Your washing machine thinks that warm is 100 F, and hot is 140 F.

Goos job P.A.  Most of the tankless installations I've seen or read about locate the tankless unit near the use point, like in the bathroom.  It looks like you located you tankless unit where the old water heater used to be.

How long are your hot water lines? Have you considered insulating the hot water lines?  Also, have you considered getting (an) adjustable shower head(s) that will close down to very fine spray? This might make a lot of difference, since a 15-minute shower uses a lot of hot water.

OT tip.

Big explosion at a power plant in Middletown, CT. There are reports that the plant was leveled. FOX is covering it now.

The plant is the old Middletown Station which was run by NU but is being identified as being run by Kleen Energy now.

Posted by: laceyunderalls wearing #18 at February 07, 2010 01:22 PM (jKLHu)

Posted by: laceyunderalls wearing #18 at February 07, 2010 01:22 PM (jKLHu)

I once pulled a shoe thread. Big mistake.

Thanks a lot arshole...  my frigin wife read this!  And she hates our gas co.

But good chit.. i guess. ; )

These things were notorious, in the Dark Ages 10 years ago, for coking up with the minerals they distilled onto their heating elements. The jump from line temperature to user temperature, happening all at once, was enough to dump lime and (otherwise perfectly safe) dissolved solids. This made their service life laughable.

The solutions (see what I did there) were to ultra-filter and condition the water on the way in (often uneconomical because of the cost of filter elements), or to boost the temperature twice, in smaller increments. If you used this big one to do half the jump, then used at-point small units to deliver just what you want at each tap or water-using room, you might avoid condensing the minerals.

You could try a water analysis (probably free from a water-softener salesman) to vind out how vulnerable you are, or shut it down after a few weeks and inspect the "coils." Don't wait too long to check, or you'll have more mineral than you can dissolve with household products.

Tip I learned from a plumber, stuff bread in the pipe to absorb the dribbling water, sweat the joint.  When you open the valve, the bread will dissolve and come out through the faucets.  Remember to take off the aerators on the faucets.  Bonus: smells like toast while you're soldering.

Posted by: laceyunderalls wearing #18 at February 07, 2010 01:22 PM (jKLHu)

we have one, around here we call that the ONT

 Also, have you considered getting (an) adjustable shower head(s) that will close down to very fine spray?

If I remember reading correctly the unit turns on when X amount of water flows through. An adjustable shower head might not have enough flow on fine spray.

Posted by: PepeLp at February 07, 2010 01:48 PM (Lz/C6)

The technology has improved a lot in recent years or so I'm told.

At 0.09/Kw I would think a standard heater would be very cost compeditive.  Our rates here are 0.07/Kw though.

I just put in a new water heater last spring. Now my hot water pressure is kind of weak. Any morons know why?

You had to have introduced a restriction in the line somewhere.

How difficult would it be to replace or supplement your electrical needs using kinetic energy, converted in to DC? For instance a treadmill hooked up to a gear box which turns a large flywheel connected to a generator.

You would have to ask Rube Goldberg.

Seriously you could not generate much of anything but sweat from a treadmill. You would be better off with solar if you want to get off the grid.

You had to have introduced a restriction in the line somewhere.

This could be a mineral deposit as well, right?

First you have to find an AC battery...

Salesmen of dodgy products (I'll use European multi-motor washing machines and dishwashers as an example) love to tell you that "the technology has improved a lot in recent years."  Not that it doesn't, eventually, but I always ask them to be a little more specific. "It's new and improved" just don't cut it.

My gas pedal is connected to my carburetor with a steel rod. 

Posted by: Arbalest at February 07, 2010 01:21 PM (JnWYr)

Quit jerking off in there?

Quit jerking off in there?

Posted by: hutch1200 at February 07, 2010 02:08 PM (b/NWO)

I'm not necessarily alone, she doesn't want to get her hair wet, so certain procedures must be followed.

It's all part of my effort to conserve water and energy here in California.

I know you hate the gas company, but seriously, an electric stove just can't compare to the awesomeness of a gas stove.  (That is, if you're really into cooking).

Gas gives you more temperature control, but I am too big a fan of ceramic top stoves to give them up.  Our house is total electric anyway and I don't care for gas appliances as is -- just personal preference.

Re the tankless heater: when our water heater gives out on us we plan to replace it with a tankless (or two).  I've researched them online before but it's nice to read about the experience from someone sorta familiar.

O/T

I am watching the Sarah Palin interview on Commie Wallace's show. She let him get away with quating Obama's 4th quarter economy numbers and unemployment numbers without challenging him on them. The question was "should he get credit..".

My answer would have been not until we get the final numbers and they do turn out to be an improvement. I owuld have said I don't believe those numbers or anything else that comes out of that Adm.

Posted by: 48%er at February 07, 2010 01:24 PM (Nu1ow)

George Bush

I would be reluctant to put solar panels on top of a house in South Florida. At .09/KW you would already never reach payoff before they needed replacing and the first hurricane that came along would get rid of them for you.

P.A. if your attic gets hot enough to heat water to scalding you need an attaic ventilator fan. We have a lot of days here in the summer above 100°F and my attic doesn't get that hot.

If you can install a roof-mounted solar water heating system, a 200+ gallon insulated tank(s) in your house and a pump or two to circulate water, you can handle a lot of your heating and cooling needs. The large insulated tanks are needed to absorb the energy yet keep the water temperature below 160-180deg F.

If you can ignore the occasional political nonsense, read "Home Power" (still bi-monthly IIRC) for an example or two of home installations; usually a main article on an off-grid PV installation, plus other writeups on other installations

hutch1200: I did not know you are married. Apologies.

That's not a resounding endorsement PA. I was thinking of replacing mine but I have heard mixed reviews on how well they work.

Thanks

Posted by: Filly at February 07, 2010 02:07 PM (FDfio)

Interesting, I saw the same thing, and I was thinking that the talking idiot was a conduit of ignorance.

Wow P/A...I thought I was cool by putting a "found" glass holding tank ahead of my  gas water heater. BTW..My gas rates went down 20%, while my electricity rate went up 20%. Here in the NE it's a tough call on which utility to go with. 

BTW way P/A..I've got a line on a MINT, well stored, M/B, non turbo, diesel, manual trans 4 seat, 2 door coupe' from the early late '80's. Thanks to your noledge thet yu hf pud upin mi.

Posted by: Rocks at February 07, 2010 02:26 PM (yguwr)

They make them.

My new house is going to have geothermal and apparently you can get a superheater for those to heat your water.  Anyone had experience with those?

Are you talking about the stuff like they have in Northern CA?  If so you should think again. From what I have heard the corrosion problems are endemic.

Since you are in So Fla  you might consider installing a holding tank on your roof, eight months out of the year solar power will pre-heat the water, maybe not to 'hot' but enough to help limit the current usage of the actual heater.  You will need to install a bypass for winter months.

Those tanks are on the roof of just about every building along the Mediterranean and also most of southeast asia.

PA, if I only could   have married a handy man...BUT my plumber is hunky.  and when i get him working in my little powder room & i get in there with him & shut the door....my husband thinks i'm insane....

see, a home improvement thread every once in a while is great.  but let's not talk about fixing cars.

My husband and I just remodeled our bathroom.  We figured we saved around 15 grand doining it ourselves

Sooo..you're proud of screwing the "saved or created" job market.? Damn hater!/sarc

Probably stating what is obvious, be sure you get a good quality glass electric cook top.  You'll love it. Only drawback I found is 'burners' don't put out the high BTUs of a gas burner, so something like stirfry is kinda iffy, but that's a minuscule complaint compared to the convenience of the top. I wouldn't to back to gas on a bet.

Hear hear.  We had a Kenmore for years and that thing was just wonderful.  I used a wok pan for stir fry and had no problems.  We're going to remodel our kitchen hopefully within the next year and another one of those is on the list.

I'd also recommend a Kenmore French door fridge; ours is da bomb.

In other enviro-whacko news from Chicago:

Waterless urinals installed to promote water conservation in the public men's room outside the City Council chambers have turned into a stinky mess. The odor got so bad that the "green" urinals are now being ripped out and replaced with the old-fashioned kind at a cost City Hall has refused to disclose.

http://tinyurl.com/yke3evm

We are going to remodel the kitchen next.  I have a glass top electric stove now but wanted a gas.  Are the electric ones better?

It just depends on your preference.  It's easier to control flame size and temp with gas, and professional kitchens always have gas for these reasons as well as the need to adjust temperatures constantly depending on the dish they're making at the moment...but that's not really necessary in a home setting. 

I prefer electric glass tops because they're safer, you don't have to worry about flame-outs when your back is turned, they're far easier to maintain, and if you know how to use electric your results will be just as good as gas burners. 

It's been my experience that gas ovens have a greater tendency to dry out foods and yield uneven results than electric ones, and that opinion comes from me and family members who've used both over the years.

Basically, electric is better in a home setting and gas is better for pros, IMO, due to safety and maintenance issues.

Posted by: David Paterson at February 07, 2010 03:10 PM (5I0Yr)

I saw it coming.

Shibumi, we may be quibbling over some antics here, but my definition of society collapsing on us kind of rules out gas and electric water heaters. If you get what I mean. Building a wood-fired steam engine from scratch, welding with charcoal you ricked yourself, is more in the EOTWAWKI line of country.

Now a well-digger, or a drain-side excavator, or a butcher...those are guys worth knowing. Especially the ones who can work without power tools. 

No offense intended to domestic-supply plumbers and line-voltage electricians, but when Civilisation goes, you're out of work with everyone else.   

No offense intended to domestic-supply plumbers and line-voltage electricians, but when Civilisation goes, you're out of work with everyone else.   

Posted by: comatus at February 07, 2010 03:18 PM (/VEEI)

I know how to blacksmith. How to process game animals and woodworking. I can probably make a bow and arrows from animal and tree, certainly a spear. Plus I know how to Knap flint, so if it is the Stone Age I am well prepared.

Holger, please, date night is on the ONT. Yes, I built my entire house myself. We are all wonderful guys here. Some of us can recite a mean epic saga, too.

Sonnyspats @160, please, please be just as careful as mice with that. I think I smell smoke already. Do you know the gauge of the wire from your dryer to the main panel? You better.

I can't get my pics to come up it says my text is too long. 

162  Have you ever done this before.  We are thinking about going off the grid completely and using our gas well to run things?

You should also tell people to isolate the house from the grid by tuning off the main breaker when doing this. Don't want to fry the power line repairman.

If he doesn't the generator will likely trip out on overload anyway as he tries to power the entire neighborhood. He also needs to open every breaker in the house and then only close those that power small loads.

Most home generators are no bigger than 5KW (4.5 usable). You can not power a lot with that.

We are going to remodel the kitchen next.  I have a glass top electric stove now but wanted a gas.  Are the electric ones better?

I grew up with gas and then had a bunch of cheap electric coil stoves and hated them.

I'm getting used to the glass tops. If you get a good one, it's not too bad when you need to adjust the temp.

Just clean them all the time because it's a pain to get 10 layers of crap off 'em.

It's enough to run my fan so my GAS heat can heat my house!

Also keeps my beer cold!

Yes, you can run a fan, a light, the refer, and maybe even a freezer provided they all do not try to start at once (starting current is a bitch).

I would not try to run any more than that though. Assuming the dryer outlet is on a 15 amp breaker you can not run more than 10 or 12 amps.

53 For those of you who are experienced in the field of electrical applications, I have a question.

How difficult would it be to replace or supplement your electrical needs using kinetic energy, converted in to DC? For instance a treadmill hooked up to a gear box which turns a large flywheel connected to a generator.

In my post apocalyptic world, I would like to be self reliant, using a combination of solar, kinetic, wind, etc.

This can work, but first you have to find a really fuking big hamster.

My current home improvement project is dealing with neglected and filthy woodwork.

I've got a ton of woodwork and it is:

-different shades/colors in the same room

-chipped/scratched/attacked with a long sword, I'd swear

-grey in the master bath and next to the dishwasher from the steam

-dirty, filthy and gross

-splashed and splattered with paint

Other than that, it looks great...

Just a caution to those considering tankless: It's not always a sure economic bet. Don't believe what the sales materials say. Your mileage may vary.

Not sure where I saw it, but there was a neutral-party comparison posted online of a gas-fired tankless heater vs. a new, well-insulated tank-style gas heater. It would be more than a decade until the installation costs (bigger exhaust vent, for one) of the tankless heater caught up. Insulation has improved over the years. A blanket wrap can do wonders on top of that.

Also, I live in a climate like PA's, and in summer the heater in the attic doesn't have to work very hard.

Not dissing what PA has done, of course. That's some fine-looking handiwork.

is there an easy way to clean them?  Mine is white and I seem to always have a brown burn mark that I can't get off of them.

I would buy the "glass top cleaner" and let it sit in a little puddle on a bad stain. Then you just have to keep rubbing it forever. (that's what he said)

In our old house, we'd bought a new stove with a shiny black top and I obsessed with it looking perfect when we were trying to sell the house. Our current stove already has scratches and I am, perversely, much happier using it.

I have a "Hugo" generator, I am sure you remember!  I never use the dryer connection.  I pull the meter off and connect to the house side of the meter.  That way there is NO way the line runs back.  Then I use the circuit breakers to decide what to run.

Oh yes, I remember Hugo; I was without power for about 5 days. Since then I have had my meter base replaced with a combination meter base/breaker panel.  I have several large spare breakers on the the panel that I have been considering for use in providing an input for a generator. I would open the breaker that has the feed coming in from the meter base and close the breaker for the generator (after opening all the breakers in the house). I just haven't yet come up with enough justification for doing that.

The problem with pulling the meter base is getting soemone out there to reconnect it, plus they do not like that when you pull it yourself.

I was more concerned about what the sudden surge of electricity would do to my generator when the power did come back on.

I'm surprised you got it to work at all without killing the feed into the house from the lines.  There are usually at least 3 houses on every transformer unless you are in an isolated area. I also don't think there is anythng on a transformer to isolate the backfeed to the rest of the line system.

Mine is white and I seem to always have a brown burn mark that I can't get off of them.

They make a ceramic glass top cleaner that gets the brown stuff off without scratching the surface.  I've also used it on pots with similar stains.

And when the power's out (and I've had it out overseas, once for 9 days and once for 10 days) we just fired up our propane barbeque grill in the backyard for meals.  We also had a generator and we ran that for basic electrical needs like lighting and fans.

let's say...hypothetically...I've got this friend and he, um, screwed up his tax return. And let's say, hypothetically, my friend made a $649 mistake, in his favor.

They may very well find the error in a couple years. That happened once with an error I'd made and once when the state people were checking up on something I hadn't done wrong.

So your friend might want to be prepared for this and not count on receiving every penny of next year's return or whatever.

Mine had a broken seal for about two years, Duke never said a word and finally replaced the seal.

My understanding was that they were cracking down on that due to the amount of fraud going on with people trying to jumper around the meters. That being said, they have gone to a new system here that has an "electronc" meter that they can just drive down the street and it will transmit the readings to a hand-held computer device that logs it.  They don't even get out of the trucks anymore.

They did that after I retired so I haven't had an opportunity to discuss it with any of the linecrew people.

Also, if I got caught doeing that it would be grounds for getting fired immediately.  Hell, they even fired one girl in the front office who was late on her bill payment.

Heh. This talk of meter-pulling reminds me of my barrio friends in high school. Their dads would pull their meter on hot summer nights and turn it upside-down. Then they'd run the AC full-blast all night and the meter would turn backward.

Now TXU is installing digital meters in preparation for instituting peak-demand rates. The meters send a signal upline every 15 minutes, so no monkeying will go undetected.

One other consequence of the digitals is, many of the old meters were so worn-down they were greatly undercounting the megawatt-hours. So some people's bills ramped up dramatically when the new meter went in. I suspect there will be a lot of insulation sales in my neighborhood this year.

President of Duke lived behind me, and he vowed our neighborhood would be the last to get power and we were. 

Wow, you must live in a ritzy neighborhood!

If you're paying someone to do the work, the payback period would probably be forever.  For me, in tropical south FL, it works because I was able to get away with the smaller unit, knew how to do all the work, got the unit cheap, and the gas company's "customer charge" was 2X what FPL's was.

You and I are blessed that way. My father grew up on a farm where they had to fix everything themselves, and he passed on a certain fearlessness to me when it comes to taking things apart and rebuilding them.

They must have had some strange meter bases if you could "turn the meter upside down".

Two prongs, like a giant 110 plug. Ours had three (I pulled it to investigate), so it wouldn't turn at all if reversed. But power still flowed.

I don't think it is possible to reverse the meters they use here. I have seen mine disconceted and it down't look like the prongs would align correctly, e.g. you can only install it one way.

Besides that, with these new ones that are digital it probably would have some kind of alarm transmitted if you tried it.

let's say...hypothetically...I've got this friend and he, um, screwed up his tax return. And let's say, hypothetically, my friend made a $649 mistake, in his favor.

If the goverment figures it out they'll be kicking in your friend's door bro.

The way he described these things I wouldn't be surprised if they could stop the electricity to your house or the water or the gas if they decided you were using too much of it. 

That is part of Obama's "smart grid" and yes, the purpose is to stop electricity during hours of peak demand. That way they can build fewer power plants.

The reduce the afternoon and morning peaks by rotating blackouts to indivdual houses.

BTW, that is a real BS solution because, as I posted in the other thread, mom and pops light bulbs are not the major energy use in this country.

The major energy use goes to industrial places with big motors and commercial places with big A/C units tons of lights.

Posted by: Amish Jack at February 07, 2010 03:14 PM (IhHdM)

mine has a simmer mode. Gas > electric.

Weeeelll, our self-cleaning oven is currently stinking up the whole house. I've never had one before and this is the first time we've used it. Glad it's 54 degrees and not 32, since we had to open up the house...blech.

But if you read the container it talks about how it has polymers and stuff. Pretty similar to the label on the crappy wax/wash products for your car.

If your "friend" tries it, be sure to let us know if you, er he has a nice waxy shine.

Also, if I got caught doeing that it would be grounds for getting fired immediately.  Hell, they even fired one girl in the front office who was late on her bill payment.

OT but check out this fundraiser for Tim D'Annunzio a Republican running for congress in North Carolina. He was with the US Army Golden Knight parachute team.

http://tinyurl.com/ylqfh7z

I installed the highest capacity Bosch tankless water heaters (2700ES) in both a house and an adjoining carriage house I built for my son.

When I went to test the systems, I found the flow to be so small that it would take an hour to fill a small Jacuzzi tub.  Even though the unit was rated for about 8 gallons a minute, you were lucky to get 2 out of 56 degree incoming water with the unit set to 125 degrees.

After finally reading all the information, I found the only really successful applications use multiple tankless units hooked up in series, all giving about a 40 degree rise.

I had the units ripped out and replaced with high-efficiency gas fired tank type heaters linked in series with desuperheaters coming off of the geothermal heat pumps (Heat Controller GeoMax 2 stage).  The geothermal (open) systems donÂ’t give the savings they were supposed to either.

Is it just me?

AND looks like you did have some pull!!  5 Days!!

No pull, most people where I lived got it back in around 5 days. I understand some of the people out in the country in isolated areas went for a while though.

Average time to restore was 5 days.

If the average time to restore following a hurricane was 5 days then you were doing damn good. And most utitlities no longer try to maintain huge fleets of trucks for these things anymore.

What they do now is form working groups where several utilities pool their resources and help one another out during hurricanes and other such events.

What they typically do is call out all the crews and pre-stage them just outside the storm track region, then pour in when the storm passes. 

Ironically, if they would kill power before the storm came though it would probably take a lot less time to restore and it would be cheaper. But due to the large number of lawyers standing by to litigate they will NOT kill power on their own, they let God do that. The lawyers haven't won a case against God yet.

 Oh, shit "the one" is on the Super Bowl pre game pitching his health care bill.  Does this asshole have no shame?

I find it so interesting that he suggests that he didn't know that it was hard to get things through congress and that the legislatures wanted stuff. But then again he wasn't there much.

He is lying about the lobbyists and the earmarks again

Today, a large part of the population has become dependent on specialists to do everything for them (at much higher cost).

PA I think the real problem is that in most parts of the country people are not allowed to do this kind of stuff.  I can get away with it as long as I work on my own stuff and it is downstream of the main breaker box.  But that is because we are not a code State.

Although the county has recently gone to code inspectrions so I don't know how that effects this kind of stuff. I do know for a project like yours it would have required a plan to be submitted and an inspection by the county inspector.

Net result, they would have charge you 1% of the cost of the job for his inspection and the review of the preplans. I do not know if they would require a licensed electrician to do the work or not.

let's say...hypothetically...I've got this friend and he, um, screwed up his tax return. And let's say, hypothetically, my friend made a $649 mistake, in his favor

Go ahead and file an amended 1040 and pay up. It will be cheaper in the long run and will avoid audits in the future.

253

I live in his district. I saw several of the R's running speak at the Concord Republican meeting a couple of months ago. Tim and a guy name Lou Huddleston impressed me. I was leaning towards Lou but have not seen him do any more campaigning or ads. Tim runs ads quite a bit. I won't be in town on the 11th but will send him some money.

If the average time to restore following a hurricane was 5 days then you were doing damn good.

Hmm, maybe buying a generator would be a good idea.

Hmm, maybe buying a generator would be a good idea.

Absolutely if you live in an area subject to hurricanes. I am over 120 miles from the beach and I got hit by Hugo. They said that was a 100 year event, so unless I live to be 200 I should not get hit again.

We lose power here more due to ice storms and drunks running into the power poles.

Posted by: curious at February 07, 2010 04:52 PM (p302b)

I veiw this as mostly just another tax and a way to get someone's nephew a job.

This area was "non-code" for 300 years without any problem. All of a sudden we just had to have this. 

The utility did require the wiring to the main panel from the meter base be inspected or installed by a licensed electrician or they would not connect to it.

280 ouch

Is Obama off, is it safe to turn on the TV?

I'm going to have to figure out a way to block him.

Posted by: lopinslow at February 07, 2010 04:54 PM (EBHoD)

A couple of kilowatts bare minimum.

My friend who bought the house before the bubble and had his hot water heater go just brought a new battery powered generator.

Do you mean 6 lead acid batteries feeding an invertor to supply houshold stuff?  It would be good dependable power for a few loads for a while but expensive as rip. Plsu you would have to replace the batteries about every 2 to 3 years.

How big of a generator do you need to run an average size house?

Posted by: lopinslow at February 07, 2010 04:54 PM (EBHoD)

A couple of kilowatts bare minimum.

Depends on what you plan on running. The size of the house is immaterial, it is the number of appliances you plan on trying to run at the same time. A 2KW generator will not carry a lot, maybe a light and the refer. A 5 KW will carry more but not everything in the house.

If you wanted to run the house just like normal and you have an all electric house I would say at least 25 to 30 KW which is cost prohibitive for most people.

Yesterday when our power was out for 15 hours and the temp was heading down was the first time I ever wanted a generator. I started thinking which furniture I didn't like because I only had paper logs.

Today we found a nice new blackberry type phone at the bottom of the snow in the driveway. Because it was frozen down there it hadn't gotten wet. I tried to figure out who it belonged to but didn't recognize the guy as hardly anyone comes through this culdesac. I called sprint and they tracked him down. Turned out that it belonged to the nearby firefighters who came at the height of the blizzard at 2 am to raise a bowed powerline in front of my house. He was so happy I had found him and I was so happy they had taken care of us in the middle of the night. He insisted on coming here and I'm waiting for him now but I would have walked through the deep snow to give it back once I found out who it belonged to and what they had done as I slept.

I am over 120 miles from the beach and I got hit by Hugo.

Hell, I remember Hugo and I was in Philly!

Tornados are our biggest worry. There's still a lot of damage in our neighborhood from the welcoming one that hit when we moved in back in October.

The electrical lines to most of the neighborhood are underground, but ours runs behind the houses in between everyone's trees! Since it was only a few houses, they fixed a lot of big problems before they got to ours; still less than 30 hours, though.

It seems there weren't enough electricians to go around and the woman was beside herself saying she was sorry but that was the way it had to be.

That's the lawyers at work again.

I would probably need a 30w then. I am looking to get a eurocizer which cost about a thousand a month to run so it would be worth it.

WTF is a "eurocizer" and why would it cost $1000.oo/mo to run?  If it doesn use that much electricity you need a lot more than 30W or is that a typo?

Until last year I had no idea that self-cleaning the oven made such a huge stinky smokey horror show. Now, I'll only do it on a nice day so I can seal off the kitchen and open the windows and doors and put fans in there. ugh.

 Dagny,

Good work!  Make him some cookies to take to the fire house!

You know what was funny? The sprint lady that was on the line with us started crying.

I will make them something but don't have a chance today. I'll take it over next week.

Posted by: lopinslow at February 07, 2010 05:15 PM (EBHoD)

If it uses $1000.00 a mo in electricity you do not want a generator to power it because it costs more to generate it yourself than they can sell it to you for.

Until last year I had no idea that self-cleaning the oven made such a huge stinky smokey horror show.

And now I know!

Didn't help that last time the power went off, I accidentally set the over the stove microwave to vent to the room...

My step-father once hit the "self-clean" button  with something in the oven and couldn't make it stop and unlock. Not good.

 have a gas well that is strong enough to power a small city.  I was planning to get a gas generator

Now you ARE lucky. Hell I would get a big industrial size generator and go off the grid entirely. Hell, if you have free fuel you have all you need.

Tornados are our biggest worry. There's still a lot of damage in our neighborhood from the welcoming one that hit when we moved in back in October.

I noticed they got the fences fixed on the east side of Airline but there are still a lot of blue tarps of roofs.

You shouldn't worry too much about tornadoes; we've been here 5 years now and that was the closest call so far.

Way to go Purp. 

Just for future reference, if you have water dribbling through the line you can wad up some bread and push it down the pipe to stop it long enough to get the soldering done.  I don't know what the internals of the hot water heater you put in, so I don't know if it would have worked in that case.  I too am  a big fan of ball valves. 

Frankly, If I could find a way to get completely off the grid I would.  The wife and I are too damn spoiled.  Pool, fountains electric energy vultures all around my house.  We use 50% more electric than the average high user.  When it comes to gas we use 50% less than the average low user.  I need to do some research around here.

Sidebar, I think a viable business could be made making real energy studies on homes using a FLIR and amp probes.

Yeh, the fire-damaged places are still a mess and my kids know we're almost home when they see blue tarp roofs. I still need to get our trees taken care of.

I'm glad it's not a big problem! The weather radio goes nuts with tornado warnings and watches whenever there are t-storms, but I guess it's for a pretty large area.

Having that storm hit so close, so soon after we moved in, before we were the least bit prepared has made me pretty paranoid.

Well, more and specifically paranoid, at least.

Oh, a small cost saving idea, then I am getting off the computer.

I wash all our clothes in cold water. Consumer Reports ranked Tide Cold Water as almost the best, without costing a lot per load.

Probably doesn't save a lot, but why pay extra?

Thats what we where thinking about doiing, just not sure how big of a generator to get for everything we run.

Since you are likely to have to go to an industrial size gnerator for this "eurocizer" thing anyway I would have a rep come out and inspect you setup.

You don't want to go too big or too small. I am not an expert on industrial size gas generators but I am for diesels. There is a thing called "souping" that occurs when you run a large diesel under loads too small. This is where the fuel doesn't combust entrirely in the generator and starts combusting in the exhaust. Bad juju.  There may be something similar to that for a gas generator as well or other consideratins that I know nothing about.

One way to fiure out more is to take your own readings on your meter on an hourly basis (or as much as you can) through a normal few days of load. Do it on separate days with different outside temps.

Once you figure the total load divide it by the elapsed time during the intervals measured. That should give you some idea.

Posted by: Kemp at February 07, 2010 05:40 PM (2+9Yx)

PA I think you are overanalyzing it.  It is simple. If you go up to a town like Saratoga Springs, NY and look at the roof slope on the average residential house and then come down to Raleigh, NC and compare it to the slope of the average roof there it will be much steeper in NY vs NC.

This kind of local building existed long before codes and standards and it was based on best local practices from experience. These practices also have a certain amount of built in margin.

What has happened here is VA is getting their "100 year snow" and those houses which had little margin for one reason or another (poor upkeep most likely) are collapsing.

If I lived up there right now and did not have a steep slope roof I would be taking steps to keep the roof swept off more than my driveway.

Tinian, I doubt if that was souping but I have seen something similar, at least on film.

An idiot from up North directed the exhaust on the heat seaking missiles on the Enterprise and cause a huge fire and mutiple deaths.

The Navy wasn't happy.

Hell, if you have free fuel you have all you need. ...

Locks at the muni yard are easily cuttable.

BTW..regarding labeling wires. When I worked in Telco, I labeled everything at the pole, and everywhere possible inside. Took me 7 minutes, total. I still have guys thanking me for doing that. Even a tone generator won't tell you EVERYTHING.

Since we are/were on the subject of roofs, does anyone have any experience with metal roofs (standing seam sheet, and old-style corrugated iron; in either case, thick material, 12- or 10-ga) in hurricanes? There's something to be said for building a place, and I've been looking at various methods for quite some time. But the discussion on roofing material is always simple: slate, clay tile, asphalt shingle, occasionally metal.

It's been a while since I was in either tornado-like or hurricane-like weather.  I've seen old farm houses and buildings from the '20s, maybe earlier, with corrugated iron roofs that look original and in good condition (allowing for state-of-repair).  A favorable sign.  A switch to stainless will end rust issues, and a couple of volts will keep birds and rodents away. Collected rainwater from this roof should be relatively clean.

I saw an article in "Fine Homebuilding" some years ago on a metal roof where the metal was attached to 2x4s on edge. This gave about 3.5" of air circulation space, and kept the plywood away from the hot metal (there was also the usual paper overlay and an additional 3/8" reflective insulation pad added over the plywood). Screens top and bottom keep vermin out, a top cap keeps water and wind out, and covering on the bottom keeps wind out. But this was not in an area with 150kt wind potential.

Any information/experiences?

The best deal for me was to go with a recirculating pump used during peak hot water usage.  Tankless is okay IF one places the shower, etc. just under the tank.  O'wise it's a long, long wait for hot water.

Good savings; qualifies for the guvmint rebates. Instant heat; easy installation.

O/T:  I am seriously concerned that an average looking person who might be a little overweight might not be able to be elected to anything in our over looks conscious society. Curious

See NJ Governor Elect Chris Christie.

Druid: Thanks for the sugestions. "Kynar Metal Roofing" points to a manufacturer who has experience in Florida.  It looks like the wind rating is a manufacturer's/architect's/installers issue, and simply a selection for the consumer.  I'll hacve to read some more

Tinian: The old-style corrugated iron material looks, viewed on end, like something between a sine wave and alternating half-rounds, is usually galvanized, and is usually much thicker than current standing seam sheetmetal.  It's prevalent on small farm buildings built in the 60's and earlier.  I've seen buildings where the sheetmetal itself must be 70 years old and would still be leak-free if the building had been kept in repair.  In many cases, the metal was simply nailed to wood, with no thought for thermal movement, and the nails and washers have worked loose.

I figured this would be an inexpensive way to get a roof that is essentially maintenence-free for 50+ years, and with the proper design would keep birds and animals away thus shedding clean water into a collection system.