1 You do not "win" the Medal of Honor. It's not a fucking contest.
 

Medal of Honor Awardees.

2

Bing   Nicholas Joseph Cutinha Nam 1968. I'm heading up to hunt with his brother.

Jack's voice is slightly off the video, it's like a Chinese martial arts movie.

3 Headline modified in response to Gundo. But I couldn't bring myself to use the frankly feminized word "awardees."

4 Posted by: Gundo at November 20, 2010 10:31 AM (1+oiH)

And everyone who was awarded the Medal of Honor would agree.

These are humble men who did what was necessary. They didn't contemplate the risk/reward equation before acting, unlike some of our politicians.

5 This asshole really has quite gotten the message about the 'rule of holes'.

I will give Fischer credit for two things...

The breadth of his ignorance is quite impressive and his willingness to share that ignorance with the world impressive.

6 Er, #5 should be "This asshole really hasn't quite gotten the message about the 'rule of holes'"

7 Just read Fischer's item. Am now unable to do basic math. Hope it fades.

8 What a douche nozzle.

No, wait. Douche nozzle is too good for him.

What an enema nozzle.

9 If anyone is unfamiliar with the heroism of Lt. Michael Murphy I encourage you to read Lone Survivor by Marcus Luttrell. Truly awe inspiring and a great reminder that America still produces incredible heros. What those four SEALs did under the selfless leadership of Lt. Murphy is beyond heroic.

10 But I couldn't bring myself to use the frankly feminized word "awardees."
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at November 20, 2010 10:35 AM

How about "recipient," Gabe?

As long as you don't use "award," it's cool.

11 As long as you don't use "award," it's cool.

Wait, I thought I wasn't supposed to use the term "win" or "winners".

12 Feminized?
I wonder what Silver Star recipient Leigh Ann Hester would say about that whole idea?

13 No doubt this dipshit would prefer that the Medal of Honor become some "Glorious Martyrdom" medal...

14 Wait, I thought I wasn't supposed to use the term "win" or "winners".
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at November 20, 2010 10:58 AM

I just don't like any reference that suggests the MOH comes as the result of a game, lottery or popularity contest. YMMV.

Personally, I think the only "feminization" of the MOH has to do with the treasonous fuckweasel who is currently the C-in-C. Our military heroes deserve better.

15 Let's be clear. Bryan Fischer is  a santized version of Phreaky Phreddy Phelps. Comments on his page that show that the percentage of medals given for "taking it to the enemy" are the same for today's conflicts as they were for Vietnam.

Fischer purges them because they disturb the narrative that America is going soft because of "Teh Ghey Menace".

16
What a bunch of horseshit over the word 'feminized.'

Whether or not Fischer has a valid point, McQ has his panties (which are feminine) in a bunch.

17 Looks like their might be another surviving MoH recipient soon. I'm not sure Fischer will be happy:

(Marine Cpl. Dakota Meyer) charged into a kill zone on foot and alone to find three missing Marines and a Navy corpsman who had been pinned down under enemy fire for hours by about 150 well-armed insurgents. Already wounded by shrapnel before braving enemy fire, he found them dead and stripped of their gear and weapons, and carried them out of the kill zone with the help of Afghan soldiers, according to military documents obtained by Marine Corps Times.

Reached for comment Monday, Meyer was unaware he has been recommended for the Medal of Honor, saying he does not feel like a hero and still dwells on what happened that day. He was a member of Embedded Training Team 2-8 training Afghan forces when the ambush occurred, and good friends with the troops he pulled from the kill zone. He left the Corps in June after his four-year contract with the service expired.

“Whatever comes out of it, it’s for those guys,” he said of the recommendation. “I feel like the furthest thing from a hero. I feel like I let my guys down because I didn’t bring them home alive.”

This fight was part of the infamous battle in Ganjgal, where air and artillery support were denied by higher (and far to the rear) HQ over fear of violating the ROEs.

18 I don't see what was so horrible about it. So he got his facts wrong. It's not as if he was insulting the recipients, rather the appearance of bias in the award process.

19
Can someone point out to me where Fischer insults anyone?

20 SSG Giunta is perfectly deserving of the MOH, as has been every other recipient in the GWOT.  However, there are plenty of other potential recipients who have gotten a Service Cross or Silver Star who are probably also equally deserving and it's difficult to understand how and where the distinctions are being made.  At this point, I think it's perfectly valid to call the process into question (even if this individual did so pretty badly).

21 16
What a bunch of horseshit over the word 'feminized.'

Whether or not Fischer has a valid point, McQ has his panties (which are feminine) in a bunch.

Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 11:20 AM (uFokq)

Fischer is saying that we are not giving awards to soldiers that actually fight the enemy. That the awards are not as valid as they used to be. If you don't understand why this is a sensitive subject for people who have served then STFU.

22
Okay, I don't want to start with anyone here today, but some of you sound as foolish as the comments at Fischer's original post.


Fischer is not saying he doesn't want the MoH going to people who risk their lives to save others; his point is that the MoH should also go to exemplary soldiers who kill lots of the enemy.

23

I've taken to reading MOH citations over teh years.  Been reading them for about 5 years now, about 1 or 2 a week.  Every single one involves saving the lives of comrades, through direct fire, leadership under fire, rescuing helpless/injured comrades, or jumping on a grenade (hence the term "medal of honor position"). 

Inspiring, humbling, and emotional as hell

Feminized my ass.  This choad probably has never even fired a weapon.

24
If you don't understand why this is a sensitive subject for people who have served then STFU.

Go fuck yourself. Stick your absolute moral authority up your ass.

25

Fischer is not saying he doesn't want the MoH going to people who risk their lives to save others; his point is that the MoH should also go to exemplary soldiers who kill lots of the enemy.

Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 11:27 AM (uFokq)

Uhmmmm....bullshit. Utter bullshit. This is what he said:

"We have feminized the Medal of Honor.

According to Bill McGurn of the Wall Street Journal, every Medal of Honor awarded during these two conflicts has been awarded for saving life. Not one has been awarded for inflicting casualties on the enemy. Not one."

First of all it isn't true and secondly, given Fischer's body of work, it's meant as a slur.

26 If you go to the official page and start reading, you won't be able to tear yourself away.

27 If we could talk about this intellectually with the emotional soberness it deserves, I think Fischer, while wrong about this factually, has a point worthy of argument, much like CavMedic sees.

28 24
If you don't understand why this is a sensitive subject for people who have served then STFU.

Go fuck yourself. Stick your absolute moral authority up your ass.

Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 11:28 AM (uFokq)

My bad you're an ignorant cockholster.

29 OT but important:  On Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee unanimously approved a bill that would give the Attorney General the right to shut down websites with a court order if copyright infringement is deemed “central to the activity” of the site — regardless if the website has actually committed a crime

30

MOH:

"[Conspicuous] gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against any enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force;"



If they're shooting at you, and you all but die changing the course of battle or rescuing the lives of your fellows, you'll be looking at one of these.

31 his point is that the MoH should also go to exemplary soldiers who kill lots of the enemy.
Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 11:27 AM (uFokq)

Except he's ignoring the fact that guys like Staff Sgt. Miller and SFC Smith did get their medal for racking up a body count. So did in part Lt. Murphy. Giunta was charging after 2 Taliban soldiers alone.

There's almost always a life saving component to any offensive action, so Fischer is railing about something that doesn't exists.

There aren't any company sized and up stand toe-to-toe fights in these wars (outside of the original invasion of Iraq). You aren't going to see hills being taken. It's a small unit to small unit fight where for a lot of the time our troops are reacting to contact they initiate by pushing into territory where the bad guys are.

Fischer has his head up his ass about the nature of this fight and serveral of the MoHs that have been awarded to date.

Look at this line from a MoH citation....

(His) indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

Saving his company? Sounds pretty feminine to me! You know whose MoH citation that's from? Audie Murphy's.

32 Killing 50 enemy soldiers single handed doesn't sound "feminine" to me.

What did bother me was that the CMoH appeared to have turned into a posthumous medal.  Also, I'm sensitive to the possibility of some sort of racial quota system coming into play... not in the sense that some member of a minority may receive it without truly deserving it, but rather that a member of the majority may be denied it on grounds that there's only so many to hand out and the group of recipients should "look like America" and all that other liberal clap-trap.

I'm glad living heroes are at last being recognized, and I hope that NO ONE ever worries about the racial composition of the recipients.

33 http://tinyurl.com/325bbwd

Salvatore Giunta -Badass of the week article

34
Look at how weak your argument is. You have to lie and say that Fischer is calling the actions of Guinta feminine.

And you repost what McQ wrote about Audie Murphy.  No reason to go back to WWII. Fischer is talking about Iraq & Afghanistan.

This, however,is a valid argument:
You aren't going to see hills being taken. It's a small unit to small unit fight where for a lot of the time our troops are reacting to contact they initiate by pushing into territory where the bad guys are.

Okay, fine. I don't know if it's true or not, but at least it's a relevant response.

35 Gabriel: 'recipients' is the word which is often used.

36 It's awe inspiring how those who never did rush to judgement.    Fischer for Congress.  Pat Leahy is getting old.

37 Also, I'm sensitive to the possibility of some sort of racial quota system coming into play... not in the sense that some member of a minority may receive it without truly deserving it, but rather that a member of the majority may be denied it on grounds that there's only so many to hand out and the group of recipients should "look like America" and all that other liberal clap-trap.
Posted by: CoolCzech at November 20, 2010 11:38 AM (tJjm/)

Dude, WTF?

Look at the pictures of MoH recipients from Iraq and Afghanistan and tell me if you are still worried if recipients "look like America".

If you want to worry about anything, worry why Sergeant Rafael Peralta didn't get the Medal of Honor.

This is one fucked up case. Supposedly he was denied the MoH because they found he couldn't have consciously covered the grenade EXCEPT...his Navy Cross citation specifically says, "Sergeant Peralta reached out and pulled the grenade to his body".

It's one or the other but it can't be both.

38 Not seeing what the anger is about. Here's a guy who IMO should have received the MOH: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/05/captain_brian_c.html

39 "Dude, WTF?"

- DrewM.

You REALLY think liberals would be above that?  What country have you lived in for the last 30 years?

I said I hope that a recipient's race is never a factor in the award of the CMoH.  I stand by that statement.

40 "I want to stress the fact that this is the nationÂ’s highest honor.  Awesome.  And itÂ’s given to me, but just as much as me, every single person that IÂ’ve been with deserves to wear it — they are just as much of me as I am.  This isnÂ’t a one-man show.  IÂ’m here because someone picked me.  I hope that everyone around me can share in whatever pride that comes from it.  They deserve that pride."

Salvatore Giunta

41 This is one fucked up case. Supposedly he was denied the MoH because they found he couldn't have consciously covered the grenade EXCEPT...his Navy Cross citation specifically says, "Sergeant Peralta reached out and pulled the grenade to his body".

It's one or the other but it can't be both.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 20, 2010 11:51 AM (HicGG)

Agreed, and he should receive the CMoH, based on what you say.

42
But he won't, and that's Fischer's point.

Ever since Viet Nam, we have to be ashamed of killing the enemy other side.

43

Just to provide some background to my argument-I invite everyone to go over to "Home of Heroes" and read some of the citations for valor awards in the GWOT (sadly it hasn't been updated in a while so several recipients are not recognized there).  I am particularly impressed by PFC Stephen Sanford, but there are plenty of others (CPT {now MAJ}Brian Chontosh for example) who seem very clearly deserving.  Army Times did a story about this a year or so ago and mentioned several who have gotten lesser awards who pretty clearly would have gotten the MOH in earlier wars.  One was a SSG who charged into a burning tracked vehicle under fire to rescue several wounded comrades and later died of the burns he suffered as a result (I am ashamed to say that I do not remember his name and I am not doing justice to his exploits-Army Times pointed out that this particlar soldier was a black immigrant and wondered if that was not a factor, but who knows).  I'm happy to see this discussed here, even though I think the argument was presented poorly.

(Edit-Damn Ace's html buster for not letting me post a link.  Just Google Home of Heroes).

44 Hey! You guys need to back off slammin Fischer here! I mean, really, he went to Stanford to study deep thinking (and I bet you didn't) and he learned EVERYTHING he needs to know about who should or should not be eligible for the Medal of Honor during his grueling 5-year tour as the Director of the Boise Parks and Recreation Department! So cut the guy some slack! He probably just wanted to say his piece so's he could go back to abusing himself while looking at a poster of Andy Roddick and fantasizing about helping sheep over a fence!

45

(Edit-Damn Ace's html buster for not letting me post a link.  Just Google Home of Heroes).

Posted by: CavMedic at November 20, 2010 11:57 AM (rYFmu)

Here it is as a tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/22kvsh

46 What did bother me was that the CMoH appeared to have turned into a posthumous medal.

Yes, there is some valid criticism on that issue.  There is also the feeling that the higher medals aren't being awarded for combat action because of Politcal Correctness...that is that we don't want to offend by lifting up warriors.  And that might be true as well.

But those aren't the arguments that Fischer is making and if you read some of his other posts you will see that he believes that America is being weakened by secular threats; particularly homosexuality.  So when he is saying the MoH is being feminized he is saying that weakness is being rewarded.

I joined Mr. Carter's All Vol Army.  Served under Ronaldus Magnus and into Bill Clinton's presidency and these are the best trained and hardest warriors I have ever seen.  There are and will be readiness issued because of the disruption that sex, straight or gay, puts into the equation.  But Fischer does not address that directly either.

47
If Fischer's essay had said, "The criteria for the Medal of Honor has narrowed," instead of using the word feminized, his case would still be legit.

But since he used the word feminized he allowed those with an agenda who hate him to seize on it and twist his words.

48 Feminized means not killing the enemy?  Has that man ever dealt with a pissed off mother (human or animal)?   Females kill with great efficacy when the situation calls for it and dare I say, when protecting their young, with zero remorse.

49 But since he used the word feminized he allowed those with an agenda who hate him to seize on it and twist his words.

No, he used that word because _he_ has an agenda.

50 Females kill with great efficacy when the situation calls for it and dare I say, when protecting their young, with zero remorse.

Posted by: EZB at November 20, 2010 12:03 PM (fa9yq)

At our house, that situation seems to come around every 30 days, IYKWIM.

51

Hmmm I don't know. Every soldier or marine who goes into battle risks their lives and destroys the enemy. Most don't get medals for that. Above and Beyond the call of duty is usually measured by doing something extremely dangerous to save an individual or maybe your whole platoon by charging a position and destroying it by yourself.

Carlos Hathcock was the top Marine sniper in Vietnam, 99 confirmed kills with most of them in enemy held territory.

He was awarded the silver star not for sniping but for rescuing fellow marines from a burning halftrack he was in that hit a mine.

52 It doesn't matter if you kill 50 enemy soldiers or brave withering fire saving the lives of your brothers. It is heroism. Live or die doesn't matter. The bravery quotient doesn't change.

53
I was curious about when was the last time a sniper received the Medal of Honor.

As far as I can tell there were only three. Two of the men, Shughart and Gordon,  received their medals posthumously for their kills in Somalia in 1993. The third, Monsoor, received his medal posthumously in 2008 for jumping on a grenade to save his friends in 2006.

All three deserved the Medal of Honor. But Fischer's point is supported.

54 If the MOH was awarded to all who met the criteria, it would be as common as a CIB- and lose it's weight/uniqueness. So, how can we winnow done the numbers in an acceptable fashion? We can't; it's an impossible task. There is no right answer. The same is true of the Silver Star and Bronze Star. He'll, if you get an Arcom, you're a fucking hero in my book. That's why we marvel at the humility these heroes; they know they represent countless multitudes that will never be recognized. The visceral reaction comes from the knowledge that any taint to the MOH dishonors all who have faced fire. And, them's fightin' word, Buckwheat.

55

The visceral reaction comes from the knowledge that any taint to the MOH dishonors all who have faced fire. And, them's fightin' word, Buckwheat.

Posted by: Beefy Meatball at November 20, 2010 12:29 PM (LlX9m)

Isn't there a MoH recipient that would fit that criteria from the early 1900s?  I remember there being this liberal assbag on another blog I read that used a quote from him as a sig.  Basically he was a commie claiming how everything he did for the military was to further corporate greed. 

56

Fischer's article was bullshit carping along the lines of "kids these days"...it was a disgusting thing to do in regards to Iraq/Astan MOH awardees and a bit of a slur on our troops (as it creates the correlation of "feminized" MOH = "feminized" military).

As a female who happens to have a few military connections and is hopefully feminized (I wear lipstick and lingerie every once and a while), I kinda resent that and would like to reach down inside Fischer's spewing mouth and bring his intestines to life (just to see if they'd fit; the size ratios say they will).

Anybody who puts up with getting shot at, potentially exploded, captured/tortured/beheaded on a day to day basis is a brave and worthy mofo; anyone who does the same and manages to kill a lot of bad guys in the process is an effective brave and worthy mofo; anybody who manages to do both plus save the lives of their comrades is an heroic brave and worthy mofo.  End of story imho.

 

57 No College football thread?
Just saw a fun stat. Boston College (who consistently produce NFL linemen, even when the team is playing at or below it's usual mid-level Bowl game standards) has a starting offensive line that is larger than the New England Patriots by an average of 1" and 2 pounds per player.
That's some big mackerel snappers.

58 Posted by: buzzion at November 20, 2010 12:37 PM (oVQFe)

Smedley Butler?

59 55 "liberal assbag" answers your rhetorical question.

60 IMHO the MOH is a tough subject around vets as it should be, we all have our decorations but big blue, that one demands the respect it earns. I've met several awardees in my time and they were all humble

61

I think the name of Fischer's website says it all -- and may I say once again: I'm sick and tired of these creeps taking on words that by their true definition don't define said creeps.

Fischer was slurring; that's my opinion and sticking to it.

62 58 Posted by: buzzion at November 20, 2010 12:37 PM (oVQFe)

Smedley Butler?

Posted by: Holger at November 20, 2010 12:43 PM (V9Q+f)

Probably. 

63 sometimes.....rather than expressing an opinion, one should stfu

64 I have known Fischer for many years. I am bothered that we share the same hometown.

I had always suspected that he had gone off the fucking rails. There is no better evidence of that- than his own writing. That even he, extreme neo con that he is, can find no quarter here is evidence of his domicile on the far edge of the lunatic fringe.

65 Posted by: buzzion at November 20, 2010 12:47 PM (oVQFe)

Smedley Butler was probably it. Here is a quote:

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

66 >>All three deserved the Medal of Honor. But Fischer's point is supported. No, it's not. The Medal of Honor was never intended to be a honor bestowed upon those who had the most enemy kills. It is and always has been an honor bestowed on those who have displayed uncommon valor and upheld the finest traditions of the service without regard to their own lives in the face of the enemy. For whatever reason, Fischer tried to make the case that the MoH has morphed into some sort of defense award and he's dead wrong. A simple reading of the citations of those who have received the honor, both currently and throughout history, easily puts a lie to his claim. I'm sure there are many people who could have received the MoH and didn't for a variety of reasons, it's an award based on human judgement not numerical totals and anything decided by humans is open to interpretation. But Fischer's premise is dead wrong. I defy anyone to read the official citation describing Lt. Murphy's actions and find anything feminine about it.

67

63 And pray tell why should I stfu rather than somebody else?

Because I really, really don't like what Fischer is saying; because I think he's wrong?

Do people get passed over for medals who should get them?  Yeah -- life is not fair (most troops don't have a problem with this -- they don't resent MOH recipients for receiving the honor; not the troops I've known at least).  Does that mean that the awards are "feminized" and by inference the military is "feminized", which means by inference that the troops are "feminized" (which means the word "feminized" equals something negative...and there is a big problem: how on earth did the word "feminized" become the word to use here?  why that word?) is right?

68

It helps to put the behavior of elderly cranks into perspective if you ask yourself, given their background, and given all the things they could be spending their remaining years in, why did they choose that? What makes that particular piece of their belly button lint so damned fascinating to them?

See for example William Shockley and his "race vs. IQ" lecture tour; for any youngsters out there, Shockley was a Physicist who got a Nobel for inventing the transistor. Later, he made sure everybody knew he was strumming his wire into a beaker at a Genius IQ sperm bank.

I never heard of Fischer before this. Hopefully I will not hear of him again.

69 If Fischer's essay had said, "The criteria for the Medal of Honor has narrowed," instead of using the word feminized, his case would still be legit.
Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 12:01 PM (uFokq)

Look at Fischer's first column...
When we think of heroism in battle, we used the think of our boys storming the beaches of Normandy under withering fire, climbing the cliffs of Pointe do Hoc while enemy soldiers fired straight down on them, and tossing grenades into pill boxes to take out gun emplacements.

That kind of heroism has apparently become passe when it comes to awarding the Medal of Honor. We now award it only for preventing casualties, not for inflicting them.

That is factually wrong.

If Fischer wants someone to win the MoH for "tossing grenades" and taking "out gun emplacements", he need look no further than Staff Sgt. Miller.

If he wants an Audie Murphy type stand on a tank against an on rushing enemy that results in dozens of dead bad guys, he need look no further than SFC Smith.

Or do these sorts of actions not count if it also leads to the rescue of fellow soldiers?

If we only awarded MoHs for division on division set piece battles like Normandy, we'd award none for Iraq and Afghanistan.

You and Fischer are entitled to your opinions but not your own facts.

70 The question of who should receive the MoH has always been a tricky one.  See LT Winters and the Brecourt Manor assault.  You are always going to have those who are deserving of the award but do not receive it.

71 As has been said a hell of a lot better than I can, this guy is completely clueless about the MoH, and those that have been awarded it for acts of selfless courage I can't even begin to imagine myself.

His premise that it should have be awarded for enemy assaults and killings, and not for defensive life saving acts of heroism speaks of complete basic lack of understanding what it means to lay your life on the line for your fellow soldiers.

Yes, sometimes that means charging the machine gun to wipe a threat out to your squadmates.

Oftentimes it means pulling your brothers to safety in the face of that same gunfire.

I know a MoH awardee, his name is Gary Beikirch. I met him when I was maybe eight or nine years old. At the time I only knew him as the guy who owned the gun store we bought our clay pigeons and ammo from. My dad who was in the Marines during Viet Nam, spoke about him with an almost hushed reverence. My dad didn't speak about anyone in that way, and I didn't understand why until he was talking about his experience during his time in the Marines as "nothing compared to what Gary did", to which I asked when I was about 20 or so why Gary was so special. My dad told me that Gary was awarded the Medal of Honor in the war. I didn't have the first idea what that meant. So I looked it up.
Taken from the MoH Army recipients page:

Sgt. Beikirch, medical aidman, Detachment B-24, Company B, distinguished himself during the defense of Camp Dak Seang. The allied defenders suffered a number of casualties as a result of an intense, devastating attack launched by the enemy from well-concealed positions surrounding the camp. Sgt. Beikirch, with complete disregard for his personal safety, moved unhesitatingly through the withering enemy fire to his fallen comrades, applied first aid to their wounds and assisted them to the medical aid station. When informed that a seriously injured American officer was lying in an exposed position, Sgt. Beikirch ran immediately through the hail of fire. Although he was wounded seriously by fragments from an exploding enemy mortar shell, Sgt. Beikirch carried the officer to a medical aid station. Ignoring his own serious injuries, Sgt. Beikirch left the relative safety of the medical bunker to search for and evacuate other men who had been injured. He was again wounded as he dragged a critically injured Vietnamese soldier to the medical bunker while simultaneously applying mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to sustain his life. Sgt. Beikirch again refused treatment and continued his search for other casualties until he collapsed. Only then did he permit himself to be treated. Sgt. Beikirch's complete devotion to the welfare of his comrades, at the risk of his life are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit on him, his unit, and the U.S. Army.

This guy that wrote that the MoH has become "feminized" doesn't know jackshit about the MoH, and the servicemen that have earned it, and he ought to issue an apology for his ignorance and the slander he's thrown on those that have earned it.

72
Or do these sorts of actions not count if it also leads to the rescue of fellow soldiers?

Did you read the first sentence in his essay? Please stop throwing up this strawman.

73 Feminization really sounds to me like the "polite" way to say pussification.

74 As Drew.M and Islamo-apologist in chief Gabe have no objections, i'll just spit it out.

US army is gay and has been gay since it led the cowardly NATO bombing of Serb civilians.  Skirmishes with dozens of ragtag, imbred and mostly retarded terrorists isn't bravery - it's a joke. The fact the terrorists if A-stan haven't been defeated is a result of both commanders and soldiers acting in the most cowardly way possible. Can't wait for a real fight with the Chicoms or anybody else: they'd wipe the fucking floor with the so called heroes of your gay armed forces, and sweep the blood and shit left by the cowards with the stars and bars flag. It's all it's good for anyway.

75 Posted by: Yogi the Bearer at November 20, 2010 01:22 PM (raw9e)

Boy I seriously hope you're trolling, and not serious.

76 I wonder if this asshole Fischer thinks Gordon and Shughart's Medals of Honor from the Battle of Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down)  reflect this "feminized" standard.

All Medals of Honor are for acts of unbelievable courage and devotion but those two even stand out in that crowd in my mind. Why? They were safe above in their helo as the battle raged below. They could have done their jobs from relative safety and still been heroes. But they litterally begged (they asked to be inserted 3 times before getting the ok) to be allowed to land and do what they could for the downed crew. They knew they were likely asking for something that meant their deaths and yet....

The number of goober tribesmen they killed wasn't of any strategic importance...it was about giving another solider a chance to live. A chance these two men willing gave away.

If that's "feminizing" the MoH, then so be it.

77
The 'stars and bars' flag is the Confederate flag, Stephen Hawking.

78 Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 01:16 PM (uFokq)

And when are you going to acknowledge that Miller and Smith (at the least) qualify for Fischer's version of the MoH?

The heart of his thesis, "We now award it only for preventing casualties, not for inflicting them." is demonstrably false.

You're essentially defending someone who says 2+2=7.

79
You're right about Paul Smith.

Miller's medal was for Viet Nam.

80 Miller's medal was for Viet Nam.
Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 01:45 PM (uFokq)

Meet Staff Sgt. Robert James Miller

81 75 What Unclefacts said.

82
oh, there's another Miller.

It appears his medal for his self-sacrifice and saving others, not for his kills.

So far you have Smith who has received the medal for kills. Anyone else?

83 Toss me some learning here, people...doesn't the impetus for any CMoH come from the military itself, specifically those who have some idea what the prospective recipient actually did on the battlefield? And doesn't it then go up the military chain of command before arriving at Congress?

Who the hell would have a better idea who should get it? I can't imagine how anyone could set specific standards for the Medal. It ain't a service medal, or a marksmanship award.

I'll simply take it on faith that each CMoH was merited. If we start setting quotas for it, we're screwed anyway.

84 Posted by: Alex at November 20, 2010 01:06 PM (yY28H)

Winters was nominated for the MOH and would have gotten it if not for an insane rule that allowed only one MOH per division that participated in Overlord. The MOH for the 101st went to LTC Robert Cole for his actions at Purple Heart Lane.

85 67 jane i'm on your side.....fischer should stfu.....of course he's entitled to his opinion...it doesn't mean he should have expressed it...that's all i was saying....

86 Feminized. Right. Because it's so GIRLY to throw yourself on a grenade. Just make sure you're not wearing your Jimmy Choo's, 'cause shrapnel tears em up something FIERCE.

87 Posted by: MrScribbler© at November 20, 2010 02:27 PM (Ulu3i)

The award has two methods of being awarded. One is the traditional military route and the other is an act of congress.

88 Master Sergeant Gary R. Gordon United States Army Killed in action, Mogadishu, 10-03-1993 From his citation: Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

89 The award has two methods of being awarded. One is the traditional military route and the other is an act of congress.
Posted by: Holger at November 20, 2010 02:52 PM

Okay. I thought it always had to be vetted by the military and then approved by an Act of Congress.

Doesn't change my conclusions.

In any case, it's not a bullshit "award" like the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which apparently can be handed out to anyone who can fog a mirror so long as whoever's in the White House wants 'em to have it.

If I'm ever fortunate enough to meet a CMoH recipient, I'll still revere him (or her).

90 Sergeant First Class Randall D. Shugart United States Army Killed in action, Mogadishu, 10-03-1993 From his citation: Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader(MSgt Gordon) unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members.... Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

91

84 the MoH can be awarded through chain of command or upon recommendation by a member of Congress

Perhaps a little story from my life would explain what I see as the difference between hero as Rambo and valor above and beyond which should explain why I take issue with Mr. Fischer: A veteran of the Pacific told me about his first engagement, in which he and his company had set up for the night, and were coping with taunts coming from the enemy lines not too far away. Being fresh to combat, more than a little jumpy, yet still a hot blooded young teen he was more than a bit eager to close with the enemy and prove himself to his mates...and he was, quote: "really effing pissed at those damn Japs...for trying to kill me, for killing my buddies, for cutting people up, and now for heckling". He went on to chuckle and say "this is the thought process of a wet behind the ears, young punkass marine...I was pissed that they had the effing balls to try and kill me and then make fun of me at night so I couldn't get any sleep...because I was stupid and green enough to think war was decent enough to not make fun of you and allow a person to sleep when they really needed it!"  So, he got mad, fixed his bayonet, charged a machine gun nest, and managed to kill everybody in that emplacement with his bayonet "just to show them Marines could do it too", then he ran back across to his own lines.  Pretty ballsy, Rambo like stuff, right?  Taking it aggressively to the enemy and killing them

...he got thunked in the head (hard) and cursed (quietly) by his sargent, and pretty much everyone else.  What he had done was stupid and not merit worthy; what he had done, although it took guts, was not done for selfless service to his comrades, in fact it endangered the lives of his comrades as well as jeopardizing the outcome of the mission, in order to satisfy his own agenda...and he rightfully was chastized instead of honored for it, because it wasn't valorous -- it was ballsy, but not heroic.  Mr. Fischer seems to make that mistake too; you don't deserve the MoH for just killing bad guys or acting like Rambo (in fact, that sort of thing, as the story above relates, can be the worst thing a combat troop can engage in).

That was the point of the story he told me too -- killing bad guys is part of the job description; doing what you're supposed to be doing doesn't make you any more heroic than the guy right next to you; you have to do above and beyond that, out of a sense of service rather than self to be worthy of the MoH.

92 Posted by: Soothsayer in Chief at November 20, 2010 01:57 PM (uFokq)

First of all, Fischer's claim was "We now award it only for preventing casualties, not for inflicting them" so the rest of his column is based on a false pretense. Smith's actions put the claim that the MoH is "only" awarded for "preventing causalities".

Did you even read Miller's citation? Explain to me how this doesn't qualify as " tossing grenades into pill boxes to take out gun emplacements." that Fisher misses oh so much.


As point man, Staff Sergeant Miller was at the front of the patrol, cut off from supporting elements, and less than 20 meters from enemy forces. Nonetheless, with total disregard for his own safety, he called for his men to quickly move back to covered positions as he charged the enemy over exposed ground and under overwhelming enemy fire in order to provide protective fire for his team. While maneuvering to engage the enemy, Staff Sergeant Miller was shot in his upper torso. Ignoring the wound, he continued to push the fight, moving to draw fire from over one hundred enemy fighters upon himself. He then again charged forward through an open area in order to allow his teammates to safely reach cover. After killing at least 10 insurgents, wounding dozens more, and repeatedly exposing himself to withering enemy fire while moving from position to position, Staff Sergeant Miller was mortally wounded by enemy fire.

You're going to say that's not for attacking the enemy and killing them?

So there are at least 2 of the recipients for the current conflict were awarded for closing and killing the enemy. 2 (Murphy and Giunta) are somewhat combination cases and the other 4 are for were for falling on a grenade.

We've gone from 'all' to half.

93 Posted by: MDH3 at November 20, 2010 02:53 PM (ynM5P)

Gordon was a pussy. He died to save a fellow service member rather than dying killing as many Skinnies as possible. And it is further proof of the pussification of the US Military awarded him the MOH.

Apparently it is only honorable to kill the enemy./

94 86  Oops!  Sorry -- I thought you were talking to me (now I feel bad).  If you're ever in BFE LOL, look me up and I'll buy you a round for jumping you when I shouldn't have.

95 anyhow, here's the full archive if anyone's interested. http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-archive.php Feminized, my ass.

96 "Gordon was a pussy." Oh, were you there?

97 Oh, were you there?

Posted by: MDH3 at November 20, 2010 03:02 PM (ynM5P)

That was sarcasm. The slash mark at the end turns the Sarcasm off.

98 My bad, sorry.

99 If anyone remembers the 1980's, the American Family Association was the same crew of Bible-thumping loons who said that if we played Dungeons and Dragons, we'd turn into Satantic cultists who'd fail out of school, develop drug habits, and die in gay sex orgies. Reverend Wildmon might have retired, but I consider the whole batch on par with Westboro Baptists as IRL trolls and attention whores.

100 Fischer owes the entire military an apology. Of course, he's too much of an ass ever to do that.

101 A couple of points, I totally agree with the point above that its not a medal for body counts or some F-16 pilots would have a dozen of them. 

If you read Paul Smith's citation you will see a remarkable similarity to Audie Murphy's, who was the iconic Medal of Honor winner of WWII.  Murphy lived, both otherwise the situations were remarkably similar. 

On Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart, I was at Fort Bragg back in the day and still have a ton of friends in Special Forces.  The movie Blackhawk Down captured the moment well of them radioing back to Wild Bill Garrison for permission to go in, to hold off the attack and try to buy time for others to save the downed pilots.  They knew with complete certainty they had no hope of coming out alive and still went in.  The movie conveys that well but the story I always heard was that they demanded to be put down and the Task Force 160 pilot (Night Stalkers, who are among the bravest/craziest as well) refused to go in to set them down because it was a suicide mission.  I never met either guy but have a second degree connection to both of them and the story I heard was the radio call to Garrison to ask for permission was because after the pilot refused, Gordon or Shughart pointed their weapon at him and ordered him to put the bird down in the middle of the fight.  The pilot (who was incredibly brave as well, just not crazy) said he would only do it if Garrison ordered it, hence the radio call. 

I don't know for certain that first part happened before the radio call but I do believe its true, knowing the guys I heard it from. 

102 Another point that Fischer is completely clueless on is that we aren't fighting WWII style trench warfare anymore.  His cable TV must have been out during the 1991 Desert Storm tour, which established clearly that the US military has not be built for hand to hand combat, but for obliterating the enemy with smart munitions before they are anywhere near US soldiers.  The opportunity for Audie Murphy style Medal of Honor situations is much lower in modern warfare. 

If someone hasn't been in the military and questions the valor of current Medal of Honor awardees, I highly recommending viewing the animated "Battlescape" of Robbie Miller of 3rd Special Forces Group on the Army Website -

http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/miller/battlescape.html

In non-military regular english, picture yourself on the field of a huge stadium like the Rose Bowl or Cotton Bowl.  Then picture the steps going up being a mountain, but three times higher.  Its dark, its snowing, its high elevation and you are carrying close to 100 pounds of equipment, water and ammunition.  You are walking point with a 12 man A Team behind you along with some less than dynamic Afghan Soldiers about a third of the way up that mountain. 

200 Taliban soldiers begin firing from the rocks ahead of you.  The Afghans with you sprint to the rear and you instantly know that your entire team has virtually no hope of surviving this ambush.  They outnumber your guys 10 to 1 and spend days getting into position for this ambush. 

What did Robbie Miller do?  He charged straight ahead, killing dozens of the enemy, knowing that he would never make it out but it might buy enough time for his team to pull back and survive.  Maybe.  He went straight ahead and fought for hours, drawing fire away from his team, radioing back enemy positions so the Team Leader could call in an attack on those positions.  After several hours he was wounded, bleeding and low on ammo.  The enemy closed in around him, knowing he was almost finished. 

What did Robbie Miller do then? 

He charged them AGAIN. 

Watch that animation on the link above, its mindboggling. The argument can be made the Miller earned the award twice that day. 

103

I had never heard of Fischer before reading about this article and I don't feel very strongly motivated to defend him now.  It's entirely possible that if I took the time read some of his other articles I would find that he "has an agenda".  But I must admit that when I went to Gabe's link to read some guy talking about 'feminizing" the medal of honor I was expecting something else.  I found it thought provoking.  I wonder if maybe there are soldiers, marines etc. who deserve the medal of honor for bravery in killing enemies but don't receive it because their action didn't directly involve saving someone's life.  I don't think he came anywhere close to proving that point, I just wonder if there's something to it.  There seem to be an awful lot fewer medals of honor awarded in the GWOT than in previous wars.  I find it hard to believe that it's because today's soldiers are that much less deserving.