1 RIP, OKC victims. I hope Tim McVeigh is enjoying "raisins" along with Abu Ayyub al-Masri in the pits of Tartarus.

2 Yes, and according to former Pres Clinton, and current Pres Obama, we have to worry daily about those pesky tea partiers doing it again.

3

The last couple of days have reminded me of just how annoying Bill Clinton can be when he sets his mind to it.

 

4 This year I'm just grateful for first-responders, thankful for the work of law enforcement, and hopeful that atrocities like the Murrah building bombing continue to be rare. Amen. May those who were lost rest in peace.

5

My most vivid memory is that Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center literally pulled over to the side of the road and cell-phoned NPR, who gave him about a quarter-hour of free coast to coast air time to define the issue. A seminal moment in postmodern journalism. 

You never hear any more from the birther/truthers of this issue, those who claimed evidence that the bomber was a rube played by Moros. The curtain came down on that, practically as Dees spoke.

6
The horrible actions at Waco inspired the horrible actions of a horrible person to do a horrible thing to innocent people.


and PS - Shame on Bill Clinton.

7 No need to feel guilty about the Tea Party. Geesh.

8 There must be some way we can use this to paint our critics as terrorists while pardoning actual terrorists creators of man-made disasters.

9

And Rachel Madcow is doing a McVeigh special with complete link to tea parties, just like Bill Clintern has been spewing lately. I guess the racism card didnt stick, so now its on to say every tea partier = McVeigh. Only one person in this whole scheme of things is closely connected to ANY terrorist and that is preznint B+ and Bill Ayers.

10

It's OK for conservative-minded people to acknowledge that this was done in the name of standing up to government.

 

It doesnÂ’t diminish us or undermine the fight against AmericaÂ’s slow slide toward socialism. LetÂ’s not talk about Waco. This was a purely evil political act.

 

11

God Bless all those innocent people who were killed, may they continue to rest in peace. and God bless all the law enforcement who protect us.

 

and Bill Clinton needs to STFU! I voted for this piece of crap twice and after hearing what the asshole said this past week, I am wondering what the hell was I think ever voting for this man! I will no longer be defending this man's reputation against  my repub friends who cannot stand him (and now I am beginning to see why).

 To equate Tea Party patriots with a terrorist like Tim Mcveigh!??!?!  Bill Clinton; again STFU, there are dems and independents in the Tea Party movement as well!

12 OT It looks like the mob that attacked a Bobby Jindal staffer at the SLRC, one man stomped on his leg breaking it in four places, were protesters after all. In other words, they were politically motivated; photos placed them in the crowd carrying signs about taxing the rich and stopping "the Jindal swindle."

13 Please don't quote me, it will make it harder to clean up my spewage.

14 If you're ever in OKC, it's a must see. The Memorial grounds are beauty and reverent. The museum is well done and I dare anyone to leave it with dry eyes. OKC had this tribute designed and built within 5 years after the bombing. Sadly, NYC is still at arguing over the design and how best to politicize a 9/11 memorial almost 10 years later.

15 Posted by: rightwing terrorist, proto teabagger at April 19, 2010 11:18 AM (irJpr) If you're a troll, FOAD. If you're a moron, bad timing.

16 I will no longer be defending this man's reputation against  my repub friends who cannot stand him (and now I am beginning to see why).

He's loathsome.  There's an ad on VS that's showing a ton during the hockey games.  It's for some kind of sports show roundtable thing and it's all about Clinton and Tiger and the punch line is one guy saying "I'll give you 6:5 that Clinton got more tail than Tiger" and someone else saying "I just got a text from Tiger and he'll take that action" and then something like "From what I hear there's no action he won't take."

My reaction every time is how lovely it is that a former President is a punchline in a joke about marital infidelity.  Nice. 

17 Also notable on April 19:

1775 Battles of Lexington and Concord
1943 Mass uprising in Warsaw Ghetto
1993 Clinton Administration kills a whole bunch of women and children near Waco, TX

18

Speaking as a nearly 20 yr resident of Oklahoma - to any and all trolls on this thread especially the one @ 11:18

 

FOAD......

 

And to the political left who want to make hay out of this, especially the likes of Madcow and Clinton, double FOAD.....

 

 

19 Clean up on 13.  That is fucked up.

20 I guess the racism card didnt stick, so now its on to say every tea partier = McVeigh.

Joe Klein was just on Chris Matthews' show making the case that criticism of this administration is racially motivated -- "he is an African-American, and he has a funny name" and that Beck, Palin (NY Mag's John Heileman agreed and added Limbaugh to the list) are guilty of sedition.

This is an orchestrated effort, and I agree with Rush that they are pushing the meme, hoping something comes of it, possibly staging a Reichstag fire. Look at the recollections of Dick Morris. Even though his political predictions are wrong more often than not, I'm always interested in his time with the Clinton administration, taking it with a  grain of salt.

“Clinton’s proposals — for example, new limits on firearms and some explosives that were opposed by the National Rifle Association — had ‘an underlying political purpose,’ Morris later wrote in another book about Clinton, Because He Could. That purpose was ‘to lead voters to identify the Oklahoma City bombing with the right wing. By making proposals we knew the Republicans would reject…we could label them as soft on terror and imply a connection with the extremism of the fanatics who bombed the Murrah Federal Building.’”

21 Just when I'd started to think "You know, maybe Bill Clinton wasn't so bad after all, especially compared to what we have now" -- I get reminded why I've always hated him. Keep it classy, Bill Jeff...you'll always be King of the Douchebags.

22 Deep, in your hearts, you know I'm right he's Wright.

FIFY

23 Bill Clinton is  a dirt bag, always was, always will be.

24 Fucking too many commas anyway. Idiot troll.

25 It is also the 17th Anniversary of Bill Clinton's murder of 59 innocent American men, women and children at a ranch outside Waco, Texas, a crime for which he has never been held to account, and the crime which principally motivated Tim McVeigh's attack on the Murrah Federal building.

26 Mods, you need to stomp this cockroach at 13.

27 Hell; if you follow the logic it was really Clinton's fault.

28

Morris later wrote in another book about Clinton, Because He Could. That purpose was ‘to lead voters to identify the Oklahoma City bombing with the right wing. By making proposals we knew the Republicans would reject…we could label them as soft on terror and imply a connection with the extremism of the fanatics who bombed the Murrah Federal Building.’”

But you can visit the home of a Left-Wing bomber to solicit his political support and go on to become president, no problem.

The Left is way ahead of us in defining the 'extreme.'

29 Only racist teabaggers would do something like this.

30

Hell; if you follow the logic it was really Clinton's fault.

Are we talking the Murrah Building or 9/11?

31 The troll was out of University of Colorado at Boulder.  Specifically:

Tracing route to SCARPIE-UMC5.colorado.edu [128.138.162.90]

Isn't that erg's stomping grounds?

32 "Joe Klein was just on Chris Matthews' show making the case that criticism of this administration is racially motivated ... "

Klein has upped the ante.

Criticism is now equivalent to sedition, a felony for which the government can jail you.

33 Clinton and his slave media have been very successful in masking the real inspiration behind Oklahoma City.

Danny Coulson, then head of the FBI emergency response unit, writes in his book that he concluded that the target and date of attack were probable factors as he was driving to Oklahoma City after the explosion. This hunch turned out to be correct as later interviews with the perps proved.

The date was the anniversary of Waco, and the target was the Federal Government and selected agencies.

Nobody agrees with their choice of response, but it easy to see that it was the horrible event at Waco that inspired the horrible event in Oklahoma, not Rush or the Tea Party.

And it is the ultimate in chutzpah that Clinton, who was himself much closer to the proximate cause - Reno - should get away with blaming it on others.

34

Isn't that erg's stomping grounds?

Yes.

Color me shocked.

35

I do agree, the race card is  no longer working, so they, the dims, are now trying the Mcveigh angle. I am disgusted to my stomach that this is what my former party has now become.

And to use the OK bombing terrorist act in such a manner?!?!

I saw Bob Beckel on Fox, and he was doing the same talking point. Tea Party = extremists and using the OK bombings of 15 yrs ago as a tie-in. I  am just disgusted at what they are doing, Bill Clinton as well.

They forget, this is not 1994, people like me who normally would have bought into their lies no longer trust the MSM and clearly are seeing the pattern in talking points, first the race card, now the McVeigh angle.

Shame on all of them! And it won't work!

36

Joe Klein was just on Chris Matthews' show making the case that criticism of this administration is racially motivated ...

Joe Biden is really, really white after all.

37

Isn't that erg's stomping grounds?

The idiot must have lost his cleaning job at the telecom company and is now working as a janitor of UoC  

 

38 @ CJ

It was McVeigh's response to Waco.

The opening statements of the prosecutor:

"And the T-shirt he was wearing virtually broadcast his
intention. On its front was the image of Abraham Lincoln; and
beneath the image was a phrase about tyrants, which is a phrase
that John Wilkes Booth shouted in Ford's Theater to the
audience when he murdered President Lincoln."

39 I'm glad y'all reminded me what an a-hole Clinton was in 1995, because I was starting to wonder if his recent spew was brain damage from strokes.

40 And it is the ultimate in chutzpah that Clinton, who was himself much closer to the proximate cause - Reno - should get away with blaming it on others.

Narcissists tend to be rather thin-skinned and are always shifting the blame.

41 Not all Jews want to encamp and punish people who encite sedition criticize Barack Obama, however. Jewish supporters of Hussein are abandoning him, and Klein and Heilmann - in droves unheard of in American politics.

Obama's support among the Jewish people has - quite sensibly - dropped 36 points since he began his attacks on the Promised Land.

Shame on Klein for calling for a Holocaust against those enciting sedition criticising Barack Obama's policies.

42 We need cleanup on 15 as well. Quoting the poison. Murdering kids in a daycare is not an acceptable response to the governments actions at Waco. If they had bombed the Murrah building at 3 am they might have had some sympathy, but in my book killing kids is evil no matter who does it and what excuse they claim.

43 Are we talking the Murrah Building or 9/11?

Well I intended it for OKC but I guess both fits as well.

44 Why do we not mark the anniversary of the murder of women and children by fire to arrest one nut on gun charges (Waco)? Can someone help me with this?

45 33

Pretty serious accusations. Not to mention completely baseless. Name one of these critics who have even encouraged people to quit paying taxes.

The Democrats are behaving like cornered animals. That makes them quite dangerous, and they are capable of anything now.

46 The thing I remember most is all those poor children who were injured or killed. So terribly sad, especially when they had done nothing wrong. 

It is, indeed, a beautiful memorial. Rest in peace, OKC victims.

47

Posted by: polynikes at April 19, 2010 11:37 AM

Bullshit...they were burned alive by the the fire started by the incendiary devices that were shot into the compound.

How the fuck did Koresh kill them??

Wesley Clark, Janet Reno, and Clintonn murdered 76 men, women and children

 

48 "I hate Clinton but he did not kill those people."

He ordered their deaths by ordering the FBI to light the fire using incendiary teargas devices ... as reported to the nation in a subsequent Congressional Investigation - the Danforth Report - which you can read for yourself.

I've read it. It says - in my view - that Bill Clinton killed those people illegally. But I suggest you read it for yourself and decide for yourself. McVeigh decided for himself.

McVeigh was animated by the Waco attack ordered by Clinton and the Ruby Ridge murders of two people by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi ... who was indicted by a grand jury for those murders, but who has never been tried in a proper court.

49

It was McVeigh's response to Waco.

I know. And the Left minimizes 9/11 by listing the grievances that it was a response to.

I think itÂ’s better just to say he was an mass murderer who acted in our name, period.

 

 

50

WTF.  This was pure revenge of sick minded persons and in no way was standing up to government.  You're fucked up.

 

Um, OK.  He just happened to target a federal building.

 

THIS is the kind of make-believe bullshit I expect from liberals. I wonÂ’t let it slide on our side.

51

Don't get me wrong..I would like to see McVeigh re-animated and put back to death for each person he murdered in the Murrah building..

....but why the fuck are Clinton, Reno, and Wesley Clark still walking around free after they MURDERED 76 people in Waco?

 

52 WTF. This was pure revenge of sick minded persons and in no way was standing up to government. You're fucked up. Um, OK. He just happened to target a federal building. THIS is the kind of make-believe bullshit I expect from liberals. I wonÂ’t let it slide on our side. Posted by: CJ at April 19, 2010 11:54 AM (9KqcB) Who's WE, kemosabe? Would it be fair to say that you're a conservative and you're concerned?

53 I was just saying on a different site that this isn't really about Clinton or the Tea Parties, it's all about Obama, the 2010 elections and the 2012 election. Clinton, who has never been burdened by an overabundance of decency, has been tasked to try to recover the "middle" that Obama has lost. The Libs are hoping that if they can get people to fall for BIlly's lies one more time, it will save them from crushing defeat. The fact that Bill is attempting to link the business owners, working moms, veterans, cops, students and retirees that make up the Tea Partiers to Tim McVeigh is simply a sign of their desperation. Fortunately, everybody who has attended a TP, or who knows a TP attendee, is aware that Clinton is full of sh*t. While he's busy being the Official Concern Troll of the Obama Administration, his own reputation is being shredded even further. Keep it up, Bill.

54

I think itÂ’s better just to say he was an mass murderer who acted in our name, period.

Don't ever presume to speak for me, especially like that.

No one "acts in my name" in delibrately targeting innocent people.  And the people in the Murrah Buidling were innocents.  Period.

Tim McVeigh was an evil fuck regardless of his motivations.  I won't cut slack for relativism on the left and I damn sure won't stand for it here.

55 "... why the fuck are Clinton, Reno, and Wesley Clark still walking around free after they MURDERED 76 people in Waco?"

Because the powerful don't get arrested in the United States. They control us ... not the other way around.

The powerful - people like FBI murderer Lon Horiuchi - have their  indictments dropped without ever having to set foot in a court of law to answer for their crimes.

This is why Barack Obama is allowed to order our military men and women to murder people in Pakistan with no warrants, no trials and no due process?

It is why Barack Obama is allowed to order the murder of an American citizen with no due process, no trial, no warrant.

Bill Clinton ordered those inconvenient people murdered by the FBI ... in the exact same way that Barack Obama is ordering Americans to be murdered today.

56

....but why the fuck are Clinton, Reno, and Wesley Clark still walking around free after they MURDERED 76 people in Waco?

Uh, como?  I'm not in Wes' fan club, but trying to hang Waco on him is a stretch.

57 15 years ago, the Clinton media machine did its best to tie Oklahoma City to Limbaugh.

That's right, and they're still doing their damnedest. Rush is still popular as ever, and the Demo-Cong (Democratic Congress) and the Clinton retreads who staff this administration have reaped the whirlwind.

RUSH: Let's go back, April 24th, 1995, Mississippi, Minnesota.

CLINTON 1995:  We hear so many loud and angry voices in America today whose sole goal seems to be to try to keep some people as paranoid as possible and the rest of us all torn up and upset with each other.  They spread hate.  They leave the impression that -- by their very words, that -- violence is a acceptable.  You ought to see -- I'm sure you are now seeing the reports of some things that are regularly said over the airwaves in America today.  It is time we all stood up and spoke against that kind of (pounding podium) reckless speech and behavior.

58 I remember being in a supermarket and my young son was 3. He was transfixed by a picture he was looking at on a magazine. I had to look around the diplay to see why I could not get him to come along. This is the picture.

http://tinyurl.com/yybuaaw

59 I've been to the OKC memorial. You could spend all day there. They have a museum where the entire event is chronicled. It is an incredibly somber place, but I also got the impression that the entire story of OKC has yet to be told.

60 More from Rush...

This is the president who pardoned and released a bunch of Puerto Rican terrorists on his last week in office. The FALN gang. He pardoned the Weather Underground terrorists -- and he's now lecturing us on violence that hasn't happened, a peaceful tea party movement.  We cannot even say "Islamic" and "terrorists" in the same sentence! We cannot associate radical Islam with terrorism but the president can go out and Obama can go out and try to associate the tea party -- genuine, peace-loving, middle-American citizens of this country -- with future acts of terrorism?  The tea parties, you know why they're hated?  I'll tell you why they're hated.  If you're a member of a tea party, if you participated in one yesterday, why you're hated, why you're feared: This regime and the Clintons, everybody else knows that all you want to do is defend what's left of this country and try to rebuild it.  

That's what they know you want to do.  Frank Rich of the New York Times, he put it this way: "The America that is no more."  The tea party people want to revise the America that is no more.  Now, we know that militant Islamists hate Western civilization -- and by the virtue of some of the policies of this regime, we can figure that some aspects of Western civilization are not too pleasing to the people running the country right now.  So here you have Clinton predicting something, ignoring violence that has happened and not being able to categorize it properly or identify the people engage in it but now trying to impugn the terrorist bunch, the tea party people with future acts of domestic terrorism. This is really sick. It is despicable, and it's indicative of a bunch of people who know that they are in the minority and can only hang on by virtue of authoritarian control over people.

61

Uh, como?  I'm not in Wes' fan club, but trying to hang Waco on him is a stretch.

He was involved in the planning of the siege. It was he that sent the M1 Abrams tanks. It was his men that shot the incendiary projectiles into the flammables saturated compound.

It was Clark, Reno and Clinton who conspired to violate the Posse Comitatus Act...and who mudered 76 men women and children

62 From the Danforth Report:

"The Special Counsel has also concluded that certain FBI and Department of Justice officials failed to disclose to the Attorney General, Congress, the courts, counsel for the Davidians, and the public, evidence and information about the use of pyrotechnic tear gas rounds until August 1999. This failure resulted from a combination of the inappropriate handling of evidence and the dereliction of duty by FBI and Department of Justice employees. As more fully set out below, the Special Counsel has concluded that some of these employees also obstructed the investigation."

This statement, issued to the Attorney General of the United States by former US Senator John Danforth who led the investigation of the fire, is a damning indictment of the official FBI coverup of the illegal killings of the Branch Dividians at Waco, Texas.

63

Yes, there was a sizeable segment of the population that was outraged by Waco. But that outrage by that segment did not motivate McVeigh. McVeigh's own outrage, mental instability and perhaps twisted view of the world motivated McVeigh. McVeigh acted in his own name, period.

To say the anti-Waco sentiment did not motivate McVeigh just does not fly. I know why the Right has to be reluctant to admit such connections, because Democrats will use it to smear half the country. Every ideology has an extreme. He was part of ours. (By contrast, look at the grievances supposedly behind the 9/11 attacks. The evils of the U.S., the West, etc. The Left owns some of those.)

 

Broadly speaking, he acted on behalf of those opposed to ever-growing federal powers. No one asked him to, but he did. 

 

64 This is why Barack Obama is allowed to order our military men and women to murder people in Pakistan with no warrants, no trials and no due process?

It is why Barack Obama is allowed to order the murder of an American citizen with no due process, no trial, no warrant.

Dude, you're out of your mind.

65

Who's WE, kemosabe? Would it be fair to say that you're a conservative and you're concerned?

'Bout what?

66

Tim McVeigh was an evil fuck regardless of his motivations.

No shit.

67 I know why the Right has to be reluctant to admit such connections, because Democrats will use it to smear half the country

McVeigh's actions had nothing to do with conservative ideology, so there is no need for reluctance on anyone's part, least of all the Democrats who have persistently tried to make that connection over the years. It's despicable.

68 Waco does not excuse OKC. Nor does Ruby Ridge. McVeigh committed terrorism, and I repudiate this terrorism wholeheartedly. We're no better than the idiots who said that 9/11 was the result of the plight of the Palestinians when we bring up Waco in response to OKC. If I could have pulled the switch to burn McVeigh myself I would have. He's in hell and he deserves to be there. Terrorism is terrorism. McVeigh was a terrorist and there was no excuse for what he did. PERIOD.

69 "Dude, you're out of your mind."

Sorry, but that does not represent a counter-argument. Wipe the spittle from your lips and compose a thought and write it down.

Barack Obama has ordered the killing of an America citizen who has not received due process, or a trial. That's murder. It doesn't matter if that person is accused of being a terrorist. That citizen has rights. And Barack Obama has ordered that citizen to be killed.

That act represents the suspension of habeas corpus in the United States.

70

I was sitting at my desk with the window open when the blast happened.  I knew people who died or were wounded there.

I helped repair the windows of my friend's grandmother's house that were broken by the blast. She jumped at every loud noise until the day she died.

McVeigh was a criminal and there is no justification for his actions.  Neither Limbaugh nor Clinton killed those people nor justified McVeigh's actions.  Anyone who says otherwise is fucking jackass.

 

71 "Waco does not excuse OKC. Nor does Ruby Ridge."

I don't think anyone has suggested that. What we've reminded the original poster is that these acts animated Tim McVeigh and led him to do what he did. We should remember the innocent people Bill Clinton killed too.

What Tim McVeigh did was wrong. He has received justice.

What Bill Clinton did was equally wrong. Bill Clinton ordered innocent people attacked and those people - including innocent children - were killed by FBI agents who then were accused by a United States Senator of covering up and impeding the legitimate investigation of their crimes.

Bill Clinton has not received the justice he is due. McVeigh has.

72 Who's WE, kemosabe? Would it be fair to say that you're a conservative and you're concerned? 'Bout what? Posted by: CJ at April 19, 2010 12:10 PM (9KqcB) I guess you're not a regular, so let me lay it on the line: you're a fucking moby troll who's trying to smear conservatives by indirection. You need to fuck off, soon.

73 "McVeigh's actions had nothing to do with conservative ideology, so there is no need for reluctance on anyone's part, least of all the Democrats who have persistently tried to make that connection over the years. It's despicable." -- and the Democrats never mention his meth use as a contributing factor in his paranoia, restlessness, and fringe behavior. It's as if every combat veteran drifts from job to job, robbing gun stores, before they attack the government.

74 "I was sitting at my desk with the window open when the blast happened. "

I'm curious: Where were you sitting when Bill Clinton ordered the FBI to attack the Branch Dividians?

75

I saw a still pic of McVeigh at Waco, handing out pamphlets blaming the government.

What was interesting was the complete, entire absence of the usual complainers about human rights, civil rights, and police brutality.  They had no interest in Waco or Ruby Ridge.

I watched the hearings on both of those. The crimes--if a private citizen had committed them--to which the feds stipulated, as if to say, "yeah, yeah, let's get this out of the way", were beyond the imagining of some anti-government nutcase.

Be interesting to know what McVeigh would have done if there had been a groundswell of support for the Weavers and the Branch Davidians, outside the easily-demonized normal part of the population.

Also be nice to know who his defense attorney is referring to in his book, "And Others Unknown".

76

"The fact that Bill is attempting to link the business owners, working moms, veterans, cops, students and retirees that make up the Tea Partiers to Tim McVeigh is simply a sign of their desperation. Fortunately, everybody who has attended a TP, or who knows a TP attendee, is aware that Clinton is full of sh*t.
While he's busy being the Official Concern Troll of the Obama Administration, his own reputation is being shredded even further. Keep it up, Bill."

As a recovering democrat and a now a former supporter of Bill Clinton's I absolutely agree with your assement.

I have defended Bill against Monica L. jokes, defended him against all sorts of crap that my repub friends would say against him. Now I cannot defend him anymore. The comparison of the Tea Party movement to a cowardly terrorist who killed innocent Americans is beyond represensible and indefensible.

I attended Tea Party events as a democrat and then as an Independent, I have met Iraqi/Afghan. veterans there, met small business owners like myself there, I have met grandma and grandpas, law abidding tax paying american citizens there, dems, repubs, independents. 

Bill Clinton has no idea that this is not 1994 any longer, the political landscape has completley changed, and by inserting his disgusting comments and his defense of an awful DeathCare bill has made me realise these dems have no freaking clue just how out of mainstream they are!

They have realised the race card no longer works, next on the list is this McVeigh comparisons. I just have no words at the disgust I feel towards my former party.

77 "They have realized the race card no longer works, next on the list is this McVeigh comparisons."

They're laying groundwork.

Next on the list is sedition accusations - with resultant arrests.

Rush Limbaugh will be arrested. Sarah Palin will be arrested. Michelle Bauchmann will be arrested.

Joe Klein is foreshadowing it.

78 I was born & raised in OKC.  Lost a friend, who left a wife and two young daughters.  A lifelong friend of mine was one of the first responders.  He was among those doing search & rescue in the day care center.  Told me it was worse than everything he saw in Viet Nam.  The man has never been the same.  Pray for Paul's family and Bill's sanity.

79

Posted by: Deborah at April 19, 2010 12:33 PM (CncR1)

I'm so sorry for your loss.

80 64 "I remember being in a supermarket and my young son was 3. He was transfixed by a picture he was looking at on a magazine. I had to look around the diplay to see why I could not get him to come along. This is the picture.

http://tinyurl.com/yybuaaw"

I was in high school when the OKC bombing happened. We had the day off from school (this being MA, it must have been Patriot's Day) I was had my word processor set up on the coffee table in the living room, working on my term paper on the Battle of Gettysburg and half-listening to my soaps. Needless to say, once the news cut in I didn't get much work done on my paper.

I remember see that photo of the fireman and baby everywhere, and it gave me nightmares - even as a teenager. It's still a kick in the gut. God bless our first responders, and I hope Timothy McVeigh is enjoying ministering to the barbed cock of Satan right about now.

81 83 Proving that you are a jackass is not something you need to keep doing. 

82 It was almost as if they were spoiling for a fight.

While it is hard to defend Koresh in all aspects, it is equally hard to defend the actions of the array of Federal forces aligned against them.

Many have pointed out that it would have been all too easy to arrest Koresh when he went to the City of Waco, to see a movie, several days before the assault on the compound.

Older readers might recall that the ATF bragged about directing music at the compound including Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots are made for Walkin'" at the limits of human hearing and 24/7, wink, wink.

Hardy the kind of thing that leads to a calm environment in which to arrive at a peaceful solution - indeed, quite the opposite. Infantile.

So they ramped it up and brought it to a boil - gung-ho elements out of control.

And this is a management failure more than anything else, and the thing that points most directly at Reno and Clinton.

83 Also be nice to know who his defense attorney is referring to in his book, "And Others Unknown".

Jones still maintains that McVeigh had outside help; the rumor is that Jones thinks it was Iraqi. At least one Grand Jury member thought that as well.  Find a nut bent on violence and help him on his way is the scenario.  How an Iraqi Agent would have found McVeigh is the question.

84 I visited the memorial a few years back with my brother, and when I saw those child-sized chairs, I began to cry. I just couldn't help myself.

Tim McVeigh is a fucking monster. He blew up kids. Purposefully. He blew up a bunch of innocent little kids playing in a daycare center. And for what? What did it prove? All he did was bring more pain, suffering, and loss to the world.

For Bill Clinton to try to link me to that kind of evil is the worst smear imaginable. Anyone who tries to do this to my face is going to get his goddamned teeth knocked out. I'm not having it.

The fucking shamelessness of these people. They practically get on their knees and blow Bill Ayers for trying and failing to do EXACTLY what McVeigh did.
There's nothing they won't excuse if it advances their sick, twisted ideology. Everything they hurl at us is pure projection.

Woe to those who call good evil and evil good.

85

I guess you're not a regular, so let me lay it on the line: you're a fucking moby troll who's trying to smear conservatives by indirection. You need to fuck off, soon.

Posted by: joncelli at April 19, 2010 12:20 PM (RD7QR)

I don’t know what constitutes your definition of a “regular,” but I’ve been around these parts a lot longer than you.

 

And without even knowing you, I can confidently assert that IÂ’ve done more to further the conservative cause out there in the real world than you have.

 

IÂ’m not trying to smear anyone and I am not going anywhere. I support and promote conservative ideas first, conservative people second. Anything that gets in the way of implementing conservative ideas will be in my sights.

 

I am not afraid to state the obvious, that McVeigh was a right-wing extremist. I am not afraid because: 1. ItÂ’s the truth; 2. Denying the obvious makes us look bad; and 3. The Left has more flakes than we do, and we can win that comparison.

 

IÂ’m not out to win the hearts of my fellow conservatives, IÂ’m out to create more of them.

 

 

86 Im an Okie, and i remember the day clearly. I was actually supposed to be there (in OKC). I was a freshmen in high school at the time. We had a Future Business Leaders of America field trip we were supposed to attend, but for some reason it got cancelled. So instead of being in OKC, i was in 4th hour Computer Science. All the classrooms had TVs in them. i was the second student to arrive to our classroom. The teacher and other student sat gazing at plooms of smoke on the screen. My first reaction was "Where is this?", then as i read the ticker at the bottom, i just kinda sat down and watched. Everybody did. It was the most quiet day of my high school career. My teacher passed me a piece of paper he wanted delivered to another teacher. As I walked down the hall, every classroom was a mirror of mine. All the teachers and kids sitting quietly, fixated on the screen. I passed a nerd girl in the hall. One of those nerd girls you think is pretty, but high school politics prevents you from approaching. She was balling. A teacher was trying to comfort her. As i passed by she glanced up at me, i stared back only for a second, i had no words. What can you say? Nothin. Even living in Tulsa, I knew somebody that knew somebody that had their life changed. If you are ever in town, or just on a quick stop on your way through, I encourage everyone to visit the memorial.

87 @97 No, im pretty sure she was about to do an lay-up. Fucker.

88 How an Iraqi Agent would have found McVeigh is the question.
I think that his cohort Terry Nichols, spent time in the Phillipines and was friendly with muslim extrmists there. They should have let him sit in jail a few more years, see if he would talk. How many monsters wait, 20-30 years without being executed and McVeigh was dead in about 3, from the time of the crime. Seems they wanted him dead fast.

89 CJ:

If you do nothing else, ditch that non-text compliant editor you are using for your posts.

The control characters it uses to try to make apostrophe's and quotes curl the right way make your posts on the internet look like crap. It generally takes either a Macintosh, or a Microsoft product, to screw up that badly.

The internet lives in plain-text only land.

90

I was at work that day and my son was, for some reason, not at school.  He called me and told me what had happened.

"You're kidding."

He moved the phone toward the television so I could hear.

I remember somebody had taped a conversation between an aircraft heading to OKC on normal business and the tower saying they were only taking aircraft that had medical personnel on board.  At that point, the assistance had not started to flow in and they were just hoping that inbound aircraft might have medical folks aboard on other business.  Possibly just changing flights in OKC.  I have to believe they'd have cancelled their plans.

91 Bill Ayers is just Timothy McVeigh with a pulse. (Including links to other pieces on the anniversary and the Left saying Rush and the Right were to blame instead of Janet Reno.)

92

It generally takes either a Macintosh, or a Microsoft product, to screw up that badly.

 

Yikes. That covers about 99.999% of all products.

 

Wonder if this is better.

 

TestÂ….

 

TestÂ…..

93 Guess not.

94 One of the ugliest memorials ever created.

95 Woe to those who call good evil and evil good. 

Posted by: Warden at April 19, 2010 01:15 PM (TIGTh)

Exactly what I find myself saying over and over as I look at our current direction.

I am not afraid to state the obvious, that McVeigh was a right-wing extremist.  

Posted by: CJ at April 19, 2010 01:16 PM (9KqcB)

I would agree with this point: he certainly seemed to think he was defending America from an overreaching tyrranical federal government. However, the overwhelming condemnation of terrorism from pretty much every part of the right, the peaceful and law-abiding nature of people on the right, the value that the right places so heavily on life including the life of babies and children all testify much louder than McVeigh's stupid T-shirt.  

BTW - I'm the Tea Party.  That's what I say whenever I overhear someone deriding those who gathered to speak their minds.  People are shocked to hear it from me, but I'm no longer afraid to be counted.

 

96

I would agree with this point: he certainly seemed to think he was defending America from an overreaching tyrranical federal government. However, the overwhelming condemnation of terrorism from pretty much every part of the right, the peaceful and law-abiding nature of people on the right, the value that the right places so heavily on life including the life of babies and children all testify much louder than McVeigh's stupid T-shirt.  

Agreed. Doesn't hurt to say it every now and then.

97 McVeigh was NOT right wing. He was a neo-Nazi which is left wing if anything.

98

If I understand what CJ is saying - not a justification of evil asshats like McVeigh - but a willingness to call out the crazy on our own side if and when it exists.

One of the things that led me from an early life as a Dem to the conservative place I am now is that fact that conservatives were simply more connected to reality.

More humble, more realistic, more aware of human history and human nature. More submitted to truth as an outside reality rather than as a prepackaged product that we can change at will.  There are bad apples on both sides, but the commitment to reality means that really bad apples generally feel less comfortable on our side.

McVeigh does not represent me or any conservative I know (or have heard on this site!)  I am concerned about big government.  However, I am not like feminists who defend Clinton despite the overwhelming evidence that he is at best a harasser and at worst (likely) a rapist.  If you speak like us but do evil, we utterly reject you.

Sad little irony #101 - if anyone proposed McVeigh-esque activities as my city's tea party, the tea party would be the FIRST to turn that sad fuck in to the FBI.

99

If I understand what CJ is saying - not a justification of evil asshats like McVeigh - but a willingness to call out the crazy on our own side if and when it exists.  One of the things that led me from an early life as a Dem to the conservative place I am now is that fact that conservatives were simply more connected to reality.  

I made the same journey, Jade, for the same reason.  

 

McVeigh does not represent me or any conservative I know (or have heard on this site!)  I am concerned about big government.  However, I am not like feminists who defend Clinton despite the overwhelming evidence that he is at best a harasser and at worst (likely) a rapist.  If you speak like us but do evil, we utterly reject you.

 

 I wish I didnÂ’t see so many mentions of Waco on this thread. It means nothing.

100 @ CJ

Here you go. From Andy Canuck's link.

"McVeigh was motivated and upset by the Waco invasion of the Branch Davidian compound. Attorney General Reno ordered tanks to be used against American citizens. McVeigh was not inspired by rhetoric. He was angered by action taken by the Clinton administration."

101 McVeigh was NOT right wing. He was a neo-Nazi which is left wing if anything.

I totally agree, though I think neo-Naziism is a mental disorder more than a legitimate political movement. Naziism was left wing. But I can understand the confusion for the young and novice. Read the Wiki entry for "right wing."

102 I am not afraid to state the obvious, that McVeigh was a right-wing extremist.

Explain how advocating for smaller government is the same as terrorism. He was wearing a tee shirt of Abraham Lincoln, founder of the modern GOP, with a quote by John Wilkes Booth.  If McVeigh was right wing, then so is William Ayers and the Weather Underground (Clinton pardoned them!)

103 Bill Clinton has not received the justice he is due. McVeigh has.

Posted by: someguy at April 19, 2010 12:19 PM (VRJIW)

This is grounds for banning. I liked the "punching down" jokes, but this comment is intolerable.

104

For years the FBI and the Clinton Administration covered up the fact that the government had shot incendiary devices into the BD compound.  They said the BD's had burned down the house themselves, lighting the curtains on fire.  They said that they COULDN'T have been the cause because nothing they shot in the house could have started the fire.

They lied.  They covered it up.  I have no idea who started the fires.  But the government lied for 5 years about their possible culpability - I think it's appropriate to disregard a witness that lied about a most critical element of an investigation for 5 years.

I want to like Clinton badly.  I want to say that telling the press that your young mistress was a stalker was a decision made in haste and one that was quickly regreted.  But after this, I give up.  He's scum.  Personable scum but scum.

 

105

Explain how advocating for smaller government is the same as terrorism.

It's not the same. One is a belief, the other is a way to express that belief. Not inherently related.

106

Are you using the CJ nic to make us think that you're Charles Johnson or something?

I've been CJ on the net since 1997, and here since 2006, before Charles Johnson went nuts and became routinely referenced as "CJ." I'm not trying to stir things up just to stir things up. I'm just giving my opinion.

107 "... apparently you don't know the difference between pyrotechnic and incendiary."

I know the definition of an FBI cover-up.

United States Senator John Danforth, who led the investigation of the conflagration which consumed Mt. Carmel that was started by the FBI, reported to the Attorney General of the United States - Janet Reno - that members of the FBI participated in a coverup of events at Waco, Texas.

Here is what Danforth wrote in his final report to Reno:

""The Special Counsel has also concluded that certain FBI and Department of Justice officials failed to disclose to the Attorney General, Congress, the courts, counsel for the Davidians, and the public, evidence and information about the use of pyrotechnic tear gas rounds until August 1999. This failure resulted from a combination of the inappropriate handling of evidence and the dereliction of duty by FBI and Department of Justice employees. As more fully set out below, the Special Counsel has concluded that some of these employees also obstructed the investigation."

Senator Danforth concluded - officially - that employees and agents of the FBI and the Department of Justice committed obstruction of justice by obstructing his investigation of the events.

That is not "someguy" making accusations. It is the official overseer, a former United States Senator, appointed specifically for the purpose of investigating the FBI.

Address yourself to these points instead of trying to convince me that there is some meaningful difference between a pyrotechnic and an incendiary device. There is no meaningful difference in this context.

108 Here's an idea: Let's make a thread for remembering the Dividians, and keep this thread free of cover up talk. Some of us were there, and lost family. Some of us helped dig through rubble for hours on end looking for their siblings, who weren't even supposed to be there that day. I realize it happened the same day someguy, but like it or not the Murrah bombing is the more famous of the two events. And while many of us may believe as you do the details of that tragedy, trying to shame people into observing the Waco tragedy is not the way to go.

109 It's not the same. One is a belief, the other is a way to express that belief. Not inherently related.

No. One is criminal and the other is protected by the First Amendment. They are actually opposites.

110 He's scum.  Personable scum but scum.

No, he's just plain old scum.

111 I'm with you Veritas. Lost a friend that day, the davidians can start their own thread. I don't give a fuck if mcveigh thought the easter bunny told him to do it. It brings me some a small measure of comfort to know that he's getting ass-raped by satan. For those that lost their family members even that's no comfort. There were some lame-ass comments from people last year too. Give it a rest.