1 She could put on an act, maybe behave like a subservient maid or orderly when locals were present.

When locals were present there was no need for her to be in the room at all.
Since when do station chiefs actually get their hands dirty?

2 For that matter why the hell were 7 officers even in the same room with this guy?

"I don't want to say we're clueless, but we are. We're no more than fingernail deep in our understanding of the environment," the officer said.

Well yeah, when you consider people like Valerie Plame are Operations Officers that makes a lot of sense.

3 Clearly, they are racists trying to embarrass the president. That is the only possible explanation.

4

How long has the CIA been out of touch and not terribly effective? I don't ever remember the CIA being terribly effective. Since the mid to late 50's, or there abouts, maybe? Is that about the time the last of the OSS "cowboys" were put out to pasture and replaced with college educated professionals.

 

5 The CIA is incadescently incompetent, and has been for decades. Stuff like this is the inevitable result of decades of making personnel choices on the basis of diversity and other PC crap instead of competence.

6

>> How long has the CIA been out of touch and not terribly effective?

Since the Church committee hearings and the fallout from that.

7 Very surprised these guys are the best of the best. How can you possibly trust a Muslim. I mean you are a CIA officer you deal in gray areas all the time. No? Please tell me how can you trust someone who can wake up any morning and decide to more religious and follow the Koran to a T. We are the infidels always has been and always will be. At arms length people you cannot trust them, they will silt your throat in a heartbeat. Now I am talking about living her in the states. Overseas, please Dear Lord tell me the guys on ourside are a lot more savy than this. Man what a tragedy who the heck is running the joint come guys you know this was wrong wrong wrong. You are on their turf in their battle zone their ways their customs their people their religion their country their stinking dirt hole! Please please tell how could we possibly not think anything is possible and probable.?

8 Jim, at one time they could at least arrange the timely plane crash for somebody who needed to go away. Now, not even that.

9 Hmm, what all do we know about the CNAS? Looks to me like they have a toe in each pool, so to speak. This may be a perfectly accurate assessment, but no paper from a think tank is undirected. CIA is down -- who benefits most by kicking them right now? Well I think we all know the answer to that one.   

10

PC won't allow it. You'd almost think winning isn't important.

Don't worry about the ONT. So far it is just fast food reviews, with only one nekkid german chick in ice water.

11 The intelligence agencies and the State Department have been infamous for years for their leftward bent.  And not to make light of the deaths of these agents - it's a tragedy, period.  But with a leftist in the WH, I believe these people felt enabled - they felt free to act out their leftist aspirations.  So in the words of another infamous leftist, radical madman; "The CIA's chickens have come home (insert faggoty flourish here) to roost."

12 I'd be surprised if there were more than score of people inside this country who are not ignorant and out of touch with the needs and desires of local power brokers and economies in Afghanistan.

Shit, the majority of Afghans couldn't tell you what their neighbors over the next hill want.

13 For those interested, CNAS is a "progressive," liberal internationalist think tank in the vein of Brookings.

As in, we want to do everything those evil Republicans want to do, only look and feel better doing it.

14 mmm-mmm-mmm i seed dis cumin.  nuttin aginst wimin.  jess pure arrogance an a disrepect of deh unedumincated natives. 

15 Purple Avenger, you'e got to be kidding. "She could put on an act, maybe behave like a subservient maid or orderly when locals were present. " By your logic, all U.S. Servicewomen in Muslim countries must run around barefoot wearing bhurkas. "You need to understand and integrate with the local culture." Screw that. The U.S.A. is the best damn country in the world and we don't have to treat American women like slaves just to make some third world goatfarmers happy.

16

I think the Church committee was more of a final nail in the coffin.

The rot and bureaucratization started long before that. Just look at all of the major events they completely missed.

1. Fall of China

2. Cuba

3. The erecting of the Berlin wall.

4. Vietnam (OK, they were only partially responsible for that one)

5. Central America in the 1970's and the 1980's.

6. The fall of the Soviet Union.

7. 9/11

Feel free to add more.

 

17 Shit, the majority of Afghans couldn't tell you what their neighbors over the next hill want.

Those who could mind you, are liable to change their damn minds the next time the wind blows.

18 You need to understand and integrate with the local culture.

This is why the US sucks at colonization and the Brits were so good at it.

19 Oh, and thank you, Jimmy Carter for irreparably damaging the intelligence community. In so many ways.

20 The problem is that much of the "intelligence" community is made up of the "educated class."  These fuckers have no clue.   I have been to that part of the world and you have to adapt immediately to the culture.  The dynamics are fascinating and the dirt poor ordinary folks most hospitable.  That is - so long as you get with the program early and often. 

21 Screw that. The U.S.A. is the best damn country in the world and we don't have to treat American women like slaves just to make some third world goatfarmers happy.

Posted by: Indy at January 05, 2010 11:48 PM (iDOIJ)

Dude he's talking about intelligence here not the military. In intelleigence you are supposed to fit in. An agent that sticks out like a sore thumb, like any woman would in a muslim country, is worthless. It would have been as dumb as using Blacks as undercover for Eastern Europe.

22 the paki bomb

23 the indian bomb.

24 We know what we're doing.

25 16 Purple Avenger, you'e got to be kidding. "She could put on an act, maybe behave like a subservient maid or orderly when locals were present. " By your logic, all U.S. Servicewomen in Muslim countries must run around barefoot wearing bhurkas.

"You need to understand and integrate with the local culture."

Screw that. The U.S.A. is the best damn country in the world and we don't have to treat American women like slaves just to make some third world goatfarmers happy.

___________________

It depends. Be honest: is our goal for Afghanistan doing the Germany/Japan full transformation into an ally? Or are we trying to slap KrazyGlue on and back away slowly, hoping that the vase falls over after we leave the room?

Because if we really are going to turn Afghanistan into a full fledged ally/partner, then they better come up from the Stone Age.

But is that really gonna happen? Hell no. The thing for the 'stan is making sure AQ doesn't hold it, and making sure the Russians don't move in. Other then that, we could care less. So yeah. Deploying female case officers there just doesn't make much sense to me.

Your comparison with servicewomen is apples and oranges.

http://tinyurl.com/yllotwq

See, she has a rifle. Case officers don't carry weapons, and they need to persuade and cajole, not kill. Different mission, different tools. Let them hate the chick with the gun, as long as they fear. Intelligence work takes subtlety, and you can't get someone to go along if they can't get past gender. Does it suck? Yeah, but it's reality. One of the reason the Muzzies suck so much is that they declare half their human capital useless from birth. Just think how much harder this would be if the women fought too.

26

You can't BOTH leave Afghanistan in the dark ages and turn them into a friendly nation. You have to chose. If we are going to leave them in the dark ages, then they can never be anything more than a vassal state with no will of their own.

Part of bringing them into the 20th century is dismantling the hold of Islam, and I don't think we can do that without also depopulating large swaths of that country. I have no problem with that, but politically we won't do that.

27 As I recall, their was a British General Roberts who did a helluvagood job of bringing law and order to Afganistan for several years. Maybe arrogant American generals ought to follow Roberts' lead

28 Why can't we just nuke 'em? More bang for the buck, and all. No one would miss them.

29 Part of bringing them into the 20th century is dismantling the hold of Islam, and I don't think we can do that without also depopulating large swaths of that country. I have no problem with that, but politically we won't do that.

We can't even get the people running our country to admit Islam is even a problem.

30 You can't BOTH leave Afghanistan in the dark ages and turn them into a friendly nation. You have to chose. If we are going to leave them in the dark ages, then they can never be anything more than a vassal state with no will of their own.

IMO, part of our problem is thinking of Afghanistan as a "state" in the usual sense.  Its not, and won't be for quite a while due to cultural inertia.  Its a patchwork quilt of interests where any authority out of Kabul is largely a distant hazy notion with little effect locally.

If we try to think of Afghanistan in western terms, we will make mistakes and draw incorrect conclusions.

31 Their loyalty is to clan, not nation. Let them know if they misbehave, the enitire clan dies, and they will come into line. Are you willing to practice such brutality? If not, pull out.

32 I have had the good fortune to spend some range time with a local Marine who is now stateside due to injuries incurred during his second tour over there. His distrust of the indigenous folks there is palpable. He says that when he did sleep, it was generally with one eye open. He had a few stories of native betrayal that I won't share here, but suffice it to say it must be an extremely dicey proposition to rely on the locals to help in dealing with AQ. Granted, this is purely anecdotal, and just one soldier's POV. I'm sure that coming back with a few missing chunks of anatomy might tend to influence one's experiences, as well. One heck of a guy, and a superb marksman to boot.    

33 Are you willing to practice such brutality?

That's what I think the elites deliberately ignore. The world Afghanistan is in is where Europe was 1000 years ago. Life was brutal, cruel and short. Only for the Afghanis they have more modernization around them. The civilized world is repulsed by barbarism, but refuses to call it that out of some "civilized" notion of cultural relativism. Until we can "lower" ourselves to their level, we'll lose and lose badly. And for nothing more than that thin veneer we call "civilized" behavior. Force is what they know and react to and we should use it accordingly.

But the elites have lived plushly for much too long and have no knowledge of the way life used to be like.

34 I wonder if Gen. Flynn is helping Generalissimo Obama throw the CIA under the bus in order to curry favor.  If he's buddies with Wesley Clark, Shinseki, and Zinni, it's not out of the question.

35

We can take it to stage 1 by dominating these dangerous people with military power.  But that requires gargantuan resources, and steady resolve over many years.

We can take it to stage 2 by outlawing their religion that makes them so dangerous to us.  But that requires overthrowing our cherished ideas of freedom of belief and expression for all.

Then there's stage 3.

 

We had best be deciding.

36 But that can't be.. I mean Keithy Konspiracy Olbermann said that the CIA was smart enough to try to conspire to embarass Obama...

So if they're smarter than Obama, but dumber than the Afghanistani public, what does that say about the pecking order for our President?

37

The picture of the female soldier linked by Britt above is deeply disturbing. Yeah, call me sexist, but it just is. What's next? A fucking Children's Crusade?

http://tinyurl.com/yllotwq

Obligatory link to the excellent Diana West-

http://tinyurl.com/yaf4zjn

It's a clip from a documentary about the Canadian forces in Afghanistan, but illustrates just how out of touch with reality are our leaders and institutions in the West.

38

 Are you willing to practice such brutality? If not, pull out.

Really, that's what I think it comes down to. We are fighting a brutal primitive people that neither practices, nor respects, traditional rules of war and civilization and so they must not benefit from those same rules either. Starve them, burn them, or blow them up. It really doesn't matter. Mass killing works. Just ask Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The Taliban is not even as good or as enlightened as those two barbaric regimes and so must be treated even more harshly.

39

Don't really want to crap on the ONT so early, but this seemed like a pretty dramatic statement worthy of note.

Puh-leeze, as the world's most sincere person, I must say -- you NEED lessons.

40 I wonder if Gen. Flynn is helping Generalissimo Obama throw the CIA under the bus in order to curry favor.

I doubt it.  The decline in HumInt capability since during Clinton's term is well recognized.  We bet heavily (and wrongly) on SigInt/Sats as a panacea to the detriment of the human side of operations. 

As noted previously, the Church committee worked very hard to hollow out the operations side of CIA back in the 70's.  The Democrat congress wanted to defang CIA and it pretty much accomplished what it set out to do.

41 The picture of the female soldier linked by Britt above is deeply disturbing.

That is obviously a PR picture. For pete's sake, look at her weapon. Looks like it came off the rack at Bud's Gun Shop.

42

In one respect, Bush and Cheney screwed up big time, first in Afganistan and then in Iraq.

From the very beginnings of putting boots on the ground in each of those countries, they should have sent just small teams military emissaries into each and every one of the villages to explain our objectives to the councils in those villages, talking to them on their level, not talking down to them. That's where Special Forces succeeded, and that's where other military units failed..

43 In one respect, Bush and Cheney screwed up big time, first in Afganistan and then in Iraq.

Also, it seems like we were very aggressive in the initial 18 months of the campaign, and they appeared to fold under the pressure from the left to take the pedal off the metal.

44 How long has the CIA been out of touch and not terribly effective? Dave in Texas is right. The Church Committee stuff eliminated all the quality stuff like overthrow of foreign governments and assassinations. All that's left is sitting in offices looking at live satellite images of Arabs humping goats in the desert. Yeah, I would say pretty much since before George I was running the thing it hasn't been worth much. They should collapse the whole thing, toss out the useless bits (80% probably), especially the corporate espionage stuff, and hand the useful parts over to the NSA--the only intelligence agency we have that isn't an oxymoron.

45 The CIA was moribund well before the Church commission. The people running the Church commission absolutely wanted to destroy the CIA.

46

The generals in charge now learned nothing from Viet Nam. They're a bunch of cowboys. They're egoes compel them to want to fight big battles like the ones in Europe during WWII, and naive and ignorant politicians go along with them

Small, specialized, widely dispersed units with air and artillary support would be more effective in Middle Eastern countries.

Alexander The Great didn't use shock and awe to defeat the Persians. He had only a few thousand men and he defeated armies of tens of thousands of men.

The British conquered all of India and what are now Pakistan and Afganistan with only a few regiments, and they weren't fighting savages.

47

Alexander The Great didn't use shock and awe to defeat the Persians. He had only a few thousand men and he defeated armies of tens of thousands of men.

The British conquered all of India and what are now Pakistan and Afganistan with only a few regiments, and they weren't fighting savages.

_____________

This is completely wrong.

Alexander used heavy cavalry to shatter Persian lines. The lightly armed Eastern armies could not stand against the bronze armored Western infantry and the heavy cavalry Alexander brought with him. It was a disciplined and overwhelming force in a series of pitched battles that brought down the Persian Empire.

The British conquest of India is far too complex to summarize here, but suffice it to say that disciplined firepower, but discipline more then anything else, was the key. That conquest would not have worked had the enemy not also been obliging enough to concentrate for pitched battles. See, for example, the Battle of Assaye. British outnumbered and outgunned 5 to 1, and they easily broke the army lined up against them. Why? Western fortitude and discipline (didn't hurt that the British commander was one Arthur Wellesley aka Duke of Wellington). By the way, roughly half the British force were sepoys. It's not a racial thing, it's cultural. 

Which brings us to today. Decentralized guerrilla warfare was not possible for the Sudanese in 1898. They had to attempt a pitched battle against the British and then return to farms or fishing villages to survive. They lined up and got slaughtered by Martinis and Maxim guns. Nowadays even developing nations have plenty of slack to support or have stolen from them by them guerrilla or terrorist groups. Modern commo allows a resistance movement to keep morale high. The West itself has a reachable soft underbelly, both vulnerable to physical attack and susceptible to propaganda offensives.

In short, the hammer of the West that has broken non-Western forces for two millenia only works if you are willing to use it. The US, who has the hardest and biggest hammer of all, is too buys wringing its hands to use it. The excessive concern for casualties, both our own and among civilians, is emblematic of this. Ending wars quickly is the way to go, always. Right now the ROE and the emphasis on force protection means reminds me of the guy who cut off his dog's tail an inch at a time so it wouldn't hurt so much.

48 having the woman even present would reduce respect and make them view us as weak. That's simply the way Islam is designed. It sounds like the CIA ignored the reality on the Islamic street here in at least that regard.

Americans seem to have a knack for projecting their own social values onto everyone else.  This is particularly true with "progressives".  So the behavior apparently exhibited here would be typical for a "progressive" administration who more highly values having a woman in that position than they value the result that might come of it.

49

Hmmm, after admitting that he was completely wrong, Britt goes on to provide completely wrong information alright. But why? 

Scratching my head here. It must be the British sense of humor, eh wot?

50 Family Security Matters

51 The diversity cancer strikes again...Having a female base chief in Islamic indian country is the height of stupidity...When in the hell are we going to learn that substituting diversity for competence is a fucking cancer that is killing our society?  Congress told us to make female carrier pilots.  CVW-6 sent home a half dozen bitches back in the late nineties for being shitty fucking pilots.  Guess what?  They sued the Navy...Kara Hultgren killed herself trying to bring a F14 aboard a carrier with a dead engine...Shitty fucking pilot.  A few women can handle a jet ok but they don't have the warrior spirit...We need killers flying jets, not fucking mommies.  Same goes for the CIA in Afghan.

52 55...  CVW-6 sent home a half dozen bitches back in the late nineties for being shitty fucking pilots.  Guess what?  They sued the Navy...Kara Hultgren killed herself trying to bring a F14 aboard a carrier with a dead engine...Shitty fucking pilot.  A few women can handle a jet ok but they don't have the warrior spirit...We need killers flying jets, not fucking mommies.  Same goes for the CIA in Afghan.

Posted by: Nozzle at January 06, 2010 05:22 AM (lxg2b)

Plus, they fly with their signal light on the whole time.

53 Has anyone read first-person accounts of Operation Jawbreaker. Redacted ones, I mean. No disrespect intended to the brave people who put their lives on the line for our freedom, but, c'mon, Starbucks coffee? (Also, fairly limited language skills.) Again, no disrespect intended, but they seemed like fly-fisherman descending from a cute ute in the Old Dominion, rather than cross-country skiers who eat their dogs on the trek back from the South Pole. I suspect we needed more like the latter.

54 I still want to know who decided to reveal that these were CIA officers and that this was a CIA location.

55

 "It would have been as dumb as using Blacks as undercover for Eastern Europe."

 

Ah, that was done. Late 80's, Leipzig.  Within hours, a "russian bear" (guy dressed up in cap w/red star, balaclava, & "russian army" gear) turned up in Bonn.  Both were quickly escorted back to their respective sides w/grins aplenty amongst those on the ground...

The bosses @ Langley didn't think it was funny.  Idiots.  Do not be mistaken - "Politically Correct" culture is strong & deep amongst our agencies, & their usefulness is quite limited.

56

PS:  If the report was released by a liberal think tank, WTF released it to them?

Following on from Britt's earlier comment (Britt at January 06, 2010 02:12 AM ), we fight our wars in the open. The infighting within our own and with allies always hits the news and the ratbags get free intelligence.

 

 

 

57 NO ONE who is a "shitty pilot" ever gets into a F 15 Hultgen always led or was near the top of every class

58 The Church Committee definitely started things and they were frustrated at not finishing the job. They did later. After Watergate the left never stopped the hostile, partisan CIA witch hunts. From Seymour Hersh's "investigative reports" to Carter's Intelligence Oversight Act of 1980 to Iran-Contra they pretty much finished off the CIA. Now the whole intelligence community is run like some partisan academic exercise, staffed by progressives ignoring everything not fitting their world view. 

59 Regardless of the merits of the General's criticisms, to release the "study" so soon after the deaths of 7 officers is uncouth and I would certainly expect more of a retired General officer. To do so from the President's favorite think tank before their bodies are laid to rest and stars are on the wall is going to ignite a bureaucratic war between the CIA, the Pentagon, and the NSC.

60

BURBERRY SCARF just $99.9

game CDKeys

61 I still want to know who decided to reveal that these were CIA officers and that this was a CIA location.

Probably Jordanian intelligence.  They were apparently convinced they'd effectively recruited him to work against AQ and were going to hand him off to us once in Afghanistan. 

This is how he got through -- he came with the stamp of approval of Jordanian Intelligence (who are generally pretty good and very anti-terrorist).

What we and the Jordanians thought was a double, turned out to be a triple.  As Angleton said this game is a "wilderness of mirrors"

62 A culture that does not use women to fight is not necessarily wasting half of its human capital, as someone claimed above. How much more effective would our forces be, if all of the REMF jobs were given to women, and all those able bodied men were made into combat troops? Say, that sounds like how we used to do things. Also, any society that has to worry about replacing its population generation to generation would be absolutely retarded to put women in danger. You could lose 90% of your males and still expand your population (and boy would they have a good time doing it). Lose just a small percentage of females, and you significantly impact your reproduction rate.

63

I can't remember where I read this yesterday, and it wasnt always clear in the report, but Maj. General Flynn's asst. said this was mostly a critique of the intelligence hierarchy within the DoD - not the CIA. 

 

64 captain atom - the real muslim problem is they restrict half of the population from the economy and civil discourse.

65 Gee, who would have thought that Political Correctness could kill.

66 I agree with you Jean, I was just responding to an argument further up about using women to fight.

67 Re#58 Davod

" I still want to know who decided to reveal that these were CIA officers and that this was a CIA location."

When you don't reveal who these people are, everybody kinda figures it out.

68 We need to get the best agents we have in there. Bring Valerie Plame and her husband out of retirement and send them in the tribal areas. They will sort this stuff out, or get killed in the process. Make sure to ship their Jag over with them - they will need it for their cover as progressive political activists trying to find Bush war crime evidence.

69

Hey shiek, she was in a F-14 (not F15) and this excerpt is from the final report on Lt. Hultgreen's training:

But the Inspector General's report confirms some embarrassing facts: the late Kara Hultgreen was retained in the training program and graduated to the fleet despite a failing grade and four major flying errors (called in Naval Aviation lingo "Downs"), two of which were similar to mistakes she made on the day she died.

70

You fucking piece of shit.  Those people who were just killed were on the pointy end of the spear, serving America with honor. 

They are there to kill people, not make friends and they are doing a very good job.

I guess your mindset in WWll, would have quit in the middle of the D-day invasion - with the idea that it might piss of the germans.

 

If you can't get on board and support all our brothers and sisters who are serving - take of that fucking uniform and move in with Obama.

71 In point of fact George, the CIA is there to make friends, it's the basic part of any intel operation.

72 Why would the jordanian meet with seven agents?  That is just plain stupid, no matter how brave the operatives were.  They may have been brave.  They apparently were neither competent nor concerned about security.  These are intelligence agents-shouldn't they be sneaky, underhanded and expecting a double cross?

73 Gee, I guess that drop counter-insurgency to focus on counter-terrorism idea of mine wasn't so hot after all.

74 No shit Sherlock

75

I had firsthand experience dealing with what we referred to as OGA's (Other Government Agency) personnel from their Baghdad office. We found them a bunch of Ivy League smart kids from back east who would have been great hidden in an embassy someplace. They were worthless for what we were doing, and the ex-JSOC guys they employ who we COULD have used were all off with TF's 121 and 626 doing more glamorous stuff than what we were.

The CIA guys did not need to have seven officers in one room to deal with one CI unless they were trying to flatter that CI. Bad move. Woman in the room, worse move. I know this guy was a somewhat Westernized Jordanian medical doctor. Still not smart. I've handled enough Arab snitches to know they are like Churchill's quote about the Germans, they're either at your feet or at your throat.

Hultgreen died when she stalled her F-14A, then rolled it, a mistake that also killed male pilots. The A models were not very well-engined (a flaw corrected in the A+ and D models) and single-engine handling, particularly during landing, was NOT their strong point. Superior skills might have gotten her through that moment, but lots of people died in F-14 accidents.

76

Point of fact, Atom  SAD does not make friends - they fill body bags.

77 Anyone with the slightest clue about Arab or Afghan culture would realize having the woman even present would reduce respect and make them view us as weak. That's simply the way Islam is designed. It sounds like the CIA ignored the reality on the Islamic street here in at least that regard.

Fuck Islam, and fuck the idea that just because the "Arab culture" is intimidated and feels emasculated by strong, intelligent females, that we should kowtow to that bullshit.  I did two tours in Iraq. I was also in Saudi Arabia. None of the women in my unit (including yours truly) ever allowed ourselves to be treated like a doormat.

This is NOT to say you can't have a woman running the show effectively. She could put on an act, maybe behave like a subservient maid or orderly when locals were present. That certainly could work with a bit of effort with everyone acting their parts accordingly.

Uh, NO.

It sounds like much of CIA's problem goes back to techniques described in Maj. Gant's proposal. You need to understand and integrate with the local culture. If the General's criticisms are in fact correct, this is not happening.

My take on Gant's "proposal":

I can appreciate Major GantÂ’s heartfelt , albeit naive, altruism. He is genuinely sympathetic due to his living among the tribe he discusses in his paper; but make no mistake,  muslim tribes and sects are loyal to their own above all else.  Which means in spite of Major Gant being in their good graces, they could just as easily reject him, too. 

His plan would fail in the long run, and cost more lives because of itÂ’s tedious, piecemeal strategy. You cannot make friends with everyone in a war zone.  As an Ace of Spades commenter once said: Our casualties will be higher than if we just hammered them in one tremendous and consistent blow. That blow could involve a nuclear strike if, for instance, Iran goes ‘ballisticÂ’.

Major Gant describes an encounter with a tribal leader in a small village in Khas Khonar:

After introducing one another, he asked why we were there. Why had armed Americans come to his country? We spoke for some two hours. I got out my laptop and showed Malik Noorafzal video footage of the World Trade Center towers collapsing. He had never seen this and it made a deep impression. He had heard about 9/11 and now understood that we were there to fight the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

Why would you waste valuable resources and effort trying to placate every single tribe, or showing them videos of the atrocities on 9/11?  Noorafzal heard about 9/11 , and IÂ’m sure he understood that it was carried out by radical muslims in an act of war supported by every Islamic-nation-state in the Middle East, including Afghanistan, who was by then under Taliban control.

The bulk of Major GantÂ’s strategy involves a “Tribal Engagement Strategy: 

"……We need to integrate ourselves into the process as trusted “advisors” to the tribal leadership. They
need to know that we have their best interests in mind. The strengths that these tribal organizations
show can be used eventually to establish cooperation and political integration with the central government (more than likely not our model, but a type). This would take time.

Â…Â…The key to a successful tribal engagement strategy is the ability to identify men (Tribal Engagement Team members) who have a special gift for crosscultural competency and building rapport—that is, they must become educated in the ways of the tribes and build strong relationships with them based on mutual trust and objectives."

YouÂ’ll note that the “crosscultural competency”  involves making allowances for the Islamic misogyny:

"What about democracy? A tribe is a “natural democracy.” In Afghan every manÂ’s voice has a chance to be heard. The fact that women and minority groups have no say in the process does not make it less effective nor less of a democracy to them. Asking them to change the way they have always conducted their business through their their jirgas and shuras just does not make sense.

Â…Â…The honor of an Afghan woman can never be compromised. It sounds contrary to how they treat their women, but that is the point. Their world is one of contradictions (to outsiders) and is very hard to understand.

Bottom line: We must support the tribal  it is the single, unchanging political, social and cultural reality in Afghan society and the one system that all Afghans understand, even if we donÂ’t. We must also remember that the Pashtun tribes are fighting to preserve a centuries old way of life."

Yeah, a violent, anti-Christian/Jewish/infidel/Western 7th Century way of life.

Gant imbibes in a bit of psychoanalysis while heÂ’s at it:

"The Taliban find many willing recruits among disaffected tribesmen. The Taliban offer fame, glory and the chance to live exciting, meaningful (to them) lives. Many recruits see the Taliban as their only way to survive: Kill as a Taliban or be killed by the Taliban.

……“Winning” in Afghanistan will be an elusive prospect until we base our operations within the cultural framework of the tribal systems already in place.  We have killed thousands and thousands of the “enemy” in Afghanistan and it clearly has not brought us closer to our objectives there. We could kill thousands more and still not be any closer five years from now. Time is on their side. In an insurgency, all the insurgents have to do is not lose.

Â…Â…There may be dozens of reasons not to adopt this strategy. But there is only one reason to do so—we have to."

Afghanistan is just one front in this war. If you need a definition of victory, here it is: ItÂ’s when we have crushed the Islamofascists to the point where they realize that messing with the “Great Satan” is far more costly than simply practicing their religion peacefully, without using Islam and bombs as instruments of terrorism.

ItÂ’s when Iraq and Afghanistan develop stable infrastructures (executive, judicial, legislative, and military) that can stand on their own and protect themselves from the extremists who want to stop the progress of democracy, and (this is very important) when the 150+ major tribes and the close to 2000 smaller clans are able to live, work, and govern in a compromised co-existence.

As far as IÂ’m concerned, the first part of that is victory enough.

Not included in GantÂ’s dissertation is the fact that Islamic terrorism is supported throughout the Middle East. The countries bordering Afghanistan; Iran, Waziristan, and Pakistan, are full of terrorist safehavens. PakistanÂ’s Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) has Taliban moles on its payroll, and in its military.  Terrorist cells run back across the Afghan border after re-grouping, thanks to the Pakistan regime.  Any resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan can be directly attributed to terrorist groups operating carte blanche in Pakistan; abetted by a large portion of the Pakistani government, Army, and ISI.

There is no common language or culture among disparate tribes; they're so isolated and fragmented, it will be impossible to unite them under anything that remotely resembles a "nation".

78

Sgt Dan,

Every plane has its tricks...The F-14 included...The Navy trains fighter pilots to handle the good, bad and the ugly of Naval Aviation no matter the limitations of the aircraft...Hultgren and many early female Naval Aviators would have never got to a fighter without pressure from Congress to make female carrier pilots...Many, not all, were pushed through flight training no matter their ability.  This stuff culminated with Hultgren's crash.  Many lessons were learned the hard way with regard to pushing PC into flight training.  I think its better now, but I've been out of Naval Aviation for awhile...One of my pals, Marine F-18 driver, happened to have married one of the chicks who sued the Navy...Go figure!  Cheers...

79

Nozzle,

I agree that PC should never be a factor in qualifications.

In the case of the Navy pilots, a better approach would have been to select candidates based on ability; not gender. 

Women pilots, fighter and otherwise, are not exactly a novelty. Hell, the Russians had entire fighter-bomber squadrons in WWII comprised of women. 46th Night Bombers Guards Regiment is one example.

I hope by now, we are past the point where we focus on the sex of the warrior and concentrate on killing the enemy.

 

80 #82, my cousin was also in Naval Aviation at the time, and he was of the opinion a lot of female pilots who were competent in other aircraft went out and became mediocre in the Turkey and the Bug. Then again he was in Hummers until he made DCAG and had to learn to fly everything else in the air wing. Not a big deal, he was a TPS grad, but still interesting.

SFC Mac, I knew then-former SSG Gant sixteen years ago, we were classmates not long after he got back from Desert Storm (5th SFG) and decided to take a commission. I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe the man. Naive is NOT one I would choose.

81 And bear in mind, that is the unclassified open-source version of the document. I have heard from a pretty solid source the longer drafts of the campaign plan have a lot more details.

82 Afghanistan is what neutron bombs were made for.

83 85 And bear in mind, that is the unclassified open-source version of the document. I have heard from a pretty solid source the longer drafts of the campaign plan have a lot more details.

Posted by: SGT Dan at January 06, 2010 08:32 PM (HZpUJ)

I certainly hope so.

84 How amusing to see some of these armchair intelligence experts pontificate on the effectiveness of the CIA, past or present.  As for General Flynn, sounds to me like he is another one of those scrambled egg chaps who is pissed because he is not the lord of all he surveys.  But seeing that he is among the high lords of the game out there and, if as he says the program isn't working out very well, perhaps he ought to take a look in the mirror.  And as for integrating into the local culture...in Afghanistan?  In a God-forsaken place like Khost?  What do you think this is?  Peoria?  Instead of offering suggestions out of ignorance, why don't some of you put down your beers and fries, turn off the NFL playoff games, join up, and get out there with those who have the cajones to actually fight this battle.  That woman who died at Khost --- by the way, she was Chief of Base, not station chief, just so all you experts understand --- probably had more guts than all the rest of you combined.

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86

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