:24 AM (1PeEC)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at August 20, 2010 06:25 AM (0GFWk)
Oh, that life-enhancing drug is soooo banned. Suck it, peons.
Posted by: Donald Berwick, Bureaucratic Ghoul at August 20, 2010 06:26 AM (gQ+XA)
Really? Can I move the bridge somewhere else? Because those Park Slope bastards are frickin' annoying as hell. Almost as annoying as those Trig deniers.
Posted by: Waiting for DiogenesLamp to hold forth on this thread too at August 20, 2010 06:28 AM (1PeEC)
Dem Strategists: Stop Saying ObamaCare Reduces the Deficit, Nobody Believes You
ObamaCare DOES reduce the deficit ... by 3000%.
Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 20, 2010 06:29 AM (5TNVe)
They wanted postpartisan and postracial instead they got a post up their ass.
OK, that made me snicker.
Posted by: MaureenTheTemp at August 20, 2010 06:29 AM (8kq7+)
21-37-22-18-54-01
Posted by: fortune cookie
Between the sheets?
Posted by: guy hopi9ng that the fortune cookie game works in real life at August 20, 2010 06:31 AM (R2fpr)
Posted by: bigred at August 20, 2010 06:32 AM (cX9pO)
Posted by: bigred
You can thank me now.
Posted by: Manufactured Messiah at August 20, 2010 06:33 AM (R2fpr)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at August 20, 2010 06:33 AM (kFODZ)
Posted by: idiot who doesn't listen at August 20, 2010 06:34 AM (R2fpr)
The problem with any entitlement, no matter how counterproductive, wasteful and financially unsustainable, is that the supporters can always pull a sick/poor person to the side of the podium and win the 'argument' over whether we can afford it.
Which is why the Republicans should have brought out long lines of people who were screwed over by Medicare, Tricare, the VA, etc.
Posted by: Mama AJ at August 20, 2010 06:35 AM (XdlcF)
Posted by: Joanie (Oven Gloves) at August 20, 2010 06:36 AM (HaYO4)
So 56% of the country suffers from Virginitiphobia- Fear of rape.
Posted by: dananjcon at August 20, 2010 06:37 AM (pr+up)
It's funny 'cuz today the department of energy asshole up here in MA was pimping the silly Cape Wind Farm project.
He said it will raise costs in the short term and then lower energy costs in the long term.
Fucking Democrats say this about everything. When they proposed the Big Dig they said it will cause more traffic during construction and then when it's done we'll have no more traffic in Boston!
Traffic is worse than ever. Health care costs are higher than ever. Everything the government does sucks.
Posted by: I'm Video Professor, buy my CDs at August 20, 2010 06:40 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Just Another Poster at August 20, 2010 06:42 AM (HAdov)
Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 06:43 AM (Pm5H8)
mornin bigots & bigettes
Posted by: I'm Video Professor, buy my CDs at August 20, 2010 10:36 AM (uFokq)
Hmmm, I like my bigetts with cream cheese and a little jelly.
Posted by: dananjcon at August 20, 2010 06:43 AM (pr+up)
The Democrats version of "I Won't Nut in Your Mouth."
-- it will create jobs
--boost the economy
--reduce costs
--make us safer
All. Lies.
Posted by: I'm Video Professor, buy my CDs at August 20, 2010 06:43 AM (uFokq)
Posted by: Penfold at August 20, 2010 06:43 AM (1PeEC)
You know what probably tastes really bad? Beetlejuice.
To wash that taste away, click on the sidebar article for bacon pancakes.
Mmmmm, pancakes.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at August 20, 2010 06:43 AM (kFODZ)
Posted by: I'm Video Professor, buy my CDs at August 20, 2010 10:40 AM (uFokq)
Profound and succinct, would make an excellent bumper stick.
Posted by: dananjcon at August 20, 2010 06:46 AM (pr+up)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 20, 2010 06:47 AM (UOM48)
That sentence encompasses everything wrong with politics, politicians, and the media. The "arguments" were false and were known to be false from the beginning. Yet, politicians stood with straight, botox-laced (see what I did there) faces and claimed economic benefits they knew were lies. So, had the "arguments" succeeded would we be better off? Would that make them true? Hardly. But, it's the success of the "argument" that matters, not their validity or truth.
Posted by: The Hammer at August 20, 2010 06:47 AM (32ubA)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 20, 2010 06:48 AM (UOM48)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 20, 2010 10:47 AM (UOM4
Or live in the White House and last name rhymes with Yo-mama.
Posted by: Radioactive Satellite Of LOVE at August 20, 2010 06:49 AM (zqzYV)
Posted by: Nancy "Love Dumpling" Pelosi at August 20, 2010 06:51 AM (YVZlY)
Posted by: Waiting for DiogenesLamp to hold forth on this thread too at August 20, 2010 10:28 AM (1PeEC)
I do not know who this is (chemjeff?) but damn....that was funny.
Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 10:48 AM (OWjjx)
Kratos new sock maybe? Didn't he decapitate Diogenes and use his head/eyes as a lamp?
Posted by: dananjcon at August 20, 2010 06:52 AM (pr+up)
Yeah, that ObamaCare bill has to go. Repeal it and replace it with a free-market solution like what should've been done in the first place. Since Obama and the Dims poll numbers have tanked, the squishes in the GOP might, might have the fortitude to actually run on a platform of repeal, not only for ObamaCare, but for the financial reform bill too.
The knuckle-draggers (that would be us, as viewed from Washington) have finally broken the code that Obama cares not a whit about us, our feelings, or our country. Opposing him and the Dim agenda is the way to win. They also need to get serious about tax cuts and true deregulation (starting with the abolition of the EPA, formerly an "extreme" right wing position that doesn't sound so extreme anymore, now does it?), so they can't just waltz into power without a valid plan for getting the country back on track after years of progressive failures.
We know what needs to be done. We are no longer content to trust politicians with the keys. We also must tell them where the gas cap is located and what all those pedals are for.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at August 20, 2010 06:54 AM (kFODZ)
If that guy can't beat Franknbeans this year, nobody can.
Posted by: logprof at August 20, 2010 06:55 AM (BP6Z1)
I was watching Morning Joe.....I know, I know...what can I say?? I just a glutton for punishment...
...and Jon Meacham...the guy that ran Newsweek into the ground...said that the reason that Jug Ears is so unpopular is that we are too stupid to understand his greatness..
...he said that Jug Ears is so fucking intelligent that we can't keep up
I damned near needed a corpse-man to revive me after I heard that
Posted by: beedubya at August 20, 2010 06:55 AM (Q3TFM)
Posted by: replica handbags at August 20, 2010 10:22 AM (VG0Bj)
A self aware spam bot. And one coming to realize the futility of its existence.
Posted by: Randy at August 20, 2010 06:56 AM (zQKSr)
Posted by: Minnie Rodent at August 20, 2010 06:57 AM (PZLW0)
Au contraire. It's new adaptation allows opportunistic chances for reproduction, as evidenced by post #40 as well as your own.
Life finds a way.
Posted by: Lincolntf at August 20, 2010 06:58 AM (IKf7L)
Posted by: grumpy at August 20, 2010 07:00 AM (SbsTp)
Posted by: bigred at August 20, 2010 07:01 AM (cX9pO)
I don't get it. What went wrong? I just wanted free stuff. I always support anyone or anything that promises me free stuff. You know, stuff I don't have to work for or contribute to. I'm still waiting for my free CT scan and free visits to the chiropractor and the free visits to Weight Watchers. I sure hope Imam Obama knows what he's doing, because I'm starting to think I made a big mistake. I kinda feel dumber than a box of rocks. Or is that a bag of hammers? I dunno.
Posted by: 52%er at August 20, 2010 07:02 AM (554T5)
Posted by: always right at August 20, 2010 07:03 AM (HmCnI)
I'm sure if Israel simply agrees to evacuate its lands and vanish, the Palis, Clinton and the Traitor-in-Chief will almost be satisfied.
Posted by: MrScribbler at August 20, 2010 07:04 AM (Ulu3i)
Posted by: grumpy at August 20, 2010 07:05 AM (SbsTp)
Posted by: grumpy at August 20, 2010 07:07 AM (SbsTp)
It's payback time...prepare your squeakhole for the bear
The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Likely Voters in Arkansas shows Boozman capturing 65% of the vote, while Lincoln earns 27% support...Lincoln was reelected to a second Senate term in 2004 with 56% of the vote, but her political fortunes in the state have plummeted since she cast a procedural vote late last year to keep President ObamaÂ’s healthcare bill alive
If you thought the chicken had been getting it bad, you ain't seen nothin' yet
Posted by: beedubya at August 20, 2010 07:07 AM (Q3TFM)
The stupid in Mika is strong. And Joe has just become another useful idiot for his lefty masters.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 20, 2010 07:08 AM (UOM48)
As the number of taxpayer voters who have had it with fuckface grow, Jugears and the Dems seem more hell bent on shoveling mass amounts of shit sandwiches down our throats. I truly believe that they intend to cause mass civil unrest in order to declare Marshal Law, suspend elections, and begin the press for complete "Hard Tyranny", yes, a full blown dictatorship.
Posted by: Sparky at August 20, 2010 07:12 AM (r0u40)
Why can't the RNC (paging Mr Steele, What up?) run an ad that outlines the timetable, against Ogabe's promise to put bills on the internet for 5 days, and run on a platform of repealing and defunding this complete piece of shit. Every R candidate should run on repealing this and continually asking their D opponent what his position is on the law. Simple, are you for or against repealing this?
Posted by: Hedgehog at August 20, 2010 07:15 AM (oQIfB)
I'm sure if Israel simply agrees to evacuate its lands and vanish, the Palis, Clinton and the Traitor-in-Chief will almost be satisfied.
Posted by: MrScribbler at August 20, 2010 11:04 AM (Ulu3i)
And they are going to set a 1 year deadline for the negotiations to be completed. That's such bullshit. Obama wants to be the fucking hero in the White House when the Israeli's and the cocksucking pals finally reach an agreement.
Posted by: conscious, but incoherent at August 20, 2010 07:16 AM (YVZlY)
...that groups typically supportive of Democratic causes — people under 40, non-college educated women, and Hispanic voters — have not been won over by the plan.
Typical Dems: Trust us. We are doing this FOR YOUR OWN GOOD.
Posted by: always right at August 20, 2010 07:18 AM (HmCnI)
The muzzies Dems only hurt me rape my healthcare because they love me.
Posted by: Kathleen Parker's triple ripple butt plug at August 20, 2010 07:21 AM (dQdrY)
109 and a global strudel ban, don't forget that
Ice cream is however ok -- but only coconut flavor, and only for qualified recipients who have proven they will use the ice cream in a responsible manner.
Posted by: unknown jane at August 20, 2010 07:22 AM (5/yRG)
Posted by: The FWOTUS's lower colon at August 20, 2010 07:24 AM (dQdrY)
Suggestions for bumper sticker entrepreneurs out there:
Obamacare is a BIG DUD. Let's all work together to REPEAL it.
In 2010 join with the Party of NO to say NO to Obamacare.
Honk if you want Obamacare Repealed (You know you do)
Repealing Obamcare will be a satisfying bi-partisan effort. Let's do it!
Hey Hey, Ho Ho, Obamacare has got to go. Your vote in November matters.
Posted by: elissa at August 20, 2010 07:26 AM (B+Nb4)
There will be no settlement unless the Israelis are more suicidal than I think. They know how far they can trust Osama Obama and Hitlery Clinton: as in not at all.
"Oh, Israel? Those peace-loving Iranians don't have nukes and they won't use them on you even if they do have them, which of course they don't."
"No, our fingers aren't crossed behind our backs...."
Posted by: MrScribbler at August 20, 2010 07:27 AM (Ulu3i)
Posted by: How I quit fearing, and learned to love Israeli bombs at August 20, 2010 07:33 AM (dQdrY)
You can imagine my disappointment.
Posted by: Sam at August 20, 2010 07:40 AM (Cxsey)
Posted by: Fire Control at August 20, 2010 07:43 AM (dQdrY)
Reform the Health Care Reforms? Shit, I guess they should've read the damn thing.
Does this call for reform mean they've read it now. Every Dem, including non-incumbants, who spouts this line should be asked when they bothered to read the bill. If they say they havent, the next question should be "Then how do you know which part needs to be reformed?"
In conversations I like to drop the line "Do these idiots have any clue what they are doing?" I really don't care what the answer is. I simply want to repeat over and over and over, without regard to motive, that we end up with damaging imbecilic policies from incompentent idiots.
Posted by: Mr. Barky at August 20, 2010 07:54 AM (qwK3S)
Posted by: Jean at August 20, 2010 07:58 AM (LqcF2)
Just want to make sure I understand the nuance of this issue completely:
we have to pass the bill to see what's in it... then reelect those who passed it without reading or understanding what was in the bill to improve it?
OK, gotcha. Makes perfect sense
Posted by: glimmer of sanity in a mad mad world at August 20, 2010 08:00 AM (TD3sw)
Posted by: evil libertarian at August 20, 2010 08:07 AM (5zWSu)
Posted by: Charlie Gibson at August 20, 2010 08:22 AM (+lsX1)
"There's a lot of doom and gloom about it, but I think we're going to do a lot better than people think," Tim Kaine, the Democratic Party chairman, told Democrat National Committee members at a two-day meeting. "We've got a long way to go, but I think a number of factors are moving in the right direction for us."
Just like the economy is moving in the right direction
Posted by: TheQuietMan at August 20, 2010 08:22 AM (kI4PT)
Let me be clear. As I have always said, we put Joe in the rotunda, and told him to sit in the corner. We'll lead him out after the recovery summer.
Posted by: CUS at August 20, 2010 08:25 AM (wOGfT)
Posted by: Crashland at August 20, 2010 08:33 AM (zuzIm)
Waterhead retards.
Posted by: someone out there at August 20, 2010 08:33 AM (y0Gb3)
The strategists also told Democrats that they should start talking about "improving" ObamaCare.
I have news. Dems aren't the only ones who will be promoting "smarter" gov't healthcare.
Posted by: Mitt Romneycare at August 20, 2010 08:34 AM (K/USr)
In my book, The Road to Serfdom, I warned that politicians that promise "potential plenty" (i.e., follow their master-plan and enjoy all the free stuff) were either lying or didn't know what they were talking about.
It is nice to know that the Democrats have come around to my way of thinking.
Posted by: Zombie Friedrich Hayek at August 20, 2010 09:03 AM (bCQG3)
We are all Socialists stupid now.
Posted by: Jon Meacham (formerly) of Newsweek at August 20, 2010 09:10 AM (64S5N)
Very hush-hush emergency surgery. Following his full frontal lobotomy, the docs realized they hadn't gotten it all.
Posted by: Reiver at August 20, 2010 09:15 AM (64S5N)
I like your chances of repealing Obamacare, based on my completely subjective experience on a recent roadtrip to NC.
Normally when my husband and I go to the USA, if our Canadianness is even noticed, no one really cares. This time, we ended up staying a bit longer than planned and my husband ran out of insulin in Indiana.
In order to get a prescription we had to find a doctor, which we did within an hour (that has never happened at home. I've never had less than 3 week's wait for an appointment with my own doc). When we talked to the doc we spent about 3 minutes getting the prescription, and 45 minutes answering questions about Canada's health care system. Three of the clinic's doctors came in to talk to us, and they were extremely focused and grim.
Of random citizens we met along the way, nearly every one wanted to talk about health care as soon as they found out where we were from. It was surreal, and unlike anything I've experienced on prior trips. Nearly everyone we talked to was worried and upset, even before we told them about what they had to look forward to.
Of course, our sample pretty much consisted of middle class folks and medical staff, so not quite a complete cross-section of the nation. But I did not meet one person who was happy about the change. Good luck, friends.
Posted by: Delicious Lead Paint at August 20, 2010 09:16 AM (xBDXf)
I have some relatives that are Canadians (hey, their parents migrated to Canada looking for work during the Great Depression) and at a recent family reunion they were telling us about how they do volunteer work at a local Canadian hospital. When they explained all the things that they did, Mrs Cop (a nurse) was stunned. Unpaid volunteers had to keep things moving in the hospital.
Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at August 20, 2010 09:24 AM (bCQG3)
Posted by: ed at August 20, 2010 09:29 AM (Urhve)
Posted by: DavidM at August 20, 2010 10:22 AM (R/e5b)
I have a few mottoes in life, one of them is "You try to tell people, but they just won't listen."
Thanks for the luck, we need it. Those 52% vote, and I doubt most of them are smarter today than they were in 2008.
Posted by: Merovign, Strong on His Mountain at August 20, 2010 11:33 AM (bxiXv)
In "Obamacare" we are seeing the lethal corruption of Chicago politics writ large.
The government saves money by never providing the health care that was promised.
Posted by: 1389AD at August 20, 2010 08:06 PM (YiYoE)
Posted by: Timberland boots at August 24, 2010 01:45 AM (vtZf+)
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Posted by: phoenixgirl at August 20, 2010 05:52 AM (rr5XB)