1

 Life is not (and never will be) "fair", at least in the sense that liberals understand it.

Well, THAT'S not fair!

 

2
*sniff sniff*

ahhh, the smell of fresh baked thread

3 I love your posts Monty. They encapsulate Zero Hedge's doom but with a bit more panache.

4 And all these states facing pension crises are also looking at getting hit with the ObamaCare mandates.

California is boned, boned, boned.

5 (Levity aside, skyrocketing food prices is not good news for developing countries....)

It's not so good for this un-developing one, either.  Food prices are starting to kick people's asses.  It's all part of the master plan to build a proletarian uprising. 

That would be funny if I was joking.

6 Jerry Brown, bringin' the Apocalypse.

California is boned, boned, boned.

7 Pay cut? I already got one. I'm ahead of the curve. Yeah me! oh wait...

8

California is boned, boned, boned.

God, I am soooo glad I moved from there. Granted, it was interesting and sometimes a lot of fun, but sometimes you just have to move on. And I couldn't ever have taken Jerry Brown as governor again.

9
btw, Monty just admitted he's a witch.

10

The great thing about California being so boned is that grand solutions, once thought "unworkable" or "pie in the sky" or "illegal and murderous" now seem plausible.

The systemic failures of the California economy are merely a symptom of the underlying malady:  the true problem with California is that it's full of Californians.

That's why I propose the subsurface detonation of several dozen high-yield nuclear weapons in the San Andreas fault.*  Once California cracks off and falls into the sea, several benefits immediately become apparent:

- the unfunded liabilities of public sector pension plans go away.  Forever.

- the health, education and enforcement spending on illegal aliens bleeding the state dry stops.  With the quickness.

- the creation of several thousand miles of new coastline, all undeveloped will spur real estate investment and address inflated home values on the West Coast.

- that piece of shit show "The Hills" is cancelled.

My friends, there is a solution; we have but to be brave enough to implement it.

 

*_{yes, technically, this was Lex Luthor's plan from Superman, but the beauty of this plan is that there is no Superman to gum up the works.}

11 btw, Monty just admitted he's a witch. It's more of a club than an actual coven.

12

If the Fed was gone then Congress would control the monetary system?

Nancy, Barney, Harry, et al.     That would be interesting.

The Fed is the only thing standing in the way of  'politicians gone wild'.

-------

When production exceeds consumption, living standards go up (1776 -1976).

When consumpton exceeds production living srtandards go down. Unless you have a 15 trillion line of credit (1977-today).

When your credit line runs out, you monetize your debt (hyper-inflation) and start over.

Don't you know, the needs of government are served by the people.

 

 

13 Fairness is just humanity, why should a rich man have two chickens while his neighbor starves? Equality is equality. The goverment must help its people by protecting ALL of them if it can redistribute wealth to buy guns for greedy soldiers it can buy bread for hungry children property is theft anyway and how did Halliburton get its money??

14 There is so much to this post, I don't even know where to begin-but thanks Monty, it's really good. I am especially saddened to see my old hometown as number 10 on the list of cities about to lose pensions. I never had a beef with Mayor Mike Moncrief, I just thought he was cipher-like. But apparently he has been helping to run Fort Worth into the ground. Considering all the oil and cattle money they have had to work with over the years, that's a pretty mean feat. Cowtown-I hope you pull through.

15 #13: If you're not palin steele: 3 of 10. A bit too on the nose, if you know what I mean. Subtlety is often more effective than hyperbole. If you are the palin steele: you're losing your shit, dude. Weak. Step forward, my son, and receive your penance: two head-knocks and a good swift kick in the ass.

16

Cowtown-I hope you pull through.

Hey now, Kansas City is Cowtown. Or it was, untill KC sort of forgot about its' past.

17 Monty your the one defending fatcat bankers and paycuts, why not give them a minimum wage of $5 hr see if they would gamble our money on bad mortgages then. Why should I care if you think I'm weak if I'm beating you in argument anyway. Is Monty your real name ha your an imposter too, oh, if Im just a 3 of 10 why aren't you sure it should be easy to tell who I am

18

13 Equality is equality.

That was deep man.

And if my starving neighbor wants a meal, he can mow my lawn and earn himself some eggs...you twit.

Now go get your shine box you fuckin dork.

 

 

19 16-Sorry HH, Fort Worth was the end of the Chisholm Trail-it's always been Cowtown. The cowboys loaded up the herds on the train to ship to you KC people. Granted, you grill a good steak, but the meat came from us.

20

Oh...morn' mo-rons.

 

21 The chain of title problem hits the smaller players in the unsecured debt market, too. Affidavit, shmaffidavit. If the debtor has a competent attorney and the successor in interest can't produce acts of sale stretching back to the issuer... We'll, enjoy your free shit, buddy. Thanks for making credit more expensive for everyone.

22 ohm and erg?  Is that what the kids say nowadays?

And as for compensation?  It is government pensions + their retirement age as the absolute economy killer. ...just tying your lead story with the AFLCIO whiner link.

23

Posted by: moki at October 15, 2010 08:03 AM (dZmFh)

Hmmm, you may have a point. Which I think is where the term 'cow puncher' or 'Cow Poke' comes from. They weren't cowboys, who drove the herds, but the guys who worked in the stockyards and poked the cattle to keep them moving through the chutes.

OTOH, in the movie "Red River", they do drive the cattle to KC...

24 Morning, dananjcon. Why is it that trolls have such bad grammar? Is it impossible for them to use grammar-check and spell-check before they post? Has the public school system decided that grammar isn't really necessary for graduating students? Perhaps this is the reason the economy is so bad. If this is the run of the mill person up for employment, there must be a dearth of good candidates for businesses to hire-mainly because these fools cannot communicate properly.

25 Unless liberals learn to redistribute brains, life will never be fair. Come to think of it, liberals seem to be short a few brain cells.

26 danajcon, if your so self sufficient mow your own lawn. The chickens don't make you work for the eggs, why are you trying to make someone your slave? Your mom should have taught you to do your own chores and how to share. And not to people names why not look in the mirror

27 Sorry Monty, I'm never going to agree with anyone that I should make less money than what I do now.  Union contracts are one thing, but claiming employees are paid too much is upper management bullshit.

28 "California is boned, boned, boned."

See the bone, be the bone, love the bone.

29 25-I guess I could take exception to that Cowpoke think, since I think most of those worked in the Stockyards, whereas the cowboys from the Great Ranches (King, Triple Bar, etc) drove the herds up the Chisholm to the stockyards. And in your defense, before the train system was fully in place from Fort Worth to KC, the trail went all the way to Kansas City. So, technically I think we are both right. Besides, I don't mind sharing the name. I'm just sorry that Fort Worth seems to be going down the tubes. Considering their public education system, though, (and in relation to my 26 post) I am not surprised. We thought of going back there when we finally retire, but now I think it's probably not going to happen.

30 Pencil pushers scammed the system. I'm shocked, shocked.


"Wages are too high in the US, at least as a ratio of what we consume to what we produce. If we wish to regain our competitive edge, wages are going to have to drop." --Like it or not, expectations (justified or not).

When Goldberg and Steyn say the same line, the world listens.

31 Moki thats right, if you can't win the argument pick on typos. So what if some people can't spell what job needs that except dictionary saleman. The Chinese don't speak English and there doing just fine. If you think grammar creates jobs start a grammar company

32

I going with the motto of the Possum Lodge:  "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"

"When all else fails, play dead."

 

33 Good Morning Monty

LOL, here we go again. Other than some special cases involving the unions wages/benefits are not too high. Again I say regulations are too high.

As for the minimum wage I did some research on that way back when the commies took congress and that became their first major project. Minimum wage increases don't effect overall unemployment. What they effect is unemployment among the part time youth workers. Every time they increase the minimum wage the unemployment among that category goes up.

34

Posted by: palin steele at October 15, 2010 08:11 AM (ATv6t)

Really?? FYI shit stain, I do mow my own lawn and shovel my own snow and clean my own gutters. However, If my neighbor was in a bad way and came to me for help, I would put him to work so he can earn his wages. My nephews also make a pretty good penny in helping me out with said chores all while building self esteem and a work ethic. See how this works? I hope you're a sock becuase your trollage blows!

   

35 #14 Good description of the Fort Worth mayor.  I began smelling bullshit when he started clamoring the trendy, "we'll have to close the swimming pools and libraries" drivel.

36 Fairness has nothing to do with life. If you want something, get your ass out and work for it. 

37 If California is dumb enough to actually reelect Governor "I like the whore word" Brown, well... stupid is as stupid does, right?

38 Ten cities that have just leapt to the top of the contenders to host the Ace of Spades Annual Hobo Hunt and Bar-B-Q! With bonus "wing the drifter" games for the kiddies! Sponsored by Val-U-Rite Vodka and Olde Tyme Peppered Hobo Jerky.

Philadelphia is #1. Yay!

39 End the fed, HELL YES. They say it was created 97 years ago. Actually we have had some kind of gov central bank doing the same shit since the 1800s and they have screwed up the economy like clockwork.

What we need is a Consitutional Amendment that specifically forbids a gov bank since they seem to have no qualms in violating the Consitution to create one.

40 Eggs?

Too much carbon.  We're confiscating them, and your refrigerator, while you're at it.  If you want food, the DoA is handing out free cheese... until we confiscate that, too, so you better get your fat ass down there.

41 @33 Are you the dude who came up with the whole "Captain America" comment a while back? The one that everyone made fun of for months because it was so mind-numbingly stupid? If you are, take a bow because you just out-did yourself. "The chinese don't speak english and there doing just fine" That is funny man."If you think grammar creates jobs start a grammar company" This is gold. Your future is bright my friend.

42 33- You really got me there, BS. And yes, proper grammar does create jobs, or rather, it creates individuals able to work in positions of responsibility. The Chinese are doing as well as they are because of English, or rather, a former English colony. And it is a requirement in Chinese schools to learn English. How do I know this? I TAUGHT in China. Hong Kong and Guangzhou, to be exact. Get some knowledge, BS.

43

Posted by: palin steele at October 15, 2010 08:18 AM (ATv6t)

Once again dork-wad, you are woefully wrong and sniffing too many unicorn farts. Moki is right-on...my boss just turned away two young guys for factory jobs becaused they talked like thugs. Please shed your sock, you can't be this stupid.

 

44 45-Thank you, dananjcon!

45 Mortgage foreclosure mess: The redheaded fox babe had some author on yesterday and he was major gloom and doom over this and the unintended consequences.

He blamed the gov and the fed for the overall mess. Ole' Gina tried to browbeat him but he stuck to his guns.

46 Fairness is to justice as interest is to principle.
Posted by: toby928™

Clever, but not accurate. Fairness/justice lack the relationship that interest has with principle since fairness fails to compound justice.

More likely "social justice" is to justice as interest is to principle since socialism overwhelms whatever "justice" one had as a basis.

47 Minimum wage increases don't effect overall unemployment. What they effect is unemployment among the part time youth workers.

As long as those minimum wages are actually minimal, that's correct.  The Reagan era minimum wage was moot, as demand for labor pushed the market wage way past the minimum anyway.  But what would happen if the min wage was suddenly raised to $20.00?  And these shit-heels will try it.

As for those part time, youthful people, they're called Pioneers Organizing For America.

48

If you want food, the DoA is handing out free cheese...

Do we get free crackers with that? No? Ok, I'll go cut dananjcon's lawn...but I'll be bitter about it.

49
What's the prettiest gold coin ever minted?  Many suggest the St Gaudens Double Eagle tops the list, or possible the Mexican Gold Libertad?

If he remains in office, O'Dingio will try and figure a way to outlaw gold possession in an attempt to stop the slide of the dollar.  FDR also confiscated gold from citizens, and he's a liberal hero?

50 palin steele at October 15, 2010 08:18 AM

Self Defense of Ignorance

51 But what would happen if the min wage was suddenly raised to $20.00?  And these shit-heels will try it.

Thankfully Herr we have never done that. (yet)

52 My aliens make me watch House...episode after episode.

53 If I start a grammar company, do I have to pay minimum wage?

54 “So far, the market doesn’t care,” said Edmund J. McMahon, the director of the Empire Center.

Actually the "stock market" is controlled by big fund players who are manuevering with inside knowledge trying to rip each other off. What the DOW does no longer has any bearing to the actual economy at all.

At one time there may have been a lose tie, but even that was minimal and it is all gone now.

BUT, the MFM and the government want you to think that the Depression was caused by the Stock Market crash of 1929. One of the ten greatest lies ever told in the U.S.

55 Come to think of it, I'd imagine the minimum wage is depressing employment now.  If a guy was making 12 an hour and got laid off, and is now on unemployment getting half of that, it stand to reason he would take any job paying over 6.00 an hour.  Min wage being 7.25, there are no jobs in that part of the price range at which he is willing to work.  Price floor=surplus of labor.

56

If I start a grammar company, do I have to pay minimum wage?

At $20/hr I'll work for you!  _{Beats mowing lawns.}

57 ha its principal not principle if your "interested" who's the moron now capitalist grammar-kings ha ha ha

58 Herr,
But what would happen if the min wage was suddenly raised to $20.00?  And these shit-heels will try it.

As I recall, the argument was and has augmented into "living wage".

The entire premise for minimum=living wage has been to enrich illegal aliens who usurped the work opportunity from teenagers and former high school dropouts, easily bribed by federal tax funded Welfare to stfu, watch TV, and sell/take drugs.

59 What's the prettiest gold coin ever minted?

They're all beautiful when you have a shoebox full of them, even the ugly ones.

60 I think everyone knows that Krugman gave up being a true economist long ago when he became a commie. But this stuff has reached epic proportions.

In a sane world he would have been fired long ago.

61 its principal not principle
So it is. You see, there's no need to whine in self defense when corrected.

62 palin steele, your a clown. Many of the so called "fat cat bankers" work on contracts that do pay a minimal, often symbolic $1, salary. They make their money by taking risks. The problem is USG distortion of the market to a.) favor certain groups or individuals, or b.) just be too slow to react to changing markets (this is where Adam Smith's invisible hand smacks you upside the head). How about instead of soaking your boss at BurgerKing for the federal minimum wage; you offer to take a percentage of sales after expenses?

63

Eh...speaking of work, I should actually do some today. Smell ya's later!

 

64
Actually the "stock market" is controlled by big fund players who are manuevering with inside knowledge trying to rip each other off. What the DOW does no longer has any bearing to the actual economy at all.

Actually the "stock market" is controlled by computer algorithms. The computerization of trading has severed whatever ties to the economy it once had.

65 Vic at October 15, 2010 08:37 AM

Who was raking Krugman over the coals this past week in interview? Krugman remained mute when asked to admit that Keynesian economics, driving America's economy for the past 8 decades, systematically only enables Marxism.

66 the Depression was caused by the Stock Market crash of 1929. One of the ten greatest lies ever told in the U.S. yep, right up there with Hitler was a rightwinger.

67 dananjcon: The way I generally say it is, "You get a handout from the government. You get a hand up from a friend." palin steele is like many (maybe even most) liberals in that he conflates "fairness" with "equality of outcome". Which is to say: if I have money and he doesn't, that doesn't mean that my superior skills explain the difference (or his stupidity or laziness); to him, it just means that there was some gross malfeasance involved. Liberals don't mind starving in the dark as long as everyone is starving in the dark. It's not fair that I was not able to be a professional baseball player, though I desperately wanted to be one as a kid. It's not fair that Paris Hilton is an airhead with millions while I still have to bust my hump for my paycheck. It's not fair that I don't have movie-star looks, a genius intellect, or any one of a hundred other things. You know what? Nature doesn't give a shit. I get what I get, just like everyone else, and I make do with what I have. "Fair" is a word for sniveling children. If I help my neighbor or friend, it's because I choose to, not because I am jawboned into it by the government. This choice is what makes it an ethical action. When "charity" is forced out of you at the point of a gun, it's not charity at all; it's theft.

68 you offer to take a percentage of sales after expenses?

That would be profits though.  Profits are evil.  Only the wealthy have profits.

69 don't loan money to people who can't pay it back.

What can you do when the government forces you to. Somehow the WSJ skips right over that part of the mess.

70 The computerization of trading has severed whatever ties to the economy it once had. --Posted by: Ed Anger

And computerization has severed whatever ties to responsible evidence of trading it once had with a paper trail, augmenting opportunity for monumentally devastating fraud.

This week the evidence of a government figure appeared and then disappeared, having influenced trade investment.

71

Well said as usual Monty.

 

72 It's not so good for this un-developing one, either.  Food prices are starting to kick people's asses.  It's all part of the master plan to build a proletarian uprising. 

That would be funny if I was joking.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at October 15, 2010 07:26 AM (RgXpA)

I'm not sure this is such a big problem, unless you have lots of kids.  America has the world's fattest poor people, after all.  I shop at the cheap grocery store in my town, and all those that appear to be "economically disadvantaged" share one thing in common - great rolls of fat.  From youngest to oldest.  If food prices go up, I doubt that they'll fall below their necessary caloric intake even with a major ration cut.  As for third worlders, every damn one of them can starve for all I care.  I worry about Americans, not a bunch of America-hating scum.  Just seal the damn borders and let them fight it out.

Besides - some say we all need a fat pay cut, so we can compete with those who are willing to live 20 people per efficiency appartment and eat beans and rice for every meal and go swimming in rivers that catch fire on a monthly basis.  It's all part of our glorious and efficient race to the bottom (and destruction of the consumption of goods/services world wide).  Food inflation is part of that pay cut.  Never mind that automation has made American workers far more productive than any other and relatively few are unionized - they're still grossly over paid.  Especially those damned engineers and techs that suck up resources building all those production enhancing machines - they demand too much money as well!  Thank the maker that we have laws to allow employers to import as many Indians as are willing to come here with their state subsidized educations.

But no sense worrying - peak oil will eat all our lunches anyway and reduce us to a Mad Max existence soon enough.  After all, new tech has never led to better methods of extracting  or generating energy...

73 58-HH, you seem like good people-I'd hire you..if I ever start that company. It's not a good climate for entrepreneurs right now-and we have seriously been looking into starting a business. I fear that more people are thinking like us, and won't take the risk, which becomes the vicious cycle of no new business, no new jobs, no taxable incomes, nothing going into the treasury/social security coffers.

74 IIRC, union contracts often specify that that wages are indexed to the minimum wage, thus union members get an automatic raise very time the minimum wage is increased. This negatively effects the bottom line of companies, thus kicking in an increase in cost to the consumer as the business increases the price of goods.

75 ha its principal not principle if your "interested" who's the moron now capitalist grammar-kings ha ha ha There's a special pleasure to be had in seeing palin steele correct someone else's grammar, and then incorrectly use "your" rather than "you're". It sets a man up, like a good hearty breakfast. (The lack of puncuation and capitalization are perhaps deliberate, an e. e. cummings-style renouncement of traditional style.)

76 But what would happen if the min wage was suddenly raised to $20.00? And these shit-heels will try it. Robots

77 That list of the top ten contenders for collapse had some surprises. I would have thought Detroit would have been at the top of the list, not near the bottom.

78 77-Oh, and Monty-don't sell yourself short on that genius intellect. I think you are pretty damn smart.

79 This is what is so sad about the conservatives. You prance about with your vaunted "theory" about the relationship between minimum wage and employment, but the fact is that there has been growth in jobs with the minimum wage in place. So obviously it doesn't hurt job growth; it helps it!

80 Monty at October 15, 2010 08:41 AM

I'd agree with a slight variance.

conflates "fairness" with "equality of outcome". Which is to say: if I have money and he doesn't, that doesn't mean that my superior skills explain the difference (or his stupidity or laziness);

There are extremely highly skilled and long term trained professions that intrinsically simply don't pay well. It isn't always "superior skills" that explain the difference between having a lot of money or not. It isn't always stupidity or laziness that explains why certain highly skilled professions don't pay well.

Certainly, within one's professional field, the argument holds regarding how one's performance is rewarded.

81 Besides - some say we all need a fat pay cut, so we can compete with those who are willing to live 20 people per efficiency appartment and eat beans and rice for every meal and go swimming in rivers that catch fire on a monthly basis. You are competing with them, right now. I hear lots of isolationist rhetoric these days, but there's no going back on the world economy -- the die has been cast. Like it or not, we are competing with Chinese laborers who work for $2 a day, and Indian laborers who work for less than that. Indian computer programmers will work for half or even third what an American computer programmer will, and with similar quality. The same goes for doctors, engineers, even musicians and artists. We're getting close to the point that the rest of the world will not subsidize our consumption habits. Either we -- as a people -- lower our labor-age to compete, or we invent now high-margin industries to allow us to keep making the wages we're used to. (Or we inflate the currency to crazy levels, which has been our tactic so far.)

82 The solvency dates on those urban pension plans are scary. We need to make sure a conservative Congress is in place and the Senators we are voting for this month will be on the floor when it starts.

83 Re California; it doesn't matter who gets elected in CA they are doomed. The only difference it will make is time to collapse.

Perhaps they will be better off with Moonbeam. It will be the equivalent of "snatching the bandage off quickly" as he accelerates their move to collapse.

It is beginning to look like surely the Republicans AND mostly real conservatives will take the House and a large part of the Senate. What that means is that there will be no bailout of CA and their public service unions.

We will get to test the legal theory of whether or not a State can declare bankruptcy and renegotiate union deals..

84

I'm a fan of secret societies. Mysterious rituals, bloody oaths taken in the dead of night, arcane symbology, outlandish getups, code-words and secret handshakes.

 

I'm confused. By this are you referring to the group to end the the Fed, or to the Fed itself?

85 the answer - annex India?

86 It isn't always stupidity or laziness that explains why certain highly skilled professions don't pay well. True enough; neurosurgeons don't make the kind of money T-Pain makes. Still, musicians as a whole are a lot poorer than doctors as a whole. The smarter you are, the more likely you are to be well-off, statistically. (I'm not saying "the more educated you are", mind you, because I don't believe that. Intelligence and education don't always go hand in hand.) But I've often said that even an averagely-gifted person (like Yours Truly) can make out pretty well. There is no real trick to success -- all it takes is responsibility, probity, a bit of foresight, and a willingness to work hard. Bad luck falls on everyone from time to time, but it seeks out the stupid, the slow, and the vain.

87 Blue Hen; I'd join either at this point. Who has a better buffet at the meetings?

88
We will get to test the legal theory of whether or not a State can declare bankruptcy and renegotiate union deals..

Posted by: Vic

 

And then we start a dead pool on which states go next.

89 That's labor-wage, not labor-age.

90

Posted by: moki at October 15, 2010 08:45 AM (dZmFh)

Thank you sir, I appreciate it. Not that I need another job, mine is taxing enough.

One other thing in my favor. Have worked for 10yrs at my current job, and only called in sick 3 times. And the first was because of a sleet storm.

91

 Green jobs will save California!

/heavy sarcasm

 

92 You prance about with your vaunted "theory" about the relationship between minimum wage and employment, but the fact is that there has been growth in jobs with the minimum wage in place.

Prove that premise. As is, it's only spun whole cloth.

Growth in minimum wage jobs? What, the Census? TEMPORARY!

Federal mandates don't provide an industry's profit margin. Small business can't afford to pay more than profits allow. Competition must be appreciated in manufacturing when determining one's entry pay scale.

And in America, given free education through high school, why should ANYONE quit learning, to work as a burger flipper or dishwasher? Even those jobs aren't long in staying, given technological advances. Why pay people wages AND BENEFITS to accomplish something that a machine can do? The investment would seem more reliable into technology than in providing perpetuation of unskilled labor for humans with higher liability factors than machines have in lawsuits.

93 Any Governor or mayor with a pension burden who doesn't have a team quietly putting together a package for bankruptcy is incompetent. The union boys better be holding their breath - the last day before a holiday break, Dec 29th, etc. - if one goes .... stampede

94 All in all, though, there's an argument brewing regarding the need to balance the industrial playing field between the production/sales pricing of goods produced stateside vs. China. China not only uses slave labor, but enjoys a fantastically huge profit margin pricing a bit below American made goods; all the while China refuses American imports.

95 92-you are very welcome-but I'm a ma'am. Unless you are Chinese and don't distinguish between the masculine and feminine articles. (Take THAT PS!!!) If you have only called in sick 3 times, your employer is damn lucky to have you. If we ever start that business, I will definitely give you a call!!!!

96 Posted by: Monty at October 15, 2010 08:58 AM (4Pleu)

Just look at our current crop of mandarins and political masters; all Ivy League -- mostly Harvard educated. Assuming that one can in fact get a good education at Harvard (I would argue the point), then the relationship between intelligence and education seems to be approximately 0.

97 By this are you referring to the group to end the the Fed, or to the Fed itself? Posted by: Blue Hen

Excellent.

98 Blue Hen; I'd join either at this point. Who has a better buffet at the meetings?

Posted by: Jean

 

Well the Fed seems to be running an 'all it can eat' special.

 

(See what I did there?)

99 I warmly remember the day when my Dad told me to get real after seeing the tuition assistance package from Yale and U of Chicago. One of best decisions I made was shit-canning those schools.

100 We will get to test the legal theory of whether or not a State can declare bankruptcy and renegotiate union deals..
Posted by: Vic

Yes. After all, union deals significantly affected the state's economic woes.

But given the "legality", California federal court activist judges will influence timing and result factors, extending the misery of limbo.

101

Posted by: moki at October 15, 2010 09:03 AM (dZmFh)

My apologies. I sort of thought about that when I posted.  And I'm pretty darn sure I'm not Chinese...

102 The quote below came from an article on Drudge concerning Bernanke's belief that the economy is growing to slowly to reduce unemployment. The Fed chairman's economic outlook was generally gloomy. Business spending has slowed, consumer finances are improving unevenly, housing has remained depressed and job growth next year isn't likely to be strong enough to bring down unemployment very much, he said.

103 Out in Cali land, don't they have a State law that pension obligations get paid first? Does that law apply to bankruptcy proceedings?

104 103-No offense taken, friend. My Chinese jab was mostly directed at that idiot Palin Steele. Have a great day-my Newfie has had enough of my ignoring him, and is fussing at me as I speak. Off to cater to his needs.

105 Posted by: maverick muse at October 15, 2010 09:02 AM (H+LJc)

It was a sock. I was trying to mimic the specious arguments of my few liberal friends. I am smarter than they are, and I still can't figure out a rational defense of the minimum wage.

I have two kids, both of whom need to enter the job market; for spending money and experience. In this economy it's almost impossible. The idea that there is something wrong with paying what the job is actually worth, rather than some minimum, calculated by fools, is just insane.

106 Unless you are Chinese and don't distinguish between the masculine and feminine articles. But are you going to measure word me as a soft pillow, or vibrant sapling?

107 High paying jobs do not always lead to financial success just as low paying jobs don't always lead to poverty (although most do).

However, the ability to have a high paying job is not always tied to your skill level or your level of eduction. The trick to getting a high paying job is to have the right education and skills, at the right time, and in the right place.  It would do you not a bit of damn good to be the most educated and skilled buggy whip maker in the world right now if you are living in Chicago.

That requires a certain amount of foresight and pure out ass luck sometimes.

And if you do manage to land a high paying, and permanent job, if you spend 110% of what you are making constantly soon you will be in big trouble.

So in the end, financial success requires a steady income, and the diligence to live within that income, whatever it may be.

Back in the 50s we used to have a colorful bum who traveled all over the South picking up bottles (and later cans) and other stuff on the side of the road. He did this in a cart pulled by a team of goats. He was affectionately called "the Goat Man". The Atlanta Journal even did a big spread about him.

He was said to be a multi-millionaire when he died.

108 Out in Cali land, don't they have a State law that pension obligations get paid first?

INSANITY

Water and Power, Police and Fire should always come first.

109 @77 ha ha what was corrected was spelling not grammar the special pleasure is in knowing the differance and being criticized for things I can help by people who can't hey goldman sachs come to this thread the people here have high prnicples for you to invest

110 NJProgressive, you're right! We should increase the minimum wage to $38.00 per hour immediately, if not sooner. THAT WOULD CREATE FIVE TIMES AS MANY JOBS! What a fucking idiot you are. When labor costs rise, the costs of goods and services rise until they are unaffordable to enough people that costs must now be cut to bring prices down again. Since all other inputs are the same, what has to be cut, hyper-intellect? LABOR, dipshit. Or are you okay with paying $50 for a hamburger? Never mind, don't answer that. Just report to the nearest pile of sharp, rusty metal and impale yourself on it. You're too stupid to live.

111 Posted by: Jean at October 15, 2010 09:08 AM (bh8+e)

Those obscene tuitions are a direct result of federal subsidy of student loans and grants. Add in the bullshit subsidy of academic programs (flavor of the month) and irrational hiring decisions by, once again, the federal government, creating an artificial market for useless graduates, and you have tuition inflation at twice the background rate.

112 Does that law apply to bankruptcy proceedings?

Posted by: Jean at October 15, 2010 09:10 AM (OsAaC)

Bankruptcy proceedings are controlled by federal law. Currently the rule of thought is that a State can not "declare bankruptcy" but that has never been put to the test.

113 So in the end, financial success requires a steady income, and the diligence to live within that income, whatever it may be.

And given our times, the diligence to live within one's means takes precedence as steady incomes destabilize during downsizing and national bankruptcy.

114 maverick muse - I can see your not cut out for a government job, clearly Tax Collection should come first.

115 Vic - but cities?

116 Posted by: palin steele at October 15, 2010 09:14 AM (ATv6t)

Is this a sock? If so -- well done sir! I have rarely read a quality mimicry of the typical babbling idiot liberal. This is pitch perfect.

117

wages are not too high,  taxes and prices are too high.  food and fuel prices must come down.  

 

the economic mess is due to a lack of demand.  the lack of demand is due to too high prices/lack of employment.  the fed wants inflation to occur but what is needed is delfation. 

118 moki: I've been reading some stuff from various sources that posits that America is now in a "post consumerism" phase. The theory goes that the housing bust woke people up from their 20-year spending-binge haze and made them realize how dangerous the situation has gotten. The savings rate among Americans went from around zero to around 5% in two years! Keynesians want to reflate that consumerist balloon because they can't conceive of any economy that isn't driven by crazy consumer spending. However, if we don't produce at least as much as we consume, net, then this sets the table for a huge amount of debt -- as we have seen. Foreigners have been willing to finance our profligacy for many reasons -- mainly because we own the world's reserve currency, but also because we are still viewed as a safe risk. But this perception of America as a "safe risk" is changing as the world gets a deeper look at our debts and obligations over the next 20 to 50 years. Demographically, we're not going to grow much (though we will grow a bit). That means that we can't count on a huge spike in workers to drive productivity. And there's good reason to think that technology isn't going to save our asses as it did during the tech boom of the 80's and 90's. So we have huge national, state, and municipal debts; enormous costs associated with benefits, obligations, social welfare going forward; and an aging population where the young people are less well-educated than their parents (statistically). For an investor, this is not a happy picture.

119 Vic - but cities?

Posted by: Jean at October 15, 2010 09:16 AM (YXNkv)

We have a precedent for cities. They have declared bankruptcy in CA.

120 unseen - a lot of the wonks in Washington want inflation as a means of debt control. Keep hearing th same BS.

121 differance I believe you meant to say "difference".

122 Great. I just raped a sock. Hate that.

123

God, I am soooo glad I moved from there. Granted, it was interesting and sometimes a lot of fun, but sometimes you just have to move on. And I couldn't ever have taken Jerry Brown as governor again.

Posted by: HH at October 15, 2010 07:30 AM (6oDXl)

I am glad I moved too.  That is one seriously stupid state.  Its everywhere...

They need to go bankrupt.. services need to be stopped.. they need to see exactly what happens when you spend like they do. .. until then, California people wont get it. La La land for sure.

124 Those obscene tuitions are a direct result of federal subsidy of student loans and grants.

Add to that inflated expectations of academia's own worth.

Supply and demand SHOULD influence a limit on tuition. A lot of Western State universities at least used to function under the rule of accepting/educating their own residents before accepting out-of-state or foreign students. That all seems to have disappeared.

The more educated, the more proficient in fraud. And it isn't as if the wealthiest are about to stop sending their children to university, or stop funding their alma mater for tax free donation benefits.

125

Just the other morning I was listening to someone going on about the unions. He was talking about how great unions are, how much more vacation time you get off, etc. etc.. Then he started talking about how Wal-Mart should unionize. I pointed out that they would have to raise their prices if that happened. And even he conceded  that it would probably drive Wal-Mart out of business.

Good god...and not only that, I think about every third word out of his mouth was the F-bomb.

What an idiot.

126 Monty - I know I have essentially paid off my CC's and am keeping a substantial reserve in a credit union. What I need is a travel debit card - so I can rent cars, etc. and really keep the CC tucked away.

127 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 15, 2010 09:14 AM (71HTM)

Why are you so angry? All you teabaggers are the same.

Just subsidize the minimum wage with a government check. That way everyone has access to a living wage, and it won't hurt businesses. We will remain competitive and the common man won't have to eat dog food.

And... take a look at this:
CharlieBrown'sDildo ( NJConservative) at October 15, 2010 09:11 AM (LH6ir)

128 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at October 15, 2010 09:22 AM (71HTM)

But it was a good beat down!

129 MAVERICK MUSE!!! YOUR PHONE IS IN YOUR PURSE!!!

130 lot of the wonks in Washington want inflation as a means of debt control Inflation isn't a problem (though it will be fairly soon, I think). Deflation is actually a bigger risk -- many retailers are having to drop prices just to move their inventory. I've heard a lot of conspiracy-theorizing that QE2 is really a gun aimed at China's head. "Appreciate your currency, or the economy gets it," in other words. A trade war is looking more and more likely, because I can't imagine China appreciating the yuan much -- it would pop their own asset bubble, and they know it. And it would be even more catastrophic for them than our property bubble was for us, because their whole economy is still export-driven. They have no domestic market to speak of; there's no safety net.

131

We have a precedent for cities. They have declared bankruptcy in CA. -- Posted by: Vic

Californian cities, or elsewhere as well?

If all the bankruptcy is California's, perhaps it's tempting to dissolve that State which forfeits sovereign responsibilities, and allow neighboring states the option to absorb the territory along with debt. Tell California those bankruptcy terms, and see what financial responsibilities they decide are their own to cure without begging for the other states to be taxed for the undeserved bail-out.

132 @123 i believe i meant for you to think i didn't know the differance

133 That means that we can't count on a huge spike in workers to drive productivity.

Posted by: Monty at October 15, 2010 09:19 AM (4Pleu)

Explain how an increase in the labor pool will drive productivity. Decreased wages is the only direct result of an increased labor pool, and that won't drive productivity.

134 Just subsidize the minimum wage with a government check. Where exactly do you think the government check comes from? The government takes the money in one of two ways: via taxes, or inflation of the currency. There is no other way. The government is not a profit-center; it doesn't make money. It only consumes. So all you're saying is that you want an even bigger ocean of debt that has to be paid off by children not yet born. Wealth is a very real and perishable thing, not an abstraction. The government cannot hand out money because the government doesn't have any money. It's stone broke. So any money it "hands" out must be borrowed or taken from the citizens in the form of higher taxes (which is actually debt of a different kind). Do you seriously think we can keep accruing debt with no day of reckoning?

135 "We need more welfare and fewer jobs. Jobs for every American is doomed to failure..."  That albatross of a quote from Brown should be hung around the neck of every Democrat across the country. Follow up: "How are your actions such as your vote for Obamacare and extending unemployment benefits different from this statement?"

136 @Monty
@Empire of Jeff

My sock skills are clearly not up to par. I didn't mean to be taken seriously, although...you two did get hooked pretty quickly.

137 Explain how an increase in the labor pool will drive productivity. It's not linear, but more people = bigger economy. More people require more resources -- clothes, shoes, housing, cars, whatnot. Ergo more industry to sustain them. This is for a market-driven economy, mind you. And generally speaking, a bigger labor-pool implies more entrepreneurs, small businesses, investors, etc. There's a myth that productivity gains in the form of automation, computerization, efficiency of workflow, etc. reduce jobs for people, but historically, this is not true: technology tends to create far more jobs than it destroys. So a larger workforce + technological innovation = more productivity. Sometimes orders of magnitude more. It's a sad example, but think of the impact that the cotton gin had on cotton production in the south. Slavery was on the verge of dying out before the gin was invented because it wasn't efficient. But after the gin, it became profitable to keep hundreds of slaves in the field because the gin made the processing of raw cotton so much more efficient.

138 All over the web and and the WSJ they are reporting that the idiot Bernaky is saying that inflation is too low and wants the fed to "buy more bonds" (print more money).

What a load of lying horseshit. They are lying about the amount of inflation and they are lying about what it will take to reduce unemployment.

139 Hold on. That Jerry Brown quote is from 1995. That's fifteen years ago. Do you really want to be held accountable for the things you said when you were younger? /Christine O'Donnell supporter logic

140 I think it would be incongruous for a person whose spelling and grammar were as deficient as that exhibited by my previous comments to be sufficiently literate to distinguish between "principle" and "principal" and spelling and grammar, or to complete a single, self-referential sentence as long as this without a single error at all. ha ha ha mow MY lawn eggman coo coo ca choo     

141 Californian cities, or elsewhere as well?

The one that cones to mind immediately is Orange County. But there are probably others.

142 Vic - I've been hearing here in Washington for months; there is a class of "experts" that believes the debt load can be dealt with via inflation.

143

Do you really want to be held accountable for the things you said when you were younger?

Only if you haven't changed your mind.

144 there is a class of "experts" that believes the debt load can be dealt with via inflation Those "experts" are the Fed and Treasury honchos. The federal government has a really grotesque dilemma on its hands right now: you can't drive bond rates much below zero, and you can print boatloads of money but you can't force people to borrow it. So all that newly printed money is just sitting there -- not only not doing any good, but doing active harm (by debasing the existing currency). That's why gold is skyrocketing. The entire world is seeing the sovereigns' manipulation of currencies, and they don't like where it's leading us. So the world is once again moving to a de facto gold standard.

145 Vic - I've been hearing here in Washington for months; there is a class of "experts" that believes the debt load can be dealt with via inflation.

Posted by: Jean at October 15, 2010 09:44 AM (s5Foi)

Democrats have always believed that. Largely because up until fairly recently none of the taxes were indexed for inflation. Currently only the income tax is and if you artificially keep "stated inflation" low then you still get what you want. Constant tax increases without lifting a finger. 

But, time for the morning walk, it up to 57 already.

146 @ palin steele You need a comma after principal (before the close-quotation mark) and to eliminate the "and" following same. Nice try, shit-for-brains.

147 122-Monty-you hit the nail on the head. It's one reason we are hesitant to start a new business. 108-Jean, you have obviously enjoyed the intricacies of tonal language study. I'd share some of my more amusing stories of communicating as a gwailo, but I don't want to bore you, or anyone else. 145-more examples of brilliance.

148 ha ha Jerry Brown totally beat O'Donnell in that debate her witchcraft couldn't help. So what if he used salty language she can't name supreme court decisions who wants someone who is so politically uninformed. Why have idiots taken morons and no-nothings like her seriously

149 @148 lol we both know better

150

ha ha Jerry Brown totally beat O'Donnell in that debate her witchcraft couldn't help.

Well, in that case, California deserves what it gets. But woe unto them if they need to be bailed out by the rest of this country because they failed to fix what's ailing them.

Just saying...

151 NJConservative, that's some good sockpuppeting.

But it's coming in second to whoever is doing p-s.  That shit right there is black belt.

152 moki - my favorite method of communicating in tonal or mono-syllabic languages is the Ben Franklin method. I offer up a Ben Franklin, and somebody else learns English real fast.

153

Hutchs' theory on "fair"

"If life was fair, I'd have been dead a long time ago!"

154 I offer up a Ben Franklin, and somebody else learns English real fast.

Q.  What do a Mexican and a cue-ball have in common?


A.  The harder you hit 'em, the more English you get out of 'em.

155 Posted by: Monty at October 15, 2010 09:40 AM (4Pleu)

Growing market economies create productivity gains.

Agreed.

156 That shit right there is black belt. It's the lower-case stream-of-consciousness ranting with the occasional "lol" that does it. It's those little touches which turn a mere troll into a masterpiece of the trollistic art. I do note in passing that the dismissive "cons" or "wingers" sobriquets have now been abandoned almost universally in favor of "teabaggers". Which strikes me as odd, because as an insult it doesn't really sting much. I'd rather be the teabagger than the teabag-ee, if you take my meaning. But this is a problem with the nuttier leftists -- you really cannot tell any more if it's serious or satire. I can't tell if it's high comedy or really bad drama.

157 @153 HH ha ha you your just embarassed because Brown left O'Donnell speechless she didn't say a single word in the whole debate

158 Oh that rich.... Because of Bush... Americans were being over paid roflmao

159 Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at October 15, 2010 10:06 AM (5aa4z)

It is perfect. I especially like the alternating personalities; almost as if its mom was looking over its shoulder every now and then.

160 Great. I just raped a sock. Hate that. Haven't done that since Army days, well desperate times and all.

161 159, Ahh cop jokes - I wonder if Wyatt knows that one.

162 Commodities dumping.

Unless you like to eat.

163

Posted by: palin steele at October 15, 2010 10:14 AM (ATv6t)

Sorry, didn't see it. Again, if California wants to elect Brown as gov, fine. Just don't come crying to the rest of the country when they go bankrupt.

164 1) What Jerry Brown said sorta makes sense in dystopian future sci-fi way. Of course, poor people could perform services instead of working in factories, but let's get them on the government dole instead. 2) CA. NY, etc. will keep going along until they either get a Federal bailout, OR they run out of money. Right now, my mother, a loyal lib, is making strange sounds about illegal immigration, teacher salaries, the state's poor education results. Of course, she still basically believes in government and has no idea that the hidden regulations are 75% of the problem in Cali. As my barometer, this means we are getting closer. This election, CA will elect Democrats, hopefully. Then they can run it into the ground, or maybe, just maybe, Jerry Brown will try to become a Christie (hippy version.) Either way, since he allowed public sector unions to form, I would like to see his ass to be responsible for fixing it, or as a "teachable moment." You see, Californians have forgotten where the money for all those fine programs and regulations come from. Hint: its from business.

165 But this is a problem with the nuttier leftists -- you really cannot tell any more if it's serious or satire. I can't tell if it's high comedy or really bad drama.

Posted by: Monty at October 15, 2010 10:14 AM (4Pleu)

Oh, I think that's a big part of the pleasure of these exchanges. Occasionally I lean back and think to myself, "Is it really that stupid?" And then I chuckle!

166 a troll is just someone you disagree with and cant beat in a debate so you use insults. i bet O'Donnell called Brown a troll (but you wingnuts dont care about her salty language do you what hypocrites). At least my mom doesnt wear boots

167 "Equitable" (more correctly, equitability) is a preferred substitute for "fairness".

168

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo

Ok, I have to ask. Where did that 'nick come from? Or do I really want to know...

169 OR they run out of money There is no "or". They are out of money. Right now. They are, in fact, collossally in debt. And the hole gets deeper with every second that ticks by. Much of that debt is due to public-employee pensions and healthcare obligations going decades into the future. I don't really think there's anything California can do at this point to avert disaster, so in that sense it doesn't really matter who wins the governor's race. The endgame for California was written more than a decade ago -- it's just been a slow-motion trainwreck ever since Gray Davis dropped that pension bomb on everyone. And I'll repeat myself: the biggest danger is not at the state level, but at the municipal level. San Diego, San Francisco, LA, Sacramento, etc. are all broke and getting broker. The state can't go bankrupt, but cities sure the hell can. And when muni bond buyers get shafted because the city opts to pay off the unions instead...release the hounds.

170

a troll is just someone you disagree with and cant beat in a debate so you use insults.

Have I insulted you?

171 Forgive me, but I honestly don't know why Brown would be debating O'Donnell, as she is running in Delaware, and he is running in California.

172 Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks fluctuated as a measure of consumer confidence trailed forecasts, offsetting optimism that lower-than-estimated inflation data bolstered Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. BernankeÂ’s case that more monetary stimulus may be needed to safeguard the economy.


How can consumer confidence be down in this wonderful economy? Don't people know that the car is out of the ditch? It's up on blocks and the motor is shot but it's out of the ditch

173 Posted by: HH at October 15, 2010 10:25 AM (6oDXl)

Ace gave me some shit for a boring "nick," and used CharlieBrown'sDildo as an example of a better one (I guess). So I started to use it in honor of Ace's fascination with fantasy characters and sex toys. And because it is pretty good.

174

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo ( NJConservative) at October 15, 2010 10:30 AM (LH6ir)

(Laughs)

I like that...

175 How gay is Top Gun?

Yeah, THIS gay:

http://tinyurl.com/28ukkr9

176 So I started to use it in honor of Ace's fascination with fantasy characters and sex toys.

Concur.

177

Posted by: moki at October 15, 2010 10:28 AM (dZmFh)

Well in that case I missed a really great debate!

Sheesh, should have been paying attention.

178 I'm late to the party today, and have just read the Pearlstein article. Granted that my views may be skewed by my currently (un)employment status, but I'm getting damn sick and tired of people who have well-paying jobs yammering about how working folks are overpaid and, damnit, if we're going to compete with the Chinese we'll have to have $2/day jobs here.

They would feel abused if their employers cut them back to that level, but it's just peachy for the grubby working class.

I have some perspective on this, as I am/was doing what Pearlstien does, albeit in another field. Writing is a notoriously variable profession, pay-wise. The Big Guns make a decent living (or, in a few instances, more than decent) but there are plenty of us coolies out there pecking away at our keyboards who can't even afford to buy modest houses, much less all the luxury items that the nation is "over-consuming."

In the New Economy, we've seen our incomes dwindle or vanish, and we're supposed to nod our heads and say yeah, I was overpaid?

No, Monty, what we need is a little less focus on generating profit for paper-pushers who create nothing (that would be the stock-market leeches) and a little more equality of recompense for people who do the work. I'd take a $14/hour gig right quickly if I could find one; considering the unpaid downtime those in my profession deal with, it'd probably be a raise.

When I see multi-million-dollar bonuses going to executives of a firm that needed a gubmint bailout to survive, all I can think of is one single fact: I haven't grossed a single million scoots in 24 years in my profession (and I have something like 1500 articles out there to prove I know/knew what I was doing).

So, yeah, I'm biased, but I still say: fuck you, Pearlstein, and fuck all the rest of the fat-assed jerks who set themselves up as the arbiters of what "needs" to be done. What they want always comes at someone else's expense.

179 @177 moki that's why I said "she didn't say a single word in #162 and why in #151 the first letter from each word of the phrase "Why have idiots taken morons and no-nothings" spells "Whitman" if sock-rape were rape-rape youd all be doing 25-life

180 @176 no HH not you, Monty @161 and Herr called me that they hurt my feelings but only Monty raped me

181 "arcane symbology"  I believe it should read arcane symbolism.   Haven't our bloggers ever watched Boondock Saints?

182 No, Monty, what we need is a little less focus on generating profit for paper-pushers who create nothing (that would be the stock-market leeches) and a little more equality of recompense for people who do the work. I'd take a $14/hour gig right quickly if I could find one; considering the unpaid downtime those in my profession deal with, it'd probably be a raise. Look, if the argument is that there are lots of people who make a lot of money for doing not much, I agree. Baseball players pull down millions for playing a game for a couple of hours a day. Some popular musicians make tens (or hundreds) of millions on a song, while others toil for years playing in shitty bars and clubs and never make a profit at all. This is the problem with wages -- we're always happy to consider wage cuts for someone else, but have all kinds of reasons why we ourselves should not be subject to that cut. Wages are too high in aggregate. It's a simple math problem -- we either increase productivity to match what we're consuming, or we consume less (which drives wages down). We can not go on as we are -- it's not a choice, but an inevitable outcome. Remember: fair price isn't what you or I say it is; it's what the market says it is.

183

some dude (or dudette), standing in front of a punch-press all day has no business making $30 an hour.

you are right Monty

184 Shoey, if they sell the thing for $31 in less than an hour its pure profit get a clue. unions built America.

$31 is a lot of money. I paid more than that for my inflatable David Hasselhoff love doll.

185 some dude (or dudette), standing in front of a punch-press all day has no business making $30 an hour. I hasten to add that I have no beef with someone making a wage. You're worth what you can get. If you can get $100 an hour for washing dishes, more power to you. It's not about who "deserves" what they get paid -- I don't like using "deserves" in arguments over wages. You "deserve" whatever you can get. That's how the market works. But if the economy gets locked into a financial "arms race" in wages, it leads to a lot of inefficiency and debt. It's unmaintanable over the long term -- and since the economy is globalized, so are the wage-pressures. A plumber can continue to command a good wage because his job is not easily transferred in time or space; a computer programmer, journalist, or even day-laborer much less so. (If I can pay a neighbor kid $30 to mow my lawn, why would I pay a landscaping company $100 to do it?)

186 Actually, engineers, and visionaries "built" America. The unions didn't create any new ideas, designs for buildings or factories, businesses, products. Instead, they simply harnessed the individuals who performed tasks, some menial, and some quite intricate, and forced them to give up some of their hard-earned money to a central coffer, out of which union bosses dipped their pinky-beringed fingers, and told the underlings how to vote. The unions came up with a great shake-down, but individuals "built" America. But with unions in charge, individuals with ideas and ingenuity took their visions out of the US, and set up businesses in Indochina, China, Taiwan, the Philippines and Hong Kong (the dragons of the economic world) where they could have things produced with less regulation-which increased production price, and lower wages. As a result, Americans could buy cheap products, but at a loss to our own manufacturing jobs. Unions did some good things in the early days, particularly in the treatment of women and children, but they have morphed into the evil they thought they were trying to defeat. All good intentions have unintended consequences.

187 Wages are too high in aggregate. It's a simple math problem -- we either increase productivity to match what we're consuming, or we consume less (which drives wages down). We can not go on as we are -- it's not a choice, but an inevitable outcome.
Posted by: Monty at October 15, 2010 10:45 AM

On this we agree, Monty.

I'm not implying that I should get what Kobe Bryant gets; that would be an economy-buster for sure.

But I would sooner pay Kobe what he gets than, say, a GM or AIG honcho. At least the case can be made that Bryant is giving the Lakers a return for their investment.

"Consuming less" isn't a bad thing, IMO. I never spent beyond my income to get a McMansion, an Escalade or a "home theater." And I have never felt bad because I couldn't afford those things.

Bringing aggregate wages down doesn't mean dropping those at the low end of the curve to the point where they can't afford the basics of food and lodging, which Chinese wages would do in this country.

188 It's unfair that anyone be asked to mow lawns for money. That's what our mommies are for--to give us money and cook us dinner.

189

Posted by: palin steele at October 15, 2010 08:11 AM (ATv6t)

"The chickens don't make you work for the eggs, why are you trying to make someone your slave?"

My chickens make me work plenty for their eggs, moron.

1. I protect them from predators.

2. I make sure they have sufficient food and water.

3. I maintain and clean their coop regularly to prevent disease.

4. I pay for the vet and\or remove the sick\old from the flock.

In return, they give me enough eggs to share with family, friends and neighbors.

Let me guess, you'd just kill the chicken and have 1 meal instead of helping me take care of my flock to earn the eggs I'd be happy to share with you.

See this is a typical liberal. He'd rather take a bite of everyone else's piece of pie instead of making more pie, or help make a bigger pie.

190 why pay the kid $30 to mow if you can pay me with eggs

bring back the Egg Standard

Posted by: palin steele at October 15, 2010 11:04 AM (ATv6t)

You know, I've still got a barn full of pig shit that needs shoveled out.

191 MrScribbler: I think we're actually saying the same thing, just in different ways. When I say "wages are too high", I really mean that our economy has become dangerously asymmetrical -- the wages are not being allowed to seek their natural level. This is due to a lot of pressures: governmental regulations, unions, and consumer habits. China's $2/day worker will revolt if they can never get above $2 per day; that's why I always call the Chinese "miracle" a lie. Wages always rise when an economy improves -- the Koreans and Japanese found that out, and the Chinese will too. But even if the Chinese wage were to triple, it would still be far lower than the average American wage. America's average hourly wage would probably have to drop 20% or more to become competitive on the world economy. Maybe as much as 30%. This adjustment is going to happen, one way or another. We have chosen to inflate our currency, so even though your wage stays the same, you are *really* making about 15% less in real terms than you were last year. (The dollar is really getting clobbered in FOREX markets too, so your dollar-denominated investments are also getting hammered.)

192 [ehhhhhh. sock puppeting former trolls is lame. you're mucking up the thread with this shit. knock it off.]

193

Also last time I took my mouse to the vet I had to wait in front of a line of like 20 chickens

Heh...

Someone is having fun around here...

194 Hey Monty, Herr, Ace just banned me on the Reid/Angle thread can you put in a good word for me. He raped me a couple of weeks ago when I was Average Joe and though I have a tight ass it didn't even touch the sides, tell him that it if will help or I will not vote this November 2

195 Posted by: Monty at October 15, 2010 11:12 AM

Yes, we almost certainly are saying the same things.

And, like any self-respecting moron, I think the gubmint is at the core of the problems.

You can't have a healthy economy with ridiculous taxation, oppressive regulations, favoritism shown to the unproductive, and on and on. Nor is it right for those who do work to be forced to subsidize a permanent welfare class (by which I meant government bureaucrats and elected officials (and their minions) who are treated to a far better standard of living than they earn).

196

ha ha Jerry Brown totally beat O'Donnell in that debate her witchcraft couldn't help.

Jerry Brown's running for both Senator of Delaware AND Governor of California?

 

197 @202 Red Rocks, see comments 151, 162 and 185.

198

I have to disagree with Goldberg and Stein on the wage issue.

The problem is that we do not MAKE anything anymore.. not because of high wages, but because our Goverenment stops us from using our OWN resources (oil and gas for 100 Alex...).  Get Government out of the way of resource develpment.

Then Change the Tax system to a National Sales Tax, and get rid of all business taxes, and you will see American companies suddenly having a competitive advantage over foreign companies... they can't compete when their tax burden is higher than foreign companies, so change Where we take the Tax.... (it will also make it fairer, as rich people DO spend more money, but everyone will be taxed at the same rate).

THEN change the Stock Market, by forcing companies to hold a Stock for at least 24 hours before they can resell... and no short selling... Computer trading has changed the Market into Vegas, where you are just betting on whether somthing goes up or down short term... instead of a place for companies to raise investment capital.

These three things will bring an American economic resurgence...

 

199 "Perhaps the alien messages coming in through the fillings in my teeth are interfering with my thoughts. It's happened before, you know, until the doctors gave me tiny little capsules with alien-radio suppression nanobots in them. I swallow one capsule every day and the nanobots suppress the alien messages until their tiny little batteries run down. Nights are the worst. The aliens are big fans of the old Baretta television series, and insist on having long discussions with me on whether Rooster was a figment of Baretta's imagination. I insist that Rooster was simply a figment of Baretta's warped cop brain. No one ever spoke to Rooster but Baretta! They also say that Rooster was a pale (well, not pale, but you know what I mean) imitation of Starsky and Hutch's Huggy Bear, but that's a damned lie."

this is so priceless....

you reminded me of my two friends in middle school who kissed and locked braces....fun times....fun times....

btw, missed this post, saw only headline comments....what a treat to discover it....

can you tell me what's going to happen next?   I don't know whether to sell my stocks or not....I don't know whether to buy bonds or not....I don't know whether to buy gold or some other commodity or not...

I wonder what the DC insiders are doing....they would know right....as sharon angle says "how did you get so rich on a civil servant salary harry" and btw "man up"

200

Inflation isn't a problem (though it will be fairly soon, I think). Deflation is actually a bigger risk -- many retailers are having to drop prices just to move their inventory.
monty.

the fact that retailers are hasving to drop prices to move inventory tells anyone with half a brain  that wages are not too high.  It tells you that PRICES are too high.   If wages were too high retailers would have to increase their prices to keep inventory on the shelf.  

you want to increase demand you have to decrease prices.  So far companies  have kept profit margins up by decreasing supply and increasing prices.  this causes more and more individuals to be excluded from the marketplace.   Yes profit margins are kept but  its a negative feedback loop.   As supply is decreased more people are unemployed which means less demand which means more supply cuts and higher prices to keep those profit margins. 

 

To get the economy going compnaies must increase production drop prices.  their profit margins will take a hit but they should be able to sell more of the product  which will keep if not increase their profits.  

 

Deflation is what is needed.  GM should be selling cars at the lowest price they are able too while still making a slim profit.  the increase in sells will require them to hire which will make more demand as the new hires buy more cars and thus a positive feedback loop is formed. 

 

however the politicans do not want deflation because it would make dollars worth more which will cause countries like China to become more powerful and richer.  

 

this in a nutshell is why debt to other countries is bad.  It makes the ability to have deflation in your economy disappear and thus the free market can not function in the proper way to right an economy after a crash/recession

 

201

Posted by: unseen at October 15, 2010 12:02 PM (mQauu)

My problem is that the "inflation" number is currently deceptive, because of how they calculate it.

Becasue Housing prices are dropping, its counteracting all the other prices, which are going up (in the inflation index).... problem is that while House prices are dropping, Rent prices are going up... as there is more demand for the limited rental properties out there (as people loose their homes, they are forced to rent).

So many many people are paying more to live, yet they say there is no inflation...

202

So many many people are paying more to live, yet they say there is no inflation...

Posted by: Romeo13 at October 15, 2010 12:11 PM (AdK6a)

 

agreed.  the cost of living.  basic  food, fuel, rent etc are going up forcing  people to be able to buy less goods and services.   To sell those other goods and services companies will have to drop prices, raise wages, or restrict supply.   So far companies have opted for the restrict supply option causing more unemployment. 

 

some of that is due to governmental policy, fed,  debt management,  currency wars  etc.   But the economy will not get better until more people  can interact with the marketplace and that will not happen until prices drop or wages increase.

203 What exactly is going on with housing.  The go to housing girl on CNBC seems to be horrified yet is not really saying much.  All these banks suddenly stop foreclosures, is that a political move, just before the midterms to make people forget their financial troubles and vote the dems/libs back in or is there really a reason this is occurring?   I know some could not prove they owned the homes to foreclose but that couldn't be all these mortgages at all these banks.  Forgive me if monty put up a link explaining this, I can't link here so I have to ask.

204 Krugman: "Government spending has not increased in the past two years! It's all lies!"

Yeah Paul, that $1.4 trillion budget deficit last year - quite a jump from about $400 billion the previous year - just sprung up out of nowhere, just like the current $1.3 trillion deficit.

Fucking idiot.

205

Posted by: curious at October 15, 2010 12:22 PM (p302b)

 

In a nutshell when the banks sold the loans to fannie/freddie  fannie and freddie did not require the DEED of the home to be transfered.  So none knows who owns the deeds for these homes.

another Havard elite idea gone bad.   because you see paper deeds were so old school. 

 

 

206

Posted by: curious at October 15, 2010 12:22 PM (p302b)

What happened was that with the Derivative market, which bundled and sold Mortgages, no one really knows who owns which mortgages.  Some of these packages have been split up and sold numerous times... from the Origionator of the Loan, to Fannie or Freddie, who then bundled and sold them as investment vehicles...

Whole chain of legal ownership is in question...

Then add in what I see coming down the road, a Class Action suit asking why TARP was not used for its intended purpose (ie, buying up Toxic real estate assets), but instead became a big bank slush fund?.... TARP was passed under false pretenses... it was a blatant Bait and Switch... and someone, somewhere, will eventually be called to account for it.

207 Anyone pointed out yet that the link in "This is why "follow your dreams" is often really shitty advice. Remember, kids: It's not, "What do you want to do?". It's, "What are you able to do?" " goes to a 2009 story?

208 ...incest leads to retarded children.

That explains the existence of Paul Krugman, Chris Matthews, and Alan Grayson.

209 TARP was passed under false pretenses... it was a blatant Bait and Switch... and someone, somewhere, will eventually be called to account for it.

Posted by: Romeo13 at October 15, 2010 12:35 PM (AdK6a)

 

tha tis what Nov 2 is about.

210  So, Peter Schiff and Gerald Celente and Keiser and Roubini and even George Ure aren't crazy? (Well, they might be crazy, but apparently they were right.)

...and America isn't the exception to history and it can happen in America?

 More than one of you assholes owes me an apology...as soon as you sober up, that is.
 
(Google: A Reader's Resources on Systemic Collapse.)

211 If u want to lower wages for atheletes, musicians, actors... Don't go to sporting events, concerts, movies, or buy CDs/DVDs. As a side effect one's savings will increase. Bankers .. Don't invest . buy gold. Doctor's .. Don't go to the doctor. Eat healthy. Exercise. ... But of course the price is what it is so not sure what it means to say we "need" lower wages. I need a new car but etc -- Alternatively, there is always socialism, fascism, communism... --
I think I agree the minimum wage may have out lived its usefullness, just like unions. But unlike unions I think it's a minor issue. It is hard to believe Jerry Brown really said that quote - can we just start running ferries from CA to Europe - it would be cheaper. Why is that quote not in a Whitman ad? Or is CA sentiment that far gone. So boned it's silly. ---
meanwhile, still waiting for one sign, just one, that this country isn't going to crash n burn. It would be so nice - it is good to see people saving though (now, if we just had a consumption tax only and a budget clamped to previous year's revenue then the govt/deficit would track, and we could stop this fill-up-pool-with-water-from-other-side nonsense - the only real stimulus is for govt to shrink, not take as much. Period. Anything else is just a 3card monty shuffling of debt ponzi scheme steal grab from the yet unborn allowed by our cognitive dissidence ,media - layoff govt employees and that will increase labor supply therefore decrease cost/wages as desired in the post - this is actually already happening. the calculation is that a new (skilled) job now will earn 100s k less over decades than one pre-2008 - which sucks if u think about it). Unfortunately the collective stupidity seems near or above critical mass. And the lack of concern (redundant). If only wishful thinking and hope could be spun into gold and election victories - oh wait.
I smell a somewhat cutthroat horizon. There is no way out but suffering. But as we have been promised the sky it will not go over well. Aint nothing like a dose of hard reality - which liberals don't live in - which is why they are not our collective salvation, but our collective doom.

212 oh,Doooom