1 It's all Bush's fault!

2 This post keeps disappearing

3 Whups.  Lost a couple of comments there.

4 Martin Niemöller was correct.

Our government has become what this great nation was created to combat.

I now teach our children to fear and distrust the government and its minions, and that saddens me, especially because there is abundant teaching material available!

5 If this means we get less shoe span here, I'm all for it!

6

Yeah, fluffy.  I'll just repeat what Ace always says.  Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected light from Venus, causing a drop in the ambient posting temperature and the resulting "appearance" of a disappearing post.

7

rdbrewer, for a minute there I thought they nabbed this post. 

These bastards are something. The copyright issue relative to bootlegging is an issue however, they should be working in conjunction with the Doj on this type of stuff and building a case, perhaps they are however, I doubt it. This seems to be a move based on Homeland Security jurisdiction and involvement.

 

 

8 We don't see the problem here.

9 We're still safe, though, right?

10

There's more legal power behind this here sighty and if they ever touched it, I'ld be in dc faster you can say ewok.

Other than that, yes, we're safe.

11 Phase 3 of the Vast Scandi LaceWigs Conspiracy continues apace. Seems to be going much smoother than its predecessor the Vast Scandi Lutefisk Conspiracy, which fizzled like a warm RC Cola.

12 15
Phase 3 of the Vast Scandi LaceWigs Conspiracy continues apace.

Seems to be going much smoother than its predecessor the Vast Scandi Lutefisk Conspiracy, which fizzled like a warm RC Cola.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at November 27, 2010 11:00 AM (/z3Uk)

< Do they serve it with lefse?

13 I love this shit!  On other sites, mostly shiftless, hygiene deficient Euros and basement dwelling, unemployed millenials whining about how the US has no right to shut down their free music downloads.  I'm here to tell you, this is gonna galvanize the young... this is gonna be HUGE, bigger than even Rock the Vote!
Now that they've all had an internet chat tantrum, back to that great holiday TV lineup and some online gaming.
Just like the rest of us.

14 The administration is protecting it's friends, the ones that give it money. Rights and due process are not part of that equation.

15

ICE.... Immigrations and CUSTOMS Enforcment.

cus·toms [ kústəmz ]    place where dutiable goods are examined: a place where goods and baggage are examined on entering a country to see what duty is payable on them and to check for smuggled goods government agency: a government department responsible for collecting taxes on imports and for preventing illegal imports duties on goods: taxes payable on imports and exports

Appears that DATA and the Net, because of its COMMERCIAL and International Nature, now falls under ICE, at least as far as DHS and our Government is now concerned...

Courts stopped the FCC from controlling the Net, this is just Plan B.

 

 

16 13 We're still safe, though, right?

Posted by: Cheap Ewok Costumes at November 27, 2010 10:56 AM (zgZzy)

Only until the Data leaves the US.

Europe is passing laws where you can be tried and convicted for Content even if you are not IN that country....

And apparently ICE is now in charge of Data which crosees our Border...

17 Do they serve it with lefse? How the hell should I know? I'm no Scandi, and I'm a bust as a conspirator. I was a primary motivator for the Vast Mexican/Irish Corned Beef Taco Conspiracy, but we all got too drunk to steal enough to forward our nefarious plot.

18

And apparently ICE is now in charge of Data which crosees our Border...

Posted by: Romeo13 at November 27, 2010 11:05 AM (AdK6a)

< That's La Data. 

19 18 The administration is protecting it's friends, the ones that give it money. Rights and due process are not part of that equation.

Posted by: 141Driver at November 27, 2010 11:03 AM (DXa7u)

Yep.  Sounds like it.

20

This is a lot of worrying about nothing. Remember that a Democrat is president, so the executive branch can do anything it wants. Republican administrations, on the other hand, need Congressional approval to sharpen a pencil.

21 The first thing that struck me is how this is a very pointed slap at Congress.  There's a pending bill to permit this activity and there are Congresscritters who have vowed to put it on permanent hold due to how overreaching the bill is.  So I view this as a big old "fuck you" to Congress.  The Obamatrons will do what they want, no matter what. 

22 I was a primary motivator for the Vast Mexican/Irish Corned Beef Taco Conspiracy,

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at November 27, 2010 11:05 AM (/z3Uk)

They serve maalox with that?

23 Shouldn't ICE be doing something else?  Just saying, if they have time for this, they might have time for...you know.

24

And of course, earlier than on cue, Steve Duin starts the "entrapment" whispering campaign. 

Hey Steve, you ever hear of an overt act in furtherance.  Dude had plenty of chances to back out.

25 If this isn't the last straw which results in the creation of a free underground internet I don't know what will be.  Question, if they sieze a domain name can you still not just type the I.P. address?

26 It's ugly and ham-fisted. And it is difficult to see how it could be aimed at drawing the public's attention away from the travails of the TSA. Rather, it looks like another run-of-the-mill stupid move on the part of Obama and Napolitano. It will be interesting next week to see the reaction of Representatives and Senators. Posted by: Open Blogger at 10:46 AM ...assuming DHS doesn't start shutting down TV stations for being "hate" sites.

27 They serve maalox with that? You're getting to the heart of the plot. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

28 Thank goodness Homeland Security is focusing on the important stuff. This is so much more important than sealing the borders. Best thing for our homeland security would be to defund every single federal department for 1 year and see how things go. I'm still waiting for every socialist's favorite phrase, 'it's for the common good' -- either that or 'it's for the children' -- to be given as the reason for the crackdown. It's to the point I'd rather have the bureaucrats spend my tax money on crack than their stupid ass fascist nonsense; at least the crack dealers would be getting ahead and it'd create more jobs than the so-called Stimulus.

29 Yeah, fluffy. I'll just repeat what Ace always says. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected light from Venus, causing a drop in the ambient posting temperature and the resulting "appearance" of a disappearing post. Thank you, Agent J. It's more fun to blame Homeland Security.

30 The administration is protecting it's friends, the ones that give it money. Rights and due process are not part of that equation.

Yes, they are, but the problem goes to both sides of the aisle and has been expanding for years. 

31 Keep your eye on this one.  When Don't Touch My Junk started, the liberals got all Fourth Amendmenty and self-righteous.  Now, they're meekly in line and even lashing out at conservatives for questioning Dear Leader.

Look for the libs to do the same here.

32

These bastards are something. The copyright issue relative to bootlegging is an issue however, they should be working in conjunction with the Doj on this type of stuff and building a case, perhaps they are however, I doubt it.

I didn't see where the FBI is involved.  I can see where the DOJ would be involved, and, in fact, their logo is on the headline spread at Drudge.  They bring the prosecutions on cases set up by any federal agency.

This looks like all DHS and ice.  (I refuse to capitalize such a stupid acrostic.)  And I would trust the FBI much more, since that is where all the brainpower and training in federal law enforcement goes.

F/x, we had someone from the TSA at the end of comments in the pilot-TSA thread I put up yesterday.  S/he wasn't that smart, IYKWIM.  But s/he also proudly announced that s/he had move into criminal investigations within the DHS and was no longer with the TSA. 

That's reassuring.

So.  I'd feel a lot more comfortable with this if the FBI were handling it.  Having DHS do it--and having them do it in this fashion--is just creepy. 

There's a creepy element at play here.  Don't want teh creepy.

But how is it any less creepy than what is going on in airports?

Time to have Napolitano sit in front of Congress and explain. 

33 That was a super vid. Bookmarked. Thanks for posting it.

34 ...assuming DHS doesn't start shutting down TV stations for being "hate" sites. Just in time for our quarterly newsletter! (plea$e $end donation$ now. Mrs. Dees wants mink underoos for Christmas)

35 Yes, they are, but the problem goes to both sides of the aisle and has been expanding for years. 

Posted by: nickless© at November 27, 2010 11:12 AM (MMC8r)

Uh, what?

36 Government by its very nature hates its citizens. We control it or it controls us.

37

Here is the coming train of thought, which will be used to take control of the Internet... WITHOUT Congress getting involved.

ICE, also does CUSTOMS enforcement.

Downloaded music and such is a Commercial Product, thus "could" be subject to Customs.

Thus, is under the auspices of ICE.

Now, just as the Interstate Commerce clause now includes ALL commerce in the US, even growing food for yourself on your own property, because it MAY affect Interstate Commerce.... Your website COULD be sending commercial Data to another country... and IS therefore subject to ICE supervision...

Its like the stupid court and Federal regs whch say you MUST now store all email, almost indefinatly, because it MAY someday be needed for a court case...

When EVERYONE is seen by the Government as a automatic suspect... our Persons and Property is no longer protected...

38 Yes, they are, but the problem goes to both sides of the aisle and has been expanding for years.

Posted by: nickless© at November 27, 2010 11:12 AM (MMC8r)

Uh, what?

They've been tailoring copyright law to suit copyright holders for a long time.

39 This actually is covered within ICE's Cyber Crimes Center (C3) mission. One of C3's main responsibilities is combatting internet-related crimes, and one of those crimes is "intellectual property rights violations (including music and software)." You can find more info about C3 here.

Yeah, it seems like this should be under the DoJ's purview, but since our government is so convoluted and complicated, is it any real surprise that our border security folks also have responsibility for copyright infringement cases?

40 Gee a Court Order would have been nice, but I guess liberals only want to afford that right to foreign terrosists

41 Question, if they sieze a domain name can you still not just type the I.P. address?

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. First and foremost, you couldn't rely on the Domain Name System for looking up the IP address corresponding to a given domain name. The secondary problems depend on a lot of factors, e.g., how the web server is configured, links from other sites would have to be rewritten, possibly even links within the pages served at a site would have to be rewritten.

42 9 And yet we are seemingly helpless to stop Wikileaks....you think we would own the copyright to our own diplomatic cables...

Posted by: Horatius at November 27, 2010 10:53 AM (dNSVq)

We ARE wikileaks...get it now?

43 They've been tailoring copyright law to suit copyright holders for a long time.

Posted by: nickless© at November 27, 2010 11:23 AM (MMC8r)

And?  I don't understand your "both sides of the aisle" thing.

Passing copyright law is one thing.

Making a criminal case of it is another.

Seizing property without an apparent warrant is quite another.

44
...assuming DHS doesn't start shutting down TV stations for being "hate" sites.

There was an incredible democratic revolution in Venezuela...

45 I think IP law is way lop-sided now, so on first seeing this, I thought "bastards!"

However, it occurs to me that this could be a "get Al Capone on his his income taxes" thing.

That is, if you had sites that were doing bad stuff as far as DHS's actual mission but you couldn't shut them down because of all the free speech issues, you would go after them anyway you could. In terms of Wikileaks, isn't it a nice coincidence he's in trouble for rape and molestation?

A hacked site is usually used for kinds of criminal activity. If copyright law is currently the easiest to get something shut down with--and I don't doubt that's the case--we perhaps ought to give DHS a little benefit of the doubt.

46 47 9 And yet we are seemingly helpless to stop Wikileaks....you think we would own the copyright to our own diplomatic cables...

Posted by: Horatius at November 27, 2010 10:53 AM (dNSVq)

Speaking of which... was there not supposed to be another set of Docs released this week?

I know the Brit Gov "warned" their media about it, and how Brit law handles the release of classified material...

Did it get lost by our media in the T-Day news cycle?

47 A hacked site is usually used for kinds of criminal activity. If copyright law is currently the easiest to get something shut down with--and I don't doubt that's the case--we perhaps ought to give DHS a little benefit of the doubt. Posted by: Nicholas Kronos at November 27, 2010 11:28 AM (KktlX) OK and as soon as they shut down even one muslim hate site because of that, get back to me

48 And with ICE now confiscating sites, I believe it's fair to say that they view copyright issues more serious than lets say oh, 1 out of 10 being illegal in Arizona with a spilling over drug mess. 

49 Speaking of the Wikileaks site and the new State Department memos dump: How the fuck did they get these? I know the Military leaks came from a gay soldier with a serious pole up his ass about DADT, but where did these come from?

50 Philip Zimbardo appears to partake heavily of that special brand of intellectual idiocy one can only find in the modern university.

51

Now, hold on there.  That sounds reasonable, but the fact is that music affects the personality, behavior and thought patterns of the listener, thereby making it a "drug" and thereby bringing its regulation (and the regulation of everything used to create, store, transfer, or play music) very clearly within our purview.  If you like what we're doing with taking over the front cover of cigarette boxes and forcing them to run our idiotic PSAs you're really gonna love what we get into with the dangerously addictive drug of music (and everything associated with music).

Posted by: Your FDA Overlords at November 27, 2010 11:29 AM (G/MYk)

But when you listen to music, Alcohol consumption tends to increase... and heck, they even call Full Automatic Weapon use "Rock and Roll"

Thus is clearly falls under our Jurisdiction

52 Is this real? Just what in the hell does bootleg this-or-that have to do with home land security? The astonishing amount of violence in Juarez and other places along our border doesn't concern Chairman Oh one wit, but someone snagging music and pron is a national security issue. I see. My guess is that if people don't complain loudly now, snagging free speech on conservative websites will soon become a DHS concern. Or do I have a right to that any more? These days it's hard to tell.

53 OT:

Uh oh!

Are the Broncos cheaty cheaters?

54 This just ruined my day.

55 We should definitely pass net neutrality laws and put the FCC in charge of the Internet. They'd never do anything like this.

56 And?  I don't understand your "both sides of the aisle" thing.

My point is just that we've seen a steady expansion of power to copyright holders by both Democrats and Republicans for decades now.  Yes, DHS becoming involved is new and bizarre, but the notion of the government being an enforcement arm of Corporation X's copyright has been going on for a long long time, and been expanded by both parties.

57 OK and as soon as they shut down even one muslim hate site because of that, get back to me

Yeah, witness The Jawa Report's ongoing crusade against Google's YouTube for its non-enforcement of their terms of use policies when it comes to jihad recruitment videos.

58 The U.S. Border Patrol has made us all safer again. The evil Willie Nelson has been busted for weed again while driving through Texas on his bus.

59 Does this mean that it’s fraud when they put those “FBI warnings” on DVDs and CDs, and then ICE shows up to enforce the law.

60 You see, dictatorships start with tyrannical football coaches like Belicheat and his minions, and now McDaniels is at it.

61 Maybe this will work out OK. Mostly young people download torrents, mostly women buy the replica handbags, and these groups tend to vote for the Donkeys, so fuck 'em. Let them enjoy the boot of socialism stomping on their heads for a while. Perhaps, in time, they can appreciate that infringing the rights and freedoms of one group effects everyone -- instead of standing around going 'it's not my end of the ship that's sinking; why should I care?'

62

Most of us will never resort to typing IP addresses into a browser, mostly because we don't know which numbers to use. If you happen to use windows, try something like:

nslookup ace.mu.nu >c:\ace.txt

Substitute the URL for what you want a record of, and change the last part to a name and location that makes sense for you.

63

That is, if you had sites that were doing bad stuff as far as DHS's actual mission but you couldn't shut them down because of all the free speech issues, you would go after them anyway you could. In terms of Wikileaks, isn't it a nice coincidence he's in trouble for rape and molestation?

A hacked site is usually used for kinds of criminal activity. If copyright law is currently the easiest to get something shut down with--and I don't doubt that's the case--we perhaps ought to give DHS a little benefit of the doubt.

Hi, Nick.  They need to say so immediately.  Because giving them the benefit of the doubt like that it awfully generous.  Makes me feel like I'm bs-ing myself.

64 Your ever vigilant government at work. Homeland Security seizes domains of sites for copyright infringements, ie downloading music. Nice to know that DHS is protecting Hollywood from the catastrophic threats from college dorms downloading Katy Perry and 50 cent songs

65 The question is, in the future when we all have fabrication machines in our garages, who will stop people from illegally downloading Paula Deen tableware designs?

66 If Anonymizer was a publicly held company, I'd buy stock in it right now

67 Does that TED video get any better than sounding like it was coming from a defense attorney for one of the Abu Ghraib perpetrators?

68
You guys know what 'scissoring' is, right?

It's one of the ways homosexual women do pretend-sex with each other.

In California, of course, on a campus, of course, some homosexual women were upset with Cal State's drama dept for making them drop the word "tribade" from the title of one of their stupid tired sex plays.

So, naturally, a couple of dozen of these bright young ladies decided to protest the fascism by laying down on the campus grounds and demonstrating scissoring to teach people what "tribading" is.

*the slide of civilization just called me and said, "wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

69 This is how fascism works. Favored groups within the "private" sector have full government support to crush competition.

70 OK just out of curiosity I called up ZALES. They are running this add on TV about a Soldier buying his wife a ring or something from overseas. So I called them to ask them if the offer a Military Discount, because if they didn't I figured that would suck. But hey they do 10%. OK good for them.

71 Mark, yes.

72 75 This is how fascism works. Favored groups within the "private" sector have full government support to crush competition.

Posted by: real joe at November 27, 2010 11:48 AM (w7Lv+)

--Worst of all, the leftards use these instances as straw men to beat up on "capitalism," even thought it is the opposite of a free market.

73 The question is, in the future when we all have fabrication machines in our garages, who will stop people from illegally downloading Paula Deen tableware designs?
----------

Kraft Foods LLC vs United Federation of Planets

74 76 OK just out of curiosity I called up ZALES. They are running this add on TV about a Soldier buying his wife a ring or something from overseas. So I called them to ask them if the offer a Military Discount, because if they didn't I figured that would suck. But hey they do 10%. OK good for them.

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 27, 2010 11:49 AM (0GFWk)

--Oh yes.  They would go out of business in Norfolk without the military discount.

75 Uh oh!
Are the Broncos cheaty cheaters?

No one needs to cheat to beat the 49'ers.

76
and here's a good bumper sticker I saw today:

EARTH FIRST
_{^{We'll Stripmine the Other Planets Later}}

77 People believe what they want to believe. Unfortunately, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they want to believe government isn't their enemy.

78
No one needs to cheat to beat the 49'ers.

Posted by: real joe at November 27, 2010 11:51 AM (w7Lv+)

--Uh, the Broncos lost that game.

79

80 Evil always starts with liberal policies.

81 (Megaphone: Will the audience convene at one fifteen
outside Brixton Town Hall where we will be...)

Waiting to cut out the deadwood
Waiting to clean up the city
Waiting to follow the worms
Waiting to put on a black shirt

Waiting to weed out the weaklings
Waiting to smash in their windows and kick in their doors
Waiting for the final solution to strengthen the strain
Waiting to follow the worms

------------------

Yet more seizures of private property without due process.  Looks like The Worms may have finally arrived here in the U.S.

82 DHS will be coming around to finger your daughter later today.  Please have her garments loosened or off.  Thank you.

83 My point is just that we've seen a steady expansion of power to copyright holders by both Democrats and Republicans for decades now.  Yes, DHS becoming involved is new and bizarre, but the notion of the government being an enforcement arm of Corporation X's copyright has been going on for a long long time, and been expanded by both parties.
Posted by: nickless© at November 27, 2010 11:36 AM

In some cases, nickless©, in some cases.

Yes, large corporations and Big Names enjoy government/judicial enforcement of copyright laws. If you're a rock star, or a conglomerate that produces and distributes movies or music, the gubmint is right there to make sure you don't lose a dime to eeeevil downloaders.

For many writers, photographers and artists, there is no protection. Countless websites -- including some major names in the Interwebz world -- can steal their work with impunity, paying no fees and receiving no punishment. It happens every day.

Of course enforcing copyright laws on behalf of those people would deprive the public of the Constitutional Right to Free Stuff, and we can't have that. People actually being paid for their work? Hell, that's welfare, isn't it?

Bono, Zombie Michael Jackson and Universal Studios can sleep easy, though. They're not missing a dime.

84

Big game on now!

WOLVERINES!!!

85 This scientist/professor is an absolute douche. His argument about Abu Ghraib is that the soldiers committed "evil" because they had power. Seconds later he claims they were doing "evil" because the CIA wanted them to break their will to get info. Well it's one or the other it can't be both. Either they went rogue and got their jollies or they were under orders to do all this. The Stanford Prison experiment was bullshit. You gather dipshit college students with an advert about prison abuse and tell them to mistreat the prisoners bad stuff will happen.

86 Evil starts with me.  Muahahahahahahahahaha!

87 I'm waiting for the press release to let us know how all of these sites aided and abetted terrorists. 

Oops, I meant militants of unclear religious temperament, and teabaggers.

88 I always started at about 4,000 rpm, but that's just me.

89

Posted by: Pink Floyd Peering Into The Future By Looking Back At the Past at November 27, 2010 11:58 AM (agSql)

< Mother, do you think they'll like the song?

90 Lacey, aren't you from Ohio?  Just askin' since I'm a Michigan fan.

91

Big game on now!

;">WOLVERINES!!!

Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 27, 2010 12:02 PM (hNw8z)

--Just think, if it weren't for President Bowtie's blind defense of the BCS, Ohio State could be thinking playoffs (hosting a game, even) and this game would have huge importance.

92 Actually, Stanley Milgram is the one who had the definitive study on authoritarianism- almost ten years before Zimbardo.

Plus, Milgram has passed away, so indeed, we do not have to see videos of him looking like a badly dressed libtard hippie who talks too fast.

93 This is how fascism works. Favored groups within the "private" sector have full government support to crush competition.

Posted by: real joe at November 27, 2010 11:48 AM (w7Lv+)

--Worst of all, the leftards use these instances as straw men to beat up on "capitalism," even thought it is the opposite of a free market.

Posted by: logprof at November 27, 2010 11:50 AM (BP6Z1)

Europe, being on the cutting edge of all things awesome, banned vitamins for commercial sale and now only the mega-corporations all the lefties profess hatred for are able to sell them as marked-up prescription meds.

94 Big game on now! WOLVERINES!!! Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 27, 2010 12:02 PM (hNw8z) And Matt Millen is doing the game. I always thought he was a loser and hated seeing him on a broadcast, but then I saw his son is a LT. in the Army and in Iraq or Afganistan, so from now on I am giving him a pass.

95 On the bright side this can only hurt The One with the younger voters.  They pretend to care whether some terrorist gets water poured on his face but they actually DO care whether they can get as much stolen music as their iPods can  hold.    Hard to believe he is really going to run a platform of anal searches, child molestation and taking candy (music) away from babies (slackers).

I am amazed that these sites haven't been shut down before.  It should all be done under normal due process or laws crafted for the purpose and the job shouldn't be left  to the DHS.  But if a pawn shop was acting as a fence it wouldn't take years for the authorities to shut them down.  That is essentially what these sites are. 

96 If we only had some place to concentrate these troublemakers for awhile ... not for long, you see, but just until this all blows over.  Like band camps or something ... only for troublemakers, like downloaders ... and con men and Teabaggers and ....

97 And Matt Millen is doing the game. I always thought he was a loser and hated seeing him on a broadcast, but then I saw his son is a LT. in the Army and in Iraq or Afganistan, so from now on I am giving him a pass.

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 27, 2010 12:05 PM (0GFWk)

--I heard about that as well, the week of Veteran's Day.

In any event, it's kinda silly to call him a loser: Everywhere he played, his team won a Super Bowl.  It's just that success as a player does not always mean success on the sidelines or in the office.

98

aren't you from Ohio? 

well I live here; not raised. I think that's the difference. these fans are dipshits to the nth degree. my Grandma lived in Toledo which is only about 45 mins to Ann Arbor. so we'd go the game when they were there. Gramma rooted for U of M, Mom rooted for THE OSU to spite her Mother, and I'd root for U of M to spite mine.

we're full of love in this family!

99 Go Big Blue! 

100

Jedi, you have absolutely no grasp of what Zombardo said in that video.  First, he said in a given situation, even many good people can do evil.  Second, he said *the claims were* that the CIA wanted them to soften-up the detainees.  That wasn't *his* claim.  The Stanford Prison Experiment was not bullshit.  It shows us we have to avoid creating situations where people's bad traits emerge.

I don't care to follow you around with a pooper scooper.  Watch it again and try to think this time. 

101 I just want the Wolverines not to suck out loud.  That's all.  I have modest dreams.

102

well I live here; not raised. I think that's the difference. these fans are dipshits to the nth degree. my Grandma lived in Toledo which is only about 45 mins to Ann Arbor. so we'd go the game when they were there. Gramma rooted for U of M, Mom rooted for THE OSU to spite her Mother, and I'd root for U of M to spite mine.

 

Well played, ma'am!  I'd love to see the Wolverines win, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

103 Did I mention War Damn Eagle, you buncha haters?  Now, go back and gobble up some more MSM reportage, chumps.

104

108 I just want the Wolverines not to suck out loud.  That's all.  I have modest dreams.

 

I just want Robinson to stay healthy and play the whole game - just to give OSU fits.

105 110 Did I mention War Damn Eagle, you buncha haters?  Now, go back and gobble up some more MSM reportage, chumps.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 27, 2010 12:10 PM (McG46)

--Watch out: you may be gobbling 'Cock next week.

106 110 Did I mention War Damn Eagle, you buncha haters?  Now, go back and gobble up some more MSM reportage, chumps.
  Roll Tide?  Well, they rolld over in the second half . . .

107 In any event, it's kinda silly to call him a loser: Everywhere he played, his team won a Super Bowl. It's just that success as a player does not always mean success on the sidelines or in the office. Posted by: logprof at November 27, 2010 12:07 PM (BP6Z1) I meant in the front office. He was a pretty good player.

108

but I don't think it's gonna happen.

Oh I have no doubt you're right. I have a bit of hope though.

109

Now, go back and gobble up some more MSM reportage, chumps.

AND GOOD AFTERNOON, SUNSHINE!

110 The Buckeye president's statement was not only inappropriate, undignified, and obnoxious, it was not even accurate.  Ohio State played that Conference USA powerhouse, Marshall (W4-L7), this season. 

I have some loyalty to the Big Ten and had even decided earlier in the season to root for OSU just to shut up the friggin' SEC fans, but I should've realized that the classless Buckeyes would play true to form. 

Go Wolverines! 

111 Have we had a post or discussion yet of John Kyl dropping a $200M earmark on the American taxpayer this week?

112 56 Philip Zimbardo appears to partake heavily of that special brand of intellectual idiocy one can only find in the modern university.

Posted by: Sam at November 27, 2010 11:32 AM (Cxsey)

Sam you're wrong. Abuse of authority is happening at the college I work at. The Board and DA don't care. The tax payer is getting raped ....along with the college insurance company.

I've learned that the business of government is NOT to serve its citizens...but is instead it's the citizen duty to serve the government. In my neck of the government woods it is clear that education is merely the vehicle through which the individuals at the top dominate the system to feather their own nests. Education delivered is a byproduct of that effort. Government dictates that that effort be made. Colleges are hugely parasitical...government should get out of the business of running them.

113 Wow, the Celtic Women version of "Panis Angelicus" is really pretty.

114 Angel Penis?

115

118 Nope. Sidebar item I believe.

 

116 This latest Barky O'Bolshevik/Janet Incompetano outrage could really toss a wrench into the gears of my method of getting even with the liberal Hollywood types.  Yes, I am a devoted torrent downloader, and no, I feel no regret about stealing their content.

(Yes, I have quite a talent for rationalization plus a fairly severe passive-aggressive personality disorder.)

117 124 What's with all the football talk in here?  Jeez, get a room.

Posted by: CDR M at November 27, 2010 12:17 PM (5I8G0)

--Jeez, put up a thread!

118 AUGUSTA, Ga. -- A U.S. Marine reservist collecting toys for children was stabbed when he helped stop a suspected shoplifter in eastern Georgia. Best Buy sales manager Orvin Smith told The Augusta Chronicle that man was seen on surveillance cameras Friday putting a laptop under his jacket at the Augusta store. When confronted, the man became irate, knocked down an employee, pulled a knife and ran toward the door. Outside were four Marines collecting toys for the service branch's "Toys For Tots" program. Smith said the Marines stopped the man, but he stabbed one of them in the back. The cut did not appear to be severe. The suspect, whose name was not released, was held until police arrived. The Richmond County Sheriff's office said it's investigating the case.

119 124 What's with all the football talk in here?  Jeez, get a room thread. 

fify

120 Posted by: nevergiveup at November 27, 2010 12:18 PM (0GFWk)

--How in the world did he snag a laptop?  Usually those things are chained down hard or locked up.

121 The point I wanted to make about the earmarks:  This is not a fight we want to be a part of, no matter how it could benefit us, and I understand the arguments on both sides.  It's just a waste of breath.  And Kyl proved my point. 

122 --How in the world did he snag a laptop? Usually those things are chained down hard or locked up. Posted by: logprof at November 27, 2010 12:19 PM (BP6Z1) Bolt cutters? I hope they gave the Marine a reward

123 118

Jeff Flake had no problem with it, he said it was to avoid a court settlement instead, If Flake is okay with it, Im fine.

124 speaking of Pink Floyd, seeing ROger Waters do The Wall in its entirety tonight!

and yeah this is Obama trying to gin up donations from Hollywood studio mucketymucks

125

Cyber-: http://tinyurl.com/n2ho82 Obama: Cyber Security is a National Security Priority

I have this listed as one of Obamas 57 States of Confussion.

126 rdbrewer Zimtardo states that these people committed these acts because of power. That power breeds evil. He also says these people were being interrogated by the CIA for information. He then says that these soldiers were told by the CIA to push the boundaries to break the prisoners' will. Zimtardo says all that. And those statements are mutually exclusive. They either committed evil because they were the authority or they committed it because an authority told them to. Perhaps you should pay more attention. Pathetic. And more importantly, the Standford Prison Experiment was complete and utter bullshit. First he relied on college students. How are college students are good representative example of society? A small handful of leftist fuckwits majoring in bong hits are an analog for society? Then there bigger are issues with selection bias. A study done years later used the same advertisement to recruit students as Zimtardo did. Except in one advertisement he left out the phrase "prison life" and the other eh left it in. The article that left those words in attracted larger numbers of people with tendencies for abusive behavior. Then you have the study itself which goes beyond unscientific into the absurd. Zimtardo, as the Superintendent of the prison, ordered guards to blindfold prisons remove underwear and other dehumanzing acts. What poweer did the guards supposedly have in this study? And even mroe important why is the man conducting the experiment and is biased by his theory actively participating in the experiment? That's just fucked up. Then we look at the results. Most of the guards didn't commit abuses or only committed minor ones. In fact most were kind to the prisoners. There was one lone fucktard who committed most of the abuse. He was nicknamed John Wayne and said he was pretending to be the prison guard from Coll Hand Luke. One sociopath doesn't prove shit. But the biggest complaint is that this experiment hasn't been reproduced. Other studies using similar methods did not reach the same findings as Zimtardo. In fact one British study concluded that Zimtardo actively participating in the experiment and showing the guards to abuse prisoners was the major contributing factor to all abuse. Face it, Zimtardo's work was shoddy at best. Zimtardo is a scumbag hippie who has the usual leftist talking points about power and rigged a sham experiment to prove it. Hey, it isn't his opinion that power corrupts it's SCIENCE. Next time pull your head out of your ass rdbrewer and be less quick with insults.

127 OT but beats talking about college football: Our pansy-in-chief and his power forward wife pray at dinner, ending the prayer with "we always say, 'we hope we live long and strong." This clown has the intellectual depth of a water bug. If I were that empty I'd take a vow of silence to avoid the embarrassment of being found out. And Palin was stupid? Gosh how I hate the MFM more and more each day.

128

Fascinating video, but the end seems to get self-contradictory.  He mentions 7 steps to the social processes that grease the slippery slope of evil, which were all good.

But then a little later around the 18:25 mark he talks about getting away from the medical model that focuses on the individual and moving to a public health model that recognizes situational and systemic "vectors of disease" where he then mentions that bullying, prejudice and violence are "diseases" (something I don't really agree with).  "Since the "inquisition. we've been dealing with the individual and you know what?  It doesn't work."  Then in a little bit, he goes on to talk about heroism as the antidote to evil. "By promoting the heroic imagination, especially in our kids and our educational system."

Then he talks about the "evil of inaction".  They follow momma's advice "don't get involved and mind your own business!"  "But momma, humanity is my business!"

A little later he's talking about taking heroic action and says generically "It might only be once in a life and I could have been a hero, but I let it pass me by."  And this was right after he talked about making your motivation for being a hero socio-centric instead of ego centric.

I know what the guy was trying to get across (I think), but this is the kind of shit liberals just eat up and twist to their own ends.  It starts by redefining words like "hero", and then followed up with moral relativism.  His message is good, but this sort of social psychology always gets hijacked and I'm not quite sure he isn't on board with government solutions to the problems he mentions.

Honestly I think he could have stopped right around 18:15 because the ending was just a bit too convoluted and ripe for abuse...ironically enough.

 

129 Abu Ghraib is irrelevant to this discussion. Our perps abused bad guys in a foreign country.
DHS may have found the torrents were used to send information to bad guys around the planet. You're howling because a side effect of that is you can't steal copyrighted material anymore.
But you're right: you could sum it all up by saying the Tenth Amendment has been ignored since Pres. Washington sent Federal troops to Pennsylvania to collect taxes on farm-made whiskey.

130

Zimtardo states that these people committed these acts because of power. That power breeds evil.

He wasn't that general, stupid.

131 133 speaking of Pink Floyd, seeing ROger Waters do The Wall in its entirety tonight!

Posted by: ginaswo at November 27, 2010 12:24 PM

It is a fabulous show. You will probably not see a better one, even though it is kind of disturbing. Don't miss the crash at the end of In the Flesh, it will happen on the right side of the Wall.

Hope you're seated back a bit. You'll get a better show if you're farther away.

132
(Yes, I have quite a talent for rationalization plus a fairly severe passive-aggressive personality disorder.)

Posted by: Wodeshed at November 27, 2010 12:17 PM (T+mFk)

If you're going to do that, at least use a VPN as protection. Smaller studios and pron producers are extorting suing thousands of IP addresses. It's only a matter of time before the scumbag lawyers convince a big studio to go that route.

133 hey CDR M, this would be a funny joke. you and the other scabs substitute bloggers should keep posting stuff like they havent came back yet........  oh wait, they havent......  Dave kinda has.......

134 shiboooooooms!!  How ya doin' kid.  Just dropped in to say hi.  Hope you're doing great and had a wonderful t-day.

Your FDA Overloards and ATF..  thanks for the laughs, need that

135

I have a suggestion - more insults and colder beer.

Sincerely,

Suggestion O'Box

SOB

136 Our pansy-in-chief and his power forward wife pray at dinner, ending the prayer with "we always say, 'we hope we live long and strong."

But of course ... they pray for something for themselves rather than for others, or, G*d forbid, in appreciation for what they've been given by a power greater than themselves.

137 rdbrewer, you are a tumbling, tumbling dickweed for buying into this bullshit.

First, he said in a given situation, even many good people can do evil.  Second, he said *the claims were* that the CIA wanted them to soften-up the detainees.  That wasn't *his* claim.  The Stanford Prison Experiment was not bullshit.  It shows us we have to avoid creating situations where people's bad traits emerge.

I don't care to follow you around with a pooper scooper.  Watch it again and try to think this time.

Why don't you try to think.  We have to avoid creating situations where people's bad traits emerge?  Fuckstick, life is a situation where peoples bad traits can emerge.  

Go troll the Daily Kos with this crap.

138

Thus is clearly falls under our Jurisdiction

Clearly we need more money to teach kids not to do this.

139 Looks like the rule of law is the two-bit Muslim tin-horns target.

140 that video, what a bunch of bull. And the final conclusion? Do the right thing, be a hero when situation requires? Thank you. Conservatives have been saying that for decades now. Conservatives have been advocating for a culture promoting that for decades. It is the liberal bullshit culture that has destroyed it.

141 That Zimtardo video is the product of a stupid and guilty man. He's no scientist. The message that evil is connected to power and weakness is not new. The Bush hit at the end revealed the true purpose of his talk.

142 Sam, I think the Standford Prison Experiment explains some of the ugly TSA behavior we've seen pretty well.  Don't you?

143

AND GOOD AFTERNOON, SUNSHINE!

Posted by: laceyunderalls at November 27, 2010 12:14 PM (hNw8z)

Hi hon.  I'm just amazed that a group that I normally agree with, who normally discounts MSM reportage, is suddenly spewing it like it's their boyfriend's load.  No, I'm not talking about you.

144 The Stanford Prison experiment was bullshit. You gather dipshit college students with an advert about prison abuse and tell them to mistreat the prisoners bad stuff will happen.

Ah, the social scientific method:
1. Form a hypothesis.
2. Collect data.
3. Filter out data which is unlikely to support the hypothesis.
(If the data is not statistically significant, this is not a problem.)
4. If the remaining data still does not support the hypothesis, then reject the data.
5. Go to 2.

145 I watched 5 or 10 minutes of the Zimbardo video, and could no longer stand the cocksucker.  Anybody who is outraged by Abu Ghraib, as if it is torture, has no idea whatsoever of "evil".  When he examines Cuban prisons, I might listen to the shit-for-brains.

146 152, It doesn't explain it, it may only be repeating it.

147 155 I watched 5 or 10 minutes of the Zimbardo video, and could no longer stand the cocksucker.  Anybody who is outraged by Abu Ghraib, as if it is torture, has no idea whatsoever of "evil".  When he examines Cuban prisons, I might listen to the shit-for-brains.

Posted by: Randall Hoven at November 27, 2010 12:54 PM (CBpBx)

Shit-for-brains isn't allowed IN Cuban prisons, unless he's a prisoner. That's the difference between us and the dictators...at some level we yell STOP! Give this gubberment of ours more power and they won't stop.

148 Oh, and am I the only one who doesn't take him seriously because of his t-shirt?

Not so much because of the t-shirt (though that doesn't help) but because of the beer belly threatening to peek out.

149 Thorvald...DHS is operating extralegally. They are operating Administratively.

150 Someone has a new book to sell, I see.

151 No due process = no good.  Very dangerous precedent.  Some asshole could post a link(s) to a torrent on a forum they don't like and get the site taken down.

152 Ah, the social scientific method:
1. Form a hypothesis.
2. Collect data.
3. Filter out data which is unlikely to support the hypothesis.
(If the data is not statistically significant, this is not a problem.)
4. If the remaining data still does not support the hypothesis, then reject cook the data.
5. Go to 2.

Posted by: AmishDude at November 27, 2010 12:54 PM (BvBKY)

And there we have a refinement of the social scientific method most recently known as the AGW method.

153 I don't want to look like I'm joining the "gang up on rdbrewer" bunch here 'cause I'm not, but the Stanford Prison experiment was poor science and Zimbado himself seems to be a very poor scientist.

The first thing a scientist has to question is their own ideas, and I'm not seeing any evidence that he has done so. Pretty much everything I've heard or read from him indicates he's only interested in validating his hypothesis, and ignores anything that may invalidate it.

Also, he's 100% inured to the Western leftist idea that evil is a Western institution. I doubt it's conscious, and if you asked him for non-Western examples he could provide them, but I'd put good money on that statement being followed by a "but (something the West did)" statement.

There are enough flaws in his reasoning in the first half of the video not to watch the second (especially with the IRRITATING sound effects and "music").

154 I watched 5 or 10 minutes of the Zimbardo video, and could no longer stand the cocksucker.  Anybody who is outraged by Abu Ghraib, as if it is torture, has no idea whatsoever of "evil".  When he examines Cuban prisons, I might listen to the shit-for-brains.

Posted by: Randall Hoven at November 27, 2010 12:54 PM (CBpBx)

Shit-for-brains isn't allowed IN Cuban prisons, unless he's a prisoner. That's the difference between us and the dictators...at some level we yell STOP! Give this gubberment of ours more power and they won't stop.

Posted by: torabora at November 27, 2010 01:00 PM

Pipe down, you emo fucktards.  You're missing the point in your knee-jerk orgasm of righteous indignation.

155 PS I did study psychology but decided not to pursue that path after my first year in college, so I'm no expert but I've read in the field.

Yes, the study in question was part of the text, and I was not impressed with it at the time, either. Unfortunately ALL of my professors were rabid behavioralists and this was one of their guiding lights.

156 The first thing a scientist has to question is their own ideas, and I'm not seeing any evidence that he has done so. Pretty much everything I've heard or read from him indicates he's only interested in validating his hypothesis, and ignores anything that may invalidate it.  Posted by: Merovign

All that and more. I've read about the Stamford experiment and have yet to read how they eliminated the Hawthorne Effect.

157 75 This is how fascism works. Favored groups within the "private" sector have full government support to crush competition. *************************
Copyright and patent protection for "Authors and Inventors" is in the Constitution, so it's hard to argue that government enforcement of copyright  is fascistic.   After all, copyright holders have to assert their exclusive rights in court to prevent others from making, using, selling or distributing their works; the government just doesn't do so automatically.   As for "crushing competition",  that doesn't apply here.  If I have no legal right to use/copy/download/distribute copyright or patented materials, but do so anyway, I'm not "competing" with the copyright holders, I'm violating their exclusive rights to their works.     If Apple, for example, quietly uses cellphone technology patented by Motorola in Apple's iPhones, for example, it can't argue that Motorola's assertion of patent infringement is "anti-competitive".   I'm reminded of the witless slogan hiptards used back in the 60's to argue their right to attend concerts for free:  "The music belongs to the people!!"   No, it doesn't.  Not at the concert, not on-line, unless the artists formally waive their rights.   (I'm still wondering what all this has to do with DHS, though.  )        

158 Lowandslow, some people think that vid was about the US military.  It wasn't.  And I knew some would switch off their minds as soon as they heard the words "Abu Graib."  But the "evil starts at 15 volts" message was more important.

159

"Pipe down, you emo fucktards.  You're missing the point in your knee-jerk orgasm of righteous indignation.

Posted by: rdbrewer at November 27, 2010 01:15 PM (5Xt9R)"

So pointing out the gaping holes in this guy's presentation is now righteous indignation. 

Simplified yourself down to irrelevance in your own thread.  Nice job.

160

Also, he's 100% inured to the Western leftist idea that evil is a Western institution.

How so, mero?

This video had nothing to do with the west or the American military.  It was a comment about neither.

161
By the way, Schutz Staffel  translates to "protection squadron." 


Never entrust power to anyone not willing to surrender it. 

162

Posted by: effinayright at November 27, 2010 01:22 PM (UIqfz)

Sorry, but changes in Federal Law make the knowing infringment on Copyright a Felony... which means Federal Prosecutors can now go after you even if there is no Compalint from the holder of the origional Copyright.

Which can then lead to Conspiracy charges, if you aid those who are doing so...

And because the US Courts have decided that they have worldwide Jurisdiction??? Even being in another country does not stop the now LONNNGGGGG Arm of Federal Prosecution.

163

Politically all us morons are repelled by big gubberment...so why is anyone defensive about DHS lording it over copyright law? There is a legal remedy for that already. DHS's job is to protect us from TERRORISTS. It isn't to search nuns, people in wheelchairs, little kids, business people and to probe websites for copyright violators. What's next, DHS raids on the stupid Kahleeforneeha pot dispensaries? Roadside checkpoints, where you get pulled out of your car and groped? What's the matter? Don't you want to catch the terrorists? You're either with us or you're with the terrorists!

Do you really think they will go after illegal aliens? In Southern Cal, that's literally like shooting fish in a barrel. The 1100 national guardsmen that were sent to the border a couple months before the midterms are being pulled off the border in February BTW.

See, DHS is about controling us. It is not about protecting us.

This is gubberment gone amok..don't look to DC to abate this. Both parties did this to us.

164 Since I directed Rdbrewer to that link, I think I need to stick up for the POINT of that video, and to the merit of Zimbardo's observations. The most interesting thing to me about Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment is his own gradual inurement to what was happening before his eyes. It was only upon review of tapes of his experiment, sometimes after the fact, that he saw ( ans you will see too if you look at the footage) that he saw how his very body language had been altered, assuming the hands clasped behind the back posture of a general reviewing troops, or a world leader observing some display of his subjects. He viewed himself as the authority, a detached reviewer of the progress of the experiment, reviewer of something that must proceed in order to fulfill his mission. That frog boiled in evil effect happens and it explains, to some degree, not just the insitutional excesses and failures of TSA, but reminds of what the men who founded this nation understood about human nature. POWER CORRUPTS. And it is a "sneaky" corruption. Consider what TSO's tell themselves (and tell others) about the degradations they have inflicted on others while "following orders". their justifications. And do you think they develop some contempt for the people who must assume a submissive posture before them, to be probed and manhandled at their whim? The objections some voice when they are filmed, as if being observed changes the way they percieve themselves what they are doing, and it interferes to kjnow that they themselves are accountable? Consider how Pistole has put in place a deliberate policy of humiliation of persons, making a spectacle of persons, who opt out of scanning. He was told to make those scanners happen and he is willing to commit evil to achieve it. That kind of power It must be checked by active resistance, and the preservation of liberty requires vigilance and refusal to be passive when ordered liberty is at risk of devolving into a "servility pledge" of its citizens. Consider the bleats for "rule following", not making a fuss, not "whining" about strip searches achieved with ionizing radiation, the risks of which have been excessively downplayed. Consider those who believe you should cooperate with gropes of breasts and genitals, explain your menstruation hygeine or you surgical scars... because you have purchased a ticket to travel. I know that TSO's do exhibit some off what ZImbardo warns against. It isn't imaginary. They aren't excused, but they have conditioned themselves to believe they are serving their fellow man by being rought, rude, recalcitrant, THEY ARE GOD. THEY HAVE POWER. One needn't accept every premise of Zimbardo to see the truth of human nature revealed in his work, and elements of the Stanford prison experiment at work at your local airport.

165 Ya know what works at 15 volts? RS-232. Just saying.

166 92 The Stanford Prison experiment was bullshit.

Indeed. I've always hated Zimbardo only marginally less that I've always hated Milgram. The victims/subjects in both experiments were set up to fail because, especially in Milgram, all the interpersonal cues coming at them from the perpetrators/researchers were screaming "FAKE FAKE FAKE."

167 I worried also that persons would switch off after mention of Abu Graihb. All I ask is that you consider how useful it is to capture the attention of persons resisting admitting the possibility that TSA has systemic problems rather than a "few bad apples". That the nature of the job itself encourages them to treat ordinary non-suspect persons as criminals - and subject to the various abuses reported.

168

"I know that TSO's do exhibit some off what ZImbardo warns against. It isn't imaginary. They aren't excused, but they have conditioned themselves to believe they are serving their fellow man by being rought, rude, recalcitrant, THEY ARE GOD. THEY HAVE POWER.

One needn't accept every premise of Zimbardo to see the truth of human nature revealed in his work, and elements of the Stanford prison experiment at work at your local airport."

Posted by: SarahW at November 27, 2010 01:40 PM (Z4T49)

Well that's the problem I have with Z's vid.  He seems to advocate government control or even indoctrination as a solution to the problem.  He's not really breaking any new ground with his theory about the corrupting influence of power.  So when he got to his proposal for solving the problem, I was pretty much turned off. 

I just don't think this post needed this particular video.

169 could some one repost that link to UGG BOOTS,

170 gail, I've see a revised version of Milgrams experiment. It seems to make a very big difference if the subject of the shocks is present in the room with the shocker....and whether they can see each others EYES. If the persons are detached from one another, for example, in different rooms, the person "taking orders" is much more likely to comply. Relating that again to TSA adventures, persons who are not directly affected by the indignities of new search procedures are FAR more likely to approve of them and allow others to be subjected to them. As long as its an abstraction, there is little desire to question the real utility, and the misfortunes of persons exposed to the procedures tolerable indeed.

171

I just don't think this post needed this particular video.

That's a fair criticism.  My point is highlighted in the headline, but a lot of it was lost because of the politically suggestive content.   

172

How so, mero?

This video had nothing to do with the west or the American military. It was a comment about neither.

Posted by: rdbrewer at November 27, 2010 01:35 PM (5Xt9R)

1) It explicitly, though not exclusively, was. You can't say that the video had nothing to do with its opening and prime example, especially if the man is selectively presenting and at least arguably misinterpreting the events.

2) Every example I've heard from Zimbado, not just this video or the SP case, has been focused on The West and its institutions. Okay, I think he brought up the Soviets once, but it was followed by a "but."

3) It is a point fairly made that power corrupts, but Zimbado seems almost offended by the aspect of individual choice (again, not just here). He's heavy-handedly biased toward the concept of external influences being the controlling factor in the expression of evil. I'm not saying he'd deny the component of choice, but he always heads the other way.

It is entirely fair to point out the (many) flaws of the messenger. That doesn't necessarily discredit the message, but it sure don't help.

Honestly, Frodo and Bilbo would probably have been better "messengers" than Zimbado on this point, fictional though they may be. But are they really more fictional?

I usually find myself agreeing with SarahW, but in this case our appraisals of the man and his work are rather different.

Sure, power corrupts. Or more accurately, some people choose corruption when they have power. There is a point where it's a warning and a point beyond which it becomes an excuse, and I think Zimbado passed that point a long, long time ago.

I'm not saying Zimbado doesn't want to *help*, I'm just saying he's not doing it right.

Gotta go have lunch with the Grandparents, sorry to duck out when it's getting detailed...

173 Oh, what is next for the DHS?  Shutting down blogs ostensibly because someone put up a copyrighted pic of a cheerleader? 

174 Burn the Witch - It's all too true that corruption that power brings is not a new concept. Yet for many it remains a schoolbook abstraction. It's here I see the value of Zimbardo's work. The power of footage from the Stanford prison experiment, the rapid devolvement of normal persons turned to sadistic near-monsters in the course of a few days ( and more eerily they recovered very nearly as rapidly and went "back to normal) that you can see happening before your own eyes. One marked as authority and another helpless subject, one "under instructions from authority and not responsible for personal actions" is chilling reminder of the REALITY of the quick slip into evil possible when persons are able to justify flexing their power, and are not checked.

175 92 Either they went rogue and got their jollies or they were under orders to do all this. ---------- Or... the CIA ordered them to go rogue.

176 Merovign, I take your points. Zimbardo does not necessarily come to the conclusions I would...although in another context I found his words about individual action, heroism, so different from the way they have been characterized here... He does emphasize a social quality to heroism...not only the capacity to step out of passive acceptance of wrong, but the ability to persuade others to see with open eyes and to react and resist. I'm not sure he's half wrong about that. The punished whistleblower, the ruined snitch - persons are seldom rewarded for individual heroism that breaks apart a group that has been accepting the evil. It's only when they are able to lead, to persuade, with tact and skill, and reason and appeal to interest... that the resistors grow in number, and may truly succeed without self-destruction.

177 Not bad points in the TED video, but I am so sick of hearing how "evil" Abu Ghraib was.  No one who talks about AG seems to know that this wasn't some random assortment of prisoners and guards, these were US forces in hostile territory surrounded by inhuman monsters.  Let's all moan and weep over prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib but let's not think about what the situation would have been like had the roles of guard and prisoners been reversed in that situation.  Our guys wouldn't have had underpants on their heads--they wouldn't have had heads.

178 The nail that sticks up get hammered down.

179 Anachronda - Here I think is Zimbardo's thoughts about that more accurately portrayed - persons unprepared to be guards, were made guards. They were not trained to check their behavior, and it was, he suspects, all to a purpose. The authority that might have overseen the prison - checked the abuses - had no desire to do it, as it was USEFUL for breaking down the prisoners. I don't know whether this is the case or not, but think it more accurately represents Zimbardo's view of the situation.

180

"One marked as authority and another helpless subject, one "under instructions from authority and not responsible for personal actions" is chilling reminder of the REALITY of the quick slip into evil possible when persons are able to justify flexing their power, and are not checked."

Posted by: SarahW at November 27, 2010 02:01 PM (Z4T49)

As others have pointed out, his use of Abu G is definintely wide open to legitimate criticism.  I don't really know much about the Stanford experiment other than this vid.  So I don't really focus on that part of his presentation.  Like I said, he's not telling us anything we don't already know about corruption, so we were left waiting for his solution, which seems to be:  

"Power currupts, so let's make sure we just keep an eye on the people we give the power to, and while we're at it, let's just give them a little more power to indoctrinate kids.  Oh yeah, by the way, a buddy of mine and I are giving some classes on this..." 

181 Nice going, Bammy Boy. There goes your youth vote in '12

182

You can't say that the video had nothing to do with its opening and prime example, especially if the man is selectively presenting and at least arguably misinterpreting the events.

The issue isn't defined by the example.  If I explain circumstantial evidence to you and give the example of footprints appearing in the snow, I'm not talking about people walking around in snow.  That's not my point.  Likewise, Lombardo was not saying Americans are evil or even that they have a tendency to be evil.  I don't see that at all.  I do see how some are going to understand and seize upon politically loaded words, however.  He could have used an example from anywhere. 

I don't think you or anyone else would have attempted to refute his point if he had used another example--the knee-jerk response to Abu Graib would not have happened--and that serves to highlight the emo-charged bias that is creeping into the criticism.  I don't care to deal with that level of reflexive emotionality.  Zombardo's point--and mine--is that we don't sit back and let evil slowly grow--that we recognize it and deal with it.

 He's heavy-handedly biased toward the concept of external influences being the controlling factor in the expression of evil.

I noticed that.  He seemed to discount individual responsibility almost completely.   I think that might have been an overstated response to the "few bad apple" people--whose response was also overstated.  

183 Zimbardo is right about one thing: lack of supervision allows evil to grow and spread. Too bad he doesn't see that each one of us has an internal observer/supervisor. When our O/S is missing, weak, or damaged we are more likely to do evil and fail to prevent evil. If he said he wanted to encourage individuals to help other individuals improve their individual O/S systems, and if he left his politics in the trunk of his mind, I'd see a lot more merit in his talk.

184 Evil starts at 15 volts?  Police tasers are what, at least 50000?

185 Eman - Zimbardo's basic premise is that it is far easier for normal people to override that O/S than is generally thought; and that it is an insidious process, with some common features. Zimbardo follows not only his own research but that of others, and laid out some common "process" features - how to get people to commit evil - 1. Create an ideology where the ends justify the means 2. Get a contract from the subjects where they agree to comply 3. Give participants meaningful roles with clear social value Have the rules be vague and changing 4.Relabel actors and actions (“order control”, not guards; “monsters”, not people) 5. Diffuse responsibility so subjects don’t feel liable Start small but slowly increase the requirements, step by step 6. Make the leader seem compassionate at first Permit verbal dissent (“I don’t want to do this; I feel bad”) as long as subjects continue complying 7. Make it difficult to exit LOOK FAMILIAR?

186 I got the point before either of you fucktards had a clue.  "Evil is within".  Well no shit, sherlock.  I don't need no fucking fucktard from Left Fuckville to tell me that obvious truism.  Do you really think you are deep, or scientific, when you come up with the obvious, as if it is some deep and mysterious Revealed Truth?

187 Rdbrewer, I'd like to use you in my next experiment.  You're just the kind of malleable, unquestioning douche I'm looking for, as brilliantly demonstrated by your posting of one of my anti-Bush screeds as profound wisdom without even watching it first.

188 Say what you will about Z.'s, the idea that only "bad" people can become evil, or do evil, rather, is false, mistaken. We're social creatures with built in desire for order, conformity, hierarchy - and we may abandon individual conscience to prosper in a group. In my view, an awareness of the easy slide into doing what others expect of you, to the point your conscience excuses you, is necessary to recognize one's OWN capacity for evil and to recognize others falling prey to it.

189 Randall, that's not the point at all I don't think. How ordinary people, normal people with functioning consciences, can be brought to commit evil - what are the requisites, what are the steps - is the question. We all have the capacity for evil is his starting premise, but the question is how do people who consider themselves good, can end up doing monstrous things. What is that process? Is there an opposite process? These questions have value even if you don't think Zimbardo answers them satisfactorily.

190 196, SarahW, yes all that is clear, but his thesis leaves out those who do not succumb. Did other social forces make them that way? He claims to prove the "few bad apples" model is invalid. Yet, deep down, his thesis depends on a few bad apples.

191 Those that put up with and use abuse to get government power, are more likely to become abusers themselves?

Congress, cops, lawyers can abuse the system... is it because power makes some bad, or do some seek those positions for ego and personal gain?

I tend to think we are not all the same, certainly not by the time we reach our 20's.  The left wants to excuse immoral behavior as environment driven, whereas the right tends to think you raise up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

The left wants to excuse jobless, druggies, terrorist, etc. as victims.  This seems like simple victimology versus personal responsibility. 

**********

What happened to the idea that naked pictures of these prisoners was effective in getting intel from them AFTER they were released back to their tribes as informants?

192 Knowing all this, I feel eleventy times safer than I did last month.  Counterfeit purses....music downloads....and 9 year old girls being strip searched.  I doubt there's a safer nation on the face of this earth, outside of communist China. 

193 Eman - we all know about sociopaths, psychopaths, real "bad apples" and (at least in my opinion) real bad apples or bad seeds are real enough and responsible for much evil. Zimbardo, however, is talking about another phenomenon. "normal" people who think of themselves as good and decent, who succumb to a failure of conscience and commit evil. Also, those who are all to willing to submit to it passively, at first, and then to believe they might even deserve it. Not the Jim Jones, the psychopath, but ordinary people who want to do good who are drawn into evil, such as his followers who complied with and even enforced upon each other his order to die... He's talking about Hitler's willing executioners, as they are sometimes called - the citizens of Germany who accepted a campaign to "sanitize" their country through evil. He outlines steps, social "contracts" that lead people down this path - and in context of history, I find little fault in his conclusions about those steps.

194 I get the 15 volts thing, and that portion fits the whole problem with the domain name seizing and the TSA procedures and how the left, and not even just the left, but the acquiescent, rule following portion of us all, is so bothered that some of us are sounding an alarm. If I hear 1 more talking head or pundit say, "well, if we don't do this, anything could happen" How about we pull up our britches and put our thinking caps on, and solve this problem. 3 things I can think of off the top of my head, 1) serious training of TSA in profiling based on behavior, flying patterns and origins etc. Thin the haystack, like was discussed a week or so ago. 2) De-unionize, (privatize) TSA, make the airports responsible for security, in partnership with airlines. Customer satisfaction can be v4ery helpful as an accountability tool. 3)get those electronic scanners going that I saw reported on - that sort of cartoonize your figure...mo bettah.

P.S. About the DHS seizing domain names, isn't that about waaaaaay more than supposedly making Obama's Hollyood and Hip Hop friends happy? That's just weak cover.Isn't it about testing their ability to push the envelope of their AUTHORITY - to judge legal reactions/results and public outcry. It's really about preparing to shut down conservative sites that link to articles that substantiate the point being made,and illustrate patterns being revealed. I'm really worried.

Accountability is crucial, that's why DHS so desperately want to shut it down/hush it up.

Thank goodness for an available remedy for our depraved human nature: "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

195 I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I was looking into this news this morning and found a few interesting details over at Slashdot. The most important is that the ICE already shut down seven websites for illegally sharing movies back in June as part of "Operation In Our Sites". They announced it on an LA soundstage with studio, union, and MPAA representatives: http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1007/100702hollywood.htm http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1006/100630losangeles.htm So this is not new. However, there is something odd: these new takedown notices don't look like the old ones, and whereas before the websites were apparently just deleted and replaced with the notice, on these new ones the notice is hosted on "seizedservers.com", which was anonymously registered this week and is hosted by a shady company in Charlotte, NC. I can't tell what's going on with that, but we need to be cautious about this story. And don't forget that they were already doing it, with much fanfare, back in the summer.

196
The Left told me that this short of shit would happen if I voted for John McCain...and they were right!

197

Ok, I watched the video.

Lesson one - Sure, a system can help bring out the best or worst in people - duh.

Lesson two - if you want to be sadistic to people get in psychiatry because then it's a ok because it's just experiments that oops went too far. Perhaps someone should test psychiatrists. But I guess it's the systems fault for bringing that out in them.

Lesson three - this guy seems to have learned the exact wrong lessons from The Abolition of Man - C.S. Lewis.

Lesson four - His "hero" program sounds like just a renaming of faux self-esteem programs.

Lesson five - Zimbardo is a dick for his shot at Bush at the end. Though if it was aimed at Obama for continuing certain Bush politics I'll give him props for at least being a consistent weannie.

198 The takedowns have a connection to the upcoming wikileaks info drop.

199 @Greg - I sure would love to see that. It really does seem like this Administration is never so concerned with actual crime prevention, and much more concerned with freedom curtailing.

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201 Total late-ass reply:

SarahW - Zimbardo applies his myopic vision to a part of the problem and thinks it's the whole thing. He is in error, and has not apparently considered his error. His error clouds his attempts at science, ruining them, and bad science is unreliable science. Every time his error is expressed it multiplies, until eventually his solutions lose contact with reality.

I think that point was passed during or before the SP experiment.

rdbrewer - He could have used an example from anywhere, but he almost never does. Pointing that out (or any of the other glaring flaws in his reasoning) is not "emo," it's simply drawing attention to an error.

It does not require Zimbardo to be wrong about every detail for him to be untrustworthy. My estimation of him is that he is untrustworthy, because of his record and his attitude, and the gaping flaws in his reasoning. I probably should have just left it at that and moved on, but as social creatures we are compelled to try to share ideas we think we have the right of - like I said above, Zimbardo wants to help people, he's just mired in a bad idea and can't get out.

202 Late, this is. SarahW, by "bad apples" I mean the folks who are too weak or damaged to resist evil, not just folks who initiate evil on their own. Zimbardo, fails to see deeply into his own thesis. What Zimbardo proposes is an expansion of the definition of "bad apple". He is just not bright enough or open-minded enough to see that.

203 It is the customs authority derived from the merger of the U.S. Customs Service into DHS. USCS always had that authority in connection with import violations. Chill out.

204 and this is saving me from bomb throwing terrorists how exactly.... ??

205 So much bad theology here it makes your head spin. God's favorite angel is the Satan and he did a bad job when He created hell? When you start out that retarded how can I take the rest seriously.

Ray
Colorado.