December 28, 2010
— Ace Interesting argument.
First of all, I couldn't remember if the bit about "the general welfare" appeared only in the preamble (in which case it would be guidance, programmer's notes rather executable code, if you will) or both in the preamble and the actual Constitution; it's both. The taxing and spending clause of Article 1 mentions that monies will be spent "for the general welfare."
Barnett's and Oedel's argument here is persuasive, but it sort of requires text plus logic to get to his interpretation; liberal judges will of course resist adding in that logic, and claim that anyone who says otherwise is guilty of "judicial activism" (!!!), adding stuff to the Constitution. But this is certainly reasonable inference -- if words appear in the Constitution, they're supposed to mean something, and not mean nothing at all, as a resistant liberal will claim. The words didn't just appear there as filler. They had a point, we can assume.
The basic argument is that ObamaCare's Medicaid mandates for states plus the opt-out is coercive and violates the General Welfare clause, because if a state did exercise its right to opt out, its money would flow to Washington (and other states) without anything in return. The money would therefore decidedly not be spent for "the general welfare," as any state opting out would not have its welfare improved at all (and would in fact be reduced, as billions flow out of it to benefit the citizens of other states).
He also makes this argument with regard to the Cornhusker Kickback -- a special Nebraska-only benefit to secure the vote of one Ben Nelson of Nebraska, a situation in which dollars flow to Nebraska (to make up for their non-contribution to the costs of the program) from other states.
This is actually a rather important idea. The Cornhusker Kickback violated many people's sense of fair play, but I think many of us couldn't quite explain which rule of fair play it violated. The danger of the maneuver was clear -- if you can bribe individual states' citizens to go along with federal programs, you can create different tiers of states, with some citizens having more rights than the citizens of others, which seems, certainly, to violate the basic idea of equality in the eyes of the law.
Barnett and Oedel sharpen this up a bit, I think, by offering a more specific command of the Constitution such schemes can be said to violate. Money spent in this way is not for the General Welfare, but for the particular welfare of the citizens of one state (and not others), and thus is impermissible.
Like I said, interesting. And certainly, I think, the Constitution should stand for such an idea. Without such a command, it is quite possible that a blue state president with a blue state Congress could simply reduce taxes and other burdens on the blue states alone and hike them punitively on the red states. Some would say that will never happen, as that would spark a new civil war, but I'd like to think the Constitution itself has something within it to restrain violations of such blazing injustice such that civil war isn't necessary to retain basic fairness.
It's Old: Gabe ably covered this yesterday.
I thought this argument, while attractive, was a bit of longshot, but as Gabe mentions it just might fly:
From a litigators' perspective, this argument of Barnett's is strategically attractive because the Dole restriction, discussed in the WSJ piece, is relatively unfleshed by the courts. This case is absolutely headed for the Supreme Court and justices hesitate to overturn precedent. Dole's very vagueness gives them (ahem, Kennedy) room to maneuver because ObamaCare says 100% of Medicare dollars will be withheld from states that opt out. The justices won't have to decide a sticky question about just how much is too much coercion; it's relatively easy to say that 100% is too much.
Yes, judges don't like laying down categorical forbiddances (i.e., you can never spend more on one state than another) and try to avoid fine-tuning line-drawing about where the threshold of forbiddance is reached, as that just leads to lots and lots of litigation and more and more decisions.
That said, as Gabe notes, it's a relatively easy thing to say, in one decision, that seizing 100% of the money a state spends for one purpose to distribute it to other states is unconstitutional. Later cases may be more difficult -- how about a 25% penalty? How about a 10% penalty? -- but the 100% fuck-you confiscation is itself rather easier to call bullshit on.
Posted by: Ace at
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Posted by: Nighthawk at December 28, 2010 09:44 AM (02uN6)
I saw the article about the Louisiana Purchase etc. violating the commerce clause, but wouldn't that mean that all pork also violates the commerce clause? Help me out here...
Posted by: kevin at December 28, 2010 09:44 AM (cZBN/)
9 out of 10 voices in my head told me to skip work and clean the guns today.
Posted by: SGT Dan at December 28, 2010 09:44 AM (vBud5)
Posted by: WalrusRex at December 28, 2010 09:44 AM (xxgag)
Yeah but why does the Sec. 8 Art. I debate only come up w/Obamacare?
We should be having this debate every time these pukes try to pass a budget.
Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 28, 2010 09:48 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: garrett at December 28, 2010 09:48 AM (8XSYB)
A government that is literally trillion$$ underwater on its year over year spending, enacting another spending scheme, is nothing more than an entertainment manager on the Titanic deciding that the orchestra performance should be held aft instead of forward.
This actually doesn't matter if its legal or not.
Posted by: *Cynical* torabora at December 28, 2010 09:49 AM (YLhBm)
I hope everyone realizes what deep fecal matter we will be in over the course of the next two years if even Anthony Kennedy has a health issue, not to mention the less-than-svelte Scalia.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 28, 2010 09:49 AM (gDbxE)
Solution? The feds take over the whole thing and medicare and medicaid will be entirely federally funded. Federal, socialized medicine.
Posted by: Rocks at December 28, 2010 09:52 AM (Q1lie)
First off, A1S8 is talking about the full legislative powers of Congress. The very first one it cites is the "Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises." Those "Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises" are then supposed "to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..."
That is, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 provides Congress the power to collect revenue to pay the nation's bills. That's all it does.
The powers that Congress then has to legislate follow: borrow money, regulate international and interstate commerce, establish Naturalization and Bankruptcy rules, etc. But the phrase "general welfare" in Article 1 Section 8 is specifically an object (yay: an English lesson) of the verbs "to pay" and "to provide."
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 28, 2010 09:53 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Ugrev at December 28, 2010 09:53 AM (862vz)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff in 2012 at December 28, 2010 09:53 AM (c4Yzx)
"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare,
and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children,
establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress....
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."
So we have gone down the path he feared. Hope we have decent brakes.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 28, 2010 09:53 AM (tf9Ne)
Some guy playing pocket pool under his black robe will decide that all of us citizens are full of shit and should just shut up.
Posted by: sifty at December 28, 2010 09:54 AM (vn4ta)
And it is a damn travesty that the integrity of what remains of the Constitution, and our basic rights, depend on the health of two Justices.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 28, 2010 09:55 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: eman at December 28, 2010 09:57 AM (XXyJt)
Posted by: Granny Rictus McKrauthammer at December 28, 2010 09:58 AM (GwPRU)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff in 2012 at December 28, 2010 09:58 AM (c4Yzx)
Posted by: Michelle's Colasally Large Ass Crack at December 28, 2010 09:58 AM (EL+OC)
Posted by: Buzzsaw at December 28, 2010 01:53 PM (tf9Ne)
That's chilling. We haven't just gone down that road. Every last thing on that list has happened, and then some.
Posted by: blue star at December 28, 2010 09:58 AM (xqyiz)
I hope everyone realizes what deep fecal matter we will be in over the course of the next two years if even Anthony Kennedy has a health issue, not to mention the less-than-svelte Scalia.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 28, 2010 01:49 PM (gDbxE)
Well we could do what the leftards have done with that crone cadaver Ginsberg and stick a hand up their ass and make a puppet out of them. Turnabout is fair play.
Posted by: *Cynical* torabora at December 28, 2010 09:59 AM (YLhBm)
Insert gratuitous "Clinton appointee" joke here.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 28, 2010 09:59 AM (gDbxE)
Today, all the law revolves around case law and stare decisis. In other words, the law is whatever the SCOTUS says it is. Its how we got to the point where abortion, gay marriage and free health care are "in" the Constitution, but the "Right of the individual to keep and bear arms" was ONE vote away from being unconstitutional.
Our Constitution today is kinda like the British Monarchy...... everybody pays respect to it..... but it doesnt REALLY govern anymore.
Posted by: Cloward-Piven at December 28, 2010 10:02 AM (J5Hcw)
Hope we have decent brakes.
Who needs brakes when you can just slam into wall?
Wile E. Coyote moment: Just look down.
I'll wait.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at December 28, 2010 10:07 AM (gDbxE)
This is what we get when we elect progs who can't understand what a simple principle is. Note that, as history has receded, the principles enshrined in our Constitution have become less and less clear until we're now at the point that it says whatever some gaggle of judges says it says, instead of what the document itself clearly states.
The Fourteenth Amendment is a prime example. Even I can figure that one out. It clearly prohibits "anchor babies". This isn't rocket surgery.
The fact that Constitutional case law is what's studied instead of the words of the original document proves it. This one simple change would solve a lot of our legislative problems.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 28, 2010 10:09 AM (b6qrg)
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 28, 2010 10:12 AM (61b7k)
Posted by: Dr. Heinz Doofensmirtz at December 28, 2010 10:18 AM (/je1T)
Posted by: JackStraw at December 28, 2010 10:26 AM (TMB3S)
Posted by: Call me Lennie at December 28, 2010 10:28 AM (GOsSG)
Posted by: Dan K. at December 28, 2010 11:18 AM (BFm2s)
Posted by: Progressivism at December 28, 2010 11:24 AM (ehKDD)
This "lettermarking" thing sounds to me like typical NYT GOP-bashing bullshit.
Let's be realistic: "lettermarking" and "phonemarking" have been going on since the invention of the letter and phone. They're just Congress using Congressional influence. That's "creative" or new? Really?
Really, I'm surprised anyone at AOS would take this article at face value. It's the NYFT, after all.
Posted by: TallDave at December 28, 2010 11:43 AM (/s1LA)
Of course, nobody ever reads that phrase closely enough to realize the relationship it bears to Federalism: "general Welfare of the United States."
The general government was designed to serve the needs of the state governments—not the needs of individual citizens. This is the reason why voters did not directly elect Senators. Senators are there to represent the interests of the states, alongside the Representatives, who are supposed to represent the interests of their constituents.
There is nothing in ObamaCare that is designed to serve the needs of state governments in their relationships to each other or to foreign powers. Treaties, common defense, minting of common currency, resolution of disputes between state governments: these are the things that are intended by "general Welfare of the United States."
Posted by: Muppet Fart at December 28, 2010 12:50 PM (vEDQL)
I've really been enjoying AllenG, Iknowtheleft, socialcon, LD'sC and others.
Hell, you're better than the main bloggers.
Except Monty, Emperor of the Universe, of course.
Posted by: teej at December 28, 2010 01:08 PM (WHmDb)
How is it different than the rest of the "fuck-yous" we've been getting from these creeps since the 2006 Congressional takeover?
They're just trying to get 200 pieces of shit enacted hoping we can't possibly repeal more than 100. Ratchet effect, it's method #31 to destroy the Constitution through precedent.
Posted by: Merovign, Strong on His Mountain at December 28, 2010 05:30 PM (bxiXv)
No, no, no, No, NO! That is precisely what the libtard agenda is - "We'll give you a bunch of free shit, but we will control everything about you."
Posted by: ss396 at December 28, 2010 07:52 PM (XX7YX)
Posted by: asics shoes at December 28, 2010 10:52 PM (Uw8og)
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Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 28, 2010 09:36 AM (c4Yzx)