1

How about getting these bastards under a hate speech law?

2 Huh, so I guess fraud is okay if its about the military.

3 Obama loves this decision. Now he -really- doesn't need to show any college transcripts. They never existed anyways.

4 Shoring up the foundation of the Democrat party...

5 I think wearing ribbons and medals that you didn't earn is against the Stolen Valor act and UCMJ.

6 So we fall back on jury nullification for beatings administered by actual veterans.

7

 

in b4 Dickless Blumenthal!

8

 

Question: Can I lie about being black or injun in order to get federal bennies?

9

The Act therefore concerns us because of its potential for setting a precedent whereby the government may proscribe speech solely because it is a lie.

So does that mean that perjury statutes are unconstitutional? What about lying to Federal Investigators (*cough*marthastewart*cough*scooterlibby*)? Is that protected speech now?

10

The DD 214 tells the whole story. The only reason to lie about military service is to embelish or hide something.Who cares if someone was in the Arctic Circle for 20 years.You still served your country.

11 Does this same freedom of speech to lie also extend to job applications and bank loan forms? 

How about my annual 1040?

How about my answers to the Census?

I'll be waiting for the Ninth Circus' reply with bated breath.

12 Here's a workable test: if the 'speech' is provably and inarguably false, and is made with the knowledge it is false and with intent to deceive, it's not protected.

13 So if "saying" you have been awarded the medal of honor (when you have not been awarded it) is not really lying, what is it then, an expression of opinion? How else does one interpret the statement "I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor"  if not as a statement of fact.

I don't recall the First Amendment giving one the right to utter falsehoods, about yourself or others. Fuckin' 9th Circuit.

14 Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't impersonating a lawyer, doctor, police officer etc, illegal? It would seem logical that impersonating a military official-who would have access to bases, classified information/technology, etc-would be illegal as well. If not, could someone please explain the difference? Because people who claim they are doctors or police officers are arrested for stating such. By this ruling, isn't that abridging their free speech?

15 People do have a right to lie. They don't have the right to profit in any way from their lies. That is where the solution lies. Bring them into the light and mock them. I have the right to claim I am the King of Norway, but unless it is for entertainment purposes only and everybody knows that I should never profit from it.

16 The sad fact is, most people lie about some aspects of their lives from time to time.

LOL.  As if anyone really thinks it's a "sad fact" that people lie about all sorts of things.  That statement, itself, that it's a "sad" fact, is a lie.  Now, it is truly a sad fact that judges like to lie about everything.

17 Whoever dies with the best lies wins.

18 Display of medals, awards and badges for which you do not have orders is punishable under the UCMJ. Why should civilians be exempt? Especially if used to fraudfulently receive something of value.

19 I have the right to claim I am the King of Norway, but unless it is for entertainment purposes only and everybody knows that I should never profit from it.

YOU LIE!

20 It is extremely likely that the Supreme Court will take a Stolen Valor case and resolve the issue, though it might wait until there is a bonafide split in the circuit courts first.

Has any court upheld the constitutionality of the law?

I haven't been able to find one but my search hasn't exactly been exhaustive.

21 I have the right to claim I am the King of Norway, but unless it is for entertainment purposes only and everybody knows that I should never profit from it.

YOU LIE!

Posted by: The REAL King of Norway at August 17, 2010 03:09 PM (T0NGe)

Bunch of Gad damn whale murderers.

22 Public scorn and private punishment is the way to handle this. The Federal Government already has enough of a grip on us.

23 Being on federal property under false pretenses or falsely stating to be a government official are both federal crimes. Remember James O'Keefe was charged with the latter last year I think.

24 So are truth in advertising and fraud laws null and void?

25

"PALMYRA — A soldier from New Jersey was killed in Iraq Sunday after insurgents attacked his vehicle with grenades.

The body of Specialist Jamal Rhett, 24, of Palmyra, was flown into Dover Air Force Base in Delaware today, where it was met by members of his family"

This is despicable that a court would allow someone to steal the valor and cloak themselves in the just honor awarded to those who sacrifice.

26 I love this.  It's illegal for someone to say how crappy a company is, even if it is the truth.  Anyone who says anything that might make someone else less confident about a stock, no matter how true, is ILLEGAL.  But, lying about military service is just honky-dory.  And lying about how good companies are is encouraged.

It's amazing the US has even lasted this long with this bunch of retards running the courts.  Just amazing.  And they wonder why lawyers and judges are held in such low esteem and contempt by people who actually have brains.

27 off topic but does anyone have any information about this?
Senate Bill S510 Makes it illegal to Grow, Share, Trade or Sell Homegrown Food- this is on you tube, not sure if it's a conspiracy theory or just something the damn liberals don't want out there

28

so lying is okay?

###spit###

29
 Jesus pleas us, that is ENOUGH. That shit's right up there with flag burning . Piss poor law to protect bipedal feces.

 Think I need a beer.

30 Federal court system:

Military service is just a job, the American flag is nothing but cloth and ink, and the Constitution is only a piece of parchment with some ink randomly spread over it.  Got it, America?

31 The SCOTUS will probably strike down the "you can't lie about it" provisions, but will probably uphold the notion that you can't misrepresent it to gain benefit.

Basically, I say that lawyers should not be held any higher than anyone else.  That is, if there is a circumstance in which I can lie about being a lawyer, then in that same circumstance I can lie about military service.

32

I'm not sure that even Scalia's rule holds up. Burning a cross isn't just racial boorishness; it is a message to everybody that the KKK is active in the region. Never mind if "the KKK" here are just a couple of fat old rednecks. Said organisation is a terrorist group, founded for the express purpose of violating federal laws by means of private violence. This message amounts to the KKK's propaganda and is, itself, a method of recruitment and terrorism. It is not Constitutionally-protected speech.

33 disgusting to me.

34

Don't the writers of this type of legislation do their due diligence and research the constitutionality issues to make sure they have language that will shield it from these questions and have ready made arguments in its defense?

Posted by: polynikes at August 17, 2010 03:14 PM (m2CN7)

How do you defend any law against insane, capricious judges who don't know the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground?  You cannot use reason to defend against the unreasonable.

35 Blago! Blagp! Blago!

Apparently his coiffness may be getting his verdict this PM.
Pretty final sounding note sent by jury. Drudge. Per some of the comments, the previous note indicated that it was "kinda evenly split" or something like that.
One question: Does Blago walk out of the courtroom today a free man? Pending a sentence? Or maybe he goes directly to jail, no $200, thanks for playing.?

36 Maybe those chix could do what Carl Levin does.  He completely hides his ugliness behind reading glasses.  No one knows!

37 @shocked --

Go to www.govtrack.us and search for S.510. There is such a thing, and it is an agriculture bill. I haven't gone through it to see if it's as bad as advertised, though.

38 Wait, wait!  I have the solution.

We should all walk into the 9th circuit court of appeals and, a la Sparticus, declare that we are judges on the court.

Period.  We now get selected for 3-judge panels, etc., etc.

They can't stop us or prosecute us for lying about it!

39

there should be a sentence of 10 minutes in a locked room full of pissed off vets

it would fix this problem

40 eman is right, the "remedy" is exposure, ridicule and humiliation.  We can't start making lying a crime. Stolen Valor laws sound like some fad legislation to get pols elected to the legislature or Congress. Sounds good, the dopey voters go for it, a win-win politically.

None of these people cares what happens to the law later. It's just a play for votes.

41 So, I guess lying on a government employment application form is now legit. If you hire me on the basis of my lies, I win. If you deny me or fire me based on discovered lies, I can sue for wrongful termination. I win again.

Or, how about a contractor lying to get a Federal contract. Now legit, too? I mean, free speech just wants to be free and all.

We are being led/lectured by some of the most crack-headed human-like piles of protoplasm the planet has ever oozed.

42

I'm not sure that even Scalia's rule holds up. Burning a cross isn't just racial boorishness; it is a message to everybody that the KKK is active in the region. Never mind if "the KKK" here are just a couple of fat old rednecks.

 

What were the circimstances behind the case presented to the court? Did some jerk trespass on a person's property or a prminent public place, erect a cross and burn it? Or did they wander off to a vacant lot and do this?  If it's the former, then that's terroristic threatening. If its the latter, then its a circle jerk.

43 Hey did you guys know that I was part of a secret SpecOps team that invaded Cambodia while on LSD?

We may have murdered and raped a town of mountain people, or hallucinated the whole thing.
Still a little blurry on that one.

True story, and I have a hat to prove it.

44 Blago, $500 fine/90day probation - walks

45 28 off topic but does anyone have any information about this?
Senate Bill S510 Makes it illegal to Grow, Share, Trade or Sell Homegrown Food- this is on you tube, not sure if it's a conspiracy theory or just something the damn liberals don't want out there

This is an important first step before you seize all of the farms

46 We can't start making lying a crime.

Posted by: cassandra at August 17, 2010 03:20 PM (GdalM)

No one is trying to make lying a crime.

47

i agree, it is free speech.

The guy is a scum bag, and should have the shit beat out of him by the VFW, but i am a first amendment absolutist.

I actually believe you should be able to yell fire in a crowded theater, or make threats against other people verbally if you so desire.

Free speech is free speech.

 

48 Who wins if I burn a cross on somebody's lawn on a designated no burn day - 1st amendment or EPA?

49 So you can get kicked out of the Military for wearing an award you are not entitled to. And as soon as you are out, you can just wear a whole chest of them and lie your ass off? Makes sense I guess/

50 I actually believe you should be able to yell fire in a crowded theater, or make threats against other people verbally if you so desire. and get the shit beat out of you for it ...

51 43, I don't see the ruling that way. There is a difference between a private entity punishing you for a lie (your boss fires you) and the Federal Government punishing you simply for telling a certain type of lie. I have the Right to tell my boss to eat it and he has the Right to fire me for that. These turds should be punished by us, not the Feds or anything else.

52 47 28 off topic but does anyone have any information about this?
Senate Bill S510 Makes it illegal to Grow, Share, Trade or Sell Homegrown Food- this is on you tube, not sure if it's a conspiracy theory or just something the damn liberals don't want out there

This is an important first step before you seize all of the farms

Posted by: Josef Stalin at August 17, 2010 03:23 PM (IqfKc)

Hydroponics

53 this is on you tube, not sure if it's a conspiracy theory or just something the damn liberals don't want out there

Posted by: shocked at August 17, 2010 03:13 PM (3nDF5)

Heh. Knowing this group it's probably already hidden in the healthcare bill somewhere.

54

eman is right, the "remedy" is exposure, ridicule and humiliation

 

If this was true, then Emily's list wouldn't have produced a Liberal ad/Ace porno combo tape.THis guy made self aggradizing statements in a public setting, in an attempt to impress and influence. And supposedly this is pure free speech. As harmless and pure as a cigarette ad on TV.

55 From what I understand it is illegal to impersonate a lawyer. Why is that a protected class and our veterans are not?

56

Has any court upheld the constitutionality of the law?

I haven't been able to find one but my search hasn't exactly been exhaustive.

Not yet. But the current version of the SVA has only been around for a few years. There haven't been many purely SVA prosecutions yet. Most, like this case and the Colorado one, are "test" cases, where the prosecutors are trying to figure out the outer limits of the statute.

To all the commenters above who mentioned activities taken to get a benefit (like lying on a job application, claiming to be a doctor, etc.) all those cases are distinguishable from a SVA prosecution. To be found guilty under the SVA, you don't have to lie to get a benefit. You just have to lie. Congress could fix this very easily if they just added a "to obtain any benefit" element to the statute.

57 I couldnt get hired anywhere unless I had my DD 214.otherwise you have to explain what you have been doing for the past 4,10 or 20 years.Claiming being a Marine for 25 years then saying you earned the Medal of Honor should be a punishable offence.Being the Medal of Honor recipient puts you in a very small group of men who have recieved that decoration.I'ts not hard to find out who the recipients are.Some people have absolutely no shame.To claim it's free speech demeans the actual men and women who fought and died for that right.

58 Gabe if you could prosecute for lies then we'd not be able to find 100  of our current crop of democrat politicians who'd be eligible for offi...er wait a minute.

59

From what I understand it is illegal to impersonate a lawyer. Why is that a protected class and our veterans are not?

It is illegal to impersonate a lawyer...for the purpose of fraud. It is decidedly NOT illegal to just impersonate a lawyer. (Actors to it all the time. Duh.) To fix the SVA, all Congress has to do is hook the lie to fraud or attempts to procure a benefit.

60 Respect and social acceptance are benefits ... albeit, hard to quantify, accountingly speaking...

61 Hmmmm.

Does this mean I have a First Amendment right to lie on the witness stand?

62 So, I guess lying on a government employment application form is now legit. If you hire me on the basis of my lies, I win. If you deny me or fire me based on discovered lies, I can sue for wrongful termination. I win again.

There will be a line.  It depends on what case they take as to what take they'll have on it.  If they take the most banal case, look for them to strike the whole thing and just argue that prior laws are sufficient to deal with that which they'll uphold.  If they take a complicated case (or more than one) look for them to uphold some and strike down others.

63 Hmmmm.

@ certoirari refused at August 17, 2010 03:03 PM (uFokq)

"Question: Can I lie about being black or injun in order to get federal bennies?"

Ooooooh!  I like this one!

64 To all the commenters above who mentioned activities taken to get a benefit (like lying on a job application, claiming to be a doctor, etc.) all those cases are distinguishable from a SVA prosecution.To be found guilty under the SVA, you don't have to lie to get a benefit. You just have to lie.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 17, 2010 03:28 PM (IkTb7)

Incorrect.  "You just have to lie" ABOUT HAVING BEEN AWARDED MEDALS.

So, Gabe, is it okay to lie and claim you're an FBI agent or a cop?  Can I put a cop light on my car for kicks?

Do you lawyers even believe the crap you spew?

65

How about older guys talking dirty about what they would like do to your underage daughter .  After all free speech is free speech.

 

Posted by: polynikes

 

Exactly. Several people here couldn't fathom why our favorite candidate, Alvin Greene, was in trouble for 'showing somebody some pictures'. A student at a university can't sit in a common area without being accosted and someone deliberately putting a phone or camera in her face that has pron. Added to that was the fact that he supposedly wasn't allowed in the area to which he gained access. If she wanted to watch that, she could watch the Disney channel after 4:00 or read the ONT.

66 Gabe,

I think you have figured out how to resolve whatever constitutional problems SVA supposedly has.

67

 

BRETT FAVRE is gonna play!!!

68 BRETT FAVRE is gonna play!!! Posted by: certoirari refused at August 17, 2010 03:34 PM (uFokq) BREATHING IS GOOD

69

BRETT FAVRE is gonna play!!!

Posted by: certoirari refused

 

I heard that he was gonna 'phone it in'.

70 It is decidedly NOT illegal to just impersonate a lawyer.  (Actors to it all the time. Duh.) 

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 17, 2010 03:30 PM (IkTb7)

Actors drive well over the speed limit (in their movies) all the time.  Actors blow buildings up all the time. Actors do all sorts of shit in movies that we don't do on the street, since it's illegal.

Maybe you'll point to boxers, next, to show us how it's legal to beat the living shit out of someone.  Boxers do it all the time.

71 Of course, it's perfectly OK to abridge speech when it's just political speech.

72 all Congress has to do is hook the lie to fraud or attempts to procure a benefit.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 17, 2010 03:30 PM (IkTb7)

I thought that was already part of the SVA although I havn't read it. Committing fraud is already illegal though anyway isn't it?

73 A law could say you can be punished for lying about Princess Obama. Lying itself is ok. What the lying produces and what should be done about it are the true issues. Keep the Feds out of it.

74 I wonder if the numbers I put on my 1040 form are protected by 1st.

75

 

I heard that he was gonna 'phone it in'.

Well, he ain't gonna practice or play in any pre-season games, that's for sure.

76

Ninth Circuit: You Have the Right to...BLOW ME!

 

77 How exactly does an actor - whose name, real or professional - appears in the credits next to the lawyer persona created by a script writer - impersonate a lawyer?

An actor standing up at, say, a Townhall meeting and introducing himself as a lawyer is impersonating a lawyer, and no, I have not heard of this being down on a regular basis...

78
 I call bullshit on flag burning as an "expression of free speech", also. It is in NO WAY an expression of free speech, it's wilful and malicious desecration of our national symbol, and by extension, a denial of this country.

 And  while we're at it, "I support the troops, but not the mission" shit, too. If you profess to support the troops, you must also support their mission, the two are intrinsic. Not doing so is saying DIRECTLY to their faces you consider their effort and sacrifice MEANINGLESS.

 I suspect that most, if not all vets will agree with those sentiments, especially those of us who endured that shitstorm from the left during and after the Vietnam War.

  Off the soapbox now. That beer sounds really good right now.

79 Fraud has a component to it that requires that you be injured by the misrepresentation (parted with money you would not have otherwise, etc.) From what the Court says, just uttering the misrepresentation is protected free speech.

80

(Actors to it all the time. Duh.) 

 

Good bye all! I'm off to part the Red Sea. And bang Raquel Welch. I got these ideas from movies.

 

Which should I try first?

81 46

That's a distinct possibility.
I know there are some combos of convictions that could put him away until we have Spaceports on Venus, but some of the others seem kinda run of the mill white collar skullduggery with plenty of room for wrist slaps..
Whichever way it goes, he walks out today, is my bet.

82 ok, change the law. expand benefit to include public acclaim and notoriety.

83 I suspect that most, if not all vets will agree with those sentiments, especially those of us who endured that shitstorm from the left during and after the Vietnam War. Off the soapbox now. That beer sounds really good right now. Posted by: irongrampa at August 17, 2010 03:37 PM (ud5dN) Sounds good to me irongrandpa

84

It is illegal to impersonate a lawyer...for the purpose of fraud.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 17, 2010 03:30 PM (IkTb7)

Oh, and BTW this is just plain INCORRECT.  You cannot practice law without a license, even if you are the best, most honest, most competent person at law around.  There is no fraud involved.  You could win every case (or, as the actual cases have been, give all the correct legal forms and correct help filling them out) and still be prosecuted for "impersonating a lawyer", essentially.  No fraud, at all.  Just lawyers defending their turf and making lying about being a lawyer illegal - without fraud.

85 Of course, it's perfectly OK to abridge speech when it's just political speech.

Posted by: TexasJew at August 17, 2010 03:35 PM (o7kZZ)

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

86

 

I think Gabe said that as a joke. I hope so or else he has no business as a litigator.

Can you imagine sitting there as a defendant and hearing your attorney say that to a jury?

87 So you can get kicked out of the Military for wearing an award you are not entitled to. And as soon as you are out, you can just wear a whole chest of them and lie your ass off? Makes sense I guess

Have you noticed that one guy you can find in every bar who was in special forces?

88 34 Zimriel,

but building the victory mosque is?

so what other domestic terror organizations need to do is declare themselves Chruches to shoot this imaginary gap the leftbots have created?

89

BRETT FAVRE is gonna play!!!

Posted by: certoirari refused

The Croc industry is elated.

 

90

I heard that he was gonna 'phone it in'.

Well, he ain't gonna practice or play in any pre-season games, that's for sure.

Posted by: certoirari refused

 

I think that you missed a couple of threads. Where 'it' was clarified somewhat.

91

OT

A guy who works for me just told me he heard on the radio some guy in a truck load of ammo tired to shoot up the Dallas Police station, but his truck caught fire and he offed himself. I donno about casualties. But I wonder how long before the MFM once again attempts to pin it on the Teaparty.

92 So, Gabe, is it okay to lie and claim you're an FBI agent or a cop?

Depends.  At a bar, to impress a chick?  No.  On a job application?  Yes.

Here's what bothers me:
On July 23, 2007, at a joint meeting with a neighboring water district board, newly-seated Director Alvarez arose and introduced himself, stating “I’m a retired marine of 25 years. I retired in the year 2001. Back in 1987, I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. I got wounded many times by the same guy. I’m still around.”

So, how exactly is this not material benefit?  He's making a public statement as a politician so as to gain politically.  He's an elected (or appointed) official, for God's sake.  And it isn't a slip of the tongue or an exaggeration, it's a statement he knows to be false and blazingly so.  There are politicians who leave the "era" out of "Vietnam era" or play other games, but this is so over the top, it's almost pathetic.

93 Have you noticed that one guy you can find in every bar who was in special forces? Posted by: John Galt at August 17, 2010 03:39 PM (F/4zf) Or is running for Congress or using it on his resume at a University?

94

 

ohhhhh, you making a funny about Brett's pedo sexting...

ahhhh, okay

95 eman@54,

It's the government domain and not the private one I'm interested in here. The statement of qualification (i.e. military service and award) is a lie. Granted, it's a particular type of lie, but it's a lie nonetheless. Now the government has inserted the nose of the camel. Today, this lie is OK, that one isn't. Well, why not that one if this one is OK? I declare free speech!

It's a lie to separate oneself from others, presumably at the expense of others or to benefit oneself. No matter how applied, the lie is capitalizing on a particular situation - in the application I describe, employment or contract.

I just don't see how enabling this lie ends with "this lie and no other." By what legal justification? This Court just decided that a lie is OK under free speech protections. Well then, lying it shall be and the Court will arbitrarily choose an ever-forwarding, ever-expanding march of protections based on farce if not because of the nature of a "living document" but on the pressure applied by aggrieved clients who are the new victim class.

96 I'm off to part the Red Sea. And bang Raquel Welch. I got these ideas from movies.

Which should I try first?

They're the same thing, actually.

97

link to S510 bill.   You can read the summary or the whole bill.    Looks fairly harmless, but there is one part that refers to people that could cause some real issues, and considering it is up to Sebelius as to what it constitutes...well...

http://tiny.cc/58347

 

98

I don't mind the government not becoming involved in some douche lying about his service.

By the same token the government should not become involved if a vet publically  pummels the liar until he's unconcious.

99 So dressing like a police officer with a badge and gun, provided I have a carry permit, is part of my freedom of speech?  Good to know.

100

O/T so I get an e-mail from Markos Mousalitas (or however the fuck he spells that) and I'm thinking to myself "why the fuck is that little scrote licker e-mailing me?" before I realized I registered to make a comment during his R2K fiasco (links not included):

Burn the Witch,

Welcome to the Daily Kos action email list. You received this email either because you are a registered member of the Daily Kos community, or because you donated to a Daily Kos operated Act Blue page. To unsubscribe from this list, click here.

Today we're launching a campaign to end the filibuster. Join this campaign by clicking the link below and signing the petition that appears:

Ending the filibuster starts here!

Here's how signing the petition makes a difference.

We'll deliver the petition to every Democratic nominee for Senate and every returning Democratic Senator. When we do, we'll get them on record about whether they agree that the rules of the Senate can, and should, be changed with a simple majority vote on the first day of Congress next year.

Once 51 returning and potential Senators have come out in support, we'll have proven that changing Senate rules is possible with a simple majority vote.

Sign the petition, prove changer is possible!

Entrenched power players like Joe Lieberman, Max Baucus, Ben Nelson and Mary Landrieu have all depended on the filibuster to enable Republican obstructionism and water down progressive legislation. Corporate interests have used it to protect themselves by purchasing a few small state Senators on the cheap.

There's no bigger decision Senate Democrats will make next year. The Senate is where good legislation goes to die. Democrats can either change a system that allows a tiny unaccountable minority to thwart the will of the country, or they can continue being part of the problem.

Sign the petition, join the campaign!

Let's get started,

Markos Moulitsas

Founder, Daily Kos

101 I wonder if anyone from the Ninth Circuit ever went thru Basic Training, OCS, or even visited a Military base?

102 Well, he ain't gonna practice or play in any pre-season games, that's for sure.

Practice. We talkin bout practice.

103

 

ohhhhh, you making a funny about Brett's pedo sexting...

ahhhh, okay

Posted by: certoirari refused

"here's the snap, QB is gripping the ball(s), here's the attempt for the 'extra point! And it's goooooood.

104 So dressing like a police officer with a badge and gun, provided I have a carry permit, is part of my freedom of speech? Good to know. Posted by: kansas at August 17, 2010 03:43 PM (mka2b) Actually i think that is against the Law, as is maybe wearing the Uniform if you are not in the Military other than on Ceremonial Occasions.

105 Free speech means we all have the freedom to lie unless it directly harms someone or defrauds them of their property, or we are under oath.

Even if that makes us douchebags (which these stolen valor cats clearly are).

106

61  How about older guys talking dirty about what they would like do to your underage daughter to your underage daughter . 

thats not a first amendment issue, its a second amendment issue IYKWIMAITYD

107 Isn't knowingly misrepresenting yourself and/or your qualifications fraud?

108

I see no problem with this ruling.  Take away the fact that it is about the military and you have the government telling people what the turth is.  Do we really want to go down that road?

 

There are plenty of laws on the books to already prevent this  fraud, perjury  etc.   this law was nothing but a politcal law designed to win votes  and it ended up infringing the right to free speech.  And yes you do have a right to lie. 

It is the governments  job in court to PROVE you are lying.  Not to outlaw lying. 

this law is nothing more than more statism in action and the only reason the GOP is up in arms is because the politcians attached the word military to it.  

I really am tired of wedge issues.   No  self respecting American would support a law giving the government this type of power if it was not about the military. 

 

Besides society has ways of handling these types of people shame, a swift midnight beating, loss of employment  etc... 

 

Not everything need or requires a law to correct. 

 

Screw the statists in all forms  yes even the patrotic statists..

   

109 Sacred Honor compels me to confess that Nikki Haley really is "Reagan in a skirt."

110

117  okay then, lets get rid of all the libel and slander laws too

got to protect ourselves from the statists

111

I thought that was already part of the SVA although I havn't read it. Committing fraud is already illegal though anyway isn't it?

No, it's not part of the SVA. SVA says:

Whoever falsely represents himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the Armed Forces of the United States, any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration, or medal, or any colorable imitation of such item shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

No element of fraud. No requirement that it be for a benefit to get a conviction. That's the problem. And it shouldn't be a problem. As Amish writes above, these are all cases of douchebags telling lies abouts service medals to get something.

Also, some folks seem to think that the SVA makes it illegal for somebody to say they were in the military when they weren't. That's not true. The SVA is focused on the false claiming of military service awards, not the claiming of military service.

 

112

Not only am I president of the USA, I'm also King of the World.  Take that, bitches, yo.

113 "I will note that Justice Scalia is something of an absolutist in this area."

Absolutist? Would you have him be more "nuanced", depending on what the meaning of is, is? We have quite enough of that already, thank you.

More specifically to the "Stolen Valor" - it does me no injury for my bragging neighbor to say he won twenty medals or no medals. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

114

No element of fraud. No requirement that it be for a benefit to get a conviction. That's the problem.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 17, 2010 03:52 PM (IkTb7)

And if I start telling people that I can help them fill out bankruptcy forms or filling out wills and I charge them for it, I will be arrested, even if my work was impeccable and correct.

Please get off of this "fraud" hobby horse.  It's not all about fraud.  It's also about maintaining the integrity and trust society has in certain official positions.

You don't seem to understand this very simple point.  There is fraud (defending PEOPLE) and there is the defense of certain institutions which we deem important enough to be protected.  The SVA act is to protect the integrity of our service medals and their worth.  You might not think so, but the value of our service medals is important to the functioning of society.  More important than having lawyers certified - that's for sure.

115

Also, some folks seem to think that the SVA makes it illegal for somebody to say they were in the military when they weren't. That's not true. The SVA is focused on the false claiming of military service awards, not the claiming of military service.

 

Posted by: Gabriel Malor

 

That's the problem. It actually has a higher standard than impersonating a lawyer or policeman. if I appear on a street and tell people that I'm a cop, then I've broken the law, even if I never detained, questioned, frisked or 'arrested' anyone. People who have filled out legal forms correctly have been prosecuted for impersonating a lawyer. And yet, a specific claim to a prestigious title, made in a public setting , designed to impress and influence is merely free speech?  And is worthy of protection, while a cigarette ad on TV is not?

116 <i>Also, some folks seem to think that the SVA makes it illegal for somebody to say they were in the military when they weren't. That's not true. The SVA is focused on the false claiming of military service awards, not the claiming of military service.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor</i>

It's rather difficult to be in the military without receiving at least one award.

117 More specifically to the "Stolen Valor" - it does me no injury for my bragging neighbor to say he won twenty medals or no medals. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Posted by: FeralCat

 

If I make a decision based upon this information, then it may very well break my pokect or pick my leg. If I am told that one person on a water board is a former Marine and a holder of the Medal of Honor, and another had a cameo appearance in the Emily's list video, whose position am I more likely to adopt, especially as I am a former Marine (holder of the Marine Corps Reserve Medal)?

 

118 More specifically to the "Stolen Valor" - it does me no injury for my bragging neighbor to say he won twenty medals or no medals. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

It does, however, condemn you to live in an extremely insular world of only a few trusted individuals, as the society you live in claims as part of its highest ideals, the right of everyone to lie without consequence.

119

124  well put

and if i may add, lying about medals or even being a vet is allows fraud, because the scumbag is always trying to receive a sense of benefit from it

just the fact of the way veterans are viewed by society is an example because most people view us as have more values and self disipline

also, vets will almost always help out another vet just because we did the bullshit as a brotherhood (well, maybe not the airforce but they don't count, heh)

why else would someone lie about it?

 

120 It's rather difficult to be in the military without receiving at least one award.

Posted by: FeralCat

 

 I knew a crap load of people who managed to stagger through one enlistment without a single award. I received a grand total of one, unless you count a Meritorious Mast or Promotion (one of each). But then I served in a time of peace.

121 More specifically to the "Stolen Valor" - it does me no injury for my bragging neighbor to say he won twenty medals or no medals. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Posted by: FeralCat at August 17, 2010 03:57 PM (9kV1j

It's not his offense against you, or injury to you, but against the institution of military awards.

Of course, we live in a nation where no voter has standing to demand that the minimal Constitutional requirements of the President be checked - even though they have to have been checked at least once and should be easily available, even when there are non-Americans on the same ballot, showing clear proof that NO CHECKS were ever made.  That's the court system we are dealing with, here.

122

why are there laws coving the awarding of medals andribbons but we can't have one to protect them?

this is sickening

123 <blockquote>

If you believe him then you have been potentially harmed but that doesn't matter really because its the potential for the liar to benefit which is the issue to me.

Posted by: polynikes</blockquote>

I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night, and even if I did believe him, I don't see how that would harm me. If one goes by your second point every military officer would, by oath, be required to immediately arrest King Hussein Louie.

124 and why the hell can't i spell today?

125 If I lie about Obama, is that a crime? It's ok for the Feds to punish lying I don't like, but relax they will never punish any other type of lying.

126 134 not really, officers do not have arrest authority under article 2 of the UCMJ

127 136 Eman,

what do you think fishy.gov and the IRS are for....

at least with this you get to face your accuser.

128 137 navyCopaJoe,

an argument could be made that if O'bama presented a clear and present danger to the Republic and enough officials were angry enough at him he was impeached, convicted, and tried to no-sell it you could if necessary "arrest him"......

129 If one goes by your second point every military officer would, by oath, be required to immediately arrest King Hussein Louie.

Posted by: FeralCat at August 17, 2010 04:10 PM (9kV1j)

Oaths are totally meaningless in America, today ... in essence, because of decisions like this one.  The oath of citizenship that every naturalizing American must take starts out with:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;"

but, somehow, we get naturalized Americans who retain tons of other citizenships. 

I guess, in a nation where such official oaths are treated as nothing but meaningless utterances to be used for certain national rites, lying about everything is how it should be ...  Yep.

130 I do not think the Feds should punish lying. The fact that they may already do so does not make SVA a good law. You and I both want to punish these dirtbags. I want the Feds to stay out of it.

131

139  actually, as the commander in chief, he carries a military ID and is subject to the UCMJ and as per the UCMJ, he could be placed under military apprehension by a military cop

but as to if he is a threat to the republic, thats up to congress to determine

as much as it sucks, the man is the president and congress and the USSC is his only check and balance

132

My husband's brother stole all of my husband's info -- he found all his personal effects while my husband was in the Army the first time through.  He took my husband's military records and got into the VFW -- used that info for any and all benefits he could get from them (still does in fact, still goes to the VFW hall and tell "war stories"), and my husband is stuck with dealing with it and the dilemna of getting some justice or going through the legal and emotional rollercoaster of going after his own brother legally (which he won't do, because it's little brother).

And what I gather from all this is: my fuckstick, ratbastard bil had the right to do this, because of his right to free speech.

133

It does, however, condemn you to live in an extremely insular world of only a few trusted individuals, as the society you live in claims as part of its highest ideals, the right of everyone to lie without consequence.

Posted by: Adriane

Such a manner of thinking did not requite Thomas Jefferson to live in “an extremely insular world”. There is no “lie without consequence” as exposure is the consequence. The very idea of putting some blowhard in prison alongside murderers and rapists for saying they were awarded some medal is absurd, and frankly in my opinion un-American, something more to be expected from something like Islam. It’s not like we are talking about someone saying he is a board certified surgeon and operating on, and killing someone, when he never even went to med school.

134 142 PloyNikes(real nike shoes!),

O'Juggsy presents himself as just about the most retarded law professor(which check and see the difference between prof and lecturer) of all times....if that is not fraudulently portraying yourself as a lawyer don't know what is.

135

144  that sucks

but makes me wonder this.....

when these tools are caught lying about awards and service, why aren't they getting stomp fucked by a bunch of pissed off vets?

136 Free Alvin Greene! Showing porn to a random college girl while leaking enough pre-cum to float a destroyer is constitutionally protected free speech!

This just shows how racist our "justice" system is.

137 " If I am told that one person on a water board is a former Marine and a holder of the Medal of Honor, and another had a cameo appearance in the Emily's list video, whose position am I more likely to adopt, especially as I am a former Marine (holder of the Marine Corps Reserve Medal)?

 posted by: Blue Hen "

I don't know you or about you, but I am going to adopt, or not adopt,  positions that make sense, or don't make sense, to me regardless of how beautiful or ugly the messenger is.

BTW, Former Marine? I didn't think there was suppose to be any such thing.

138

148  also, why is it no one gets caught lying about being in the navy?  is there something wrongwith sailors?

we rock!!!!  or is it that we are so great that you know they would be lying?

139

BTW, Former Marine? I didn't think there was suppose to be any such thing.

lee harvey oswald

and alot say murtha

140

19 Display of medals, awards and badges for which you do not have orders is punishable under the UCMJ. Why should civilians be exempt?

 

Uh, because they didn't swear an oath of enlistment where they swore to support and defend the constitution of the United States and obey all regulations, orders, etc.......

141 "What, King Louie lied about military awards in order to receive either a tangible or intangible benefit?  Some many illogical comparisons, so little time. Posted by: polynike"

I don't know how you managed to do it, but you somehow manged to miss the point completely.

142 154 JohnnyReb,

I'd say putting on a medal should be treated "like enlisting and swearing the oath" then.....

143 This whole thing is frankly absurd, and on so many levels. If there should be prison time for saying one was awarded say even a Bronze Star, without V, why not prison time for saying one was say an O3 instead of an E3? That's a bigger difference and hence more of a lie. Why not prison time for saying one is a veteran when one did not even serve one day? Can't get anymore a 100% lie than that. Home Depot, for example,  gives 10% off if you are a veteran but nothing if you won any medals.

144

Some did.  The SVA is not just limited to people who never served.

Posted by: polynikes at August 17, 2010 04:32 PM (m2CN7)

Concur, but the original poster commented on why civilians are not subject to the UCMJ, and should be able to be prosecuted under that.

I did my 20 and a bit more and went into the Fleet Reserve where I was still subject to the UCMJ, but when I got my 30 year retirement certificate, I was no longer subject to the UCMJ.

145

I don't know you or about you, but I am going to adopt, or not adopt,  positions that make sense, or don't make sense, to me regardless of how beautiful or ugly the messenger is.

BTW, Former Marine? I didn't think there was suppose to be any such thing.

Posted by: FeralCat

 

You chose to misrepresent my point. I said that I would give greater weight to a fellow veteran who served honorably over someone who did not, with other factors being equal. That's part of the problem that the SVA was trying to resolve. You invented the crap about beauty and ugliness.

Former Marine is appropriate. 'Marine currently not on active duty' is a term that is fondly used, but is cumbersome. Technically, retired Marine might be correct, but that is used more properly for persons who have qualified to retire, in contrast to those who left before being eligible.

Foe one who supposedly does not care about words, you spend a great deal of time parsing those of others and inventing from whole cloth where they don't suit your needs.

146 Uh, because they didn't swear an oath of enlistment where they swore to support and defend the constitution of the United States and obey all regulations, orders, etc......

Thanks for proving my point. The civilian that buys a silver star off ebay has committed the same offense as Private General Ballduster McSoulpatch, who never served. It is a crime for one, but not the other. That's what the law was intended to redress. No shit, civilians aren't subject to the UCMJ.

So we should amend the UCMJ, right? So Private Ernest P. Dufflebag can just mosey on down to Clothing Sales and fill his cart up with Silver Stars and Purple Hearts, because fuckitall, right?

147

148  It's family (there are other vets in my husband's family; they just don't say anything, because it's family and little bro is politically well connected -- you'd end up in jail if something happened to the turd)...and he keeps me and the two eldest at a distance from "little bro, aka. miserable pos" at family gatherings.

Fortunately for all concerned, I only come within range of him 3 times a year, max.

148 "I may be wrong but I've got a feeling you no [know] nothing about the military.

Posted by: polynikes "

If so I sure fooled the Army pretty good many years ago, including a Major General, a Brigadier General and a couple of Full Birds, but then you may be a lot smarter than all of them.

149 So let me get this straight: perjury is now Constitutionally-protected speech?

150 "I have the right to claim I am the King of Norway
. Posted by: eman at August 17, 2010 03:07 PM"

A pleasure to meet you, King of Norway. Myself, I'm the Scarlet Pimpernel. I am also King George and the Queen of Spain.

151 I may be wrong but I've got a feeling you no [know] nothing about the military.

Posted by: polynikes "

If so I sure fooled the Army pretty good many years ago, including a Major General, a Brigadier General and a couple of Full Birds, but then you may be a lot smarter than all of them.

Posted by: FeralCat

 

A middle position is possible here. It is certainly possible, indeed, highly possible that one couuld be in the Army and yet know nothing about the military.

152 "A middle position is possible here. It is certainly possible, indeed, highly possible that one couuld be in the Army and yet know nothing about the military. Posted by: Marine not currently on active duty at August 17, 2010 05:04 PM "

I suppose but you probably wouldn't want to do that with an 1193.

153 I guess my awards don't mean shit to this country. I guess the mothers and fathers with nothing but a flag and a group of medals on the mantle instead of a son or daughter should be happy that the 9th circuit didn't rule that displaying them in the home offended someone.

FUCK THE LAW! I WANT JUSTICE!

154 So...impersonating an officer is free speech?

Sweeeeeeeeet.

155 I really don't care.

Seriously.

With Marxists running wild in Washington setting fire to the constitution and selling my great-grandchildren into indentured servitude, I'm really not all that broken up over a bunch of fake veterans wearing other people's medals and making up stories about 'Nam.

There are bigger fish to fry and more important issues to worry about.

156 This is all sounding Talmudic and right out of Orwell's 1984.

"Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?" No. I'm allowed to lie now because its now supported by the Supreme Court.

This now means that our laws are meaningless. This is a example of the destruction of our Constitutional Republic and the rule of Law. Ah, by the way, The Patriot Act is clearly Marshal Law. The U.S. Constitution has been buried by the same people, like Vice President Biden, who when asked by a man who owns a small sandwich shop that if Biden could do something about lowing his taxes. The microphone picked up Biden's reply, "You can kiss my ass."

The enemy is within.  A Vet.

157
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159 I trust on supreme courts decision on freedom of speech

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