1 “Achieving long-term fiscal sustainability will be difficult,” Bernanke said today. “But unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, in the longer run, we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth.”

Translation, we want to raise taxes.

2 Cue Kevin Bacon: remain calm, all is well. Benron is nothing more than a well dressed, well moneyed hack. He's just doing what he's paid to do and saying what he's paid to say. He's either totally delusional or he knows this is all going to come crashing down before too long. Wouldn't surprise me if he has a Gulfstream idling on the tarmac somewhere close by at all times for when TSHTF.

3 "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet." Me too!

4 Facepalm.

5

"...strong commitment to fiscal responsibility..."

Three words:  Obama.  Pelosi.  Reid.

6

The new theory of progressive economics: If it's broke, do everything in your power to make sure that it's broke before even considering the possibility that something might be done to fix it.

I expect a Nobel nomination for this.  Just sayin'

7

I'm totally down with the continence thang.

Eh - chastity - not so much.

 

8 Must be some good acid in DC.

9 Whoa.  Sheila Bair is actually starting to see the problem.

http://is.gd/cITfz

Bair took aim at federal tax deductions for mortgage interest, local property taxes, and capital gains on house sales (in certain circumstances). She said these taxpayer subsidies for homeowners, taken together, "are about three times the size of all rental subsidies and tax incentives combined."

That's Fortune quoting Bair.  Here are here actual remarks.

http://is.gd/cITs6

Even as we emerge from this crisis, it is worth asking whether federal policy is devoting sufficient emphasis to the expansion of quality, affordable rental housing. It is estimated that when you add up the mortgage interest deduction, local property tax deductions, and exclusions on capital gains realized on the sale of owner-occupied housing ... the taxpayer subsidies for homeowners are about three times the size of all rental subsidies and tax incentives combined.

In fact, you can argue that this huge subsidy for homeowners has helped push up housing prices over time, making affordability that much more of a problem for the very groups you're trying to serve. I think we need a better balance. Sustainable homeownership is a worthy national goal. But it should not be pursued to excess when there are other, equally worthy solutions that help meet the needs of people for whom homeownership may NOT be the right answer.

I'd really love a seat at the next meeting between Bernanke, Geithner and Bair.

"Sheila.  Baby.  Pushing up housing prices is the design.  How else do you think we float this trillion ton fractional reserve system?"

10 The conference is being broadcast on C-SPAN right now, for the wonks in the audience.

11
Other than deceptive liar lip service, the democrat party doesn't know anything about "fiscal responsibility".

12 So who was beatified for inventing 'Depends'?

13

“But unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, in the longer run, we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth.”

Translation: Palin, Obamout. Get involved, kiddies, before it's too late...

14


Ben Bernanke is indeed incontinent.

He's full of shit and its spilling out of his oral orifice.

15
“Achieving long-term fiscal sustainability will be difficult,” Bernanke said today. “But unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, in the longer run, we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth.”

Vic said:  Translation, we want to raise taxes.


Indeed.  Since tax increase will kill-off economic incentive and hiring, the democrats will continue to raise our taxes in sneaky ways.  ie: the Health Care "reform" disaster, which is nothing but a tax increase, with assorted fees on steroids - (all hidden behind lofty unicorn rhetoric, or course)

16 Oh, tax increases are a given. It's absolutely guaranteed at this point. And I don't mean small hikes, either. The total tax burden on most citizens will probably rise nearly 15-20%. The problem is, that still won't be enough to cover the shortfalls. Never mind Federal debt for the moment; the combined city, county, and state debt, combined with unfunded entitlements (pensions, mostly) will require vastly higher tax-rates in coming years. This will in turn put a serious hurt on business growth, which in turn will kill hiring, which will in turn hurt employment, which will hurt tax-receipts.... It's a vicious spiral. The Dow could shoot up to 20,000 on shitty inflated fiat money and it won't matter a damn to the actual economy. That's why I always say that equities markets are mainly an indicator of investor mood, not a health-indicator for the real economy.

17 Other than deceptive liar lip service, the democrat party doesn't know anything about "fiscal responsibility". Posted by: Lemon Kitten at June 09, 2010 10:55 AM (0fzsA) Despite what my opponents might say to you, I can most certainly correctly pronounce "fickle reprehensibility".

18 ie: the Health Care "reform" disaster, which is nothing but a tax increase, with assorted fees on steroids - (all hidden behind lofty unicorn rhetoric, or course)

I saw something this morning where they said that bill added a 3.8% sales tax on all home sales now.

Wait until people see that. Imagine the average new U.S. house now going for around 300K. A 3.8% sales tax would be an $11,400 sales tax! (and it will only go up over time)

19 The total tax burden on most citizens will probably rise nearly 15-20%.

Is "most" the 51% who actually pays federal taxes?  Because 20% of $0 is still $0.

20
oh how I wish the Republicans had the balls to make a 30-second tv commercial with just this on the screen:

"Tired of Being Jerked Off?"
^{paid for by the GOfuckingP}

21 Bair is just setting up the next blowÂ… something like "True fiscal responsibility will mean taking out market distortions like the HOME INTEREST DEDUCTION on our taxes. We'll all have to pay a little more."

22 I'm feeling fiscally responsible, so I think I'll go out and buy a car even though I might lose my job any day now.

23

Does anyone know if they are going to end the policy of using property tax as a write off against taxes next year?

If so I'm going to try to pay off the old home as soon as possible.

24 19 The total tax burden on most citizens will probably rise nearly 15-20%. Is "most" the 51% who actually pays federal taxes? Because 20% of $0 is still $0. Posted by: HeatherRadish at June 09, 2010 11:06 AM (mR7mk) No?

25

Does anyone know if they are going to end the policy of using property tax as a write off against taxes next year?

If so I'm going to try to pay off the old home as soon as possible.

You pay property taxes whether your home is paid off or not.  You're thinking mortgage interest.

26 O/T: The lovely PAB is co-anchoring this segment of Fox right now.

27 I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

28 Bush's tax cut will sunset at the end of this year, yes?

29 As for the tax increases, that depended entirely on what happens in Nov. if we get the House it will not happen.

30 Is "most" the 51% who actually pays federal taxes? Because 20% of $0 is still $0. That's not strictly true. In fact, poorer people may not pay much in federal taxes, but they get disproportionately burned on local taxes -- consumption taxes, sales taxes, and licenses and fees costs. (Remember, to cities and counties, "fee" is just another way of saying "tax", except that you don't have to go to the voters.) That's one of the reasons that modern liberalism, with it's concern for the so-called "little guy", is so stupid. Their policies end up hurting the very people they claim to be concerned for, disproportionately so. In my area, the school district is already crying that they're going to have to lay off teachers and put off building a new school -- all this in preparation for a new tax levy. But voters are in no mood for this endless game of educational blackmail, and I suspect that they're going to tell the teacher's unions to take a fucking hike.

31 It's getting to the point that I can't handle much more of a tax burden.  Between California and the feds the pain is unbearable.  I'm reading to chuck it move to Texas or Nevada and play poker for a living.

32 Certain liberal constituencies have been railing about the mortgage interest and local property tax deductions for years as being inherently racist, "reverse redlining", and not progressive.

33 Bush's tax cut will sunset at the end of this year, yes?

Some of them. The ones for lower income people were extended by the Dems.

The ones I like, like the "qualified dividends" were not.

34

Does anyone know if they are going to end the policy of using property tax as a write off against taxes next year?

If so I'm going to try to pay off the old home as soon as possible.

You pay property taxes whether your home is paid off or not.  You're thinking mortgage interest.

yes as soon as i typed that i realized the error.

i meant to say interest on the mortgage

35 Vic @ 29 -- beware the lame duck session, they could slam through all kinds of shit.

36
I saw something this morning where they said that bill added a 3.8% sales tax on all home sales now.

Wait until people see that. Imagine the average new U.S. house now going for around 300K. A 3.8% sales tax would be an $11,400 sales tax! (and it will only go up over time)

-----
We have no idea the level of deception written into the Democrat's bills.  I say it all the time, but Democrats L I V E to tax.  They don't care if it kills the economy.  They don't care if it kills hiring, jobs, incentive, tax receipts into the treasury.  They don't care.  The progressive socialist redistribution welfare state is the Democrat goal.  It's not that popular, so they smother it in lies and hide it in their legislation.

37 Been watching Uncle Benny on CNBS when they dane to go in and show it.  Paul Ryan was excellent but this is so complicated it feels as though none of them fully understand all aspects.   Was funny to hear uncle benny essentially say that he doesn't understand "gold" and that other so called commodities are down.

The funniest thing is Beck talking about the HIV bombs and demanding that we start bacon bombs.  If Beck isn't a moron I'd be surprised.

38 they get disproportionately burned

Monty you are using the "progressive rhetoric". If both people pay 10% sales tax how is that "disproportionate"?

39 I don't believe anything said by anyone associated in any way with the Federal government. If I weren't already broke I'd be ditching all investments. It really is time to hunker down and focus on survival for a few years.

40

Art Laffer had it right the other day. When the tax hikes hit in 2011, including a Capital Gains tax rate that more than doubles, we are all screwed. The problem is not consumption, it's lack of investment. Lack of consumption is merely a symptom.

Does anyone know if they are going to end the policy of using property tax as a write off against taxes next year?

If so I'm going to try to pay off the old home as soon as possible.

I think you mean mortgage interest. But you are so correct. So many people built their lives around the real estate tax shelter, that if the Demunists yank that away, the foreclosure rate will go even higher, which, of course the Commiecrats and their media apparatchiks will try to blame on the banks.

41 Let's see.  Just about every state is in a budget crisis of one sort or another.  50-50 if it will be tax increases (that will help the economy, won't it?) or service cuts (we'll see how many start acting like the Greeks).  In the mean time, tax revenues decrease because of job loss.  And the private sector is not hiring because they're still looking at the long haul, and are anticipating even more "help" from Barry and Company in the form of higher taxes and expensive regulations.

What planet is Ben on?

42 We need a flat tax that everyone pays, period.

43
An Obama National Deficit Commission member says:

"America needs a 21st century economic plan because we now know the market-worshipping, privatizing, de-regulating, dehumanizing American financial plan has failed and should never be revived, worshipping the market again . . . It has failed America and everyone that works here,"

44 It's getting to the point that I can't handle much more of a tax burden. Between California and the feds the pain is unbearable. Pain now guaranteed to continue in Clownifornia until the heat death of the universe. We passed the open primary measure. Open primaries. It's Demotards and RINOs all the way to the cosmological horizon.

45 Monty you are using the "progressive rhetoric". If both people pay 10% sales tax how is that "disproportionate"? Only that in absolute numbers, a poor person pays a higher percentage of their income for the same product than a wealthier person. It's not a values-weighted statement. If I only have $20 to my name, a $3 cheeseburger is disproportionately more expensive to me than to a fellow who has $100. It does not (or should not) confer any moral difference between the two people. And I dislike this endless rodomontade about what words are "liberal" or not. Fuck that noise right in the ear. Words have specific meanings, and I try to be careful how I use them. I used the word correctly in this case.

46

An Obama National Deficit Commission member says:

"America needs a 21st century economic plan because we now know the market-worshipping, privatizing, de-regulating, dehumanizing American financial plan has failed and should never be revived, worshipping the market again . . . It has failed America and everyone that works here,"

Great, the 21st century is going to look exactly like the 20th century.

 

47 oh, they are already to the "blaming the bush administration" part of the program.  In response to the loaded question, Uncle ben did not hit it out of the park.  Sad how politics intrudes into facts.

48 @45 I sure can crank it out, can't I? You people can't stop me.

49 In fact, poorer people may not pay much in federal taxes, but they get disproportionately burned on local taxes

Yeah, I understand that...I like to make fun of people who advocate a soda tax to fight Teh Obesity but refuse to tax frappacinos--poor people drink more Pepsi than latte.

But local taxes aren't going to do squat to clear up federal debt.

50 "If I weren't already broke I'd be ditching all investments." That didn't come out right. I mean to say that all financial instruments look like sucker bets to me. I'm still trying to invest in very simple, tangible, utilitarian things. Like canned goods, ammunition, and gardening tools.

51 But I can't count. I meant @46, not Monty.

52

OT

Now I'm no fan of Jon Stewart, but apparently in Soviet Amerika, Ass Kicks You!

53 At least I paid lip service to continence and chastity. But talk about profligacy... You guys in the 21st century are worse than an amphitheater of sweaty Athenians during grape harvest.

54 Posted by: Ben at June 09, 2010 11:21 AM (wuv1c)

that is an awfully concerning statement for someone to be making....
sounds very anti capitalism and that is not good

55 Hindenburg Helicopter Ben
FIFY.

56 You know, this new concept of life under socialism looks to be pretty exciting! http://tinyurl.com/2f6vof7 Like living in the good ole days - horses, wagons, frontier medicine. Too cool! via Instapundit

57 But local taxes aren't going to do squat to clear up federal debt. Yeah, but the feds can default on their debt if they have to -- the states can't. Most are Constitutionally bound to have a balanced budget, and since they can't print money, the only alternative is...taxes, baby. And cutting services. California, New York, and other cash-strapped states are going to have a horrible environment where taxes are going to skyrocket at the same time that services are being cut. So most people are going to be paying (a lot!) more for (a lot!) less. Unfortunately, because this is a political as much as an economic issue, people will elect politicians who will continue kick the can down the road until they run out of road. The The Humongous will take control and impose his own rough discipline on the Wasteland.

58
RE:  Bair

Anyone who says anything about "groups you're trying to serve" has no leg to stand on to talk about "market distortions."

Even McCartney's ex has a leg up on her.  Dumbass Bair isn't even fit to work in a brewery, making hops.

59

49 In fact, poorer people may not pay much in federal taxes, but they get disproportionately burned on local taxes

Yeah, I understand that...I like to make fun of people who advocate a soda tax to fight Teh Obesity but refuse to tax frappacinos--poor people drink more Pepsi than latte.

But local taxes aren't going to do squat to clear up federal debt.

that's a great point. whenever i am in "poorer" neighborhoods on trash day, i see their recycling can overflowing with soda cans.  Soda, cigarettes, fast food and other taxes like that disproportionately hurt the lower middle class.

You don't see extra taxes on Bentleys, caviar and toast points, champagne,  or other things that wealthy people use.

All of these democrat tax ideas hurt their  so-called constituency.

That is why the argument i hate the most from the left is when they claim the white working class people who vote republican are voting against their own economic interests.

 

As for local taxes, mine aren't too bad at 1.3%, its my property taxes that are too high.

60 from thehill.com today Democrats on President Barack Obama’s financial commission are considering the wisdom of permanent tax breaks such as the mortgage deduction and corporate deferral. Calling them “tax entitlements,” senior Democratic lawmakers have argued they should be on the table for reform just like traditional entitlement programs Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid.... A Brookings-Urban Tax Policy Center study found that the mortgage interest tax break costs more than $100 billion annually but does little to encourage the middle class and less wealthy to buy homes. “I’m not sure that we need to subsidize homeownership at all through the tax system,” said Eric Toder, the study’s lead author. Nota bene. "...the mortgage interest tax break costs more than $100 billion annually..." Costs whom? The ass-raping hasn't even begun, folks. Futures on broom handles are up.

61 something like "True fiscal responsibility will mean taking out market distortions like the HOME INTEREST DEDUCTION on our taxes. We'll all have to pay a little more."

That tax deduction does artificially inflate the value of your home.  Like, say I need to deduce my tax liability.  All I need is a preapproved interest only mortgage to buy your house.  Then I just pay the interest to close my tax window a little more.  I really have no interest in housing, but I gotta dodge those taxes baby.  So I'll take whatever the IRS is handing out.

62 Sockpuppets take revenge.

63 Bair is right about the mortgage deduction subsidy, but she just can't extend that same thinking to rent subsidies.  Hmmm...wonder why?  Not really.

Also PAB breasts are particularly well defined today, I think that is what is lifting the markets, its as good as any other theory.

64

Yeah, but the feds can default on their debt if they have to -- the states can't. Most are Constitutionally bound to have a balanced budget, and since they can't print money, the only alternative is...taxes, baby. And cutting services.

Monty, can't county's declare bankruptcy? didn't Vallejo in california just do that?

Wouldn't that be a genius way to get out of all of those sweet union contracts and put the county on a footing to renegiotiate those contracts now when popularity of public sector unions is at an all time low?

 

65 without the mortgage tax deduction a lot of people will go under.

66

something like "True fiscal responsibility will mean taking out market distortions like the HOME INTEREST DEDUCTION on our taxes. We'll all have to pay a little more."

That tax deduction does artificially inflate the value of your home.  Like, say I need to deduce my tax liability.  All I need is a preapproved interest only mortgage to buy your house.  Then I just pay the interest to close my tax window a little more.  I really have no interest in housing, but I gotta dodge those taxes baby.  So I'll take whatever the IRS is handing out.

huh. i never understood why people got an interest only loan. i guess that make some sense.

67 Quick rant - This 'compassion" construct that this country adopted with respect to people in lower income brackets not having to pay income tax is bullshit, imo. It is hard for people to care very much about this country and its future when they have no skin in the game. Why should they. They will just automatically vote for people who will perpetuate their continued dependence on others and live their lives with no hope or desire for bettering themselves. The progressive tax model that created this is little more than welfare under a different name and it winds up enslaving people. And, btw, that doesn't mean that I accept our current taxation model - I don't. It is unfair, unworkable and it contributes to our current butt load of economic problems. There! I feel better now.

68 On local taxes -- one of the reasons I've in favor of a consumption-based tax rather than an income-tax is because it's discretionary. I can choose whether to pay more or less in taxes by moderating my consumption. We might even exclude commodities like food and clothing from such a tax to avoid overburdening the poor. The problem is that a VAT (or whatever such a consumption-tax is called) would be larded in addition to the income-tax, not in place of the income-tax. Also, VATs are notorious for creeping up over time, because the effect is gradual and incremental (and largely hidden from public view). But pols love the VAT because it represents a huge, wide river of money -- so I expect to see a push for some variant of the VAT in the months and years ahead.

69

Pain now guaranteed to continue in Clownifornia until the heat death of the universe.

Not heat death, but rather I expect LA and SF / Caliphony to explode in a supernova of riots first, leaving a Detroit and Flint / Michiganish cinder behind.

70

"Tired of being Jerked Off not receiving the goddamn common courtesy of a reach around?"
^{paid for by the GOfuckingP}

FIFY

71 That tax deduction does artificially inflate the value of your home.

Yes.  Like all tax deductions, it all came out in the wash a long time a go.

Like just about every form of meddling social engineering, it was a stupid idea that has distorted the market.  The market made this distortion its new normal, and that's where we've been since then.

Pull that deduction away, and prices will crash proportionately.  There is no $100Bn.

72 the feds can default on their debt if they have to -- the states can't. Most are Constitutionally bound to have a balanced budget, You evidently don't understand our New Era. Look up Newspeak and my name. It's very simple. Clownifornia has already issued IOUs to its creditors, and the world didn't stop. Just magnify that effort by ten and voilà, you have a de facto state currency. Clownifornia even passed some law or measure that forced banks to accept IOUs as payment. And don't worry, if the IOU strategy becomes threadbare, gubmint will invent another. We never sleep.

73

without the mortgage tax deduction a lot of people will go under.

also, i'm sure a lot of people, who have the means, will just pay off their house as soon as possible and the companies that were hoping to earn all that interest money will be SOL.

74

Nota bene. "...the mortgage interest tax break costs more than $100 billion annually..." Costs whom?

Exactly. When getting less tax taken out of one's hide by behaving in certain ways is defined as "spending" by the Demunist Commiecrats, it's revealing.

75 Fuck that noise right in the ear.

Monty,

May I use this phrase in polite conversation?

I really like it.

76 Monty, can't county's declare bankruptcy? didn't Vallejo in california just do that? Municipalities can; I don't think that counties can, at least not everywhere. It varies according to the state consitutions. Even it's academic, even so: the state is responsible for the county's operations, so if the county goes broke the state is on the hook. Municipalities are different since they operate according to a charter, but in effect even municipalities are wards of the state they are in. "Bankruptcy" is simply a legalism to allow the municipality to cast off debt and re-negotiate contracts. It's not remotely the same as a business or individual bankruptcy.

77 senior Democratic lawmakers have argued they should be on the table for reform just like traditional entitlement programs Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid....

Since when have those programs ever been on the reform table? Democrats can go die in a fire.

78
May I use this phrase in polite conversation?

Love to be a fly on the wall for THAT 'polite conversation'.

79 Man, my spelling and grammar really suck today.... I need a spell-checker before I post.

80

@monty 68

That is where we are stuck at. Many conservatives and libertarians would love to have the Consumption tax to the current income tax, but there is no way we can add one and eliminate the other.

If i remember correctly, the 16th amendment in 1916 made the income tax permanent. So in order to get rid of it you would have to repeal the amendment which would mean another amendment requirng 66 percent of the votes in the house, senate and the presidents signature.

That will never happen. What will happen is the government will tell us if we allow a VAT or consumption tax, that they will get rid of the income tax. Only we all know they will never  do that.

We really are f*cked.

81 In an LSD induced stupor, not one of us could invent a more fucked up system than our 2500 page tax code designed to enhance the elite who write campaign checks. It is without doubt, the most unwieldy and complex piece of garbage ever conceived. That Warren Buffett himself pays less taxes than his secretary as a percentage- is proof positive of who the beneficiaries are.

A scaled flat tax, with no refunds and deductions, applied uniformly up and down all taxpaying strata would be far more efficient and simple. Heaven forbid, they attempt something so radical as a simple and understandable with holding system. The accountant  and tax attorney lobby would have a shit fit.

Bernanke is a pointy head bureaucrat carrying political water.

82

"Bankruptcy" is simply a legalism to allow the municipality to cast off debt and re-negotiate contracts. It's not remotely the same as a business or individual bankruptcy.

right, but can't they use that to re-negotiate the very things that are bankrupting them, public sector contracts?

83 and taxed companies on receipt of those IOUs as if they were cash.

84 @77 Indeed, the tone of that hill.com article was so otherworldly as it discussed the ultimate tanking of the housing market. A mortgage interest deduction does incentivize paying for a home with a loan. But the point here is the suggestion is just another way to take money out of your pocket and put it into someone else's by taking away your deduction. It is not a subsidy, and not a tax credit.

85 O/T -- Zero's new logo.  Scroll down.  http://tinyurl.com/27t7qfe

86 The progressive tax model that created this is little more than welfare under a different name and it winds up enslaving people.

The founders knew this 250 years ago.  The 16th amendment undermined the protections baked into The Constitution.

It's been all over but the crying since 1913.

87 If i remember correctly, the 16th amendment in 1916 made the income tax permanent. So in order to get rid of it you would have to repeal the amendment... That will never happen. As in, proton decay will happen before the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

88 I really have no interest in housing, but I gotta dodge those taxes baby.  So I'll take whatever the IRS is handing out.

It makes no sense unless you actually want to own the asset.  Paying $1k in interest so you will pay $360 less in taxes isn't a winning strategy.

89

I would have no problem with the income tax if it was used as it was orignally devised.  As a way to pay for war.  If i am correct in my understanding of history, it was created in 1862 to help fund the unions war effort and eliminated in the 1870s after reconstruction was winding down.

 

90

"[Bernanke] seems to think that consumer spending (with borrowed money) will somehow pull the economy out of the doldrums."

Bernanke says: "unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility..."

 

This guy has a job and we have more unemployed than the entire population of Canada?  Fucking surreal.

91 “Achieving long-term fiscal sustainability will be difficult,” Bernanke said today.

Sure as fuck will be, Benny. When you're in cahoots with a small army in Washington hell-bent on the utter annihilation of the private sector, you're never gonna see it. Fuckin' commies.

92 Only that in absolute numbers, a poor person pays a higher percentage of their income for the same product than a wealthier person. It's not a values-weighted statement.

Whether or not it involves sex with the auditory canal that is still the rhetoric that the progressives have always used for justifying why joe rich guy should pay 50% of his income in taxes while Sam only pays 10%.

93 How about a compromise - a small VAT for the end of withholding? Within 2 election cycles, every politician from an economically functional district will be a fiscal conservative - regardless of party, abortion, gay marriage, guns, etc.

94

and taxed companies on receipt of those IOUs as if they were cash

 

are you kidding???

i didn't know that.

please someone explain to me how you can run a business in california? how is it even possible?

95 Hey Bernanke, in order for consumer spending to have any effect, we have to have some extra $$$ to spend first, after paying debt, taxes, and general overhead. Do you understand that, or did you get your diploma from Moneyontrees University?

96 no, it seems to me that by "fiscally difficult" big ben is saying: you guys better bite the bullet and start raising taxes and/or cutting programs - big time.

97 huh. i never understood why people got an interest only loan. i guess that make some sense.

Our issue is excessive debt.  To redress this wound we must focus on the mechanisms that beg citizens to take on more debt.  Many of these tax deductions are explicitly designed to induce citizens to take on more debt.

98

Even better compromise.

The government should abolish the withholding method and in order to collect it, your local elected official has to come to your house at the end of every year with a giant burlap sack with a dollar symbol on the front. And it has to be all in cash.

i'm sure taxes would be voted down immediately

99 In an LSD induced stupor, not one of us could invent a more fucked up system than our 2500 page tax code designed to enhance the elite who write campaign checks. It is without doubt, the most unwieldy and complex piece of garbage ever conceived.

Ten monkeys, ten days.

100 please someone explain to me how you can run a business in california? how is it even possible?

Be an S&M lover?

101 #94  please someone explain to me how you can run a business in california? how is it even possible?

#100  Be an S&M lover?

Have a hell of a lot of political connections?  Prodigious use of illegal aliens for labor?  Cheat on the taxes?

/I haven't a bloody clue either.

102 It makes no sense unless you actually want to own the asset.  Paying $1k in interest so you will pay $360 less in taxes isn't a winning strategy.

I do want to own the asset.  In fact, I even want that asset to lose value.  I'll get another tax deduction.

"The ownership society" can be counterfeited.  It doesn't matter if it is homes or stocks.  You can counterfeit these assets using the regulatory agencies against the citizenry.

103 Best compromise; A 10% tax on ALL forms of income regardless of source and amount and a law that requires the government to not spend more than that 10% during any year unless there is a declared war. .

104 rick santelli is on fire today.  He is right, people aren't' going to be happy if they talk more about a VAT tax than about cutting spending.

What will be the point of trying to earn more money if they are just going to take it away anyway, that isn't good for this country.  More and more people will opt into the government cheese group.

105 right, but can't they use that to re-negotiate the very things that are bankrupting them, public sector contracts? It depends on the state. California's judges have said that Pension benefits are constitutionally protected and cannot be changed once vested. I'm not sure that's the case in all states, but it's probably true for most of them. It's like student-loan debt -- you can't get rid of it even in a bankruptcy. That being said: nothing is ever absolute. If the situation gets dire enough, the constitution can be amended to change the rule. Unions would howl, but private taxpayers will not suffer in silence forever.

106 31 It's getting to the point that I can't handle much more of a tax burden.  Between California and the feds the pain is unbearable.  I'm reading to chuck it move to Texas or Nevada and play poker for a living.

I'd bid the NE corridor adieu immediately if I could , despite the pretty and relatively secluded place I'm at now.

107 Bernanke never states his opinion. Ever. He is completely devoid of personal courage just like his boss.

Do you ever hear Bernanke mention  the extraordinary debt levels as any cause for concern? Fuck no, that would piss off his narcissistic boss. He knows what happens when you don't carry the boss' water.

He spins ever thing optimistic and soft. Hey, you don't get to be Man of the Year by talking tough and doing hard things. That pisses off too many people. The path to personal glory for Nobel Peace Prizes and Men of the Year, is feel good fuzzy speech. Talk, talk, talk. Do nothing. Retire. Collect checks.

108 103 Best compromise; A 10% tax on ALL forms of income regardless of source and amount and a law that requires the government to not spend more than that 10% during any year unless there is a declared war. .

Cut? Jib?  Newsletter?

/But what about the "war" on drugs, the "war" on cancer, the "war" against war...

109

Best compromise; A 10% tax on ALL forms of income regardless of source and amount and a law that requires the government to not spend more than that 10% during any year unless there is a declared war. .

I could go for that on a federal level and on cap gains, but then what about state, local, etc.

Our biggest problem is and will always be spending.

A balanced budget amendment that does not allow for tricks or loopholes would be nice. Even in a time of war. If we deem war to be so necessary, then we surely can cut other things back to stay under budget.

110 Our biggest problem is and will always be spending. Yep. I'd rather have a $1 trillion government with $1 trillion in debt than a $2 trillion government with no debt at all.

111 It seems states should go through their form of "bankruptcy" and "renegotiate" unfunded, outrageous pensions.  Illinois had its credit rating lowered, and floating more bonds will become more and more difficult. 

States can look to get bailed out by the federal gov', but will sacrifice control (which has been ongoing anyway).  But if the insolvent states commit "suicide" by outrageous tax increases, they will only bring in less revenue and chase away business, or kill it.

I'm not sure if the state can just start confiscating private citizens assets via various taxes ... but that seems the only alternative to fed bailouts.  Helicopter Ben can print the money as the buy control of state powers, which is in essence stealing the money from under your mattress, as the currency is debased.

All Obama's unicorns need to be rounded up and shot, along with many older ones.    End the entitlement parade and throw the bums out.  Maybe that is what HeliBen means by "fiscal responsibility".  But his lower interest rate stance indicates he wants to continue to punish savers and enrich his billionaire banker pals.

112 SOCIALISM!

113 If they manage to get a VAT through before the Republicans take over congress you can kiss this country goodbye permanently.

History has shown that increasing taxes in this country never does any good. Every time the Dems passed a tax increase, for every $1.00 of increase they passed they spent a $1.50. 

If they pass the VAT within a year we will be Europe and within another 5 years we will be 1960s vintage USSR.

114 California's judges have said that Pension benefits are constitutionally protected and cannot be changed once vested.

Those robed cocksuckers should ask King Canute how that worked out for him.

115

 It's getting to the point that I can't handle much more of a tax burden.  Between California and the feds the pain is unbearable.  I'm reading to chuck it move to Texas or Nevada and play poker for a living.

I'd bid the NE corridor adieu immediately if I could , despite the pretty and relatively secluded place I'm at now.

Speaking of which. I ordered all sorts of ink and toner for my printers from a Texas company. It was probably 20 percent less than any other competitor. I thought, hey i got a great deal.  About a year later i get a piece of mail from the PA Dept of Revenue saying i owe them money for a "Use Tax".  I'm sure some of you are familiar with it, but i am young and didn't know about it. Apparently if you buy a product from a state without sales tax, you do in fact have to pay sales tax to your own state, even though Pennslyvania didn't produce the ink and toner, didn't sell me the ink and toner, did absolutely nothing. But they still are entitled to that money.   I was so pissed.

Is this common in every state?

116 35 Vic @ 29 -- beware the lame duck session, they could slam through all kinds of shit.

Posted by: Jean at June 09, 2010 11:15 AM (tTdaQ)

Exactly... lets say we pick up 70-90 seats.. what the heck will dems have to lose by passing cap and tax, immigration.. and all the other dem shit before January?

117

I think this thread needs to borrow the pic of Obama being pulled along by his dog from JWF.

(Of course, I'm going to say that about every thread today til one of the cob loggers posts it, thereby causing Ace to put up a thread about it.)

118 Apparently if you buy a product from a state without sales tax, you do in fact have to pay sales tax to your own state Hah! A virgin got his "commerce clause" cherry busted!

119 Is this common in every state?

It is now, didn't use to be. The Supremes ruled long ago that States could not be taxed "out of State" with sales tax, so they changed it to a use tax. 

120 A mortgage interest deduction does incentivize paying for a home with a loan. But the point here is the suggestion is just another way to take money out of your pocket and put it into someone else's by taking away your deduction. It is not a subsidy, and not a tax credit.

What is the point?  Home ownership serves dual purposes.  One, I get a home.  Two, the bank gets capital that qualifies as reserves.

The bank can either accept a down payment up front to pad its capital reserves or it can take less up front through an inflated sale price with a credit worthy borrower maximizing all the tax deductions.  However, if I'm the bank I don't really care if they take the deductions and studies show that most mortgage holders don't take the deduction.

Now consider another factor.  Your population is barely replacing itself.  That's not good for the bank.  It needs to keep growing capital.  It needs something to walk in to borrow capital.  From where would you get this something?  I know.  Fuck over the family structure so instead of a couple borrowing together you have two divorced borrowers or never gonna marry single borrowers.

Can't fuck over the family structure.  That's a lot of work.  Well, just import borrowers.  They have to break the law to get here?  Oh well.  Fuck the law.  The bank needs borrowers.  Come on down Mexicans.  There's work here that nobody will do that secretly we know is depressing wages for low skilled citizens.

It's too bad the UK is going to get slammed over the next 6 months.  They've recognized the problem.  Too much debt and the breakdown of the family.  The banksters will do everything they can to make them pay for it.

121 Fuck Lord Humongous. He'll have the same choice to make as everyone else in the wastelands:

1. Take Jeff's hand and swear eternal loyalty.

2. Taste the jackboot.

122 I see the public employee unions lost in their bid to undermine the Repubs in Orange Co. (S Nelson beat H Sidhu)

123 Ben, you nailed it earlier. Instituting a VAT or flat tax as a revenue source will only work out if the income tax and a couple of other taxes get nixed first. Otherwise it's just added revenue burden, and a heavy one at that. Federal tax we pay once, maybe four times a year. VAT would hit us at the gas station, the supermarket, the restaurant, the mall....

124 124 I see the public employee unions lost in their bid to undermine the Repubs in Orange Co. (S Nelson beat H Sidhu).

Awesome!  There might be some hope for Cali after all...

/Not really, especially if Gov Moonbeam returns.

125 Best compromise; A 10% tax on ALL forms of income regardless of source and amount and a law that requires the government to not spend more than that 10% during any year unless there is a declared war. .

The problem is that it will take an act of Congress to implement it. A later Congress could simply repeal it.

126 what the heck will dems have to lose by passing cap and tax, immigration.. and all the other dem shit before January?

Well, how much value do they place on being alive?  I'd wager if they did attempt to ram through these measures their homes wouldn't last a week.

127

Laffer's article in the WSJ was VERY scary.  It is a must read.

California's elections results last night were disappointing.  The voters gave themselves no solutions with this one.

128 #116  Is this common in every state?

That sucks, but I'd guess that's common for states to do regarding sales tax.  They'll screw you in the end.

129

Hahaa, The Reality of Unemployment. 

130 Ben said the day before to expect funemployment to remain high for quite a while. Barry's economic golden age is truly upon us

131

Posted by: Something Wicked This Way Comes... at June 09, 2010 11:55 AM

Who do you think Ben's boss is?

132

History has shown that increasing taxes in this country never does any good. Every time the Dems passed a tax increase, for every $1.00 of increase they passed they spent a $1.50. 

Ah, so true. Anyone else remember the so called peace dividend? Yes, right after the old Soviet Union fell (well, honestly, it decided to take a nap before Putin came back to power), everyone was running around proclaiming that the United States could cut its defense spending and we would have that extra money to focus on domestic needs. No one talked about retiring the debt. The problem was, there was, at the end, about 100 billion in savings and about 300 billion in new spending.

Or, as Pete Starks would say, good, solid economic growth, baby!

right. we should have and did cut military spending, we didn't need an army that size as a ground war between russia and us in Europe was inconceivable at that point, however the money that was cut should have paid down debt. we would be in a lot better situation had we done so.

133 Apparently if you buy a product from a state without sales tax, you do in fact have to pay sales tax to your own state, even though Pennslyvania didn't produce the ink and toner, didn't sell me the ink and toner, did absolutely nothing. But they still are entitled to that money.   I was so pissed.

Now that is shitty.  The costs to deliver your goods were paid for by the deliverer of the goods.  They paid the turnpike fees.  The air transport firm paid the landing fees.

134 BTW, as a historical aside I should tell you all that the real cause of the breakup of the Western Roman empire in the 4th & 5th centuries was a continuous series of wars and uprisings brought on by inflation and high taxation. Peasant rebels called bacaude ran through much of Gaul, while in Britain several generals told their troops that pay raises and living benefits would be increased after they got to wear the purple. The emperors in Rome brought in barbarian mercenaries to smash the bacaude and defeat the generals from Britain. then the barbarians, garrisoned on the populace, took over their districts and the emperors couldn't do anything. Even worse, the civilians welcomed barbarian rule since the barbs took less than half of what Rome had been taking as taxes. The last emperor in Rome was a boy whose "teleprompter" was a goad held by a German mercenary.  

135 My idea, and I realize that there are some constitutional issues with this (not to mention that this might not be the moment to implement this) is there must be a balanced budget every year.  If congress presents a balanced budget, fine.  If not the president has line item veto power and must exercise it until the budget is balanced.  That way if congress matures, they can control spending, if not, the president must.

136 ben @ #98 -- I prefer an IRS Form, to which a check is attached. That form is hand delivered at the polling station or attached to your ballot when returned by mail. Solves both voter id and spendy politician problems.

137 "unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, in the longer run, we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth.” Mission accomplished! Karl Marx would be so proud...

138 Everything's fine!  No really!  We're doing just GREAT!  Why look at all the jobs created last month!  Who cares if they were just Census jobs, they're JOBS aren't they?  And interest rates are low, and the Euro is doing better, and China is fabulous!  But the real reason why I know things are going great is because that's what my plants told me this morning.  No really!  They said "Ben, you're doing just fine.  Oh and could you water us a little more often?"  I thought it was kinda weird too but they've been speaking to me for a while now.  Did you know that they were the ones who came up with TARP?  Brilliant little suckers!

139 Exactly... lets say we pick up 70-90 seats.. what the heck will dems have to lose by passing cap and tax, immigration.. and all the other dem shit before January?

They will lose Obama's eligibility to have held office.

That has been the biggest danger of Retarded Barry's refusal to release the artifacts of his personal history.  A halfway reasonable forgery "proving" his ineligibility could quickly become the "truth" because there is nothing that it would need to displace.

If the outgoing dem majority poisons the well that way, then they will create an overwhelming political will to reverse what they've done.  The one silver bullet will be declaring Obama ineligible to have held office in the first place and thereby voiding any action he took in office.

There will be millions who will want to believe.

And yes, this is a SHTF scenario.  I already *know* which side I will be taking.

140 WalrusRex - or a balanced budget amendment which states that the Congress is personally responsible for over budget spending. That would help clean-up some of the funny math at the CBO.

141

Apparently if you buy a product from a state without sales tax, you do in fact have to pay sales tax to your own state, even though Pennslyvania didn't produce the ink and toner, didn't sell me the ink and toner, did absolutely nothing. But they still are entitled to that money.   I was so pissed.

Now that is shitty.  The costs to deliver your goods were paid for by the deliverer of the goods.  They paid the turnpike fees.  The air transport firm paid the landing fees.

the worst part is that the letter wasn't just to collect the tax, it also included a penalty for not payin the tax immediately. a tax i didn't know existed until that money.

all in all what should have been 80 bucks in sales tax ended up costing me near 300 bucks.

i highly suggest you look into your local states "use tax" before ordering things from texas online.

142 Who do you think Ben's boss is?

Most excellent question. We know he has two, don't we?

143 money = day, oops

144 A flat tax.  Equal treatment under the law.  I heard that concept somewhere.

I know, pipe dream.  Maybe in our next republic.

145 the civilians welcomed barbarian rule since the barbs took less than half of what Rome had been taking as taxes.

How much is jizya, again?

146 145 - does he have a fuzzy, white cat?

147 Those ferns, I tell ya, are smarter than people give them credit for.  So I was in the garden and I was just thinking aloud - hey, how can the country get back on its feet again?  And this fern said "why not go deeply into debt in order to stimulate spending?"  Wow what a great idea!

148

 Â“But unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility"

But unless Ameicans SHIT CAN the democratic party

Fixed!

149 i highly suggest you look into your local states "use tax" before ordering things from texas online.

I just checked.  Looks like I am responsible as the end purchaser.

150 One of the reasons individual investors are so pissed off right now is that the equities and debt markets are being driven by politicians and bankers, not by market fundamentals. There is very little rhyme or reason to the market moves right now -- the volatility is driven by competing computers running different algorithms at break-points, and by government interventions to prop up some currency or other (usually the Euro). It's a completely fucked-up way to run a global economy, and there's no sign on the horizon that things are getting any better. I think the market will inflate again over June and part of July, and then crater again when investors once again realize that there's no there there. It's all just froth, bubbles, bullshit, and empty promises. I think a rational DJIA right now would be right around 7000 or so, and the Euro would be taken out behind the barn and shot. But too many cushy bureaucratic jobs are on the line, so the printing presses will continue to run and the merry-go-round will keep spinning. For awhile.

151

 One of the reasons individual investors are so pissed off right now is that the equities and debt markets are being driven by politicians and bankers, not by market fundamentals. There is very little rhyme or reason to the market moves right now -- the volatility is driven by competing computers running different algorithms at break-points, and by government interventions to prop up some currency or other (usually the Euro). It's a completely fucked-up way to run a global economy, and there's no sign on the horizon that things are getting any better.

I think the market will inflate again over June and part of July, and then crater again when investors once again realize that there's no there there. It's all just froth, bubbles, bullshit, and empty promises. I think a rational DJIA right now would be right around 7000 or so, and the Euro would be taken out behind the barn and shot. But too many cushy bureaucratic jobs are on the line, so the printing presses will continue to run and the merry-go-round will keep spinning.

For awhile.

Those god damned free markets. I knew they would destroy us.

152 The nation has a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, it's the idiots in Washington who somehow haven't received the message and continue to spend money like a drunken Pelosi.

153 So in the interim time between the moment the pilot realizes that a crash landing is inevitable, and the moment when it is time to assume crash position, what do you tell the passengers? They will notice the plane going down.

154 A halfway reasonable forgery "proving" his ineligibility could quickly become the "truth" because there is nothing that it would need to displace.

Posted by: MikeO at June 09, 2010 12:13 PM (lBmZl)

There is no need for any forgery.  The Precedent's ineligibility is known and admitted to, as the Indonesian Imbecile admits on his own stopthesmears web site that he was born a British subject and held Kenyan citizenship after Kenya got independence.  That, by itself, makes him ineligible.  The fact that he likely held Indonesian citizenship, too, just puts a cherry on top of the argument.

I doubt that a GOP Congress will hold hearings on this - as most conservatives exhibit battered-wife syndrome when it comes to the simple truth that no one who has ever held other citizenships is a 'natural born citizen' - no matter the crcumstances of birth.

We still have fools whooping it up that Orly Taitz lost, even though Taitz's arguments were sound and true.  THe fact that it is now easy to get CONSERVATIVES to say that someone can hold citizenship in 162 different nations but still be a 'natural born citizen' and eligble for the Presidency shows how deeply this insanity goes in society, today.  The Founders would be absolutely appalled at the way US sovereignty is treated like a shit concept that doesn't even warrant verbal defense, along with the idea that split allegiances are just honky-dory and that they included those with split allegiances in their classification of 'natural born citizen' - which is so far beyond insane that it just boggles the mind.

155 But the rose bushes, let me tell ya, they are clever little devils.  So I couldn't decide whether to lower the Fed Funds rate to 0.5%, or lower it all the way to 0%.  And I just kept going back and forth - 0? or 0.5?  0?  or 0.5?  And the roses, they said "why not just make the interest rate a range?"  F'in brilliant, I tell ya.

156

81 In an LSD induced stupor, not one of us could invent a more fucked up system than our 2500 page tax code designed to enhance the elite who write campaign checks

Cocaine is a helluva drug!

157 Hi everybody!1!!111!! When is the Nevada primary?????

158 This guy lies like a rug.  How much longer are we stuck with him?

159 exdem13

From what I remember, to cope with falling incomes and rising prices, the roman government minted more coins hoping that the increase would make it easier to pay the soldiers but because it had already drained it's stores of gold and silver, the new coins had less value so merchants raised prices. To pay the soldiers, Rome had to tax landowners more heavily but the increase made them less profitable so they abandoned their lands (businesses), making food more scarce. Then Diocletian ordered the "Edict of Prices" which froze wages and set maximum prices for goods, required farmers to stay on the land for life or even chain the workers there.

This sounds just like the Atlas scenario, but doesn't it sound awfully familiar?

160 But unless we as a nation make a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility

What really bothers me about this statement is who the fuck is "we" Ben?  The fed makes money off that debt off the backs of taxpayers.  Don't want to turn this into an end the fed thread, but hell if the US govt can print a bond, they can print a greenback.  We would save trillions in interest payments.

I must be having a pipe dream wednesday.

161 I think the market will inflate again over June and part of July, and then crater again when investors once again realize that there's no there there.

The market has become nothing more than what "the insiders" of the institutional investors think they can beat the system on.  It doesn't really effect the day to day lives of most Americans.

What is truly the pits is what the actual economy is doing. Unfortunately we have no good measure of that. You can tell locally by driving by the nearest mall and checking how full the parking lot is. Also by going by your local restaurant row on a Friday evening and checking the parking lots there.

What you can't do is trust the numbers that eminate out of Washington. ANY numbers. 

162 I always thought the best commercial would be to show the new construction going on in China and pointing out that we are financing that with our interest payment to them. Point out we are spending how many billions of dollars a year to just finance our debt and then point out what that could be put to use for if we just agreed to live within our means. I think that might get the message home to even the most dim witted "me first - where is my govenment handout" voter.

Can you plug in some American kids munching on toys with Cadmium and homeowners pulling down rotten sheetrock/drywall from China?

163

Sadly, i don't thiink even a 60+ house and 10+ senate win  in november will change anything.  Even a win in 2012.

I am someone who loves what the republicans stand for when they are out of power, but when they get into power..welll.

I mean look at Bush, he deficit spent like crazy. Did i want the tax cuts? yes. Did they increase revenue? yes.  Should he have made cuts elsewhere so they didn't add the the balance sheet deficit? YES!

Bush wasn't very good president on spending and as much as i think clinton is a scum bag, at least he was running a budget surplus. sure it was funded by the fake internet stock run, but still. you have to give him credit for that. his presidency may have been an over all failure, but he succeeded in that with the help of the republican congress.

I do want the republicans to win in 2010 and 2012, but i am not holding my breath that once in power they will do the right thing.

164 This guy lies like a rug.  How much longer are we stuck with him?

Until he retires. Then we will get another lying schmuck just like him. The game never changes.

165 Posted by: progressoverpeace at June 09, 2010 12:22 PM (Qp4DT)

I'm avoiding the question of the prick's actual eligibility because there isn't enough information to establish it one way or another.

That said, the insanity you describe is a go-along-to-get-along reading of political will.  At this time, it is easier to accept the situation than to face the alternative that has a high probability of ending in SHTF.

Poisoning the well by ramming Retarded Barry's agenda through the legislative process will force people to recalculate.

166

165 I think the market will inflate again over June and part of July, and then crater again when investors once again realize that there's no there there.

The market has become nothing more than what "the insiders" of the institutional investors think they can beat the system on.  It doesn't really effect the day to day lives of most Americans.

the end game might just be the government telling the people that we should cash out our 401k, IRA, etc and put the money into a government run retirement account since the markets are so clearly manipulated and corrupted.

167 The Founders would be absolutely appalled at the way US sovereignty is treated like a shit concept that doesn't even warrant verbal defense

If we could have attached magnets to them before burial, then placed their bodies inside wire coils built into their crypts, they could power the entire Eastern seaboard with (green!) electricity.

168 vic - one number matters - the actual payroll tax receipts. When it goes up, the economy is up (assuming of course they don't cut tax rates, etc.)

169 "Strong commitment to fiscal responsibility"?  Yeah the oak tree in my yard convinced me to put that line in the speech.  I asked the tree, "but won't people think that's just code words for raising taxes"?  The oak tree told me "naww, you're a trustworthy guy Ben, they wouldn't do that!  Now could you get rid of this squirrel problem I've got in my branches?"

170 the end game might just be the government telling the people that we should cash out our 401k, IRA, etc and put the money into a government run retirement

Tell?  Should?  They will just take it.

171 A nutless monkey could do his job.  Seriously.  A nutless monkey.

172

The emperors in Rome brought in barbarian mercenaries to smash the bacaude and defeat the generals from Britain. then the barbarians, garrisoned on the populace, took over their districts and the emperors couldn't do anything.

Does anyone sense a historical parallel here, to the illegal aliens doing the jobs that welfare bums won't do?

173 assuming of course they don't cut tax rates

Cut?????? Did I hear cut?

174 o/t Pres'ent Toonces throwing Israel under the boat on fox atm. Palestinian terrorist ass kissing commences.

175 I mean look at Bush, he deficit spent like crazy. Did i want the tax cuts? yes. Did they increase revenue? yes.  Should he have made cuts elsewhere so they didn't add the the balance sheet deficit? YES!

Two words: Jumping Jeffords.

I do think that event completely changed the Bush trajectory.  Then 9/11 cemented it.  The White House would use its power to support any spending measure that delivered the necessary votes.

176 I mean look at Bush, he deficit spent like crazy

The President doesn't spend. That is up to congress. The President can veto spending which Bush should have done.

The most a President can do for fiscal policy is recommend things through the "bully pulpit" and try to reign it end when congress does things he doesn't like.

Bush signed on to the prescription drug benefit plan with the Dems. That was spending so he deserves a hit for that. Bush failed to veto a single pork barrel spending bill even after his own set of RINOs stabbed him in the back on other issues. He deserves a hit for that.

But you can not accuse him of "spending".

177

o/t Pres'ent Toonces throwing Israel under the boat on fox atm. Palestinian terrorist ass kissing commences.

 

No doubt.  $400m in "humanitarian aid" for the "unsustainable" situation in Gaza is some serious ass kissing.

178
I had a TA named Kwame Spearman.

I shit you not.

179 the actual payroll tax receipts. When it goes up, the economy is up (assuming of course they don't cut tax rates, etc.)

How can you be sure the commies in the adm are not manipulating those numbers as well?

180 o/t Pres'ent Toonces throwing Israel under the boat on fox atm. Palestinian terrorist ass kissing commences.

Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Professional Debate Team at June 09, 2010 12:33 PM (erIg9)

The Indonesian Imbecile said, "... that allows the folks in Gaza to live out their dreams and aspirations."

The "dreams and aspirations" of the primitives in Gaza are the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew they come into contact with.

Nice to see that that turd, Abbas, is given the star treatment by the White House, though I can't figure what he has to do with Gaza (as The Precedent made some passing mention of Abbas' feelings about rockets coming out of Gaza).  Abbas is more of the White House's sort of guy - arab, muslim, stupid, anti-Western, destructive - though The Precedent really likes the Hamas types much, much more. 

I hope Israel is watching this very carefully and understanding exactly what it means.

181 I can't stand to hear Ben talk. He is as spineless as his predecessor.

What  I found incredibly interesting today was his "about face" on the audit the fed bill. That is a dramatic departure and makes no sense. I am going to have to figure out what changed in the bill that enabled him to make that "about face." Weird. Put me some knowledge morons.

182

I mean look at Bush, he deficit spent like crazy

The President doesn't spend. That is up to congress. The President can veto spending which Bush should have done.

The most a President can do for fiscal policy is recommend things through the "bully pulpit" and try to reign it end when congress does things he doesn't like.

Bush signed on to the prescription drug benefit plan with the Dems. That was spending so he deserves a hit for that. Bush failed to veto a single pork barrel spending bill even after his own set of RINOs stabbed him in the back on other issues. He deserves a hit for that.

But you can not accuse him of "spending".

i know the president doesn't write the legislation, but the man vetoed nothing and by signing those bill he was in fact spending. And lets keep in mind the average american thinks the president is a quasi dictator and that he is responsible for everything during his presidency. Just think of all the people pissed at bush's spending in 2008, when the repubs were out of power in 2006 in congress.

So  perception is part of it.

Bush also didn't veto the no child left behind law, he pushed for amnesty without enforcement, medicare part D, etc.   He didn't use  his bully pulpit to lower spending.

He wasn't a good president when it came to deficts or spending, there is no getting around it.

183 No doubt.  $400m in "humanitarian aid" for the "unsustainable" situation in Gaza is some serious ass kissing.

"Free Gaza" was started by Billy Buttboy Ayers.  Supporting your buddy's causes with taxpayer money has never been easier!

It helps, too, when you're on the other side.

184

The "dreams and aspirations" of the primitives in Gaza are the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew they come into contact with.

a chicken in every pot and a katyusha in every israeli.

185 where do we keep getting this money for international donations. can someone explain that to me. how does the president declare we are giving money to someone?

186 He wasn't a good president when it came to deficts or spending, there is no getting around it.

Oh I totally agree, he just didn't spend.

187 Israel should break diplomatic ties with the US.  This is "blockade busting".  Obama has turned us into a rogue state.

188 O/T:  See, these people are "the voters".  Look at this comment.  I mean really does the government have to control everything.  This looks like Sharia's law.
"Totally agree with the Adultery law. S'cumbags like Tiki, Tiger, Gov. Sanford, Pretty boy John, & the likes would've been doing time in the can. Also, STDS & murderous domestic violence will be DOWN. You gotta see the pattern, if the people CAN'T govern themselves, then the LAW will to!"

189 O/T -- Teh Palin and her magnificent breasteses will be on with teh Megyn Kelly at 1 p.m. to talk about election results and oil spill non-results.

190 I'd hit it.

191 I'm a rocket sled, baby!  +110.19  (1.11%)

192 so wait, he wants them to "live out their dreams and aspirations" at our expense?  And to crush our dreams and aspirations?  this is getting upsetting now.

193 I would have thought that Morons would have learned long ago that any negative rumor shopped around about Sarah Palin was a damn lie.

She has ALWAYS had nice tits. What was different about that photo at the race track was that it was a thin shirt and the wind caught it and she showed them more than she normally does.

194

Vic: But you can not accuse [Bush] of "spending".

Bush strongarmed libertarian Republicans into voting for that Medicare expansion.

By your logic, if a mafia don blackmails some poor sap into robbing a bank for him, you cannot accuse the don of being a bank robber.

195 I read that Ben had to refinance his house last year because the adjustable rate ballooned. He is now, I'm glad to report, on a 30 year fixed. And he's what.. at least 45 years old! As Prof. Reynolds says, "the country's in the very best of hands." Oh yeah, END THE FED!

196 Bush strongarmed libertarian Republicans into voting for that Medicare expansion.

Did I not say he deserved a hit for that???

197 What was different about that photo at the race track was that it was a thin shirt and the wind caught it and she showed them more than she normally does.

Link, please.

198

But you can not accuse him of "spending".

Posted by: Vic at June 09, 2010 12:39 PM (6taRI)

You would have to ignore the wars to make that statement. Bush should have stepped up to the plate and paid for the stuff he was doing. Paying for the wars would have meant a small tax increase that would have had no affect on the economy. We are still wearing the cost of the wars around our neck along with the medicare drug bill. Obama uses it as an excuse, the media gives Obama cover by bringing it up and the democrats in congress make a living off of it.

We have to walk the walk when it comes to not only cutting spending but paying for what spending we do.

199

I would have thought that Morons would have learned long ago that any negative rumor shopped around about Sarah Palin was a damn lie.

She has ALWAYS had nice tits. What was different about that photo at the race track was that it was a thin shirt and the wind caught it and she showed them more than she normally does.

what photo and why are you not posting it?

200

local property taxes, and capital gains on house sales

How the hell are local property taxes and taxing capital gains on house sales subsidies???

201 The Indonesian Imbecile just said, "The Iranian government has defined itself in opposition to ... my country." [paraphrased]

"My country"??  Precedential speech, for sure.  I can't recall a President who spoke about "my country" for any policy discussions.  But, in any event, I don't know why anyone would even care if the Iranian government defined itself by contrast with Indonesia. 

I wonder why the retard didn't say he was "going to kick some Iranian ass"?  That's how they speak at the White House, these days.  Those great orators and their Columbia/Hah-vahd affirmative action edumacations.

202 so wait, he wants them to "live out their dreams and aspirations" at our expense?  And to crush our dreams and aspirations?  this is getting upsetting now.

Posted by: curious at June 09, 2010 12:54 PM (p302b)

Getting?!  Getting?  We're waaaaay past 'getting'.

203 "Bush wasn't very good president on spending and as much as i think clinton is a scum bag, at least he was running a budget surplus" Bush was no hardcore fiscal conservative, but we must bear in mind that he served during the deadliest foreign attack in our Nation's history as well as the deadliest natural disaster in recent memory. Nobody's coming out of that with extra cash in their pockets, nobody.

204 She has ALWAYS had nice tits.

Posted by: Vic at June 09, 2010 12:55 PM (6taRI)

That's for sure.  Speaking of nice tits, Patti Ann Brown was working some wonders, today.

205 I mean really does the government have to control everything.  This looks like Sharia's law.

Frankly, that law is a lot less reprehensible than most other laws we accept without much complaint.

Regardless of what the commenter wrote, this law is nothing more than a proscription of a particular behavior that New York made a misdemeanor crime.

What is truly reprehensible is the idea that the government can compel me with the threat of imprisonment backed by their monopoly of force to give money that ends up paying salaries at Planned Parenthood.

206 Bush was no hardcore fiscal conservative, but we must bear in mind that he served during the deadliest foreign attack in our Nation's history as well as the deadliest natural disaster in recent memory.
Nobody's coming out of that with extra cash in their pockets, nobody.

Posted by: Lincolntf at June 09, 2010 12:59 PM (TrI6t)

Add to that the fact that something like $6 trillion in wealth disappeared with the NASDAQ crash.  Bush was not terrible on budgeting.  His deficits were highly manageable and reduced until the Dems took Congress and the deficit trajectory started back on the upwards move, again.  And, compared to what's happened since the Indonesian Imbecile took over, Bush's spending wasn't even a drop in the bucket.

207 What was different about that photo at the race track was that it was a thin shirt and the wind caught it and she showed them more than she normally does.

Link, please.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at June 09, 2010 12:57 PM (5aa4z)

Repeat from previous thread in case anybody missed it: (Sarah babe)

No rumor; she was looking quite boobalicious too.

I don't care what anybody says, that IS teh hawt!

208 Posted by: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at June 09, 2010 01:05 PM (IhHdM)

Oh, my my. Just awesome.

209 Muchos gracias por las tatas.  Mui bueno juggage!

210 So many asses to kick, such little feet.

211 We have to walk the walk when it comes to not only cutting spending but paying for what spending we do.

BS, the tax cuts resulted in HUGE increases in revenue. The war spending was not even included in the deficit numbers.  I usually don't have too much of a problem with war spending on a temporary basis, as long as it IS temporary.

What we should have been doing is cutting other spending on the socialist programs instead of INCREASING it.

But congress did that, some of it like No child and the drug plan were at Bush's urging.  But in the end CONGRESS spends the money.

I think everyone should be clear on that. Even when we have a conservative President like RR if you give him liberal Dems and RINOs in congress the spending will still go up.   

212 Some new terminology we should probably get acquainted with:

D.C. == Castle
President == King
Executive Departments == Servants
Congress == Lords
Beltway == Moat
America's vast expanse == Fields
America's inhabitants == Peasants, Serfs

213 Bush signed on to the prescription drug benefit plan with the Dems. That was spending so he deserves a hit for that.

Posted by: Vic at June 09, 2010 12:39 PM (6taRI)

Vic:  That Presc. Drug Benefit was Bush's own policy initiative, undertaken by him and Rove to buy seniors' votes for the GOP.  The Dems signed onto his plan, not vice versa.  So yes indeed, he spent like a mad man.  Then there was Bush's TARP plan.  Spending is a charitable description for that little gen, and He bears full responsibility for that, does he not?

 

214 Then there was Bush's TARP plan.

I don't think Bush had a lot to do with that Tarp plan. I think it was worked out with the fed and Obama and Bush just stepped aside.

215 Besides all that you folks are missing my damn point. I agree that Bush was NOT a conservative.  The point is that congress spends the money and we should not forget that.

216 @171  Speaking as a conservative double E, Heather, that is so hot in so many ways.

217 Then there was Bush's TARP plan.  Spending is a charitable description for that little gen, and He bears full responsibility for that, does he not?

Posted by: Preznit One-Leg at June 09, 2010 01:25 PM (jat5l)

TARP had nothing to do with spending, per se.  The problem with TARP was that it was not restricted to merely the parts of the financial system that the monetary system needed - which was within Congress and the federal government's responsibility, though it was still poor policy.  It was the dem Congress that fashioned the insane TARP bill, which only the House GOP had the guts to stop once - though some crumbled on the second run, as the pressure on them was beyond anything I have ever seen.  The House GOP saved this nation from even worse than the Dem Congress (and Bush) were pushing.

As written, TARP ended up being extremely un-Constitutional, and that was its main problem as it was done.  But it was not part of "spending" until the Dems and MFM forcibly rammed it through and created a $700 billion slush fund for Treasury, that the Indonesian Imbecile has abused beyond belief and should be impeached and jailed for (along with Geithner).

Megyn Kelly is now mouthing the idiotic narrative that Bush created the huge deficit and The Precedent merely inherited it.  What an uninformed ass.  Sometimes Megyn is just stupid.

218 Megyn Kelly is now mouthing the idiotic narrative that Bush created the huge deficit and The Precedent merely inherited it.  What an uninformed ass.  Sometimes Megyn is just stupid.

She knows better than that. Fox has gone big time left since the House of Saud bought in to Fox. She used to be quite conservative.

219

Mallamutt 220 -

Left one / Right one 2012

220

I don't think Bush had a lot to do with that Tarp plan. I think it was worked out with the fed and Obama and Bush just stepped aside.

He'd still rightly take credit for stepping aside.

At any rate... bullshit.

Obama hadn't been elected yet. Obama wasn't working shit out. McCain, you might plausibly claim was trying to work TARP shit out. And Bush. Mr. "We must save capitalism from itself" or whatever.

Obama was bussing around the country on a campaign trail. He didn't work out a damn thing for near a year after he took the oath of office, except which color he wanted his styrofoam columns to be.

Trying to pin the first '08 spending-orgy on Obama is pure wishful thinking. He had nada to do with it.

221

Trying to pin the first '08 spending-orgy on Obama is pure wishful thinking. He had nada to do with it.

Posted by: Entropy at June 09, 2010 01:47 PM (IsLT6)

The Indonesian Imbecile voted for it and wholeheartedly supported it.  He made threatening addresses about people who were against it in order to coerce their votes - continuing to do that all the way into '09 with his declaration that wasting a trillion dollars was necessary, lest the US fall into an 'irrecoverable recession', or whatever his phrase was.  The '08 spending was as much the Indonesian's as anyone's.  And he showed in '09 that he would have gone that much further, if he could have.

222

First everyone agrees that Bush was no fiscal conservative. Other than lip service he never even ran on it. He campaigned as a "compassionate conservative" which practically everyone knew meant "free spending conservative", and that's exactly how he governed.

Second, the President presents a budget yearly to Congress, if I recall correctly the Congress (under Republican control) never substantially increased the budgets Bush presented.

Third, the budget from 2005 to 2007 was heading towards balance until 2008. All that changed with the 2008 stimulus that Bush and the Democrats passed in April of that year (I'm not talking about TARP but the $500 rebate earlier in the year). That was $200 billion in deficit increase right there, with little or no effect on the economy. That is what greased the skids for the $700 billion TARP and the $900 billion Obama stimulus.

Fourth, all that being said, Obama is now the President and any graph of government spending shows a distinct inflection change with Obama taking office. Also Bush never signed a budget for 2009 as the Democrats only passed continuing resolutions. In fact, the Omnibus Budget for 2009, normally passed in October of the preceding year was actually signed by Obama in February. Therefore I think it is reasonable to suggest that Obama owns much of the late 2008 spending even though he wasn't President. I can't fault a lame duck Bush for ill-conceived Democrat Congress machinations.

One thing we all need to hammer is that Obama's spending programs will increase the deficit by 50% by 2012.

223 dagny: You are right, the inflation of the 3rd-4th century Roman empire came from a shortage of gold and silver specie. That decision (the ancient version of printing money) forced the issuing of adulterated currency, which led to inflation since any shopkeeper colud tell the difference between a true solidus and one that was part bronze...or part tin. Higher inflation to higher prices to higher pay demands by the legions to higher taxes to higher blood pressure across the Empire. Diocletian and Constantine tried to fix things, but the inevitable forces of corruption and market action unfettered by edict ended up playing further havoc.

It should also be noted that the barbarian mercenaries demanded-and received-payment in as pure a currency as the Romans could find and issue. The Goths, Vandals, Huns, and Franks weren't civilized, but they knew what real wealth meant, and it wasn't the gilded tin being forced on the peasants.

224 "... that allows the folks in Gaza to live out their dreams and aspirations."

Why does this cocksucker have to be all folksy when he's talking about angry Arabs who elected a terrorist organization to represent them? Their "dreams and aspirations" are a second Holocaust. Meanwhile, the actual average folks are placed on DHS watch lists for having served in our military.

225 Posted by: progressoverpeace at June 09, 2010 01:34 PM (Qp4DT)

Seriously?  Megyn Kelly?  Wow, that is unbelievable....she was the only one on the whole station other than that crazy beck and occasionally Brett Baier to be willing to deviate from the script....

this is not good.

226

strong commitment to fiscal responsibility...What you talkin about sucka?

 

227

We'll be saved by green jobs...Meaning?

Diving green dumpsters bitches...I won!

228 xxx