Cheerleaders??

..whores...every stinkin' one of 'em

Until spinal injuries are curable, I agree.  

I am eh on Bullshit! most of the time. Sometimes I think it's interesting; sometimes I think they're being silly just for the sake of claiming a strong opinion about a sexy topic. I expected the cheerleading show to be lame. It's not. This is a frigging scandal. We are letting high school girls get paralyzed doing a bunch of utterly-unsafe circus moves for no particular reason other than watching people almost die is thrilling.

A scandal? Not prone to any overstatement are you Ace?

Posted by: Y-not at October 08, 2010 02:07 PM (osFsP)

Not really. You can compete in tiddlywinks, and its still not a sport. Poker is also not a sport, despite being half of ESPNs programming.

I dated a cheerleader for 2 years in high school, went to the state competitions, and watched hundreds of routines much to my chagrin. Her squad won it all one year.

The competition is pretty intense, and different squads are more athletic than others, so they tend to push the envelope.

Never really thought about it, but yeah, not many rules and quite a few injuries.

"We are letting high school girls get paralyzed doing a bunch of utterly-unsafe circus moves for no particular reason other than watching people almost die is thrilling."

It's worse than that.  At the circus, or a boxing match, or a NASCAR race, there is a universally-acknowledged risk of death, part of the spectacle.  It's not that we WANT the trapeze artist to splat against the floor under the Big Top, but knowing that he is deliberately exposing himself to that risk makes what he's doing appear that much more impressive because of the extra nerve it takes.

NOBODY thinks that a cheerleading routine is supposed to carry a risk of death.  That risk isn't part of the spectacle: we'd be just as thrilled to see the throws and catches if they were done on padded mats because we don't expect these kids to work without a net.  That they do -- that nobody cares to see that they do -- means they're risking death or permanent disability for no good reason.  (And yes, I do think that the trapeze artist working without a net is risking death for a good reason.)

Posted by: Nighthawk at October 08, 2010 02:08 PM (02uN6)

Mebbe, but I got numbers on you.

Posted by: dan-O at October 08, 2010 02:06 PM

YOU LIE!

Posted by: Nighthawk at October 08, 2010 02:08 PM (02uN6)

I don't know who they are doing all that for, but it its not for me, the average sports fan. Cheerleaders look nice on the sidelines during breaks in the action. When they go out and throw themselves around, I'm looking for the popcorn vendor.

Posted by: dan-O at October 08, 2010 02:10 PM (bRLuD)

I took competitive MATH TESTs in high school. Is that a sport too?

Posted by: a zillion NASCAR fans

No, of course no..Hey look! The cars are all turning left!!!!!

Posted by: ace at October 08, 2010 02:11 PM

Something tells me the helmets and body padding required to make it safe would make cheering far less interesting to watch for the dudes. 

that's a good point. i still think libertarians can agree with these sorts of limits though: the people who are preforming this activity don't have full information of the risks. sure, they might know injury is pretty common and being paralyzed isn't uncommon, but no one knows just what that entails without having to suffer through it.

besides, without limits the competitions become arms races of risk rather than arms races of skill. doing risky stuff is pretty easy and looks neat, whereas it requires more creativity and skill to wow an audience with low risk events.

No, of course no..Hey look! The cars are all turning left!!!!!

Posted by: Blue Hen at October 08, 2010 02:13 PM (R2fpr)

Look at me! Right turns, baby. Right turns.

Posted by: dan-O at October 08, 2010 02:15 PM (bRLuD)

Well my fingers sure hurt afterward.

I guess I'm a little more libertarian than I realized at first.

I've always thought that the stuff cheerleaders did in high school and college was a little foolhardy.  And I always wondered, why was it socially acceptable for gymnasts to wrap everything they touch in foam pads, but apparently it is unthinkable for cheerleaders to do their stuff on foam mats instead of the cold, hard basketball court / track ring?

In the end, though...High School / College cheerleaders know what they're getting into.  I would hazard a guess that this is why most of the "professional" cheerleading groups for sports teams are more drill-team than cheerleaders.

You know what you're signing up for.

Now, if you had a situation where the instructors / directors are MAKING these kids do these things against their will, using intimidation or whatnot, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

Cheerleading is risky?

pshhaw! Fucking child's play

And no, cheerleading isn't a sport.

Not all competition- even those requiring athletic ability- is a sport.

They're not judged on how high they can throw a cheerleader compared to their competition, for example.  If, for example, you're judged in part based on what outfit your wearing, it's a pretty good indication that it's not a sport.  Interpretive dance might be in the Olympics and might even be athletic, but it's not a sport.  Neither is cheerleading.

Posted by: curious at October 08, 2010 02:18 PM (p302b)

OWaffle's dog is now on the campaign trail?

Hmm.  Better than the alternative for Dims I spose.

As long as the cheerleaders agree to one set of standards promulgated by a nongovernment entity, what could be the problem?

Kind of like NASCAR et al. having rules about how the cars are designed and the tracks laid out. It lowers the danger quotient when everyone who participates agrees not to do certain things, crowd-pleasing as they might be.

>>> Don't get me started on pole dancing.

Some lady in England went to a pole dancing excercise class and dropped 2' straight down the pole onto her head.  Broke her neck and now she eats out of a straw.  Couple of kids at home too, sad. 

#35 makes a good point, libertarians don't give a crap about the rules that voluntary organizations have.  They only care about laws.  You don't mean that moves should be illegal-illegal (cue obligatory Whoopi joke), as in you go to jail, just that it should be a banned move in competition.  I can't see where that is a libertarian issue at all.

I knew a girl in high school who did a front flip and jammed her shin bone into her knee.  It was awful to see and hear, it was a compound fracture that was as bad as the Joe Theisman leg break.

When properly practiced (on a field, for example), there are no winners or losers.

So what the hell are state cheerleader competitions??

NFL football is the same way: you can armor the guys like tanks, but you're still going to have guys getting badly hurt and sometimes killed. That's one of the risks you accept when you play the game.

Which is not to say that Ace doesn't have a valid point; simply that all of life contains a particle of risk. Risk and reward are often bound together -- in life as in finance.

No one is suggesting that cheerleading, football, boxing, or competitive walking should be made competely risk-free.  With football and boxing, there are rules intended to limit the risk of injury though- no one complains about the facemask rule in football, for example.

The same should probably hold true with cheerleading, whether it's an actual sport or not (it isn't, but that doesn't make a difference).

There's a HUGE difference between calling attention to something so that people can become more aware of it, and asking for government intervention. People ask for government intervention because they don't want people to be responsible for making decisions. People call attention to something because they DO want people to make informed decisions.

There's a world of difference.

A lot of the cheerleading "teams" that are shown on ESPN and that compete in "Cheerleading" competitions are not associated with a school - they are with independent "gyms".  That's not to say that school teams don't compete on ESPN, just that many of the competitors don't ever get in front of the Home crowd on Friday/Saturday nights.

My husband and I watched that show a couple of months ago, and it was eye-opening.  I also thought it was quite surprising to see P&T's show about teenaged sex.  My bet is that Penn Gillette is much more interested in showing people the stories behind that now that he has a young daughter of his own (who I'm betting has him wrapped tightly around his little finger).

Posted by: dan-O at October 08, 2010 02:10 PM (bRLuD)

--No, the most accurate description would be a "game."  Golf is a game.  Figure skating too.  The competition is not direct: the actions of one team/player do not directly affect those of other participants.

Come to think of it, cheerleading is even less than a game since it also involves judges.

In the end, though...High School / College cheerleaders know what they're getting into.  I would hazard a guess that this is why most of the "professional" cheerleading groups for sports teams are more drill-team than cheerleaders.

You know what you're signing up for.

Now, if you had a situation where the instructors / directors are MAKING these kids do these things against their will, using intimidation or whatnot, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

Posted by: reason

But there's one point right there. The pros, which consist of adults in their 20s or older, don't even consider doing this. The most extreme stunts are performed by minors or college age students.

And the fact that some subjective judgments are involved does not mean it isn't a sport. Gymnastics and ice skating have artistic components to them. If that criteria is valid, then chess most certainly is a sport.

In my highschool senoir year, there was more MCL/ACL/PCL surgeries on the cheerleading squad than the football team.

that isn't an exageration either. I had a good friend who has a nasty surgery scar up her leg, kinda looks like that scar Jim Treacher has been showing on his site.

It is a dangerous activity.

Come to think of it, cheerleading is even less than a game since it also involves judges.

Posted by: logprof

Football and tennis have judges.

So what the hell are state cheerleader competitions??

Posted by: laceyunderalls at October 08, 2010 02:22 PM (deIzc)

For me they were places to drink with my friends in the parking lot and enjoy the scenery when my GF was busy with her routine.

It's a sport though.

Posted by: Acapulco Cliff Diving at October 08, 2010 02:24 PM (v1cQf)

I would classify this as a stunt, and not a sport.

#35 makes a good point, libertarians don't give a crap about the rules that voluntary organizations have.  They only care about laws.  You don't mean that moves should be illegal-illegal (cue obligatory Whoopi joke), as in you go to jail, just that it should be a banned move in competition.  I can't see where that is a libertarian issue at all.

I knew a girl in high school who did a front flip and jammed her shin bone into her knee.  It was awful to see and hear, it was a compound fracture that was as bad as the Joe Theisman leg break.

Posted by: arminius at October 08, 2010 02:21 PM (TVbdM)

--That was a point Stossel made on one of his specials a few months ago.  Steroid use should be governed by the respective sports leagues, not by federal laws.  (Yes, some of them may be unsafe but almost anything OTC can be abused.  Caveat emptor.)

Also, it's worth pointing out that government intervention will not stop people from doing stupid things that hurt themselves. Especially not in the long run. The more that people get comfortable with the idea that "Hey, this is legal therefore it must be safe", the more people will blame government for not stopping them for doing something stupid.

It's the opposite of individual responsibility.

And no, I'm not saying that all regulations are bad. I'm just pointing out the difference between "it's the government's fault that people hurt themselves" and "people shouldn't do this because they'll hurt themslves."

Football and tennis have judges.

Judges in football and tennis don't determine the outcome.  They only decide whether the players have complied with the rules.

I've never understood the 'it's not a sport!!!!11!!' mentality.

In high school I had swim practice at 5:30 am every school day. Who else had 5:30 am practices? The cheer squad. It was never my thing, but they were every bit as dedicated to their sport as football, basketball, baseball players, wresters, etc.

Cheerleading is a sport, insofar as there are people who characterize figure skating as a sport.  As long as the latter is recognized as a sport-- and wrongly or not, it is-- then there is no justification for cheerleading to not be afforded the same protections and regulations as figure skating.

So what the hell are state cheerleader competitions??

A competition judged on completely subjective opinion.

The may try to make it sound quasi-official, but when being judged in part on what clothes you wear and your music selection... not a sport.

Just about anything can be turned into a competition.  For instance, take the "battle of the bands" competition that takes place in bars in every major city at one time or another.  There's a winner and losers, there's usually some degree of athletics involved (stage presence), but it's still not a sport.

Football and tennis have judges.

Posted by: Blue Hen at October 08, 2010 02:25 PM (R2fpr)

--Those judges are for enforcement of certain rules (mostly the boundaries of play), not for deciding the outcome of the competition.

Good that there is no controversy about our objectivity, expecially in the post season.

It is a dangerous activity.

Posted by: Ben at October 08, 2010 02:25 PM (wuv1c)

There is no reason why a non-sport activity must be less dangerous than a sport. Or be less physical. They are not correllated.

Football and tennis have judges.

Judges in football and tennis don't determine the outcome.  They only decide whether the players have complied with the rules.

Posted by: Cicero

I'd say that they don't determine the outcome, but they can influence it. Agreed, that's different than judges who compile scores and thus determine outcome. But that still injects subjectivity. And there are judges in boxing that do award point, and decsions are often determined by them.

Posted by: MrCaniac

Crap I shoulda turned pro back in my kidney stone days.

Cheerleading is a sport, insofar as there are people who characterize figure skating as a sport.  As long as the latter is recognized as a sport-- and wrongly or not, it is-- then there is no justification for cheerleading to not be afforded the same protections and regulations as figure skating.

Posted by: Some Guy at October 08, 2010 02:30 PM (QQn2V)

I don't consider them sports.

Posted by: ace at October 08, 2010 02:31 PM (t+Hrl)

They hate girls doing things men enjoy, but have no desire to do themselves.

The may try to make it sound quasi-official, but when being judged in part on what clothes you wear and your music selection... not a sport.

What are you talking about?

You think they perfect their cheers and tumbles trying to achieve a higher degree of difficulty only to be judged on their choice of music and hair bows?

We need Craig and Arianna to give us The Perfect Cheer.

Completely O/T, but did anyone happen to see that article about how President "Hand-to-hand Combat" plans on fighting the next Congress?  Get ready for a slew of Executive Orders:

http://tinyurl.com/24vgtxv

We had this really big chested cheerleader in high school and every Friday morning she would come in with bruises on her face.  Finally the school stepped in and called the cops to investigate abuse in her home.

Turns out she wasn't abused.  She just liked to practice naked in her room, the night before the football game.

She never even noticed the bruises. Just thought her face hurt(espicially the bottom of her jaw) because she had screamed so much the night before practicing, naked, in her bedroom.

Dear Penthouse, I never thought that I would find myself writing this but.........

Who in Hell admits to their high school that they hop around naked? And what is her phone number?

No, the most accurate description would be a "game."  Golf is a game.

No golf is a sport.  You have a physical skill that objectively scores points to win against your competition.  

Posted by: zombie Christopher Reeve at October 08, 2010 02:28 PM (m2CN7)

--You can golf by yourself.  Not a sport.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at October 08, 2010 02:32 PM (SB0V2)

Beauty pageants used to be (and maybe still are) the same way and for similar reasons - a way for over the top parents to live through their kids.

Posted by: logprof at October 08, 2010 02:37 PM (BP6Z1)

You can do pretty much all of the track and field sports by yourself. Are they not sports?

Posted by: golf fan at October 08, 2010 02:40 PM (S5YRY)

bad analogy, since shooting baskets is not basketball. Its practice for basketball.

Local control.

Some sports association could make recommendations that districts adopt.

Posted by: curious at October 08, 2010 02:35 PM (p302b)

My younger brother's first wife did that to their daughter. One of the many reasons she became an "ex".

Not just highschool girls.  I played pop-warner in seventh-grade in a small town that took football very seriously...  I remember a girl in my class getting tossed and dropped at practice right across the field we were on.  She had to be taken out on a backboard and wore a neckbrace for half of the school year...  and she was lucky!

I probably sustained the worst injury on our team for the season when I got speared in the back being blocked on kickoff team.  I walked off the field and only missed the next week's game.

Posted by: momma at October 08, 2010 02:33 PM (penCf)

--Wow, so that old Dolly Parton joke was realistic!

Slightly relevant. Okay not really, but a cool story.

Gurl power!

But she's just a kicker in a sport with a bunch of tackling. So I guess she's not really an athlete either.

Cheerleading is a sport. Ever watch one of those competitions? It's a sport. It's just classic that some douchebag feminist bitch would not encourage the safety and legitimacy of the sport.

Follow the money, nonbelievers.

There is no law against a full Nelson.  It's just a rule adopted at local levels.

And!  One would think lawsuits would encourage schools to set some restrictions.  Like they did on full Nelsons.

Don't forget the music selection and choice of outfits. That's really where it's at.

I think we have a bunch of 70 year old men here who are refusing to join the modern age and will not, no matter how many times they are told, accept that "cheerleading" in competition these days does NOT consist of "Dance Moves."

I'm only 40... but yeah- it does largely consist of dance moves.  I've watched cheerleader competitions in the not so distant past; they perform to dance music for a reason.

There is going to be some acrobatic / gymnastic moves in there too, but they're not judged solely on how difficult a particular gymnastic move is.  If they were, then it might arguably be a "sport", but they're not.

But she's just a kicker in a sport with a bunch of tackling

Although I disagree with the folks claiming cheerleading isn't a sport, it is, are you saying it's because cheerleaders are mostly girls that the guys here are saying that?

I think most guys here would agree that women's soccer is sport.

i was in hs not too long ago, and maybe a few times a year the cheerleaders would do an outdoor show in our ampitheather at lunch (which is where most people ate, as the cafeteria was waaaaay too small). anyway, they would do moves over concrete and i do know that they'd get 2 people high and then toss another person from that second level. i don't recall precisely, but i'm pretty sure there wre even 3 high levels on ocassion.

sure they had (often big dudes as) spotters, but falls happened in maybe 10% of the time. fortunately, the spotters alawys did their job when i watched.

Heh heh, Bush pulls even with Obama in CNN Poll

http://tinyurl.com/2dedfny

Actually the protective gear has probably resulted in just as many injuries as it gives players the ability to have less caution. 

This makes sense.  I watched rugby closely one time.  Watch.  They pull up just before the hit.  Just before the impact, they slow down, put the brakes on, yank their heads and torsos back, and get ready to avoid the hit as much as possible.  With pads, they'd dive in, like in football.

Also, I don't get why people are quibbling over the  definition of "sport". It shouldn't matter whether  cheer-leading is or isn't a sport, it should matter  on whether or not it is dangerous. 

Agreed.  I don't see how it needs to be classified as a "sport" before they can enact rules to protect the participants.

Adults who 5) needlessly ruin an activity for a child because every game is the Super Bowl, every practice is the last practice before cut down day and every season is the season college recruiter is going to spot junior at some meaningless tournament and, even though junior is 8, fast track junior to a scholarship at Big Time University A.

Posted by: Mallamutt at October 08, 2010 02:44 PM (OWjjx)

Agree.  Would agree more had you used some big bold fonts.  Whatever.

Of my personal top 20 sports moments, probably 15 are from when no adults were around.

Looking back, the idiocy and ignorance of many of the adults I dealt with is even more staggering.

Although I disagree with the folks claiming cheerleading isn't a sport, it is, are you saying it's because cheerleaders are mostly girls that the guys here are saying that?

That would be correct.

And perhaps I'm wrong. I'd hope so.

But when I read shit about the sexiness, length of the skirts, ta's, etc, I do sense just a smidge of sexism to some of these posts.

I think the way baseball players slap each other's asses all the time should be stopped. 

You can always tell whether an athlete favors fooball, a men's sport, or baseball.  Watch how often he puts the palm of his hand on other guy's butts.  The player who likes grabbing ass is the baseball player.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at October 08, 2010 02:46 PM (0q2P7)

--Jumping to a conclusion.  Remember the Olympics are officially called "games."  Most Olympic events are not sports.  Water polo is pretty lame, but it is a sport.

Posted by: ace at October 08, 2010 02:41 PM (t+Hrl)

Wow....don't have a real high an opinion of your readers, do ya?

Posted by: mjb

definition of 'Full disclosure': pic and/or video

P.S. Did you happen to have a particular well endowed lass with facial bruising?

oh that's funny I thought they were performing very difficult and dangerous gymnastics stunts because they were getting points for it. Thank you for informing me that they are simply crazy and doing it for no reason whatsoever.

And yet the "team" that performs the most difficult, dangerous and athletic stunts isn't guaranteed to win.

Have said team go out wearing non-matching sweats, performing to music by Iron Maiden doing nothing but highly athletic gymnastics and see how they score.  They wear the outfits and dance to music because that also gets them points.

Here's Reason No. 3: Any serious analysis of sports will find that the safest sports involve guns.

I've heard of injuries in gymnastics, bobsleding, skiing, ski jumping -- even tennis. And a guy died practicing luge in Vancouver earlier this year. But I've never heard of a target-shooting injury. (Maybe there have been some; I've never heard of them, though, and I'm assuming that if there were such injuries in competitive marksmanship events, the news media would be all over the story.)

So a hypothetical feminist mom steering her daughter to pick up a rifle and practice for the team would have to betray some ideological allies, wouldn't she?

But when I read shit about the sexiness, length of the skirts, ta's, etc, I do sense just a smidge of sexism to some of these posts.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at October 08, 2010 02:55 PM (deIzc)

Fair enough.  I can't agree with you though.

I'm guessing all the guys here would agree women's soccer, tennis, bball etc is a sport.

I'm not horrified by men noticing cheerleaders, sexy by and large, in skimpy clothing either.  Recognizing male/female differences isn't sexism necessarily either.

And again, anyone who has seen a cheer competition would have a hard time denying that it is a sport.  The competition is intense.

I'm not getting the "cheerleading isn't a sport" argument. They compete, they train, they travel, they strategize, it's dangerous, it's physical, there are teams, they win or lose, How is it NOT a sport?

Be careful, lots of sports in highschool like air riflery don't measure up to some of your standards of sports.

Follow the money. The only reason it's not ruled a "sport" is because of the Varsity lobby.

Man how do you know how to push my buttons.  Water polo is a freaking tremendous sport and hard as hell.

Posted by: polynikes

Waterproofing the horse for example is a bitch and a half.

You are failing to "get" that what you are seeing at games is just part of what they do. See, they train for -- and travel to -- cheerleading competitions in which there are no football players, where THEY are the athletes being judged, and they compete against each other. And are judged. And have winners and losers and runners up.

They do.  They got to camp.   (I know, because my sister was a cheerleader at a large school.  And, yeah, I saw some slumber parties.  I know you were wondering about that.)  And there are probably more ways for them to compete now.  They practice all the time and train.  I haven't read the whole thread and stuff, so someone's prolly already made this point:  I don't understand why they don't treat it like gymnastics.  

I think the way baseball players slap each other's asses all the time should be stopped. 

You can always tell whether an athlete favors fooball, a men's sport, or baseball.  Watch how often he puts the palm of his hand on other guy's butts.  The player who likes grabbing ass is the baseball player.

Posted by: rdbrewer at October 08, 2010 02:57 PM (Chxbz)

--There was something on PTI a day or so ago about the NBA wanting to, uh, crack down on ass-slapping after Grant Hill did it in an exhibition game with a teammate.

I'm not getting the "cheerleading isn't a sport" argument. They compete, they train, they travel, they strategize, it's dangerous, it's physical, there are teams, they win or lose, How is it NOT a sport?

A team beer-drinking competition would meet all those requirements.  Would that that therefore also be a sport?  I think I might have found something I can win at.

150 I think we have a bunch of 70 year old men here who are refusing to join the modern age

..so you have to pigeon hole those don't agree with you..and at the same time insult them?

Water polo is pretty lame, but it is a sport.

I guess you hvae never played. My roommate in law school played water polo. One time, and one time only, I went to one of his prctices. I got the 15 minute lecture on the basics, etc. Jumped in and thought, what the hell, this can not be that hard. One of the toughest workouts I ever had. And above the surface, looks real nice,polite even. Below the surface.....grabbing, prodding, a very physical game.

Posted by: Mallamutt

Please tell us that this was co-ed. If not, then approxiamtely how many balls are in play at any one time?

Man how do you know how to push my buttons.  Water polo is a freaking tremendous sport and hard as hell.

Posted by: polynikes at October 08, 2010 03:01 PM (m2CN7)

--I wouldn't disagree; when I see those guys on TV you can appreciate the vigor it takes.  I was referring more to watching it trhan playing it.

I'm not horrified by men noticing cheerleaders, sexy by and large, in skimpy clothing either

And I'm not either.

But......

I think it's patently retarded to assume that's the basis of whether or not it's classified as a sport.

Posted by: Blue Hen at October 08, 2010 03:08 PM (R2fpr)

I guess I should have said below the surface of the water.........

Posted by: Mallamutt

I don't think that that improves the mental picture any. But in a show of good 'sportsmanship', I'll refrain from any Barney Frank references.

It gets a little annoying at times when a thread devolves into multiple discussions and tempers flare about one set of arguments because they feel like its talking about their other separate discussion.

Here it seems to be "Is cheerleading a sport" and "cheerleading is a dangerous activity and more safety regulation is needed"  The bleed through of one to another can cause anger  that is not needed.

Not guaranteed to win, no, but it helps, because the dance steps aren't really so hard.

But yeah, like in many admitted sports, such as figure skating, or, frankly, even boxing, technique counts as far as judging. So?

Figure skating isn't a sport in my book, for the same reasons.

Boxers aren't scored on style; they're judged on fairly objective standards- blows landed, knockdowns, etc.  I don't believe that a boxing judge gives points based on how good a boxer looks when landing a punch; they do have to judge whether it connected though.  If it wasn't reasonably objective, you wouldn't have 3 judges all scoring a match within a couple points of each other, and with fairly high scores.

Were you to judge cheerleading on a 50 or 100 point scale, I doubt they'd all be withing a couple points of each other- there's too much subjectivity and personal opinion involved.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz

Agreed. Unless grabbing and prodding are involved. See above.

And thus the cheerleading thread devolved into the FRIDAY FLAME WAR.

I think it's patently retarded to assume that's the basis of whether or not it's classified as a sport.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at October 08, 2010 03:12 PM (deIzc)

You are claiming that they are doing that, I don't agree.

Look, I've gotten in debates for the last 20 years with people who claim golf isn't a sport, or baseball, or nascar...I've been on the pro sport side in all of those arguments, just like I am pro cheerleading as sport.

You are assuming the guys here are on the non sport side because cheerleaders are mostly women.  I disagree.

Boxers aren't scored on style; they're judged on fairly objective standards- blows landed, knockdowns, etc.  I don't believe that a boxing judge gives points based on how good a boxer looks when landing a punch; they do have to judge whether it connected though.  If it wasn't reasonably objective, you wouldn't have 3 judges all scoring a match within a couple points of each other, and with fairly high scores.

Were you to judge cheerleading on a 50 or 100 point scale, I doubt they'd all be withing a couple points of each other- there's too much subjectivity and personal opinion involved.

Posted by: Hollowpoint

Either that, or some of the dozens of fixed fight allegations are true. And judges in other sports award points for technical achievement. Doing a routine successfully without faltering and landing a blow are not dissimilar in that respect.

There's a reason why many fencing leagues adopted jackets that detect a hit and score a point; judges, cannot always determine a clean hit and the fencers have an incentive to due what we in the SCA called 'rhino-hiding' (ignoring good blows).

Posted by: ace at October 08, 2010 03:11 PM (t+Hrl)

Actually, I agree with you-...probably because I'm not a 70 year old man

I had never seen that side of cheerleading until I went to a football game at THE Ohio State University several years back

We had field level seats...which actually suck if you're trying to watch the game..but the cheerleadrers were right in fornt of us. I had always been used to seeing somewhat buxom girls doing their jiggly thing NTTIAWWT..

...but the the average height/weight of the OSU cheerleaders probably was probably under 5'0"...and under 100 lbs.. They were all obviously former gymnasts

The athleticism was incredible...and the stunts were amazingly danegrous. They practice and practice..and try to mitigate the injuries..but when you're throwing someone 20 ft in the air (literally), there is little margin for error.

The whole spectacle wasn't sexy for me, per se...but entertaining nontheless

You are assuming the guys here are on the non sport side because cheerleaders are mostly women.

I said some. It's obvious who they are.

We can start with those that think Title IX was apparently the end of life as we know it in America.

This is akin to when we start talking about voting trends and, again, a small minority of people here, say the 19th Amendment was the downfall of this country.

So yeah, I think there is some (as I've qualified it all along) misogny at play here unfortunately.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel

We have a contender for the new term.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz

Doubtful. And she's probably still wearing clothes.

We can start with those that think Title IX was apparently the end of life as we know it in America.

Nice hyperbole.  Not the end of the country but a poor decision.  Especially if you are a guy who likes wrestling or playing baseball.

Women like sports just as much as men though right?  No gender differences at all.  To debate that makes one a woman hater.

Single women voted 70 to 29 for Owaffle.  Pointing that out doesn't make a guy a misogynist.  Even if he dares to, in most cases jokingly tie it to the 19th amendment.  Women are more liberal than men.  Particularly single women. 

Feminists... because if cheerleading were a sport, it would be counted for purposes of Title IX -- as it is, it's excluded -- and thus all those cheerleaders would be counted for purposes of determining parity and equality of resources and programs devoted to female athletes and thus might impinge on their quest to shut down more schools' male hockey programs for lack of an equivalent female hockey program.

Is it just me or does this actually not make sense? Wouldn't the feminists who want to shut down male sports programs OPPOSE defining cheerleading as a sport? If cheerleading were defined as a sport, then wouldn't the school be justified in more male sports to offset the surge in girls participating in sports? Am I missing something?

Those of us (purists?) who don't consider it a "sport" aren't arguing that there can't or shouldn't be some rules in place to protect cheerleaders from dangerous stunts.  I don't understand the argument that such rules can't be put in place unless it's officially classified as a sport.

It's not unusual for a sport to have multiple governing bodies with slightly different rules, but all with similar rules in place designed to protect participants.  I doubt the Canadian Football League lacks rules about ripping a quarterback's head off by the facemask.

Doesn't affect me if it's officially considered a "sport" or not.  I just don't like the fact that everything from ice dancing to interpretive dance to figure skating is a "sport" in the same way that footbal, baseball, hockey, boxing, etc are.

Posted by: ace at October 08, 2010 03:11 PM (t+Hrl)

I don't think would be  nanny state-ism for state athletics commissions...or orgs like the NCAA to put some curbs on what the cheerleaders are doing. It is dangerous..sport or not...and these kids are being forced to try to out do the other teams..

...and this out-doing consists generally of more dangerous and outlandish maneuvers.

Me?..I prefer post-pubescent curvy woman in skimpy outfits doing their sexy thing

Nice hyperbole.

Hmm. So what's this all about, "title ix which in my opinion is second only to the damn ADA law for stupidest law ever written and should be repealed in its entirety."

And stick around for the next wave of elections. Saying that women are more liberal than men in their voting patterns is just  a fact. Saying that women should be denied the vote because they don't see it our way it just ignorant. And you'll see a few rejects from hell here seriously making that claim.

While we're at it, let's take it away for blacks and Jews because they too vote in lockstep with the Dems.

White male property owners unite!

Neat!!

I see so much ass slapping in baseball, I'm starting to wonder whether it's not one of the fundamentals, such as tagging the base or hitting within the foul lines.  Does part of the rule book read like this:  "The inning changes after there are three outs and at least five asses have been slapped.  Play will not continue until the required number of asses have been slapped."

If they exclude cheerleading they get 1000 girls in other sports to the 1000 boys in sports.

Okay, I misread you when you said "You know who's the biggest block to making cheerleading a sport?" By "block", I thought you meant "group", as in "they're the biggest group supporting it".

My bad.

The Iditarod Race.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton

Maybe I missed this, but is there a reason why you keep putting it in quotes, ie, "cheer leading"?

The rugby players I had seen were generally the big, slow, not-quite-so-athletic, soft guys that could  not make the football team..

...they were more like frats and got their courage to play after drinking copious amounts of beer

...which always seemed to be Irish or Brit ales

Okay Hollowpoint. Way to focus on what really matters. And what matters, of course, is not avoiding spinal injuries for little girls, but your stupid idiosyncratic definition of a "true sport," because that latter determination, of course, has so much consequence for the world at large.

Why does it have to meet the Official Definition of a sport before action is taken to protect the girls?

You seem to making this argument that if and only if it's classified as a sport can such rules be put into place, and therefore if you don't agree that it's a sport, you don't give a shit about cheerleaders getting paralized for life.  I don't buy that premise.

I'd imagine that every cheer squad has a coach, meaning it is already school sanctioned; that implies responsibility on the part of the school.  You're right to bring the issue to light; action should be taken.  Why such action can only be taken if it's added to the list of "things that are official sports" I'm not seeing.

Middle class dudes in non-revenue sports like wrestling.

Who cares.

Wrestling scoring is subjective, too, right?

Posted by: toby928™ at October 08, 2010 03:50 PM (S5YRY)

....ever seen the outfits these chicks wear?

Posted by: Vic at October 08, 2010 03:34 PM (/jbAw)

The problem with Title IX is not what most consider its actual intent, which is increased athletic participation of girls, but in its implementation. 

The need for an equal number of girls and boys sports is kind of silly in my view especially if the "equal" means numbers participating.  Very few sports besides football include the potential for 50+ player rosters.  So that can be a hinderance to boys sports, all because the girl's volleyball team has no need for that many players.

But the real solution to Title IX has never been "increase the number of sports for girls" the solution is "cut the sports boys play until its 'fair'"  That is definite bullshit and has nothing to do with being a sexist.

Geez, Ace, I'm starting to think that if you had your way, the gladiators would've been a guy with a padded blunt stick and a shield versus another guy with a net and a pole with three boxing gloves affixed to one end -- at least at the amateur level.

Yes, it's dangerous. That's the attraction. That's what attracts participants, that's what attracts spectators. People who want "dance moves" and pretty uniforms are directed to marching band.

(No disrespect to the marching band intended, by the way.)

Hollowpoint: IIRC the show, basically if its not a sport, safety requirements don't get put in some book, without the book the coaches aren't required to be certified in safety, without certification spines snap.

yes, good caring coaches would get trained anyway, but there is also big business aspect to this, just get the money in the door.

Google "cheerleading association".  There already exist governing bodies; I'd guess that such organizations are the ones who hold, manage and regulate the competitions- there are already rules in place.

If the National Cheerleading Association (as a random example) governs a particular competition in which lax rules have lead to severe injury, how are they not responsible and/or liable?  What's preventing them and other such bodies from enacting such rules right now? 

The rugby players I had seen were generally the big, slow, not-quite-so-athletic, soft guys that could  not make the football team..

...they were more like frats and got their courage to play after drinking copious amounts of beer

...which always seemed to be Irish or Brit ales

Posted by: beedubya at October 08, 2010 03:46 PM (AnTyA)

--That's probably because in most colleges rugby is intramural or among clubs, rather than intervarsity.  Never played in a club, but by all accounts beer helps.

Don't forget the music selection and choice of outfits. That's really where it's at.

You left out use of "Spirit Fingers."

That's not what I was talking about

No it's exactly what you were talking about.

Applying the logic from some here, it's technically not a sport under the "cheer leading" standard, so there need not be any further discussion of unintended consequences of Title IX. It's a moot point.

And at my high school, marching band counted towards your "physical education" credits.  I did four years of marching band, and zero years of P.E.

I'm fairly certain cheerleading also counted for P.E. credits.

Drill team absolutely did.

And at my high school, marching band counted towards your "physical education" credits.  I did four years of marching band, and zero years of P.E.

I'm fairly certain cheerleading also counted for P.E. credits.

Drill team absolutely did.

Posted by: reason at October 08, 2010 04:04 PM (wEYaf)

At my school it counted towards your "art" credit.  Though concert and marching band were actually combined.  So being in it meant I didn't have to waste my time singing badly or drawing/painting even worse.

I see so much ass slapping in baseball, I'm starting to wonder whether it's not one of the fundamentals, such as tagging the base or hitting within the foul lines.  Does part of the rule book read like this:  "The inning changes after there are three outs and at least five asses have been slapped.  Play will not continue until the required number of asses have been slapped."

Let's see yew go nine innings of catching and pitching and not touch a single ass...

If the National Cheerleading Association (as a random example) governs a particular competition in which lax rules have lead to severe injury, how are they not responsible and/or liable?  What's preventing them and other such bodies from enacting such rules right now?

I think this should be the first item the new congress should address when it convenes in Jan.  We need to get our priorities straight. 

Applying the logic from some here, it's technically not a sport under the "cheer leading" standard, so there need not be any further discussion of unintended consequences of Title IX. It's a moot point.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at October 08, 2010 04:02 PM (deIzc)

--You're mixing standards.  My standard was based on tradition (the observation I read that golf is a game a few years ago got me to thinking); if the standard based on Title IX or safety demands cheer be called a sport, then it's a sport.  By another standard, Louisiana is called "Sportsman's Paradise," and that has nothing to do with the LSU Tigers but rather hunting or fishing for "sport" instead of just for survival.  Totally different discussions. 

Clarification:  marching band counted towards PE credits.  Concert band did not.  Marching band was fall semester only.  You needed four semesters of PE credit to graduate, so if you were gonna use marching band, you needed to do it all four years of high school.  And the director wouldn't allow you to only do fall-semester marching band...you had better be in spring-semester concert, as well.

I think considering it part of PE was legit.  Daily practices started in late July before school started, and ran clear on through to Thanskgiving.

Easily equivalent physical activity to a semester of flag-football in gym class.  3,000% reduction in standard high-school locker-room nonsense.

_{^{The rugby players I had seen were generally the big, slow, not-quite-so-athletic, soft guys that could  not make the football team..}}

_{^{...they were more like frats and got their courage to play after drinking copious amounts of beer}}

_{^{...which always seemed to be Irish or Brit ales}}

_{^{Posted by: beedubya at October 08, 2010 03:46 PM (AnTyA)}}

--That's probably because in most colleges rugby is intramural or among clubs, rather than intervarsity.  Never played in a club, but by all accounts beer helps.

Posted by: Y-not at October 08, 2010 02:07 PM (osFsP)

I was in the marching band and I did it competitively.

Just like band, cheerleading is not a sport, it's entertainment. Good entertainment needs to be creative and innovative. Innovation often pushes the limit and sometimes the limit pushes back.

Clarification:  marching band counted towards PE credits.  Concert band did not.  Marching band was fall semester only.  You needed four semesters of PE credit to graduate, so if you were gonna use marching band, you needed to do it all four years of high school.  And the director wouldn't allow you to only do fall-semester marching band...you had better be in spring-semester concert, as well.

I think considering it part of PE was legit.  Daily practices started in late July before school started, and ran clear on through to Thanskgiving.

Posted by: Barney Frank at October 08, 2010 04:19 PM (kC3nL)

That's exactly what it was when I was in HS. Sounds like you went to a Cailfornia school.

But I never called it a sport.

Me neither, Herr Morgenholz, but I think there's little appreciation to what all is involved. Playing a trumpet while walking is hard (and dangerous) enough until you get the hang of it, even without the hazards of other band members.

Then there's parade formation -- just keeping straight ranks and files while playing your instrument is a skill unto itself.

Then there's parade formation, marching at Circus World in Florida, in full uniform in near-90-degree heat, behind the elephants. That required athleticism.

Daily practices started in late July before school started, and ran clear on through to Thanskgiving.

Back in Texas, I thought those kids melting into the asphalt parking lot in July and August should be getting hazard pay.

Get your mitts offa me, Barney-sock!

I will also add, in case curious is still around - my daughter started dance when she was three.  It was largely little cutesy stuff, aww, look at them in their little pink tutus, trying to do little ballerina things.  She does it completely for fun, and will stick with it as long as she wants.  She is now six, and just this year expressed to Mrs. Reason that she's getting bored with ballet and wants to try one of the other styles taught instead.

No pressure to do anything beyond give it her best shot, and know the difference between "I don't want to do this because it is hard" versus "I don't want to do this because it isn't interesting anymore."

That really is a shame that your daughter (or was it a friend's?) had such a lousy experience, and felt very behind.  I attribute that to the school's pairing of her to the class-level.  Again, I'm sorry.

When the marching band throws members up into the air in musical sequence out on the field and requires performers to do flips and splits and jumps, then you can compare band with today's cheerleading.

Tell you what, maverick muse -- I'll watch your choice of Bring It On movie over the weekend if you watch Drumline. We can compare notes on Monday.

Posted by: Soona at October 08, 2010 04:29 PM (7DYKQ)

Hey!  Watch it!

Yep. Our local high school had a tragedy a couple of years ago where a cheerleader landed wrong and was paralyzed. 

Also, my sister was one of the tall cheerleaders in her squad in high school. The tall cheerleaders tend to have to hold a lot of weight for the mounts. She has had a back back since.

Mama AJ - I was in TX!  And yes, it sucked, starting off at 7:00AM when it is already 80° out...

It built character.  It really only sucks your freshman year.  You've learned to guzzle Gatorade for breakfast by your sophomore year, and by the time you're a junior, you've learned that true hell comes with the first 7:00AM practice after the first October cold-snap rolls through, and it's 45°...

Tell you what, maverick muse -- I'll watch your choice of Bring It On movie over the weekend if you watch Drumline. We can compare notes on Monday.

Posted by: FireHorse at October 08, 2010 04:33 PM (sWynj)

Wow, dual torture.  One of them self induced.

Then there's parade formation, marching at Circus World in Florida, in full uniform in near-90-degree heat, behind the elephants. That required athleticism.

HAHAHAHA!  Testify, my fellow band nerd!

after the first October cold-snap rolls through, and it's 45°...

I grew up in the SF Bay Area and took swim lessons on foggy summer mornings. Maybe it wasn't actually 45, but it was a wet cold...

I'm still getting used to the fact that football for 5 yr olds involves full pads and helmets. I'm really really in the south now!

Wow, dual torture.

Aw, c'mon -- it's not like I'm suggesting that anyone watch Glee -- and even that takes a measure of talent. I mean, my singing voice can ruin a song, but what they do on that show is like performing surgery with a peavey. I used to think of "Keep Me Hangin' On" as a Kim Wilde song -- it's a generational thing; Diana Ross is a bit before my time -- but after watching three minutes of Glee, I think of that song as the soundtrack of Heart of Darkness.

Wow, dual torture.

Aw, c'mon -- it's not like I'm suggesting that anyone watch Glee -- and even that takes a measure of talent. I mean, my singing voice can ruin a song, but what they do on that show is like performing surgery with a peavey. I used to think of "Keep Me Hangin' On" as a Kim Wilde song -- it's a generational thing; Diana Ross is a bit before my time -- but after watching three minutes of Glee, I think of that song as the soundtrack of Heart of Darkness.

Posted by: FireHorse at October 08, 2010 04:55 PM (sWynj)

You are suggesting watching a movie about the "hardcore" lifestyle that is involved in being a drummer in marching band complete with fights breaking out, and a movie about the seedy underside of competitive cheerleading mixed in with all the happy peppy-ness of cheerleading along with the hardass cheergirl eliza dushku though.  Definitely torture in my book.

I've always wondered about those moves where the girls get tossed way up in the air, looks way risky to me. I've felt in my gut that it is too unsafe, they shouldn't be doing that, even if it is neat to see and even though they've worked really hard to accomplish it. But that's always been overruled by the side that says, "Nah, some adult or organization must watch over that and have a handle on it, it can't possibly be as risky as it seems". And besides, I reflexively hate incursions by nanny type organizations or 'crats. 

Thanks - really - for a different perspective. 

In the end, though...High School / College cheerleaders know what they're getting into.  I would hazard a guess that this is why most of the "professional" cheerleading groups for sports teams are more drill-team than cheerleaders.

You know what you're signing up for.

Now, if you had a situation where the instructors / directors are MAKING these kids do these things against their will, using intimidation or whatnot, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

Posted by: reason at October 08, 2010 02:17 PM (L51+P)

Here's the thing: they're kids, and kids are stupid. That's why we don't let them drive or drink, even though they're physically able to.

This is the perfect example of why I can't stand libertarianism (speaking generally now, not just at you reason). Making a law mandating cheerleaders have safety equipment isn't the government sticking its nose in places it doesn't belong, it's common fucking sense.

I wholeheartedly concur that cheerleading should be a sport or something where there were better safety measures.  Some of the injuries are hideous, catastophic even -- now, I'm all for "if you are an adult, then you can sign up to take the risk"...but these high school and jr. high kids are not adults.  I hate seeing these kids doing things (encoraged by adults that should know better) that could really hurt them (and they'll do it, risk that sort of thing, for approval).

And my kids, from about age 13 onward, pilot 1000 lb. horses at a gallop around 1.5 mi. courses with jumps made out of telephone poles and railroad ties (look up "three day eventing" on youtube, they don't ride at the kindergarten division either, well, when they're 10...) -- just like their mom, grandma, and great-grandpa did/do (although I'm getting old and slowing down).  I know what a catastrophic injury looks like (look up "eventing rotational falls" on youtube).  I don't let my kids ride to their maximum until they are 18 -- not on my watch; it's dangerous enough.

When I was 4 I started pestering my mom for classical ballet lessons.  She actually checked into it (she didn't know anything about dance) and learned that the little girls who'd been put into the Bolshoi in Russia had literally bent their own bones because their muscles were so overdeveloped so young that they deformed their still-unfinished bones, and that children shouldn't take classical dance until the age of 7.

She told me I had to wait until I was 7 and if I still wanted to I could take classes.

I danced for six years until an injury blew my career, for which there was no comeback, back in the day.  I give mom credit, she found me a world-class orthopedic surgeon to see what could be done, and even he said it was over.

I was mad when I was 4, but as I limp into my middle years, having trouble crouching, getting up from the floor, etc., I remember that it ould have been way worse. . .

The most dangerous sport in high school and college is cheerleading, except it's not, because no one will call it a sport and therefore put efforts into increasing safety and the like.

There should be illegal moves in cheerleading, just as there are illegal moves in any sport. Like ice skating -- you can't do a backflip in competition.

Ice skating is not a sport either, so I think you just successfully argued against yourself there.

As far as being chucked 20' in the air being 'awesome' I frankly don't see it.

They're there to wear skimpy clothes, I think.

All the rest is superfluous. I could give two shits if they do jumping jacks or not.

One area where UFC gets it right. The chick in the bikini struts around holding the round number card, and then sits her ass down.

Posted by: Vic at October 08, 2010 03:36 PM (/jbAw)

It's actually worse then that. The impulse to add womens' sports has led to some real travesties against female students as well. Consider a Delaware case. Delaware State started a horseback riding team and offered more then a dozen scholarships for incoming students in order to form the team. At some point they realized the expense involved in riding and decided to start a womens' bowling team instead. The year had already begun so the riding team students had based their college choice on what amounted to a bait and switch.

Which re-enforces the case for cheer to be classified as sport. There is no way a judge with no agenda could have seen bowling and riding listed as sports and then disqualified cheer.

Which re-enforces the case for cheer to be classified as sport. There is no way a judge with no agenda could have seen bowling and riding listed as sports and then disqualified cheer.

Posted by: kidney at October 08, 2010 07:03 PM (ENRGu)

As I said, after viewing the actual regulation it is clear the judge was FOS and had an agenda. 

411 It's about protecting kids.  Once you're 18 imho, you can make your own choice to engage in potentially dangerous activities, but there really shouldn't be pressure put on kids when they are (supposedly) under the protection and guidance of adults to be routinely engaging in something as clearly dangerous as this has gotten.

Just because a bunch of dried up old scrunt feminists want to make sure the school has women's lacrosse and/or hate cheerleaders.

401 And riding is a sport; as stated above, search Youtube "three day eventing" and "rotational falls"; it isn't for people who aren't in shape or for the weak of heart.  Actually, riding is one sport that can balance Title 9: women and men compete against each other...and feminists hate it too.  Most riding teams are on their own and have to come up with their own money; a lot of the coaches volunteer time, because the teams can't pay the full rate; a lot of times the more advanced riders end up coaching.  I know -- I was captain of my riding team...we got no help from the school, had to hold bake sales and car washes, start a savings fund...it was really shoestring; a couple of times we took tents and camped out at the shows -- try doing that in late October.  Irony of it was, we were the most successful team on campus -- didn't even rate a couple of lines at the bottom of the sports page until one of our riders had a bad fall and landed in the emergency room.

Call it "Team Synchronized Gymnastics" and explain to people that they show up on Friday nights for the football games as a dress rehearsal or "walkthrough" for their Saturday competitions - then it would be considered a sport. 

Most people here get wrapped up in the "cheerleader" label and what a totally different thing that label meant to us who went to HS in the 70's and 80's than from what is happening now.

If it's considered a sport it gets funded differently and would be safer for the young ladies particpating in it.  Another instance of feminism being a political movement and having nothing to do with actually representing females.

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