1 CNN working to make Anderson Cooper seem less gay

2 sigh

3 Morticia!  You spoke French!

4 God, that song is annoying!  And WTF is the beeping?  And is that a theramin?  or a saw?  Accck!

5 Monty, I know you've told us this before but where do you buy your gold and silver?

6 Posted by: Truman North at November 19, 2010 07:41 AM (HLGCA)

That was actually pretty interesting....aside from Anderson's bunny suit.

7 just curious,  Do the republicans have any ideas ro help stimulate the job markets? like de-reg or making it not so onerous or scary (health care-or taxing) for business's see any future  growing their business's and in near future  hiring?

8 Hey, Monty.. thanks for these briefings..  The complexity of all this stuff on a global basis is beyond me, but your pieces have helped to put it all somewhat into perspective.  Thanks! and arrivederci!

9 I only hope there is a 2011 for the DOOM report.

10 Monty, did you catch the New and Improved General Motors IPO yesterday? Open: 33.00 Close: 34.01 It's a juggernaut, baby! It's a Saturn V rocket headed straight up! And only 18 dollars short of the target needed to recover the money our government pissed away invested to buy this American icon of profitability. That's VALUE, friends! Buy your shares before they're all gone, not because they've been purchased, but because they get delisted.

11

It's a juggernaut, baby! It's a Saturn V rocket headed straight up!

Since we haven't used a Saturn V since 1972, yeah that's a pretty good analogy.

12 Thanks for the financial updates, Monty.  Your forecasts of DOOM will be missed.  Merry Christmas!  (yeah I say that instead of happy holidays 'cause I'm evil and racist)

13 1 CNN working to make Anderson Cooper seem less gay


That's a lot of work right there!  How many jobs saved or created?

14 @Monty,

Bitching about government statistics being driven by politics is old hat. But...have you noticed that the CPI is a total crock of shit? 0.1% last month, 0.2% this month.

I'm a serious amateur cook. I am in the market almost every day. The numbers I just cited are so ridiculous on so many levels. My off-the-cuff observations for the past six months are more like: chicken- +10%, beef- + 20%, dairy- unchanged, cereals- +10%.

I could go on, but the trend is unmistakable.

15 Circa, I find your lack of faith disturbing. Sure, the taxpayer may have made a smaller than hoped for profit $9 Billion loss, but it's shortsighted to focus on numbers. It's about the products, now. All GM has to do is continue with the innovation and superior craftsmanship that they are so well known for, and Happy Days are Here Again!

16 just curious,  Do the republicans have any ideas ro help stimulate the job markets? like de-reg or making it not so onerous or scary (health care-or taxing) for business's see any future  growing their business's and in near future  hiring?

Posted by: willow at November 19, 2010 08:01 AM (h+qn

I've heard a few good ideas bandied about by individuals, but I dunno if they have a coherent message on it yet.  At this point I'm just excited to see they actually oppose at least some of Obastard's agenda.  I'm just praying for gridlock.  That alone will help some. 

17 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at November 19, 2010 08:35 AM (W7Ddq)

And of course, ultimately it is for the children.

18 My various murder-for-hire, pimping, gun-running, and Amway businesses all require some added attention at this time of year, and I think everyone could use a mood-lightener around the holiday season, so I'll put the DOOM on the back-burner until after the holidays.

Ah Monty how can you abandon us poor Morons in the Holiday season just for filthy lucre?

LOL, one of my projects yesterday was cleaning out a case containing my old diving equipment which has been moldering in the outdoor shed for decades. My wife is hosting a yard sale at MIL's house Sat so I drug that stuff out. I figure I can get $50 for it.

That will offset the price of the bottle of Woodford Reserve I drank cleaning it up.

19 Tami: I buy my gold and silver from a few places. I have a local guy I go to most of the time, but if he's out of something I want or the vig over spot is too high, I go to APMEX (American Precious Metals Exchange). I don't like buying precious metals with a credit card (paper trail), but it's convenient and they've always done right by me. I also hit estate sales and auctions to pick up jewelry and what not. I just sold a bunch of gold to fund some repair projects around my house, and my local guy bought all I had to sell (and not far under spot). DO NOT buy or sell gold at jewelry stores, pawn shops (with a few exceptions) or those fly-by-night outfits that are opening up in malls. You will be screwed ruthlessly if you buy or sell from those guys.

20

One more thing - I have but one thing to say to those of you who either bought into Government Motors yesterday or are thinking about it...

SUCKERS!!!!!

21 The timing of Monty's hiatus is proof that he is Santa. Well at least a shopping mall Santa.

22

Hey Jeff - Don't look at the IPO price, look at what Government Motors opened at ($35.00).  Unless you were a TARP recipient, a hedge fund, or a big foreign bank, you could not get GM at $33/share.

Of course, it's likely you'll be able to get it at that price today.

23 Posted by: Vic at November 19, 2010 08:38 AM (e4sSD)

The bourbon is a business expense and should be deductible. If that doesn't work deduct it as a medical expense.

24 My off-the-cuff observations for the past six months are more like: chicken- +10%, beef- + 20%, dairy- unchanged, cereals- +10%.

I could go on, but the trend is unmistakable.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo ( NJConservative) at November 19, 2010 08:34 AM (LH6ir)

I think food inflation will be a given, just based on the global situation.  The poor nations are now less poor, so they can and do eat more.  The Russians had a bad wheat harvest (due in part, as I recall, to much of it burning up), and last I heard their export ban was still in effect.  Add to that the growing demand for organic farming and ongoing high oil prices and it's hard to imagine that food will do anything but climb higher for a while.  However, I suspect that making farming more profitable will result in yet more farming, and thus stabilize the prices.  Especially if population growth continues to slow.

I just hope the idiots in charge doesn't get the bright idea of increasing the food stamp benefits.  From what I've seen America's poor could really use a diet.

25

Oh, and those entities didn't pay $33/share; they got both the underwriter's discount and the commission fee, so they paid only $32.7525/share.

Still, you should be able to buy GM at $32.75 sometime on Monday (or if you're really "lucky", sometime today).

26

I'm a serious amateur cook. I am in the market almost every day. The numbers I just cited are so ridiculous on so many levels. My off-the-cuff observations for the past six months are more like: chicken- +10%, beef- + 20%, dairy- unchanged, cereals- +10%.

I could go on, but the trend is unmistakable.

Unexpectedly, CPI doesn't include food or fuel in it's calculations.  Which means it says more about the creative accounting of government bureaucrats than it does about inflation.

27 The bourbon is a business expense and should be deductible. If that doesn't work deduct it as a medical expense.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo ( NJConservative) at November 19, 2010 08:42 AM (LH6ir)

I'll drink to that.  Hell, I'll drink to just about anything.

28

"Alas, Things of Which Obama Is Sure and Things That Are True seldom overlap. If the American people's collective hopes on November 2 could be distilled into a single word, it would be "gridlock.""

29

Buzzsaw its true, just look at  Santa Monty's comment;

I buy my gold and silver from a few places. I have a local guy I go to most of the time, but if he's out of something I want or the vig over spot is too high, I go to APMEX (American Precious Metals Exchange). I don't like buying precious metals with a credit card (paper trail), but it's convenient and they've always done right by me. I also hit estate sales and auctions to pick up jewelry and what not.

And i just know those items are for me! whew, Yay!

30

Unexpectedly, CPI doesn't include food or fuel in it's calculations.  Which means it says more about the creative accounting of government bureaucrats than it does about inflation.

Posted by: Truman North at November 19, 2010 08:45 AM (HLGCA)

Don't worry; as the QE2 joins the Titanic, the CPI will catch up to the food.  On second thought, worry.

31 The bourbon is a business expense and should be deductible.If that doesn't work deduct it as a medical expense.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo ( NJConservative) at November 19, 2010 08:42 AM (LH6ir)

LOL, funny that. My BP is always lower on the mornings "after". Bourbon and metoprolol work so good together. My BP was 118 over 60 this morning.

 Wonder why my cardiologist doesn't recommend this combo?

32 So, you know, if you're looking to get rid of that 1971 Ford Pinto that's been rusting into oblivion in your back yard...Ben might be willing to deal. He's like the Uncle Sugar version of Craigslist. Got some bullshit bonds you can't move? Give Ben a call!

Maybe Ben can take that rusted old john-boat that has been a backyard ornament for ten years? 

33

From another comment thread:

"In Freudian psychology, Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies their own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings.

This is all I hear from the Left anymore. One giant mass projection.
It appears that, once the focus of the original psychosis fades, Bush Derangement Syndrome evolves in Projection Disorder Palin Derangement Disorder."

Fixed it, since the left has always been a big projection machine.

34

Krato , don't knock the Pinto. heck it still has its seats in the back, and it's rear view mirror for combing my hair.

Hey put that sword away!

35 Posted by: Monty at November 19, 2010 08:39 AM (4Pleu)

Thank you!  This time I'm writing it down.

36 haha 

Zero cannot hear the American people because he cannot stop talking long enough to hear anything.

His ship has sailed, and he was at the airport. Talking.

37

it's = its

38 Posted by: Truman North at November 19, 2010 08:45 AM (HLGCA)

There are various measures released by the BLS. I am citing the overall number, which includes food and fuel.

39 thanks monty.....these briefings really have been helpful!

40 #27  Unexpectedly, CPI doesn't include food or fuel in it's calculations.  Which means it says more about the creative accounting of government bureaucrats than it does about inflation.

Typical - omit the price of the two things that influence the prices of everything else.

41 Link to CPI data.

http://tinyurl.com/u4dnu

42 35Krato , don't knock the Pinto. heck it still has its seats in the back, and it's rear view mirror for combing my hair.

I can't knock the Pinto as my mom used to own one. 

43 On the subject of the Pinto, it probably wasn't any more dangerous or substandard than the other junk American car companies were laughably "marketing" at the time.

44 Government CPI? hahahahaha

There is no number released by this set of liars that is accurate.

45

heh...Bernake already bought a bunch of old cars for way more than they're worth....and the states that have property taxes on cars made out by the increased taxes on the new cars. The banks made out with interest on the sale of the new cars.

 

Your grandchildren get to retire the overpayment for the clunker. What a deal for them.

46 Vote, it truly is a matter of life or death.

47 Link for "vote a matter of life or death" in case it doesn't work.

48 thanks curious.  I voted

49 GM strong quarterly numbers helped stir interest in the formerly bankrupt company

quarterly numbers from this administration as reliable as the documentation supporting Global Warming

50 So, what's the most sought after toy going to be this christmas?

51 "Apple Valley couple put abortion to an online vote"
Voted yesterday, was sent the link in an email but now that it's on drudge I figured I could post the link.  

52

On the subject of the Pinto, it probably wasn't any more dangerous or substandard than the other junk American car companies were laughably "marketing" at the time.

 

even though many of the cars were junk back then, they looked much cooler than cars do now. Also it seems to me that the insides at least where made with higher quality materials.

53 the Pinto, it probably wasn't any more dangerous or substandard than the other junk...though not to detract from admitting the substandard designed combustible danger.

54 So, I'm gonna play Sims 3 some more now.  The economy's better there.

55 41 #27  Unexpectedly, CPI doesn't include food or fuel in it's calculations.  Which means it says more about the creative accounting of government bureaucrats than it does about inflation.

Typical - omit the price of the two things that influence the prices of everything else.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at November 19, 2010 08:55 AM (9hSKh)

Huh?  When I click on the link in #42 and go to CPI Summary, Food is listed first and Energy second.  Or are you looking at a different set of numbers?

56
NOTE: This will be the last Briefing of 2010. The Financial Briefing will be going on hiatus until next year.

So mom got you a seasonal temp job at Kohls (or maybe Best Buy) and told you that you had to come out of the basement and get off that damn computer.

57

even though many of the cars were junk back then, they looked much cooler than cars do now. Also it seems to me that the insides at least where made with higher quality materials.

Eh.  I'm having trouble coming up with anything other than the muscle cars that did not look like a barge on wheels or a rolling turd in the case of the Pinto.

58 1 in 5 americans mentally ill. Shit, I thought it was 52%.

59 back then, they looked much cooler than cars do now.

Todays models represent homogeneity, as if there's really only one automaker design template. They all look alike, regardless of the maker. Back in the day, only a few US models by different makers looked alike.

Aside, imagine if you had to identify the hit and run car as a witness at the scene who got a pretty good look. Fat chance recognizing the state license plate, either, given the vast selection available per state.

60 Uncle Ben launches a verbal attack on the Chinese. This is pretty extreme stuff coming from the Fed Chairman, and it only underscores my belief that we're headed for a genuine trade-war with China -- they're not going to appreciate their currency as fast as we want them to because they're terrified on the domestic repurcussions of such an act. They're more scared of their own people than they are of us (and probably rightly so). The rhetoric against China is heating up instead of cooling down, and that doesn't bode well.

61 So I went to the bank to get a loan, and the banker said, "Sorry Charlie, your credit stinks. Why don't you go down the street and talk to my brother, he's a loan shark."

So I went down the street to the loan shark and he said, "Drop your pants and bend over."

So I said, "What the hell for, dude? I only need a couple hundred bucks to get thru to the next payday. You're violating my 4th amendment rights!"

So he said, "Listen buddy; my money, my rules. Now suck my dick."

62

Eh.  I'm having trouble coming up with anything other than the muscle cars that did not look like a barge on wheels or a rolling turd in the case of the Pinto.

 

Pacer, Gremlin...pretty much anythin by AMC.

63 Posted by: Monty at November 19, 2010 09:20 AM (4Pleu)

Why do you assume that identity politics stops at the border. The Chinese are budding capitalists, and therefore natural enemies of our esteemed leader.

64 California recently offered quite the premium on their munis.  My good common sense prevented me from buying.   But my friends who brought them will probably, with my luck, all become millionaires.

65

underscores my belief that we're headed for a genuine trade-war with China

 

This will clearly end well for both of us.

66 OT - 'Drones sold to Russia could one day serve Hizbullah'

Russia is trying to reassert itself as a global superpower and has increased its arms sales to Lebanon and Syria as a part of that effort, according to Yiftah Shapir, ..

Moscow is set to sell Syria the Yakhont land to sea missile – a part of the Bastion missile system – which has a range of between 300 kilometers, and would be a “game changer” if it fell into the hands of Syria’s ally, Hizbullah, Shapir told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

/In the end, there will be only chaos.

67 I've been listening for over a month now to the talking heads on CNBC interviewing the "high end retailers" and anyone who know about "the high end retailers".   They apparently expect to be fine this Christmas.  I was saying "who is going to buy this "high end retailer" stuff and was reminded that allegedly 90% of the country is working.  Which is true, but, as I pointed out to one of my friends, it's really difficult to have a full blow out at Christmas when you know some on your neighbors are quietly eating cat food with their chardonnay.

68 The Chinese are budding capitalists, and therefore natural enemies of our esteemed leader. Eh. I'm a China bear, as everyone here knows, but their problems are their own -- just as ours are our own. The Chinese didn't cause our problems; we caused them. Only we can fix them. I dislike Bernanke's habit of pinning the blame on the Chinese for keeping their currency devalued when we're in the middle of doing the same fucking thing! (QE2, baby!) If the dread word "tariffs" start making an appearance in 2011 (and I think they will), you'd better batten down the hatches.

69 Typical - omit the price of the two things that influence the prices of everything else.

The PCE ("core" inflation—the one the Fed counts) basket is full of luxury and status goods (and rapidly obsoleting tech) that, at times like this, reliably deflate in response to increased prices for necessities, because...duh.

Good scam.

70

So if we tell the Chinese not to touch our junk (bonds), are we doing them a favor?  Or will they take it as a threat? 

Or will they think we're referring to a sailing vessel? 

71

Eh. I'm a China bear, as everyone here knows

 

at least the people at the chinatown truckstop know it.

72 Besides barges, muscle cars and the Pinto?
the Gremlin
the VW Rabbit
the Ford Fiesta
Original Japanese imported compacts Datsun, Toyota and Mazda weren't muscle cars. Unlike the Honda, Mazdas looked suave. Award recognition of the ugliest car in its day to the original Honda Civic scrunched up tennis shoe.

73 I'm checking the Anchorage Daily News to check on the F-22 pilot...not looking good...but am buoyed by the fact that today is Ted Stevens Day in Alaska. 

74 Can't we just start selling China opium?

75 Posted by: Monty at November 19, 2010 09:28 AM (4Pleu)

Agreed. And I too am a bear on China. Their worker's paradise is going to get more interesting as unrest over the huge disparities in income become more visible to more people within China.

Criticizing them for keeping their currency cheap is just silly. They are acting in self-interest. What's wrong with that?

Hey, tariffs worked well in the 1930s, why wouldn't they work now?

76 75 Can't we just start selling China opium?

We can't beat out Burma's Myanmar's prices.

77 Teh Krugman: Leave Ben alone, you filthy damned apes!

78 The stuff from china is not top quality.  I've had too many things that either broke or were made wrong.  I've told my cookie sheets from Costco that were really expensive and not stainless steel but painted to look like stainless steel story on here before, it was horrifying as I'd used them without parchment paper and threw them out rather than return them as I didn't know Costco would have taken them back.  They were so bad I didn't even use them as "boot trays" as my hipster friends suggested.  But no one wanted them for cooking or eating purposes.   Every time something goes wrong with something I think to myself "what sub standard chinese product is in that "engine, lawn mower, washer" that caused it to fail.... 

And some of my friends, even though Warren invested a lot in MARS are really checking where their pet food is coming from.   no one trusts the pet food or anything coming from there, we've all had bad experiences.

79 Truman North feels that CNN is going to degay Anderson Cooper and wants to alert us.

80

Agreed. And I too am a bear on China. Their worker's paradise is going to get more interesting as unrest over the huge disparities in income become more visible to more people within China.

eh. the disparities are already very noticable there. However, even many of the poor people are profiting to an extent from the growth in the country.

I think part of what is going to stir up trouble will be the pollution, forced relocations, and worst of all unemployment(either due to mechanization of certain tasks or lack of business).

I remember reading an article about how at any given time there are some 50 million migrant workers moving from place to place looking for work.

10% unemployment here is 30 million people(less if you consider those eligable to work). In china is would be around 130 million people.  You can't have that many people without work and still maintain social cohesion.

The farmers and people who live in the rural areas aren't going to start a revolution there, it will be the unemployed living in the cities that will.

It's easier for the chinese government to kill, imprison or relocate people living in Western china than it is on the eastern seaboard.

81 The rhetoric against China is heating up instead of cooling down, and that doesn't bode well. -- Posted by: Monty

Right, while the sun still shines...

Whatever national economic status quo Americans assume to be is merely that, an assumption. Contrary to this administration's economic message, this isn't a recession, let alone a recession that will go away if we just keep going on as usual.

Ben is attempting to maintain the facade of US economic strength, but hasn't any substance. It isn't just China that knows it, or the US economic elites. Obama's first urban grassroots campaign was with Liberation Theology, speaking to the black youth to tear down the Walls of Jericho.

82 The stuff from china is not top quality. The thing about China's manufacturing sector is: they'll give you whatever level of quality you're willing to pay for. Let's say that an American-made gizmo sells for $20. You decide that you'll make a competing gizmo in China. Now, you want to maximize your profit, so you tell the Chinese to make you a gizmo for a unit-cost of $5 so you can sell it for (say) $10 and still make a profit while undercutting the American-made gizmo. So far so good. But let's say you're greedy and want to get the unit-price down to $2. The Chinese will do it -- they will obligingly cut corners, use inferior materials, whatever it takes. To them, it's all the same -- you want good stuff, they'll make good stuff; you want crap, they'll make crap.

83

For my billiontieth comment on this subject (one as recently as this morning on the previous thread):  It's not the Chinese, it's not evile globalization, it's not the collapse of the U.S. manufacturing base, it's not the point on Ron Paul's dented head--IT'S THE OIL, STUPID.

With a coherent energy policy intended to get us off the imported oil jones, our trade problems disappear.  Really.  But we're not going to get there on ethanol, wind and Manbearpig chakra-moistened carbon credits.

84 Can't we just start selling China opium?

We can't beat out Burma's Myanmar's prices.

Posted by: Kratos

Got the Afghan monopoly.

85

It should be a criminal offense for GM, Chrysler and the Obama admin to claim the auto bailouts are a "success story".  The taxpayers have gotten royally screwed and statements to the contrary are false advertising.  They haven't come close to repaying in full as Iaccoca did with Chrysler in the 80s.  And now that they've done an IPO, no further recoveries of lost taxpayer dollars are in the cards.

86

Truman North feels that CNN is going to degay Anderson Cooper and wants to alert us.

Well, Charles Bronson is dead, so the body swap is not going to work.

87 29
"Alas, Things of Which Obama Is Sure and Things That Are True seldom overlap. If the American people's collective hopes on November 2 could be distilled into a single word, it would be "gridlock.""
Posted by: Truman North at November 19, 2010 08:46 AM (HLGCA)

Venn diagram or we'll never understand it. On second thought, make that "or" an "and".

88 Question that goes along with Monty's Doom and Gloom ^TM:

Are you guys storing extra food? getting your concealed carry permits? wood storing? water storing?

If so, what are you storing? how are you storing it?

Did you watch Beck last night? (I didn't)

Thanks.

89 One more question:

Once our paychecks have been direct deposited we have been taking all but enough to cover the bills out of the bank.  Is anyone else doing this?

90

The stuff from china is not top quality.

The thing about China's manufacturing sector is: they'll give you whatever level of quality you're willing to pay for. Let's say that an American-made gizmo sells for $20. You decide that you'll make a competing gizmo in China. Now, you want to maximize your profit, so you tell the Chinese to make you a gizmo for a unit-cost of $5 so you can sell it for (say) $10 and still make a profit while undercutting the American-made gizmo. So far so good. But let's say you're greedy and want to get the unit-price down to $2. The Chinese will do it -- they will obligingly cut corners, use inferior materials, whatever it takes. To them, it's all the same -- you want good stuff, they'll make good stuff; you want crap, they'll make crap.

Their steel is in many ways substandard as well.

Our bridges and infrastructure was built with the intention of it lasting 50 years, and we're about 40 years into it. It's holding up fairly well, but would be better off if we maintained it.

However, I am willing to bet much of the infrastructure that Tom Freidman fawns over will be crumbling in 10-25 years. 

91

One more question:

Once our paychecks have been direct deposited we have been taking all but enough to cover the bills out of the bank.  Is anyone else doing this?

you mean out of fear that there will be a run on the bank and that you can't get your money if there is a shut down?

92 With a coherent energy policy intended to get us off the imported oil jones, our trade problems disappear. Really. But we're not going to get there on ethanol, wind and Manbearpig chakra-moistened carbon credits. Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) Such as end all prohibitions on domestic hydrocarbon sources and nuclear power. That is all we need to do.

93 With a coherent energy policy intended to get us off the imported oil jones, our trade problems disappear.  Really.

YES, a coherent energy policy is mandatory to economic security. But it aint' the whole damned picture.

We had a coherent energy policy while experiencing trade problems with Asia. Nixon opening China designated as favored trade nation didn't make them accept US exports any more than Japan ever accepted US exports following the Marshall plan that rebuilt Japan at US taxpayer expense following their loss of the war with us that they began. We had a coherent energy policy during Eisenhower's administration, and Kennedy's. That didn't ever materialize into Japan importing goods made in the USA.

94 The thing about China's manufacturing sector is: they'll give you whatever level of quality you're willing to pay for.

B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.

95 you mean out of fear that there will be a run on the bank and that you can't get your money if there is a shut down?

More like you either can't get to the bank, somehow the computers get fucked, etc. etc.  I live in Ohio and a few years ago a hurricane (I know but it's true) came through and power was out everywhere for 50 miles.  The only place you could go to get money was the hospital ATMS.  It was the weirdest time I have every know.  For 3 days the grocery stores (farm towns, no walmarts) only took cash.

96

More like you either can't get to the bank, somehow the computers get fucked, etc. etc.  I live in Ohio and a few years ago a hurricane (I know but it's true) came through and power was out everywhere for 50 miles.  The only place you could go to get money was the hospital ATMS.  It was the weirdest time I have every know.  For 3 days the grocery stores (farm towns, no walmarts) only took cash.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having cash on hand, assuming you have some place safe to store it. The FDIC doesn't cover under mattress deposits.

I think most people keep some cash in their home in case of emergencies.

 

97 water storing?

...that will do you a lot of good welcoming both indigenous breeds of TERMITES in these parts.

98 water wood

99 Happy Holidays Monty. I'll look forward to your entertaining snark on the the economic news returning next year.

100 a run on the bank

...these days electronic theft of funds from accounts happens at the highest levels.

101 Criticizing them for keeping their currency cheap is just silly. They are acting in self-interest. What's wrong with that?

Hey, tariffs worked well in the 1930s, why wouldn't they work now?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo ( NJConservative) at November 19, 2010 09:34 AM (LH6ir)

Keeing their currency cheap is indeed in their best interest.  For us to devalue ours is in our best interests for the same reason - improved competitiveness.  If they don't like it, they can decouple from the dollar.  Easy enough.   

As for tariffs, they're certainly bad if you're a net exporter, which the US was when the much criticised Smoot Hawley came along.  However, when you're a net importer, the math isn't quite the same.

102
20

Exactly.

Some thoughts...

Think of it, this way.. Would you buy stock in a corporation, that you knew was run by crooks?.. And, particularly, crooks without any responsibility or accountability.

If you need an example; All you have to do is, look at how these crooks ran Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac.. They let the borrowing parasites bleed it dry, at the expense of the taxpayer and the investors.. For nothing more than the votes from the parasites.

You don't think, they'll let the union parasites bleed GM dry?.. At the expense of the investors.. For votes from the union parasites.

 I wouldn't buy it on a bet.

103 maverick muse: No, I'm actually very serious, and I've seen a lot of very high-quality stuff come out of Chinese factories. Electronics, yes, but also craft items like musical instruments. They can do quality work -- but the price differential (when you factor in all of the variables) tends to narrow quite a bit. I remember hearing a lot of my guitar-pickin' compadres proclaim that the Chinese would never make a decent acoustic guitar, and many jokes were made about the Esteban plywood crap being sold at retail outlets. But now about half of my friends are playing Chinese-made instruments: Guilds, Blueridge, Morgan Monroe, etc. All Chinese-made, and all quite good. As good as a genuine Martin D-18? No, but then again they only cost a quarter as much as a Martin. (And the way most of us play, you're not going to hear a difference anyhow.) Quality of manufacture: good to excellent. A lot of those gits have gone through several years of road-touring now, and are holding up just fine (better than some of the high-dollar domestic built stuff, truth to tell). People tend to forget that American factories have pumped out quite a lot of crap over the years. As have Mexcian factories, German factories, or Indonesian factories. It's not the locale; it's the raw materials and the oversight/QA of the factory.

104 momma,

Beck keeps talking about "being prepared" and I keep asking my blue television "beck, what are you telling us?  be prepared for what?"  he has to be way more specific or he sounds like a conspiracy nut.  Yes I know he thinks there will be food shortages and food inflation but a lot of people can't store anything so those people might panic.

105 Here is my plan to help the economy and unemployment. Its also designed for political effect as Obama will have to veto it. 1) Eliminate the corporate income tax, or at least make it 15% if that is not possible. This is not a large revenue generator, but getting rid of it sends a message: we are open for business. It also mean companies might repatriate their offshore earnings. If we have to increase capital gains or dividend taxes to do this, I would be okay with that, because it would mean less double taxation. 2) Cut the payroll tax by a large amount 20-50%. This is to help stimulate job growth AND to provide cover so that Obama can't whine about "tax breaks for the corporations" 3) Spending cuts to achieve 1 & 2, including a pay cut for Federal employees, budget freezes or rollbacks, and getting rid of some departments. It won't be allowed to be passed by the Senate or Obama but its designed to be Shock & Awe. We need that because little penny packet tax credits and shit is worthless. Also, if this only was revenue neutral I would be okay with it - we need to "pop the clutch" on the economy via private sector. Real deficit cutting would be done through entitlement reform, which could be done later. This is designed to start growth and hiring.

106 Oh, I have not run the numbers on this at all - the payroll tax cut might be way too large to do...not sure what to do then...maybe just do that and not the corporate tax? But I like the corporate tax because its actually cheap and sends a huge message to business people all over the world.

107

We had a coherent energy policy while experiencing trade problems with Asia. Nixon opening China designated as favored trade nation didn't make them accept US exports any more than Japan ever accepted US exports following the Marshall plan that rebuilt Japan at US taxpayer expense following their loss of the war with us that they began. We had a coherent energy policy during Eisenhower's administration, and Kennedy's. That didn't ever materialize into Japan importing goods made in the USA.

Comparative advantage, maverick.  American cars have been the crapski for four decades.  Plus, Detroit never seriously considered Japan as a market because they never seriously began right-hand drive production.  I'm not going to blame Japan or China or Benin or those two new moons around Pluto for dumbshit business practices on our side. 

As for China, we will never again be able to compete with them on spatulas and chia pets and we should not try.  That kind of production, especially textiles, naturally and historically gravitates to the lowest production cost center.

American exports, even now, are the seventh largest economy in the world.  We still build stuff, we still sell it.  What we have to stop doing is treating businesses that employ people as the enemy as the lefties invariably end up doing.

And I don't think its a particularly useful example to cite any energy policy before OPEC as being relevant.

108 Monty, that's very true. Some of the great prices coming out of China is simply stripping the quality out, using cheap materials. etc.

109 Posted by: sexypig at November 19, 2010 10:04 AM (hdoLK)

It also sends a big message to the American people who have no jobs and are losing their houses physically and the house value nonetheless.  Unless the republicans do something to help real people, real Americans this is going to cause a shit storm. 

110 "As for China, we will never again be able to compete with them on spatulas and chia pets and we should not try." Technically, say in 100 years, production will not be based on low wages because they will have converged all over the globe.

111 Electronics, yes, but also craft items like musical instruments.--Monty

Fill me in, what musical instruments?

112 53 Also it seems to me that the insides at least where made with higher quality materials.
------------
That's 'cause they were still using free-range naugas for the naugahyde. Today's modern factory-farmed naugas are all hopped up on steroids, so the hyde quality has gone down.

113 "The thing about China's manufacturing sector is: they'll give you whatever level of quality you're willing to pay for." Pottery Barn makes wood furniture in China. Wal-mart does too. Different factories for sure. Sometimes, there is a technical ability though. For example, in Taiwan they use made in USA co-ax cable because its simply way better. I doubt the Taiwanese just don't want to make it. They simply don't know how...yet.

114 Point being, the worth of a wooden musical instrument takes years to prove.

The Chinese pianos are NOT the highest quality pianos available, no matter. Not yet. The same argument could be applied still against Japanese, as well.

115

Technically, say in 100 years, production will not be based on low wages because they will have converged all over the globe.

We have no idea.  Trying to forecast that trend is about as accurate as the climate doofuses predicting the average global temeprature fifty eyars from now.  A century before the Model T, the assembly line was unforeseen.  A century before Amazon, no one could predict sitting at home to shop.  A century hence techonology will have worked additinal wonders.

Or, as Kratos will be around to advise us shortly...not.

116 Real "shock and awe" would involve cutting the federal government employees by half and cutting their salaries back to pre BO levels, period, end of sentence, no excuses.  It would also involve fixing social security so the people who expected to receive it do and those who know they won't get something in return to plan for their futures.  They have to reform  welfare and clean up the voter rolls.  They also have to really go after the fraud in welfare, social security and medicare, medicade.  Even if it's just to make an example out of people like the IRS does when they go after big celebs at tax time.  They need to reform the IRS too and just flat out eliminate departments.  If the American people are paying for Czars and the cabinet, then the cabinet needs to stay and the Czars need to go.

I think the republicans and democrats are one in the same and they are going to keep the status quo.   But, if they keep bailing out big business and the banks eventually the American people are going to be fed up.

Oh and they have to prevent the TSA from unionizing.  In fact the whole union process is a mess and needs to be reformed too.   those folks, especially the teachers, become millionaires on our dime.   Meanwhile some people aren't eating, this is wrong, just plain wrong.

117 curious:

Aren't we already seeing unrest?  Columbus, OH has turned into a cesspool. It used to be thug on thug crime/murder, but know people are being killed daily at ATMS, stop lights, etc.  Hell. everyday now, the news has a story of some asshole killing their child.  I can't ever remember a time when we were so close to the edge

118 @Circa, well I can show you furniture factories that have moved from Taiwan to China and that are now in Vietnam, Cambodia, and I shit you not, Bangladesh. In Bangladesh, there is zero furniture industry, so they have to start from scratch with lumber mills. This one huge company is doing to "hit low prices points." They fly in Chinese engineers to help start it up...just like the flew Americans to Taiwan in the 70's and then Taiwanese to China in the 90's....it seems to be moving faster and faster now. and keep in mind, that when China gets too rich to make clothes for example, the next place that makes clothes isn't just making them for Wal-Mart USA but Wal-Mart China...meaning the volume is even higher...its a positive feedback loop. It just sucks to be an American lathe operator while this is going on.

119 Fill me in, what musical instruments? Oh, hell, where do I start? Any guitar under $500, pretty much. (Electric or Acoustic) Amplifiers Effects racks/kick pedals/mixers/etc. (Music electronics, in other words) Microphones, pickups, sensors Violins Cellos Drum sets (from bongos to Tympani) Brass (from Tubas all the way to Trumpets) Banjos Mandolins Keyboards/Synthesizers Harmonicas ...and on and on. If you think of an instrument, the Chinese probably make it for export. The Chinese are even getting into building pianos. The South Koreans used to make the low-cost stuff (via Samick), but in the late 1990's most of the manufacturing moved to China. Fender makes most of their Squier line there, as does Gibson's Epiphone subsidiary.

120 89 Did you watch Beck last night? (I didn't)
------------
As a Mormon, if I want to be lectured on food storage, all I have to do is sneak into a Relief Society meeting.

That said, it took him forever to get around to talking about his hyped food storage subject, and then he didn't say much. The show was mostly George Soros.

121

Electronics, yes, but also craft items like musical instruments.--Monty

Fill me in, what musical instruments?

I picked up a high quality Chinese made Kazoo at Chuck E. Cheese's yesterday.  It only cost me 4 tickets, but with Helicopter Ben's QE2 it will probably cost 8 tickets by the end of the week.

122

As a Mormon, if I want to be lectured on food storage, all I have to do is sneak into a Relief Society meeting.

That said, it took him forever to get around to talking about his hyped food storage subject, and then he didn't say much. The show was mostly George Soros.

Yeah, that's why I don't watch his shows. They aren't scripted. It's essentially a listen to glenn beck brain fart on tv for an hour show.

I have a question for you. Do all mormons store food?

123 Monty,

My original criticism of work from China sold in America was motivated from what I've read in military journals about the Air Force and Navy concerns that Chinese components run our Military's mechanisms. And the Air Force, at least, is worried.

Also, machined parts produced in China do not stand up against American standards, unions aside.

I've spent time recently testing pianos built in China, and know that all of the "American" brands are now made in China with the exception of handcrafted Steinways. The old American pianos made in the USA selling used are often finer uprights than the new Chinese models being sold along with electronic keyboards @ The Steinway Gallery. And try as they might, the Kawai is not the Yamaha that still isn't the old Baldwin or Steinway built in America.  It isn't mere sentiment or even touch, but TONE.

124 @curious, any plan we need, I think it needs to be shock and awe. I just think that including the entitlement stuff in it will get all the media attention and give the Dems something to rally around. Make them fucking veto a plan that "helps the working man, and those who create jobs for the working man" If you put SS reform in there, it also will make the bill like Obamacare - huge unwieldy, and open to attack. One plan for jobs and growth. Another plan for deficit reduction. Say the public really wants jobs and growth but is less enthusiastic about entitlement reform. The GOP will get plaudits for the growth plan, and no one will blame them for trying on entitlements as much. You try it all at once and the Dems will demagog like you never seen. Just my two cents. We have 2 years. I'd say first year for economy and jobs. Once that is vetoed and blame properly fucking assigned, have a "discussion about entitlement reform." Frankly, we may need that. Too many people think its salvageable.

125 These freshman congress peeps are still talking such a good story.  What's the over and under on when they go to the dark side?

126 @maverick muse, part of the problem is not China, but consumers. They want cheap stuff. Or decent stuff. Hell, the luxury brands now try to market upscale but sell to the masses...

127 " Frankly, we may need that. Too many people think its salvageable.

Posted by: sexypig at November 19, 2010 10:25 AM (hdoLK)

yeah they must be the same folks who thought fannie and freddie are sound...

128 thanks to bernie, everyone knows what a ponzi scheme is..

129

and keep in mind, that when China gets too rich to make clothes for example, the next place that makes clothes isn't just making them for Wal-Mart USA but Wal-Mart China...meaning the volume is even higher...its a positive feedback loop.

Except this can't last.  I'm with many of the others here who recognize that the Chinese are not 100-feet tall.  The currency issue is going to bite them in the end and hard.  Also, those mountians of reserves do not really do a country any good in the macroeconomic sense because if they are not used they just become a bigger and bigger boat anchor on the economy (not the sort of feedback loop one wants).

I know that what I say can sound dismissive to hard-hit sectors of the economy, but protectionism will hurt us in the end because the retaliation will come at healthy sectors.  We have to develop and energy policy and step one is opening up every damn where to drilling.  Step two is building compact nukes and a new grid.

130 For a while, they were trying to re inflate the bubbles.  Guess they realize that horse has left the barn.  Perception that the big banks and big business will be getting yet another "bailout" and this time from the republicans isn't going to sit well with regular people.  Some people do not realize that their job came from republican reform, they will believe BO when he says, see you had to wait a little bit but my plan worked, in spite of the evil republicans who want to take away your welfare and social security and obamacare"

131 Manufacturing in the US Dead?  Not so much as of Oct 2009.  But never fear, Washington is working to kill it even as we speak. And no, it is NOT due to wages;

WASHINGTON -- Despite the worst economic downturn in decades, manufacturing continues to play a critical role in the U.S. economy but is challenged by increasing costs including corporate taxes, health care and pensions, regulations, energy and tort litigation, according to The Facts About Modern Manufacturing released today. The new Facts handbook was produced in partnership by The Manufacturing Institute, the Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI and the U.S. Department of Commerce.

http://tinyurl.com/23b4gmu

“The facts clearly illustrate that manufacturing is central to America’s economic future,” said Emily Stover DeRocco, president, The Manufacturing Institute. “The United States has the largest manufacturing economy in the world, producing $1.6 trillion in goods annually.

132 123 I have a question for you. Do all mormons store food?
------------
All Mormons are *supposed* to store food. As to whether all do, well, we're all individuals. I suspect the majority of Mormons have some token amount of food storage, but I doubt most have the one year supply we've been told to store.

And the one year supply mandate is itself a step down; I think when I was young it was supposed to be two years.

133 Vic, didn't that NY manufacturing report say that we are in the negative numbers for the first time?

Is it true that furniture isn't being made in the carolinas anymore.  I remember my dad bought a piece of furniture there for my mom when he went down for business.  It was beautifully crafted and is a staple at mom's house.  It just says "wow, this cost a fortune but it looks better every year"...is that gone?

134 repost for next thread (sorry, but figured you brainiacs/morons would be interested):

Holy Shit! Totally OT.  Totally New To Me:

Have you ever heard of this? Do you know you are paying to school Dictators/Murderers? It is Dept of Defense thing:

When the elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, was dragged from his bed and flown out of the country in his pyjamas last year, it was no surprise to find that this classic coup was led by a graduate of the School of Americas, the notorious army training school in Fort Benning, Georgia. But General Vasquez was simply following a well-trodden path for autocrats in Honduras – after all, two of the country's most hated past dictators, Juan Melgar Castro and Policarpo Paz Garcia, had also attended the school.

More than 60,000 Latin American soldiers have been trained at the School of the Americas – among them, the some of the region's most notorious human rights abusers

More info

135 I always wonder about the mormons.  They seem extremely practical, they wisely stopped at the great salt lake instead of tackling those mountains.

136 It isn't mere sentiment or even touch, but TONE. Oh, that's always true. With musical instruments, what you're paying for in the end is not simply manufacture, but balance and tone. The chinese can build perfectly capable instruments that will serve for most purposes, but once players reach a certain level of skill, they tend to suffer in comparison. Still: you've got to be a pretty damned good guitar player to leverage the higher quality of a Martin over a Chinese-made Guild, and you have to be a sharp listener to hear the difference. And you have to ask yourself, as a player, if the extra thousand you're going to be paying for a Martin is really worth the cost given your own skills. And even modern Martins don't really stack up to the golden-era stuff. I've played lots of recent-vintage Martins and Gibsons that sound pretty skunky, frankly. I suspect it's not the construction so much as the wood they use now (plus too-heavy bracing on the Gibbies). Modern Martins are very good, but you're paying about a 30% premium for the name. Most of the problem is that it's just hard to find good wood nowadays (Brazilian rosewood is worth it's weight in gold, almost literally). To my ear, a modern Martin D-18 and a Chinese-built Guild GAD-40 sound about the same in a good musicians' hands. (Though the Martin will certainly hold its value better over time. Some Martins actually appreciate as they age, while the Guilds don't.)

137 136  they wisely stopped at the great salt lake instead of tackling those mountains
---------------
That's 'cause Brigham Young was puking his guts out in the wagon and just wanted to frikkin' stop. "This the place. Yeah, that's the ticket."

138 Circa, part of the China story is bubble. But a lot of it is not. I am referring not to China keeping on making everything, but when factories move out of China because its too expensive. Its already happening. Wages are up 30%. Then when the new factory opens in Bangladesh, it not only supplies the US but also Chinese consumers. That's what I am talking about. Curious, we still do make some furniture in the USA - some of it high end. Their are Ashley stores in Taiwan and China. Rich Chinese buy that stuff too. Oh, and this will blow your mind. Big Lots sells a lot of cheap Sauder furniture, which is still made in Archbold, Ohio. They are still very strong and not going anywhere. They also import but mainly different stuff. Its amazing that the low-end is still made in the USA, albeit at a very automated plant.

139

My various murder-for-hire, pimping, gun-running, and Amway businesses all require some added attention at this time of year

Are you hiring seasonal help? Are you accepting applications.

I am confident that I have the skills, experience and attitude necessary to make a positive contribution to your staff.  If my inquiry is of interest to you,  I welcome the opportunity to discuss further.

140 momma - I've taught at OAS, and bravo to those guys for rooting out a marxist. They did it with full constitutional authority and did it well.

141 sexypig - you can still get handmade Amish stuff at just above reasonable prices if your willing to wait a month or two for delivery.

142 Are you hiring seasonal help? Are you accepting applications. I'm always looking for highly-motivated, self-starting, psychopathically-violent helping hands around the holidays. Generally, a reference from your PO or former cellmate is enough to get the wheels rolling. You will be expected to bring your own pistol, crowbar, and gutting knife. If you are of the girthy type, I have a certain job that will require you to dress up in a Santa suit with a sawed-off shotgun hidden under the jacket.

143 You realize the Brigham Young had advance teams planting and preparing the valley, a year or more before he and the full flock showed up. He was a great organizer and planner, he picked up a mess and fixed it.

144 Vic, didn't that NY manufacturing report say that we are in the negative numbers for the first time?

Is it true that furniture isn't being made in the carolinas anymore.

Posted by: curious at November 19, 2010 10:36 AM (p302b)

I didn't see anything in the article that said we were negative. As for furniture NC used to be the nation's leader for furniture. I think it still is but as of 2003 in this report the Chinese were growing rapidly. And look at the chart showing the numbers.

Again, it is NOT labor that is killing the U.S. It is what is called "overhead" here which is another codeword for taxes and regulation.

http://tinyurl.com/27yvgs8

145

103

That reminds me...

Coming soon from the United States Treasury - The GM Lottery:
1st prize - 100 shares of GM common stock
2nd prize - 200 shares of GM common stock

146 141 - sorry SOA

147 "Web censorship bill sails through Senate committee"
Went to daily caller to find out what article beck was reading and found the one above but not the article beck was reading.   In a nutshell, apparently some guy named podesta is encouraging the prez to circumvent the congress and the senate to get his agenda fully accomplished.  Beck read off the myriad of ways he could do this including executive orders.  Well, since we don't need congress and the senate anymore, that will be a nice savings right there.  (sarc)

148 @Vic, absolutely right. Most outsourcing to China does not involve moving actual factories, but instead just placing orders to Chinese factories. How come Apple doesn't open a factory in China and take advantage of the cheap labor while keeping total control, something Apple supposedly values. Well, running a factory in China (or the US) is a big pain. China has tons of regulations, too, but of course, if you know who to pay, those go away. Foreign owned companies, Taiwanese included, often get far more intrusively monitored, fined, etc. than the locals. Thus, the US company outsources rather than open its own factory (in most cases.) That should tell you something.

149 Posted by: sexypig at November 19, 2010 11:00 AM (hdoLK)

Isn't there that big giant elephant in the room when you do business with those communist dictator ships....they can stop you from leaving the country, even arrest you and they can just take over the entire factory, didn't chavez do that in Venezuela...like take a whole company or something?

150

When the elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, was dragged from his bed and flown out of the country in his pyjamas last year, it was no surprise to find that this classic coup was led by a graduate of the School of Americas, the notorious army training school in Fort Benning, Georgia. But General Vasquez was simply following a well-trodden path for autocrats in Honduras – after all, two of the country's most hated past dictators, Juan Melgar Castro and Policarpo Paz Garcia, had also attended the school.

More than 60,000 Latin American soldiers have been trained at the School of the Americas – among them, the some of the region's most notorious human rights abusers

did you go to college momma? I was a history major and heard this shit daily from my latin american professor.  Also, Manuel Zelaya was trying to break the constitution and run for another term.

The school of Americas isn't a bad thing. It allows us to get highly placed officers into South American armies that tend to be pro american. Sure some of them turn out to be rotten eggs, but you win some and you lose some.

151 144 You realize the Brigham Young had advance teams planting and preparing the valley, a year or more before he and the full flock showed up. He was a great organizer and planner, he picked up a mess and fixed it. ----------- Yes, but I'm also a moron, so I like to joke around.

152 @ curious, oh hell yeah. If you want to close a factory in China, you have to pay massive severance pay, so often the Taiwanese or Korean (or Chinese) owners try to skip out. The owners actually have to do jail time if caught. They are also crazy as hell. In Vietnam the government just ups the minimum wage at the drop of the hat, screw the guy who invested in factory there based on the low wages. A lot of companies invest in China and then become disillusioned as they lose money on other expenses like bribes.

153 Ben, plus, if we don't train them, they might be even WORSE. Its not as if they were angels before SOA started.

154

Posted by: Monty at November 19, 2010 10:48 AM (4Pleu)

I have no references as rarely get caught and my crews prefer to remain underground.  I am self-styled pirate and a master of disguise and identity theft. My preferred weapons are shucking knives, machetes and ammonium nitrate explosives.  Although a master of ancient Washu Kung Fu,  I prefer street fighting and blunt force trauma.  

I do not hurt women though. I only smack them around when they ask for it.  I am clean, aside from daily drinking and cocaine, crank and meth, but I only use on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. 

  I love to fuck midgets and albinos and I only go queer in prison. I have hepitises B.  And the only things I fear are clowns and  crickets.

155 Monty, I'm guessing the hit man part of your bidness will really boom this year.  It's cheaper and easier than going Christmas shopping.

156 part of the problem is not China, but consumersMERCHANTS. They want cheap stuff.

Consider well the differential between production cost and sales price when comparing materials made in China or abroad vs. Made in the USA.

Consumers don't have the same relative cost differential to compare when shopping as the B2B merchants have between purchasing products made in America vs. foreign made to sell in America.

All things considered, the cost differential offered to American consumers is nominal while the corporations make out like pirates selling the China made products at near price with American made products.

Enough time has passed for American consumers to know the reality from personal experience. Your Nike or whatever expensive brand made in China shoes are expensive crap. And no matter how well you wash your veggies, food produce from Mexico that only costs pennies less than local US produce can give you a bad case of diarrhea.

157 What instruments?

--"Oh, hell, where do I start?"--

Not with electronics. And certainly not with rock band percussion.

The traditional, like the violins, cellos and symphonic brass instruments that you listed.

Monty, you said that the Chinese make as high quality competitive components (as any other nation's production) so long as you're willing to pay to get the high quality. And I disagreed.

It isn't that they can't, but that by using slave labor amongst other horrible working conditions that they don't produce the highest quality goods on the market sold in the USA.

Hey, I didn't say that China doesn't mass produce musical instruments. I said that it's bullshit to claim that China's massed produced goods, including traditional musical instruments, are as high quality as whatever else from wherever else is on the market.

158 I haven't seen anything "high quality" come out of china.  Even when Apple started getting their stuff from there, they've had quite a few misses with batteries and chips.  You expect more from Apple.  Plus, don't think the Chinese people are stupid, look at what went on at Foxcom.  They realize they are the slave labor and the guy at the top is one of the new Chinese billionaires.  I saw a codumentary recently that said union orgainzizers wre over there trying to organize them so they could make a decent wage.  I shook my head cause we all know how that works out.  Pretty soon, if they unionize their junk will be really really expensive junk instead of cheap junk.  The real answer is for them to become a democratic republic and then their capitalism will take off.  Funny thing, for capitalism to really work you need a totally free society.

Wish the folks in DC would realize this, we would bounce back if they did.

159 Not with electronics. And certainly not with rock band percussion. Buh? Every piece of electronics gear I have on my rig is made in China (or Taiwan, in the case of my Boss pedals). My Tascam mixing unit? China. The Shure mics? China. My Fishman acoustic pickup? China. My effects rig? China. Now, granted, I am but a poor porch-musician, but most of the stuff I see up on stage isn't any better. And the last Gretsch drumset I saw on stage was made in China. (The cymbals came from Mexico, though. I think, but the player had switched them out.) Fender electrics are mostly coming out of Mexico now (a few high-end models are still made in Corona, but that's mostly custom-shop stuff). Ditto amps. Even PRS, who held out for a long time against outsourcing, finally started producing their low-end stuff in China.

160 Still: you've got to be a pretty damned good guitar player to leverage the higher quality...

Then we agree to agree on the limitations inherent in Chinese manufacturing, that a customer could be willing to pay them the price for a Steinway but not get a Steinway from them.

161 "Buh?"

You asked where to begin, and I clarified what I was not referencing.

But again, if you're arguing electronic components' superiority made in China, I reference you to the Air Force Magazine bemoaning Chinese components in our military aircraft. The USA certainly paid China for the highest quality.

162 The USA certainly paid China for the highest quality.

Posted by: maverick muse at November 19, 2010 12:43 PM (H+LJc)

I don't understand why we do this.  They might have paid for the highest quality but they gave up the technology and they may not be getting the highest quality.  Funny how you don't know about stuff like this until you have a problem.   Reference the mercedes benz engines in the airplanes.   Now they all need to be fixed.  All it takes is one thing not to be "top quality" for it to effect the rest. 

But I was shocked to find out that the military buys stuff like food for our guys in the middle east.  Seriously, how do you know the stuff is good and someone wouldn't' do something to it?  This totally freaks me out.

163 that a customer could be willing to pay them the price for a Steinway but not get a Steinway from them And I don't agree with you. If you want a Steinway, buy a Steinway and eat the price difference. If you're buying a Chinese instrument, you're either doing it for the lower price or for some other quality the Steinway doesn't have. You obviously aren't paying Steinway money, because if you had that money, you'd be buying a Steinway. (I hear this from poor bluegrassers all the time. They want a real D-18, but can't afford the two grand Martin charges for one. So they go with a Blueridge or Recording King or Guild that sounds pretty much as good, but costs 1/3 to 1/2 as much.) If you pay a Chinese factory $5000 for a guitar, they will produce a $5000 guitar that will (subjectively) be as good as any Martin or Gibson out there. It's just wires and wood, you know. There's nothing magical in an instrument that would prohibit a Chinese craftsman from making a good one. They're buying their spruce and mahogany and rosewood from the same suppliers the other builders are. If you take a tour of the Martin factory, it's actually more automated and assembly-line than comparable Chinese plants. Your D-18 or D-28 is being made mostly by people who don't play a lick of music -- they spend their days gluing pre-cut braces to backs, or necks to bodies. CNC machines do the cutting and shaping; a robot does the laquer spraying in a sealed room. It's not like some wizened old man loving hand-crafts each instrument by hand. (If you want a real hand-built guitar, you can have Martin's custom-shop hand-build your guitar -- but you're going to pay $8-10K for the privilege, and end up with a git not much better than one that just rolled off the assembly line ten minutes before.) People beef about the quality of Chinese instruments all the time, but I've played them enough to know: if you go upscale a bit, they're just as good as anything else you're going to find. Yeah, they can make shitty guitars, but then again so can Martin or Gibson.

164 D-18 $2000

Current Martin factory price is $3200 for a D-18SS.

165 ...so I'll put the DOOM on the back-burner until after the holidays. There'll be enough DOOM to go around in 2011, I'm sure.

There's gonna be a DOOM 4???

YES!!!!!!!!

166 Vic: Yeah, I sold a 1950's-era D18 not long ago for a pretty nice sack of change. I was too afraid to take it out and play it, and figured it was just stupid to hang on to a git I was too paranoid to play. The guy I sold it to was a road musician, though, so at least it's in good hands. The prices on Martin gits are outrageous, old or new. Lots of people buy the old ones as "401(k) guitars", and have driven the prices up to a point where your average picker can't even afford one any more. Gibsons are even worse if you want a vintage J-200 or a Hummingbird. But like I said: you pay a premium for Martin's name. I know lots of guys who will buy Santa Cruz, Gallagher, Taylor, or Guild flattops over a Martin because they're just better values for the money. My own main git is a Gallagher G50.

167 I'm not sure it's wise to buy anything for retirement that may or may not appreciate.  I know a lot of people are buying art and you have to be sure that someone down the road will be willing to pay the price you will need to retire.  You really have to know your stuff.   My parents thought they would retire by selling their house.  they have a ton of cash in it already and it is now going for below their mortgage.  They just refinance before the downturn from a variable rate mortgage to a flat rate one.  They are so screwed and we'll all have to support them as they paid for college for everyone.

168 btw, i'm told the GM shares turned over one and a half time yesterday so the smart ones, who got the IPO got out.   They made their money.  I know a lot of people that won't touch that stock with a ten foot poll as they got screwed out of their money the first time around.

169

#135, most of what you hear in the MFM about the School of the Americas is paranoid bullshit. The Lefties hated it because SOA alums were anti-Communist, and after Asia went Communist in the 1970s, the 1980s were spent fighting Communism south of the Rio Grande.

One reason so many Latin American military officers were SOA grads when the school was still in Panama (pre-1989) was that they didn't bother to pay for OCS or military academy summer camps. Instead they sent all their cadets through the kiddie classes at SOA. Since their diploma said Escuela de los Americas on it, if one of those 20 year old cadets killed ten people 25 years later, it could still be blamed on the school according to the New York Times, Amnesty International, and the Maryknollers.  

A good friend of mine, retired Armor colonel, commanded the School in the early 1980s. His answer to the torture allegations to a reporter was "We're training the descendants of Cortez, Pizarro, and the Spanish Inquisition. What the hell do you think we can TEACH these people about torture that they don't already know?"

170 Yeah, I sold a 1950's-era D18 not long ago for a pretty nice sack of change. I was too afraid to take it out and play it, and figured it was just stupid to hang on to a git I was too paranoid to play.

Sounds like my uncle. He had a 1960s vintage Gretsch 6119 (Chet Atkins "Tennessean" I think is what it was called). He sold it a couple of years ago for a couple of thousand which I don't think even kept up with "inflation" for what he originally paid for it.

171 I have a Chinese made upright bass. Paid about $1k for it, with a bag. Made some minor improvements, better bag, bridge and tailpin. My repair guy told me to insure it for $5k. Said the wood alone is worth that. And it actually sounds good!

172 Anyway, thanks for the financial stuff, Monty. I agree with the decision to give it a rest until 2011. Nothing we can do anyway other than try to avoid some of the poo as it gets flung from the various blades of the fan...