1

EVIDENCE!!!!1!!!1!!!

Seriously, I am never going to be talked out of my birther persuasion now.

2 If only BHO would have run for president in his home country.

3 You're banned from RedState forever Michelle, you Birfer scum! VIGILANCE!

4  Barack is not intimidated by homophobia!

5 It might as well be, given how little he seems to understand the country that elected him president.

6 Oye ve... that statement alone should be on every GOP advertisement. Not from the "birther" perspective, but from that angle that this man truly doesn't know about or care about what it means to be American. But then again, they could've done that in 2008 too and passed. And the media will slam the GOP as conspiracy-mongering, even if it's not, but that's enough to scare them. So I'm not holding my breath.

7 Was she using Barry's teleprompter?

8 He may have been born here, but he has no freaking clue as to who Americans are or why they might be a proud people. Not a single clue.

9 Home?

10 As much as I'd like to tweak Gabe on this one more time, I think the whole birth certificate thing needs to be relegated to historical footnote status.  Yes it should matter, but it didn't. 

We can work on his *otherness* for the next two and a half years by forcing him to go obstructionist on our quest to repeal health care deform.

11 Folks here on my home planet of Xenon don't take well to these kinds of insinuations.

12 It's still alarming that she doesn't even blink at calling anything other than the United States her husband's "home country."

And, aside from the actual physical birth, that is exactly what the Founders intended to proscribe with the "natural born citizen" clause.

Anyone who thinks the Founders wanted to even allow someone heading our Executive and Commander-in-Chief, who could call anywhere other than the US his "home country", just doesn't understand what they were all about.

13 Barry took a public HIV test and passed?   hmmm

14 Any chance they could get a psych eval as a couple?

15 Barack is still not intimidated by homophobia!

16 The President has spent tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees covering up this birth certificate biz. To get a copy of the real thing from Hawaii would cost fifteen bucks and the whole controversy would go poof.

17
You're banned from RedState forever Michelle, you Birfer scum! VIGILANCE!

Posted by: Erick Erickson at April 04, 2010 09:45 PM (F5Gxy)

And dont even think of trying to register over at LGF Michelle, you nirther tea-bagger scum.

Stinky has your number.


I bid you adieu.

18 Hey, didnt BHO slip up with Stephanopolus during a campaign interview by referring to his "Muslim Faith"? It may be getting difficult for these people to keep track of all the BS they have fed the American public.

19 I wish the fucker was President of Kenya.

20 I just wish Michelle would just shut up.  She sounds like a white girl.  That doesn't advance her street cred at all.

Hey I saw somewhere that a new Rasmussen at Obama at like 39%.  I wonder if it's true.

21

Guess we know where he'll be moving in February 2013 or 2017.

Actually, if he's the Prezidizzle until 2017, Kenya will probably be a more advanced country that whatever's left of the US.

22 The good thing is he doesn't get secret service protection for life anymore.  Should save us a ton of money if he moves to Kenya.

23 anybody watching either Yankees/Red Sox or UCONN women and Baylor.

24 Some America-haters who are black consider themselves African and not American even if they were born and raised here.  Either way, these two are the worst thing that has happen to this country.

25 ha ha...neener, neener. Told you so.

26 22 The good thing is he doesn't get secret service protection for life anymore.  Should save us a ton of money if he moves to Kenya.

Actually, Harry Reid made an exception just for the Obamas. Apparently we rascist tea-baggers are all wannabe assassins.

_{/FTR, shame on anyone who tries to do such a wicked thing.}

27 22 The good thing is he doesn't get secret service protection for life anymore.  Should save us a ton of money if he moves to Kenya.

Posted by: jaimo at April 04, 2010 10:02 PM (5yRUv)

You don't believe that...really...This effete snob? He might not even move out of the White House. Hell, they'll bury him there in MO's watermelon patch. We're never gonna be rid of this prick.

28 Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate Kenyan-born US Senate hopeful, Barrack Obama, appeared set to take over the Illinois Senate seat after his main rival, Jack Ryan, dropped out of the race on Friday night amid a furor over lurid sex club allegations. The allegations that horrified fellow Republicans and caused his once-promising candidacy to implode in four short days have given Obama a clear lead as Republicans struggled to fetch an alternative. RyanÂ’s campaign began to crumble on Monday following the release of embarrassing records from his divorce. In the records, his ex-wife, Boston Public actress Jeri Ryan, said her former husband took her to kinky sex clubs in Paris, New York and New Orleans. tiny.cc/8z0qn

29 It makes me happy to believe that somewhere, Chief Justice Roberts has BO's long form certificate, and is waiting for the moment when the nation plunges in communism. At that moment, he will release the document, BO will be banished and all will be right with the world.

Yeah, I know I live in a fantasy world. It's all I've got now.

sigh.

30 There is something embarrassing about Obama's birth certificate, otherwise it would not have been released redacted. Malor you're carrying Obama's water. We should demand to see the whole thing, simply to embarrass him, and not let him get away with this crap. Apologizing and explaining and justifying Obama is something I expect out of Daily Kos. Either his father is listed "unknown" or he is listed as "White" or his father is someone other than Barack Obama Sr, is the likely issue here. We should not let Obama get away with one inch of BS. He's claimed to be the "Half Blood Prince" to redeem America from the sin of racism. We ought to expose it -- his father wasn't listed, or was some other guy, or whatever it was. Who knows, it might even be that he was not born in the US, so much BS, scandals, and stuff hushed up by a compliant court system and press covering for the Black guy(tm) ... as always ... that it would not shock me to see that the courts in Hawaii figured that they would not stand in the way of "history" particularly given the reflexive anti-White bigotry and hatred of most Hawaiians.

31 Homophobia can cause AIDS. If you're scared of gay dudes, you won't remember to ask the guy who's ass-fucking you to put a rubber on, and you'll probably clench up and bleed and chafe up his wang. I'm sure that's what she meant.

32 This is a big fucking deal.

33 Dissension in the ranks?

This could get interesting. If only someone, somewhere had standing to challenge perhaps the simplest resume requirement ever put to paper. Oh, well. Whatyagonnado? It's just the Presidency.

34 @29: Shibumi - not to worry - depending on where you are in the US Mexico del Norte/Canadienne Sud your government may be located in Mexico City or Ottowa.

35 "... visited his home country, in Kenya." -- Sasquatch

There are countries IN Kenya?  I need some new maps. 

What if Palin had spoken about a "country, in Kenya"?  Whoa, boy!

36

anybody watching either Yankees/Red Sox or UCONN women and Baylor.

Watching both.

37 @35: Anyone with the surname Obama speaks perfect English.  Websters will be updated to correct previous misuse.

38

Gabriel (lawyer et al) could note that some states have changed thier election/ballot rules because of this.

That might be the only angle where this "embarrasment" gets the sunlight that some people desire. And in a way that does not 'tarnish' the RNC stance.

Anyone have a link for those states, and how they changed thier state board of election laws? It might need some research, linking actual laws, rather than the birther sites out there.

(or this is an idea for a follow-on post)??

39

She was clean, articulate and didnt have a negro dialect.

If she was selling watermelons on the side of the road.... I'd stop.

40 I can see Kenya from my backyard.

41

lol, right from the "horses" mouth..  couldnt resist.... who's the master?

42 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 04, 2010 09:54 PM (N49h9)

ELEVENTY!!11!!1!  There's no way the Founders blah blah blah!

43 Gabe never argued the birther issue. He simply refused to comprehend valid sensible points, and declared them wrong, and that anyone who tries to discuss the issue is a fool or a nut.

Take this for example. His pronouncement that Hawaiian law somehow trumps US constitutional law. And he thinks We're the idiots. 


Gabe appears to be quite intelligent in some of his articles, but on this particular issue, he is completely biased and unreasonable.

44 fat twat

45

Anyone have a link for those states, and how they changed thier state board of election laws? It might need some research, linking actual laws, rather than the birther sites out there.

(or this is an idea for a follow-on post)??

Posted by: Cromagnum at April 04, 2010 10:19 PM (UGrme)

Arizona has voted to do this. In Oklahoma, the measure was defeated in the Senate. It will get brought up again i'm sure.

46

@38: "And in a way that does not 'tarnish' the RNC stance."

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm lightyears beyond giving a tuppenny fuck what the RNC thinks or believes.  Given their utter inability to ever stand up to the continuing advance of domestic communism, their position on anything should be presumed to be the incorrect one.  Maybe that presumption can be rebutted, but the burden should definitely be on them to show why anyone would ever listen to them.

47

These people are so full of shit. His "home country"? Did he live there? No. He lived in Indonesia. His father was from there. If he wasn't born there then why would she call it that? That's very weird. I'm assuming she was trying to make him sound international or global.

He does not seem to grasp Americans but that is no surprise. His mentors, his education, his friends, his preacher, and his wife let alone his echo chamber HATE the United States as we understand it. They truely do want some sort of united nations rule of the world where everything is fair for everybody even if that means everyone lives in grass huts and shits in the ditch. They want global reparations--that's what AGW is all about--those 3rd world countries get their "share" of the world's wealth.

In M'chelle's mind and Barak's white colonial powers CAUSED the 3rd world to be 3rd world and they want to settle the score. Thomas Sowell in "migrations and cultures" explains that africa is mostly interior with no navigable rives and no beasts of burden and no hardly any seaports. They never developed the trade or civ.ilization that were available to other better located places. They would like to correct for that at the expense of the US

48 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:20 PM (eVJ7T)

To what valid sensible points do you refer?

49 Birtherism Update: I don't want to get into the debate again so I'll just link this long post discussing the issue last July.

You were incorrect.  If you still believe it, then you are still incorrect.

or can't be a natural born citizen if he ever held dual citizenship or--the most fringe and most offensive suggestion I've seen--that the children of aliens (legal or illegal) born in this country cannot be natural born citizens

Now THAT was offensive - though just an offense to the intellect.  I liked how you categorized it under "conspiracy theory".  Didn't they ever teach you what a conspiracy is?  Or do you just like to throw that phrase out as the leftists toss out "racist"?

Tell me, Gabe, why didn't the Founders allow American dual citizens?  Why did we fight the War of 1812?  Why is the oath of citizenship that we STILL force naturalized Americans to take start out as:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;"

Are you offended by that oath?  You certainly must be.

50

In short, my message is for the waverers: don't fall for Birtherism. First, the President is a natural born citizen; he proved it the only way current Hawaii law allows. Second, under no circumstances should you support a movement that wants the courts to start overthrowing lawful elections and, in fact, I want you to join me in condemning the very notion. Third, don't make this the Republican version of the "selected not elected" movement.

To your first point...There is no law in Hawai'i that I am aware of to prohibit Obama to authorize the release of the original long form birth certificate...which is the only document which could definitively verify or not whether he is natural born.

There is a law in HI that allows one to get a birth certificate even if the individual is born outside the US.

If Obama were born outside the US...AND I AM NOT SAYING HE WAS...then because of his particular familial circumstances..he would not be natural born. If  one were born outside the country and one of the parents was not a citizen...then the other must have lived in the US for ten years prior to giving birth...five of those years after the age of 16.

His mother was only 18 when she birfed him

Secondly...OK let's not try to overturn this election...BUT..he most probably will run again...so why not have him to prove he is natural born before that?

Third...this is in no way comparable to the "selected not elected" crap. We have a Constitution...no one...not even the President should be able to pick and choose the provisons he wants to adhere to..

..nor should that Sgt. Schultz look-alik,e fat fucking idiot Phil Hare of IL

51 whiskey,  I am in agreement with you.   his desperation to hide that certificate doesn't have to do with where he was born,  but who his parents were.

My theory is that his father was that Frank Marshall Davis (I think that's his name) who was a communist and an American.

Obama didn't want to claim an old black communist guy so he invented the father from Kenya.  It also explains why he has no familial feeling for his supposed brother who is STILL living in a shack in a slum,  when a couple of hundred dollars would give him a far better life.

So,  we then have an explanation why all of these communist people took an interest in young Barry.

52 Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:20 PM (1fanL)

Good argument, Einstein.

53 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 04, 2010 10:22 PM (N49h9)

You completely ignore others when they refute your stupid arguments.

54 10 As much as I'd like to tweak Gabe on this one more time, I think the whole birth certificate thing needs to be relegated to historical footnote status.  Yes it should matter, but it didn't. 

We can work on his *otherness* for the next two and a half years by forcing him to go obstructionist on our quest to repeal health care deform.

Posted by: Methos at April 04, 2010 09:50 PM (Xsi7M)

To me, it isn't just the issue of whether it is relevant to the country, it is the fact that the investigation was declared over by some, and then the rest of us who didn't find their argument convincing were verbally assaulted as nuts and kooks.

*I* have researched this issue better than most. The one thing i'm certain of is that NOTHING has been PROVEN, and i'm disgusted with people claiming it has.

55 Was he born in Hawaii?  Then unless he renounced his citizenship at age 18 or over, he's an American citizen.  Natural-born.

56 I think the birthers are asking the wrong question.

The correct question is:
For a candidate who ran on transparency, why have you hired multiple law firms and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars hiding your birth certitifcate.

57
Either his father is listed "unknown" or he is listed as "White" or his father is someone other than Barack Obama Sr, is the likely issue here







I think it has someone else listed as the father.

58 48 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:20 PM (eVJ7T)

To what valid sensible points do you refer?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:22 PM (1fanL)

How about the Original meaning of the Natural Born Citizen clause? Seems pretty relevant to the topic.

How about the fact that a computer printout doesn't prove a damn thing. *I* have a birth certificate from my state which is nothing but a pack of lies. Why is Gabe et al so certain Obama's isn't the same ?

I could mention probably a Dozen points that are reasonable, but Gabe and others simply won't discuss them.

59 progress: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;"

That's why I wrote "American" on my census. I was born in the UK, I'll never get over certain British habits, and I'll always have a strange accent. But I threw away my EU passport in '94 when I took that oath.

It helps that my future liege would have been Prince Charles if I hadn't done it, but still.

60

..nor should that Sgt. Schultz look-alik,e fat fucking idiot Phil Hare of IL

Posted by: beedubya at April 04, 2010 10:22 PM (AnTyA)

Excellent post dude.

61 "There's a part of the Tea Party that actually did exist before I was elected ... where there's some folks who just weren't sure whether I was born in the United States, whether I was a socialist. But I've cleared up all your doubts, haven't I, honey?"

62

I could give a shit about Obama's birth. However, he needs to produce his long form with all the info on it just like I have to answer the fucking census because it's a constitutional requirement. Not producing it has let to all the suppositions. Hawaii law? Who cares. The supremacy clause is supreme. I bet he says he caucasian which defeats the myth. Finding out Jesus is egyptian throws the whole messiah out.

Regardless of his legitimacy, why are there questions about this douchebag? He was never vetted. We know about Frank Marshall Davis and the Pokisstoni but not because it's common knowledge.

63

Posted by: baldilocks at April 04, 2010 10:28 PM

There's a theory out there that seems fucking crazy ..

...but check out this picture...notice the ears...and imagine him with a really dark tan

64

That's why I wrote "American" on my census. I was born in the UK, I'll never get over certain British habits, and I'll always have a strange accent. But I threw away my EU passport in '94 when I took that oath.

Good show, Zimriel, but I think you might have offended Gabe with that move ...

It helps that my future liege would have been Prince Charles if I hadn't done it, but still.

Posted by: Zimriel at April 04, 2010 10:31 PM (yXpUz)

Heh.  And look what you got yourself into, here.  The Indonesian Imbecile about to dictate your every action. 

I think you might have "bought the top", nationality-wise

65 55 Was he born in Hawaii?  Then unless he renounced his citizenship at age 18 or over, he's an American citizen.  Natural-born.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:27 PM (1fanL)

From the research i've done on this issue, it is apparent to me that it wouldn't matter if he was born in the U.S. Congressional Chambers, the original intent REQUIRED the father to be an American.

People nowadays believe the 14th amendment trumps the "Natural Born Citizen" clause. It doesn't.

66 Whether he's a Kenyan or a Hawaiian, I think we can all agree he's a commie bastard.
.
 

67 You completely ignore others when they refute your stupid arguments.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:24 PM (1fanL)

You refuted something?  What?

68 The correct question is:
For a candidate who ran on transparency, why have you hired multiple law firms and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars hiding your birth certitifcate.

Posted by: LousisanaLightning at April 04, 2010 10:28 PM (Nsz+x)

It is but one issue among many. That's the problem with this topic. There are a multiplicity of possible answers and issues.

69 It is my understanding that HIV in Africa is passed predominately by heterosexual sex whereas in the USA it is passed by homosexual contact and sharing dirty needles. How does this make it a "homophobic" issue? I can understand the problem in Africa because many do not have the education we have but here in the USA there is no excuse for any adult getting the virus unless they are in the medical field and happen to have an accident. Lastly, MO should acknowledge the great strides the Bush Administration made to combat AIDS in Africa.

70 It's not only BHO's birth certificate. Why can't I look at his SAT scores, or IL Bar application?
The fucker applied for federal job. There ought to be no prohibited area in his background, no matter what some Malor tells me.

71

i wanna see his adoption records when he went to live in Indo.

 

72 63 Nice communist family photos. So he looks like grandpa? I don't get it.

73

Hey   progressoverpeace , is there some way of contacting you? Are you part of the AOS group on yahoo?

Your posts are astute, and I believe the sharing of information is helpful to those of us trying to figure out which story is the actual truth.

74 It is my understanding that HIV in Africa is passed predominately by heterosexual sex whereas in the USA it is passed by homosexual contact and sharing dirty needles. How does this make it a "homophobic" issue?

Posted by: Bill R. at April 04, 2010 10:38 PM (EhlQq)

Don't know, but the one of the reasons it is so easily spread by heterosexual sex in Africa is that anal sex is much more frequent there.  But, because of political correctness, anal sex was never publicly discussed with respect to AIDs - gay groups vehemently opposed it and branded it "homophobia".

75

From the research i've done on this issue, it is apparent to me that it wouldn't matter if he was born in the U.S. Congressional Chambers, the original intent REQUIRED the father to be an American.

People nowadays believe the 14th amendment trumps the "Natural Born Citizen" clause. It doesn't.

Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:35 PM (eVJ7T)

Got a cite for the proposition that original intent held that the father has to be an American?  And the 14th A. might not trump the Natural Born Citizen Clause, but it clearly defines what a natural born citizen is, doesn't it?

76

74 Ouch.

 

77 70 It's not only BHO's birth certificate. Why can't I look at his SAT scores, or IL Bar application?
The fucker applied for federal job. There ought to be no prohibited area in his background, no matter what some Malor tells me.

Posted by: Gerbil Malodor at April 04, 2010 10:38 PM (SwpWP)

I believe you can see his bar application. On my other computer I've got links to a site for the guy that filed the bar complaint against Obama. In his complaint he references Obama's bar application, so if it's available to that guy, it can probably be obtained.

Obama was disbarred voluntarily rather than respond to the complaint. Had he attempted to challenge the complaint, he would have been forcibly disbarred.

78 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:41 PM (eVJ7T)

Thanks, Diogenes.  I like your posts, too.  We've been on a lot of these eligibility threads together.

My email is my username at yahoo.com and I belong to the HotAir group on Facebook (though I haven't started posting there, yet.)  It's an excellent group of commenters from Hotair, though.  I just have this thing about Facebook ...

Let me find the link ...  here.

79 I know this sounds cruel, but why am I supposed to get worked up about a disease that is spread by sex? Should those people that are in a population dying from it perhaps care enough not to have sex with people that could be infected?

80

Here is what I am saying.

Obama has not proved that he is natural born. "Shut the fuck up, is why" is not a response that's going to settle the issue fro me.

There is a law in HI that allows the parents to obtain for their child a valid HI birth certificate even if the child were born outside the country:

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

If Jug Ears were born outside the country he could still have a HI birth certificate and be a citizen...but he then would not be natural born because 1) his father was not a citizen, and 2) his mother did not live in the US for five years after the age of 16 prior to giving birth.

The document that is floating around in cyberspace is not his original long form birth certificate and doesn nor prove shit. The issue is not settled..but it could be simply by Obama authorizing the release.

Why the fuck won't he do it? It;s estimated that $2 million has been spent in legal fees blocking the release. Why doesn't he? What the fuck is he hiding?

81 At one time Gabe had agreed that the birth issue was a legitimate issue and posted the same on his own blog. That he now ridicules others tells me all I need to know about him.

82 I bet he says he caucasian which defeats the myth.







So what.  It's obvious that he's part black. He's darker that my mom.

83 MO should acknowledge the great strides the Bush Administration made to combat AIDS in Africa.

Notice no one in the media ever reported on that. Bush gave more to Africa to combat AIDS than any sitting president. Obama slashed that funding.

84 Posted by: beedubya at April 04, 2010 10:48 PM (AnTyA)

So you don't think he was born in Hawaii? 

85 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:41 PM (eVJ7T)

Oh, and someone just posted a really interesting quote from the writer of the 14th, I think.  I can't remember it, exactly, but it was about the question of allegiance and some of what was assumed at the time.  Something like that.  I'll try to find it.

86 "I'm sure she's not a birther and believes, like most of us, that the President was born in the United States. It's still alarming that she doesn't even blink at calling anything other than the United States her husband's "home country." Just a bit.

87 What do we know about the bar complaint?

88

FUBAR writes:

"Got a cite for the proposition that original intent held that the father has to be an American?"

Actually I do. Would you bother to look at it? I know Gabe wasn't the slightest bit interested.

For what it's worth, there are at least a dozen websites with reference material to this very issue. The best one i've seen so far is by an attorney named Mario Apuzzo. He lays out excellent legal arguments and history on this issue.

FUBAR writes:

And the 14th A. might not trump the Natural Born Citizen Clause, but it clearly defines what a natural born citizen is, doesn't it?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:42 PM (1fanL)

No, it does not. It defines what a CITIZEN is, but not what a "Natural Born Citizen" is. For that matter, Obama doesn't even meet the requirements of the 14th Amendment according to George Will in one of his recent columns.

You might not accept MY opinion as reasonable, but I think you might listen to George Will.

89 "From the research i've done on this issue, it is apparent to me that it wouldn't matter if he was born in the U.S. Congressional Chambers, the original intent REQUIRED the father to be an American." Stop doing 'research' on websites run by idiots.

90 I'd like to believe, but I don't see how.  If he was born in Hawaii, and he didn't renounce his citizenship, he's a citizen.  And the 14th A., to the extent it contradicts the Natural Born Citizen Clause (which I don't think it does) supercedes it.

It might have been a viable issue at one time, but not anymore.

91
My email is my username at yahoo.com and I belong to the HotAir group on Facebook (though I haven't started posting there, yet.)  It's an excellent group of commenters from Hotair, though.  I just have this thing about Facebook ...

Let me find the link ...  here.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 04, 2010 10:47 PM (N49h9)

Cool. I'll contact you either today or tomorrow and we can compare notes.

92 And the 14th A. might not trump the Natural Born Citizen Clause, but it clearly defines what a natural born citizen is, doesn't it?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:42 PM (1fanL)

Not at all.  "Natural born citizen" is not mentioned, at all, in the 14th.  And that was intentional, because "natural born citizen" was a pre-existing class that was generally understood.

93 Do we know why M'Chelle surrendered her law license? She's still bitching about the expense so why would she do that? Why did NO ONE vet these assholes?

94 Oh, and someone just posted a really interesting quote from the writer of the 14th, I think.  I can't remember it, exactly, but it was about the question of allegiance and some of what was assumed at the time.  Something like that.  I'll try to find it.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 04, 2010 10:50 PM (N49h9)

I've seen that.

George Will recently did an article about the 14th amendment, and following George Will's reasoning in his article, Obama DOESN'T qualify under the 14th amendment either.

I sent  the link to ace, and asked him to forward it to DrewM and Gabe, but I think none of them truly want to discuss this issue at all. They Vehemently don't want to discuss it!

95 So you don't think he was born in Hawaii? 

Posted by: FUBAR at April 04, 2010 10:49 PM

I don't know...and it's not my fuckig responsibility to prove it. It's Obama's.

What I have shown is that what Obama has proffered as proof that he was..does not prove that he was because there are circumstances that allow that a person born outside the US could still get a HI birth certificate..

..if so..he is not natural born.

This is a very viable possibilty. Therefore, Obama has not definitively proven he is natural born and constitutionally qualified to be President.

96 87 What do we know about the bar complaint?

Posted by: dagny at April 04, 2010 10:51 PM (VtkVk)

Quite a lot. I've posted a series of messages on this subject at a website called "Talkpolywell Dot org. (A nuclear fusion website devoted to the Polywell design by Dr. Robert Bussard)

I've got lots of links in there. Just look for the title "Why Obama was disbarred" in the General section.

97 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:56 PM (eVJ7T)

Thanks.  Yes, I think it was the Will column.

It's weird, because the fact that McCain happened to be the opponent, and the fact that the Indonesian Imbecile was one of the sponsors for the McCain eligibility resolution in the Senate should make everyone realize that this is not a one-sided issue.  No one complained about McCain having to go through that.  Many of us, myself and I would assume you, wanted McCain to have to prove his natural born citizen status, too, though the case was much clearer for McCain - but still had to be proven.  If McCain had had any integrity he would have demanded that the Indonesian match him ... but then, McCain couldn't even complain about the massive criminal abuse of campaign financing that the idiot messiah was doing as they had intentionally turned off the AVS on their credit card donations, enabling totally anonymous donations.  McCain couldn't even stand up for his own, un-Constitutional law.

It's just crazy.

98
Stop doing 'research' on websites run by idiots.

Posted by: Christoph at April 04, 2010 10:51 PM (0fq7b)

The research comes from Founders sources such as the "Citizenship Act" of 1791, and writings of the founders, and contemporaneous legal references. I believe even websites run by idiots can reference legitimate material in them.

Apart from that, do you think George Will is an idiot ?

99 Nullifying the 2008 election is impossible, but affecting the 2012 election is not. What is it with you, Gabe? Think about this. What if he truly is not qualified? Wouldn't you want to know for sure the next round?

100 I sent  the link to ace, and asked him to forward it to DrewM and Gabe, but I think none of them truly want to discuss this issue at all. They Vehemently don't want to discuss it!
Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 10:56 PM (eVJ7T)

That comment so wonderfully encapsulates so many of the pro-birther folks. Argument by assertion that's disconnected from any evidence and in reality the exact opposite of the truth.

I 'vehemently don't want to discuss it'? How many times have I gone through all these fights? 8,9, 10 times? And yet in your mind that equals not wanting to discuss it.

You seem to confuse an unwillingness to to accept your crackpot theories as an unwillingness to discuss it. They are not the same things.

101
FUBAR writes:

90 I'd like to believe, but I don't see how.  If he was born in Hawaii, and he didn't renounce his citizenship, he's a citizen.  And the 14th A., to the extent it contradicts the Natural Born Citizen Clause (which I don't think it does) supercedes it.


Not necessarily. There is a lot of noise about his trip to Pakistan. On my other computer (I'm not using it right now because it picked up mal ware from me cruising some pron sites.) I have a link to a very interesting article. Apparently someone filed a Freedom of Information Act FOIA request with the State Dept. Asking to see Obama's  Passport application. According to this fellow, the State Dept. responded that they did not have such a document on file.

This begs the question of how he could have a US passport without having filed a Passport application?

IF this is true, it lends some credibility to the argument about that Pakistani trip. If he didn't have an AMERICAN passport, how did he go to Pakistan? If he traveled on an Indonesian passport after reaching the age of 18, this may constitute an "Affirmative Act."  In other words, he may have unwittingly renounced his American citizenship.

The Jury is still out on this. I don't know if that guy who did the FOIA request is lying or not. That's the trouble with this issue. There is so much NOISE out there it's hard to get solid information.

Anyway, Read the George Will column on the 14th amendment, and ask yourself if Obama qualifies according to George Will.

102 93 Do we know why M'Chelle surrendered her law license? She's still bitching about the expense so why would she do that? Why did NO ONE vet these assholes?

Posted by: dagny at April 04, 2010 10:54 PM (VtkVk)

I've read articles that suggest it was a result of doing illegal things during the time she worked out of Chicago Mayor Daley's office. I've chased down a lot of leads on this issue, and that is an interesting theory which seems to be supported by the time line. The one thing that DOES appear to be established is that she was suspended for some sort of disciplinary reason.

103 If McCain had had any integrity he would have demanded that the Indonesian match him ... but then, McCain couldn't even complain about the massive criminal abuse of campaign financing that the idiot messiah was doing as they had intentionally turned off the AVS on their credit card donations, enabling totally anonymous donations.  McCain couldn't even stand up for his own, un-Constitutional law.

It's just crazy.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 04, 2010 11:03 PM (N49h9)

Note for the record, McCain was NOT born on American Soil or Territory. A lot of people believe he was born on the Military base, and that the base qualifies as American territory, However, McCain was born in the NATIVE hospital, and not on the base.

The original intent of the Natural Born Citizen clause requires American Parents, (especially the father) and it does not matter WHERE they were born.

104 We've got the First Lady of the United States on video describing Kenya as her husband's "home country"; we've got a sealed birth certificate and a multi-million dollar legal fight to keep it that way; we have members of Barry's own family who aren't even able to agree on which Honolulu hospital he was born in, and STILL any attempt to make sense of what the fuck is going on here is dismissed as a "crackpot theory" deserving of being shut down, in ways reminiscent of the global-warming hoaxers who declared that everyone had to shut up because the science was settled and the debate was over.

The question's worth asking again: What IS it with you people?

105 13 Barry took a public HIV test and passed?   hmmm

Posted by: beerologist at April 04, 2010 09:54 PM (tgXx6)

It's his only scholastic record that we have.

106 What is it with you, Gabe?

Think about this. What if he truly is not qualified? Wouldn't you want to know for sure the next round?

Posted by: eman at April 04, 2010 11:09 PM (3fzoU)

It's more important than that. *IF* he's not qualified, all his acts become void, including the health care bill.

There is currently no question in my mind regarding his legitimacy. Unless some new evidence comes up that I haven't seen before, having a Father who is not an American citizen is a deal killer for qualifying.

It doesn't really matter WHERE he was born.

107 "Natural" might have meant something at one time, like maybe something not created by the government.

108 I look at it this way; if a document is not sufficient for purposes of obtaining a driver's license or passport, then it should not be sufficient for becoming President of of the United States.

When I moved to TX and changed my driver's license, they would not accept my hospital birth certificate (with an original raised seal and footprints) and my unexpired, valid TN license as sufficient documentation. It had to be a long form, original COB.

I am sure that the the communist bastard is a citizen, but I want to know how the hell me managed to get a DL, passport and the rest without complete documents. I also the idea that the free pass this POS has been given is the one, truly "unprecedented" thing about him. Imagine if a white Republican who had been disbarred, attended a white supremacist church for 20 years, had a long, documented associations with persons akin to Timothy McVeigh and convicted felons, was involved with a questionable home purchase, was a former card-carrying member of a anti-government movement, while an attorney represented a corrupt, racially-motivated organization (that was subsequently de-funded by Congress then quietly re-funded by the said person after a string of exposes showing their corruption)... etc... and who would note/ could not produce complete educational and/ or citizenship documents that would be sufficient to obtain a DL or even pass a very basic, private sector background screening (yes, many jobs now require a credit check and original, sealed college transcripts)... etc...

Would that person be able to be elected President? <sigh> But I digress. We could go back to to the whole Sarah Palin media-lynching for the crime of believing in god, attending church and legitimately winning and holding the highest elected office in a US state (as opposed to running her opponent out of the election by exposing irrelevant, sealed court documents) to answer that question.

In short, if Teh Won were a natural-born citizen of Uranus and lacked even half the rest of the laundry list issues that should have prevented him from ever being considered for even the lowest-level public office, I'd be far more accepting of him in office. Sadly, this is not the case.

109 Go over to American Thinking as search "A Further Inquiry into Obamas Origins."

It's an article that goes into the possible skeletons in Obamas closet. Among the theories:

1. Frank Marshall Davis is the father, not Barack Sr.
2. Father is Stanley Dunham, mother is misc. black woman
3.Ann Dunham and misc. black man

All very interesting arguments, in all above scenarios he would be a legal citizen.

110 My theory is that his father was that Frank Marshall Davis (I think that's his name) who was a communist and an American.

Obama didn't want to claim an old black communist guy so he invented the father from Kenya.

Marple, he was "Barack Obama II" since anybody knew him.  If anybody invented it, it would be his mom, but even then, B.O. I accepted that he had a son and even visited young Barack once in his life.

So if it was invented, his Mom did it and if FMD was the father, then it must have been a pretty elaborate scam and I see no reason why she would put it on the birth certificate.  If she's going to name him after B.O. I, then she'll put his name on the certificate.

111 It will be interesting to see if any of the official channels notice it.

And I would add to the case against birfers:  The man was inaugurated as President.

He is the President.

The Constitution provides only one legal means for removing a President against his will.

Impeachment.  It is not likely that any house of Representatives in the next 6 years will impeach him and less of a chance that any Senate would convict him.

But supposing that did happen.  Now what?

112 2. Father is Stanley Dunham, mother is misc. black woman
Posted by: shibumi at April 04, 2010 11:23 PM (OKZrE)

Ok, that's a new one I hadn't heard.

Why would Obama's mother be listed as his father?

113 @ Diogenes
"...having a Father who is not an American citizen is a deal killer for qualifying."

So, then Washington, Jefferson, and... oh, hell... I am too lazy to look up the list of Presidents who did not have natural-born, American citizen fathers, but it's a lot of them... are illegitimate?

114
I 'vehemently don't want to discuss it'? How many times have I gone through all these fights? 8,9, 10 times? And yet in your mind that equals not wanting to discuss it.

You seem to confuse an unwillingness to to accept your crackpot theories as an unwillingness to discuss it. They are not the same things.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:10 PM (9B5OK)

What YOU do, I don't regard as discussing. Notice this comment: "unwillingness to to accept your crackpot theories"

I have repeatedly asked all three of you to discuss this issue with me through emails, and I never get a response. I don't even know if Ace is forwarding my messages to you.

What's really amazing to me, is the fact that all three of you guys will pop off about shit, and you don't even know as much as me.

If you will remember, *I'M* the Guy that had to school you about the Articles of Confederation, and several other things you didn't know.

I REPEATEDLY prove that States will ROUTINELY lie about the contents of a birth certificate, yet this point somehow just doesn't sink in.

You want to discuss this without bullshit? Fine. I'm ready to go.

115 111, Removing him is not the issue. Being satisfied that he may legally run again in 2012 is the issue. I am not satisfied. He is hiding something and it isn't something trivial. In fact he is hiding a lot of things. Some folks just want to put there hands on their ears and yell lalalalalalala.

116 Wanna know why AIDS is a heterosexual disease in Africa? Dry fucking. It's common knowledge over there that any woman who gets wet is a slut and a whore, so the only virtuous vagina is a dry vagina. Perverse, no? They even use herbs and other substances to ensure an arid vag. Thus the tearing and bleeding and disease transmission. And nobody talks about it. We just push cash and condoms on them.

117 Apparently someone filed a Freedom of Information Act FOIA request with the State Dept. Asking to see Obama's  Passport application. According to this fellow, the State Dept. responded that they did not have such a document on file.
Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 11:12 PM (eVJ7T)

For someone who's obsessed with this stuff, you sure don't know much. That was Christopher Strunk (in esse, like a true nutbrick, he copyrighted himself, fired Obama and regularly orbits the moon) who filed the FOIA request.

The State Department responded that due to the privacy provisions of FOIA (look 'em up), they could not release info on a living person. End of story, unless you want to visit scribD and find the crazy lawsuits of Christopher Strunk, in esse -- he sues everyone, all the time. His lawsuits are even crazier than the lawsuits of the other birther nutbrick, Orly Taitz, and that's an accomplishment right there.

By the way -- this is just how the Dems want to paint the tea partiers; as a bunch of ill-informed conspiracy theorist nutjobs.

118 All very interesting arguments, in all above scenarios he would be a legal citizen.

Posted by: shibumi at April 04, 2010 11:23 PM (OKZrE)

Maybe. I've read docs that require the mother meet criteria regarding residency that might call this into question. It's another tangential issue that really doesn't matter. 

119 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 11:28 PM (eVJ7T)

You know what's funny? Ace, Gabe and I don't actually have the same view of this issue and yet you throw us together as if we did.

I've never gotten anything from or about you via email. And no, it wouldn't have mattered because I'm not going to get into this via email. It's annoying enough every couple of month in the comments.

As for this supposed schooling on the Articles of Confederation, I don't recall it. I'm sure you have a link or can do a Google search for it.

Funny thing is how we've gone from me not be willing to discuss the issue to some 'schooling' you administered.

I'm sorry, which is it again?

I REPEATEDLY prove that States will ROUTINELY lie about the contents of a birth certificate, yet this point somehow just doesn't sink in.

No, you've repeatedly stated that and IIRC said it happened with you but that's not proving anything.

But I do thank you for confirming my claim that you simply argue by assertion.

120 So, then Washington, Jefferson, and... oh, hell... I am too lazy to look up the list of Presidents who did not have natural-born, American citizen fathers, but it's a lot of them... are illegitimate?

Posted by: Damiano at April 04, 2010 11:27 PM (xMH7p)

Oy.  For the billionth time, they grandfathered themselves (and all others who were plain American citizens, however they got it, like Hamilton who was a naturalized American, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution) so that there would be people eligible to be President from the start.

121 Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:26 PM (9B5OK)

Jack Cashill at American Thinker posited it as a hypothesis and had some rather compelling, if circumstantial,  evidence to support it.

By "Stanley" he was referring to B.O.'s grandfather. 

122 check out this pic    http://tiny.cc/7tk4d

Of O and "Grandfather"

123 I am too lazy to look up the list of Presidents who did not have natural-born, American citizen fathers, but it's a lot of them... are illegitimate?

There was a clause in the Constitution that allowed for someone to become president who was not natural born before 1787 or thereabouts. I'll try to find the exact wording.

124 Why would Obama's mother be listed as his father?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:26 PM (9B5OK)

Not trying to be difficult, but the GRANDFATHER's name is Stanly Dunham. The Daughters name is Stanley Ann Dunham.

It's another theory. Jack Cashill, (who wrote the article) mentions that it's an unlikely, albeit not yet disproven theory.

125 I want to see what Barry is hiding. His BC is not the biggest factor for me, his history as an adult is much more important to me.

126
So, then Washington, Jefferson, and... oh, hell... I am too lazy to look up the list of Presidents who did not have natural-born, American citizen fathers, but it's a lot of them... are illegitimate?

Posted by: Damiano at April 04, 2010 11:27 PM (xMH7p)

You're kidding Right? The "Natural Born Citizen" clause specifically exempts them. Look it up.

127 But supposing that did happen.  Now what?

Posted by: Larry Sheldon at April 04, 2010 11:25 PM (OmeRL)

The next two in line would definitely fulfill the Constitutional requirement, but ummm... that's not even a mildly amusing thought exercise.

128 Posted by: aquaviva at April 04, 2010 11:36 PM (KhUhp)

Wait, the theory is his grandfather shacked up with some black chick and gave the kid to his daughter to raise as her own?

Really? Wow, that's, um, original.

129 If Barry is re-elected, he may release his personal records and give us the finger without consequence.

130 I just want to see all of his school records and I want to know what passport he used visit Pakistan.

131 Sounds like Chinatown, sorta. So it's not that original.

132 Posted by: Damiano at April 04, 2010 11:27 PM (xMH7p)

I can't believe you really don't know this.  Here it is:

Art II, Sec 1

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

133 Obama sucks

134

@116

Damn!

135 Posted by: Damiano at April 04, 2010 11:27 PM (xMH7p)

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

136 Dammit, I type slow.

137 By the way -- this is just how the Dems want to paint the tea partiers; as a bunch of ill-informed conspiracy theorist nutjobs.

Posted by: JBean at April 04, 2010 11:31 PM (6N6FF)

Well hello little miss sunshine, and a happy fuck you to you too!

I don't recall who the person was that claimed to have filed the FOIA request, but I did point out that I didn't know whether he was trustworthy or not. 

Next you are going to tell me that the Document purported to be Obama's Selective Service application is likewise prohibited from being shown due to "privacy provisions of FOIA".

Apart from that, it is just another side issue.

138 Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:40 PM (9B5OK)

Hey Drew, I don't post here much and don't want to get in a fight...I always enjoy your posts.  I was just filling in some info in response to your "never heard that one before".  Personally, I don't know what to believe about this whole thing. I find it strange that it's even an issue or that there seem to be huge gaps in his bio which is odd for a POTUS.

139 That's my two cents, I don't carw where he was born he just sucks

140 Dammit, I type slow.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 04, 2010 11:45 PM (gofDd)

It's the thought that counts

141 Just once I'd like to see an anti-birther (or "birfer", as you childish dipsticks seem to prefer) argument made by someone who was confident enough in his position that he didn't have to append "nutbrick", "crazy", "conspiracy-minded whackjob", or whatever other discrediting appellation he can come up with to those who so much as ask a question about things that are right in front of us.

'Cause in two years, I've yet to see such an argument.

I'm not satisfied with "because shut up" as an explanation for why Obama has sealed every significant record about his own history, either. And I'm even less satisfied with McCain conservatives who would rather burn down Republicans than blow Obama's background wide open.

Y'know, I WOULD kind of like to know who the fuck my president is before we re-elect him.

142 112 2. Father is Stanley Dunham, mother is misc. black woman
Posted by: shibumi at April 04, 2010 11:23 PM (OKZrE)

Ok, that's a new one I hadn't heard.

Why would Obama's mother be listed as his father?

All very circumstantial.

Gist of it is that BO very much resembles his grandfather Stanley, who liked to hang out with wife swapping black commies. BO Sr. would get an American wife, Stanley would get the son he always wanted, would also explain why Stanley was always fond of the black man who knocked up then abandoned his daughter. Only problem- all circumstantial, nothing in it for Stanley Ann.

143

The birther issue always comes up to distract from the real damage the O is doing. Don't fall for it. Plus the liberal media just Alinsky ridicule the issue to death.

Let that one go. Can't anyone find his college transcripts, examples of any of his writings, or his medical records. Haven't all other Presidents and Presidential candidates released those?  If O was a Republican Woodward and Bernstein would have had those. Course that article from the Kenyan paper that referred to him as Kenyan when he was running for senate would have been front and center too.

 

144 I find it strange that it's even an issue or that there seem to be huge gaps in his bio which is odd for a POTUS.

Posted by: aquaviva at April 04, 2010 11:46 PM (KhUhp)

Not just that, but gaps in a bio for a Precedent whose only claim to fame was two (auto)biographies - though likely not written by the Indonesian Imbecile. 

It would be funny if it weren't so sad, stupid, and destructive. 

Then again, saying the guy's actual middle name was "smearing" him, which is new one ...

145 Not trying to be difficult, but the GRANDFATHER's name is Stanly Dunham. The Daughters name is Stanley Ann Dunham.
Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 11:37 PM (eVJ7T)

Not to be difficult but you appear to be wrong.

Even the crazy shit at American Thinker spells them the same way.

146 Why would Obama's mother be listed as his father?

O's GRANDFATHER is Stanley
His MOTHER is Stanley Ann.

Yes, his father wanted a son so bad he named his DAUGHTER Stanley.

Is that messed up or what?

147 DrewM writes:
I've never gotten anything from or about you via email. And no, it wouldn't have mattered because I'm not going to get into this via email. It's annoying enough every couple of month in the comments.


This pretty much tells me that it is a waste of time to attempt discussing this with you. You simply regard this subject as a nuisance.



DrewM writes:
I REPEATEDLY prove that States will ROUTINELY lie about the contents of a birth certificate, yet this point somehow just doesn't sink in.

No, you've repeatedly stated that and IIRC said it happened with you but that's not proving anything.

But I do thank you for confirming my claim that you simply argue by assertion.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:35 PM (9B5OK) 

It just looks like an assertion to you, because you haven't seen the evidence. Give me an address to send the two copies of MY birth certificate. 

Put up or shut up.

148
 No idea what's going on here, but I"m at the pub watching the Sox run down the hated Yankees and it's good.

149 As long as the indonesian imbecile came from stanley ann dunham's loins, he's a us citizen irrespective of the geographic location of the birth, or the citizenship of the father.

150 Folks, there are plenty of reasons 0bama is unfit to be president without even considering the circumstances of his birth!

151 Posted by: aquaviva at April 04, 2010 11:46 PM (KhUhp)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky to or about you. I thought you were just trying to explain something I asked about.

I'm honestly blown away that the guy at The American Thinker is selling that shit. Even in a 'just asking questions' kind of way.

152

Let that one go. Can't anyone find his college transcripts, examples of any of his writings, or his medical records. Haven't all other Presidents and Presidential candidates released those?  If O was a Republican Woodward and Bernstein would have had those. Course that article from the Kenyan paper that referred to him as Kenyan when he was running for senate would have been front and center too.

 

Posted by: kansas at April 04, 2010 11:49 PM (8i4ik)

--Agreed.

153 For all of these theories there is only one piece of evidence: Barack Obama steadfastly refuses to release this seemingly innocuous piece of information about himself. 

The fault here is with the media.  If journalists are what they say they are, then they would be hounding Obama for this lack of transparency.  If he were a Republican...

But with respect to McCain, the media and lefty commenters loved to talk about McCain's supposed non "natural-born" status and it was a major issue...until people started asking about Obama's.  Then the COLB showed up on Kos if you remember and only was acknowledged by the Obama campaign and posted on their website a few days later.

For me, it shows that the media has no interest in what they claim.  It also shows the complete contempt that Obama has for his constituents.

154 Not to be difficult but you appear to be wrong.

This is from the site you posted:

"Activist, social scientist. Born Stanley Ann Dunham on November 29, 1942, in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, to parents Madelyn and Stanley Dunham. Madelyn was the first female vice president of a local bank, and Stanley was an army veteran and furniture salesman.

Stanley Ann Dunham was named after her father who had always wanted a son. In spite of being teased about her name, Stanley Ann was a resilient and liberal minded daughter. During her formative years, she and her parents relocated between Kansas, California, Texas, and Washington. After high school, Stanley Dunham moved the family to Honolulu despite his daughter's early acceptance to the University of Chicago. After enrolling in the University of Hawaii, Stanley Ann began going simply by "Ann." "

Color me confused Drew.

155 149, I think it may depending on her age, marriage status, and time spent overseas.

156 155 149,

I think it may depending on her age, marriage status, and time spent overseas.

We have a winner!

/not that it's going to do any good, we're stuck with Teh Won. At least we have to end of the world in 2012 to look forward to.

157

Sarah Palin claims to be an Alaskan, but she was actually born in Idaho. And I think she married an Eskimo, too.

So she's not eligible to run for President, but I'll tell ya something... Godluver, she smells real good up close.

158 It just looks like an assertion to you, because you haven't seen the evidence. Give me an address to send the two copies of MY birth certificate.
Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 11:51 PM (eVJ7T)

No because even if I accept whatever it is you are claiming, it's irrelevant.

Even if someone lied on your birth certificate, it doesn't tell me anything about Obama's (unless you are Obama and I'm guessing you aren't).

I'll concede it's possible that in the hundreds of millions of birth certificates issued in this country there's been some chicanery here and there. That tells me nothing about the specific case of Obama.

159 "As long as the indonesian imbecile came from stanley ann dunham's loins, he's a us citizen irrespective of the geographic location of the birth, or the citizenship of the father." Which is precisely why I can't figure out the smokescreen... and there is one helluva smokescreen up on this one.

160 Not to be difficult but you appear to be wrong.

Even the crazy shit at American Thinker spells them the same way.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:50 PM (9B5OK)

You caught me in a spelling error. You didn't catch me in a factual error. 

Yes, I spelled it wrong, but my point was that the Father and the Daughter have the same name. (except for the Ann part.) Your message made it appear as if you weren't aware of this.

161 Posted by: shibumi at April 04, 2010 11:54 PM (OKZrE)

I'm not following. What are you confused about?

162 "he proved it the only way current Hawaii law allows."

That part is BS. He did not prove it the only way Hawaii law allows, in fact he did it at the very lowest denominator and least convincing way in which Hawaii law allows. Hawaii law does not prevent him from signing a waiver form and allowing an impartial person from having access to and photocopying the long form document, which would be the way Hawaii law allows proof to be made in a transparent, verifiable and therefore credible manner. I do not doubt he is a natural born citizen, that does not how ever mean that I and the rest of America do not deserve the proof in a transparent, verifiable and credible manner.

My push is for states to no longer allow candidate names to be placed on the ballot until the election officials of the state have the transparent, verifiable and credible evidence that shows Birth records, school records (at least the status of student as applying) and any passport/travel records that ensure that person remained a citizen and did not claim another country as their sovereign.

163 RE: American Thinker guys off the wall ideas- until Obama comes clean and provides definitive proof, well, he's open to that sort of speculation.  In fact, he's encouraging it, probably to distract from his other shortcomings.

However, I think that as thinking people, we can discuss his birth certificate issues, while hammering him on the economy, cap and tax, death care and so on as well.

164 Sheesh... I know about the exemption. My point was to demonstrate precedent.

The birther argument is a loser, even if (notice the if) there is some substance to Obama's lack of complete documentation on any lauded "qualifications".

See my above TLDR post. It infuriates me that this idiot has a laundry list of tangible, proven and legitimate reasons that he should never have been in the running for President. There's a part of me that would love for all this shit to hit the fan once and for all and blow up to grand effect. I would gleefully sit and watch the whole system break down and implode, since that's more or less where we're headed anyhow. Given the choice of trying to exist in an increasingly communist country or watching the whole crumble, I will take the latter. At least then we can start rebuilding more quickly.

165 Diogenes,

It's common knowledge that birth certificates may be altered administratively and by court order, that this is routine, and that the computer print-out would only show the latest data.

Surely everyone who has read this blog already knows that.

That fact that one could be born in one geographic location with a given name; be adopted into another location and given another name; make additional legal name changes; and have only the most current information on the BC would not surprise anybody.

But the possibility that our President would have even one change to his BC - impossible!

166 149 As long as the indonesian imbecile came from stanley ann dunham's loins, he's a us citizen irrespective of the geographic location of the birth, or the citizenship of the father.

Posted by: Uncle Jed at April 04, 2010 11:52 PM (eKgqT)

Not necessarily, but no one is arguing against him being a CITIZEN. We are arguing against him being a "Natural Born Citizen." as it is specifically referred to in the Constitution.

It is astonishing to me how many people out there who are completely unaware of the difference.

167 Posted by: Diogenes at April 04, 2010 11:57 PM (eVJ7T)

I didn't catch you in spelling error, at least not intentionally. I thought you were making a substantive point that their names weren't the same.

God knows I make enough typos not call anyone out on theirs.

So what exactly was your point in 124 then if not that their names are different?

168 That tells me nothing about the specific case of Obama. Posted by: DrewM. What would?

169 I'm not following. What are you confused about?

Did you mean that O's Mom's name is NOT Stanley Ann and his grandfather is not Stanley? That's what I took from your post.

Of course it is late and I'm all yanked up on candy.

170 who the fuck cares where he came from now - all we need to do is make sure as hell he gets his sorry ass back to Chicago in 2012 - LET'S MAKE IT HAPPEN!

171 Yes, I spelled it wrong, but my point was that the Father and the Daughter have the same name. (except for the Ann part.) Your message made it appear as if you weren't aware of this.

I was aware of it. It's just my mind didn't jump to an idiotic idea that the grandfather was the father.

I didn't think people were dumb and or crazy enough to seriously make that argument.

My bad.

172 I didn't think people were dumb and or crazy enough to seriously make that argument.

My bad.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:03 AM (9B5OK)

it's the internet, you thought wrong

173 Posted by: eman at April 05, 2010 12:01 AM (3fzoU)

I don't have any questions about Obama legal right to serve so it's a moot point in my case.

174 Diogenes,

Do you know when non-resident aliens children began to be granted citizenship under the 14th?

Are you familiar with the history of the 19th and citizenship of spouses and their children?

175
I'm honestly blown away that the guy at The American Thinker is selling that shit. Even in a 'just asking questions' kind of way.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:53 PM (9B5OK) 

Is the idea that someone might disagree with you so horrifying?

Jack Cashill is the fellow who did that extremely detailed analysis of Obama's book, and amassed a great deal of literary evidence, (and some concrete evidence)  that Obama didn't write the book.

If you've read his analysis, you must know the guy's extremely smart, and does meticulous research. 

How about that George Will column? (Which is one of the things I emailed to Ace, and asked him to forward it on to you and Gabe.)

Do you regard George Will as an idiot or a crackpot?

176 Posted by: shibumi at April 05, 2010 12:02 AM (OKZrE)

Yeah, let's let that one go.

I thought Diogenes was claiming their names were different but it was just a typo in the post. Everything after that makes no sense because we were all in agreement to begin with (about their names).

177 173, What to you is enough evidence?

178

Do you regard George Will as an idiot or a crackpot?

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:05 AM (eVJ7T)

you're really asking that about the dude who wrote an article claiming that jeans are evil?

179 Do you regard George Will as an idiot or a crackpot?
Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:05 AM (eVJ7T)

George Will thinks Obama's grandfather might be his father?

180 Drew, re #128: Blow that theory off if you wish,but it fits the known facts of the case better than most. Ole Stanley was desperate for a son (he named his daughter Stanley). He was known to hang out with strippers and whores. B O's mother went back to school in Wash state 5 weeks after B O's birth. They never could get the "which Hospital" thing straight. Obama Sr. never gave the time of day to B O or his mother after the birth. The best evidence is the EARS,as referenced earlier in this thread, Ole Stanley was another Jug - Eared Fuck. FWIW

181 But I will say I would still like to see the Khalidi tape the LA Times was/is hiding. Fucker thinks he can control everything about his past.

182 The best evidence is the EARS,as referenced earlier in this thread, Ole Stanley was another Jug - Eared Fuck.

Posted by: Financejoe at April 05, 2010 12:08 AM (dOjBN)

haha

183 Posted by: eman at April 05, 2010 12:06 AM (3fzoU)

As I've gone through several times, Obama has produced a document that is acceptable for producing US citizenship to get a US passport. That document states that he was born in Hawaii. Therefore, he's constitutionally eligible to serve.

184 I don't have any questions about Obama legal right to serve so it's a moot point in my case.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:04 AM (9B5OK)

It's not really a matter of whether you think he is eligible, or not, but whether you think it is reasonable to have that checked and verified by some official body - not his political party just vouching for him, which is what happened.  It should take all of ten minutes for the Indonesian Imbecile to clear up in court, adn come away with a victory.

But ... any eco-nut group has standing to sue on behalf of the spotted owl, or some abused colony of ants, but Americans have no standing to demand official verification of Constitutional eligibility of the POTUS.  Yep .. consistency.  It's what makes our system great, isn't it?  (And you know that ultra-lean notions of standing are supported by the courts in every left-leaning issue there is)

185 The best evidence is the EARS,as referenced earlier in this thread, Ole Stanley was another Jug - Eared Fuck.
Posted by: Financejoe at April 05, 2010 12:08 AM (dOjBN)

BREAKING (MUST CREDIT ACE of SPADES HQ)... Sometimes grandsons look like their grandfathers!

186 I think I am too tired to be having this discussion, since I've apparently prompted a rash of posting Art II, Sec 1. Apologies for inadvertently misstating my understanding of the argument.

My intent was to facetiously dispute Diogenes argument that whether or not someone's father was a natural-born citizen had any bearing on the citizenship of his child; i.e., if my father were to have legally immigrated to the US, became a naturalized citizen, and I was subsequently born in the US, could I run for President? I think we all agree that the answer is 'yes'. 

Again, apologies for any confusion resulting from my misstatements, exhaustion and/ or other factors contributing to my clear inability to hold a coherent discussion at the moment. Perhaps some scotch is in order. Then I may argue more intelligently.

187 B O's mother went back to school in Wash state 5 weeks after B O's birth.

As I understand it, she only took correspondence courses at first, but she was on campus before B.O. turned one.  This is my recollection.  You have to search out this information.

Obama Sr. never gave the time of day to B O or his mother after the birth.

He visited once.  There's a picture of him with young Barack.

188 That takes the pressure off me for awhile!

189 Obama has produced a document that is acceptable for producing US citizenship to get a US passport. That document states that he was born in Hawaii. Therefore, he's constitutionally eligible to serve.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:11 AM (9B5OK)

By "produced a document" you mean, having it show up at 1am on Kos and then physically examined for 27 minutes by exactly two people?  Is that "produced a document" by your standards - even setting aside the issue that that document is not sufficient and not the correct one to be examined?

190 DrewM writes:

No because even if I accept whatever it is you are claiming, it's irrelevant.

You are getting lost in the thread. You asserted that I haven't proven that states will lie about Birth Certificates. It is relevant to THAT point!

And now you say you don't even want to see the evidence. What does it cost you to LOOK at two pieces of paper? Afraid to be proven WRONG?

Man up. When I'm proven wrong, I admit it. It is a seldom occurring thing, but it does happen once in a while.



Even if someone lied on your birth certificate, it doesn't tell me anything about Obama's (unless you are Obama and I'm guessing you aren't).

You aren't comprehending. The STATE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS LIED
on my birth certificate. They did it on purpose.

*I'M* Adopted! My birth certificate is MOSTLY lies. It does contain some truth, like where I was born, but the rest is fabrication.

I'll concede it's possible that in the hundreds of millions of birth certificates issued in this country there's been some chicanery here and there. That tells me nothing about the specific case of Obama.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:57 PM (9B5OK)

No. No. No. No.   It is done ROUTINELY, and by every state in the Nation. It's not a mistake. It's not chcanery. It's legal, normal and proper, but it's still LYING. 

191 Let that one go. Can't anyone find his college transcripts, examples of any of his writings, or his medical records. Haven't all other Presidents and Presidential candidates released those?

And when the media Alinsky-ridicules THOSE issues to death, are we just going to let them go too?

192 It's not really a matter of whether you think he is eligible, or not, but whether you think it is reasonable to have that checked and verified by some official body - not his political party just vouching for him, which is what happened.
Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:12 AM (N49h9)

You're right. If only there were some official body to elect the President. And then perhaps one to certify their results.

We could call one, I'm just spit-balling here...the Electoral College. And for the group that certifies the election, why don't we call it The Congress of the United States of America?

Wait! Those two groups are charged with just those things.

Now, show me in the Constitution this other body that Obama or any other President is supposed to show his papers to.

193 He visited once.  There's a picture of him with young Barack.

Posted by: AmishDude at April 05, 2010 12:13 AM (Vo2Ef)

Was Mom wearing high heels? That's it....just high heels?This can 'splain why B+rry is such a freak of nature.

194 My push is for states to no longer allow candidate names to be placed on the ballot until the election officials of the state have the transparent, verifiable and credible evidence that shows Birth records, school records (at least the status of student as applying) and any passport/travel records that ensure that person remained a citizen and did not claim another country as their sovereign.

Posted by: astonerii at April 04, 2010 11:59 PM (NVf8C)

Amen Bro! But until you can convince people of the NEED to do this, you won't get the support NECESSARY to do this.

195 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:14 AM (N49h9)

No, he made it available at his campaign office for anyone who wanted to go see it.

You do know there's no body that's charged with collecting these things, right?

I guess he could have mailed it to CJ Roberts. Then what? The Supreme Court isn't empowered to certify anyone's eligibility to be President.

196 My intent was to facetiously dispute Diogenes argument that whether or not someone's father was a natural-born citizen had any bearing on the citizenship of his child; i.e., if my father were to have legally immigrated to the US, became a naturalized citizen, and I was subsequently born in the US, could I run for President? I think we all agree that the answer is 'yes'. 

Posted by: Damiano at April 05, 2010 12:13 AM (xMH7p)

Diogenes did not make that case.  He made the case that the father had to be a "citizen" of the US.  And the answer is, thus, "Yes" for a specific reason, because of the oath of citizenship that your father would have taken upon naturalization, which I printed the start of above:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;"

That was the issue with Chester Arthur's birth.  His father hadn't been naturalized at his birth, even though Chester was born in America.

197 Now, show me in the Constitution this other body that Obama or any other President is supposed to show his papers to.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:16 AM (9B5OK)

DrewM...He's supposed to show his papers to US. Get it?

BTW...What's the difference between B+rry and his dog Bo?

Bo's got papers.

That's not funny...it's true.

198

193 Let that one go. Can't anyone find his college transcripts, examples of any of his writings, or his medical records. Haven't all other Presidents and Presidential candidates released those?

And when the media Alinsky-ridicules THOSE issues to death, are we just going to let them go too?

I would think they could be reverse Alinskied by our candidates. Here are my college transcripts, here are my medical records, where are yours.  Course we would need a candidate with some balls. I mean how unserious can someone be not to even hold their competitor to the public financing they promised. If a Republican would have broken that promise, they would have been defeated on that issue alone.

199 Now, show me in the Constitution this other body that Obama or any other President is supposed to show his papers to.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:16 AM (9B5OK)

Please tell me how "there's no official body the President is supposed to show his papers to" explains away the fact that this one had his sealed so that nobody can see them.

200 165 Diogenes,

It's common knowledge that birth certificates may be altered administratively and by court order, that this is routine, and that the computer print-out would only show the latest data.

Surely everyone who has read this blog already knows that.

Posted by: Druid at April 05, 2010 12:00 AM (Gct7d)

You would think that that would be the case. However, in my ongoing discussion with Ace, Gabe, DrewM (Who by the way guys, I really think you guys are great at what you do, and quite clever and astute. But for some reason, you guys appear to have made up your minds on this issue, and now mock and malign allies which don't agree with you.) I repeatedly get the impression that they are completely unaware of this characteristic of State documents.

I finally got Ace to sort of acknowledge the point, and it was like pulling teeth. It required months of time, and an enormous quantity of posts.

201 So what exactly was your point in 124 then if not that their names are different?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:01 AM (9B5OK)

Never mind. It is a trivial issue.

202 Now, show me in the Constitution this other body that Obama or any other President is supposed to show his papers to. Posted by: DrewM. The Constitution leaves a great many things unspecified. Congress and the States may require whatever form of proof they want. I think the real issue here is folks have different levels of proof where they are satisfied and they want to enforce those standards on others. If standards are going to enforced by Law they should be pretty badass standards and the candidate should not have much choice in the matter at all.

203
Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:15 AM (eVJ7T)

Your birth certificate says whatever it says about your case. How it was handled tells us nothing about how other cases are handled let alone how Obama's was.

I direct your attention to this.

204 I was aware of it. It's just my mind didn't jump to an idiotic idea that the grandfather was the father.

I didn't think people were dumb and or crazy enough to seriously make that argument.

My bad.
Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:03 AM (9B5OK)

It is just a theory, and Jack Cashill even admitted it was the least likely of the current theories.

205 Never mind. It is a trivial issue.  

*cough*

206 No, he made it available at his campaign office for anyone who wanted to go see it.

You're just making shit up, Drew.  And you're making it up for a bad reason, too, as the short form is not sufficient.

You do know there's no body that's charged with collecting these things, right?

You are, again, making shit up.  Many states have laws that say that the Sec State must verify the eligibility of people before having them placed on the state ballots.  That was the point of D'Onofrio's case, and the New Jersey Sec State said that the parties' words were the verification.

I guess he could have mailed it to CJ Roberts. Then what? The Supreme Court isn't empowered to certify anyone's eligibility to be President.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:19 AM (9B5OK)

If they get the case they can.  But, if no one is given standing and they dont grant cert, then I guess you're right ...  Great.  Builds confidence, doesn't it.  Strong system.  Yep ...  Robust.

207 I would think they could be reverse Alinskied by our candidates. Here are my college transcripts, here are my medical records, where are yours.  Course we would need a candidate with some balls.

Well, indeed we would. A candidate with balls, regardless of gender, would be nice to have for a change.

But why in the world would any Republican candidate go to the mat on these matters when he or she sees that the liberal media doesn't have to Alinsky the issue of Obama's serial obfuscation to death because we're doing it for them?

208 You do know there's no body that's charged with collecting these things, right?

Shouldn't there be one? There's never been a need for one before, but there's so much shadiness regarding this particular president, maybe there should be one.

Course we would need a candidate with some balls. I mean how unserious can someone be not to even hold their competitor to the public financing they promised. If a Republican would have broken that promise, they would have been defeated on that issue alone.

McCain had the chance and blew it. The problem is finding a viable candidate with balls.

209 DrewM...He's supposed to show his papers to US. Get it?
Posted by: torabora at April 05, 2010 12:19 AM (suDMh)

Did you ever see George W. Bush's "papers"? How about Bill Clinton (he was adopted you know)? George H. W. Bush's? Ronald Reagan's?

I think you get the idea.

If this is a requirement, how come it's never come up before?

210 BTW- What was the George Will thing?

Seriously, is he questioning Obama's legitimacy to serve?

211 If this is a requirement, how come it's never come up before?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:27 AM (9B5OK)

Because Billy Boy never fucked Her Highness like the way that Obama did?

212 If this is a requirement, how come it's never come up before? Posted by: DrewM Um, because doubts about Natural Born Citizenship were extremely remote.

213 Drew, a simple hypothetical:

If it were found out that The Precedent were really only 30 years old, would he be, as a point of fact, Constitutionally eligible to be Precedent?

Just wondering how crazy you're willing to get on this - though thinking that "natural born citizen" could include someone who had citizenship in 183 other countries is hard to beat.

214 Druid writes:

174 Diogenes,

Do you know when non-resident aliens children began to be granted citizenship under the 14th?

I've ran across that information, but I no longer recall. Obviously it had to be after 1868.


Are you familiar with the history of the 19th and citizenship of spouses and their children?


I believe so. That is the Amendment which led to women obtaining more legal rights, among them was the ability to transfer citizenship independent of their husbands. Prior to this time, Only the Father could bestow citizenship on his offspring. Is this what you are referring to?

215 I bet you Michelle Obama is proud of Barack's home country.

216 "If this is a requirement, how come it's never come up before?" I can't recall a candidate that made it past the primaries ever having this problem. It was, after all, a Democrat lawyer that filed the first suit against Obama. A Hillary supporter IIRC.

217

#198 - 'he made it available at his campaign office' = bullshit. he never did. you got a cite for that?

 

218 eh...wasn't Stanley Ann's father white?

And if he was in fact the father, wouldn't that make Barack all white instead of half white?

I can't see the logic of that argument.

219 179 Do you regard George Will as an idiot or a crackpot?
Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:05 AM (eVJ7T)

George Will thinks Obama's grandfather might be his father?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:07 AM (9B5OK)

No. It's regarding George Will's Article on the meaning of the 14th amendment. He points out that is was based on the Civil rights act of 1866, where the wording is far more clear.

You really ought to read that article.

220

Sarah Palin claims to be an Alaskan, but she was actually born in Idaho. And I think she married an Eskimo, too.

So she's not eligible to run for President, but I'll tell ya something... Godluver, she smells real good up close.

God Dammit morons, that may be the funniest thing ya'll have ever posted.

221 Course we would need a candidate with some balls. I mean how unserious can someone be not to even hold their competitor to the public financing they promised.

Not just the public financing part (that the Indonesian Imbecile totally broke his word on) but the fact that his campaign financing was ILLEGAL, as they intentionally turned off the AVS check on credit card donations to allow total anonymity .. and Mr. McCain-Feingold had not a word to say about that.  Truly pathetic.

222 Shouldn't there be one? There's never been a need for one before, but there's so much shadiness regarding this particular president, maybe there should be one.
Posted by: wherestherum at April 05, 2010 12:26 AM (gofDd)

Should be and is are different things.

I've always said I think there are people who were entitled to ask for the proof (electors, a member of Congress or anyone charged with preparing ballots). That's not the same as some roving warrant for citizens to sue to see it. Especially after he took office.

223 I'm of the opinion that POTUS and his crew are deliberately using the birther movement to their advantage (i.e. the other side is cRaZeEeE!!!!!1111!!) and I wish there had been a louder contingency asking for his school documents (Harvard Law Review and never published??) instead. 

Obama loves the birthers.

224 DrewM writes:

As I've gone through several times, Obama has produced a document that is acceptable for producing US citizenship to get a US passport. That document states that he was born in Hawaii. Therefore, he's constitutionally eligible to serve.

And as I keep trying to get people to understand, such a document is meaningless as proof of anything because it relies on the truthfulness of State Officials, who as I can demonstrate will INTENTIONALLY LIE regarding the contents of a birth certificate.

Let me state emphatically that the Document might be true. But it cannot be regarded as true until it has been demonstrated to be true by a document signed by a witness to the event to which it is attesting.

225 Um, because doubts about Natural Born Citizenship were extremely remote.
Posted by: eman at April 05, 2010 12:30 AM (3fzoU)

And most/many people think the 'doubts' about Obama are pretty remote. So what's the poll number have to be before this supposed requirement to show documentation kicks in?

226

#224- the theory is that stanley senior knocked up a black prostitute, not that he fucked his daughter. who has the same name.

 

227 Now, show me in the Constitution this other body that Obama or any other President is supposed to show his papers to.

Posted by: DrewM.

Geez, Drew.  What happens when Congress passes an un-Constitutional law, and the President signs it - what is supposed to happen, at least?  There is a suit (if it were an  law the eco-nuts hated, any person, or even any illegal, would be given standing) and the SCOTUS decides on the Constitutionality - the federal judiciary, more broadly.  THis is the same.  The branches fucked up and the Constitutionality of this must be determined by the federal judiciary.  Why is this so diffiult to understand?

228 As BO's poll ratings go down, look for more people to be interested in the unanswered questions as well as the vaulted documents that he has never released.  As long as there are unanswered questions, the debate should remain open, imo.

229 Did you ever see George W. Bush's "papers"? How about Bill Clinton (he was adopted you know)? George H. W. Bush's? Ronald Reagan's?

Did you ever hear serious and persistent allegations questioning what country any of the above might have been born in, let alone whether they were Constitutionally qualified for the Presidency? Did any of the above ever have issues with people who had been in the same places in which they themselves were supposed to have been for large chunks of their lives not even remembering them? Did any of the above spend millions of dollars in court battles to keep the most basic personal information about themselves from being made public knowledge? I sure don't remember any of that.

I think you get the idea.

I think I do, too, and it's a shame. If I wanted to read an argument that we all have to shut up about a legitimate issue because it might embarrass the GOP, I'd go over to RedState or some other conservative blog run by party hacks with delusions of grandeur.

230 I've always said I think there are people who were entitled to ask for the proof (electors, a member of Congress or anyone charged with preparing ballots).

I agree with that, but when the electors (massive voter fraud?) and Congress are colluding, how can you trust them to verify something truthfully? I'd prefer a non-partisan third party be in charge of verification. Ok, yeah, so the non-partisan part is a fantasy, but I'd give them more credit than Congress, esp a Democrat Congress bent on electing the first "real" black president. I'd be just as suspicious of a Repub in the same position with an R controlled Congress.

231 I usually do not mention anything about other blogs but I will say that on another blog by a person who use to have a bunch of conservatives on it - there were many many posts about the fundraising of Obama. It was proven that Obama made a real effort to make it very easy for people to donate outside the legal limits. But, I guess that is not important now - I hope this is given some real examination next election. It just really pisses me off that before the election people use to say how terrible it was what Axelrod and his "new affirmative candidate" (because that is Axelrod's expertise) were doing but after - yeah, not so much.

232 #159 Rawmuse: It may be just an ego/lawyer thing; not giving up anything i don't have to or, there is a notation as to religon/nationality which would be bad...

233 All these questions about Obama's legitimacy don't matter.  Whatever questions you raise and whatever evidence you find, the mainstream media won't publish it and the mainstream voters don't care.  It just looks bad and actually hurts the effort to get rid of him in 2012.

234
Now, show me in the Constitution this other body that Obama or any other President is supposed to show his papers to.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:16 AM (9B5OK)

The State Election board. That's the FIRST group responsible for verifying credentials, and that's who the candidates register through.

Needless to say, incompetent state officials don't know how to do their jobs, and don't know the difference between "Citizen" and "Natural Born Citizen." just like many of the commenters. 

All Obama did was sign a paper saying he was qualified. That's it. I have copies of two states Candidacy forms filled out by obama. 

235 It was proven that Obama made a real effort to make it very easy for people to donate outside the legal limits. But, I guess that is not important now - I hope this is given some real examination next election.


it's not unimportant, it's just extremely hard to prove who donated what. Hence why it doesn't get the press as there really is no story

236 230 I'm of the opinion that POTUS and his crew are deliberately using the birther movement to their advantage (i.e. the other side is cRaZeEeE!!!!!1111!!) and I wish there had been a louder contingency asking for his school documents (Harvard Law Review and never published??) instead.

If questions about his birth certificate are illegitimate and signs of Teh Crazee, then why are questions about his college transcripts any different?

They're both part of an overall issue: The man is a serial obfuscator. Why is one component of that obfuscation worthy of pursual and the other worthy only of laughing dismissal?

And I really don't care if Obama loves the birthers or not. Worrying about that is called letting your enemy set the playing field.

237 Did you ever see George W. Bush's "papers"? How about Bill Clinton (he was adopted you know)? George H. W. Bush's? Ronald Reagan's?

Did any of them admit to having held other nationalities? Did any of them grow up in a foreign country, registered at schools that, from what we know, only took those citizens? Did any of them have foreign fathers?

Your powers of analogy are pretty weak, at least on everything surrounding this issue.

I think you get the idea.

If this is a requirement, how come it's never come up before?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:27 AM (9B5OK)

Because no one ever thought someone who wasn't a natural born citizen would even think of running for the POTUS? Call it naivete, like when some laws described marriage without explicitly mentioning that it had to be between a man and a woman ... becaus everyone in the world just knew that.

It was an issue with Chester Arthur, but he hid all of his documentation ... too, and the truth wasn't found out until just recently, as people looked into this case.

And McCain had the Senate move on him (co-sponsored by you-know-who), so don't act as if a major official body has never started looking into this.

238 If I wanted to read an argument that we all have to shut up about a legitimate issue because it might embarrass the GOP, I'd go over to RedState or some other conservative blog run by party hacks with delusions of grandeur.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 12:39 AM (tSr6+)

Because you want to keep losing elections?

239 I've read the Will thing (presuming it's this one since no one bothered to provide a link) and it has nothing to do with Obama.

I get Will's argument but at no point is he denying that birth right citizenship is the current law of the land (and has been for a very long time). He's simply saying the basis of that ruling is wrong and should be changed.

Whether he's right or not is a topic for another day but at no point does he says it's not the actual law, just that he'd like it to be different.

More to the point, he's talking about immigrants. Obama's mother was a US citizen, this is not in dispute I gather. She was able to confer citizenship on her son as long as he was born on US soil.

You may think Obama was born in Kenya or elsewhere but you have ZERO EVIDENCE of it.

240 I'm honestly blown away that the guy at The American Thinker is selling that shit. Even in a 'just asking questions' kind of way.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 04, 2010 11:53 PM (9B5OK)

Yes DrewM, we certainly don't want people thinking in the Age of B+rry now, do we...

241 Sarah Palin claims to be an Alaskan, but she was actually born in Idaho. And I think she married an Eskimo, too.

Heh... Biden was a Senator from DE while trumpeting his 'street cred' of being from Scranton, PA- a place he hadn't seen since he was 10. He's not eligible to be Vice President.

242 I dropped the birther thing when I heard there was a vintage, Hawaiian newspaper birth announcement. 

What I DO find sketchy, however, is the lack of transcripts and medical records.  I also do not think that he in any way wrote "Dreams of My Father."  That was Bill Ayers; he got his MFA at Bennington, which tends to produce graduates with a  distinctive voice.  That book has the reek of Vermont patchouli all over it, not to mention the fact that if someone had the literary chops to write like that, he'd be doing it A LOT, rather than one or two poems about figs.

243 If people want to make hay about obama, they should go to the american thinker site and search the name percy sutton.

244 Why is this so difficult to understand?
Posted by: progressoverpeace

Your obsession with a matter already settle by the current electoral college.

245 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:38 AM (N49h9)

Except a law isn't an election. The constitution gives the Congress 100%, non-negotiable power to certify an election. It's not reviewable by the Courts (like the Executive power of the pardon).

If Congress signs off on it, it's done.

246 250 - lol - yep - those poems were something else - I wonder if they will put that crap in his library whenever that comes. freaky.

247 Obama wasn't born in Kenya.  He wasn't born in Hawaii.  He wasn't born at all.  He reproduced asexually like a scum or virus.

248 DrewM writes:

Your birth certificate says whatever it says about your case. How it was handled tells us nothing about how other cases are handled let alone how Obama's was.

What my case does is Impeach the credibility of state officials as witnesses to a documents veracity.

If I can demonstrate that the people doing the certifying will routinely lie on the contents of a birth certificate, it demonstrates that their testimony and their documents cannot be accepted at face value.

And I can so prove.

249 Because you want to keep losing elections?

Because I don't care to be led around by the people responsible for losing them.

250 Did you ever see George W. Bush's "papers"? How about Bill Clinton (he was adopted you know)? George H. W. Bush's? Ronald Reagan's?

I think you get the idea.

If this is a requirement, how come it's never come up before?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:27 AM (9B5OK)

No one ever had a reason to suspect any of these men WEREN'T natural born citizens. Obama's father being Kenyan, is a red flag.

251 Your obsession with a matter already settle by the current electoral college.

Posted by: Garbonzo the Garrulous at April 05, 2010 12:47 AM (o8Qz0)

There's a "current electoral college"? I'll be damned. What are its members' addresses so I can send them letters of protest?

252 There aren't many Indonesians voting in America.  There are, however, a lot of blacks who call themselves AFRICAN-Americans.
'Nuff said.

253 Alexander Hamilton was an important figure in American politics, helped found our own Constitution, yet was himself excluded from its highest office due to being born in the Caribbean to a Scot and a French lady. This is the only other circumstance that come to mind.

254 Because no one ever thought someone who wasn't a natural born citizen would even think of running for the POTUS? Call it naivete, like when some laws described marriage without explicitly mentioning that it had to be between a man and a woman ... becaus everyone in the world just knew that.
Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:44 AM (N49h9)

Ah, so only some Presidents have to prove their eligibility, not others. It's an absolute mandate unless everyone kind of says, "meh, don't sweat it because no one would ever try and pull a fast one"?

I must admit that I'm unfamiliar with that kind of constitutional flexibility.

255 That's not the same as some roving warrant for citizens to sue to see it. Especially after he took office.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:34 AM (9B5OK)

Please ... a "roving warrant" for him to present something to the court that should have already been presented to SOMEONE in order to even have him on a ballot to begin with.  You act as if this is some hardship, when he should have had to prove his eligibility ONCE and ONCE ONLY.  Your doctor has to hang his friggin' diploma and board certification on his wall for you to see.  Same with lawyers and many others.  But the Chief executive can hand in a handwritten note from a friend ...

And this issue is more acute BECAUSE he's in office.  Think about what you are saying, by pointing out that it's less important to have the law followed because someone is in power.  That is one weird view of governance, I've got to tell you.  But, since you won't understand what I'm saying, I'll give you a simple analogy, if I have a fake driver's license, I'm not really dangerous until I'm actually driving, and that is when the law is most important.

But, we all know why you have taken the opposite view on this ('don't bother checking his driver's license while he's already on the road', is what you are saying) because you are scared of riots.  That is an ochlocracy you are preaching for.

256
Because you want to keep losing elections?

Shit.

G.  F.  Y.  S.

257 Posted by: rawmuse at April 05, 2010 12:51 AM (OQ3LO)

No, Hamilton, like all the members of the founding generation was grandfathered in. If they hadn't done that, then no one would have been eligible to be President until the Constitution had been in effect for 35 years.

258 233, This is only a legit issue if the polls favor it?

259 I AM Birthacus!

260 @266, of course, thanks, Drew, for pointing that out.

261 Posted by: rawmuse at April 05, 2010 12:51 AM (OQ3LO)

Article II, Section I, Clause IV of the US Constitution...

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

262 If questions about his birth certificate are illegitimate and signs of Teh Crazee, then why are questions about his college transcripts any different?

They're both part of an overall issue: The man is a serial obfuscator. Why is one component of that obfuscation worthy of pursual and the other worthy only of laughing dismissal?

And I really don't care if Obama loves the birthers or not. Worrying about that is called letting your enemy set the playing field.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 12:43 AM (tSr6+)

Independents - the ones I know anyway - cringe from any mention of birtherism, and yes I care about that.  Because I want them to vote my way.  I'd rather attack the lies about his supposed professional qualifications (since the whole voting present thing didn't work) that turn out to be outright lies...I had a lib say to me the other day "there are political reasons for voting present as opposed to yes or no."  It would be harder to justify the fact that no, he wasn't a professor, he was just a guest lecturer, and he deliberately lied about it (and many other things).

And even if it were proven that Obama wasn't born here, it would not matter.  There would be arguments ad nauseum that we couldn't weather the shitstorm that would come from unseating the POTUS.  The MSM would be pushing for a constitutional amendment to allow foreigners hold even the highest office in the land.  Why not, they'd say, we let them hold governorships - and after all, are we not a global community?  I can hear it now...

263 Ah, so only some Presidents have to prove their eligibility, not others. It's an absolute mandate unless everyone kind of says, "meh, don't sweat it because no one would ever try and pull a fast one"?

Haven't past president's proved their eligibility? I imagine there isn't any fanfare over it because all of them handed over whatever documents were necessary to prove eligibility to all boards that certify the ballot without protest.

Or are people allowed to just put their names on the ballot willy-nilly for president?

264

There's a "current electoral college"? I'll be damned. What are its members' addresses so I can send them letters of protest?

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States

Certificate of Ascertainment
Allen Weinstein
Archivist of the United States
National Archives and Records Administration
c/o Office of the Federal Register (NF)
8601 Adelphi Road
College Park, MD 20740-6001

Any other questions?

265 it's not unimportant [the anonymous donations], it's just extremely hard to prove who donated what. Hence why it doesn't get the press as there really is no story

Posted by: fartbubble at April 05, 2010 12:43 AM (gAmQ1)

Are you kidding?  The proof was easy and done by hundreds of people.  We had threads at Hotair where people were donating a dollar or two under every joke name in the book.   The web site had the AVS turned off (which was not the default) so that names and addresses were never checked and meant that you could donate with a gift card.  I believe Pam Geller broke this wide open with her donation in the name of John Galt.  The proof was a joke, as we all saw how it worked, first hand.  People were donating in the name of Saddam Hussein, Stalin, Mickey Mouse, ...  It was insane.  But the lame streams ignored it and McCain never had a word to say about it, the worthless jitbag.

266 Drew, Obama's birth circumstances fall into a gray area. Why do you support only a cursory investigation?

267
More to the point, he's talking about immigrants. Obama's mother was a US citizen, this is not in dispute I gather. She was able to confer citizenship on her son as long as he was born on US soil.

You may think Obama was born in Kenya or elsewhere but you have ZERO EVIDENCE of it.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:44 AM (9B5OK)

No, I don't think Obama was born in Kenya, though the Kenyan's certainly think so.

My main point has always been, that while we have ZERO EVIDENCE that Obama was born in Kenya, we have untrustworthy evidence that he was born in Hawaii.

The computer printout says whatever the state officials want it to say. There is no proof that it is the truth. I'm not saying they ARE lying, i'm saying that you cannot rely on their computer printout documents or their word as being the truth.

268 All sarcasm aside, the point being that there is no end to this argument. Lets assume, for a moment, that the long form pops up and shows he was born in Hawaii. Next, the argument will be that there is a history of hospital administratorÂ’s routinely lying around that time and therefore x is needed. Or y. Or z.  At some point, the argument just ends.

That isn't the crux of the argument in the first place. What is, is that nothing is likely to pop up because the documents have been sealed and the President is going to great lengths to keep them sealed. There can be no reasonable explanation for why he'd be doing that, other than that there is something in them he doesn't want the public to see. And given that the kind of information that would be contained in a long-form birth certificate may or may not prove him ineligible for the office he holds, especially in light of the facts of his life that we do know, I'd say that's a pretty big fucking deal.

And yet many conservatives don't seem to have a problem with this. Why not? Other than not wanting to be thought of as nutcases after having ceded the playing field to the opposition?

What the Left REALLY loves is that we're just too damned concerned about what people think of us to put up a fight. They don't have that problem. And so they do fight. And so they win.

269 The Constitution itself is well on its way to being an inconvenient anachronism, at least according to the Dems, who are demolishing it daily.

270 Please ... a "roving warrant" for him to present something to the court that should have already been presented to SOMEONE in order to even have him on a ballot to begin with.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:51 AM (N49h9)

"to the court"? Why "the court"? Where is the "the court" mentioned in the Constitution about presidential elections?

Look, it maybe a swell idea that Congress demand to see some ID but the fact is, it's up to them to certify the election and they can go about it or not however they see fit.

You may not like that but it doesn't change the facts.

Have you even read Judge Carter's ruling (pdf)?

271 G.  F.  Y.  S.

Posted by: Dang Straights at April 05, 2010 12:52 AM (WIWkv) 

I stand corrected, what a great argument.  Let's keep digging into Andrew Sullivan territory.

272 The MSM would be pushing for a constitutional amendment to allow foreigners hold even the highest office in the land.  Why not, they'd say, we let them hold governorships - and after all, are we not a global community?  I can hear it now...

If anyone recalls they did that when Arnold was first elected governor. The MSM loved the idea and started pushing the meme of a constitutional amendment for naturalized citizens. Didn't get far, though. And now they hate Arnold.

273 250 I dropped the birther thing when I heard there was a vintage, Hawaiian newspaper birth announcement.

That is indeed a hard one to get around.

My dad thinks there's a detail on the long form that he doesn't want known.  I'd be more inclined to believe that than the 'not born in Hawaii' meme.

274 #262: yes, you have a child born in a foreign country to foreign born parents. American case law follows the citizenship of the mother.

275 If anyone recalls they did that when Arnold was first elected governor. The MSM loved the idea and started pushing the meme of a constitutional amendment for naturalized citizens. Didn't get far, though. And now they hate Arnold.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 05, 2010 01:00 AM (gofDd)

Now imagine that they still loved him.  Imagine he was as liberal as his wife's kin.

276 Independents - the ones I know anyway - cringe from any mention of birtherism, and yes I care about that.

Of course -- why wouldn't they? Independents bend with the wind, and we let the Left set the narrative on this one, and have abetted them by telling our own side to shut up about it.

Why don't we let the Left set the narrative on a few more issues, too; like, oh, say the permanence of socialized health care, so we can shy away from fighting back for fear of what independents might think of us in the next election?

'Cause that's been working out REAL well for us lately.

277

 

  Mallamutt, It can be easily demonstrated that State officials will lie about birth certificates on purpose. Unless there is some other circumstance where it is a requirement of their job to lie, they can be trusted on other documents.

The issue should only come up if for some reason lying might be suspected. (as it is in the case of Obama's birth certificate.)

An alternate example might be in the witness protection program, where state officials are ordered by a judge to produce false documents for someone.  

278 Any other questions?

Yes, actually. Which way do you think this Current Electoral College of yours is going to go in the 2010 presidential election?

279 Wait until Gabe finds out Obama's real last name is Arpaio.

280 Drew, Obama's birth circumstances fall into a gray area.
Why do you support only a cursory investigation?
Posted by: eman at April 05, 2010 12:58 AM (3fzoU)

A couple of things...

-It falls into a gray area for you and others but not most people.

- I don't see the need for any further investigations

- I don't buy into conspiracy theories (you individually may not buy some of the loonier crap but it's impossible not to get tared with it.

-As a matter of law, I think some of the theories are simply wrong (one parent is sufficient to be 'natural born'. Being adopted as a minor does not lead to you losing your citizenship, etc)

-On a practical level...it's bad politics.

Since I think something is wrong as a mater of fact, law and politics, I see no reason to humor others by 'investigating' or 'asking questions'.

281
I stand corrected, what a great argument.  Let's keep digging into Andrew Sullivan territory.

Are you kidding me?  Go back to DU.

282 Now imagine that they still loved him.  Imagine he was as liberal as his wife's kin.

Don't have to imagine it because he already is, sadly. And yet the media still hates him.

I shudder to think of him as president.

283 Of course -- why wouldn't they? Independents bend with the wind, and we let the Left set the narrative on this one, and have abetted them by telling our own side to shut up about it.

Why don't we let the Left set the narrative on a few more issues, too; like, oh, say the permanence of socialized health care, so we can shy away from fighting back for fear of what independents might think of us in the next election?

'Cause that's been working out REAL well for us lately.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 01:03 AM (tSr6+)

I disagree that we let the left set the narrative - the birthers, as I'm sure you know, started on Hillary's team and there was a lot of narrative about the issue that was neither pro or con (except from the rabid lefty base, which at the time was too busy fighting about the primaries to give it much noise).  What happened was that as things started to already deterioriate for McCain, the anti-birther narrative suddenly got a helluva lot louder and overpowered any honest speculation that was already out there.  That's how I remember it, anyway.

284 Too bad the woman at the battery factory in NC where Obama visited last Friday didn't ask him why he has made such a great effort to vault his records instead of the high tax question that he gave a 17 minute-2,500 word response that didn't answer her question.

I'd love to see Obama get a question like this from an American worker during one of his stops to talk to "regular" folk.

285 Ah, so only some Presidents have to prove their eligibility, not others.

Are you really serious? Do you listen to yourself with this drivel? Go ahead and just call me a 'racist', already.

Those who have foreign fathers and have admitted to dual citizenship and are reasonably suspected of having even more citizenships need to show everything. I would prefer that everyone sshow everything, but I carding a 21 year old and carding a 90 year old are really not quite the same. You don't seem able to grasp this.

But, why don't you just support the same level of official scrutiny that McShame got? Would that be good enough for you? It's not good enough for me, but I'm stil trying to assess the limits of insanity on this. You have certainly exceeded my expectations, thus far. I'm still waiting on the answer to whether, if it were found that a sitting President were actually 30 years old (just as a hypothetical, so keep your "racism" cries at bay for now) would he, as a matter of fact, be eligible to be President or not - as a point of fact. This should be pretty easy for you.

It's an absolute mandate unless everyone kind of says, "meh, don't sweat it because no one would ever try and pull a fast one"?

Huh? I just explained why there was no mechanism before - because the issue had really never come up - outside of your buddy bringing it up in the Senate for McShame. Maybe you can play dumb about this some more ...

I must admit that I'm unfamiliar with that kind of constitutional flexibility.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:51 AM (9B5OK)

Yup ... all those other Presidents with foreign fathers and dual citizenship ... no difference. Don't you even have any curiosity about how the guy in the Oval Office is acting unlike any one before - tearing our system apart? Maybe you think it's just bad luck, or coincidence, and not the fact that he has not an iota of American sensibilities about him, and holds us and our system in contempt? You are given a perfect example of why "natural born citizen" was put in and you still argue some idiotic nonsense about 'why weren't all the others asked the same questions'? They should all have to present all the documentation necessary, but people like you don't care to bother looking at it, anyway, so what are you bitching about?

286 Don't have to imagine it because he already is, sadly. And yet the media still hates him.

I shudder to think of him as president.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 05, 2010 01:09 AM (gofDd)

Eh, I don't think Arnold is quite up to Teddy or Patrick Kennedy levels yet.  Not that it would take long for him to get there, but...

Maybe I should have said, imagine him with a D after his name instead of an R, because apparently that's all it takes for them.

287 283 250 I dropped the birther thing when I heard there was a vintage, Hawaiian newspaper birth announcement.

That is indeed a hard one to get around.

My dad thinks there's a detail on the long form that he doesn't want known.  I'd be more inclined to believe that than the 'not born in Hawaii' meme.

Posted by: tdpwells at April 05, 2010 01:00 AM (Ei3oZ)

I initially dropped the Birth certificate thing when I saw that. (it's in two newspapers by the way. I have copies of both papers.)

Later, more information came out that revived the issue in my mind, like Hawaii having a really LAX verification process. It is unquestionable that SOMEONE put those notices in the papers. At first it was claimed that the State Officials provided a list which was automatically published, but when it was noticed that the Nordyke twins (who's REAL birth certificates are available online.) were born at virtually the same time as Obama, and THEIR names are not in the paper, the theory that the State was responsible for putting those names in the paper went right out the window.

Most people think it was Madelyn Dunham, the Grandmother.

288 And this issue is more acute BECAUSE he's in office.  Think about what you are saying, by pointing out that it's less important to have the law followed because someone is in power.

And this was basically the Democrats' argument for not impeaching Clinton. Who cared what kind of malfeasance he might have committed while in office? We'd had an election, suckers.

The Left has long believed that the Constitution of the United States is less important than last fall's election results, and that simply winning elections gives them a mandate to do literally anything they want. Why conservatives would want to start helping them make that argument for themselves is truly beyond me.

289 Wow, she is insane. She should be nuked from orbit.

290 That isn't the crux of the argument in the first place. What is, is that nothing is likely to pop up because the documents have been sealed and the President is going to great lengths to keep them sealed. There can be no reasonable explanation for why he'd be doing that, other than that there is something in them he doesn't want the public to see.
Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 12:59 AM (tSr6+)

In what way are they sealed? My understanding is Hawaii always restricted access to vital records to the person concerned or designated representatives. I know in some states they are open to anyone but not every state. It seems Hawaii was just following the law.

These "great lengths to keep them sealed", what would they be? I know people always say he's spent millions! to hide this but never provide any proof of that.

As for why, my guess would be if you set the precedent that every time someone wanted to know something you'd get your ass dragged to court, you'd find yourself having your ass dragged to court a lot. More to the point, if I were him, my thought would be 'fuck you, I released what I was given when I asked for it and that wasn't enough so screw you". That sort of attitude strikes me as keeping with his character.

BTW- I wouldn't be shocked if there were something embarrassing on it, like race of a different or missing father.

291 Save your recruitment of "independents" for about 5 minutes before the polls open. All indications are that's when most of them finally make up their minds on who they're voting for. I'm betting it often comes down to a family coin toss. Nothing like true conviction, eh?

292 Maybe I should have said, imagine him with a D after his name instead of an R, because apparently that's all it takes for them.

After the last idiotic statement he made (either about higher taxes or green energy, I forgot which) I yelled at the radio, "Why don't you just change parties already!?" Then he'd stop damaging the Rs so much.

But if the media loved him and started pushing for a naturalized citizenship clause for presidential eligibility...I don't know if that would be a good thing to allow.

293 Drew, if you were presented with the opportunity to examine Obama's original long form birth certificate, would you want to examine it?

294 Are you kidding me?  Go back to DU.

Posted by: Dang Straights at April 05, 2010 01:08 AM (WIWkv)

Fine, now I'm a troll for siding with 2 of the cobloggers here.  Keep saying that Barack's grandfather is actually his father, and that the first black is not a legitimate president, then in January 2012 you can watch Barack get sworn in for term 2.

295
I think DrewM hit the nail on the head. He, Ace, and Gabe, Allahpundit, etc. all regard the issue as bad politics, and as a result they regard anyone discussing it as an enemy, or an ally lending support to the enemy. That is probably why they are so vehemently  against promoting this issue.

They may be right that it is bad politics, but this is beside the point regarding getting to the bottom of the issue. I personally think it may very well be great politics, but whether or not this issue benefits my side or not is beside the point. We all should in all intellectual honesty want to know what the truth is, and let the chips fall where they may.

296 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 01:12 AM (N49h9)

Those who have foreign fathers and have admitted to dual citizenship and are reasonably suspected of having even more citizenships need to show everything.

Ah, I must have missed that caveat in the Constitution. Please point me to that caveat in the text.

I'm still waiting on the answer to whether, if it were found that a sitting President were actually 30 years old (just as a hypothetical, so keep your "racism" cries at bay for now) would he, as a matter of fact, be eligible to be President or not - as a point of fact.

That's actually an interesting academic question. I'd imagine he'd have to be impeached.

Don't you even have any curiosity about how the guy in the Oval Office is acting unlike any one before - tearing our system apart?

He's a raving leftist. I don't think that has much to do about where he was born. I believe Bill Ayers was born and raised in Illinois. I think he'd be governing much the same.

Maybe you think it's just bad luck, or coincidence, and not the fact that he has not an iota of American sensibilities about him, and holds us and our system in contempt? You are given a perfect example of why "natural born citizen" was put in and you still argue some idiotic nonsense about 'why weren't all the others asked the same questions'? They should all have to present all the documentation necessary, but people like you don't care to bother looking at it, anyway, so what are you bitching about?

I think John Bolton was right when he called Obama "the first post-American President". I don't think where he was born had anything to do with it however. I think his mother's attitudes, his education and his personal choices have everything to do with it.

297 Are you familiar with the history of the 19th and citizenship of spouses and their children?


I believe so. That is the Amendment which led to women obtaining more legal rights, among them was the ability to transfer citizenship independent of their husbands. Prior to this time, Only the Father could bestow citizenship on his offspring. Is this what you are referring to?

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:30 AM


Not only that - before then there was not much effort to document women's citizenship because they didn't have to prove it (to vote) - women were presummed to have the citizenship of their husband. There used to be forms, as late as WWII, for natural born citizens (in the most stringent meaning) to regain their citizenship after divorce.

Then there is the question of when anyone born in the US, to parents 'just passing through', began to be granted citizenship.

Most who are certain BO meets the 'natural born citizen' requirement hang their hats on the 14th (even though the 14th does not distinguish between persons born or naturalized in the United States) and disregard 100 years of citizenship history - advocates of the 'living document' philosophy.

You won't get far with them.

298 And here I thought Independents voted for best looking or tallest.

299 Alexander Hamilton was not disqualified from the Presidency by the circumstance of his birth, or by the Constitution.  He was disqualified by Aaron Burr.  My seconds, sir, shall call upon your seconds.

300 Drew, if you were presented with the opportunity to examine Obama's original long form birth certificate, would you want to examine it?
Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 01:18 AM (aag4W)

Free trip to Hawaii? Oh hell yeah. But it will have to wait until November or December. No point wasting it now that the weather is getting good.

301
DrewM writes:

In what way are they sealed? My understanding is Hawaii always restricted access to vital records to the person concerned or designated representatives. I know in some states they are open to anyone but not every state. It seems Hawaii was just following the law.

Among the other things that Ace did not pass along to you was links to references to Hawaiian law that COMPEL them to provide copies of the long form birth certificate to any election board official who requests to see them. 

That wouldn't have any impact on this discussion, would it?

302 Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:19 AM (eVJ7T)

You really are a dishonest little piece of work, you know that?

I laid out three reasons why I don't buy this crap and you only mention one. It happens to be the most craven one and the one I mentioned last.

That's about the only time I've even brought up politics in this context and you jump on it to the exclusion of the rest.

Fuck you.

303 290, So, people who want to pursue this matter more than you would are not necessarily crazy, they just don't see it the same way you do?

304 What is, is that nothing is likely to pop up because the documents have been sealed and the President is going to great lengths to keep them sealed. There can be no reasonable explanation for why he'd be doing that, other than that there is something in them he doesn't want the public to see.
Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 12:59 AM (tSr6+)

Okay I'm being somewhat facetious here, but...to fuck with us?  If everything is laid bare, and it's all by the book, then that's a huge chunk of ammo that they no longer have to use against the unhinged republicans.

You and I are not totally in disagreement here.  I absolutely think there's some shady shit being hidden, and I'm not at all opposed to an investigation, but I wish they would take it underground until something concrete can be presented, because as of right now, the left absolutely is using it against us, Obama plays the birthers like a freakin Stradivarius, and they don't seem to care. 

We do not have time to waste.  We cannot afford to lose another election.  I do not think we will survive it as a nation.  And after that, it's not going to matter what comes out.

305 These "great lengths to keep them sealed", what would they be? I know people always say he's spent millions! to hide this but never provide any proof of that.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:14 AM (9B5OK)

You don't remember the totally weird fact that, when he went to see his dying, racist old grandmother, he didn't spend much time with her but swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away?  DO you really not remember this?

And his fights in the court cases is most certainly, "great lengths".  Funny that a guy who wrote two auto-biographies (though evidently just authorized biographies filled with fake stories and bullshit) would be holding onto some of these documents so tightly?  That would be like a reality star saying that he didn't like being on camera.

I mean ... my G-d, man.

306

You understand the inconsistency here, donÂ’t you? Or do you explain it away because, damn it, you donÂ’t care about Illinois DriverÂ’s license but you know the truth is out there.

 Posted by: Mallamutt at April 05, 2010 01:15 AM (V9SYy)

If you are in fact correct regarding your assertion about Illinois Driver's license, then this fits the Category of having a reason to believe they are lying. Should the issue get to court, you can demonstrate that the State Officials are guilty of malfeasance. 

What's your point? You are only further establishing MY point that their word cannot be accepted at face value.

307 Fuck you.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:24 AM (9B5OK)

I've been waiting for you to stop punching down and finally break that out

308 I think post #314 was a sonar ping. Left full rudder.

309
So, people who want to pursue this matter more than you would are not necessarily crazy, they just don't see it the same way you do?
Posted by: eman at April 05, 2010 01:25 AM (3fzoU)

I don't think it's a one size fits all.

I think some are wrong on the facts or understanding of the law. I think some are so mad about what Obama is doing they will use any hammer at hand and yes, I think some are bat shit crazy conspiracy nuts.

There are probably other sub categories but that strikes me as the main types I've come across in various venues.

310 He was disqualified by Aaron Burr.

Didn't a dead guy get elected in Alabama or somewhere because it was too late to take his name off the ballot?

311 You don't remember the totally weird fact that, when he went to see his dying, racist old grandmother, he didn't spend much time with her but swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away?  DO you really not remember this?
Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 01:25 AM (N49h9)

Pictures? News articles? Anything? Or am I just to take your word for that?

312 I disagree that we let the left set the narrative - the birthers, as I'm sure you know, started on Hillary's team and there was a lot of narrative about the issue that was neither pro or con (except from the rabid lefty base, which at the time was too busy fighting about the primaries to give it much noise).  What happened was that as things started to already deterioriate for McCain, the anti-birther narrative suddenly got a helluva lot louder and overpowered any honest speculation that was already out there.  That's how I remember it, anyway.

This is all true. But what also happened is that the Left proved, once again, that they are much better at coalescing into a united front than we are, so that once Obama was the nominee, the birther issue was suddenly ridiculed and dismissed by some of the very same people who had promoted it in the primaries.

I had a liberal friend who was a big Hillary supporter during the primaries. He not only admired Hillary, he DESPISED Obama. He couldn't believe Americans would seriously countenance making a bastard like this President any more than I could. His anger even lingered past the primaries, and he once even swore he'd vote McCain. Naturally, when Election Day finally did come around, he pulled the lever for Barry, exulted in his victory, and got even more obnoxious about him after the inauguration. Now he'll go to the mat to defend Obama and swears that he's a lock for a second term.

And all the while, none of the questions about Obama's past, that he himself had once been concerned about, have been answered. But he doesn't care. He Won, and at the end of the day that's all these fuckers give a shit about. We're so afraid of what independents might think of us that we run a guy like John McCain, while the Left is so cynically fearless they'll do complete 180s right in front of their eyes and then tell us we didn't see what we saw. What do independents respect more -- the boldness of tyrants, or the quavering moderation of a party that approaches every issue from an attitude of weakness?

313 You could sue (and someone already has) but whose court will hear the suit? A judge already tossed the case out.

314 Everyone knows that the Antichrist's mother is a jackal and therefore he cannot be a naturalized citizen.

315 322, Fair enough. I think some folks want to dismiss this matter because they think it taints them somehow.

316 Fuck you.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:24 AM (9B5OK)

Kinda sums up the anti-birther argument.

317 I personally think it may very well be great politics, but whether or not this issue benefits my side or not is beside the point. We all should in all intellectual honesty want to know what the truth is, and let the chips fall where they may.
Posted by: Diogenes

What's stopping you from running for office with Obama's BC as your platform?

318 DrewM writes:

You really are a dishonest little piece of work, you know that?

I laid out three reasons why I don't buy this crap and you only mention one. It happens to be the most craven one and the one I mentioned last.

That's about the only time I've even brought up politics in this context and you jump on it to the exclusion of the rest.

Fuck you.

My posts are already long enough as it is. I picked the one that made the most sense to me. (I had an aha! moment if you will) and for that, I get an accusation of dishonesty, and a "Fuck you" ?

319 312 Drew, if you were presented with the opportunity to examine Obama's original long form birth certificate, would you want to examine it?
Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 01:18 AM (aag4W)

Free trip to Hawaii? Oh hell yeah. But it will have to wait until November or December. No point wasting it now that the weather is getting good.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:22 AM (9B5OK)

Nice dodge.

320 DrewM. gives fact after fact and Diogenes, progressoverpeace et al. brings out fact after fact too. All shit-stained because they got them out of their asses.

321 But if the media loved him and started pushing for a naturalized citizenship clause for presidential eligibility...I don't know if that would be a good thing to allow.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 05, 2010 01:16 AM (gofDd)

Well of course it wouldn't be a good thing, but they'd do it anyway.  I don't think that the MSM has been presented with a person they want so badly as president that they can't have due to a technicality. 

I cannot imagine what the narrative had been if Obama openly stated back before that first speech at the Dem Convention where everyone was like 'who the fuck is this no-name guy' that he was a Kenyan who came here to do whatever...I guarantee you they'd be pushing for that change in the law as hard as they push the teabaggers are racists meme.  And what's sad is that I'll bet you upwards of 40% of democrats would be all for it.

322 They may be right that it is bad politics, but this is beside the point regarding getting to the bottom of the issue. I personally think it may very well be great politics, but whether or not this issue benefits my side or not is beside the point. We all should in all intellectual honesty want to know what the truth is, and let the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:19 AM (eVJ7T)

This is not an intellectual exercise.  Kind of a crucial moment in America right now.  History in the balance and everything.  It's time to think about winning and let the future historians dig through the records to sort this stupid shit out.

And keep talking up that part about the father's citizenship being much more important because conservatives don't need to worry about women's votes. 

323 >>>Ah, I must have missed that caveat in the Constitution. Please point me to that caveat in the text.

Sure.  "natural born citizen".

>>>>>>if it were found that a sitting President were actually 30 years old (just as a hypothetical, so keep your "racism" cries at bay for now) would he, as a matter of fact, be eligible to be President or not - as a point of fact.

>>>That's actually an interesting academic question. I'd imagine he'd have to be impeached.

Are you saying that the oath of office would have been valid?  Does the signature of a 7 year old make a contract valid?

>>>He's a raving leftist. I don't think that has much to do about where he was born. I believe Bill Ayers was born and raised in Illinois. I think he'd be governing much the same.

It has to do with who he is, and he is Indonesian.  Interestingly, he acts like he's Indonesian.  And he is not a raving leftist, so far as I can gather, but merely determined to exact revenge on the US and the West.  The guy is on a suicide mission.  I have said this from the beginning and many are starting to understand my position.  I've argued this enough times at this site.

>>>I think John Bolton was right when he called Obama "the first post-American President". I don't think where he was born had anything to do with it however. I think his mother's attitudes, his education and his personal choices have everything to do with it.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:21 AM (9B5OK)

Again, you are being disingenuous by honing in on the birth.  Anyone who would read our correspondence, here, would be puzzled at why you are doing this, when the bulk of my argument is about multiple citizenships.

The 'natural born citizen' requirement is not a guarantee to get an America-loving person, but it is a rule of thumb that the Founders liked, because having someone without American sensibilities in the position of Chief Executive (and Commander-in-Chief) is very dangerous for a nation as totally unique in its culture and governance as America was, and had remained until ... you know what happened - the thing you didn't think the Founders were trying to stop from happening.  You can make the same argument about the age requirement, but that, also, was a rule of thumb.

324 You forgot to post the part where Shelly says a juju curse is responsible for her big ass.

325 333, Are you speaking in tongues again?

326 Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 01:31 AM (tSr6+)

You're right, I haven't spent the last hour and a half dealing with the 'substance' of some of this crap.

I call out someone who cherry picks one small part of my argument out for being dishonest and you think it sums up my whole stance.

Too many birthers don't want to deal in facts or realty. You just want to be validated and if you have to argue dishonestly to do it, it's a small price for you I guess.

327 Posted by: tdpwells at April 05, 2010 01:33 AM (Ei3oZ)

Agreed. I'll bet it wouldn't look so different that it does now. Hide anything that makes him look bad and only present the good. We already know the MSM is colluding with the WH.

328
DrewM writes:

Pictures? News articles? Anything? Or am I just to take your word for that?

You want to verify THAT little tidbit, but you don't want to see my PROOF that state governments intentionally LIE about birth certificates?

329 Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 01:32 AM (aag4W)

330 Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 01:32 AM (aag4W)

I gave it all the seriousness it deserved.

(sorry about 342, hit the wrong key)

331

Are you speaking in tongues again?

Is that what he's doing? I thought he was just farting out of his mouth again.

332 I'm just glad everytime we have this discussion the matter is settled to everyone's satisfaction.

333 333 DrewM. gives fact after fact and Diogenes, progressoverpeace et al. brings out fact after fact too.

All shit-stained because they got them out of their asses.

Posted by: Christoph at April 05, 2010 01:33 AM (0fq7b)

Don't know where you're getting THAT idea. I've offered to send DrewM a copy of Both of my Birth certificates. He will neither concede the point, or look at my evidence.

334 My posts are already long enough as it is. I picked the one that made the most sense to me. (I had an aha! moment if you will) and for that, I get an accusation of dishonesty, and a "Fuck you" ?
Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:32 AM (eVJ7T)

Yes because it makes sense to you doesn't meant that's what it actually is. And in focusing on the bits that make sense to you, you made a fallacious accusation against me. You substituted your judgment of what you thought I meant for what I actually wrote.

That pretty much sums up conspiracy theories, picking out the bits that made sense to the theorist while supporting the narrative and ignoring the rest.

335 345, Indeed. Now let's discuss Red Sox pitching decisions in Game Six.

336 Man, I've gone through damn near a pack of smokes watching this carnival ride.

337 And all the while, none of the questions about Obama's past, that he himself had once been concerned about, have been answered. But he doesn't care. He Won, and at the end of the day that's all these fuckers give a shit about. We're so afraid of what independents might think of us that we run a guy like John McCain, while the Left is so cynically fearless they'll do complete 180s right in front of their eyes and then tell us we didn't see what we saw. What do independents respect more -- the boldness of tyrants, or the quavering moderation of a party that approaches every issue from an attitude of weakness?

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 01:30 AM (tSr6+)

People like your liberal friend there aren't going to change - they are a lost cause as far as I'm concerned.  Actually, I think 99% of democrats are a lost cause.  They wouldn't care what came out about him.  He could walk out there with hooves and a tail and they wouldn't give a shit.

I don't respect independents, either.  I think they're pussies.  There's no grey area on politics anymore - anyone who thinks there is has brain damage.  That being said, I am not above manipulating their pathetic asses to get what I want, and that's a Republican majority in congress.  We know they're wide open for manipulation based on their lack of concrete positions, anyway...why not use it?

I also think that if our primaries were run the same way the Dems are, McCain would not have been our nominee.  Why we allow the most liberal part of the country to decide a conservative nominee is beyond me.  By the time I get my say, it's long been decided.  I do'nt see a push by anyone to change that, either.  That would be a place to start.

338

And keep talking up that part about the father's citizenship being much more important because conservatives don't need to worry about women's votes. 

Posted by: fozzy at April 05, 2010 01:34 AM (ccEuN)

A am merely pointing out what appears to be the case. The fact that some group or other won't like a particular fact, does not make it untrue. Remember the 3/5ths of a person was also in the constitution, offensive or not.

339 In what way are they sealed? My understanding is Hawaii always restricted access to vital records to the person concerned or designated representatives. I know in some states they are open to anyone but not every state. It seems Hawaii was just following the law.

As I recall, Obama had his BC sealed a week before Election Day. Of course he was within his rights to do it, but who does that?


These "great lengths to keep them sealed", what would they be? I know people always say he's spent millions! to hide this but never provide any proof of that.

The fact that we have people like Orly Taitz, no matter how ridiculous you think they may be, waging legal battles to get to them is the proof. Now admittedly, I doubt Obama is having a very difficult time keeping them under wraps, given his resources and the fact he's going up against people like Taitz, but he's still obviously prepared to use whatever means are at his disposal to keep his sealed BC that way.


As for why, my guess would be if you set the precedent that every time someone wanted to know something you'd get your ass dragged to court, you'd find yourself having your ass dragged to court a lot. More to the point, if I were him, my thought would be 'fuck you, I released what I was given when I asked for it and that wasn't enough so screw you". That sort of attitude strikes me as keeping with his character.

Yes, but we're talking about the President of the United States. "I Won" may be good enough for him, but it isn't for me. As for precedents, the REAL precedent we're setting here is that the Natural-Born-Citizen requirement for the Presidency means absolutely nothing, because any attempt to verify that any future candidate meets it will be dismissed as crazy. Good thing we already know about Schwarzenegger and Soros, eh?


BTW- I wouldn't be shocked if there were something embarrassing on it, like race of a different or missing father.

Well, who can really say what's in it? Your guess is as good as mine. And that's kind of the whole problem, isn't it?

340 I gave it all the seriousness it deserved.

It is an honest, legitimate question. And you dodged it.

341 How about unexpectedly Kenyan?

342 All shit-stained because they got them out of their asses. Posted by: Christoph

As opposed to your drive-by droppings?

Oh, right I forgot. You're a neutral arbiter of ultimate cynicism. Sorry, man. Us mortals are like that.

343 333 DrewM. gives fact after fact and Diogenes, progressoverpeace et al. brings out fact after fact too.

All shit-stained because they got them out of their asses.

Posted by: Christoph at April 05, 2010 01:33 AM (0fq7b)

Jesus, you again? Don't you have your own failing shithole of a country to worry about?

344 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 01:34 AM (N49h9)

If Obama was born on US soil, he's 'a natural born citizen'. I know the theories about why some say that's not true. They simply fly in face of settled law on this point.

You can argue all night long about 3 sources/types of citizenship but the fact is the Supreme Court only recognizes 2, natural and naturalized.

I know this is a point we simply disagree on and I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm comfortable the facts and the law are on my side, as you are of the opposite.

345  I think DrewM hit the nail on the head. He, Ace, and Gabe, Allahpundit, etc. all regard the issue as bad politics, and as a result they regard anyone discussing it as an enemy, or an ally lending support to the enemy.

I can't speak for the others, but not only is it bad for the Republican Party, it's anti-constitutional and anti-democratic. So, even if it were good for the Republican Party, I'd still be opposed to it.

346 At least we can all agree Christoph is an ass.

347 Pictures? News articles? Anything? Or am I just to take your word for that?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:29 AM (9B5OK)

Do you really not remember the Hawaii visit right before the election, during which Lingle had announced that the documents were safe and would not be released to anyone?

348 Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 01:43 AM (aag4W)

Sure I would.

I'd see the pictures to the highest bidder and make a fortune from it.

349 At least we can all agree Christoph is an ass.

Won't even need an up-or-down vote.

350
Too many birthers don't want to deal in facts or realty. You just want to be validated and if you have to argue dishonestly to do it, it's a small price for you I guess.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:35 AM (9B5OK)

Drew, you are apparently wasting your time and mine. I would like to agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

As far as you're concerned, i'm a dishonest nut. As far as i'm concerned, you are just close minded to accepting ideas or facts which you do not like. 

You are ordinarily reasonable sounding in the articles you post, but you seem to have an emotional attachment regarding this issue.

351 Can't blame a drowning man for grabbing at straws...

352 Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:47 AM (9B5OK)

Thank you.

353 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 01:47 AM (N49h9)

I remember him going there for his grandmother.

But wait, you originally said,

You don't remember the totally weird fact that, when he went to see his dying, racist old grandmother, he didn't spend much time with her but swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away?

Now you are telling me it's just based on timing, which you haven't established.

What happened to not spending much time with the grandmother? How long did it take to meet the Gov (supposedly)? A phone call wouldn't do?

See how the story changes and still no actual proof.

354
That pretty much sums up conspiracy theories, picking out the bits that made sense to the theorist while supporting the narrative and ignoring the rest.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:40 AM (9B5OK)

That sums up human nature. I can only think with my mind, I can't think with yours. My writing is a characteristic of my thinking. So is yours. People see things the way they see them, but sometimes another's perspective allows them to see things differently.

355 The Left gets excited when conservatives push this issue because they believe it shows those with conservatives beliefs to be extreme, crazy, or whatever adjective you want to pursue. There are many valid and legitimate reasons Barack Obama should not have been elected and, once elected, should not be re-elected. This, however, isnÂ’t one of them. Its bad politics, its bad law and its bad logic.

Posted by: Mallamutt at April 05, 2010 01:44 AM (V9SYy)

I agree - there are several issues we need to be hammering right now...Obamacare, the economy and probable loss of our credit rating, unemployment, insane taxation, etc...the birth certificate simply isn't one of them.  Putting it on the front burner makes it look as though we can't beat them on policy issues, like we're grabbing at straws. 

I'm not saying that's the truth, I'm saying that's how it'll be presented by those against us who, quite frankly, still have a rather large bullhorn. 

356 Can we see Easy Bake's long form BC? If not, why not?

357 325 - I have to say that my family who were democrats forever did not toe the line and vote for Obama and we will never be democrats again. We saw through him and his whole group. We were Hillary supporters but our eyes were opened finally after the disgust we felt towards the tactics of the Obama supporters. I hope that in the next election many of us who were more democrats out of tradition will vote to keep America from becoming what we now fear is not a good thing.

358

I am merely pointing out what appears to be the case. The fact that some group or other won't like a particular fact, does not make it untrue. Remember the 3/5ths of a person was also in the constitution, offensive or not.

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:43 AM (eVJ7T)

Truth does not matter in politics.  Clinton committed perjury, a felony, in office and nobody cared.  You have to win.  History is full of peoples who were in the right and died.

359 Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:51 AM (eVJ7T)

Start with reading what is actually written and not cherry picking the parts that suit your narrative. It's not that hard.

360 Well, 2010 is going to be a helluva year, I think. We just got our asses handed to us with this HCR crap, which many think will be repealed, but I don't. Why not? Because repeal almost never happens, and the Constitution be damned. We've got this energy bill and immigration coming at us next. Not terribly optimistic on those either. Most of the damage is being done by agencies and czars and other non-elected-accountable-to-no-one busybodies. Shit, I'll take good news from any quarter at this point.

361

Truth does not matter in politics.  Clinton committed perjury, a felony, in office and nobody cared.  You have to win.  History is full of peoples who were in the right and died.

I still have arguments with a couple people I know about this. They simply deny the perjury and parrot the MSM meme that it was "all about sex".

This is the mentality we're dealing with. This is the mentality that results in Barry Obama in the Oval Office.

362 You can argue all night long about 3 sources/types of citizenship but the fact is the Supreme Court only recognizes 2, natural and naturalized.

I know this is a point we simply disagree on and I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm comfortable the facts and the law are on my side, as you are of the opposite.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:44 AM (9B5OK)

The Supreme Court has been wrong before. Dred Scott vs. Sanford comes to mind. I am a person that doesn't accept pronouncements "Ex Cathedra" just because someone says so. They may have the power to enforce their edicts, but that doesn't make them factually or logically correct.

Perhaps you can make peace with a factually or logically incorrect pronouncement, but I find such things irritating.  The world once proclaimed the geo-centric theory. The world (and all it's experts) were wrong.

363

Rush- on Grandma's dying

http://tinyurl.com/5kow2q

364

Truth does not matter in politics.  Clinton committed perjury, a felony, in office and nobody cared.  You have to win.  History is full of peoples who were in the right and died.

Posted by: fozzy at April 05, 2010 01:52 AM (ccEuN)

Touche.

365 it's anti-constitutional and anti-democratic.

It's anti-constitutional to challenge the president's constitutional eligibility? Or am I misinterpreting what you said?

366 I'm a registered independent because I refuse to align myself with a spineless Republican party.  With that being said, I still vote Republican most of the time because they are at least paying lip service to the things I believe in.  The Dems don't even bother.

367 Well, if out Tooncian economy continues dropping it's sickly little steaming turds into the fetid punchbowl of international finance, this will all become a moot point, eh?

368 375 - Rawmuse - so glad to see you posting and contributing as I always respected your views at other blogs. We can make it happen in this November and continue on to make it happen in 2012. We just all need to stick together and keep our eyes on what is really important and that is to kick Obama and his crew to the curb and take back our country. We have all gotten so tired of the racists talking points and pointing fingers at all the bitter clinger crap. It is time to get focused and do what we need to do and just come together. What happened in the last election is done - just let's focus and fight. Fight and give right back to them what they give to us. It is not a time for people to be politically correct - we need to just say what we feel and fuck the people who have a problem with it - it was the desire to be politically correct that got us into this mess we are in now. If McCain had said what he probably knew was right and not be a coward in the election we would be in a better place now. It was amazing to me that a man who faced so many hard times in his life just bent down to so many things. We need a person who is willing to take it to them in the next election. I don't know who that person is right now but dang we need someone strong. It will happen.

369 That pretty much sums up conspiracy theories, picking out the bits that made sense to the theorist while supporting the narrative and ignoring the rest.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:40 AM (9B5OK)

Uh ... Drew, do you actually know what the definition of conspiracy is, because the way you're using it, here, is just ridiculous.  This has nothing to do with the rest of your post - just this part, because I am tired of seeing the word "conspiracy" thrown around by you like a leftist tosses out "racist".  everything they don't like is "racist" and every theory you don't like is a "conspiracy". 

Guess what, there are bad theories that have nothing to do with conpsiracies.  Again, do not take this as any support of the rest of your post (as I disagreed with all of it) but just to try have you stop using "conspiracy" as your all-purpose "poopy-head" synonym.  In fact, if you switched to only saying "poopy-head" (or "poopy-headed")  at least your sentences would be semantically correct as expressions of your thoughts.

370

Mallamutt writes:

My long response is that just because a government official may have lied about a particular situation (whether it is someoneÂ’s  birth certificate or a driverÂ’s license) that behavior, in and of itself, does not negate the validity of another such document. Why you may be able to document that a state official lied about personÂ’s x birth certificate, that does not constitute proof that they lied about personÂ’s y birth certificate.

No, it doesn't. It establishes that their testimony is impeached.

Ask Gabe what that means.

371 Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:55 AM (eVJ7T)

I'm simply talking about the law as it is, not as I might like it to be or think it might some day be.

There's a difference.

372 360 At least we can all agree Christoph is an ass.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:47 AM (9B5OK)

Ahem, Christoph is a ass

373 381 I'm a registered independent because I refuse to align myself with a spineless Republican party.  With that being said, I still vote Republican most of the time because they are at least paying lip service to the things I believe in.  The Dems don't even bother.

Posted by: GGE, Hall of Fame Moron at April 05, 2010 02:00 AM (xRDxw)

I should have clarified - I don't care how a person is registered, I care how they vote.  Hell, I'm registered unaffiliated because I don't participate in primaries (presidential doesn't matter for me, I'm in Ohio and it's already decided by the time it reaches our state).  It's always been more conservative vs liberal than republican vs democrat for me anyway. 

The fact that you vote one way most of the time because you actually have a belief system tells me that you're not the type of independent that I was referring to.

374 How can we get a copy of the long-form of Easy Bake's BC?

375

Missouri. Mel Carnahan died in a plane wreck about 3 weeks before the election (he was running against John Ascroft). The Dems got together and decided that if ol Mel won, they would appoint his widow, Jean, to fill the seat. And yes, the whole last 3 weeks of the campaign was about keeping MelÂ’s memory alive by sending Jean to Washington. The St. Louis Post Dispatch practically had ol Jean getting sainted by the time the election was over. And, of course, Carnahan won.

Posted by: Mallamutt at April 05, 2010 01:52 AM (V9SYy)

Yes, and Ashcroft could certainly have challenged the legality of a dead man winning a Senate race if he wanted to... but instead he chose not to contest the race and quietly stepped down, and the Widow Carnahan was appointed to his seat.

And so what was one of the first things that bitch did in the Senate? Why, she voted against Ashcroft's confirmation as Attorney General.

There was no incumbent in the country I was gladder to see go down in '02 than Jean Carnahan. But the '00 MO Senate race and its aftermath is a classic example of how they know how to play for keeps and we don't.

376 Gabriel Malor writes:


I can't speak for the others, but not only is it bad for the Republican Party, it's anti-constitutional and anti-democratic. So, even if it were good for the Republican Party, I'd still be opposed to it.

That is your and others opinions, and you are all entitled to them. I believe you are wrong, and you obviously believe the same of me.

I find your arguments unpersuasive, and you likewise find my arguments unpersuasive. I have been laboring under the notion that you simply aren't comprehending my arguments. I think it is a cognitive disconnect of some sort.

From my side, it appears as though none of you make a fair attempt at addressing my points. As far as I can tell, your side regards my side as crackpot and irresponsible. That about sums it up as near as I can tell.

377 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:02 AM (N49h9)

Thanks for the advice but I'm pretty comfortable calling things like Obama's grandfather actually being his dad a consircacy theory since it would invovle a lot of people working to create a false narrative.

I'm also comfortable calling claims that records officials have committed felonies by producing false records on Obama's behalf (with no proof) as a conspiracy theories.

Speaking of which....

I am very interested in any documentation or evidence you might have to back up your claim that Obama "swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away".

How's that coming along?

378 390, They take no prisoners.

379 389 How can we get a copy of the long-form of Easy Bake's BC?

Posted by: eman at April 05, 2010 02:06 AM (3fzoU)

Spend $10000 on a lawyer, sue in federal court, wait for the DNC to outspend you by 10X, judge declares you have no standing to sue.  Game over.

380 There was a military guy on another blog, said that the papers that Obama presented would have been insufficient to enlist in any branch of the military. I had no reason to disbelieve him. In light of all of this discussion, is he wrong?

381 This is what is obvious:  all rules are out the window with Obama and those who sent him--especially the rules which are spelled out in the Constitution.

382 Posted by: Charles Dickens at April 05, 2010 02:02 AM (Mmw0q)

I didn't like you in high school and I don't like you now.

383 Now you are telling me it's just based on timing, which you haven't established.

What happened to not spending much time with the grandmother? How long did it take to meet the Gov (supposedly)? A phone call wouldn't do?

See how the story changes and still no actual proof.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:50 AM (9B5OK)

Go look it up yourself, Drew, if you don't remember how weird that whole trip was.  And, no, he spent almost no time with his dyng granny. And there was some weird stuff about the sasquatch and the typical racist granny, too.  I'm sure someone here must have blogged about it at some point, though maybe the fact that he was physically near his BC had some weird effect on you ...

384 394, They are sealed?

385 395 There was a military guy on another blog, said that the papers that Obama presented would have been insufficient to enlist in any branch of the military. I had no reason to disbelieve him. In light of all of this discussion, is he wrong?

Posted by: rawmuse at April 05, 2010 02:09 AM (OQ3LO)

No.

386 From my side, it appears as though none of you make a fair attempt at addressing my points. As far as I can tell, your side regards my side as crackpot and irresponsible. That about sums it up as near as I can tell.  Posted by: Diogenes

Avoiding the obvious retort, the important question still remains. Will you vote for a 2012 GOP candidate that will not address the BC issue at all?

387 397 Posted by: Charles Dickens at April 05, 2010 02:02 AM (Mmw0q)

I didn't like you in high school and I don't like you now.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 02:09 AM (9B5OK)

I lol'd. )

388 Go look it up yourself, Drew, if you don't remember how weird that whole trip was. 
Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:10 AM (N49h9)

No, you made a very specific claim..." he didn't spend much time with her but swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away?  DO you really not remember this?"

It's not my job to find proof for your assertions.

389 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:10 AM (N49h9)




I remember it too. Michelle and the girls didn't visit Great Grandma.

390 DrewM, I admire your tenacity.
I don't know if you are ever going to get that pig to sing, though.

391 I love how it always gets to this point.

People make claims and offer no evidence.

I simply say, 'got any proof of that?' and am told it's up to me to go find it.

Some how my unwillingness to go research every assertion thrown at me is actually proof of my closed mindedness.

And people wonder why I'm not convinced of their positions.

392 Here's another who remembers that quite clearly. It happened mere days before the election and was a big news story.

393 Go look it up yourself, Drew,
Posted by: progressoverpeace

Those that propose, must produce the rose.

394

Rush- on Grandma's dying

http://tinyurl.com/5kow2q

Posted by: Naan at April 05, 2010 01:56 AM (j5MTj)

Oct 22, 2008 ...and  here is the devastated and grief stricken Obama racing off to visit beloved Grandma. At this point, he is rushing off to Hawaii, but stops in California, where he takes a call from Ellen DeGenerate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPgcO9KWmfs

He is so devastated.  Poor Granny is dying.

The dancing begins around 4:32.

395 360 At least we can all agree Christoph is an ass.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:47 AM (9B5OK)

Amen.

396 Wasn't Grandma dying the source of the "she was a typical white person" comment?

397 Any chance of finding the travel records of Easy Bake's mother? Did she arrive in Hawaii pregnant or not? One ticket or two?

398 Couple of things for folks to consider:

1)  What hospital was Obama born in Hawaii?  Anyone?  Buehler?  Buehler?  They'll probably release a "real" long birth certificate once they can figure out how to list a hospital without any embarrassing answers cropping up.  A white woman giving birth to a black baby in the early '60s probably would be remembered. Doctors/nurses would  probably remember something unusual like that.  That would cause issues for Obama if the doctor/nurse on call that day and time said it didn't happen.
2)  Obama is an opportunist.  Let's say he was born in Hawaii, or even if he was born in Kenya, we go ahead and consider him natural born anyway due to his Mom for the sake of argument.  However, he could get a better school deal by claiming to be a citizen of a foreign country.  That would explain why all his school records are embargoed.  Kind of embarrassing if you're going to be President of the US and you list  being a citizen of a foreign country on your school application or other documents to get a better deal.

Even if it is proven that Obama was born in Kenya, I don't see it overturning the last election.  One of two things would happen, neither good for Obama.  1)  He becomes ineligible to run again in 2012.  2)  A huge backlash against him.  Americans don't like foreigners telling us what to do, so why vote for one to be President?

399 I remember it too. Michelle and the girls didn't visit Great Grandma.

Posted by: baldilocks at April 05, 2010 02:13 AM (XXHXQ)

Thanks, baldilocks.  I'm too tired to go through searching all this stuff, and Drew has become fixated on a trip that I assumed everyone had some recollection of the total weirdness of.  Do you, by chance, remember when he met with Lingle on that trip?  I think Lingle announced the sealing on Oct 28th.

As Diogenes pointed out, Drew demands proof of this (that he should remember, somewhat) but has no use for equivalent proof of The Precedent's eligibility.  Interesting.

400 I'm also comfortable calling claims that records officials have committed felonies by producing false records on Obama's behalf (with no proof) as a conspiracy theories.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 02:08 AM (9B5OK)

No one is alleging that state officials were committing a felony. That is a non sequitur. I am alleging that state records officials cannot be trusted to tell the truth about their records because the law allows, nay REQUIRES them to present false records in certain common circumstances.

Why are you intentionally mis-stating my argument?

I'm alleging their testimony (both written and verbal) is impeached. 

401 Wasn't Grandma dying the source of the "she was a typical white person" comment?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 05, 2010 02:22 AM (P33XN)

No. That was in the aftermath of the Great Race Speech, when he was explaining why he wouldn't disown Wright ... right before he disowned Wright.

402 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:27 AM (N49h9)

Check my post above...number 410.  At the end of the clip Ellen announces he's "off to Hawaii to visit his ailing grandma".

Make sure you check him out at 4:32 displaying his grief on this mission of compassion and mercy that he's undertaken.

403

I think "grandma was typical white person"  came up when defending the Rev. Write mess. 

Also Michelle and the kids didn't visit Grandma when they were vacationing in Hawaii in the summer, only Obama went and only for one afternoon.   They didn't go on the "grandma's dying" trip at all.

404 As ridiculous as it is to have to dredge up "proof" of something that everybody who was paying attention in the fall of 2008 heard about, here we have

Oct. 24: Obama in Hawaii to See Ailing Grandmother "Not Sure Whether She Makes It to Election Day". (And whaddaya know, she didn't. And Michelle and the kids must not have been too involved with ol' Grandma because they sure didn't make the trip.)

Oct. 28: Obama's Birth Certificate Sealed By Hawaii Governor.

(While I'm at it, anyone want proof that something big went down at the WTC in 2001? I'll see what I can do.)

405
Avoiding the obvious retort, the important question still remains. Will you vote for a 2012 GOP candidate that will not address the BC issue at all?

Posted by: Garbonzo the Garrulous at April 05, 2010 02:11 AM (o8Qz0)

Sure. Am I supposed to hate allies because they disagree?

406

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 05, 2010 02:22 AM (P33XN)

No. That was in the aftermath of the Great Race Speech, when he was explaining why he wouldn't disown Wright ... right before he disowned Wright.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:28 AM (N49h9)

Oops.  I think I'm wrong on this.  It's late.  Sorry.

407

No. That was in the aftermath of the Great Race Speech, when he was explaining why he wouldn't disown Wright ... right before he disowned Wright.

Thanks. I do remember the trip, though, because it happened days before the election.

This guy is just so weird. I can't imagine how a biographer is going to deal with this shit.

408 I live in Honolulu. I remember Obama's visit to his dying grandmother, his visit to the records department, and Gov. Lingles public statement that his Birth certificate was sealed in a vault. This is the only local news link I can find with at this time...

http://tiny.cc/uyjr3

"Fukino said that no state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, ever instructed that Obama's certificate be handled differently from any other."

IIRC, Lingle did not meet with Obama during this visit.

409 Posted by: aquaviva at April 05, 2010 02:29 AM (KhUhp)

Thanks, aquaviva.

410 progressoverpeace



Can't find that.

411 As Diogenes pointed out, Drew demands proof of this (that he should remember, somewhat) but has no use for equivalent proof of The Precedent's eligibility.  Interesting.
Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:27 AM (N49h9)

You just can't make that level of dishonesty up!

For proof of his eligibility I have offered:

-His COLB (you don't accept it but that's not the same as me not offering it).

-There's an point Supreme Court precedent that I linked to which says people are either naturalized or natural citizens, there's no third special case (again, you don't like it but I offered it).

-I linked to Judge Carter's opinion laying out what this is not a judiciable matter, which backs up my statement that the court's have no role in determining eligibility.

And there's the fact that he was elected by the Electoral College, confirmed by Congress as the Constitution requires and took the Oath of Office.

You're right, I've offered nothing!

But I'm a meanie because I asked you to back up a very specific accusation you made and you failed to.

412 Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 02:33 AM (aag4W)

Thanks, davidt.  I'm calling it a night, now.  Later, folks.

413 Guess my search-foo is weak.

414 The debate is over. The science is settled. Shut up.

415 Bye prp.  I'm out too.

416 FTR- I know he went to Hawaii. What I was unaware of was what happened while he was there.

According to progressoverpeace

#318-You don't remember the totally weird fact that, when he went to see his dying, racist old grandmother, he didn't spend much time with her but swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away?  DO you really not remember this?

No, I don't remember him having " swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away".

Apparently it was common knowledge, so you'd think there would be some evidence of it.

417 Sure. Am I supposed to hate allies because they disagree?
Posted by: Diogenes

How the fuck would I know? I asked because my mind-control machine is in the shop.

418 BOOM BITCHES!

419

Mallamutt writes:

But, thanks for dropping in a little air of moral superiority in the proceedings. Cause when your pushing a crack pot theory, that always brings more people to the cause.

You don't like smartassness, don't do it to me.

Again, the stateÂ’s verification on the short form establishes a presumption of truthfulness (maybe you should ask Gabe about what a presumption is). Either put up the evidence that the short form is factually inaccurate or admit you can not meet your burden of proof.

It may be possible to do exactly that. All I have to do is prove one falsehood on the document and you will concede that THAT document is impeached?

Well, cards on the table, I can't do it right now. Most of my references and links are on my other computer which is infected with malware at the moment. I will however mention what I recall along this line, and I will trust you to be fair in analyzing this point. 

I recall reading an article that claims to prove that Obama's birth certificate was amended. It likewise points out that Birth certificates which have been amended have a notation to that effect. Obama's released birth certificate does not contain this notation.

If it CAN be proven by referencing other documents (such as the divorce papers of stanley ann dunham) that the BC was amended, and the released version doesn't contain the proper notation, does THAT qualify as demonstrating there is something wrong with this specific document?

For what it's worth, it's very likely Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro, but as usually, the state will neither confirm or deny this.

Back to you.

420 I'd like to see Obama get some poetic justice.  He got previous opponents disqualified or forced out. That's how he got elected to his first political job and that's how he got to be Senator.  It would be ironic if the facts finally became clear and he got disqualified from running again.  It would be great to say "Karma's a bitch."  Unlike the truther conspiracy, this one is easily refutable, if it is, by producing a long form Birth Certificate that shows hospital and doctor.  He should at least be able to say what hospital he was born in.  I know what hospital I was born in (the hospital on Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ) and I would be willing to bet all of you do to.  A very simple question that should take less than 5 seconds to answer.  Why can't he answer that?

421 Okay, my last post .. for real.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 05, 2010 02:22 AM (P33XN)

I was mistaken in saying that I was mistaken.  He mentioned granny in the Great Race Speech, itself, on March 18:

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

and then elaborated on it with the "typical white person" comment a day or two later on the radio.

422 An honest man, proud of his accomplishments and strong enough to show his failures, would not seal his records.

423

I remember the Great Speech on Race.

Well, I remember that's what the media called it. As for the actual speech, it's like anything else Barry says...you can't remember a fucking thing he said a minute after he shuts his trap.

424
-There's an point Supreme Court precedent that I linked to which says people are either naturalized or natural citizens, there's no third special case (again, you don't like it but I offered it).

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 02:36 AM (9B5OK)

Attorney Mario Appuzo addresses all these court cases. I doubt you will bother to read his responses.

425 No, I don't remember him having " swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away".

Apparently it was common knowledge, so you'd think there would be some evidence of it.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 02:39 AM (9B5OK)

My G-d, Drew.  He goes to Hawaii.  Generally ignores Granny.  And Lingle comes out with a statement that no one will have access to his records - while he is still there.  Give me a fucking break.

Penny-wise/pound-foolish doesn't even begin to describe your annoying idiocy on this.  What do you think happened?  Just coincidence, there?

426

Obama did NOT "prove it the only way Hawaii law allows." That is just such an ignorant statement. Obama could of course obtain and release his long form birth certificate, containing such additional information as the name of the attending physician, whether the information on the birth certificate was ever amended, etcetera.

But the fundamental issue here is that we have a constitutional requirement with no enforcement mechanism. John McCain is quite clearly not a natural born citizen under the letter of the law and never should have been allowed on the ballot, but because there is no enforcement mechanism for a clear constitutional requirement, this illegitimate doofus was able to bollux up the Republicans and get Obama through the door.

Gabriel might think this is an impolitic issue, but he is wrong. Stating the obvious need for constitutional requirements to have enforcement mechanisms is perfectly politic.

The simple fact is, we don't know whether Obama was natural born because we have no mechanism in place for compelling evidence so that this issue can be properly judged. To be framing this in terms of "believing" or "not believing" is ludicrous. The evidence ought to be compelled. Very simple. Uncontroversial. Why do some people find this issue so hard?

There is a good chance that the most disastrous election in U.S. history was between two illegitimate candidates, so let's not hear anyone say that the natural born citizen requirement is not an important part of the Constitution. But that is in effect Gabriel's position. He can't figure out the politic way to address it, so he wants to ignore the fact that there is no enforcement mechanism, effectively vitiating the requirement.

427

Thanks, davidt.  I'm calling it a night, now.  Later, folks.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:37 AM (N49h9)

Later dude. I'm gonna have to shut down as well pretty soon.

428 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 02:49 AM (N49h9)

So are you now saying you have no reason to believe he " swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away"?

Am I correct in gathering you are just making an assumption about what happened?

429 She hates America, not good enough for her.

430 444, Indeed so. We have allowed chance to rule here. No more, I say. The States should impose severe standards on candidates.

431 So Mallamut, you are arguing that proving state officials will present false information on a birth certificate doesn't impeach their credibility with all other birth  certificates. Right? Let's put that aside for a moment.

Will you acknowledge, that State Officials will produce false information on a birth certificate regarding an adopted child? (like myself, who can produce copies of BOTH birth certificates.)

If so, will you further acknowledge that this is a common practice?

432 John McCain is quite clearly not a natural born citizen under the letter of the law and never should have been allowed on the ballot,

That is an untrue statement. He was born to two American parents on an American Base in the Canal Zone. For these purposes, that is considered sovereign American property. There should never have been any question about this.

433 I'll peruse the responses tomorrow. I've gotta go to bed.

434 Am I correct in gathering you are just making an assumption about what happened?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 02:51 AM (9B5OK)

Read davidt's post and stop bugging me about the most insignificant thing you can find.  He remembers it, too.

435 I remember it being reported locally that Obama went to the state records department during his visit here to see his grandmother, but my memory is not documentation.

436 The guy who reviewed The Phantom Menace and Attack of the clones should review the 2008 election. I bet a box of pizza rolls it would cause Barry to resign.

437 Alec,

I disagree with you about McCain's eligibility (he should never have been nominated for other reasons).  He was born to US citizens serving their country outside the confines of the US.  That would disqualify lots of kids of US service folks serving in the EUCOM and PACOM theaters.  They are there at the direction of the US government, not because they want to be there for kicks and grins.  "Thanks for serving our country, but tough luck if your kid ever wants to run for President."  I can see that applying IF one spouse is a foreign national and they opt for the spouse's citizenship for the kids for whatever reason and then switch back.

438 progressoverpeace or anyone else who thinks Lingle was in on it...

Why would Gov. Lingle, the woman who introduced Sarah Palin at the Republican National Convention and campaigned for McCain/Palin by saying, Barack Obama "would devastate our economy" do Obama's bidding to protect him?

Doesn't that seem a tad incongruous?

I'm off to sleep but I'm sure that there will be some explanation for this by morning.

439 Posted by: davidt at April 05, 2010 03:01 AM (aag4W)

Thanks, again. Now I'm really out of here before Drew starts accusing me of misspellings.

440 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 03:00 AM (N49h9)

So you don't stand by your assertion. In fact you term it 'insignificant'. Why am I'm supposed to take what you claim seriously?

441

Posted by: Diogenes: People nowadays believe the 14th amendment trumps the "Natural Born Citizen" clause. It doesn't.

Incorrect. Amendments always trump existing articles of the Constitution. Re-read the article that governs amendments. If an amendment does not trump existing articles, then what is the point of an amendment?

If an article conflicts with the 14th amendment, the amendment overwrites it.

The only thing that trumps an amendment is a later amendment.

442 >>>So you don't stand by your assertion.

I stand by my assertion.  I can't find a link for you.

>>>In fact you term it 'insignificant'. Why am I'm supposed to take what you claim seriously?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 03:04 AM (9B5OK)

Yes, because you are concentrating on an insignificant issue of whether the Indonesian Imbecile physically went to the department, when it's clear that there was communication with those officials and that he spent precious little time with granny.  I have a good memory of it, but the links will have to wait.  There are tons of links on the guy for everything, you know.

Others know what I'm talking about - though you like playing dumb about the Hawaii trip - and I do my best to provide as much evidence for my assertions as I can - as I have been doing for this whole thread. 

I don't care if you take my claims seriously, or not.  That's up to you and makes no difference to me, at all.

443 All long form birth certificates here in Hawaii are kept sealed in the vault unless requested by the individual or through some special court order. When Lingle and Fukino made their statements that Obama's BC was sealed they weren't saying a special effort was being made to seal Obama's BC. They were only saying it was sealed.

My guess is that when Obama visited the state records dept. it was to verify the BC would not be released without his permission.

444 Plane, ship, submarine, canoe, catapult, Klingon Bird of Prey? Barry's mom got to Hawaii somehow. Did she travel pregnant or not? One ticket or two? Are such records still in existence? Microfilmed?

445 460 -- The 14th Amendment defines citizenship rights, but contains no language that contradicts or amends the citizenship qualifications for the Presidency as defined in Article II, Section 1, which are explicitly defined as restricted to natural-born citizens only. Therefore the earlier language stands.

446 What THE.... under the 800 I am and wishing you all a good a great Easter, and I call out all good friends of the POST to state their nature, and let us be glad in our conversations by the beam of the digital pulse....EEEFFFING "A" That kinda had a flow to it ...shit maybe I should make a script and sell it to ....naw...

447

I agree with Jack that McCain SHOULD be considered natural born. Bill may be right that he IS natural born, but he is very wrong to say "there should never have been any question about this." It should have been tested by an enforcment mechanism, put in place to verify whether candidates meet the constitutionally specified requirements.

I agree with Gabriel that the courts cannot overturn elections. That isn't the issue here. Obama's election cannot be overturned on account of the "political question doctrine," which addresses exactly this. The will of the people can't be overturned. But unqualified candidates SHOULD be blocked from ever making it to the ballot, which is very much an issue going forward.

448 I disdain all of this talk of the O's birth records because there is so much evidence that he is in fact a US citizen through hi mother. What chaps my ass is the mans ability to seal ALL of his other records from any type of view. He seems to be about the only person able to do that. What I want to see is the documentation he should have had to apply to get those Scholarships to those high priced schools which would include who was paying the bills if he did not get one. I know that Colleges crawled up my ass for both kids before they got theirs and one of them was on the GI Bill. It seems to be a matter of public record for everyone except the Great O. Thus the never ending WHY?

449 Wrong again Gabe, as is often the case.  Barry had to be certified as eligible to be on the ballot, so it was not a lawful election.  And a natural born citizen is someone whose parents are citizens, it's that simple.  Doesn't matter where Barry was born, his father was a British subject and so was Barry.  Not to mention Barry doesn't dispute being an Indonesian citizen as a child, and they did not allow dual citizenship, etc.  It's not going away because we'll call you on it every time, you're wrong.

450

 

Still waiting for Drew M to validate his claim that Barack Hussein Obama made his Birth certificate available to anyone who wanted to see it.

Drew M? you're full of shit. A liar. You're just making stuff up like the 'ooga booga' birthers.

 

451

452 Fuckin A... Looks like I transported down into a saber fight... excuse me while I retire to the locker room to collect my minigun-LAWS combo with the bullhorn.."ARE U SHITING ME YOU BIRTHER FUCKS, DID YOUR MOMMA DROP U ON YOUR HEAD??? HAVE YOU EVER OR DID YOU EVER CONSIDER FUCKING ROSIE O'DONNELL WITH THE LEFT OVER SHAPED CHARGES FROM 911??? PLEASE EXTRACT YOUR HEADS FROM YOUR BROWN RINGED ASSES, SLAM YOUR FACE INTO THE NEAREST CONCRETE FORM and SKULL FUCK YOURSELF UNTIL YOU GET WITH THE PROGRAM....DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHATA SUB-HUMAN PIECE OF SHIT YOU ARE FOR DISTRACTING THE REAL AMERICANS FROM THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY OF VOTING THIS BERRY FROM OFFICE? YOU ARE FUCKING UP THE NATURAL ORDER. SO UN-FUCK YOURSELVES....NOW!! happy easter SO UN-FUCK YOURSELF....NOW!~!!!

453 ccruse456, you are the dumbest asshole who has ever lived. I advise you take a page from Adolf Hitler on a good day and blow your fucking brains out.

454 Good night morons and femorons

455 It seems to be a matter of public record for everyone except the Great O. Thus the never ending WHY?

Actually the college refused to release Hilary's thesis as well while she was first lady and while she was running for office in the primaries.

It was out there though because it had been previously released. IIANM it was on her hero, Saul Alinsky.

456 Vic at 474. Note that it was Shillary's thesis that they did not want to release. That I can understand as she still has some authorship rights over that. Not her transcripts and scholarship documents, which were released!

457 Not her transcripts and scholarship documents, which were released!

I did not know that they had released her transcripts and grades.  That stuff is privacy act material and they can be sued for releasing it. (not to mention it is a violation of law to release it).

458

I did not know that they had released her transcripts and grades.  That stuff is privacy act material and they can be sued for releasing it. (not to mention it is a violation of law to release it).

Posted by: Vic at April 05, 2010 06:05 AM (QrA9E)

I never hears that Hillary's college transcripts were released. I think she released her own thesis because she knew some Democrat rival must have had it and wanted it to become a non-story.

Unauthorized release of a college transcript can get you in legal trouble. Unless, of course, it's the transcript of a Republican.

459  he proved it the only way current Hawaii law allows.

While the rest of the statement may have merit - this is incorrect. As a lowly FSO (Facility Security Officer) I have requested applicants provide copies of original birth records (certified thru jurat and apostille, and occasionally a further letter of clarification) from the State of Hawaii and other states.  I did so, at my discretion, for applicants with far fewer background issues the BHO presents and for modest Secret clearances.  I cannot imagine forward a package with his story for a crypto ticket or compartmented clearance without extraordinary documentation. 

Adoption, non-US parent, underage parent, the State of Hawaii, and the overseas residency are all flags that are not addressed by presentation of an automated records summation.  It might get you a drivers license or Passport - but it wouldn't get you a job.

Going forwards, the courts shouldn't get involved, the States should - and tighten the documentation and challenge process for ballot access.  As the world get more interconnected and complex this problem is going to happen again.

460 Unless, of course, it's the transcript of a Republican.

How true. That reminds me of the recorded phone conversation of Newt Gingrich which was also a violation of law that never got prosecuted.

When I was teaching adult ed I had to read the privacy act and sign a form saying I had read it and understood it. 

We were required to keep all material with grades on it in a fireproof locked file.

461 O/T:  6.2 - Molluca Sea....

If you look here, this and the US earthquake and the Chile earthquake form a triangle...

462

Birther smirther.  I just want Barrack Hussein Obama Jr to do a similar document dump that John McCain did to prove he was a US Citizen.

If Obama does not release these documents then he has himself to blame for these allegations and no one else.    If there is nothing to hide, why is money being spent to keep them out of the public spotlight.  And Obama will join one other American President to have an * put beside his term of office due to citizenship questions.  There are still questions on whether Andrew Jackson was born in Scotland, at sea, or as was claimed in the US.

463 Gabriel:

My headline doesn't say Michelle said AIDS was "caused" by homophobia.  It says she blamed homophobia for AIDS's spread.  Having just made the argument that homophobia is a causal agent for the disease's spread yourself, where does the "no" part of your "well, yes and no" come in (with regard to my headline), and were you indeed implying that I said she said that AIDS was "caused" by homophobia, as it appears you were?

464 Silly bitch. Homophobia doesn't cause HIV. Sitting on public toilet seats causes HIV. Or pregnancy. I forget which.

465 @Empire

No, you get HIV if your wife over cooks meat.

466

The bitch slipped up, she should have a teleprompter at all times, like me.

And I could confess I'm a Kenyan to all of you brainwashed fucks and you'd still slobber my knob.

Seriously, how many of these little "slip-ups" do you need to figure this shit out? That Greek midget bastard had to correct me on the air about my Religion of Peace, Kristof loved how I sang "Allah is great" to him, and you dumbasses STILL believe me when I tell you I'm Christian.

DAMN white people are stupid.

467 Barry Soetoro you Muslim plant when do you change your name?

468 And I could confess I'm a Kenyan to all of you brainwashed fucks and you'd still slobber my knob.

Well, yeah.  That's what I don't get about people who get all into the birthplace shit.  Even if it's true.... so what?  Democrats are still just going to say "oh, it's irrelevant and his birthplace is just a technicality.  Plus, that part of the constitution is centuries old.  Doesn't matter."  I really don't get the people who focus on this.  Even if true, it changes remarkably little.

469 It doesn't matter where he was born...the rotten apple didn't fall far from the rotten tree. Barry's parents were both US citizens. "Pop" is one person, while a placeholder named Barack Obama, Sr., is another. Once accepted, all things --- foggy memories of his "parents" "being in love," Barry's lack of concern for his "family" (and vice-versa ...at least when he was a nobody) make sense, and the heavy insertion of a guy named Frank into his life, and then Barry's later interest in going to Chicago. Hmm...Chicago...what would inspire a boy to go to Chicago? And before you say John Hughes movies, Barry made his move well before 16 Candles.

470 What I also don't get is why, whenever birthplace stuff pops up here at AoS, someone is bitching about Erick Erickson over at RedState deciding to forbid that stuff on their site.  It never fails.

I think someone has a grudge about it against him.

471 Oh yeah. It also explains why all the cover-up on the real birth certificate. My guess is that we won't find Barack Sr. anywhere on it. Rather, I expect to see a cheating husband (who had a thing for young white girls) and Alinsky devotee on it. Frank Marshall Davis has big ears too.

472 if the united states military considers what obama provided good enough (hawaiian-born military relatives have the exact same birth certificate format) to prove citizenship, then that is good enough. 
none of this has anything to do with the less than optimal decisions getting made by obama regarding how to run stuff in this country.  but getting worked up over what is clearly a red herring set up to distract a subset of all too eager right wing folks takes energy from useful critique and action against the poor actions of this administration.

473 I don't want to get into the debate again so I'll just....

I don't get it.  Why would you post anything at all about Michelle's speech, (which clearly will lead to an all-out discussion of his BC) and at the end announce you "don't want to get into the debate again"?  What else would there be to debate about her 'Kenya' comment? 

"Ok everyone, Michelle made a comment about Kenya being Obama's homeland.  The ONLY reason I'm posting this is to find out who can locate Kenya on a map?"

Sheesh...

474
>>>I'm sure she's not a birther and believes, like most of us, that the President was born in the United States.

Cute.

>>>I don't want to get into the debate again...

In other words, Gabe'll just raise the issue, insult you, and then tell you the debate is over.

475
Oh, and did anyone notice Pat Dollard had to come here and bitch-slap Gabe? It's embarrassing for AoS to have this co-blogger post from the hip all the time when he doens't know what he's talking about.

476
Pat, if you read this, most of us don't agree with Gabe. He doesn't speak for the Ace of Spades community.

477

Posted by: Tom in Korea at April 05, 2010 07:55 AM (nS7nk)

 

See what I mean? Dumbass crackas just fold right up like a lawn chair in the face of my onslaught. They KNOW they've been turned out like a buncha ho's. These ain't your granddaddy's "constitutional freedom fighters". Hell that stupid drunkard McCarthy was more effective than 100 of you weak-ass chumps.

478
Bush has still done more for Africa.

479 Whether he was or he wasn't (and I have some doubts) -- unless that angle can actually get some good, honest, real traction I see it as a moot point.  People can argue it until the cows come home, but as long as it doesn't get results I'd much rather see people focusing on things that hold a hope of getting him ousted.  There are plenty of those, and they don't cause as much of a kerfluffle within the ranks.

480 In 1961 it was not very difficult for a family member to defraud the State of Hawaii  by registering and claiming a child was born there when he or she was not and obtain a Hawaiian birth certificate.

Posted by: sickinmass at April 05, 2010 08:32 AM (1rflU)

Oh, don't go there SIM.  I seem to recall mentioning the various methods of birth registration in Hawaii on another AOS thread about his BC a while ago and either Gabe or Drew lit into me.  I believe the response was something to the effect...."SEE! You people will never be satisfied!"

481 Pat, if you read this, most of us don't agree with Gabe. He doesn't speak for the Ace of Spades community. Posted by: a.k.a. at April 05, 2010 08:25 AM (GRgk4) Think about that for a while. The light might flicker on after a bit.

482 Yeah, as you can see it really scared me too. ;o)

483 Notice that the Birtherism nonsense is the exact same nonsense as it was this time last year, and long before that as well.

There is nothing NEW to report. Just like with 9-11 trutherism. Over and over, the same discredited "evidence" is recycled and repeated by newcomers as if it's the first time anybody's ever seen it or heard it, and the same argument just keeps happening over and over again.

To no end, and with no new developments.

Newsflash to Birthers: LET IT GO. There is no "there" there. And if there is, the Birthers haven't produced the "there."

This reminds me of 9-11 Truthers jumping all over Larry Silverstein (owner of the WTC properties) when he said in an intervew that he had told the FDNY to "pull it" during that horrible day. The Truthers, in unison and predictably, said "SEE?! SEE!! HE TOLD THEM TO DEMOLISH TEH WTC!@!!! PROOF!@!$!!"

Um, no. He was referring to a conversation he had with an FDNY chief who was discussing the possibility of saving some of the structure of WTC 7. Silverstein said that it wasn't worth the risk to the FDNY and to have the chief "pull it" (the operation) out of harm's way.

Oops.

484 "He doesn't speak for the Ace of Spades community." A lot of the Ace of Spades community are brain dead dufuses.

485

To hell with the Birth Certificate.  I want to see his original college transcripts from Occidental, Columbia and Harvard Law.  I suspect they would be verrrrrry illuminating, so to speak.

Why can't the guys on the Chicago Tribune who were able to get their mitts on two of Obama's opponents' sealed divorce records get their hands on the college transcripts and publish them?

486 Whether he was or he wasn't (and I have some doubts) -- unless that angle can actually get some good, honest, real traction I see it as a moot point. People can argue it until the cows come home, but as long as it doesn't get results I'd much rather see people focusing on things that hold a hope of getting him ousted. There are plenty of those, and they don't cause as much of a kerfluffle within the ranks. I'm with jane, here. Barry-O's regime is bad for the country and we need to dig our heels in, but pick our battles. Which is more important, massive Federal debt, or Obama's lineage? There are plenty of reason's to doubt, but if you came up with a smoking gun today, how long would it be before something came of it?

487 Pat, if you read this, most of us don't agree with Gabe. He doesn't speak for the Ace of Spades community.

Hear Hear.
Why is it that it's OK to talk about BHO's cavalier approach to US Constitution, but every time his personal background (or lack thereof) comes up Malor covers his ears and says "lalalalalalalala you crazeeee!1!1!!!1

488 506  Well, until something that can stick can be produced this whole birth certificate thing not only doesn't work, but it works for the other side to discredit them and cause dissension.  That's probably the reason he doesn't do anything aye, yay, or nay about it -- it kinda works for him in a left-handed way.

489 Posted by: Gerbil's Molar at April 05, 2010 09:02 AM (dP6Ky) The problem isn't "talking about it", the problem is being an ignorant imbecile.

490 OT:  Steele throws the race card...from Yahoo News.

Steele had already come under fire for committee spending on flights, limousines and high-end hotels, but he was not present at the Voyeur Hollywood West on Jan. 31 when a group of young Republicans ran a tab picked up by the RNC...

But he also attributed his problem to "unnamed Republicans who don't like me."

Steele was asked if he felt he has a smaller margin of error than others because he's black.

"The honest answer is yes. It just is," the former Maryland lieutenant governor said. "Barack Obama has a slimmer margin than others."

"But you take that as part of the nature of it," Steele added. "It's more because you're not somebody they know. ... Not old-boy network oriented. ... My view on politics is much more grassroots oriented ... so I tend to, you know, come at it a little bit stronger, a little bit more street-wise. That's rubbed some feathers the wrong way."

491 A lot of the Ace of Spades community are brain dead dufuses...

brains... BRAINS!

492 Steele was asked if he felt he has a smaller margin of error than others because he's black. Holy fuck. Exact opposite. Now there's a brain dead dufus!

493 518 A lot of the Ace of Spades community are brain dead dufuses....brains... BRAINS!
Posted by: Brain dead

I thought that was a requirement.

494 I want to see his original college transcripts from Occidental, Columbia and Harvard Law. I suspect they would be verrrrrry illuminating, so to speak. For what possible reason? He is intellectually lazy and has slightly above average intelligence. A lawyer? I wouldn't want this guy representing me in court. I don't care what Harvard Law said about him twenty years ago. This guy steps in on national TV every flippin' day.

495 "Far as I know, the only Americans with an excuse for referring to another country as the 'home country' are immigrants and Texans."

Nails!     Ya'll.

496 "FKOTUS says and believes things that would get Republicans endlessly mocked by legacy media"...there's a shocker.

497 I want to see his original college transcripts from Occidental, Columbia and Harvard Law. I suspect they would be verrrrrry illuminating, so to speak. I just want to see him out of the White House

498 Pat, I wrote that you said "the First Lady is blaming the spread of AIDS on homophobia."

The title of your post is: "Michelle Obama Says Kenya Is Barack’s Home Country - Also Blames Spread Of AIDS On “Homophobia”.

So how have I misquoted you?

499 511 "He doesn't speak for the Ace of Spades community."

A lot of the Ace of Spades community are brain dead dufuses.

Posted by: Christoph at April 05, 2010 08:58 AM (0fq7b)

Dufi? Dufa perhaps?  I think 'Dufa" works better.

Sounds Polish...

In any event I'm sure there are some honest clear-headed people out there who are genuinely intrigued with the "Mystery of the Birth Certificate".  To them I say, the truth is out there- go find it!  And if you do find something definitive then by all means write a book on it- you'll make some money and in 50 years my grandchildren will be able to win bar bets on "who served as US president but was ineligible?"

But for the Love of God if you actually want to get rid of this socialist bastard in the shortest possible time then please don't go popping off with things like constitutional paternity requirements to be POTUS or some other such stuff that is just perfect fodder for Axelrod and Co. to use in conjunction with the MSM (redundant I know) to paint all valid criticism of the administration as insane racism.

There is no magic bullet.  The Blue Dress was not going to undo the election of 1992 and the Birth Certificate is not going to undo the election of 2008.  The only way to get rid of The Won is to defeat him at the ballot box and that is not going to happen if we give the opposition material to use against us.

"Birthers" are to the Conservative movement what people like Eric Rudolph are to the Pro-Life movement, and when you let that fact sink in then it's not at all surprising that the Precedent keeps mum on the whole issue just to fan the flames.

500 You guys are tainting perfectly good laying hens.

Who will want them when you are done?

501 122 check out this pic    http://tiny.cc/7tk4d

Of O and "Grandfather"

Posted by: Molly at April 04, 2010 11:36 PM (YH35U)

After seeing that pic and learning that Obama's supposed mother left Hawaii to go to school 2 weeks after the birth, I'm convinced that the grandfather knocked up some black chick and had his daughter take the blame.

That begs the question of where is Obama's real mommy?  Dead or paid off?

502 Geez, can I kill a thread or what?

Guess from here on it's all lace wigs and laptop batteries....

503 "In any event I'm sure there are some honest clear-headed people out there who are genuinely intrigued with the "Mystery of the Birth Certificate". Sure, I'm somewhat curious. My problem is the people who continually say the same untrue things over and over again, often packing half a dozen untruths and errors of logic and fact in a single comment, yet refusing to acknowledge reality in any way or learn the truth. Like... some of the examples you gave in your comment.

504 We need a perma-Birther thread.

505 And a natural born citizen is someone whose parents are citizens, it's that simple.

Well actually no, it isn't that simple.  The Naturalization Act of 1790 stated that what you said above was true, that any child born to two American Citizens, even if that child were born outside the territorial boundries of the United States, was considered a "natural born citizen" of the United States.

However in 1795 that language was changed, so that it states that children born outside the US to two American Citizens is considered a "citizen" of the United States however the term "natural born" was specifically removed from the law just 5 years after it was enacted.

It's also interesting to note that according to the State Department their official policy is quite clear, United States Military bases and Consulates overseas are not considered as part of the United States for the purposes of determining citizenship.  That means merely the fact that you are born on a military base or in an overseas consulate that doesn't automatically grant you citizenship nor does it mean that you are considered a "natural born" citizen as described in the Constitution.

Now, there isn't a whole lot of Supreme Court Case law directly on point, Minor v. Happersett and United Stats vrs Wong Kim Ark are about as close as I can find to cases even somewhat related.zz

And neither really sets out a clear set of rules as too who is and isn't considered a "natural born citizen" so the truth is there really isn't a hard, fast answer to this particular question that one can point to for specific requirements on what does or doesn't constitute a natural born citizen.

Most constitutional scholars are of the opinion that the term "natural born" believe that the correct interpretation of Article II, Section I of the Constitution includes anyone born in the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, The US Virgin Islands as well as anyone born outside of the Untied Stats to two parents who are U.S. citizens. 

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I don't have a law degree but I did once get a gold star on a social studies test.  Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm am of the opinion that we don't have sufficient documented evidence that Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, however this does bring up a couple of interesting issues.

One, as several others have pointed out, there really doesn't seem to be much of a "enforcement" provision here at all, either constitutionally or otherwise.  It's interesting that Obama doesn't have to produce documentation like a birth certificate to prove he's eligible to run for President, and there is a certain amount of irony in that when you consider how much documentation you have to prove you are who you say you are when you lose your drivers license. 

Second, the question of why Obama would continue to insist his records remain sealed.  If all the Birth Certificate would show was that he was indeed a natural born citizen of the US I have no doubt he would release it immediately.

However he doesn't.. which makes one begin to wonder if there's something here to hide.  My guess is there is something being hidden, but my guess is it probably has a whole lot less to do with his citizenship status and a whole lot more to do with proving that some of his claims he made about his background or lineage were totally bogus from the get go.  I'm guessing it's probably got a lot more to do with the latter rather than the former.

My guess is if the birth certificate were released it would likely remove any doubt that Obama is a natural born US citizen, however I'm guessing that most likely that there is some information on it that directly contradicts one or more statements he's made concerning his history or ancestry, and that's why they've decided to continue to keep it under wraps. 

506 "We need a perma-Birther thread." Kind of like a grenade sump.

507 444
"...But the fundamental issue here is that we have a constitutional requirement with no enforcement mechanism..."

"...because we have no mechanism in place for compelling evidence so that this issue can be properly judged..."

Posted by: Alec Rawls at April 05, 2010 02:50 AM (57sG0)
--------------------------------------

This is the core of the issue and EVERYONE should agree that the congress needs to pass clear and definitive law implementing this part of the constitution. There needs to be a NATIONAL commission with subpoena power that does this for ALL candidates and makes all the evidence public. And ANYONE should have the standing to sue.

As for Obama, the birth certificate issue will NEVER go away until the original is made available to the PUBLIC.

508 sickinmass writes:

A newspaper birth announcement from local Honolulu newspapers was simply a confirmation that the Honolulu health department "registered" a birth as occurring there based on what someone told them. Given Hawaii's very lax birth registration laws in 1961, without independent contemporaneous evidence and non-family member witnesses, the registration of a birth as having occurred in Hawaii does not 100% prove the birth actually occurred there.

Not necessarily. The Nordyke twins were born at nearly the same time as Obama, and in the same hospital, (and have BC numbers right next to Obama) yet there is no birth announcement for them in either of the Newspapers that carried the Obama announcement. If the Health dept. was the one putting the birth announcements in the newspapers, why didn't they put the Nordyke twins in those same two papers?

509 Geez, can I kill a thread or what?

Posted by: Nighthawk at April 05, 2010 09:41 AM

We can only hope. LOL

My question to all the so-called birthers posting here.  What good does that do your cause?  Shouldn't you be spending time on some site that might actually want to research or fund litigation that would prove your point?  Why bother wasting time arguing with people who aren't going to change their minds anyway? 

510 WELL reasoned, HAROLD. You MAKE a convincing ARGUMENT. For THE most part.

511
My problem is the people who continually say the same untrue things over and over again, often packing half a dozen untruths and errors of logic and fact in a single comment, yet refusing to acknowledge reality in any way or learn the truth.

Like... some of the examples you gave in your comment.

Posted by: Christoph at April 05, 2010 09:46 AM (0fq7b)

My biggest problem is that it is a 'loser' issue.  Even if everything the Birthers say is 100% true there is no way to use it against Obama in a fashion that the opposition can't effectively neutralize by spinning it as 'racism' and projecting it at deafening decibel levels through their megaphone MSM.

I don't know it for a fact, but it appears that Birhters are laboring under the delusion that if they can 'prove' Obama isn't a 'natural born' citizen then the election of 2008 will somehow be nullified.  That is just not going to happen.

The only way the election of 2008 is going to be 'nullified' is if a credible Republican candidate can stand up in 2012 and ask, as Reagan did in 1980, "are you better off today than you were four years ago?"  THAT is a winning issue.

The Mystery of the Birth Certificate is, at best, an exercise in legal curiosity and, at worst, a club with which the opposition can pummel us in the media.

512

Mallamut quotes and writes:

"So Mallamut, you are arguing that proving state officials will present false information on a birth certificate doesn't impeach their credibility with all other birth  certificates. Right? Let's put that aside for a moment."

Wrong. I am saying you have no evidence to show that the State Officials altered, changed, forged, doctored or whatever term you are going to throw out next this particular document. 

Whatever. Did you not see the sentence "Let's put that aside for a moment" ?

Mallamut quotes and writes:

Will you acknowledge, that State Officials will produce false information on a birth certificate regarding an adopted child? (like myself, who can produce copies of BOTH birth certificates.)

If so, will you further acknowledge that this is a common practice?

Not my job to prove or disprove anything. You are missing the point. I am not surprised.

If you are just being contentious, I'm not going to bother trying to reason with you. If you will not acknowledge the least point I attempt to make, then we have no common ground for a discussion. Saying it's "Not my job" is just a dodge.
If you are aware that I am correct about this, the intellectually honest thing to do is to simply fucking admit it and not try to ignore the point. 

I dare say, if you thought I was factually wrong about this, you would already have said so and been crowing about it.

 

513
Mallamutt writes:

Or, the fucking dog ate my homework argument.  Curious, is the malware also part of the grand conspiracy? Did David Axelrod infect your computer to keep the truth from coming out? Did Bobby Gibbs direct your software server to infect your hard drive at a crucial time to keep your evidence from reaching the public?

Mockery is your method of debate? Your attitude tells me that you wouldn't look at any evidence I could show you. DrewM obviously doesn't want to see my proof concerning my (and others) birth certificates. I doubt you want to have anything put in front of you that might actually crack that false sense of self assuredness. Your methods are obviously more geared toward the superficial than the factual.

In other words, you might have an ability to throw shit, but you seemingly can't analyze any.

514 Dude, we're done here. I didn't even bother to read beyond your initial mockery. Talk to yourself.

515 In 198, I wrote "No, he made it available at his campaign office for anyone who wanted to go see it."

I thought that was the case but can't find any link to validate it.

We do know FactCheck.org saw it but I don't know if they were specifically invited or it was something open to any media member.

516 Original Intent of article II: This article is a using original sources to explain the meaning of "Natural Born Citizen". Many people have trouble understanding this. Take a look at this scholarly article: http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm Also note that the requirements for lessor offices,senator,representative etc...use the term citizen only.

517 The Obama File has photos and profiles of the two people who verified O's birth certificate at Farsecheck. Pretty funny.

518 Uh. Less interesting to me uh than the uh Kenya home country uh remark is the way "brilliant lawyer" Michelle uses the word "uh" as both a period and an exclamation point.

519 Uh. Watching again uh I realize that Michelle uses "uh" for all her punctuation needs uh commas uh and semi colons included uh.

520 noislamocommie writes:

http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

Also note that the requirements for lessor offices,senator,representative etc...use the term citizen only.

Dude! That is an AWESOME find! I've seen similar before, but not with so many DETAILS.

521

Cool it, Mallamutt..

...you're coming off as a total dickbag

522 We do know FactCheck.org saw it but I don't know if they were specifically invited or it was something open to any media member.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 11:06 AM (9B5OK)

It was exactly how I explained it to you, and have done so before, in response to your lie about the BC having been made available at his campaign headquarters.  Two people were allowed to physically examine the BC for about 27 minutes - oooooh.  That was what you considered to be "produced a document", as I said in my response to your blatant lie and you just ignored.

523 Also note that the requirements for lessor offices,senator,representative etc...use the term citizen only.
Posted by: noislamocommie at April 05, 2010 11:14 AM (Jpn2p)

What's that got to do with anything? Of course there can be a difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen. A citizen can either be natural born or naturalized. The framers clearly prohibited naturalized citizens from being President but not from holding inferior offices. This isn't new or shocking to anyone.

You put a lot of time into the meaning of the word 'natural' but forget that 'natural' in the context of citizenship and immigration is a term of art that the founders were quite familiar with. There's no need to go to all those contortions to come up with some idea of that in this context 'natural' actually means 'normal' which you then arbitrarily define.

It's nice that you personally, "have established the following necessary and sufficient conditions for one to be a natural born Citizen of the United States..." but that's not the same as an actual law or court case on point. You guys never seem to provide any of that.

Other than it's inconvenient to the narrative, why do people keep skimming past Ark's holding that there are two types of citizens and only two types (natural and naturalized)?

524 #493 - your link doesn't work anymore.

also,

#421 - your second link isn't working anymore

where they linking when you posted? 

That would be interesting to know.

525 re my 553, sorry I just realized you may not have been the author of the piece you linked to. My points still stand but you didn't claim authorship of it..

526 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 11:51 AM (N49h9)

Let me makes something 100% clear...I don't believe a word you say unless you provide some sort of link.

I just checked and in all the comments you've made on this thread you've offered exactly one link and that was to your facebook contact information.

You are simply not a reliable source for the time of day.

I had the decency to admit when I couldn't back up something I asserted. Do you?

527 progressoverpeace,

Maybe you missed this last night or I missed your reply but care to answer this question I posed @456?

Why would Gov. Lingle, the woman who introduced Sarah Palin at the Republican National Convention and campaigned for McCain/Palin by saying, Barack Obama "would devastate our economy" do Obama's bidding to protect him?

Doesn't that seem a tad incongruous?

528
Here's a link:

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/

Mario Apuzzo address the Wong Kim Ark Case, et al.


 

529 Hello Drew, I'm just trying to bring in some fresh articles that I found interesting. There is a strong claim by some that one can never be a "NBC" as classified by STATUTORY LAW vs. Constitutional Law. Here is a good link laying this all out on the Obama File: http://theobamafile.com/ObamaNaturalBorn.htm I do think that this is a legal question that needs to be clarified for the future as I believe after my reading of various articles that the Framers intent was to avoid disloyalty/allegiance issues. I don't think we can shake Obama but I think we need to be smarter and more critical in the future as we select a President.In these "international/global" times we live in I think this issue has popped up and given us pause for thought. Should we allow the executive branch to be filled with someone connected in a familial way to another nation-state? will this cloud the best interests of the USA in some way? This is the philosophical part of the issue that I think is very important as I let the Framers mindset permeate my head. I believe they were concerned with loyalty issues. I do not wish to get beat up in a debate I just want to point out there are different ways of thinking about this issue. I have read and studied many features of this issue but I'm still involved in trying to get sheila Jackson-Lee out,etc... it's healthy to have such debates as we are forced to think a little more deeply about things.

530

This is interesting..

I erred last night in my comments in a couple of points regarding the establishment on natural born citizenship. My recollections were a bit faulty.

1) I said that if Obama were born overseas, he would actually be a citizen based on his mothers status, but not natural born.

That is not true. He would not be a citizen at all. ...From the State Dept website:

tinyurl.com/yzvzyb

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.

2) The second error was a bit minor and doesn't change the basic argument for my original statement. I said that the mother had to have lived in the US for five years after the age of 16. The law says 14.

She was only 18 when Baracky was born.

 

 

531 Mario Apuzzo wrote:

"12. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (189 : It quoted the same definition of “natural born Citizen” as did Minor v. Happersett. It declared under the Fourteenth Amendment a child born on United States soil to alien parents who were domiciled and legally residing in the United States and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United States a “citizen of the United States,” It did not find him an Article II “natural born Citizen.” The Wong Kim Ark holding cannot be relied upon to define an Article II “natural born Citizen.” Defining what an Article II “natural born Citizen” is depends upon what the Framers intended that clause to mean in 1787."


You can find his more in depth analysis at
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/

532 Other than it's inconvenient to the narrative, why do people keep skimming past Ark's holding that there are two types of citizens and only two types (natural and naturalized)?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 11:52 AM (9B5OK)

So, you claim that a dual citizen is the same a plain American? You can't be serious. Because the Founders didn't accept the idea of dual citizens - in fact they abhorred the very idea.

But, if you don't think there is any difference between a dual citizen and a plain American - natural born or naturalized - wait until the shit hits the fan over something. Dual citizens can leave the US while plain Americans cannot, unless they can convince some other country to allow them in. The dependence of a dual citizen on the United States is totally different from the dependence of a natural born American on the United States.

In practicality, this is a gigantic difference and anyone with a brain would understand how this split allegiance and lack of dependence on the future of the United States makes these classes of citizenship quite different. The Founders found such differences enough to rule out allowing the class of dual citizens, and I showed you far above in the thread how the idea is still enshrined in the oath of citizenship that we require of naturalizing Americans. The new class of dual citizens was only created much later.

---------------------------

Maybe you missed this last night or I missed your reply but care to answer this question I posed @456?

Why would Gov. Lingle, the woman who introduced Sarah Palin at the Republican National Convention and campaigned for McCain/Palin by saying, Barack Obama "would devastate our economy" do Obama's bidding to protect him?

Doesn't that seem a tad incongruous?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:01 PM (9B5OK)

I saw this, but didn't see any reason to respond to it. It's a non-issue. I don't know Lingle's motivations and don't really care. Why should I? Why did McShame not say one word about the illegal campaign financing that the BHO campaign was doing on its web site, turning off the AVS to allow anonymous donations? McShame, of McShame-Feingold, couldn't be bothered to hammer his opponent, who was raping the idea of campaign finance law - openly and brazenly. Lingle's act was nothing compared to that.

It probably comes down to cowardice - which is what drives most of you trying to tell us to shut up. People were scared of the cities erupting in riots, and they were scared of being called racists and loons by the intellectually dishonest people who continue to do so.

 

533

Given this State of Hawai'i law:

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

...and given this US law:

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child

...wouldn't it propose a wonderful constituitional pickle if Baracky were born outside the US..but had a Hawai'in birth certificate??

Do you suppose that it is possible that this could be the reasoning behind not releasing the original birth certificate??

534 Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:15 PM (eVJ7T)

I know the argument.

It just skips one very important thing...the Ark court clearly stated the Constitution (in the 14th Amendment)...

contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only: birth and naturalization. Citizenship by naturalization can only be acquired by naturalization under the authority and in the forms of law. But citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the Constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.

Apuzzo's argument is that 'natural born citizen' is a 3rd kind of citizenship.  That's simply contradicted by the decision. Again, it's a theory and it maybe what people want the law to be but as we sit here (and for the last 100+ years) it's not the actual law.

535 Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:19 PM (N49h9)

So despite asserting that Obama "swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away" (an assertion which you have no proof of and call "insignificant" (in comment 452), you're convinced Lingle was in on you just can't imagine why. Except maybe she's a coward. Or something.

And why exactly am I supposed to take this crap seriously and not call it a kooky conspiracy theory?

536 Why would Gov. Lingle, the woman who introduced Sarah Palin at the Republican National Convention and campaigned for McCain/Palin by saying, Barack Obama "would devastate our economy" do Obama's bidding to protect him?

Doesn't that seem a tad incongruous?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:01 PM (9B5OK)

Why should a Republican Governor performing their duties as they understand them be remarkable? Everyone is saying that Obama has a right to privacy. I don't believe this at all, but apparently the idea is common enough among others.

537

2) The second error was a bit minor and doesn't change the basic argument for my original statement. I said that the mother had to have lived in the US for five years after the age of 16. The law says 14.

She was only 18 when Baracky was born.

Posted by: beedubya at April 05, 2010 12:09 PM (AnTyA)

This point has been brought out several times. I've seen various discussions and references to this point, and the whole argument hinges on what was the law in 1961.

In any case, I don't think i've seen a good refutation of this point.

538

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:32 PM

If you read the bold print just above my point 2)...the law is stated very clearly. I took that directly from the State Dept website

539 Apart from everything else previously mentioned, I recall finding a website that claims to cite Hawaiian law regarding the ability of Election officials to obtain original documents.

If the cite is true, then Hawaiian officials are compelled by Hawaiian law to give up the document to any Election official that requests it.

Let me see if I can find the website that mentions this. (It was titled something rotten in Hawaii, or red flags over Hawaii, or some such.)

540 Posted by: beedubya at April 05, 2010 12:21 PM (AnTyA)

That might be interesting were it not for the fact that §338-17.8 of Hawaiian law wasn't passed until 1982. (here's the state of Hawaii site to verify that)

Now, I'm bad at math but I'm pretty sure Obama was born before that.

541 495 I don't get it.  Why would you post anything at all about Michelle's speech, (which clearly will lead to an all-out discussion of his BC) and at the end announce you "don't want to get into the debate again"?  What else would there be to debate about her 'Kenya' comment?

Posted by: Tami at April 05, 2010 08:15 AM (VuLos)

Heh. I was wondering the same thing as the "shut up and smile" circus paraded on all last night.

Nothing like a little intellectual cowardice.

542 Why should a Republican Governor performing their duties as they understand them be remarkable? Everyone is saying that Obama has a right to privacy. I don't believe this at all, but apparently the idea is common enough among others.
Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:27 PM (eVJ7T)

Take it up with progressoverpeac. He's the one who is claiming something nefarious happened on Obama's trip to Hawaii, not me.

543 I found it.

Here's a quote:

"1.       DOH Director Fukino illegally hid until Nov 2009 the DOH Administrative Rules showing that election officials could have received a copy of ObamaÂ’s original birth certificate without his permission. The DOH has said they canÂ’t release any records without ObamaÂ’s permission. But HRS 338-18(a)  allows state laws and DOH rules to govern the disclosure of vital records, and the current rules  -Chapter 8b, 2.5(A)(1)(f) -would allow any election officer transacting the placement of ObamaÂ’s name on the ballot to receive a certified copy."

And a link.
http://tinyurl.com/ya8hsxm

544 This point has been brought out several times. I've seen various discussions and references to this point, and the whole argument hinges on what was the law in 1961.
Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:32 PM (eVJ7T)

No, the whole argument hinges on where Obama was born. Since the only evidence is that he was born in Hawaii, the law quoted about foreign births is irrelevant.

Unless you have some proof he was born outside of the US, it's moot.

545

If you read the bold print just above my point 2)...the law is stated very clearly. I took that directly from the State Dept website

Posted by: beedubya at April 05, 2010 12:36 PM (AnTyA)

What i'm getting at is the law has been changed in the intervening years. If that is current law, it may not have been the existing law at the time. I've seen people reference the applicable law from that time period, but I don't any longer recall exactly what it said.

546 So despite asserting that Obama "swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away" (an assertion which you have no proof of and call "insignificant" (in comment 452),

Oy.  This again.  Yes, whether he actually visited the state records department or not is insignificant in this discussion.  It was a throw out line my discussion, as you might have been able to tell by the flip expression "swung around".  But one other commenter, davidt, also has some recollection of that happening.  If you want to consider it untrue, then go right ahead.  That's fine with me.  It doesn't change anything - which is why it is an insignificant part of this debate.  Do you understand what "insignicant" means, or is your feel for that word about as good as your feel for "conspiracy"? 

you're convinced Lingle was in on you just can't imagine why. Except maybe she's a coward. Or something.

Huh?  Lingle did what every other public official was doing.  Many of them were just being cowards, like so many were being cowards as they let themselves be cowed into not saying 'hussein', even though that is the guy's actual middle name - though we don't know the whole name story as he used to call himself Barry Soetoro and it is unknown if that was ever official or not.

And why exactly am I supposed to take this crap seriously and not call it a kooky conspiracy theory?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:26 PM (9B5OK)

You can call it a "kooky theory" (not that it is really a theory of any sort - unless you want to call every single thought a "theory") but not a "kooky conspiracy theory".  Of course, you'd have to understand what constitutes a "conspiracy" to understand that.  The lame streams all worked in unison to bury tons of stuff about the Indonesian Imbecile - something that is without any doubt at all - but it wasn't necessarily a conspiracy, only a confluence of America-hate, leftist desires, runaway political correctness and naked stupidity.

You do understand that people act in seeming unison without needing to be directed?  Right?  Birds don't flock because of a central authority.  They flock because of independent, individual rules that yield the emergent behavior of flocking.  Please tell me that you have, at least, a minimal understanding of this.

547 No, the whole argument hinges on where Obama was born. Since the only evidence is that he was born in Hawaii, the law quoted about foreign births is irrelevant.

Unless you have some proof he was born outside of the US, it's moot.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:42 PM (9B5OK)

This is one reason I don't recall the details of the law. I didn't consider it to be particularly relevant to the points I try to make, the main one being that 50 State Government election board officials were negligent in certifying Obama for the ballot without verifying his credentials adequately.  And No, relying on the word of state officials and their non contemporaneous documents, is not adequate.

(Actually, they didn't even go THAT far. They simply accepted Obama's sworn statement that he was qualified.)

Even you must agree the standard for verification of qualifications should be higher than taking somone's word for it.

548

That might be interesting were it not for the fact that §338-17.8 of Hawaiian law wasn't passed until 1982. (here's the state of Hawaii site to verify that)
Now, I'm bad at math but I'm pretty sure Obama was born before that.
Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:38 PM

It still is very interesting...your dubious math skills notwithstanding. Notice that the law applies for parents living in the "Territory" of Hawai'i...an entity which was dissolved in 1959..It's true..it's in the history books and everything. Why would they have referred to territory that if the law were not meant to be applied to those born in Hawai'i prior to 1982??

Hmmm...was the birth certificate issued retroactively???

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such

549 Take it up with progressoverpeac. He's the one who is claiming something nefarious happened on Obama's trip to Hawaii, not me.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:40 PM (9B5OK)

Aha!  Now I see why you thought the "swinging arund to the records department" mention was so significant.  I never alleged that it involved anything nefarious, only that it showed the Indonesian Imbecile's priorities - which anyone with a brain understood by my post.  If I wanted allege illegal acts involved in that, I would have stated so.  BHO had every legal right to restrict access to his documents and he, from my recollection, made sure of that while he was allegedly visiting dying, typical, racist granny (who died without him after).  It was an argument of mindset, not legality, Drew.

Now, I understand why you are so confused, though I can't figure out why you would make such ridiculous assumptions.  I never even intimated that the visit to the state records department (or however the communication took place) involved anything illegal, just WEIRD.

550

You do understand that people act in seeming unison without needing to be directed?  Right?  Birds don't flock because of a central authority.  They flock because of independent, individual rules that yield the emergent behavior of flocking.  Please tell me that you have, at least, a minimal understanding of this.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:48 PM (N49h9)

Excellent point. I am constantly pointing out that a "conspiracy" is not required. For some reason, the opposition always wants to insert a "conspiracy" into our arguments, then call us "conspiracy" nuts.

By the way, did you get my email?

551 I'm posting this again. *IF* it's true, it appears to be very relevant to the topic of discussion. At the website, there are hyperlinks to the claimed legal references.



"1.       DOH Director Fukino illegally hid until Nov 2009 the DOH Administrative Rules showing that election officials could have received a copy of ObamaÂ’s original birth certificate without his permission. The DOH has said they canÂ’t release any records without ObamaÂ’s permission. But HRS 338-18(a)  allows state laws and DOH rules to govern the disclosure of vital records, and the current rules  -Chapter 8b, 2.5(A)(1)(f) -would allow any election officer transacting the placement of ObamaÂ’s name on the ballot to receive a certified copy."

And a link.
http://tinyurl.com/ya8hsxm

552

What i'm getting at is the law has been changed in the intervening years. If that is current law, it may not have been the existing law at the time. I've seen people reference the applicable law from that time period, but I don't any longer recall exactly what it said.

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:43 PM

Yeah..but we're talking about current law and the current situation...so if I am not missing your point.,..,it applies

553 Oh, by the way Drew, this is the same information that I asked Ace to forward to you over a month ago. I guess he figured it was all nonsense, and you shouldn't be bothered with it.



"1.       DOH Director Fukino illegally hid until Nov 2009 the DOH Administrative Rules showing that election officials could have received a copy of ObamaÂ’s original birth certificate without his permission. The DOH has said they canÂ’t release any records without ObamaÂ’s permission. But HRS 338-18(a)  allows state laws and DOH rules to govern the disclosure of vital records, and the current rules  -Chapter 8b, 2.5(A)(1)(f) -would allow any election officer transacting the placement of ObamaÂ’s name on the ballot to receive a certified copy."

And a link.
http://tinyurl.com/ya8hsxm

554

Excellent point. I am constantly pointing out that a "conspiracy" is not required. For some reason, the opposition always wants to insert a "conspiracy" into our arguments, then call us "conspiracy" nuts.

They wield "conspiracy" like the left wields "racist". It's just their all-purpose smear, without any connection to reality.  They like the way it sounds, though.

By the way, did you get my email?

Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 12:55 PM (eVJ7T)

I haven't checked that email account, yet. I'll check it out.

555

Yeah..but we're talking about current law and the current situation...so if I am not missing your point.,..,it applies

Posted by: beedubya at April 05, 2010 01:00 PM (AnTyA)

The funny thing is, NOTHING seems to apply to this guy. The laws don't apply, the Constitution doesn't apply, the normal expectations of a person running for office having to not have privacy regarding qualifying documents doesn't apply. Every rule is interpreted in his favor. The one's that CANNOT be interpreted in his favor are ignored, or changed, (as Hawaii changed their law regarding birth certificates just about the time Obama started campaigning, likewise their rules for accepting same.)

Ordinary and typical media scrutiny doesn't apply. Everyone has simply suspended their capacity for disbelief regarding everything this habitual and provable liar says about his origins and qualifications.

556 Posted by: beedubya at April 05, 2010 12:53 PM (AnTyA)


For you territory/state caveat to matter, you have to assume that Obama didn't have a birth certificate before 1982 (by which time he had lived and traveled abroad and was in college) or that it was changed after he was 21.

And again, this isn't a kooky conspiracy theory. You just have to be willing to believe multiple levels of things without any evidence whatsoever.

557

You do understand that people act in seeming unison without needing to be directed?

A-fucking-men

558

Somewhat OT, but I like the way that BHO tried to use wounded warriors as "boo shields".   I like the way it also didn't work, especially after he pulled out  the Sox cap. 

 

This guy is so thin-skinned, I can't wait to see his concession speech in '12. 

559 Hey Drew. Have you had a chance (or the slightest inclination) to look at the link I posted regarding what Hawaiian law (allegedly) says about providing election officials with original documents?

Seems pretty relevant to me. Would like to see your opinion on it.

560

For you territory/state caveat to matter, you have to assume that Obama didn't have a birth certificate before 1982 (by which time he had lived and traveled abroad and was in college) or that it was changed after he was 21.

Not necessarily. What then was his official status prior to 1982 then? ...and what are the details of his passport that no one seems to know about?

...interesting no?

561 Fark the birther business - its separate from the birth certificate/personal records issues - This has ALWAYS been a major issue with me - Obama may meet technical requirements of birth to be president, but America is not his home country or home culture. His formative years were spent not only abroad but with every expectation he would not permanently return to the US, and he was raised by people and mentored by people determined that America would lose its essential character and become some other kind of country. He is an emigre from foreign lands partly in fact and totally in spirit, even completely stipulating his birth on the island of Hawaii. He is exactly the sort of person the founders meant to disqualify for the presidency, even if the law expanded over time to include the likes of him as technically qualified to hold his office. Americans were fools to elect him, and they deserve what they get from him.

562  Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 05, 2010 12:55 PM (N49h9)

In comment 300- I wrote (in response to someone other than you)-these "great lengths to keep them sealed", what would they be? I know people always say he's spent millions! to hide this but never provide any proof of that.

In 318 you jump in to the conversation and write:

You don't remember the totally weird fact that, when he went to see his dying, racist old grandmother, he didn't spend much time with her but swung around the records department and made sure that his documents were safely tucked away?  DO you really not remember this?

Now you claim that something you put in the context of 'great lengths' isn't all that important after all.

Ok.

563

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:07 PM

Did Obama have a passport issued from one country..and then changed to reflect his US citizenship after 1982??

...hmmmmm

564 Take it up with progressoverpeac. He's the one who is claiming something nefarious happened on Obama's trip to Hawaii, not me.
Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 12:40 PM (9B5OK)


What you're doing, Drew, is twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to lend total credulity to a President who's long since proved himself to be the most calculating and dishonest lying bastard ever to hold the office. Even Rush couldn't believe this shit at the time, which you'd know if you clicked the link someone provided above; some of us, of course, remember this farce from back when it happened. Is Rush a birther nutbag?

You have zero argument for why it makes any sense for Obama to be concealing his birth records, his school records, his medical records, and damn near everything else about his bizarre and singularly un-American past. In order to defend Obama's obfuscations you attempt to compare his past to that of his four immediate predecessors, as though any of THEM had held dual citizenships, grown up on the other side of the world, had wives who publicly stated their husbands' "home countries" were somewhere in Africa, or generally had personal histories that were so murky and mysterious that even Tom Brokaw was admitting, five days before the election, that he had no idea who this guy was.

Your position, incredibly, amounts to the same as that of Obama himself: "I won. Shut up." You are flailing to find a reason, any reason, to declare a debate over when its very facts are being held under lock and key and you know as much about what they might reveal as the rest of us do. I'd be lying if I said I even begun to understand why you're going to such lengths to defend a serial liar and obfuscator who is employing every means necessary to destroy and reshape the country, other than that it seems to be more important to you to make a public show of demonstrating that "hey, I'm not with these crazies".

565 Posted by: Diogenes at April 05, 2010 01:12 PM (eVJ7T)

Yes.

I followed the email to State of Hawaii open records law. Lo and behold, it's not an ironclad right to all records. In fact, there's actually an obvious exception...

§92F-13 Government records; exceptions to general rule. This part shall not require disclosure of:

(1) Government records which, if disclosed, would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;

I haven't had time to track down all the statutes and regulations (nor am I going to) but my guess is birth certificates are covered by that exception. Which, you know is what the Director of Health and the Governor have said all along.

I've got actual work to do so enjoy discussing your various theories amongst yourselves.

566 Posted by: beedubya at April 05, 2010 01:16 PM (AnTyA)

So you have no proof of anything. One might say you were 'just asking questions'.

567 call out the militia

568 Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 05, 2010 01:17 PM (Ohzoo)

Right, I'm defending Obama here. That's exactly what I've done. You caught me.

I've posted more than a few anti-Obama posts right on this here blog but it's all been a cover so that every 3 months or so I could defend Obama in the comments. You caught me.

Jebus Christ. You really think an unwillingness to go down some crazy ass rabbit holes is the same as defending Obama, don't you?

569 Drew, you have actual work to do. Busy busy; chop-chop! Please leave us to enjoy discussing our crazy theories amongst ourselves.

570 So you have no proof of anything. One might say you were 'just asking questions'.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:21 PM (9B5OK

Fuck yeah I'm asking questions...and so should everyone else since Baracky could just release his birth certificate and put it all to bed....but he won't.

"Why not??" is a perfectly valid question.

Look...I don't know where the fuck he was born...neither does anyone else ...so to say this has all been put to bed is nonsense.

 There is a perfectly plausible set of events and circumstances where it is possible he does not meet all citizenship requirements..and he has the constitutional responsibility to offer proof as to his citizenship.so the birthers have every goddamned right in the world to demand that he live up to that.

yeah..it could also be possible that is just that there is some rather embarrssing information on his BC..

...but we don't know what the case is, do we?

 

571 Interestingly enough, just below the section you cited is this section.

§92F-14 Significant privacy interest; examples.

(a) Disclosure of a government record shall not constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy if the public interest in disclosure outweighs the privacy interests of the individual.

Gee, I dunno. That's a tough one. Obviously the need for 300 million Americans to know whether or not their President is legit under the jus soli theory, is no match for the interest of Obama not being embarrassed. 

But that's just how *I* see it.

572 The thought just occurred to me. Why couldn't a Redacted version of his birth certificate be released?

Why is the NAME of the Doctor who signed it a great matter of personal secrecy?

Actually, the question is rhetorical.  If Obama had released even a Redacted version which obscures embarrassing details, the Media would HAVE to look at it, and then they would HAVE to ask "Why are you hiding those parts?"

Releasing a bullshit computer printout was the ONLY way he could have avoided the embarrassing or disqualifying data.

573

I opened the barn door, bitches, and instead of closing the door so no more horses could get out y'all just arguing and shit.

 

What I really love is the "we be rational" gang up in here. They all like "cotdamn y'all so stupid you need to be smart like us" to the other fools who point out that the horses are running away.

 

It's gonna be funny when we commies put whatever 3rd World dictator we want and y'all can't do shit about it.

574

In 318 you jump in to the conversation and write:

dont remember the totally weird fact that, when he went to see his dying, racist old grandmother, he didnt

Now you claim that something you put in the context of 'great lengths' isn't all that important after all.

Ok.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 05, 2010 01:16 PM (9B5OK)

Yes.  I said that it was TOTALLY WEIRD, which it was.  Some would say that acting so weirdly in public is "great lengths" - which is what I was saying.  But it was insignificant to the main issue, as many of the weird acts that he does in going to great lengths to do whatever are.

But, to make it simple for you (once again) when he said that doctors love to pull tonsils and slice feet off, he was going to great lengths to sell his idiotic health scare, but those actual quotes were insignificant, in the context of the health scare debate, though they were illustrative of certain issues The Precedent has.

Come on, Drew.  This isn't rocket science.

575 Gabriel:

"So how have I misquoted you?"

Show me where I said that you misquoted me, becausae I didn't.  You're apparently misreading my comment.  And misreading my headline, or at least implicitly projecting things onto it that I didn't say, which I was willing to not accuse you of, hence the fact that I instead inquired as to whether or not you were.

Still waiting for an answer to both questions posed in my initial.  A false accusation doesn't stand as an answer.

Look, this is all more amusing than concerning to me, I just wanted to be clear that I didn't say things that I felt you may have been implying that I was.

576 Malamutt is apparently correct about the Passport application. I've found the documents for the State Dept.'s response. They do indeed say that they cannot release that information, not that they don't have it.


That's how it's done people. When someone is right about something, just admit it.

577 The one issue I completely disagree with Ace on!!

578 The strongest argument against the "birfers" seems to be that Obama uses this against them in his super awesome political jujitsu. They ask questions, and he calls them racists. However, he could still call them racists, even if he came forward with the documents that he has spent at least a million to hide. This issue still wears away at his credibility, no matter how much the media ridicules the skeptics. Obama could make fun of the people who doubted his nationality indefinitely. It could be an ongoing SNL skit. But on January 21, 2009, his first day in office, he signed EO 13489, denying any release of any information about him. That's suspicious.

579 604

Was it documented that he visited any officials? I remember there was a mix of him paying his respects and also getting his pic taken topless on the beach. I was pretty cynical about the whole affair, but just wondered what I missed.

580 But on January 21, 2009, his first day in office, he signed EO 13489, denying any release of any information about him. That's suspicious.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 05, 2010 07:57 PM

What you fail to realize is that on 1873 the SCOTUS had already declared in John Q.P. vs. Arkus that "President", as taken in Article II, Section 3, does not mean "The President".

All rational non-conspiracy minded non-nutbagger non-birthers know that.



BTW, that was his first EO.

581 Also, nobody has said anything about 28 from Pecos Bill. Why not?

582 How the fuck do you dry your hair with shoes?

583 Was it documented that he visited any officials?

I haven't been able to find anything, but the press has left lots of important details out in their reporting.  I just remember hearing about it at the time and thinking how odd it all was.

I remember there was a mix of him paying his respects and also getting his pic taken topless on the beach. I was pretty cynical about the whole affair, but just wondered what I missed.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 05, 2010 08:02 PM (mHQ7T)

I think that was from the next trip, after the typical, racist granny had died. The sasquatch wasn't on the first trip, to see the dying old, typical, white, racist.

Also, nobody has said anything about 28 from Pecos Bill. Why not?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 05, 2010 08:23 PM (mHQ7T)

Yeah, I saw that article a long time ago.  Very few people ever talk about it and everyone writes it off as merely having been "incorrect", though I don't think anyone objected to it when it was written.  There are so many of these interesting little tidbits that I usually skip it, but I'm glad that Pecos Bill put it up.  It is very interesting.

584

FLOTUS addresses the crowd at the annual White House egg roll, and says:

“Is this not a beautiful day?! Let’s all thank Mother Nature, yeah!”, then leads the crowd in applause.

The video is widely available on the web.

At an EASTER celebration, she can’t at least thank GOD instead of “Mother Nature”??

They do not attend church, they do not send their children to Sunday School or religious instruction, they spent 20 years in J. Wright’s hater church, and she thanks “Mother Nature” on EASTER morning!!!
They are a sickening First Couple.

585 That bitch makes me absolutely sick. If she doesn't want to offend anyone, she should just say it's nice weather. Instead, she goes out of her way to insult Christians as she stages a photo op on their holiday. Whore.

586 YA ALL DONE NOW? 4 7 1 4 7 1 Do not get played into the cul-de-sac FOCUS YA BASTARDS.....FOCUS!!!!!!

587 ....Wha'd I miss?

588 Sorry ACE, Instead of venting yer spleens here, why don't ya all do something PRODUCTIVE, like spending some money on bullets and going to the range and improving your 4 double 0 yard groupings? Sites like these will NOT save the Union! YOUR VOTE saves the Union! and after that....well your AIM saves the Union. If you know not the firearm...time to know for the sake of the Union. any questions?

589

thank you dear ..

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590 "The only way current Hawaii law allows" - no, Barack Obama used 1.7 million taxpayer dollars to hide the actual BIRTH CERTIFICATE, not certificate of live birth, which is a meaningless document [not to mention a member member of Homeland Security, Jay McKinnon, FORGED a birth certificate for B. Hussein; this is well documented]. 
I do not doubt he was born in Hawaii, why would a woman leave the US to go to a 3rd world country to give birth... I question if B. Hussein is not actually a dual citizen; his mother's age is the question. Dual citizenship at birth - If bringing up the notion of legal elections, this would invalidate a legitimate, presidential, election, would it not?

591

Look, this is all more amusing than concerning to me, I just wanted to be clear that I didn't say things that I felt you may have been implying that I was.

Pat, I hereby stipulate that you didn't say things that you felt I may have implied that you did. All I'm saying is that you said the First Lady is blaming the spread of AIDS on homophobia.

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