1 The important thing is, will David Brooks be a fan?

2 Looks pretty ghey.

3 MMA is really cool.  It strikes me as taking more skill than boxing.  Which isn't a slam on boxing, I dig that too. 

4 I watch it a lot. I agree that MMA is going to get a lot bigger.

5 I love it.

6 don't understand it....don't want to understand it...

7
It'll get big when Juggy McTarballs mentions being a fan.  Then the latte sipping left will be all over it.  Until then, it will be looked upon as another sport the knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing tea baggers watch.

8 Yeah, well, we'll see if survives next week's episode of "Bullshit!": Martial Arts.

9 2 Looks pretty ghey.

The grappling would, yes.

There was this Pay-Per-View event I saw once (I remember it because it was the first event my step-father bought from the TV) - the Ultimate Fighting Championship 6.

The last two fighters to bout in the end were "Tank" Abbot and some Russian dude who was an expert in Sambo (?), some submission technqiue.  The fight was about 25 minutes.  "Tank", as his name implieds, was a straight street-brawler.  He got a good hits on the Russian, but in the end, after about 5 minutes grappling with "Tank" on the ground, the Russian won by submission.  That ending did look ghey, with the fighter's legs wrapped up around each other..

10 On the other hand, when you get knocked to the ground in MMA, the fight does not necessarily stop, and your opponent can pummel you... You can hit a guy on the ground but it's not possible to hit him nearly as hard as when you're standing. On the ground, the punch is mostly arm power. Standing, you have the arm, both legs - the whole body contributing. You get more bleeding in MMA but a LOT less brain damage. I don't like it very much because I can't tell what's going on when they start grappling. Until recently I was confused by boxing but I just noticed that I can watch it at 1/4th speed (got a DVR recently) and now I can see what's going on.

11 >>>Yeah, well, we'll see if survives next week's episode of "Bullshit!": Martial Arts. Are they really doing a show on that? Anyway, it will survive it; it's real.

12 Yeah, tell Brock Lesnar it looks ghey.

13 I like movie violence as much as the next guy.I'll watch a good boxing match(they don't happen much anymore,especially heavy weights) but this just doesn't interest me.

14 "12 Yeah, tell Brock Lesnar it looks ghey." Ha! I don't really like him because he's a lousy sport, but he's damn sure an intimidating dude.

15

I dig the MMA. These people are technically skillful and are in great physical condition..

...and they do more than run around for 90 minutes and maybe get to kick a ball.

Strikers are making a big comeback since you can win..or at least do some damage.. with a single strike. The grapplers, most notably the jiu jitsu experts, had some dominance for a while because the traditional strikers had not experienced this type  of fighting before and did not know how to handle them.

Now all the fighters have a ground game. Most know proper defensive maneuvers

Kicks are devestating...but without a good striking ability, you can't set them up properly

16 I found the grappling boring at first and wanted more striking but, 1, I do see a lot more striking now, and 2, I find the grappling a lot more interesting now that I get the basics of what is going on in the scrum. Also, this is kind of minor, but Joe Rogan does the color commentary for UFC, and he is an extremely good broadcaster. He knows what he's talking about, and he projects excitement. He's not faking it, I don't think. When his voice rises in excitement, he really is excited, and it does get me into it. His role is needed (for me) to tell me when someone is close to getting a submission hold on someone. Knockouts... well, dude, I know what a knockout looks like. But Rogan is my guy for saying stuff like "HE'S ALMOST GOT THE TRIANGLE, HE'S ALMOST GOT THE TRIANGLE!!!!" I never see that coming. I don't even really know what a triangle is. But I know it's a bad thing for the guy in it.

17 My kid has a friend in his unit teaching him Hmong martial arts.  The friend was born in Wisconsin, but his parents immigrated from Vietnam. 

18 steevy, not to be all pushy-push, but why don't you give it a shot? I tell's ya, it's better than boxing.

19

Boxing = checkers

MMA = chess

I love it. It's the only sport I watch anymore.UFC president,  Dana White, can be an insufferable prick, but he's the perfect man to take this sport bigtime. Why? Because he's a huge fan of the game and he understands and acts upon what the fans want.

But what has made UFC so successful is how well they've aligned fighter incentives with fan interests. The UFC is run with an iron fist. But get this - no promoters.

That means you fight who they say you fight or get the fuck out.

Which means the fans get the fights they want most of the time.

White also rewards fighters for performance. The winner gets twice the purse of the loser. And there are bonuses for fight of the night, knockout of the night, and submission of the night.

No overpaid millionare athletes dogging it. Everyone comes to fight and put on a show. If you don't come ready, you get your ass kicked AND you won' t be asked back.

Honestly, I think America is ready for this sport. They want something real and this is as real as it gets in competitive sports. I have a mountain of respect for the skill and heart these fighters show. Some are thugs, but a lot - most maybe - are intelligent, decent guys.

I like to think of myself as a relatively tough guy and have been in more than a few scraps in my time, but I'd never be able to do what these fighters do because I don't have that kind of mental toughness. They're just a different breed.

 

 

 

20 You'll know it's real when they make a reality series out of it. Best new Reality series? Top Shot!!11!1 Longbows AND crossbows, brutha.

21 #14  Ha! I don't really like him because he's a lousy sport, but he's damn sure an intimidating dude.

The good wrestlers are quite intimidating.  They work out every damn day, although there were some (like Mankind) who look pudgy despite their daily exercise regime. 

22 Funny you should mention the heart these fighters show, Warden:

http://wong.to/15hso

23 Uhm, yeah.  Male moron post?.......

Me, I'm watching Transformers on TNT.

24 It's a girly sentiment but I do like when they hug it out after 25 minutes of serious physical combat.

25 I have a date with a muscle relaxer.  Later, morons.

26

THIS is the baddest man on the planet

..he makes Brock Lesnar look like a total homo

27 19 I don't know,something about it is off putting.They remind me of my short career as a bouncer,in a bad way.

28

 Maybe they need a one-second pause rule -- ref stops the advancing fighter for one second -- to check to see if the guy on the mat has just been knocked down or is, in fact, out.

Shorten the standing count to, like, three?  So if you don't hop right back up, it's over?  Seems like it might protect the injured fighter more and cut back on the flurry of cheap shots you mention. 

29 See ya, Mrs. D'oh.

25 It's a girly sentiment but I do like when they hug it out after 25 minutes of serious physical combat.

Me too.  Shows a bond between the fighters, and that there's no hard feelings even though they spend 25 minutes beating the crap out of each other.

30 Boxing is like soccer and MMA is like football.

31

Heh, I had a buddy who was in one of the first UFCs - whichever one was in Charlotte, NC.  He didn't even make it to the tv rounds, and he wasn't exactly a bad martial artist. 

The interesting thing, at least with the unregulated early stuff, was that is was very clear which styles were actually useful for fighting, and which were basically just a form of exercise.

32
This post would have been perfect...24 months ago.

33 I have to wonder how long boxing maintains its status as the top fighting sport. Does it still cling to that title now? Maybe... if it does, not for long. The fact is, MMA is just so much more interesting than boxing. There are so many more ways to win (and lose) a fight.

Boxing has been mismanaged as a business.  The fights on TV are nobody vs. nobody, usually, and to see the real fighters you gotta shell out the big bucks for a seat at ringside.  But that means nobody under thirty can afford to be a fan, so after a few decades it just falls apart.

Baseball has the same problem, in part.  The newer stadiums have so many box seats you can't afford to watch the game unless there's no blackout.

34 >>>> So if you don't hop right back up, it's over? Not three seconds. The reason they don't stop it at all is because they want to preserve the attacker's advantage -- he knocked the guy down, he should have the advantage of that. And that includes stuff like the attacker wanting to go to the ground and grapple with him. So the pause really cannot be anything like three seconds. One second is already a massive concession as it spoils the attacker's advantage. But, in some cases, it does seem kind of clear that the guy did not just get knocked down, but in fact got his lights turned off. I throw out "one second" but I'm really thinking half a second, just enough time to look at the guy on the ground's eyes and see if they're focused.

35

I don't know if this is true or not, but steve_in_hb, who tells me interesting stuff, even if it's not true, says that the MMA may actually be, despite the bloodiness of it, less brutal than boxing.

I do think its less brutal.  The best way to win is not always to give your opponent a concussion.  There are a lot more ways to win that doesn't require a knockout punch.  I also believe MMA in the US at least has had only one death in officially sanctioned fights.  Its a statistically lower accidental death rate than boxing.

36

It's real to me damn it!

 

We have this discussion 3 times a week at my work.

37 >>>This post would have been perfect...24 months ago. Actually I think it's a repeat, in almost all details, of a post I did write 24 months ago. But since then I've learned... well, almost nothing.

38 Boxing is interesting not for what it allows but for what it constrains the fighters from doing.It really is the closest thing you will see to a "fair fight",which is what a sport should be.

39 >>>The best way to win is not always to give your opponent a concussion. There are a lot more ways to win that doesn't require a knockout punch. Right, that too. But I mean, even as far as knockouts, it might be less brutal.

40 And really can you imagine any boxer coming out in Canada, doing the Apollo Creed Walk-in

41

And my recent viewing seems to indicate that striking has come back to pull even with grappling.

That's surprising.  I'd think it would be over quickly if a wrestler, a judo guy or a Brazilian jujitsu guy got hold of you.  They can turn you into a pretzel.  The key with them is keeping them off you with strikes, but how can you keep them from grabbing something like a wrist?  You'd have to be really aware and really quick.

42

Also, this is kind of minor, but Joe Rogan does the color commentary for UFC, and he is an extremely good broadcaster. He knows what he's talking about, and he projects excitement. He's not faking it, I don't think

Rogan is a pretty good martial artist in his own right. He knows the game because he trains with these guys.

You should check out his podcast. The guy is hilariously uncensored. He just goes off on these tangents, too, that sometimes go in bizarre places. But you can tell he genuinely loves MMA.

43 Boxing is great, and re: damage argument, a lot of the lighter weights are not knockouts or even knockdowns.  And the heavies, like a QB taking that 1-too-many concussions, might have the biggest problems because they fight too long (age/fights) 

In short, MMA can be awesome, but boxing is too.  No need, imo to knock one just to complement the other, which seems to the standard for both groups of fans.

44 >>>Boxing is interesting not for what it allows but for what it constrains the fighters from doing.It really is the closest thing you will see to a "fair fight",which is what a sport should be. I think that is 100% wrong. Boxing forces a very artificial form of fighting on the competitors. Not saying that that makes it bad -- all sports are artificial and create a specific contest based on rules -- but I don't see why grappling shouldn't be permitted in a fight.

45 Boxing used to be a popular sport in universities,especially the military academies.Noone was aware of the effect of even rather limited numbers of blows to the head.Though it was understood that very frequent fighters became "punch drunk".

46 21 You'll know it's real when they make a reality series out of it.

Don't worry, they have. It's called the Ultimate Fighter, and they're just finishing up the most recent season (#11). Winner gets a contract with the UFC. It airs on Spike.

Ace, you have officially made this my favorite blog ever. 

47

That's surprising.  I'd think it would be over quickly if a wrestler, a judo guy or a Brazilian jujitsu guy got hold of you. 

Even the strikers now have pretty good ground skills. You can defend against a great wrestler or ju-jitsu guy by having awesome takedown defense and being good at defending submissions and scrambling back up to your feet where you want to be.

 

48

 "You'll know it's real when they make a reality series out of it."

Already done been did, The Ultimate Fighter on Spike.

49 Yeah, good series. An ex-gf of mine got into UFC, slightly, based on that show.

50 MMA is the sport of dbags and wannabe tough guys

51

The reason they don't stop it at all is because they want to preserve the attacker's advantage -- he knocked the guy down, he should have the advantage of that.

Oh, that's cool.  Keepin' it real, as it were.

52 "25 It's a girly sentiment but I do like when they hug it out after 25 minutes of serious physical combat. " That's one of the things I really like about MMA. The overwhelming majority of fighters are good sports about it. It seems impossible the way they pound the shit out of each other and then shake hands and hug after the bell.

53 46 Boxing is to a real fight as fencing is to a real sword fight.Of course it is artificial.The Romans had boxing and all in wrestling that could be to the death,lead gloves and neck breaking allowed but it had rules even than.

54 I'll watch a good boxing match(they don't happen much anymore,especially heavy weights)

Yeah, the decline of boxing is because of the lack of great bouts, imho.  Since MMA is so compelling, once the top spot is gone, I don't know how boxing can get it back.

55 >>>>Even the strikers now have pretty good ground skills. You can defend against a great wrestler or ju-jitsu guy by having awesome takedown defense and being good at defending submissions and scrambling back up to your feet where you want to be. Yeah, someone up thread was saying something similar, that in the early years the strikers just didn't have nearly enough training and experience with grappling or just "get offa me" grapple defense. Now everyone trains hard in all disciplines so strikers are no longer at the mercy of grapplers in deciding whether to be on their feet or on their back.

56 54 There is no real malice behind it generally,now if one guy screwed the others wife you'd see a real fight.

57

My wife even sits through UFC events with me. She digs the storylines, understands the basics, and loves the way the fighters look in tight shorts.

But she still covers her eyes when it gets bloddy.

God bless my wife.

58 Ok, is there any raw data to compare boxing and MMA popularity? TV revenue, tv ratings, etc. MMA seems to get more tv exposue, but I think the big boxing events still dwarf MMA when it comes to pay per view revenue. But I'm not sure.

It's grown a lot this decade, but it takes a long time to change sports culture. I think of the soccer people who point to the sold-out MLS games in Toronto and Seattle -- or the quite decent TV ratings for the World Cup so far. MLS has grown impressively over the past 5 years... even in the face of a nasty recession (which hasn't been that  nasty for highly educated upper income whites who are the MLS fanbase at this point) --- but it still is tiny compared to the NHL which often is called a niche sport in America.

59 >>>You can hit a guy on the ground but it's not possible to hit him nearly as hard as when you're standing. On the ground, the punch is mostly arm power. Maybe, but it's still no fun watching an unconscious man's head get bounced off the ground like a basketball.

60 Oh, I just love MMA.

61

despite the bloodiness of it, less brutal than boxing.

I don't think it's any more bloody than boxing. There are techniques to cause more gradual wearing down of the opponent..leg kicks, grappling, (which expends a huge amount of energy if you're on the defensive), etc..rather than go for a big knockout blow..

..it's impressive to see the jiu jitsiu submissions..soemtimes it's more dramatic than a knockout..

..and it doesn't cause brain damage and make you retarded

62 Also,the bigger it gets the more money will ruin it.

63 MMA is the sport of dbags and wannabe tough guys

Ever met any of them?  I met a lot of fighters when I lived in Denver (trained with a few), and I gotta say most of them were really very nice people.  Granted, the sport does have it's douchenozzles, but everyone I've met personally has been awesome. 

64 >>>But she still covers her eyes when it gets bloddy. yeah, I tried with a girl, tried to sell her on it, then one guy got a nasty bleeding cut over the eye and they were down on the mat and the floor was crimson with blood and... Yeah, no sale. Had that not happened, at least not so early in her sampling, who knows.

65

That's one of the things I really like about MMA. The overwhelming majority of fighters are good sports about it. It seems impossible the way they pound the shit out of each other and then shake hands and hug after the bell.

Posted by: Bugler at June 18, 2010 09:40 PM (VXBR1)

That is actually causing a few issues though.  There are some pretty high level fighters that have said they won't fight eachother because they are friends and train together.

66

51 Yeah, good series. An ex-gf of mine got into UFC, slightly, based on that show

What's her record??

67 >>>I don't think it's any more bloody than boxing. I'm pretty sure it is. For one thing, the rounds are longer, so if you get a good blood flow early, there's going to be five minutes of blood on the mat.

68 I think grapplers will always have an advantage, as striking tends to put you significant disadvantage defensively.  A good grappler, who develops some effective strikes and blocks, will be hard to beat.  It will be interesting to see new styles and blends develop.

69

 don't think it's any more bloody than boxing.

It definitely is. Mostly because elbows are allowed. Some of those ground and pound fighters slice up their opponents pretty good.

70 >>>What's her record?? 6-5. That's another sort of good thing -- the champions all have.... *losses.* And sometimes more than a handful.

71 Favorite Lloyd Dobler quote:

"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that."

72

 I think grapplers will always have an advantage, as striking tends to put you significant disadvantage defensively

This isn't so much true anymore, as all fighters train across different styles/disciplines.

Wrestlers still do very well in MMA, but I think it's mostly because that kind of strength/cardio training and kinetic intelligence translates well to MMA. Plus wrestlers are mentally tough ... and tend to be a little crazy.

73 I'm a big MMA fan - did  tae kwon do in high school and judo in college (neither very well, but enough to understand & appreciate what goes on).   These guys are the real thing.  Even though I lost a lot (o.k., more than I won), there are few things that compare with the nervousness I experienced before a competition.

As for the striking vs. grappler issue, it seems to me like the sport seems to favor wrestlers lately - being able to dump someone on their butt and control them allows them to dictate where the fight ends up, and wrestlers seem to pick up striking better than strikers pick up wrestling (with a few exceptions like St. Pierre).

As for fight stoppages on knockdowns, the refs seem to do a good job of ending things pretty quickly when a fighter "is no longer able to intelligently defend himself" (their phrase).

74 Beware the Flying Knee and the Monkey Stealing Peaches.

75 I specialize in Brazilian tickle-fu.

76 I prefer Crouching Tiger, Hidden Orange Guy.

77

I prefer wrestling other men.  Instead of hitting them.

78 As you know, my friends, I'm up for reelection, so I'd like to remind you all that years ago, when this bloodsport was taking its first baby steps toward economic viability in America, I sent a letter to the governors of all fifty states demanding that they ban "human cockfighting" before it could spread from its early niche audience of white trash, lawfully resident Mexicans, and gooks, to real Americans, like lawyers, and trust-fund fag hags. Thank you.

79
If you've never done grappling you don't have a clue how devastating it is to run into someone who knows what they're doing. There is no way to explain it - the bandwidth to transfer the information is far to small. Thirty seconds with a Judo black belt or an MMA guy would tell most people more than they would ever want to learn about the subject..

With no rules - the graplers dominate - the boxing commissions that took over control of MMA after the early days set the rules to give the strikers a chance. That makes for a better show.

There is no question that the gloves in boxing result in terrible brain damage.  In the bare knuckles days "punch drunk" was pretty much unknown. The gloves transfer more momentum to the head than a bare fist. Boxing Gloves are a classic example of something that looks like a good idea when you first examine it, but which turns out to be a terrible idea in practice..

80 Every Guy Loves the Ball Hog!

81

For one thing, the rounds are longer, so if you get a good blood flow early, there's going to be five minutes of blood on the mat.

They won't stop it for bleeding?  Seems like a biohazard freakout.  It would bother me from that standpoint.

82

With no rules - the graplers dominate - the boxing commissions that took over control of MMA after the early days set the rules to give the strikers a chance. That makes for a better show.

What rules?

83

They won't stop it for bleeding?

Not for the first few pints, anyway

84

_{classic example of something that looks like a good idea when you first examine it, but which turns out to be a terrible idea in practice..}

They work better at fighting Bulimia.

85 52 MMA is the sport of dbags and wannabe tough guys

Posted by: pinche migra at June 18, 2010 09:39 PM (pEKxc)

No, no, I'm pretty sure people who survive in this sport are pretty genuine tough guys.

86 Heh.  I was thinking profuse bleeding, btw.  Not a little oozing cut type thing.

87

Posted by: John McCain at June 18, 2010 09:56 PM (x7Ao

To be fair McCain has come around on MMA.  At least he had when he was running for president.  Who knows what his views are now.

88 I'm what they call a grapplah. Once I grab the wrist, it's ovah. Who aaah yew, anyway?

Posted by: Bob Etheridge at June 18, 2010 09:51 PM

Hah!

89 52 MMA is the sport of dbags and wannabe tough guys

Posted by: pinche migra at June 18, 2010 09:39 PM (pEKxc)

No, no, I'm pretty sure people who survive in this sport are pretty genuine tough guys.

Posted by: Ace's liver at June 18, 2010 10:01 PM (XIXhw)

ehhhhh .... he probably means the fans.

Funny thing is, I watched a main event at a BW3 a couple of months ago and couldn't believe all the different types of people in there watching the fights.

I knew they were there specifically for the event because it was in a separate room. The rest of the place was running a baseball game.

I'm not kidding, there were a couple of old farts, some 40 yr old guy and his kids, a dorky looking twenty something couple, two single black women screaming at the top of their lungs (and apparently somewhat knowledgable about the fighers), a few hill billies, and some college kids.

No meatheads, though. Very surprising.

 

90 >>>I was thinking profuse bleeding, btw. Not a little oozing cut type thing. There is sometimes much more blood than you might want to see. It's not a frequent thing, but when a guy gets a good cut from an elbow or something, it can get messy. They close the cut between rounds but rounds are long and a cut is going to open up again.

91 89 Heh.  I was thinking profuse bleeding, btw.  Not a little oozing cut type thing.

Posted by: rdbrewer at June 18, 2010 10:01 PM (7eWcr)

They won't stop it for blood unless it hinders the fighter's vision.

There are matches where it looks like the guys showered in blood and Joe Rogan, the color guy, is screaming about how the rear naked choke should be easier to sink because they're lubricated with blood.

92 >>>If you've never done grappling you don't have a clue how devastating it is to run into someone who knows what they're doing. There is no way to explain it - the bandwidth to transfer the information is far to small When I was in second grade I knew a kid who took some jujitsu or something. He didn't hurt me or anything. But he had this simple trip move. He did it to me forty times in the three years I knew him. I eventually realized the basic mechanics of what he was doing, but I could not stop him. I never fought him, understand. He just did this to... do it. But it was frustrating. There was nothing I could do to stop myself from being put on my ass. Even when I kinda-sorta had a vague idea of the basic move. Anyway.

93 'rear naked choke' I'm werwy intweeged by this sport.

94

_{Joe Rogan is to MMA like:}

_{a, Tony Danza is to Boxing}

_{b. Barack Obama is to Ass Kicking}

_{c. Ace is to Hobo Hunting}

_{d. Will Folks is Sikh Mining}

95

whatever you do, don't go to stileproject dot com

it is extremely hardcore pornography. the video is cool but the site is a little creepy, at least parts of it are

96 heh, definitely c. I have a preference for the UFC not because I know the fighters better (or because they tend to be the top fighters) but because his commentary is good.

97 okay I'll swap out that video, I didn't love it anyway, and it is oooolllld.

98

There is sometimes much more blood than you might want to see.

It's not a frequent thing, but when a guy gets a good cut from an elbow or something, it can get messy.

They close the cut between rounds but rounds are long and a cut is going to open up again.

Posted by: ace at June 18, 2010 10:07 PM (66DVY)

You know what they say:  Nothing bleeds like a head wound

99 I'm the badest of all.

100 I wonder how Bruce Lee would d at this.He was a bit on the light side so grappling would not be his thing.He may be the father of modern mixed martial arts though.

101 Couple thoughts:
-Hot damn! Ace is getting into MMA.  MMA threads on the ONT? Now I gotta get a second beer fridge for Foster's Oilcans.
-The primacy of striking or grappling is always on a pendulum.  Quite frankly, I come down on the grappling side of the argument, and think that striking upticks in fighter popularity because to be a dominant grappler takes so much more time and quality training than becoming a superior striker (full disclosure: I came to MMA from a Judo/JiuJitsu background, so I'm definitely prejudiced).
-Don't besmirch the early days of MMA.  The first few UFCs were all tournament style instead of single card fights.  I would be interested to see how some of today's big MMA names would fare on a night when they had to donnybrook through three to five fights to get the belt instead of just one.  It would be interesting to see how much the fight strategies would change.  I'm guessing there would be a lot more grappling, as fighters wouldn't want to soak up that much damage knowing that they still had more fights to go.

A bit of trivia: the original UFCs were planned, coordinated, promoted, and executed by the Gracie Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu family.  So in a way, the fights were kind of fixed.  You only saw strikers going up against the scion of the Gracie family (Royce).  And Royce tore them up.  Word on the street from Huggy Bear, though, is that the Gracies didn't just want to promote BJJ.  They also knew that, good as he was, Royce wasn't going to be able to cut it against the top-tier Jiu-Jitsu competitors in Brazil when it was his turn to carry the family standard forward, so they found an alternate venue for his skills.  Not taking anything away from Royce, he was a doughty fighter in a tournament-style contest, and he dominated (despite the fact that at that time there were no UFC weight divisions, and he only weighed about 17 .  Still, you didn't see any fighters from, say, the NYC Judo club in those original UFCs.

102

When I was in second grade I knew a kid who took some jujitsu or something.

I hate wrestlers.  Swaggering asshole started a fight once.  I was knocking the crap out him until he got hold of my wrist.  Last thing I remember was sailing through the air.  Backward.  Some kind of suplex move or something.  Not the pro wrestling kind.  It was a lift up, fall backward, then twist type move.  Jerk.

103 WTF is that gay smiley-face thing on my post?  Dammit!!

104 103 I wonder how Bruce Lee would d at this.He was a bit on the light side so grappling would not be his thing.He may be the father of modern mixed martial arts though.

Posted by: steevy at June 18, 2010 10:25 PM (DrkZ9)

When the History Channel did their thing on Bruce Lee, they had MMA guys on it talking about him to.  They really did seem to see him as a father of it.  Since his fighting style was to combine aspects from various forms of martial arts, with the intention of beating any opponent not just fighting another person with the same style which is what traditional martial arts competitions are. 

105

 WTF is that gay smiley-face thing on my post?  Dammit!!

Heh. In a UFC thread.

Good thing you know judo and jiu-jitsu.

106

So in a way, the fights were kind of fixed.  You only saw strikers going up against the scion of the Gracie family (Royce).  And Royce tore them up.

You've gotta give Royce credit for beating Ken Shamrock, who outweighed him by about 50lbs AND was a damned good grappler/submission guy.

107 Lee's big thing was "this is what actually works in a real fight," right? So that makes sense.

108 Totally over-exposed crap now. I liked the old days of Tank Abbott. Now, reality tv programs of ghey fighters training on every other channel. Fights 20 times a week, Too much exposure and it became dull.

109 My favorite fighter is GSP. My friends like him and BJ Penn. I still don't understand half the moves, but I like watching. The bloodier the better.

Rich Franklin is also a favorite of mine.

110 Yahoo did a countdown of UFC 1 - 99 when UFC 100 was on the way.  They still have them all up here.  They have short articles about each of the events.

111

You can also get UFC main events by subscribing to Netflix. It doesn't take 'em long to put them to DVD.

The pay per views are pricey -- $45. I get sucked in every now and then and fork it over, sit on the couch with a 6 pack, and love life for 3 hours.

Or you can hit a sports bar. I've been doing that more lately.

112 I'm working on my take on this.

113 Chael Sonnen is running for State Rep in Oregon

He is also fighting for the middleweight championship against one of the best, if not the best fighter in MMA, Anderson Silva.

Here he is on the Mark Levin show. He gives great interviews.

114

ace, check out this webcast from Rogan.

The guy is hysterical. And I think he does most of these while high as a kite.

115

I'm telling you, if Fedor Emelianenko were to fight in the UFC, he'd have no competition.

I think he was built in a lab by Red Army sciencytists, or something

116 Wrestlers always win if the use a takedown and control the loser.

117

He is also fighting for themiddleweight championship against one of the best, if not the best fighter in MMA, Anderson Silva.

Too bad Silva's last couple of fights have just sucked.  His performance has been so lackluster and ridiculous that White walked out in disgust during the last fight, and has openly talked about cutting him.

Still wish they could get Fedor into the UFC.  But I think his Russian crony managers are almost afraid of putting him in there against higher level talent than he has been facing lately.

118 What are "cage fighters"?  Is that the same thing?

119

I also love Dana White. I know people hate him though. I love how on his twitter he writes back to everyone, just to say thanks for buying the ppv or to call them a fuckface if they talk shit, or whatever.

I think its kind of funny that the president of the company is a foul mouthed guy with a temper that isn't afraid to sling insults.  And the polite good natured upstanding acting guy is the fighter that wants to beat guys to a pulp.

120 Posted by: rdbrewer at June 18, 2010 11:00 PM (7eWcr) So far as I know, yeah. Others probably know a lot more about than I do, though.

121

Remember this?  Drag queen cage fighters beat up thugz?  I guess the guys in drag were dressed up for a party, IIRC.  And they happened to be cage fighters.  Vid starts with rowdy guys starting fights.  At about 1:10 they pick on the wrong people. Stick with it until the end.  They put a serious hurt on those guys.

So, that's why I asked about "cage fighters."

122 whoops, looks like Sonnen pulled out of his state senate race recently

123 Bonus: No corruption, or at least none that is known yet.

So it doesn't have refs making up fouls to deny points to one side then?

124

Anyone who steps into a ring, a cage, etc, with the knowledge that there is another man in there whose sole purpose over the next several minutes is to BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF YOU is a full-on superidiot.  Exactly zero exceptions to this rule.

125

So, that's why I asked about "cage fighters."

Yeah I think so.  I think its based on the UFC Octagon fighting ring being lined with a cage rather than boxing ring ropes.

126

Exactly zero exceptions to this rule.

Not if you're good.  If you're a gifted fighter, you have to compete.  I would think.

127 Yup. Another nice subject & commentary, Ace. The last boxers I liked a lot were Sweat Pea and Lennox. Rumor had it that Lennox is an accomplished MMA practicioner (have you ever heard that?). He retired in absolute style and grace. The last fight I recall was Klitschko, and Lennox was kicking his fucking ass yet got no props form anyfuckingbody. Boxing is dead to me. Lennox fucked up a couple of fights, but he was one of the greatest, period. BTW, I got to fight Matt Hamill. Strong dude. This was way before he got a lot of help with the best trainers in close to no holds barred fighting. His Grandpa was one hell of a guy. He asked me to teach Matt a lesson... so I did. He's no MMA superstar, but I like to think I introduced him to MMA. Frankly, I was pretty scared going into it. I wound up handling him more than just fine, thank you very much. Wouldn't try it now, I don't think. Or would I? I'd be able to rattle off some shit on the internet that no one will ever believe! Cuz truth is stranger than fiction and who the fuck would come up with having fucked up Matt Hamill because Matt's Grandpa set it up?

128 MMA, same shit, 5000 years later. Ok, heavy sarcasm, but MMA is just a contemporary term for what most Jujitsuka were doing for hundreds of years. I did Nihan-Ryu Jujitsu and when the contemporary precursor to what is now known as MMA became more publicized with the UFC back in the 90's, my entire Dojo was right at home. We were already fighting "mixed" but it was all part our style. Giving it a new name has some how Americanized it and re-popularized it. What a fucking nothing-burger to those of us who have been doing it forever.

129 Hey, BB: don't be a hater.

130 Time for moron fight club!

131

Giving it a new name has some how Americanized it and re-popularized it. What a fucking nothing-burger to those of us who have been doing it forever.

Posted by: UGrev at June 18, 2010 11:13 PM (862vz)

So what you have been doing is popular, people are interested in it, and going out and trying it, and you are acting pissed and/or dismissive about this fact, why exactly?

132 Time for moron fight club!

The fifty first rule of moron fight club, is, if challenged by a libbie, your manhood is automatically on the line.

133

I've seen a few roundhouse kicks, but I've never seen one to the head connect.

It's kind of a long kick that is easy to block and it puts you a bit open. That's kinda rare. It is too big (and to slow) of a move that leaves you wide open.

I've seen a few people throw them though, and every now and then you can get away with one because no one expects it, and seen a few people connect (usually to the gut).

Probably less rare than a flying knee to the head knockout.. seen a few of those. Specer Fisher finished a fight like that once.

As for striking and jiujitsu... Royce Graci use to own the place up with jiujitsu back when they were still fighting in tournaments. Nowadays, it's still HUGE. One of the most effective and oft-used fighting techniques (Along with generic kickboxing and Muay Thai for striking, and greco-roman grappling). It's not nearly as dominate though. In fact, the wrestlers have dominated a lot as of late and it was wrestlers like Matt Hughes who put an end to BJJ dominace.

In part, I think, because as the techniques of submission/catch wrestling like jiujitsu became more well known, people became versed in it and in countering it, so now that they know what to look for, even if it's not their thing offensively, they're defensively prepared to deal with it. Before it was something new.

Another part is, the caliber of wrestlers has gotten ALOT better. Back in the day you had a lot of karate and kungfu bigshots who weren't real fighters really. Real wrestlers, the best wrestlers in the world, started to get into MMA and the wrestling improved and wrestlers started to dominate.

The striking has also been getting a lot better. In terms of flat-out boxing... the best boxers in the world are not fighting MMA, they're fighting boxing. But the gap is closing as more people with real boxing skills go MMA and incorporate that into their fighting.

134

Hey, BB: don't be a hater.

I don't be a hater, I be a critic.

135

For an individual sport you cannot beat it. It's the purest and oldest sport around. No goofy ball to get into the way. Just a straight-up contest of wills.

136

 Time for moron fight club!

Ix-nay on the alking-tay about the oron-may ight-fay lub-cay.

137

Just a straight-up contest of wills.

Yeah, a piece of that guy's will just permanently fell off and flew into someone's popcorn.  It's an art.

138 Cracked had the top 8 "oh shit!" moments in MMA history.  Pretty funny stuff and links to the fights.

139 Cuz truth is stranger than fiction and who the fuck would come up with having fucked up Matt Hamill because Matt's Grandpa set it up?

Posted by: Pansy at June 18, 2010 11:10 PM (Epj2t)

I believe ya, brother..

..but Pansy???

140 Cracked has done quite a few MMA articles.  They also have one about the worst fights in MMA History.  One of them was a fight in Japan where I don't think either guy had actual contact with the other in the entire match.

141 A Dog Brothers type of happy fun time can be started anywhere. You could make it part of the pud HOA if you really tried.

142

Anyone who steps into a ring, a cage, etc, with the knowledge that there is another man in there whose sole purpose over the next several minutes is to BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF YOU is a full-on superidiot.  Exactly zero exceptions to this rule.

...prolly akickball soccer fan

143

But yeah... MMA shows that no fighting system is perfect. You have to use everything.

But it also shows that some fighting styles are much better at real fighting than others. Some are applicable and give you good tools for a real fight, if not everything. Others are pretty much artsy quasi-dance disciplines.

Like high level Tae-Kwan-Do. That shit is useless. Anything you get in TKD you will get in the first few years, at low level. That teaches you basically, basic kickboxing. Beyond that it's all useless fluff and flashy hollywood moves.

No kung-fu crap.

Karate is some place in the middle... it's real, and some people use it well - depending on the school of karate - but it's not the greatest.

In contrast, depending on how you want to fight, if I was going to take a class or send a kid to a class, I'd pick something like juijitsu, judo, greco-roman wrestling, muay thai, boxing.

144 @136. Honor, and respect perhaps. People didn't want to do it when it was called "Jujitsu".. but MMA sounds "cool-n'shit". I don't know, man. I've always been one to investigate and actually learn the history behind something. Had people done that, they would have quickly discovered that MMA is a fancy "Ka-chow" name for something that's been around for a LOOOOOOOOONG time. Why can't they just call it what it is? (rhetorical).. probably because the acronym is more easy to market and monetize. I totally get that, but I refuse to call it MMA just because it's fashionable. So, you go on calling it MMA.. I'll call it jujitsu.. we can sit and watch the same thing and have a good time all the same.

145

Anyone who steps into a ring, a cage, etc, with the knowledge that there is another man in there whose sole purpose over the next several minutes is to BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF YOU is a full-on superidiot.  Exactly zero exceptions to this rule.

Why? Are boxer's idiots? It's a sport. And a whole hell of a lot of young guys can vouch for the fact that fighting can be fun.

And they get payed big bucks. Mega bucks.

And some of those guys have good heads too. Quite a few of those guys in there could be working in IT or have accounting degrees. And a lot of them are just consumate atheletes who have excelled in other sports as well. A few Olympic medal winners even.

146

Posted by: UGrev at June 18, 2010 11:27 PM

It's not all jujitsu UGrev..they mix in some other martial arts *cough*

147

I'll call it jujitsu.. we can sit and watch the same thing and have a good time all the same.

Dude you're full of fucking shit.

MMA is not juijitsu.

Juijitsu is juijitsu. It is one fighting style, Japanese in origin. 1 style, with a long tradition back to the samurais.

MMA stands for Mixed Martial Arts.

That means it has a rule set that allows MIXED martial arts disciplines. Professional juijitsu competitions have rules that exclude the kind of fighting you'd see in a muay thai match. You have to fight juijitsu.

In MMA it's more anything goes, you can bring a lot of styles and techniques into the ring.

The idea that they've "renamed juijitsu" is just blatantly wrong.

148

Are boxer's idiots?

Yes.

And they get payed big bucks. Mega bucks.

So do prostitutes and actors.  Doesn't make them brainiacs.

A few Olympic medal winners even.

You can get one of those for SWEEPING ICE.  Wowwee.

...prolly akickball soccer fan

No, and evidently I'm a racist.

149 Uh, actually the Japanese spelling anglicized is "jujutsu."
It didn't get spelled jiu jitsu until Sato brought it to Brazil and started teaching the Gracies.

150 @151 your understanding is clearly that of early 1900's probably post 1950's understanding of Jujitsu.. go back.. back.. back.. 750A.D. and follow the lineage. It was an adaptive combat system then and if you find the right Jujitsu system now, you'll see what I mean. I do BJJ now and it's a fantastic ground fighting system, but my earlier system did it all, baby.. all.. it was the aggregate sum of martial arts and I've studied many. Somehow, I always came back to Jujitsu because it just had the entire system wrapped up into a nice little basket of total whoopass.

151

Dude you're full of fucking shit.

"I disagree," in other words.

152 @152.. yeah. I'm full of shit. you win.

153

There's also a lot of military veterans in MMA.

And 1 politician : Mirko Cro-Cop, former Croation special forces and police, served in the Croatian parliment, I think while he was fighting.

154

I do BJJ now

Posted by: UGrev at June 18, 2010 11:27 PM

I'll bet you do..I'll bet you do

155 Thanks for the great post, Ace!  I have wrestled, MCMAP'ed and been in more than a handful of scrapes, but when I started training jiu-jitsu it was a whole new world of pain. JJ isn't especially useful outside a controlled environment, because you never know if your opponent has a friend waiting to boot-stomp you into a red puddle while you try to tighten that triangle, but for MMA I definitely gravitate towards the grapplers and BJJ specialists. 

rangerup.com is a site run by current and former military, and they feature a bunch of up-and-coming fighters.  buy some gear while you're over there - bunch of solid guys that deserve support. (no, they don't pay me - yet.)

if the blood and vicious hits turn you off, watch a light- or welter-weight fight - how much damage can a 155lb guy do, anyway?

S/F

156 beedubya at June 18, 2010 11:23 PM (AnTyA)

I run before I fight. I am a pansy. Fighting sucks. It'll give ya nightmares.

PS-never ever ever discredit that there "kung-fu crap" as stated above! For the love of pete, seriously! It is fucking brutal.

-Pansy

157 The sport has already had a great movie made about it: Redbelt.

158

And 1 politician : Mirko Cro-Cop, former Croation special forces and police, served in the Croatian parliment, I think while he was fighting.

Posted by: Entropy at June 18, 2010 11:41 PM (eL+YD)

I think he might still serve?

159 Vets: Brian Stann (USMC - 0311), Jorge Rivera (Army - Cav scout), Tim Kennedy (Army - SF)

Note: Kennedy won 5 of 6 fights, taking one fight the week after Ranger School on 3 weeks notice, and fighting the rest between deployments and training schools.
Marine pride compels me to support Stann, but there's something to be said about a guy that can dismantle you in CQB or drop you from 1000 meters.

160

750A.D. and follow the lineage

Well, shit. If you want to be a pedant, then MMA should be called Pankration (meaning "all powers"), which was the competitive combat featured in the Greek Olympics starting somewhere around 680 B.C.

161

Posted by: Pansy at June 18, 2010 11:43 PM

I dunno..the only martial arts I have seen as being effective outside of a controlled environment are muay thai..

...and to a lesser degree..akido

162

Yeah, the fighting world is full of people who think that their system (their art) is the end all be all of everything.

Including the Gracie family who taught BJJ.

Or that their system incorporates everything. Bruce Lee didn't try to claim he invented every single fighting technique in the world just because he might incorporate any of them into Jeet Kun Do.

You cannot, with any honesty or seriousness, claim british boxing or greco-roman wrestling, or Muay Thai street fighting has it's roots in a Japanese fighting system formalized for samurai who had to fight in armor.

In the same vein, no one "invented" an "adaptive combat system". All real combat fighting systems are adapative and will use -whatever works-.

I'll be the first to say that juijitsu is a serious and effective combat system, one of the best in the world, but give me a break. I don't give a rats ass if a bunch of jiujitsu guys were fighting MMA in 1970 you can't claim the concept of no-holds-barred is somehow fundementally jiujitsu.

In 700 AD EVERYONE fought MMA, no holds barred. Every single fighting system that was actually designed and developed in real combat (rather than as a exhibition sport) has  been like that. In combat for life and death you use whatever works.

163 Another excellent UFC article from Cracked.  Seanbaby is pretty damn funny.

164 Since some moron fight fans are descending into the "this is that and that is this" stage of every frikkin' martial arts thread ever engendered, try this little piece of boss mongo heresy:

Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same martial art; they are just different sports.

165

and to a lesser degree..akido aikido

FIFM

166 @159.. yeah, the interwebz, I get it. you want a fuckin medal for not being the first person to try to make himself feel better by trying to belittle someone else? That's a lefty tactic, brother.. don't be a dick.

167

Well, shit. If you want to be a pedant, then MMA should be called Pankration (meaning "all powers"), which was the competitive combat feature in the Greek Olympics starting somewhere around 680 B.C.

Exactly.

Dudes just boasting for his 'style', making wild ass claims.

He's humble, really. Like I said, the martial arts world is chock-full of guys who'll go 5 steps farther and say their system is the greatest in the world and beats everything and they can fight 5 guys at once with it and you only get tought the top maneuvers when you're a 15th level blackbelt because they're so damn lethal.

168 Reason MMA is usually safer than boxing: just three five-minute rounds (or five five-minute if title fight) of all kinds of stuff vs 12 three-minute rounds of punching someone almost entirely in either the head or belly organs.

Supposedly "the fastest growing sport in America" - growth rate (not overall acceptance) outpacing every sport, including the kings football and Nascar. Though from a 2009 quote: "the UFC beat Monday Night Football in the coveted 18-34 demographic ratings wise a couple of times last year."

Quote from SI from 2 years ago: ' "There is a compelling argument that MMA has already eclipsed boxing and will likely do the same to hockey by mid-2009," said Joseph Noel, a principal analyst for Emerging Growth Research, which issued a report claiming MMA passing the NBA in interest among suburban youth. '

169 beedubya at June 18, 2010 11:49 PM

Did you see the heritage in that video? We don't all have the lucky ass lottery winning privilege of learning any form of pentjak silat. We can, however, form our own little Dog Brothers thing on a local level.

170

Posted by: UGrev at June 18, 2010 11:51 PM (

You seemed a little heated (and sanctimonious)...just trying to bring some levity 

171

Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same martial art; they are just different sports

Uh.. I'd probably agree with you.

Modern Japanese police forces came up with Judo as a simplified modern version of jujitsu.

172

Yeah, I don't think any one style can lay claim to being the best.

I have some background in wrestling and judo, which always served me well in street fights when I was younger, but a well trained boxer could probably beat my ass if I couldn't find a way to get my hands on him.

Plus, some people are more suited for particular styles. Tall rangy guys tend to do well with jiu jitsu, kick boxing, mui tai. Stocky fireplugs like me usually make for better wrestlers.

 

173 "In 2009, the UFC broke its own records (set one year earlier) as the biggest pay-per-view franchise in history, putting on 13 pay–per-view events that grossed approximately $349 million. By comparison, boxing’s biggest year was 2007, at $255 million." - Yahoo Sports

174

This thread was a lot more fun when we discussing MMA fights and fighters..

..it's turning into a dick measuring contest

175 I have the biggest dick.

176 Entropy at June 18, 2010 11:58 PM

I'd say it's a little more than that.  If you look at the techniques in old school jujutsu, they were all pretty much lethal, and could only be practiced artificially.  Jigaro Kano made the techniques "safe" with some adjustments to placement, timing, and body position.
So a subset of the perennial martial arts arguments is:
Which is better, a guaranteed lethal technique that you've never done full force at the combat speed on a resisting opponent, or a safe technique that may not injure or kill, but you've done 10,000 times as hard as you can against a resisting opponent?
Basically, Kano introduced the concept of non-lethal sparring (randori) into jujutsu.

177 In my opinion the precusor to UFC was PKA / full contact karate. Many PKA fighters trained in other disciplines besides Karate. MMA was the next logical step.

178 171 @159.. yeah, the interwebz, I get it. you want a fuckin medal for not being the first person to try to make himself feel better by trying to belittle someone else? That's a lefty tactic, brother.. don't be a dick.

Posted by: UGrev at June 18, 2010 11:51 PM (862vz)

Um this is the AOS.  If you say anything that can be turned into some form of sexual innuendo for humorous effect its going to happen whether you like it or not.

179

I run before I fight. I am a pansy. Fighting sucks. It'll give ya nightmares

I grew up with 5 very large and quite possibly insane older brothers..

..running wasn't an option

We're all like best friends now though. A few years back we awere all out with our spouses for New Years eve..and a group of Middle Easterners decided they didn't like us and started shit..it ended up looking like one of those bar fights from the old westerns..bodies flying..chairs breaking mirrors, etc..

...and bystanders just started knocking the crap out of each other

It's hilarious now

180 Problem with your bonus, Ace: steroids in MMA aren't really under much regulation now from what I hear.  In other words, they're fair game.  Not good.

I do agree with everything else you said, though.

181 I once heard someone pose the question "what is the best martial art?" to a wise man who had more no-shit combat capability than anyone I've ever met.  His answer:
The one you love enough to do 2-3 hours a day, 3-5 days a week for the rest of your life.

182

Um this is the AOS.  If you say anything that can be turned into some form of sexual innuendo for humorous effect its going to happen whether you like it or not

Like in an earlier thread in a discussion about backyard BBQing..

..people were talking about smoking pork...and rubbing their meat

183 I've seen a few roundhouse kicks, but I've never seen one to the head connect.

Me either. I hear that that was the last thing that happened before I "woke up" and got my 30 year watch for being a loyal greeter at Wal-Mart!

184 Correction - Brian Stann was 0302, Infantry Officer.  Got out as a Captain, iirc

185 That was a good post.  The last time I looked at it was about 15 years ago.   Seems like they were trying to sell the barely legal aspect or something.  I'll check it out again.

186 181 I have the biggest dick.

Posted by: rdbrewer at June 19, 2010 12:03 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*GASP*HAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAH*WHEEZE*HAHAHAHA*STOP, JUST STOP*HAHAHA

 

187 @173, my point is not pimping "My style". my point is that Jujitsu of style xyz (pick one, I don't care ) is already a "Mixed Martial Art". Jujitsu was an Edo period term used to describe a wide array of techniques from many different manner of Ryu. And since I see the current MMA is heavily rooted in techniques that are prevalent in Jujitsu (obvious to me) since the the UFC and Joyce Gracie days.. oh well, it's jujitsu to me with some salt and pepper. But so long as it makes you feel "good" about applying a mob mentality to one guy on the interwebz..w/e..I was doing " MMA " already, drinking sake after 6 hour saturday classes and watching UFC with a bunch of fantastic friends. Why you feel the need to be a so belligerent is beyond me. I'm expressing my opinion. If you don't like it, that's fine, you don't have to. But what is this need or desire to put other people down? is it a character flaw? does it make you sleep better at night? do I need to read you a bed time story?

188 Oh, yeah?  Just ask your wife.

189 186 Problem with your bonus, Ace: steroids in MMA aren't really under much regulation now from what I hear.  In other words, they're fair game.  Not good.

I do agree with everything else you said, though.

Posted by: Riven Armor at June 19, 2010 12:07 AM (6CtOQ)

I think a lot of states do have it regulated.  I think that is part of what caused Afflictions final show to be cancelled.  Their headline fighter for it tested positive by California and they refused to give him his fighting license back because he had been banned for steroids before.  I also think a few years ago there were two fighters who had the fight disqualified for both of them because they both tested positive after the fight occured.  I think testing in the companies like Strikeforce and UFC is better than you've presented.  In Japan there is like no testing.  Because that's where that fighter ended up going again.

190

Problem with your bonus, Ace: steroids in MMA aren't really under much regulation now from what I hear.  In other words, they're fair game.  Not good

I don't know where you get that from. They test MMA fighters. They mostly pass.

Stephen Bonner get suspended for testing for steroids, and he had actually taken them (and stopped taking them) some time before the fight on a doctor's prescription for an injury.

191 Posted by: beedubya at June 19, 2010 12:06 AM

Sweet. I'll just hope y'all are around the next time I switch channels while walking by a palestinian peace rally. I guess my better hope is that I never come across that disgusting fucking shit again.

192 186 Problem with your bonus, Ace: steroids in MMA aren't really under much regulation now from what I hear.  In other words, they're fair game.  Not good.

The reason you only hear about steroid scandals in baseball is due to the tendon and ligament damage that steroid use causes.  If you've ever seen the vid of the man with the exploding biceps, you know what i'm talking about.

An MMA fighter that used steroids habitually (pretty much anything is safe once) would be the fighter that tore 3 ligaments the first time his opponent yanked a hell hook or knee bar.  It is sorta self-policing in that respect.

"yanked" heh.

193 My dick has its own dick. My dick's dick is bigger than your dick.

194 Looked it up it was Josh Barnett who was not allowed to fight that helped bring down the Affliction fights.

195 I wonder if Chuck Liddell will ever come back successfully. That guy was my favorite fighter. The dude was nigh indefeatable and a scarry son of a bitch, all up until he got knocked out once... and it's like he's never won a fight again.

196 201 I wonder if Chuck Liddell will ever come back successfully. That guy was my favorite fighter. The dude was nigh indefeatable and a scarry son of a bitch, all up until he got knocked out once... and it's like he's never won a fight again.

Posted by: Entropy at June 19, 2010 12:25 AM (eL+YD)

He just lost his fight last week too.  I think he might be done.  For whatever reason he just seems to get knocked out "too easily".

197 @201 Ahh...glass chin syndrome.  No known cure.  Not often fatal, except to your career.

In his heyday, one of the best.  Now, hanging out with Tito Ortiz.

198 I'm seeing valuation estimates of UFC around $1.2 billion or so -- and supposedly they've been offered something around that on a few occasions and have turned it down.

If true - and if they were an NFL team - that would put them as the 4th most valuable team knocking down the NY Giants and fitting just below the New England Patriots - using Forbes' 2009 valuations.

Though UFC's revenue is larger than any 1 NFL team. Profit margins are probably much higher too.

And of course UFC isn't a single team but basically the entire MMA field. $1.2 billion seems low to me...

199 How do you know it's not simply a new kind of pro wrestling?  How do you know the fighters don't already know who the winner of each fight is going to be?

200 Re: Chuck Liddell returning to fight in UFC. Saw Dana White on video saying he's definitely not fighting again in UFC. Dana could be setting him up for some theatrical return later I guess... but seemed pretty convincing. Said he will be involved in some kind of role somehow... he wasn't sure how...

201 206 Re: Chuck Liddell returning to fight in UFC. Saw Dana White on video saying he's definitely not fighting again in UFC. Dana could be setting him up for some theatrical return later I guess... but seemed pretty convincing. Said he will be involved in some kind of role somehow... he wasn't sure how...

Posted by: Hoss at June 19, 2010 12:38 AM (GC6PQ)

Yeah Dana said that about him on the fight before his last one too.  The thing with that though was Liddel worked his ass off getting back into shape, and also doing Dancing with the Stars.  And he really is a popular fighter, so White was willing to give him another chance because he didn't want him to be done either.  I think this time he might really be done.

202 Watch a ton of boxing, very little of the MMA.  To each his own, but couldn't disagree more with Ace on almost every point, including skill, action, or long term damage.  A clean fist blow knockout is better for you than being hit multiple times with padded gloves?  Really?  Back in the day they used to box with bare fists, why do you think they moved to wearing them?  Could it be safety?

Not saying these guys aren't tough, but MMA seems to be the sport for people who couldn't make it in boxing.  Seems like bloodsport to me, and I bet at some point the death toll will start to rise.

I will agree with Ace on the corruption part though.  Boxing is totally pathetic in that and in addition all the really good boxers dodge each other plus there is like a thousand belts, but that is the business side, for sport I'll take boxing.

203 How do you know it's not simply a new kind of pro wrestling?  How do you know the fighters don't already know who the winner of each fight is going to be?

Posted by: rdbrewer at June 19, 2010 12:38 AM (7eWcr)

Dude.

Watch a few fights. It ain't fake.

204 Re: 205: "How do you know it's not simply a new kind of pro wrestling?"

No tights.

I hear (haven't seen it since Jake was dropping his snake) that in WWE-type fake wrestling they sometimes have a fighter waiting under the ring to come out magically & flamboyantly instead of the long procession down the isle. But sometimes they are under there for hours - and one dude had to took a shit under there he was waiting so long.

That's not a sport. Or a very different kind of sport.

205 I love MMA. Having it featured in a story on my favorite conservative website (sorry HotAir) is like an unending orgasm.

206 As for the steroids thing, Sean Sherk got suspended from the UFC for testing positive.

He claimed he was innocent, but he sure looks like he juices.

I can't speak to how accurate or serious the testing is in the UFC. Honestly, I don't care.

207

Watch a few fights.  It ain't fake.

 

208

JJ isn't especially useful outside a controlled environment, because you never know if your opponent has a friend waiting to boot-stomp you into a red puddle while you try to tighten that triangle, but for MMA I definitely gravitate towards the grapplers and BJJ specialists. 

I wouldn't say jiujitsu would be worthless in a real fight. 1 on 1 it would be extremely effective. Against more than one opponent.. you're probably boned anyway. But yeah, a triangle choke against multiple opponents wouldn't work very well. But an arm bar can break a dudes arm much quicker and you can move along. And a lot of moves in real combat jiujitsu you won't see in MMA because they're flat out lethal, like flection moves on people's necks.

Muay Thai would be great for real street fighting because that's what it is. Probably your best bet against multiple people to boot. It makes sense if you look at what they were developed for.

Jujitsu was created by samurais who fought on the battle field. It was meant to be deadly. But the samurais wore armor. Striking a guy wearing armor isn't very effective. So jujitsu developed a lot of grappling moves that apply leverage to break bones, dislocate joints, or strangle opponents that work even they're wearing armor. And because of the leverage factor, they work against bigger stronger opponents as well as against armored foes. And moreso then wrestling judo-type moves will alow you to toss about heavier people with the same principles.

Muay Thai is Thai street fighting, straight up. The style was developed by thugs in actual street brawls in a very lawless and violent place where gang fighting is common.

So I would say, if you're in an alley and you get mugged by 2 guys, Muay Thai is the fighting system that was specifically developed for use in situations most like the one you are in (exactly like what you are in).

But Muay Thai is also relatively more conventional, and jiujitsu is still a bit out of left field. As popular as the UFC has made it, most people understand the physics behind a knee hitting your face very well, and a tough guy is going to try to counter. But you average thug will not see that crazy japanese shit coming, or know how to respond to it.

209 Don't watch it. Joe Rogan. Enough said?
And yes Joe Rogan really is exited and knows what he's talking about.
That's not the problem. The problem is he's an annoying, unfunny asshole but I do like his take down of Carlos Mencia. Joe Rogan is to comedy what Jeremy Piven is to acting.

210

He claimed he was innocent, but he sure looks like he juices.

Heh. His nickname is "the muscle shark" after all.

211

Rocks, Rogan doesn't really do comedy in UFC announcing. He's a pretty straight announcer.

I guess he's supposed to be the 'color' guy, alright, but in fact the dude is the technical guy who actually knows what's going on. Especially if they don't have a fighter guest-announcing with them. The other dude is far less knowledgable and winds up telling all the goofy quips.

And he's actually quite good at it. He really does announce the fights very well.

212 @Guy Fawkes "Back in the day they used to box with bare fists, why do you think they moved to wearing them?  Could it be safety?"

Safety for the puncher, not the punchee. Big padded gloves help your hands more than they help a struck head which will rattle its brain in the skull either way.

Re: death tolls. There have been zero deaths from UFC fights - and from any major MMA that I know of. Boxing, you can't say that.

Re: skill. I think it would be hard to argue that it takes less skill to be a world champ in stand-up striking (including boxing) as well as being a champ in strikes with your feet, as well as wrestling, as well as ground game strikes and submissions (jujitsu etc) - as well as defending against all those types of attacks.

213 Trickling through every comment now. Joe Rogan is the shit. The best commentator for fighting since Sean O'Grady. Always has a good word for the loser. Always a gentleman. Always watches his fuckin language. Maybe better than O'Grady. I'd love to see him demonstrate his fighting ability. O'Grady was a class act and a bad ass. All at the same time. It can be done. Joe does a great job of that now. BTW- the worst way to get knocked out is via body blow/wind getting knocked out of you. Also, I miss Lennox. He was fuckin awesome. Some of that shit was brutal and hard to watch. Your commentary explains that. Like going to a rodeo and watching a guy die or get paralyzed. MMA is safer while being more ... what, brutal? Nah.... more exciting and primal while "safe", I guess. Punch drunk heroes are tragic.Like you kinda asked, the jury is still out on MMA, but it'll be okay. They changed the rules to where it won't end up in a Boom Boom Mancini tragedy. And a Gracie will never dominate the way they would if things were a little more hardcore. Shame, they created this beautiful fuckin thing.

214 Joe Rogan is alright by me. When a host gets in physical fights with jerk-off contestants like he did on Fear Factor (http://bit.ly/fFxMT) - that's entertainment.

215

The best commentator for fighting since Sean O'Grady.

Heh.  I went out with his sister.

216

Re: death tolls. There have been zero deaths from UFC fights - and from any major MMA that I know of. Boxing, you can't say that.

I believe that there has been one death in a sanctioned MMA match. 

217 Against more than one opponent.. you're probably boned anyway

Yeah. I think in a street fight, being on your feet is best.

My buddies and I once got into a huge brawl and I remember executing a beautiful hip throw and tossing some clown to the pavement, putting him in a headlock and then ramming my fist into his nose a few times.

Yay me. Not bad for being so drunk I could barely stand. I felt pretty badass, I must say.

Until his buddy soccer kicked my face and knocked me unconscious.

Yeah, that sucked. The upcoming Monday was my first day on a new job, fresh from college, and my face was a mess.

I think I only fought one more time after that. I'm lucky that kick didn't kill me. Apparently, I wasn't breathing for awhile.

Those guys were awfully tough. The whole lot of us got our asses kicked. I think there were 3 concussions among the 5 of us, mine included.

218 Safety for the puncher, not the punchee. Big padded gloves help your hands more than they help a struck head which will rattle its brain in the skull either way.

So you would rather have a kick to the head?  Not buying it.  There are not that many ex-fighters that are known to be punch drunk.  This is a myth.

Re: death tolls. There have been zero deaths from UFC fights - and from any major MMA that I know of. Boxing, you can't say that.

It will happen.  And then the feds will step in and enforce safety measures, like gloves.

Re: skill.  I understand these are 2 different sports, but if one of these athletes could make it to the top in boxing, I guarantee you thats where they would be because of the money.

Now fess up.  Its bloodsport, you watch it for the blood.

219 Here's an article on the guy that might have died from his MMA Fight

220

O'Grady was a badass.  One night Cosell was calling one of his matches.  Remember how Cosell would be putridly biased toward one boxer?  Teofilo Stevenson comes to mind.  Anyway, Cosell did the big buildup and life story documentary on O'Grady's opponent.  Then he said O'Grady was a club fighter. 

O'Grady destroyed that guy.  The guy he fought had no defense to body blows.  I guess O'Grady and his dad figured that out, because it was obviously his strategy.  He kept going back to it.  Smart guy.  Devastating boxer.  Cosell was really suprised.

221 buzzion - I trust you. It's why I had to qualify it with what I'd heard of. I'm no wikipedia...

... actually just did a wikipedia search "This was the third verified fatality in MMA."

Though first was 1998 unsanctioned fight in Ukraine possibly with a pre-existing medical condition.

2nd: "The second was the 2005 death of a 35-year old man only identified as Lee in South Korea. This took place in an unsanctioned event in a restaurant called Gimme Five."

222

It will happen.  And then the feds will step in and enforce safety measures, like gloves

They already wear gloves.  They are fingerless and padded but they are gloves.

Now fess up.  Its bloodsport, you watch it for the blood.

Its a pretty shitty bloodsport then  Because it doesn't seem to get bloody very often considering the number of fights going on.  Its like accusing someone who like actual wrestling (not pro-wrestling) of liking it for the broken limbs.

223 Yeah so First Fatality in a sanctioned MMA event.

224 Its like accusing someone who like actual wrestling (not pro-wrestling) of liking it for the broken limbs.

Come on, I wrestled, broken limbs are rare and the point is to pin the other dude.
But ok then, if you want, people watch MMA for the big puffy pillow fights.

225 "So you would rather have a kick to the head?  Not buying it.  There are not that many ex-fighters that are known to be punch drunk.  This is a myth."

You are right there. I definitely would rather take a punch to the head than a kick to the head any day. But I'd rather have 3 (or 5 if title) five minute rounds where I can use all kinds of attacks and defense, including taking a striker to the ground over being pummeled in the head and kidneys for 12 3 minute rounds.

Also, high kicks are rare because they are usually easier to defend against - they take longer to reach you than a jab or cross. And most fighters I'd guess have the juice to punch you for round after round, but high kicks all night long will fatigue even the best I would think.

226 Boxing is More Brutal Than Mixed Martial Arts

Imagine yourself as a professional boxer. Sweat pouring off of your body, pooling at your feet. The bell rings for the start of round 10, or waitÂ…was that just a ringing in your ears from the excessive brutal punishment your opponent has bestowed upon you? The sport of Boxing has been around for over a century, but its roots can be traced back thousands of years. It is accepted by mainstream society even though it produces an unsatisfying and unflattering amount of brain injuries and deaths.

Now imagine yourself as a Professional Mixed Martial Arts fighter. You are lying on your back being smothered by your opponent. Suddenly, your arm is contorted a direction it is not meant to go and you “tap out” or submit. Sure you are angry, and maybe you have a sore arm; but who has it worse, the boxer or the MMA fighter? The Boxer has it worse. Why? Boxing is more brutal than MMA because the strikes involved are directed mostly at the head, there is no standing 8 count in MMA, and the fights last substantially longer. Because most people know and understand the sport of boxing, I will briefly introduce Mixed Martial Arts through use of MMA’s most popular brand, the UFC.

The sport of Mixed Martial Arts fighting was brought to the American public eye in the year 1993 by the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting Championship. Since the beginning, it was less than tolerated, and nearly outlawed. When the UFC first started, it was advertised as no holds barred, or no rules. This was not the case, as there was no biting and no eye gouging allowed. Hair pulling, head butting, groin strikes and fish hooking (tearing someoneÂ’s cheek from the inside with your finger) were legal, but most fighters agreed against the use of them prior to the fights. There was also an absence of weight class. So you could have a 170 lbs. man fighting a 400 lbs. man, and no one would think twice about it. Because of the violent aura surrounding their events political figures publicly spoke out against, and certain states, like New York, even went as far as to ban the events entirely (Hakim 2-2).

Since there was so much negative energy towards the UFC, they took measures to try to revitalize their place as a sport and not a freak show. They added several rules and regulations to insure the safety of the fighters; the most important was adding weight classes. This made it so that you didnÂ’t have a 350 lbs. man fighting a 170 lbs. man.

Some of the other important rule changes were no downward elbow strikes using the point of the elbow. No clawing pinching or twisting flesh as well as no small joint manipulation i.e. breaking someoneÂ’s fingers. No more grabbing someoneÂ’s clavicle. No kicking or kneeing the head of a downed opponent, which is defined as someone with a knee or hand on the ground. No more stomping to a grounded opponent. No spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck or otherwise pile driver them. And they basically outlawed any unsportsmanlike conduct that results in injury to your opponent and abusive language in the ring. Some of the other MMA organizations allow soccer kicks to the head and knees to the head of a grounded opponent, but do not allow elbows to a grounded opponent (NJSAC).

It seemed though, even with all the rule changes put into place, that the naysayers had won the day. The UFC was going under faster than a sinking submarine. They tried many times to get their matches sanctioned through state athletic commissions, but failed to do so. Sanctioning would be athletic approval of MMA being a sport, gaining the support of a state approved committee.

After 8 years in business the UFC had hit its’ lowest point. Around the time of UFC 33 in 2001, on the brink of a complete shutdown when 3 men swooped in and essentially became the saviors of the UFC and MMA as we know it today. Dana White brought the UFC to his billionaire friends, Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta, proposing a buyout. But, even after the buyout, the situation did little to improve. They did, however, manage to get the UFC sanctioned in Nevada thanks to Lorenzo being a former member of the athletic commission there. Their idea to create a MMA based reality TV show called “The Ultimate Fighter” or “TUF” is the only reason the UFC is around to be talked about today.

Since the creation of TUF, the UFC has become a billion dollar empire. Diego Sanchez, a UFC fighter and TUF season 1 winner, refers to MMA as “A ballet of violence” in one of his post-fight interviews. The reality series helped the UFC and MMA become one of the most watched and talked about sports on the planet. One of the reasons MMA has gotten such a bad name is because of companies like Felony Fights. Felony Fights features bouts and techniques that would never be allowed in the UFC or any other state-sanctioned event. Some fights even include weapons, and also pit two fighters against one, or even two women versus a man (Wachter 6).

It’s because of those companies that MMA has been compared to boxing since its beginnings by people who know nothing about MMA simply because the use of gloves, effective striking, and because both of them are combat sports. Certain politicians, such as Senator John McCain, still to this day claim MMA is “Human Cockfighting” (Hakim 2-2). The sports are actually very different. I will touch base with these differences and why they are important later. First I want to talk a little about striking or punching.

Both MMA and Boxing use gloves to guard the fighterÂ’s hands, as well as lessen the damage from punches. MMA organizations use 4-6 ounce open finger gloves. These are significantly smaller than boxing gloves, which can be anywhere from 10 to 16 ounces which is agreed upon by the fighters prior to the fight. The 4-6 ounce glove obviously is not going to protect the opponentÂ’s beauty as much as a 10-12 ounce glove would. That being said, boxing gloves still have the ability to deal more damage due to the fact that all you will do in a boxing match is punch, not to mention a boxing glove is almost a pound in weight. This brings me to my next point, the types of strikes used on your opponent.

In offensive boxing, obviously you punch to do damage, thatÂ’s it. MMA is a combination of striking (punching, kicking, and knees), grappling (wrestling), and jiu-jitsu (submission fighting). Boxing is so much more dangerous because all of the punches thrown are to the upper body, mostly targeting the head. This can lead to a serious amount of brain trauma over an extended amount of time, where as in Mixed Martial Arts there are so many target areas, and so many ways to win/lose a match, that not all of the damage is focused to one area. This may result in a various amount of injuries that differ from boxing, but most are trivial. Certain organizations, like the UFC, allow elbows to the head of a grounded opponent which can cause a laceration, where as in most Japanese MMA organizations it is illegal. All MMA organizations allow kneeing and kicking your opponents while standing. Kneeing and kicking are obviously more powerful than a punch and often can turn the tide of a fight, yet they rarely are ever the reason a fighter is knocked out.

As I mentioned before, the UFC allows elbows on the ground. It is one of the tools used in what fighters call “Ground and Pound”. Essentially, ground and pound consists of a fighter mounted on top of the other fighter, raining down strikes in hopes the referee will stop the fight or the opponent will tap out. Elbows during GnP are usually more vicious than punches. To throw an effective punch, one needs to use the torque from ones hips to gain body weight momentum (HDNet). Elbows require less kinetic power behind them than punches do. Elbows are sharp and have less surface area than say a fist. Precise and accurate elbows have a high percentage of actually causing a facial laceration and nose damage. Dr. Johnny Benjamin states that “during ground and pound, you can’t generate enough force to do a terrible amount of damage” (HDNet). So even with these different types of devastating strikes in MMA, they don’t cause nearly as much longtime or life threatening damage than boxing strikes.

According to several studies that I did, most MMA related injuries are facial lacerations, hand injuries, and injuries to the nose (Bledsoe 136-142). Sounds disgusting right? Blood is a part of MMA that you rarely see in boxing. This is partly due to the very thin gloves and the types of strikes used. The human body holds approximately 10 pints of blood. You can lose about half of that before it starts to become life threatening. Scalp wounds, like the one Joe Stevenson suffered in UFC 81 can be bloody, but are rarely dangerous unless they obscure a fighter’s vision. Unless a cut is too dangerous, the cut man is given a round or two to control the bleeding (Goodman). In an interview with Margaret Goodman, Kenny Florian, a UFC veteran, states that he pre-treats his eyebrows and eye area with Mederma and uses vitamin E on old scars. He avoids using Aspirin and Motrin before a fight, which increases bleeding time, and any form of medicinal steroids that thin the skin (Goodman). Dr. Goodman goes on to say “No one dies from a cut during a fight, but blood frequently influences an outcome” (Goodman). Nick Lembo, counsel to the New Jersey Athletic Control Board, is quoted as saying “In MMA, you’re going to see there’s more violence in their advertising and marketing…But in terms of serious injuries, it seems safer than boxing” (Schultz).

Injuries aside, one of the most brutal aspects of boxing is the standing 8 count. A standing 8 count is given to a fighter that is knocked down. Basically, if you get plastered and you fall you have 8 seconds to get up and prove youÂ’re ok to fight. If it is a slip it usually isnÂ’t counted as a knockdown, and they donÂ’t receive a standing 8 count. The issue lies in the fact that a small amount of guys that are actually knocked down and manage to get up actually come back from that and win the fight. You can get knocked down 2 times in one round and still get up to receive more punishment. Repetitively, you can get knocked down 2 times every round, and if you donÂ’t fall down a third time in that round, then it resets the next round instead of giving you a TKO loss. Now, this rule is ok given that sometimes you slip and fall, you get caught off guard and fall down from a punch, or you just really arenÂ’t that injured, but in most cases this is not the case.

Mixed martial arts does not carry a standing 8 count rule. There are several ways to lose a fight in MMA. There is always the classic knockout or technical knockout. You can tap out or basically submit. This is from things like chokes, arm bars, or leg manipulations. When it comes to KOÂ’s and TKOÂ’s, if you even look like youÂ’re out the ref will step in and call the fight. If youÂ’re on the ground getting beat up, he will stop the fight. If youÂ’re too bloody, and the blood is affecting your vision, he will stop the fight. The referees in MMA have nothing but the fighterÂ’s safety in mind. Many fighters protest when a ref calls a fight, but they donÂ’t give the fighter any leeway. If the ref says youÂ’re done, youÂ’re done. Just to reiterate, in boxing, you can get your rear handed to you to where you get dropped 2 times each round as long as you stand up and pretend youÂ’re ok. If you donÂ’t fall down that third time, then you can continue fighting. Brutal isnÂ’t it?

In relation to the ref stopping a fight, another major reason MMA is safer than boxing is the length of the fights. In MMA, there are several different round setups. Most use three 5 minute rounds, or five 5 minute rounds for championship fights. Boxing is a quite a bit different. Most boxing matches are typically eight, ten, or twelve 3 minute rounds; some championship fights even extending to an amazing 15 rounds to 25 rounds. A typical 15 round championship boxing match is still 20 minutes longer than a 5 round championship MMA fight. I did my own research on this by taking fight counts, finish counts, and round counts from boxing and 4 MMA organizations. The results were less than surprising to me, but may shock the casual fan. In my data I took detailed records of the first 5 rounds of boxing matches because 5 rounds of boxing is equal to the maximum length of a standard MMA fight of three 5 minute rounds. Of the fights in the UFC that I took data from, 39% of the fights ended in the first 5 minutes, or the first round. In the trial period I took from boxing, only 34% of the fights ended before the 5th round 5% of which were first round (MMAmadness.com). A whopping 66 % of all the boxing matches lasted longer than a full MMA match would (Boxing on About.com). On top of that, during the trial period, there were 198 boxing matches that ended in decision, meaning there would be as many as 8, 10, 12, or even 15 rounds. That means of the 295 fights that lasted longer than 5 rounds in boxing, two out of every three fights lasted the entire match length (Boxing on About.com). In combining all the results from MMA together and matching them against the boxing results, I found that 72% of MMA fights ended before the 3rd round, or within the first 10 minutes. In boxing, only 22% of boxing matches ended in that same 10 minute period (MMAmadness.com) (Boxing on About.com). This proves most boxing matches are longer and certainly grueling.

As an example of how grueling a boxing match can get, compare one of each fight. The latest Oscar De La Hoya fight from May 3, 2008 vs. Steve Forbes matches up good with Chuck Liddell vs. Wanderlei Silva from 12/29/07 at UFC 79. Both matches went their respected full times. The MMA match, Chuck vs. Wanderlei, is a match between 2 strikers who donÂ’t spend time rolling around on the ground, so it is as close to boxing statistics as you could get. There were only 3 takedowns in the entire fight. In the MMA fight, Chuck Liddell landed 77 of 160 punches, while Wanderlei landed 59 out of 171 punches (Compustrike). In comparison, Oscar De La Hoya landed 253 out of an amazing 810 punches thrown, and Steve Forbes landed 152 out of 776 punches thrown (Compubox online). Keep in mind, the larger portion of those punches thrown in the boxing match were head shots. Even an MMA match between 2 guys that just like to throw their fists canÂ’t compare to the ferocity of a boxing match.

If demonstrating how many punches are thrown didnÂ’t change your view at all, just have a look at the death records. Over the course of MMAÂ’s existence, there are only 2 deaths reported and recorded. Sam Vasquez was the only fighter to die from injuries sustained in a sanctioned MMA fight (Sievert). Douglas Dedge was the other fighter to die from injuries in an MMA fight. His fight was in the Ukraine, however his bout was unsanctioned. There was a great amount of speculation that he had a pre-existing condition that resulted in his catastrophic death. Even the guys that trained with him here in the United States recounted the numerous times he would blackout and lose vision in training (Hall).

Compared to MMA, fatalities from boxing is in a whole different league. Worldwide, since just the year 2000, a total of 527 professional boxers have lost their lives. 116 professional boxers have died in the United States since the inception of the UFC in 1993. According to the Journal of Combative SportÂ’s Manuel Velazquez Boxing Fatality Report, death from ring injuries is most likely to occur during the fourth, sixth, eighth, tenth, and twelfth rounds (Svinth 10). The bulk of these deaths were reported as being caused by acute subdural hematoma, or internal bleeding in the dura of the brain (Svinth 13).

As you can very well see, boxing is far more brutal than MMA because of the strikes, because of the standing 8 count, and because the fights last longer. Because of these things, there are more deaths, and far more long-term and life threatening injuries to boxers. Blood in MMA is only a marketing tool, and is never a danger to the fighter. This reminds me of the phrase, “Never judge a book by its cover.” In avoiding it because you assume it’s too violent, you miss being a fan of one of the most engaging and exciting sports in the entire world, Mixed Martial Arts.

Not sure who to credit for this excellent story, I just found it in one of my files from long ago...

227

So you would rather have a kick to the head?  Not buying it.  There are not that many ex-fighters that are known to be punch drunk.  This is a myth.

This is not a myth.

The way it works is this: when your head gets knocked back and forth, the intertia, and your brain bouncing around in your skull, severs it's arterial lining, which leads to blood deprivation and minor hemoraging.

This causes brain damage.

The way this happens isn't so much with 1 hit - a hit that hard would just crush your skull. It's the back and forth, left and right, prolonged jerking.

In MMA, if you get rocked, semi-unconcious, mild concussion, the fight is over. If you go out AT ALL the ref's call it, even if you snap back to right away and try to get back up.

If you go only half-out, the other guy jumps on you and keeps hitting... and the ref's call it. You go home and you heal up.

But in boxing, you get a 10 count. You recover. Then you get rocked again. Then recover. Then rocked again. This is what screws your brain. It's better to take 5 hits to your head right now, and then go sit down, then have 1 hit, recover, 1 hit, recover, 1 hit, recover, 15 times.

It doesn't happen from 1 hit. It's much healther to just get hit once and go down unconcious from a big hit (so long as, you know... within limits.. not smashing your skull with a sledgehammer) then it is to take a bunch of minor hits. The minor hits you'll suffer through and soldier on... but all that twisting has an effect. The effect is much more subtle, but more prolongued, and more damaging in the long run.

As for the boxing gloves.. I cannot say if they make getting hit in the head worse for your health or not.

But they certainly do not make it better. Gloves are to protect hands, not heads. That is true.

228 Mixed Martial Arts? I'll use my hillbilly/mountain fighting technique - a knife and a  pistol.

229 Warden, Are you kiding? ALmost the exact same thing happened to me. Including the new job part. You must be kidding; I have posted about that, I'm sure.

230

Re: skill.  I understand these are 2 different sports, but if one of these athletes could make it to the top in boxing, I guarantee you thats where they would be because of the money.

I don't think so dude.

The big UFC guys make big bucks. Maybe more than boxing. Get your facts updated on that maybe.

231 @Guy Fawkes "Re: skill.  I understand these are 2 different sports, but if one of these athletes could make it to the top in boxing, I guarantee you thats where they would be because of the money."

Re: where the 7 is, check out my previous comments on this thread. The $ is leaving boxing (and a few other sports) and going to MMA.

UFC (just 1 company - albeit by far the largest in MMA) is making more $ than all of boxing supposedly. Surpassing hockey supposedly? And that's not including fighter endorsements.

The Chuck Lidell name and probably a few other MMA names out there are bigger than any current boxer now, yeah.. or no? I may be out of my element but my guess is that Chuck Lidell can sell more beers or razor blades than a current boxer?

232 Look at that little monkey run, or something like that. I remember that. Not in the same class as O'Grady. Not in the same class as Joe Rogan. There is no bad mouthing the guys who made it to tv (at least from the booth). It ain't a comedy show and the contestants mommas are watching. Rogan separates that because he is a professional. And for all you mediums out there, tell that fuckin loudmouth Howard Cosell that Lennox would have kicked Ali's ass. If not the first time (cuz he would probably be high), the second, third, and fourth time goddammit! At any rate, Joe Rogan is an incredible commentator and I'd like to see him go mainstream. Does he play golf too???

233 230 Its like accusing someone who like actual wrestling (not pro-wrestling) of liking it for the broken limbs.

Come on, I wrestled, broken limbs are rare and the point is to pin the other dude.
But ok then, if you want, people watch MMA for the big puffy pillow fights.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at June 19, 2010 01:20 AM (T0bhq)

And you think the point in MMA is to make the other guy bleed? 

I'm sorry we've upset you by preferring the bloodsport that is MMA to the sweet science of boxing.  Clearly it requires much more skill to learn to punch a guy in the head and the body and defend against those than it is to learn to punch a guy, kick a guy, knock him to the ground and get him to submit and defend against all those possibilities.

The thing is I don't think a MMA fighter would do good in boxing.  I don't think a boxer would do particularly good in MMA either.  Sort of like expecting someone that is a black belt in Karate to do well in a Judo competition.

234 232 -very well written by an MMA apologist. It would be way to long to do a take down on that piece.  I'll only say that "Blood in MMA is only a marketing tool, and is never a danger to the fighter." makes my point that it is bloodsport.

Listen, I am not trying to knock MMA for the people that like it, but you are not going to convince me that it isn't inherently more dangerous than boxing, unless of course its been watered down or the matches are rigged. 

235 Warden-

Fighting sucks. You win, you get nightmares. You lose, who knows. I say run away (however, I will deal with the fucking nightmares if I can't run away).

236

The Chuck Lidell name and probably a few other MMA names out there are bigger than any current boxer now, yeah.. or no? I may be out of my element but my guess is that Chuck Lidell can sell more beers or razor blades than a current boxer?

Posted by: Hoss at June 19, 2010 01:28 AM (GC6PQ)

Nah the big names in boxing are still bigger.  I think the big difference is like the last superfight chance went to hell because one of the guys was demanding some ridiculous number of blood tests.  And that's the thing with boxing, it too many promotions and the big names aren't fighting eachother.  And they have what one fight a year?  Maybe 2?

In MMA the big name fights that people want to see are going to happen or they will try to get them to happen.  People want a Emmelianko/Lesnar fight.  Dana White wants that fight too, and he'll try hard to get it done, within reason.  But the fighters within the promotions are going to fight and they're not going to try to protect records or pad win counts and undefeated streaks.  And they are going to fight too.  Barring injuries I think most fighters end up doing at least 3 fights per year.  That's a lot more than the big name boxers.

237 >>>And you think the point in MMA is to make the other guy bleed? In fairness, it's a real tactic. But then, so is it in boxing.

238 "The thing is I don't think a MMA fighter would do good in boxing.  I don't think a boxer would do particularly good in MMA either."

Vitor Belfort who was a strong, fast puncher went into pro boxing briefly...

Wikipedia: "On April 11, 2006 Vitor fought in his pro boxing debut against Josemario Neves. Belfort won by TKO within the first minute after knocking his opponent down three times. This has been his sole venture into the sport of professional boxing so far."

And the Mike Tyson speculations - him getting in the ring post Pride?-fight with Bob Sapp talking trash ready to fight.

239

Listen, I am not trying to knock MMA for the people that like it, but you are not going to convince me that it isn't inherently more dangerous than boxing, unless of course its been watered down or the matches are rigged. 

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at June 19, 2010 01:35 AM (T0bhq)

You mean unless its like boxing?  And blood is no longer a marketing tool that I can see.  I wonder how long ago that thing was written.

But no you're not going to knock MMA by calling it a bloodsport and that's the only reason people like it.  Nope that's not knocking it at all.  Oh and the only reason to watch wrestling is in the hopes of seeing someone's leg snap.

240 And you think the point in MMA is to make the other guy bleed?

Yes, thats why people watch.

I'm sorry we've upset you by preferring the bloodsport that is MMA to the sweet science of boxing.

I'm not upset, I thought the point of the post was MMA vs. Boxing.

241 It's not a bloodsport, though, as he says. Fans don't like blood, because we know it results in fighter impairment, and leaves the resolution unsatisfying. He's just wrong if he's suggesting that this is a carnie beat-'em-up freakfest. Yes, when this thing started, it was promoted as that, and was that. But it has gone legitmate. They have eliminated most of the really scary shit (kicks to the head of a downed opponent). It's like boxing, but then sometimes they grapple, and when they grapple, they do use the stuff that's illegal in western wrestling, but everyone taps out when that happens.

242 >>>Yes, thats why people watch. No, it's really not. See my last comment. People watch for the knockouts (as you do) and the tap outs. No one watches "for" the blood. or, let me put it like this: Sure, some weirdies might, but you are really getting the audience wrong to think people are watching it to see blood. Frankly, you see it once, you've seen it enough.

243 It would be interesting to consider our favorite boxers in history as MMA fighters, you simply can't train that champion fighter heart into a wannabe So, who would be the best?

244 Can they fishhook?  

245 Fish-hooking? That was some carny shit. Not allowed anymore. And really was only allowed in that early carny period.

246

You'll not convince me that MMA isn't less dangerous than boxing because it is. Facts is facts whether you like em or not.

But: Who cares?

I thought MMA was awesome back in the early 90's when Royce was rolling everybody and punching them in the nuts.

Seriously, if the track records objectively show that the injuries (and fatalities) are no worse than any other sport including football and hockey, what business is it? In fact... if the track records show that ... it pretty much proves otherwise.

But if it's a "brutal" "blood sport", again, within those limits, so what?

It's not fatal. It's not more injurius than football. The people are entering it voluntarily of their own free will.

I never understood the douchebags trying to ban it back in the day (like John McAmnesty, god I hate that guy). Damn nannies.

247 I don't know who these guys are, but check out this fishhook move.  Takes about three pounds of force to exert control over the other guy.

248 When it was first introduced (and I really do not think of the early UFC as like the recent one) it should have been banned. Fishhooking? Kicks to the head of a downed opponent? Allowed to grab the testicles and pull? Allowed to tear off an ear? This was human cockfighting, it really was. It's just the same as paying two homeless men to fight with pipe wrenches. But that's not what it is now. Because the name was bought out by different people and they made it into a sport. Guy Fawkes is, I think, remembering those first five or six years when it was deliberately controversial, when they WANTED the headlines "HUMAN COCKFIGHTING." It's not that anymore. Yes, it's tough, like boxing. You can get hurt. You could even be killed. But they're not staging it like they used to, which was frankly, "hey, pay $40 and see if someone dies."

249 Ace, you could be right about current audience and maybe they are more "gentile", can't think of a better word, but it sure seems like the majority is a bunch of 16-29 year old males who you would generally see in a riot after a world championship.

250

And what is this obsession with "blood" in "blood sports".

Ohhh no, the guy bleeds. Externally.

So much worse than bleeding internally? Do you watch boxing for the bruises? Or the concussions? The black-outs?

Are these somehow less injurious than a superficial cut?

You can beat the crap out of a guy and it's OK but if he gets a scratch it becomes morally reprehensible?

251

But they're not staging it like they used to, which was frankly, "hey, pay $40 and see if someone dies."

That was bullshit back then too.

Nobody died.

252

A fishhook is carny shit, but it works in a street fight.  I used it on a guy once after hitting him with a ten pound Orbitron dumbell.  (So?  He started it.)

I read about a great wrestler back in Greco-Roman times who was famous for breaking fingers. 

Some of that stuff might help in an alleyway, but I'd rather not see it on TV.

253

But they're not staging it like they used to, which was frankly, "hey, pay $40 and see if someone dies."

I remember when the advertising made it feel like that, the "barely legal" feeling.  I think that's what they were going for.

254 Guy, I really think if you watched an hour of it, you wouldn't have this misconception of it. >>>Ace, you could be right about current audience and maybe they are more "gentile", can't think of a better word, but it sure seems like the majority is a bunch of 16-29 year old males who you would generally see in a riot after a world championship. As for them being young: Well, most sports fans are young and male aren't they? At least the ones you notice, as they're wearing the gear. This one in particular, because it's a young sport and you have to have a bit of money anymore to see a football basketball or baseball game. If you're looking for the word "white trash," yeah, okay, the original product was directed at a trashy audience, and that is part of the audience. But here, really, they're just early adopters -- they're rght, it's a good sport, and it is shedding what might be left of that 1995-2001 "bloodsport"/human cockfighting legacy. Look: When people talk about this, they don't say "OH SHIT DID YOU SEE HOW MUCH BLOOD THERE WAS?" They talk about it like you talk about fights-- who's good, who's up and coming, etc. I think the difference here is that when it was originally sold as cockfighting (and, seriously, it's not anything like that anymore) the fighters were viewed as meat. But now they're vewed as athletes people follow and like, and so they're humanized. Point being: No one really wants to see a human being badly hurt. Knocked out, sure, but you watch boxing for that too.

255 >>>I remember when the advertising made it feel like that, the "barely legal" feeling. I think that's what they were going for. They were but it's not that anymore. It's a sport.

256  I do miss the kidney kicks and groin punches a bit. Think about it, if you're all about it, how in the fuck are you gonna let someone kick your ass for money and titles in a fight that you have been specifically training for by punching or kicking you in the nuts? You absolutely deserve to lose. Furthermore, some of these "inescapable" mounted positions (crucifix, for one) can be reversed with a solid heel to the kidney. Neither blow should kill anybody. I think that shit started just to make it easier to beat the Gracies! Yeah, no eye-gouging, no biting. Other than that, fight. Maybe that's why it has made its way onto SPIKE and ABC. Not quite as brutal. However, the money is good enough these days that the guys can get surgury and enjoy playing golf (or shuffleboard) well into their nineties. And fuck fish-hooking. That is absolutely fucked up for prize fighting. Head butts? Gotta think on that one a bit. Try to head butt a good martial artist. Hang on, I'll be right back...

257

This is the old days, before all the rules (which you will notice).

Tell me how this is "human cockfighting" and a "bloodsport".

http://tinyurl.com/2fv5hfv

I think Kimo was bleeding a bit from his forehead at the very end but not much.

258 >>>That was bullshit back then too. that's how they sold it, though. And as that guy above posted -- he posted that long, long article (which I read) -- part of the reason no one did die is the fighters agreed between eachother pre-fight NOT to do some of the nasty shit the rules formally allowed. No one died, no, but it's really not a sport if clawing the face is permitted. Or you can fishhook. I just don't think it is. I think in that case it's not a sport, you're just paying two people to main each other.

259

>>>I remember when the advertising made it feel like that, the "barely legal" feeling. I think that's what they were going for.

They were but it's not that anymore. It's a sport.

It was a sport back then too.

That was advertising.

Seriously that Kimo vs. Gracie fight is 4 minutes long and looks a lot like a modern UFC fight, but with a couple of differences which you can probably spot.

260

I mentioned way upthread, Ace, the last time I saw it was in the 90's, the cockfighting days.  The way they packaged it was kinda scary.  I don't mean to leave the impression I think it's like that now.  I intend to take a look.

261 entropy, a full kick to the head of a grounded person could easily kill someone or cause him permanent brain damage and you know it.

262 Are cock-punches still legal?

263 I like watching MMA fights for the same reason I like training and participating in (mega, super low-level) MMA sparring: not because I want to see blood but because so much different shit can happen - and because things can change so dramatically so quickly. That's the definition of an exciting sport.

You think someone's screwed and -- wham -- he does something brilliant to prove you wrong. It happens more often in MMA because there are more chess pieces on the board so to speak.

And re: UCF: they designed fights / # and length of rounds to pack the most entertainment in a compact time frame.

264 >>>Are cock-punches still legal? No.

265 You can beat the crap out of a guy and it's OK but if he gets a scratch it becomes morally reprehensible?

Blood is blood, happens in almost all sports including wimpy pussy basketball.

I think you are misunderstanding.  I am not a big race car fan, but I used to hear some people say that other people went to the race just to see a crash.  Now I knew this wasn't true for the 99% of race fans.

But I get the feeling (yes, anecdotal) from the people I have met that like MMA that they "lust" for it like some "finish him" video game.  Ace says its not a high percentage of the audience, I need more evidence.

266 Tiffany, yeah, he and other people probably remember this from the carny bloodsport days. But the thing was bought out in 2001 or something (per that reader's article above) and the new management instituted a lot of rules that moved it away from that and towards a very legitimate combat sport.

267

Have you ever seen the fights Ace? Watch em. I linked a 4 minute fight above. Don't just take the ad copy as gospel. Since when is marketing ever gospel?

It's a mix - half of it looks a lot like modern UFC but with key differences.

The other half looks like bad late 80's early 90's comedy. There were some goofballs.. people coming in from dojos with their Flying Crane kungfu bullshit thinking it would be as effective as Sensei told them it would be but it wasn't.

And the fighters really weren't of the same caliber.

http://tinyurl.com/27y89oy

268 >>>But I get the feeling (yes, anecdotal) from the people I have met that like MMA that they "lust" for it like some "finish him" video game. Ace says its not a high percentage of the audience, I need more evidence. Dude, watch an hour and resolve this dispute to both of our satisfaction. I'll watch some fight you want me to sample.

269 Hell MMA is being used by NFL teams now for training purposes.  Probably in a way that some football players have used sparring in boxing in for exercise in the past.  I think MMA is better though for them since body positioning on a guy can be beneficial for a running back in evading tackles or a lineman needing to block.

270 >>>It's a mix - half of it looks a lot like modern UFC but with key differences. Entropy, yeah, most of it is going to look the same. What is different is a handful of dangerous/cheap moves (dangerous-- kick to head of down opponent; cheap -- finger manipulation) aren't allowed anymore, and good riddance. Sure, if you show me a fight in which these brutish things DON'T happen it will look like real MMA. Because it is real MMA -- it's the good stuff without the dangerous and cheap shit.

271

But I get the feeling (yes, anecdotal) from the people I have met that like MMA that they "lust" for it like some "finish him" video game.  Ace says its not a high percentage of the audience, I need more evidence.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at June 19, 2010 02:14 AM (T0bhq)

How about all the people here that have said they enjoy it.  Any of us say that we like it for the blood and we want to see it? 

272

a full kick to the head of a grounded person could easily kill someone or cause him permanent brain damage and you know it.

In some situations yes. I don't have a problem with that rule. It's a good rule. I don't want to see people die.

But in other situations... it's kinda like a full kick to the head when he's standing too. So not having that rule (like I think Pride didn't) isn't like they're just trying to kill people.

Nobody died. Even with that rule in the UFC, and in other MMA venues like Pride.

The proof is in the pudding. You can argue with the statistics I guess but they really say it all. No matter what seems like what.

Anyway, watch those 2 links. It will take 8 minutes. Nobody dies, I promise. Nobody even gets hurt bad.

The way they packaged it was kinda scary. 

Packaging.

Watch those 2 links.

273 And yes, I saw the first several UFC fights, or at least several from the 1995-96 period. And no, I don't remember anything awful happening. Because the shit that seemed crazy to me -- fishhooks! -- didn't happen, possibly by quite-sane mutual agreement between fighters. Fighters shouldn't really have to reach agreements like that pre-fight. Fishhooking and finger manipulation and so on shouldn't be permitted. I guess finger manipulation (or ankle-twisting) isn't likely to result in serious permanent impairment, but fuck me, do I want to see a fight end because some pansy broke fingers?

274 But some of those early day fights were they put a tiny karate guy in the ring with a 400lb sumo guy and the tiny guy spends the entire fights cracking the beached whale's head in -- or the guy who spent the entire time punching the other dude in the junk...

... back then when the fight promoters pitted people WAY out of weight class, and had bouncers fighting martial artists and people didn't know Gracie defensive guard techniques -- that was some negligently dangerous stuff (except for, basically, the Gracies who knew how to deal with just about anything that came at them.) 

But even the most callous viewer couldn't go into a fight without thinking, jeezus, something really awful could happen...

Now it's not like that. Now you see some of the most well trained athletes in the world square off.

275

Sure, if you show me a fight in which these brutish things DON'T happen it will look like real MMA. Because it is real MMA -- it's the good stuff without the dangerous and cheap shit.

Actually the first fight I linked has a headbutt, a knee to the groin, and hair pulling.

Royce Gracie was a dirty bastard.

Still doesn't look that much different on the whole.

I'm not saying they should repeal the "no hair pulling rule". It's a fine rule. I like modern UFC, it is better in many ways.

But that's not at all to say the old one (or other MMA tournaments) should have been banned.

276 remember everyone, Fedor fights next Saturday, the 26th, on Showtime. Strikeforce / M-1 Global. Fedor is (as they say) "pound for pound" one of the best (the absolute best in my opinion) in the sport. Nobody flows like he does. Nobody moves like he does. Nobody has the mental composure that he does. If you want to see a real life human being that could beat anyone else on the planet in unarmed combat- this is your chance to see him. And he is also one of the greatest sportsmen you'll ever come across.

277 I was re-reading my #258, and it sounds weird.  That guy was my date's jealous ex-boyfriend, and he was trying to do permanent damage.  That's what I get for watching TV with the wrong girl.

278

And, we may have a cultural aversion to "dirty" fighting like pulling hair as somehow less honorable then punching a dude in the face...

But it's not like a serious deadly injury. And neither is a fishhook.

I'm not arguing they should allow these things... but if fighters (and a league) did want to, then they want to, we don't need to outlaw them. It doesn't make it "human cockfighting" cuz someone got his hair pulled.

Giving homeless people monkey wrenches, that perhaps, is human cockfighting.

279 piledriving?

280

that was some negligently dangerous stuff

Hoss, you can say that all day long and everyone seems to feel that way.

But none of that 'gone terribly wrong' shit ever happened so it's just wrong. Empirically. You've got tested results.

There were refs. They kept things within reason.

It's like the bit about people saying if everyone had guns, we'd all shoot each other over parking lot disputes.

It seems like it would happen... and yet, it doesn't. It just doesn't.

It's people leaping to unwarranted conclusions.

281 Dude, watch an hour and resolve this dispute to both of our satisfaction.

I'll watch some fight you want me to sample.

Here's the deal.  I have showtime, flicked by the strikeforce a few times, never lasted more that a few minutes, generally because I see them throw a jab and it is nowhere close to the skill of a pro-boxer, or I see them wrestle and know that a college wrestler never would allow such a cheap takedown.  So ok, mma lets you do all of these things which I guess is the draw, jack of all trades, expert at none kind of thing.  So thats my take on the post of boxing vs mma and why I prefer boxing

I guess I touched a nerve calling it a bloodsport.  Now one time last year I flicked by and saw some guy had another guy in some weird hold and I thought ok, how is he going to get out of this, and he takes his elbow and rips it across this guys face and opens this huge gash and as the guy falls back this guy starts beating the crap out of him while the crowd grabs the fence and cheers, and then the ref stopped it.  Last time I watched.

282 @Entropy I agree with you. I didn't mean CRIMINALLY negligent. People can choose to do dumb things, chickens can't -- they're forced -- so that early MMA should damn well be legal. I'm glad it is/was in certain communities. It was within reason. And politicians making salt a crime or making it a crime for me to watch two consenting people bludgeon themselves = just about the same thing in my book.

My point is just that really dangerous stuff can happen when you have people who don't know how to properly defend themselves, or they are way mis-matched in other ways like weight and/or experience.

That's what really separates the early days of MMA from now.

283

A big part of it is the refs.

When you're in a professional fight you literally put your life in the ref's hand.

With modern UFC rules or with boxing rules, if the ref doesn't do his shit, you can wind up dead - same as you might die in football or hockey or that one guy died in WWF wrestling when a stunt failed and fell.

But with a good ref doing his job, even with the old UFC rules, nobody gets killed, nobody gets maimed for life.

The proof is in the pudding. I think the vast majority of the rule changes (maybe not all - you should be able to head butt) have been good changes. Undeniably they have been great for the sport.

But despite it's seedy marketing material, it wasn't some horrendous inhumane activity that needed to be outlawed.

284 288- I think a lot of this sort of interpretation of visual input is off because of a different set of assumptions in MMA. A pure boxer is going to find some MMA striking sloppy, or in some other way off. But the pure boxer, due to his limited experience in other areas, is unable to see the events taking place from the correct, reality-based perspective. Doing things the pure boxing way might result in being on your back very quickly, as a simple for instance, and the pure boxer just may not be able to "see" that.

285 >>>I see them wrestle and know that a college wrestler never would allow such a cheap takedown. A lot of them are college wrestlers. That's a big recruiting pool. re: the elbow gash technique yeah, it happens. I'm not a fan. it's not common. It's also not rare, really, but it's uncommon.

286 Japan still has that problem.  Its very much got a sideshow aspect to it over there.  Mismatches between fighters.  People who have no business being in the ring.  Guys who can't fight in the US because they were busted for steroids.  Its got a very prowrestling attitude towards it over there.

287 MMA is the REAL essence of sport. It is the essence of competition. Since sports are about competition, and competition is (was) about competing for resources and survival- MMA is the ultimate in the departments. And as for combat oriented sports- MMA is the real deal. MMA answers all those questions every kid has about who would win a fight- this stylist versus another. If you can do MMA, you are going to be able to defend yourself in a real life situation better than anyone else. (exception being others who have trained). Throw in some eye gouging, biting, and other sorts of "secretive" nasty techniques for use when a life is at stake, and you'll be good to go.

288 guy, I'm having trouble getting your beef. Are you saying the crowd was wrong to cheer a series of punches that landed and looked like they might result in a knockout? Honestly, man. Honestly. I seem to remember cheering myself just this in boxing... including against a fighter with a big cut on his eyebrow... whose cut had been deliberately reopened several times by scuffing with the laces of the glove... I seem to rememeber EVERYONE cheering... because... like... that's what the crowd does in that situation.

289

nowhere close to the skill of a pro-boxer, or I see them wrestle and know that a college wrestler never would allow such a cheap takedown. 

Um, depends on who you're watching. Not everybody is the champ. Some guys are rookies.

On wrestling, yes, there are pro-level wrestlers (real ones), Abu Dhabi champs and olympic gold medal wrestlers wrestling in UFC. The wrestling is pro caliber.

The striking? It's getting better, it's been getting better. It is probably not at the champion boxing level yet, but some of the better strikers these days are getting damn close.

But not every fight you see is neccessarily going to have a good striker in it, or a good wrestler... or even a good MMA fighter.

Watch a championship fight and you'll see 2 good fighters.

290 @Entropy Though watching someone take dozens of punches to the groin is hard (and not very fun) to watch. I'd classify that as "something going terribly wrong." Not illegal. Just wrong.

@Guy Fawkes "jack of all trades." Well what sometimes happens (especially earlier on in MMA before folks trained to be well rounded at an early age) is that you have a world class wrestler, or striker, or jujitsu guy who trains like mad to get the other parts of his game up to snuff -- but often 1 or 2 areas iare superior to the others.

Ie, there will be weak links when the weapons are so abundant.

That actually adds to the interest I think. How does a guy whose primary training = olympic gold medal wrestler (but who has learned other weapons) fare against a striker whiz or a take down guru or a ground-game pretzel king?

291 Good point 291 - maybe you can't throw a straight jab in that sport to be effective.

I think it highly unlikely I could get into the sport.  Especially since my wife wouldn't allow it, and she allows me to do almost anything.  But kids and all.

Now I would like to try that handgun shooting off the moving chair on topshot last week, that seems like a kick.


PS - up above, wasn't looking for "white trash", more of a "video game desensitized freak".

292 honestly, about 1/5 of the boxing fights I've seen have had fairly serious cuts and in almost all of them one fighter deliberately scuffed the cut to reopen it.

293 you're acting like the idea of a fighter trying to blind his opponent with a blood-dripping eyebrow cut is just something you're entirely unfamiliar with, and just wouldn't be countenanced in boxing.

294 Are you saying the crowd was wrong to cheer a series of punches that landed and looked like they might result in a knockout?

No, I am not saying that.  I am saying the resulting crowd reaction wasn't standing and cheering, or saying oh man thats brutal, or wow amazing move,  it was seriously like a pack of wild dogs ready to lap up the blood after the pack dog finishes a kill.  I seriously watched the crowd faces on the replay, because of the reaction, plus there was a chick with huge boobs.

295 Yeah, I hate head butts in boxing, because as you said before it always results in a dissatisfying ending.

296 I really think you are looking at the same reaction, seen in both boxing and MMA, but you have a certain take on MMA fans so when they cheer in pretty much he same way you're reading it as bad. Look, in boxing -- with all those classy high-dollar fans in the audience -- when someone's getting whooped, the crowd rises to its feet, claps, shouts, and you can often hear "TAKE HIS HEAD OFF!"

297 Funny. Was reading about early UFC with the original owners/promoters: the very 1st event groin strikes were not allowed. But for the second event they WERE allowed. Ie, the first event wasn't "no holds barred" enough I guess.

298 I guess it comes down to what is the purpose of each sport. One is fighting, one is boxing.  I prefer boxing because I believe it has higher skill level.

And I agree, I would have to be in an actual mma crowd to really guage what their reaction is,  but thats unlikely to happen.

299 I think it's so simple: fans of any sport want action and they want decisiveness. They want to watch someone becoming a winner and someone becoming a loser. In fights that means when you see someone beat someone's face in, or pull off a crazy ass submission out of nowhere -- that's why you're there.

MMA is $-making genius because you often get that fulfillment much more immediately & vividly compared to 12 rounds of boxing or 500 miles around a track.

300 Ace-

I like your website. I like it a lot. Let me be clear: I like your website. It makes me smarter. Where else could I get an in depth analysis of MMA v boxing and read and understand PhD level dissertations on civics and economics? We emulate what we like and what makes sense to us. Your site lets me question and strengthen my own perceptions of this world. Also, the comments you allow here are priceless. Some of the funniest, most astute stuff I've ever read.  Let me be clear - I will pay for this. Just give me some time. Oh- IGJAG - "instant genius, just add google" (I coined that acronym). That should become as well known as LOL. Seen first here on AoSHQ. That's my contribution until I can shake out some money for you, Sir.

Let me be clear: Thanks!

sockpuppet number 1016

301 wtf was that 307?  Let me be clear: that was weird.

302 A compliment. I guess I fucked that up.

303 Well, fuck it, I now have a name here: 307

And this awkward shit will pass...

304

Don't worry about it.

Check out this undercover video of Ace singing to his pool boy.

305 A buddy of mine is an MMA pankration fighter & a bouncer at the Cheetah in Atlanta. He is rather scrawny & not much to look, but tall. I've seen him take some brutal sucker-punches from drunk customers & just laugh at them then proceed to make their night out quite memorable. We're also poker buddies & he's no slouch at that. These guys are for reals. But my larger point... . . . I'm just damn glad it's gaining in popularity because we really need to reverse the ongoing pussification of America. In MMA, no pussies allowed. Figuratively speaking, of course. MMA chicks could kick your ass, & you'd like it...;-) tD

306 Funny you should post this, Ace. 

Last Saturday, I found myself in a sports bar in the Twin Cities (probably for the first time in 15 years), and it happened to be UFC night.

I'd never watched it before, and I was sort of getting into it, but I was more watching the crowd.

Several young couples were up at the bar, and the ladies would sort of cringe, and look away.

One of the young men leans over to me and confides:

"They act like they don't like it, but it gets the chicks really horny."

So, I'm definitely a bigger fan than I was.

307 160 "how much damage can a 155lb guy do, anyway?" A lot. . . & I'm 6'3" 235. My 145 lbs Greco-Roman wrestler roommate in college taught my slow, offensive lineman ass that. He went Airborne Reserve, Secret Service, then he made HRT. Wrestling gave him the mindset needed to accomplish that. His skin would literally turn a shade of green when he would cut weight. MMAs got that same mindset. tD

308 FEDOR RULES!
Watching Fedor Emelianenko on a good day is like rereading Sun Tzu in a good translation: you can learn a lot.

309

@38 - Actually I think it's a repeat, in almost all details, of a post I did write 24 months ago.

But since then I've learned... well, almost nothing.

F'n INTEGRITY.  That's why we come here. 

@ 280  ". . . and so on shouldn't be permitted."

Reply, in general, to many similar sentiments in the thread - You don't like the rules, don't get in the ring.  Don't tell me I'm wrong to like the rules.  Like someone else said, it's like outlawing salt on food.

In  fighting sports, and most sports, the rules prevent things that make sense.  Otherwise, you wouldn't need a rule.  It annoys me to see some wonderful opportunity not taken because "the rules" say you can't do that.  That's why I don't like boxing, or soccer, or Tae Kwon Do - too many rules.  I like to watch MMA because it limits things less, allows more creativity on the part of the fighters.  Doesn't mean anyone else is wrong for liking boxing.  Soccer fans are still wrong, though. 

310 Ace, you didn't discuss the beauty of submissions. Brazilian jujitsu is a legit self-defense and in combat sports, it's quite humane.

311 One of my friends just recently had her first MMA fight in AC. She took a blow to the ear 20 seconds in and the fight was stopped due to unanswered hits. Says she blacked out. 6 months of training for a 20 second fight? crazy.

312

I think my fiance's brother in law is in something like this. Still local but he's developing a rep that has resulted in several fighters backing out when they found out he was their competition in a match.

313

Been a long-time lurker, and amused to see a post by Ace on MMA.  I, as it so happens, train Brazilian jiu jitsu.  A half dozen of the guys that I train with compete in MMA fights, three of whom have several pro fights under their belts.  That said, here are my thoughts...

1.  BJJ can be useful as protection, but is ultimately a sport.  It will work great one-on-one.  Almost all real fights end on the ground, and the jiu jitsu training will come in handy.  If you're facing multiple opponents, you want something like JKD.  Protection against multiple opponents is not just Hollywood stuff.

2.  Some MMA fighters develop bad attitudes, but others are as nice as can be.  The best fighter at my gym is the most humble, friendly guy that you'll ever meet.  I've had the chance to meet Matt "Meathead" Mitrione and he's like a teddy bear.

3.  A significant number of the folks who compete in combat sports are conservative.  So, uh, show a little support, morons.

314 UFC reminds be of a street brawl. That's basically what it is.

315 I don't know how long the popularity will continue here in the US. as soccer gains steam, it may take away some of their fans.

316 A roundhouse kick to the head knockout. (Actually, he hit with the shin to the chin -- good enough.)

Outside of Hollywood, strong kicks are pretty much always delivered with the shin, not the foot.  Your shin bone is as strong as an axe handle, whereas if you kicked somebody hard in the head with the top of your foot, you'd tear tendons in your ankle.

317 UFC is responsible for 75%+ of douchebaggery amongst the nation's youth.  Fact.  Now let's go throw on some Tapout! gear and bro down. 

318 Okay, here is why boxing will ALWAYS reign supreme of "MMA". Because MMA has had to 'clean up' and become less brutal and ugly - that is, move toward Boxing. And in a 'clean' less 'brutal' sport, Boxers will always kick MMA's asses. - ALWAYS. The 'sex' appeal of MMA is in fact the brutality. But that has limited appeal in a First World society - i.e., in Western Civilization. Were this not true, MMA would not need to 'clean up' and become 'less brutal'. To be sure, watch the best top twenty MMA matches ever fought versus the best top five Boxing matches ever fought. You may notice a striking contrast. Namely that the high drama in Boxing dwarfs the clumsy, sloppy brutality of MMA. This will ALWAYS be the case - because of game structure. Speaking of which, please review my masterpiece US American concept which I will post the link to in the very next post...

319 ..., and here it is:http://docs.google.com/View?id=d9zrjs6_12g68ptbg5

320 I thought boxing gloves were adopted to protect the boxers hands (not his opponent's head)?

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322 Hello! caebbec interesting caebbec site!

323 My partner and I absolutely love your blog and find almost all of your post's to be exactly I'm looking for. Would you offer guest writers to write content available for you? I wouldn't mind writing a post or elaborating on some of the subjects you write related to here. Again, awesome blog!

324 cool!

I love MMA!

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