1 As a parent, let me assure you that my daughters can have sex after the honeymoon.  Four years after.

2 Wow good post. Be a parent, not your kid's buddy.  They'll thank you later.

3 What's wrong with sex at age 11 ?

4 Is it so important you always put the maximum possible distance between yourselves and those dreaded, crochtty, Footloose-dance-banning anti-sex conservatives?

Yes. This is why many of us feel that liberalism is a mental disorder.

5

Posted by: LibertarianJim at February 02, 2010 03:26 PM (PReJ3)

Thread's over.  No point to go on.

6 "You don't always just have to take a position contrary to us just to prove you're superior." That would help out a lot today. I really think that it has come to this, the moment one party say's one thing, the other almost trips on itself to set up an counter view Do not tell me that all 59 senators feel that Obama care should pass as is.

7

Sarah Palin represents abstinence only and she is a failure of a mother, proof positive that we have to sex-ed up our kids in kindergarden because her daughter had a kid (or several). 

 

8
What's wrong with telling girls to keep their legs closed and boys to keep their puds in their pants, anyway?

9 Abstinence, like tax cuts, works every time it's tried.

10 Palin's daughter got pregnant at 17, right? I mean -- today, that's charmingly prudish. No, she apparently didn't always practice safe sex. Kids don't. ADULTS don't, for crying out loud. That's why we discourage kids from having sex for as long as possible. Because they ARE going to get pregnant, and then the only alternatives is too-young motherhood or abortion. I get that they claim abortion isn't a big deal but, come on -- even if you're pro-choice, it's a BIG DEAL.

11
Ya can't get pregnant playing corn-hole.

12

This is something I cannot get, myself.

They are also in favour of unfettered abortion on demand, any time in a pregnancy, as often as you want, and (preferably) with the state picking up the tab, and favour it to weed out retards and cripples (see Britain for this policy in action) while claiming that "no one really wants abortion and we wish the need for them would end tomorrow." So, SOP.

13 You guys SUCK!

14 Actually, ace, I think deep down the Commiecrats *know very well* what they are doing. The more they can sex up kids at younger and younger ages, the more welfare baby mamas they can breed.

15 Well this changes everything! (just kidding, we're still going to promote fist-ing in junior high and masturbation to kindergartners).

16 How dare you challenge established liberal orthodoxy with facts!

You wait. They're going to find out that someone involved in this study had sex as a teenager. Hypocrites!

17 I'm all for abstinence.

18

I didn't mind scaring the crap out of the many boyfriends that came by over the years either. Nothing overt or rude, I just left them all with the impression that I was quite serious.

Fear is a useful tool if employed properly.

19 Ace ( and others Unknown ), liberals NEVER 'square the circle':  They never complete what might seem at first like a logical intelligent argument.  At some point ( usually right away or soon afterwards ) their 'reasoning' deteriorates into ideology, talking points, and anti-conservative  Several Minutes of Hate

Ideology usually makes you stupid and the Left is increasingly ideological, so we are increasingly dealing with a Mass Movement of Idiots who still think they're smarter than everyone else:  The True Morons truly believe that conservatives and libertarians are morons, and the irony is so thick you could skate on it

And now they have a pseudo-Messiah and the control of the national government. If we let them, they will ruin us, ruin this nation, and do so much damage that we won't recover--not for many years, or ever.

No more arguing with libs!!!!!!!!!!!!  Start with castration, then work from there......

20 And deep down, the Commiecrats also want to push the nanny state deeper into family matters--and what a better way to do it than to throw some sexual dynamite into the mix.

21 Actually it's not just that they think Conservatives are anti-sex. Liberals worry that if they criticize sex in anyway then people might think they aren't getting any. So they are losers and they want everybody to be miserable too. Meanwhile some 23 year old is banging their 14 year old daughter every day after school and 3 times on Saturady. But, she isn't a loser who can't get a guy or something.

22 @1 Furthermore, I don't even understand the point. Kids are curious about sex. I knew all about rubbers and The Pill and crabs and the clap of the rest of it well before I even had a chance to kiss a girl.

C'mon, Ace.  We all know hookers don't let you kiss them

Never heard of GFE?

23 Abstinence, never heard of it

24 | You guys SUCK!

Shut up and go masturbate until your eighteen, like I did.

25

Isn't Joycelyn Elders the world's foremost expert on juvenile pudd pulling? What does that renowned oracle have to say???

/mega snark

26 "you can't break a kid if he sets his mind to rebel and resist" -- oh thee of little faith

27
I really hate the argument that kids are gonna do it anyway so we might as well just teach them the 'how-to's' and how to be safe.

I'm a big proponent of ignorance. Seriously. I truly believe ignorance is bliss. No need to dump the burden of sex onto a child. Let them be innocent and young for as long as possible.

28 You don't always just have to take a position contrary to us just to prove you're superior.

Word. I call this the 'Fuck tha PO-lice' effect. IMHO, I think there's a lot of revisionism going on since the 60's about how 'punk' or 'rebellious' they actually were back in the day. It's easier to do when you have a job in academia/journalism/the 'arts'/etc, where that can be worn as a badge of honor. The rest of us, who have actually had to work for a living, know different.

"Yeah, I'm cool. I hate republicans who try to censor my rock music (cough...Tipper Gore...cough) and shit. Bush is a war criminal because he broke the law of the the government of the United Nations. My age? Forty-two, why do you ask?"

Or another way to put it is that conservatives are the 'grown-ups'.

/rant off

29 I get that they claim abortion isn't a big deal but, come on -- even if you're pro-choice, it's a BIG DEAL.

It is:  It haunts both would-have-been-parents for the rest of their lives.  All those possibilities, all that potential happiness and accomplishment--all gone with no 'do-overs'.  What would have been a human life is gone and you can only wonder and imagine What Would Have Been. 

30

They do not say the things you are arguing they should say because they are afraid that if they do, then their moral authority will be in question, and they worry that will lead to the christian conservatives saying they should not be having sex outside of marriage.  That is the only reason they promote this.

Yes, you are correct in the implication being they are willingly sacrificing their children for their own guilt free pleasure seeking.  It is their nature and they will not change if they haven't yet.

31 || You guys SUCK!

|Shut up and go masturbate until your eighteen, like I did.


Oh, was I supposed to QUIT then?

32

But because they're all agitated and angry about "anti-sex conservatives" they keep supporting this dangerous nonsense anyway.

It's amazing how far a leftwing/moonbat/liberal/Democrat will go spite a conservative. They'll poison the minds of children, kill the unborn, promote sexual disorders, and even sabotage a war effort and thus kill our soldiers.

33 Er, Ace did you get a mail order law degree?

I mean, are you getting paid by the word?  or have you switched from valu rite to meth? 

You've had some rather long rants lately.  It is hard for the old morons to read that much shit.  Can you give us a Reader's Digest version?

34 How about squaring this circle:  libs support zero tolerance for drugs, to the point that they will arrest students for taking tylenol while on campus, while at the same time trying to allow these same kids to get an abortion without parental/guardian/adult consent.  What?  Nevermind the pro-anti-abortion part.  How are these beliefs consistent?

35 Fear is a useful tool if employed properly.

Cleaning your guns at the kitchen table when they come over is one thing.

Having a shovel leaning against the counter at the same time is probably over doing it.

36

How about squaring this circle:  libs support zero tolerance for drugs, to the point that they will arrest students for taking tylenol while on campus, while at the same time trying to allow these same kids to get an abortion without parental/guardian/adult consent.  What?  Nevermind the pro-anti-abortion part.  How are these beliefs consistent?

Nanny statist power. It is really simple as that. I call them Commiecrats for a reason, although the rhetorical pizzazz is nice too.

37 Ace:

One of the reasons you are incredulous is that you are thinking along mainstream, common sense moral lines.  It all makes sense when you ponder that the only way socialism/communism can take deep root is through the breakdown of all existing social moral orders.  Stalin didn't blow up churches because he was a pyro.  This is about remaking society.  The lefty chick you referred to is just a useful idiot.

38 I think a big divider in politics is that liberals tend to think as teenagers and conservatives as parents. A lot of this crap is like liberals saying "Hey, I thought it was AWESOME Janet Jackson showed a nipple at the superbowl!" Well, bully for you. I kinda liked it to. I like nipples and I even like shock-value stuff. But we are not setting up a society to JUST have optimal utility for sexually-active hipster adults without other obligations or the need to care and protect children. We are trying to make a society that is best for the most, and that includes thinking of kids, and thinking of parents, who are worried about their kids. On so many of these issues I just think that liberals are thinking purely as teenagers who are nothing about freedom of action for themselves. And I sort of understand that-- I feel that way a lot, too. But adults, who should have full freedom, are not the only people in this society. We don't need and shouldn't want, for example, a sexual thunderdome in the public square where anything goes.

39 God made leftards so that intelligent people could use them as cannon fodder in various necessary campaigns. They have no other practical use.

40
C'mon, Ace.  We all know hookers don't let you kiss them.

WINNAR!

41

Leftards should soon replace lab rats in medical experiments. They have the advantage that you don't tend to get attached to them...

/s

42

@ 18 I'm all for abstinence.

Dude.  Thread over.

43 #39 Ace: Yada yada yada. Hey, you want a copy of my guide for junior high school students on the best gay bars to pick up older men? Cause, you know, I'm all about keeping the students safe.

44

I think a big divider in politics is that liberals tend to think as teenagers

The rank and file "useful idiots" do, but as Herr Morganholz pointed out, the leaders know exactly what they are doing.

and conservatives as parents.

No objections there. Actions, consequences and all that.

45 Re the dingbat who couldn't square the circle:

It's not about logic. She's like all liberals: subjugate the masses through bad policy while doing the opposite herself. More spoils for her.

Cf. the Clintons advising people to "give" and "sacrifice" while Chelsea becomes a hedge fund manager. Etc.

46 And that liberals are taken with this idiotic idea that kids are just "Little Adults."

Heh. I actually had an America-hating Anthropology/American Studies (go figure) professor who seriously believed children should have equal status in society as adults. He preached that children should be able to vote, and have all rights and freedoms that adults do, since they have better judgment and are just as rational. It was only our "cultural norms" that created the "children as lesser beings" mythology.

47

There were two major items that kept kids from having sex in the old days. First was community pressure under the taboos that viewed unwed mothers in a bad light.

Second was the fincial burdens imposed when pregnancy occurred, either through early shotgun weddings or through child support.

We removed the first barrier in starting in the 60s with the beginning of "free love" and we removed the second in the late 60s with LBJ's great society.

There is little we can do to restore things to the way they were until we undo those two items.

48
Word, ace.

And the notion that conservatives are pent up prudes is horseshit. The liberals think they're so fucking smart but they're stupid.

It was written a long long time ago...

To everything there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven...

49

I had a date last week that would subscribe to this memo--he was a....wait for it....35 year old virgin _{big Jerry Seinfeld not that there's anything wrong with that. moment.}

(I would wait for the ONT for that one but (a) it's topical and (b) I'll be in bed by 8pm tonight!)  

 

50

Yada yada yada. Hey, you want a copy of my guide for junior high school students on the best gay bars to pick up older men?

Cause, you know, I'm all about keeping the students safe.

And so many schools are suddenly sprouting "Gay-Straight Alliances". The agenda is on the march....

51 Wow, Tim #50!  Quoting the bible, and quoting a man who wrote the book (literally) on how to seduce your wife.  Awesome stuff!

52 Abstinence programs should be directed at women only.

I wish they were directed at boys only. And men. But I repeat myself.

53 On so many of these issues I just think that liberals are thinking purely as teenagers who are nothing about freedom of action for themselves.

Remember the Bob Zimmerman "Dylan" song, "Forever Young"?  It's the Libard Anthem:  Their equivalent to 'Amazing Grace' and Star-Spangled Banner rolled into one big Blunt.  It's the key to Understanding Your Liberal Co-Workers and Associates.  Read the lyrics; Dylan used to end his concerts with this puke-inducing juvenile shit.

They're frozen in time, each lib Stuck on Sixteen:  Still playing with themselves while believing that the world revolves around them.

54
More sex at a younger age means more unwanted pregnancies.
More unwanted pregnancies mean a greater demand for abortions.
More demand for abortions means a greater demand for Democrats who will appoint judges who that ensure that Roe v. Wade is never overturned.
Which means more activist judges who will shove leftist policies down our throat.

You get rid of those unwanted pregnancies and you destroy the rationale for denying the appointment of judges who aren't going to read their political viewpoints into the Constitution.

55

Well, for your information, I requested several million dollars of stimulus funds for just such a thing. It will be big in San Fransico.

Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at February 02, 2010 03:54 PM (V9SYy)

And the leftists can't even get *that* right. Private sector "bath houses" were already going gangbusters in San Fransicko over three decades ago.

56
Dan, you sound intriguing and cause me to desire to read your periodical, if you have one.

57 I think that Evan Sayet had it right in his famous rant.  The left believes that the only sin is discrimination and discriminating good choices from bad choices leads to Auschwitz.   (Mr. Sayet's version, Regurgitating the Apple, was considerably longer and a whole lot better.  If you haven't heard it, you really should listen to it.)

58

He preached that children should be able to vote, and have all rights and freedoms that adults do, since they have better judgment and are just as rational.

He is right up to a point. In agragrian societies during ages past, children became "adults" much sooner. Girls got married at an early age not much past puberty and boys were out doing the work of men by the time they reached 16.

But that doesn't mean that 8 year olds should be entering contracts and voting.

59 57 Oh, no no. The date was past tense, hence the "was". He still is I assume. Thank God it was coffee.

60 I pretty sure all the girls I dated in High School took an obstinance program.

61 Compare and contrast:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." ---John Quincy Adams

"Rainbow Party!!"-- 13-year-old girl in skin tight t-shirt with "Sperm Gurgling Princess" emblazoned on it in glitter.

This is raw politics.  Nothing more or less. 

62 Is it just me or is this admin. fucked up in the testa?

63

That was good.

I've always hated that attitude, "Well, they're doing it anyway."  I always figured it was the rancid people who were "doing it anway" when they were kids who were saying that--and universalizing their own experience.  Universalization, a handy trick to make you feel better about yourself, among other things.  But I think the social status marker Ace alludes to is the better explanation.  It is, again, about superiority. 

Notice how often this shit comes back around to the superior self-view?  Blow writes about how the Donk message is just too complicated (not for him--for the little, inferior people).  That little rat-man, Joe Klein writes about people being too stupid to know what's in their best interest. (And a smart person like him does know what's in their best interest.)  The Donk message is rejected, and it's because people just don't understand (like they do).  Some people really, really have a need to feel superior to those relegated to "the out-group."  It's an essential part of their makeup.  They go back to it constantly.

It must be weird to be dominated and driven by primitive R-complex urges, needs, and/or thought processes to that degree.

64 So glad I never sired a daughter, I think!

65

I had a date last week that would subscribe to this memo--he was a....wait for it....35 year old virgin _{big Jerry Seinfeld not that there's anything wrong with that. moment.}

(I would wait for the ONT for that one but (a) it's topical and (b) I'll be in bed by 8pm tonight!)  

 

 

And I'm guessing not with  him!

66 Seems like a lot of our modern problems would go away if we could simply bring back public shaming.

Problem is we have a big segment of society that feels no shame.

67
Has anyone noticed that every single Conservative position is always eventually proved right?

We're right about everything. And the Left is wrong about everything. Every. Thing.

68 "So glad I never sired a daughter, I think!"

You don't know what you're missing.

69 I say bring back the stocks!

70

That little rat-man, Joe Klein

who wrote "Primary Colors", but could not admit it. Rodent indeed.

71

I think a big divider in politics is that liberals tend to think as teenagers and conservatives as parents. 

Or maybe another way of saying that is liberals are all about freedom, while conservatives are ALSO about responsibility.  As you say, it's not like conservatives are against sex.  They just recognize it as one of the most powerful motivators in the human psyche and would like to be cautious about how it's treated.

72 In a public square, and watch out for that town crier fucking pedo that he is!

73 How about squaring this circle:  libs support zero tolerance for drugs, to the point that they will arrest students for taking tylenol while on campus, while at the same time trying to allow these same kids to get an abortion without parental/guardian/adult consent.  What?  Nevermind the pro-anti-abortion part.  How are these beliefs consistent?

Suspected of bringing Tylenol to school=Get strip searched by the school nurse.
Suspecting being pregnant=Get the morning after pill from school nurse.
Knowing you're going to get bonked by the football team after homecoming=Get BC pills and free condoms from school nurse.

74

Only about a third of sixth- and seventh-graders who completed an abstinence-focused program started having sex within the next two years,

OMG

Sixth graders are ELEVEN years old. A THIRD of them are having sex by the end of EIGHTH grade?

My dad isn't happy I'm having it now and I've been married 25 years.

 

75

Funny how the one time that liberals don't want to tell someone else what to do is when it happens to be in the parent/child relationship.

Libeal Caricature:  Did you know that your daughter is secretly stopping by Braums on the way home from school and getting a Double-Dip Peanut Butter Hot Fudge Sundae?  Her irresponsible behavior will ultimately ruin us all when she becomes overweight and drains off precious resources from the healthcare industry!

Also, did you know that she runs the water while she brushes her teeth, and that she lets her car idle while hanging out the window and talking to her friends in the parking lot?  Gaia weeps!

Lastly, she told us that you monitor what she wears out, constrain her to a curfew, and never once let her boyfriend spend the night.  Who do you think you are, Stifles McPrudington?  Let the girl rut!

76 Leftards hate children and those who have them. They should never be given a say or paid any heed to on the subject of children. Ever.

77

The problem here, and someone  may have already said this, sorry didn't read all the posts, is that mothers these days want to be all Gilmore Girls with their daughters. Mothers thought it was hip that Oprah taught them that their kids werer "tossing salad" a few years back. Better to understand what they're doing and talk it out rather than just locking their kids up and saying, no way in hell you're going out with that boy.

Some of these women acted outraged their kids could be performing that act. However, bet your bottom dollar, they are the first ones taking their 14 year old girls to Victoria Secret to buy inappropriate thongs because "all the girls are wearing Victoria Secret pink products, Mom!! Sheesh".

I thank God every day my Mother was actually a mother.

78 70 Seems like a lot of our modern problems would go away if we could simply bring back public shaming.

Problem is we have a big segment of society that feels no shame.

 

We've been shameless for years, unfortuantely.  One of my first realizations of this was when Marion Berry got caught with that hooker and instead of being ashamed was all defiant and in full "The Bitch Set me Up!" mode.  Then we he got elected once he got out of jail, that was just unbelievable.  If there was any shame in America, he would have quietly gone away once his sentence was done. 

79
Remember the Saturday morning show KIDS ARE PEOPLE TOO?

No, they're not people. They're stupid little people who need grown-ups to teach them right from wrong.

80 Has anyone noticed that every single Conservative position is always eventually proved right? -- It isn't that they are proved right, they have been nurtured and fine-tuned over several thousand years of social and political development. Do the free love liberals think that loose social mores haven't been tried before, do they stop to think about what happens to an economy when government is all about bread and circuses for urban mob - been there, tried that.

81

We don't need and shouldn't want, for example, a sexual thunderdome in the public square where anything goes.

The annual Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco.

Just saying.

82 84, Well I'm ashamed of this kenyan and that butt ugly wifey that has an ass as wide as two 2x4's!

83

I've always rather been of the opinion that I don't want my kids learning about sex at school or through some program, period. I don't care if it's the liberal, safe sex crap or the conservative, abstinence program. I really think that should be something parents have a responsiblity to do.

Sadly, most parents aren't acting much more adult than teenagers anymore -- and what is really distressing is the whole "hip, cool" Mom and Dad thing.  People, parents aren't supposed to be hip, nor cool -- by default we're supposed to be old fuddy duddies; just embrace it for fuck sakes.  Ditto with being your kids' "friend" (cough, bullshit, cough).

I never pushed abstinence only on my kids, nor did I push sex ed.  We breed animals -- my kids kinda get where babies come from and how they are made from an early age by proxy.  No biggie; it's a natural thing -- and just as with the animals, I've pointed out that there is a responsible and an irresponsible way to bring life into the world, and there is a time to "man up" and responsibly deal with life's accidents (sometimes breedings with the animals don't go off quite as planned, but nonetheless the errant product is coming into the world, and you are responsible for that life/lives).  I made sure they knew what birth control was and what making a responsible choice was, and that once they left my house at 18 they were adults, capable of making their own decisions but bound to the consequences of those decisions by themselves, as adults.  Seems to have worked so far. 

I get annoyed that we can't seem to understand that until a person actually experiences the whole sex, birth, life, death thing -- in all its fascinating, beautiful, ugly, sad, joyous, wonderful entirety -- there is no way for that person to fully comprehend it.  That's what's missing from any sex program for kids imho -- you can preach to them about anything and everything...but the most important factor is missing, and that's the magic of it all, and that can't be taught secondhand.

84 Abstinence programs should be directed at women only.

I wish they were directed at boys only. And men. But I repeat myself.

Posted by: arhooley at February 02, 2010 03:54 PM (B/dEP)

You are wishing against nature.  The males are not wired to avoid any kind of sex that's offered.  Females in most species are wired to be choosey.  Except it seems now in the human species.  Once sex became mostly about enjoyment instead of reproduction, we lost that nature safety net.    

Posted by: polynikes at February 02, 2010 04:02 PM (m2CN7)

I am a woman and I have 3 sons + a husband and two brothers. I agree with arhooley. I think girls need a good hard slap. They need to have some self respect and realize men are pigs. PIGS. They are now, were then, and always have been. Even animals know this. Most of the animal kingdom struts it's males around with extra fur or feathers or whatnot to impress the female. She is supposed to choose.

85 Saw this in my morning paper.  First thought:  "They taught 12 year-olds about safe sex!  And then expected them NOT to try out what they learned?!! WTF??"  Only in unicorn rainbow land would that be considered a good idea.  Fughwitz. 

86 25% of all American teenage girls now have venereal disease or HIV.

Ain't it grand, libbies? Way to go!

87 dagny - you need to remember most of that third are boys saying they are having sex. I would have told the survey the same thing at that age.

88 88, Let the kids see the drooping basketballs of of that old hippie on display, gotta love SF.

89 It's possible that lefty feminist really does think it's ok for kids to have sex but she's afraid to say so.

90 #38

THIS.

91

We've been shameless for years, unfortuantely.  One of my first realizations of this was when Marion Berry got caught with that hooker and instead of being ashamed was all defiant and in full "The Bitch Set me Up!" mode.  Then we he got elected once he got out of jail, that was just unbelievable.  If there was any shame in America, he would have quietly gone away once his sentence was done. 

Ah, but the Leftists cry "Waah! That's racist! You're demanding that Mr. Berry act white!"

Sex is just one angle for the Commiecrats. Race is another.

92 We don't need and shouldn't want, for example, a sexual thunderdome in the public square where anything goes.

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Reminds me of Joel McHale's joke about Khloe and Khourtney Kardashian being like MasterBlaster.

93

Not so.  Welfare offices register a lot of new D voters, after all.

I disagree that they do not hate children. They do hate them. Children are to be used through shit policies and lack of parenting to become non thinking drones to the government. Once they are old enough to vote, and vote for who they are told to vote for, they are useful, but still despised and looked down on by the leftards, who only wish to enslave them and use them for their own ends.

94

"Shut up and go masturbate until your eighteen, like I did."

You'll need the practice for when you're married and have several small children who, when presented with a locked bedroom door, will simply start knocking on it until a) you open it or b) their knuckles bleed...

95

Leftards hate children and those who have them.

Not so.  Welfare offices register a lot of new D voters, after all.

 

It's a weird disconnect really.  Dems wouldn't have to legalize illegal aliens or trawl for new voters in cemetaries and prisons if they just stopped pushing the whole abortion industry.  Isn't it like almost 1.5 million babies are aborted a year?  (40 million since abortion was legalized)  I bet the vast majority would have grown up to vote Democrat.

96 49

There were two major items that kept kids from having sex in the old days. First was community pressure under the taboos that viewed unwed mothers in a bad light.

Second was the fincial burdens imposed when pregnancy occurred, either through early shotgun weddings or through child support.

We removed the first barrier in starting in the 60s with the beginning of "free love" and we removed the second in the late 60s with LBJ's great society.

There is little we can do to restore things to the way they were until we undo those two items.

Ding ding ding! We have a winnah!

There are consequences to actions. When our social mores changed, it meant that things like premarital sex became OK. Because hippie "tolerance" is the greatest virtue of all.

Is this helping society? No.

Is it helping the individuals involved? No.

Can this change?

I don't know.

97 Instead of telling the children to get out of the street, the welfare moms tell their children to dodge the cars and go get me some cigarettes! While they sit on their fats asses and collect odumbass free money, yes it is happening all over our great Country!

98 We don't need and shouldn't want, for example, a sexual thunderdome in the public square where anything goes.

Brings a whole new meaning to "Two men enter, one man leaves!"

99 The key to abstinence education is simply letting kids know that not everybody is banging at 12.  How many teenage boys lie to their friends to hide their secret shame of virginity? 

In high school, the eye opener for me was reading the surveys that revealed the majority of my peers were still virgins.   I assumed the "virgin at 16" percent was down in the single digits.  That's where the peer pressure comes in.

100 80

Only about a third of sixth- and seventh-graders who completed an abstinence-focused program started having sex within the next two years,

OMG

Sixth graders are ELEVEN years old. A THIRD of them are having sex by the end of EIGHTH grade?

Is there a 'racial breakdown' of this stat, along with a 'socio-economic' factor?  

Are children living in poverty, disproportionally non-White & non-Asian, the ones having sex & babies earlier?  If so, can The White Man be blamed?  Has this been reversed during the past year and two weeks? 

101 damnit, someone always beats me to it, I fail at interwebz

102 Pron is everywhere, including your 12 year old's thumb drive. Ignorance is much less likely than you wish, Ace. Also, could some of the resistance/resentment to abstinence teaching be related to it being promoted through Bush with his Faith Based Initiative? Using tax dollars to fund religious group activities had a anti-constitutional feel to it. Just sayin'. This study was on kids that were not just being taught it as a religious dogma morality play. They were being given factual information about the many dangers.
 
No doubt every parent should be having honest discussions with their kids as they near/cross puberty about the many hazards of teen sex. But some parents just suck at their parenting job.

103
Why is the Left is so hot to get open homosexuality in the US military?
They know it will weaken our military and further weaken our western society.

Our military is already turning into a Jobs Program, and now they want to shackle it with the constraints of political correctness.

104 dagny - you need to remember most of that third are boys saying they are having sex. I would have told the survey the same thing at that age.

Posted by: Jean at February 02, 2010 04:09 PM (QFzyw)

Yeah, but they aren't having it with 25 year olds, except in florida high schools.

My post came off  (Heh) wrong. I love men and I love how they are but I don't think they have the power to refuse themselves sex unless 1. they already have a place to get it, or 2. there is some type of deterrant; a child, a shotgun, a beating, a disease, etc.

Women need to know that sex does not equal love. They do not respect you in the morning, quite the opposite, and that they don't always have any emotional attachment to their partner.

105 Where a parent draws the line is up to that parent (and up to the kid, quite frankly -- you can't break a kid if he sets his mind to rebel and resist).

No.  Every kid "sets his mind to rebel and resist" - to a point.  The point to which different kids are willing to go may vary, but that does not put the limit in the hands of the kid, unless the parents are willing to concede it.

106

 I get that they claim abortion isn't a big deal but, come on -- even if you're pro-choice, it's a BIG DEAL.

It is:  It haunts both would-have-been-parents for the rest of their lives.  All those possibilities, all that potential happiness and accomplishment--all gone with no 'do-overs'.  What would have been a human life is gone and you can only wonder and imagine What Would Have Been. 

Ehh.  I'm not so sure about that.  I was having a conversation with a woman a couple of weeks ago.  At one point in her life (years ago) she had become a junkie.  She started to get her shit together and was on methadone.  It was at this time she became pregnant.

Well, for a number of reasons I won't get into, she didn't want to have a baby at this point in her life.  For her, in retrospect, yes it was a big deal.  She's made a certain peace with her decision and she's moved on.

However, she related her experience at the clinic to me.  She said there were women there that were on their third and fourth abortions.  They wore it on their sleeves like it was something to be proud of.  Either it was no big deal to these women or it was a convincing display of false bravado.

107

"Shut up and go masturbate until your eighteen, like I did."

You'll need the practice for when you're married and have several small children who, when presented with a locked bedroom door, will simply start knocking on it until a) you open it or b) their knuckles bleed...

Posted by: reason at February 02, 2010 04:12 PM (kZVsz)

Is that you honey?

108
We are at a time in our nation's history where a tv commercial with a mom telling people how happy she is she gave birth to her son is controversial.

109 Well, this is a nail in the coffin for abstinence stuff.  Libs only like stuff that doesn't work.  Hey, anyone got some more of that sweet Keynesism?

110

No doubt every parent should be having honest discussions with their kids as they near/cross puberty about the many hazards of teen sex. But some parents just suck at their parenting job.

And the schools do surrogate parenting oh so well.

111 I have no problem with homo's as long as they want to live that way, however it will never be popular in the Military no matter how many laws they pass, that's just reality from a retired Military Infantry Man.

112 who wrote "Primary Colors", but could would not admit it. Rodent indeed.


FIFY

Big difference between "could not" which implies an ethical choice, vs "would not" which is much more venal and dishonest in that situation.

113 Private sector "bath houses" were already going gangbusters in San Fransicko over three decades ago.

Until I showed up, that is. Suck it, bitches.

114

The important thing that needs to be understood is how this is supposed to fit in "the narrative", because as I understand "the narrative", this doesn't fit.

Just sayin'

115 Abstinence? Fuck that.



can't believe no one posted that one yet.

116

Men are pigs? Well, yeah, I suppose.

Example: My wife forced me to take anti-nausea pills and sit through a program on Lifetime. Nearly killed me but she said I needed to learn more about love.

When it was over, I switched the channel over to HBO that had an adult show. The wife announced she would not watch that stuff and started to walk out of the room. I said "you need to watch this, and learn about love!"

She said "That's not love, it's sex!"

To which I replied: "What's the difference?"

117

Women need to know that sex does not equal love. They do not respect you in the morning, quite the opposite, and that they don't always have any emotional attachment to their partner.

Yup. Mammas need to be telling their girls that (a) the guy will most likely leave them after the dirty deed and (b) it won't even be good until they're much older.

Sadly girls don't seem to be receptive to consequences of teenage pregnancy or disease.

But tell them they'll be lonley and heartbroken when the little turd dumps them, that may work.

118 Down deep libs are just communist hippies of the mindset of the 60's, they lost then and they will lose now, America seems to be on to them again.

119

You'll need the practice for when you're married and have several small children who, when presented with a locked bedroom door, will simply start knocking on it until a) you open it or b) their knuckles bleed...

Posted by: reason at February 02, 2010 04:12 PM (kZVsz)

And why can a guy "finish" in this situation but not a woman. What genetic f-up was that? Spreading the cave man genes and all that crap, I guess.

120 @90 Unknown Jane...that was perfect.  Well said.

121

We are at a time in our nation's history where a tv commercial with a mom telling people how happy she is she gave birth to her son is controversial.

In 1969, when my mother was giving birth to my younger brother, her fourth and last child, there were eco-fiends going on and on about over population, and a couple eco-fiends even brought up the subject with my mom, she recalls.

Today, the decent modern Judeo-Christian (and in fairness, often Shinto and Buddhist) world is below replacement level, while the schimitar swinging, suicide bombing, clitoris chopping savages are breeding like vermin. The eco-fiends are just fine with the latter.

What does this tell you?

Maybe I'm paranoid, but as I opined about Ace's discussion about abstinence with presumably a twat over at Feministe or Pandagon or some such blog, I honestly think it's not leftist stupidity. It is leftist *treason*.

I mean, they are so much smarter and more educated than us, right?

122 For liberals, it's always been whatever makes them feel "cool" at the moment.

How Bonnie, Clyde And Pauline Gunned Down Middlebrow Culture at Ed Driscoll.

  "Kael assumed she was safe to defend the choices of mass audiences because the old standards of taste would always be there. They were, after all, built into the culture. ... Schrader argued that she and her admirers won the battle but lost the war. Acceptable taste became mass-audience taste, box-office receipts the ultimate measure of a film's worth, sometimes the only measure. Traditional, well-written movies without violence or special effects were pushed to the margins. "It was fun watching the applecart being upset," Schrader said, "but now where do we go for apples?""

  "As the above article concludes, "Not long before she died, Pauline Kael remarked to a friend, 'When we championed trash culture we had no idea it would become the only culture.'"

123

Yup. Mammas need to be telling their girls that (a) the guy will most likely leave them after the dirty deed and (b) it won't even be good until they're much older.

I told my son not to take the virginity of his hot little 15 year old girlfriend because of several reasons but also because it would be bad for her and she would remember the asshole that did it for the rest of her life. That actually seemed to strike a chord.

124 I'm always skeptical of studies, it seems they're usually more driven by the intent of the activist group behind them than genuine science, but... really is it so hard to imagine that if you discourage sex rather than encourage it, you might cut back a bit on kids having sex?

125 But because they're all agitated and angry about "anti-sex conservatives" they keep supporting this dangerous nonsense anyway.

Let's not forget that those in the 'abortion-on-demand' crowd (which constitutes a lot of liberals) are 100% behind the anti-abstinence initiatives.

126

FIFY

Big difference between "could not" which implies an ethical choice, vs "would not" which is much more venal and dishonest in that situation.

Good point. A little linguistic laziness on my part.

127 Posted by: maddogg at February 02, 2010 04:23 PM (OlN4e)

Rates a 3 on the moron scale, balls for doing that.

128 Leftards hate children and those who have them.

Tell me about it.

129
What was my biggest fear as a young man if confronted with a pregnancy?

Not the castigation of peers, and not the pregnancy itself, but the wrath of my father who gave me sage advise and expected it to be followed to the letter.

This was an era when father's were respected and admired.  My father was a WWII pilot who returned to America and established a great life for his family, which included respect from his children.  Dad passed in '04 at 96, and is missed by all.

130

We are at a time in our nation's history where there is  a tv commercial media frenzy over with a mom a woman living as a man telling people how happy she was  to give  birth to her son is controversial.intruiging.

/fixed

131 Let's not forget that those in the 'abortion-on-demand' crowd (which constitutes a lot of liberals) are 100% behind the anti-abstinence initiatives.

Look here you non pig man moron!  If a woman gets killed in a Planned Parenthood clinic it's just business.  But a crisis pregnancy center won't refer a patient to an abortion clinic I am going to cut their funding and recommend prosecution to the Department of Justice.

Now, I have a Beverly Hills fund raiser to attend.  b'dee b'dee that's all folks.

132 Ace is being a little generous with the Lefties.  Yes, many want the kiddies to have sex as soon as they're curious - they like to undermine parental authority as a rule.  I mean, have you ever actually read pandagon or feministe?  And apart from the faux-liberated feminist types, I have a suspicion that some (particularly creepy male) pushers of "pro-sex" messages are on the lookout for something more than the health and welfare of young people.

The truth is that any neurologist will tell you that a teen's brain architecture is not fully formed, especially parts of the brain that, for example, control risk taking and delayed gratification.  That's why sixteen year olds drive so well.  Mix in the fact that teens' brains are marinated in several times the adult level of sex hormones, and you have a recipe for disaster.  But, you know, there's always Planned Parenthood to get rid of the evidence, so shut up you anti-sex weirdos.

Also, I really think the Leftie pro-sex thing is really just a pose born of insecurity.  Do you really think someone like Amynda Marcotte is really a sexually open person without a raft of hangups? 

Finally, as a strikingly handsome, masculine man, I have to say that I would prosper even in a seemingly repressed, Leftist charicature of the 50s, so the pro-sex pose doesn't appeal that much to me.

133 I think some of you are failing to consider that most liberals are not leftists, and, anyway, most people do not think in terms of A to B to C to D to master plans. Most people think of "A" only. The rest of the chain of consequences they don't think about. They don't plan them. I know a lot of liberals. Two parents I'm thinking of. They're great people. And I can tell you that the mom especially is freaked out by how sexualized the culture has become. however, she doesn't talk about it in POLITICAL terms, just personal ones. She fears for her kids -- really, she is FREAKED OUT by the internet and stuff --and would never champion any of this crap. I know she doesn't buy this crap, so saying liberals "Want" this isn't right. I'm not sure of her opinions on this as far as politics, but, if she hews to the liberal side of things here, I would guess it has to do with the belief that conservatives are anti-sex and judgmental and she wants to distance herself from that. Even while, on a personal level, kind of agreeing down the line. Assuming she thinks that (which I do not know), I think the simplest explanation is she just resists making the connection in this case, because she just "knows" that conservatives are usually wrong, and if there's a conflict in her thinking here, she is probably just glossing over it. Because, when it comes to your kids, you don't really need consistency. You just want your kids to be safe; she doesn't have to rethink her politics to want her kids to be safe. Anyway, I know it's weird for me to be defending liberals, but I do know quite a few, and on a personal level, they're fine. Plus, you know, there are lots of soft liberals/liberal moderates who are not ideologues nor super-duper partisan. Bear in mind they got taught this crap at age 3, really taught it in college, and get reinforcement/cocooning on it from all the major media 24/7. It's not their fault; it's SOCIETY, you know?

134 Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 02, 2010 04:26 PM (ujg0T)

My sister and her husband are 34 and got one kid. Cousin and her husband have two, other cousin and the father of her children (dead beats the lot of them) only had two kids).

I can't find a woman who wants to have 3 sons and 3 daughters.

135 I don't have kids and I don't plan on ever having kids so discount my view as necessary.

I'm horrified by the whole "oh it's no big deal if a 12 yo looks like/acts like a whore" thing.  Hell, I'm horrified by it when it's a 16 yo.  I am absolutely fine with being that way.  I fail to see how it's cool and hip and awesomeface to encourage children, and, yeah a 12 yo is a child, to have sex.  Any kind of sex.  Kissing maybe but anything else?  No. A trillion times no. 

This doesn't make sense even from the feminist point of view.  I don't have the studies to hand, but I believe there is empirical evidence that the later a girl starts having sex, the better she is academically, financially and emotionally.  The Girl Power thing to teach is hell no you aren't doing that to me. 

I just don't get how teaching kids to be sluts is so fantastic.

136 I've got four children, three of which are daughters. Seeing as they're all young (between 3 and 6) and at the stage of life where they are most impressionable and when they start to imprint their values, I feel comfortable in putting you some knowledge: Parenting is 90% intimidation, laying down the law, random violence, putting your foot down and bud-nipping, with about 10% hugs and shit. Do your job as a parent and they will live in constant fear of your wrath. If your kids aren't giving your coffin a 2-yard halo at your funeral, you have failed as a parent.

137

Posted by: maddogg at February 02, 2010 04:23 PM (OlN4e)

I have nothing to add to this masterpiece.  I get the giggles everytime I hear about how men and women have similar views about sex.  My wife doesn't believe me when I talk about what it was like being a teenager.  Women have no idea...

138

Leftards hate children and those who have them.

Not so. Welfare offices register a lot of new D voters, after all.

Posted by: LibertarianJim

 

Liking children for the political entitlements they afford and actually liking children because they can become productive, good, thoughtful people are two entirely different things.

139 My kids catholic elementary school had scheduled their annual sex talk with the 8th grade. I told the talker, whom I know outside of school and who has little girls, to remind the girls (they divide up the genders) that oral sex is sex and that they will get an immediate and disgusting reputation the minute they enter high school--the small private expensive catholic high school. She expressed shock. I'm felt like, look honey, you have no business giving them this talk unless you can talk about reality. The girls think it's not sex. They offer it like candy and the boys, who take advantage of them think they are scum.

140

I only have a boy, thank God.

Here's my message to him when he's older: Sex has consequences. You knock up some girl, you man up and take care of your responsibilities. Think about this the next time you wanna get with some skank because she'll be in your life forever if you get her pregnant. And herpes will be on your dick forever if she has it.

Whatever you do, you own it. Take the coward's way out and I'll disown you.

141 Damn, I was too late to participate in the 1960's free love shit, and too early to have cashed in on this new wave of young tarts.  Yea, I'm bitter about this.

OTOH, I seem to have missed out on a whole bunch of STD's

142 Nice post, Ace. I've never understood why supporting abstinence education programs meets such resistance from libs. Their reaction to it is just bizarre, similar in some respects to their howling over the Tim Tebow Super Bowl ad. Suggesting kids wait to have sex ain't a bad thing, nor is a commercial where a woman talks about making a CHOICE for her unborn child.

143 Nuclear: Study Finds Abstinence-Only Programs May Work

 

 

Hey, you know who this helps don't you?  Mitt Romney!   Quick we need to organize a Million Mormon March!

144

Here's my message to him when he's older: Sex has consequences. You knock up some girl, you man up and take care of your responsibilities. Think about this the next time you wanna get with some skank because she'll be in your life forever if you get her pregnant. And herpes will be on your dick forever if she has it.

 

Erections have consequences, people!

145

I play online games.  There are plenty of kids on there.  I tell them:  Use it to pee out of til you're married.  They get the message, and they laugh.

I'm sure they're still all out there sucking each other's dicks, those little scamps, but it makes me feel better.

146 Do your job as a parent and they will live in constant fear of your wrath. If your kids aren't giving your coffin a 2-yard halo at your funeral, you have failed as a parent.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 02, 2010 04:32 PM (xGIqT)

If my kids didn't respect me I would consider myself a failure at life.

147

Not the castigation of peers, and not the pregnancy itself, but the wrath of my father who gave me sage advise and expected it to be followed to the letter.

 

Yep. Me too. I can't even imagine. On my wedding day I was pleased that I had been freed up not to piss him off.

148 I wonder how many millions were spect on this study? The results are intuitive unless you're a fucking libtard. I'd love to get a governement grant to study the obvious. One of my choices would be "Can I coldcock a libtard hard enough to knock some sense into him?" The answer being no, of course.

149

dagny, not always.  There was one Saturday morning that our then-infant daughter woke up "five minutes too soon," if you know what I mean.  It was the usual "Helllloooooooo, the Center of the Known Universe is awake now, slaves!" cry that we were met with every morning.  Mrs. reason scootched over and turned off the baby monitor, and was ready to go...

...I'm sure I'll get the Man Card revoked for this...

...I was the one who couldn't go on.  There is pretty much any sort of backdrop to which I can get my freak on.  A crying baby is NOT one of them.

 

re:  mommydaddymommydaddyMOMMYDADDYMOMMYDADDY.  Let's not forget that usually the reason for interruption was always VERY important.  Like, tattling that one of the other children burped and didn't excuse themselves.

 

maddogg - do you still sleep on the couch for that?

150 I've never understood why supporting abstinence education programs meets such resistance from libs.

They recoiled in horror against its perceived religious origins.  Effectivness was never an issue.

151 Ace, Well it's time for "society" to take personal responsibility and teach it to their offspring as most Conservatives do, I raised two sons through the 80's and they always treated women with respect no matter what age they were, or as they were told if they didn't it would result in death, of course I know that I'm in the minority of parents today!

152 Also I plan on using the Clueless response to suitors at such time as I ever become an honorary aunt to some friends kids - I have a .45 and a shovel.  No one will miss you. 

153 Because, when it comes to your kids, you don't really need consistency.

But consistency is exactly what kids need to be raised properly, IMHO.

154 Leftards hate children and those who have them.

That's because lefties are stunted individuals and want to be taken care of instead of providing that for children.

155 120
 
And the schools do surrogate parenting oh so well.
 
You need a license to style someone's hair, but to raise a kid? Meh. If I wasn't a libertarian, I'd say there oughta be a law. Yup schools suck at it, but that does not change the fact that some parents suck worse.

156 Ace, I think you're skipping over one of the largest psychological traits that inform liberal "values". Hypocrisy is the only sin to a liberal. And hell, if Mom cracked thigh for every swinging Richard back when she was a teen, why it would be hypocritical to expect my daughter to abstain. Like learning from your mistakes is somehow invalid, or that you have no right to insist on a higher standard, even if you weren't always perfect. "But Dad," they cry, "you smoked pot when you were a teenager!" "I also murdered your Uncle Robert. Do you have the balls to step to all of Daddy's sins? No? Then shut the fuck up and go cut the lawn, boy."

157 Breaking: Research indicates a new way to kick drug addition is to never start doing drugs. We think this COULD work.

158

"Ace is being a little generous with the Lefties.  Yes, many want the kiddies to have sex as soon as they're curious - they like to undermine parental authority as a rule.  I mean, have you ever actually read pandagon or feministe?"

It would be such karmic justice if Amanda Marcotte, Jill Flipovic et. al. were placed into cells with a gang of Gitmo prisoners, or a gang of California Correctional Facility inmates for that matter. The leftist "multicultural" crap would be knocked right out of them, in a very painful and intimate way, and lessons about life would be taught, also in a very painful and intimate way.

159

"You don't always just have to take a position contrary to us just to prove you're superior"

How else are they going to do it?

160 Here's a premise a lot of societies built themselves around:

All nonmarital sex is illegitimate.

Actually, it works pretty well as a societal building block. It encourages marriage, discourages adultery, and keeps all manner of deviant sexual practices in the dark. That society may not look like much fun, but the social network it builds are pretty stable.

It's just amazing to me the amount of effort and energy that's been expended over the last fifty years on denying, attacking, and subverting that premise.

161

OT - I'm guessing that this will not remind them of Gene Kelly's famous dance routine:

http://tinyurl.com/yblt7qz

 

162 But consistency is exactly what kids need to be raised properly, IMHO.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at February 02, 2010 04:36 PM (554T5)

Absolutely; children need to know that an action will produce a given reaction time after time.  Any deviation from that will confuse the hell out of them.

163

And if kids are thinking sex is a taboo and something frightening they shouldn't mess with -- Good. They should be thinking that.

Noo.  That's  just ignorant.

164 Parenting is 90% intimidation, laying down the law, random violence

Huh?

165 I agree with Zombie Michael Jackson.

166

maddogg - do you still sleep on the couch for that?

After 33 years she is resigned to my being an intolerable asshole. Besides, she laughed! I also serve as her best warning to our daughter as to what to avoid

167 I agree with Zombie MJ too.

168

Abstinence programs should be directed at women only.  I long for the days when women said no.  It was a challenge and a feeling of accomplishment when you were able to convince someone to sleep with you.  Now you can do it without putting in even a third of the effort.  Its made men less respectful and forgetful on how to be gentlemen. 

Just say no.  Unless I ask really, really nice.~polynikes

HEAR, HEAR!  I second that notion.

169

...I was the one who couldn't go on.  There is pretty much any sort of backdrop to which I can get my freak on.  A crying baby is NOT one of them.

 Well, mr. dagny had no problem with that but is worried about the teenagers "hearing". The six year old is still knocking and sliding things under the door, and demanding breakfast or whatever. All this would be fine if I could get in bed and stay awake for more than 30 seconds if not seriously occupied.

170 I also agree with ZMJ.

171 All nonmarital sex is illegitimate.

Actually, it works pretty well as a societal building block. It encourages marriage, discourages adultery ...
Posted by: slarrow

Actually I think you have it backwards. Successful societies pressured young adults to get married quite early and thereby avoiding the whole debate.

172 In more get off my lawn news, I find the whole hookup culture to be horrifying as well.  You know, when a certain class of professional women bitches about how men aren't willing to commit, my first thought is well you shouldn't have banged the hell out of everyone on a revolving door basis in college now should you?  Why the hell would a guy commit when he can get what he wants when he wants and then go home without worrying about some woman taking him for everything he has.

173 Like I said I never had a daughter, but if I did when she became of age to date I would make sure that she was armed and taught how to use it when she went on said date, just sayin'!

174 Yeah, I'm with Zombie MJ.

175

Wait--

How did we go from discussing abstinence-only programs in school to this "premise": All nonmarital sex is illegitimate.

176 185, It's ok for adults because they are supposed to know better, not so much for kids!

177

Posted by: alexthechick at February 02, 2010 04:43 PM (8WZWv)

Have I told you lately that you are the coolest thing EVAH?!?

178

Now gents, let's get real. Claiming that "abstinence always works" or that "sex outside marriage is a bad thing" is just as silly as claiming that "homosexuals have no business being in the armed forces."

C'mon, we've progressed past all that voodoo superstition. We know better now. This is the 21st Century, okay?

Tired old copybook headings, faugh!

179 ...I was the one who couldn't go on. There is pretty much any sort of backdrop to which I can get my freak on. A crying baby is NOT one of them. Well, mr. dagny had no problem with that but is worried about the teenagers "hearing". The six year old is still knocking and sliding things under the door, and demanding breakfast or whatever. All this would be fine if I could get in bed and stay awake for more than 30 seconds if not seriously occupied. I'm here to offer moral support to maddog. There's nothing that kills the mood for me like a three year-old girl hammering on the door yelling "MOMMY I NEED TO TELL YOU SOMETHING!"

180 Have you ever tried to stuff a marshmallow in a piggybank? It's about that easy with your kids yelling thru the door while you've got mommy in the Hucklebuck.

181 Stupid sock.

182 150

 Think about this the next time you wanna get with some skank because she'll be in your life forever....

 
Meat Loaf -- Paradise By The Dashboard Light

183

"because it would be bad for her and she would remember the asshole that did it for the rest of her life. That actually seemed to strike a chord."

Threadwin.  One of the few things 15-year-old boys understand is humiliation, and can respect and fear the notion of someone being out there in the world, who will be all too happy to point-and-laugh at you FOREVAR...

184

We are at a time in our nation's history where a tv commercial with a mom telling people how happy she is she gave birth to her son is controversial.

Only to the media and the phony "inteligencia".  I think we allow the media to influence us too much, even as conservatives. Anttime I see soemthing like that pop up on TV I just call them a lying C..... and turn the channel.

And in fact, I simply do not watch very much TV at all anymore. I have even cut down on the news since Fox has been moving more and more to the left.

185 Either it was no big deal to these women or it was a convincing display of false bravado

You think it's the former, outlaw in HH; I think it's the latter.  Each experience is unique and some people have an amazing ability to Repress, or whatever.

Like everyone else, I can only speak for meself  ( and project it onto everyone else )

186 Why the hell would a guy commit when he can get what he wants when he wants and then go home without worrying about some woman taking him for everything he has. It's not just that - it's mild revulsion at how easy it was. "Sorry, but I could never commit to someone who let me do the things that I did to you on the first date. But thanks for the use of your vagina."

187 My wife decided to practice Abstinence after we got married.

188 Posted by: alexthechick at February 02, 2010 04:43 PM (8WZWv)

And the hook up culture seems to destroy women, even women who scorn it. The women I am attracted to don't follow the hook up culture but they are jaded and cynical because of it.

For some odd reason, I find the average conservative women more attractive than the most beautiful easy woman out there.

189 With my own oldest daughter about to hit TeenTime, our own experiment in walking this tightrope is about to be either validated or shot down in flames. Clear limits. No bullshit. Open communication.

The worst effect I've witnessed from teenagers doing it isn't the pregnancy -- although that happens. When it happens, it's very bad. But fairly infrequent. What happens every single time though? Severe emotional overinvolvement from both the guy and the girl. It leads to sooo many problems and missed opportunities.

The kids I know who waited until they were in college basically did so because 1) their parents cared and were really involved in their lives; 2) they were way to busy; and 3) they had way too much to look forward to in their future to screw it up with either a super-serious boyfriend in high school or through pregnancy.

190 Posted by: Holger at February 02, 2010 04:52 PM (8NGHm)

That's because she has high self esteem and a brain.

191

This doesn't make sense even from the feminist point of view.  I don't have the studies to hand, but I believe there is empirical evidence that the later a girl starts having sex, the better she is academically, financially and emotionally.  The Girl Power thing to teach is hell no you aren't doing that to me. 

I just don't get how teaching kids to be sluts is so fantastic.

Amen!  Amen!  I think every girl should play sports!  I was involved with a non-profit, "Girls on The Run", for a year.  It basically introduces running to young girls (8-11).  We met twice a week after school and had a lesson plan (topics included nutrition, why bullying and gossiping are bad, developing good habits, being a girl of your word, etc.)  There was a slight lefty tilt (we had one lesson on the environment, but not too obnoxious).  The goal was to educate the girls and empower them through running.   After the lesson, we would play a game to reinforce the lesson and encourage team building/camaraderie and after the game, we would run with the girls, slowly building their distance.  The goal was for them to do an organized 5K race at the end of the program (we had one practice race a couple of weeks before the actual race).  We had women volunteer from the community to be running buddies and run the practice race and the race with them.  Each girl got her own buddy.  The amazing thing was watching these girls finish their first 5k race--the looks on their faces.  They were like "if I can run a 5K I can do anything."

Anyways, this program was started by a woman who did research and found out that girls who play sports were more likely to do better in school, stay in school, choose better friends, and not get pregnant than girls who didn't play sports.  It's funny because I was probably the only conservative coach there (not that politics ever came up, but just because of where I live), but we all thought that empowered, strong girls were a good thing, and we all took it very seriously, hoping we were helping prevent unwanted teen pregnancy later down the road as we instilled a love for running.

192

Maddog and jeff, you both have girls? Interesting. Wonder if mr. dagny could have been so uninterested in the Mommymommydaddymommy if it had been his princess instead of the boys?

Parents are probably preprogrammed to not engage in procreative activity when there are children small enough to interrupt. That's why I've never seen HOW you can have more than say, 4, there just isn't the time.

193 191 Have you ever tried to stuff a marshmallow in a piggybank? It's about that easy with your kids yelling thru the door while you've got mommy in the Hucklebuck.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at February 02, 2010 04:49 PM (xGIqT)

That's some funny shit!!

194

It's the mindset they have...and I have known many people like that. Certian individuals adopt a contrarian position in a gambit (sorry I stole Ace's word, but it works too well here) to make others think that they are superior to them...and will come up with the most fuckheaded arguments to try to support their positions.

It comes from a place of insecurity...not conviction.

It's liberalism in a nutshell. They really want others to see them as more enlightened ...and superior. If they are able to get others to come around..they 1) constantly remind them of it, or 2) adopt another position to once again distance themselves ...which is another way of putting themselves on a pedestal.

195 You know how you'll know the Lefties from the Liberals that Ace describes?



The Lefties, rather than being encouraged by the results of this study, will immediately try to undercut its findings and demonize its authors.  The Leftie "tell," if you will, that the proposition of kids delaying sexual activity is what they find wholly intolerable.

196 My girls are so gonna hate me.  And I will have a smug smile.

197

D'oh, Sock!

198

For some odd reason, I find the average conservative women more attractive than the most beautiful easy woman out there.

 

Hey!  We're not mutually exclusive, you know!

199

I remember reading something about being very protective of her daughters and mindful about what they were exposed to..

...but she didn't mind the fact that she was instrumental in turning scads of tweeners into sluts

200

Hey!  We're not mutually exclusive, you know!

Posted by: Megyn Kelly at February 02, 2010 04:56 PM (CfmlF)

If I kill and field-dress our Husband will you marry me?

201

203 191 Have you ever tried to stuff a marshmallow in a piggybank? It's about that easy with your kids yelling thru the door while you've got mommy in the Hucklebuck.

 

LOL!  Hey, have you considered a career in the ever burgeoning romance genre?  All you needed was an heaving bosom!  Heh!

202 4 years ago, when my son was 12, I let him do some research on the intertubes while I supervised. It was for a history of California project. After awhile, I went to the kitchen and fixed up a snack for the both of us. I got back just in time to see him type in "teens" for an image search. That is how I learned about search restrictions and he learned about blowjobs, anal sex, lesbian sex, fag sex, and animal sex. All in one moment. I think Ace was even in there. And, well, then we had the "talk".

203 >>>Hypocrisy is the only sin to a liberal. And hell, if Mom cracked thigh for every swinging Richard back when she was a teen, why it would be hypocritical to expect my daughter to abstain. Right, that is correct. Hypocrisy is the greatest sin, best avoided by never announcing a standard of conduct. They need to get over this. Hypocrisy is necessary. We repeat our fidelity to values even though we will sometimes fall short, but the affirmation of those values is a positive thing. It is good to have hypocrisy as a sin, because it helps us reduce the number of times we deviate. Judgmentalism, hypocrisy, all this crap they've elevated to the greatest of sins... well, they are sins, but they are also necessary, in the sense that without them, you start to get things that are a lot worse. And look: Everyone is judgmental, and hypocritical. especially a lot of those liberals who have decided these are the Worst Sins Eveh.

204

"There's nothing that kills the mood for me like a three year-old girl hammering on the door yelling "MOMMY I NEED TO TELL YOU SOMETHING!""

And that "something" is usually Earth-shattering, like "there was a dog that just ran through the front yard!"

205 I don't understand this diffrentation between a leftist and a liberal. I have always considered them to be the same thing.

206

"Abstinence only" goes against human instincts.  I have a 16 year old daughter that has remained a virgin so far (I honestly think and pray).  Her mother and I have warned her for years that sex has consequences that could derail her life ambitions, that she will be better prepared to deal with the emotional entanglements of sex if she waits until she is older, that STD's exist in large percentages of the population, etc.  But the bottom line is she has hormonal desires that are pushing her to procreate.  For tens of thousands of years our species has existed because of its ability to breed sucessfully.  Do you think this stops because we overlap our current societal life timelines on top of our genetic code.  Add to that societal pressures that come from a porn infused, sexually saturated culture and tell me how a parent can simply tell his teen to not to have sex. Teens have sex.  Seeking, having, and recounting sex is the freaking essence of high-school.

Now, all the BS about the 11 and 12 year olds might be another subject all together.  At that age, we preached abstinence only.  It is only in her mid-high school years that her mom and I felt we had to do more.

 

207 And the hook up culture seems to destroy women, even women who scorn it. The women I am attracted to don't follow the hook up culture but they are jaded and cynical because of it.
Posted by: Holger at February 02, 2010 04:52 PM (8NGHm)

Yup.

208

Finally, as a strikingly handsome, masculine man, I have to say that I would prosper even in a seemingly repressed, Leftist charicature of the 50s, so the pro-sex pose doesn't appeal that much to me.

It ees, as I say, bether do loook goood than to feeel goood.

209

"Do as I say, not as I do"

Because I'm gonna get mommy drunk tonite and ruin her. ;p

210 I had an extremely rich college roommate. You would recognize the name. She was beautiful too. She screwed anybody, anyplace, anytime...whole frats. I think it was to get back at her mother but possibly she was too lazy to say no. At the 10th reunion, she came with her husband. I was standing in a group of guys who looked at him and just kept saying, "do you think he knows?" Most of them had done her but they felt pity for her husband--a guy married to a very rich, very beautiful woman. There's a story for your girls.

211 And might I say, Yooo Loook Mahvelous!

212

213: Just curious, ace, but is telling someone younger "Don't make the mistakes I did..." REALLY hypocrisy?

In the world of the Demunists, of course it is, but in the real world....

213

Personally I don't think men/boys are pigs -- unless they've been allowed to be, unless they get taught that they're supposed to act like that.  I don't think women/girls are sluts either -- unless for the same reasons as men/boys and the "pig" thing.

That's taking all the personal responsiblity out of the equation, denigrating the act of procreation to some mere wallowing in the mud, and not having a lot of respect for the potential product of the act. 

There's no shame in sex or wanting it, or liking it.  Now, there can be irresponsiblity and the consequences of bad choices, and that a person should be taught to be ashamed of, or taught that the nonshameful action is to bear full responsiblity for the choices and actions one partakes in.  But the act and actors themselves?  No, how can that be?

Same for boys as well as girls -- don't do it unless you're ready, willing, and able to deal with the potentialities, but don't be ashamed of wanting to do it because that's just the normal way of the world.  You're not a pig or a slut for wanting that, just don't be foolish in choosing to do it.  The desire is a natural thing, but it can lead to things you may not be prepared for and you have the ability to make the right choice (and your parents have quite a lot of say over your choices until you leave their house because they are affected quite firsthand if your actions lead to something that they have to bear responsiblity for).

214

dagny,

Pictures or video or it never happened...

215

#139

WWII generation of parents were different.  I'm one of them.  Movies didn't show even a married couple sharing a bed.  Other tabus: swearing, sex, dirty words, half- or fully undressed people on the TV.  Furthermore, at that time most mothers were home when the kids came home from school and there wasn't one iota of a chance that there would be any sex play going on at home.  Parents were a bloc and we tattled on our kids; they didn't get away with much outside the home either.

'NamGrunt - I can't help but wonder how many, if any, liberals you know.  Your statements are pitiful.

 

 

216 In 1940... the out of wedlock birth rate was 3.8 %. In the forties there was no sex ed, no legalized abortion in all 50 states, no pill and really laffable birth control practices.

Today. 2010.. that rate  is over  40%

You would think with the invention of pill, abortion now legal in all 50 states, manufacturing processes that gives us condoms with no holes in them, and sex ed that starts in second gtrade...... our unwanted pregnancy problem should be damn near zero. Yets its now ten times higher than it was in 1940.

I'd say sex ed has been a dismal failure

Japan has the lowest rate of unwanted pregnancies at 2% of all industrialized nations..... all that honor and family tradition and not bringing shame to the family doesn't work at all?

217
I think Ace was even in there.

heh

218 Good post

219

#216 CA Red: But it should be *your* decision to give your daughter the condom, not the nanny-state's. Or better yet, have her go to the drugstore and buy them herself with her teenybopper job money.

Oh, but she's ashamed to? Well, in the words of a great Trojan Advertisement: "Get Real--If you're not ready for condoms, you're not ready for sex..."

220

D'oh, Sock!  Posted by: runningrn at February 02, 2010 04:55 PM (CfmlF)

I figured it was you.

221 Posted by: fixerupper at February 02, 2010 05:07 PM (J5Hcw)

Honor culture works. And Japan is a fairly liberalized society, this is the country that gave us Bukkake and Hentai Porn.

222 I actually had this argument with my mushyheaded but loveable liberal wifey the other night. She denigrated abstinence education, and I replied, "Fine. When the time comes, *we* will tell our son or daughter to get a condom, not the damn school..." (at this point, we are still trying to conceive one)

223

Well, how about that.  Now, let's see a study that shows how many kids abstain from sex when their education is handled by their PARENTS instead of some generic program fed to the kids at an age the state has determined to be appropriate.

Sex Ed shouldn't be taught in the schools, it should be taught by the parents at an age the parents have determined their kids should learn it, and that age is different for every child.  This is the first problem caused by parents who surrender their responsibilities on this issue and it plays right into the basic liberal concept that everything should be handled by the government.

Second problem: children have the opportunity to have sex, either because parents are letting their child date at too young an age (stupid) and/or both parents are working (liberals just hate placing importance upon the role of a HOUSEWIFE -- and how many folks these days look down on women who don't work thanks to feminism?).  This is another problem with parental responsibility and plays into the liberals' hands. 

Third problem: liberals will not agree to Abstinence Only because it places the primary responsibility on the female, and liberals will not acknowledge there is a difference between the 2 genders' sex drives or choices.  The female carries the primary burden because she bears the greater possibility of consequence and is born with a different sexual attitude, one naturally prone to abstinence.  Males can overcome their stronger libido and should be taught to do so, but realistically the girl is going to have what guy wants and is ultimately the one to make the decision.  This problem can be avoided by parents if they don't permit themselves to be persuaded by the liberal concept that there's Zero difference betweeen the sexes.

So, more than any type of "program" kids go through, the best way to guarantee teen abstinence is to get the parents off their tails and have them do their jobs instead of letting the state, peer pressure, and liberal doctine dictate to them.

I still laugh at the number of people who lost their minds when I said the Palin parents bore some responsibility for their daughter's pregnancy.

224 #220 dagny wrote, "I had an extremely rich college roommate. You would recognize the name. She was beautiful too. She screwed anybody, anyplace, anytime...whole frats."

  "there is no slut quite as bad as a rich, white slut" - Dave Sim.

225 No one has ever argued (to my understanding) that abstinence only education doesn't delay sexual activity. 

However, the onset of sexual activity is only part of the concern.  Generally liberals don't think sex is that bad of a thing.  Not by itself anyway.  The bad things are the STDs and unwanted pregnancies that go along with doing it wrong. 

Abstinence only education (by nature of being abstinence only) does not adequately prepare people to avoid the actual bad outcomes once they do become sexually active.  And they invariably do. 

So whether they begin having sex at 14, 18, or 21, the point is we want kids to engage in these behaviors safely.  Abstinence only education does not provide the education to make this possible.

So I can see this study validating an abstinence component to a comprehensive sexual education.  However, merely delaying sexual behavior does next to nothing if the behavior (when it is inevitably engaged in) is engaged with a lack of basic reproductive health education.

226 213 They need to get over this. Hypocrisy is necessary. We repeat our fidelity to values even though we will sometimes fall short, but the affirmation of those values is a positive thing.

It's not hypocrisy if you try to do the right thing ( and know what the 'right thing' is ) but fail or fall short--and then expect others to also try and to know what the 'right thing' is.

It's only hypocrisy if you never tried and /or don't know Right from Wrong, but insist that others do what you never attempted or appreciated

227 Hypocrisy is saying but not trying. It is not trying but failing.

228

Abstinance Only is a crime against men.

 

Abstinance eventually leads to marriage.  Marriage eventually leads to more abstinance. 

 

Whats a poor guy to do?

229 So whether they begin having sex at 14, 18, or 21, the point is we want kids to engage in these behaviors safely.  Abstinence only education does not provide the education to make this possible.

Yeah, except it doesn't take all that long for young people to understand how sex works, and how to reduce the chances of getting pregnant or of contracting a disease.  People are intensely interested in sex, so that part is easy.  It is practicing carnal forbearance that is the issue, together with the fact that 14 year olds are by nature very, very bad decision makers. 

I simply don't think you need to begin the Sex Ed at the age of 10, or that you need to teach Sex Ed in every grade and all the time in order to get the "plumbing" down and the idea of contraception to work.  You need comprehensive Sex Ed from young ages and all the time in order to change sexual mores, which is why so many people resist it in the first place. 

Also, parents are more than capable of teaching what needs to be taught.

230 >>>"Abstinence only" goes against human instincts. I have a 16 year old daughter that has remained a virgin so far (I honestly think and pray). I think at this point most parents would pray their daughters hold out until 16. I don't want to say any age is okay, but seriously, if it was just 16-18 for the first time like it used to be for most, that would be one thing.

231

Whats a poor guy to do?

Posted by: Spider79 at February 02, 2010 05:20 PM (nILWR)

Develop well defined forearms?

232

There is no shame in the sex act in and of itself, just like there is no shame in the desiring -- hell, it's a natural thing; none of us would be here if the desiring and the act hadn't taken place.

Now, there is a fair bit of shame in being foolish in how one acts on the desire and how one goes about conducting the act in an irresponsible way.  I think that's the big issue for me: that sometimes gets forgotten all the way around.  I don't think anybody, much less impressionable, of an age kids, should be made to feel shameful about the act or wanting it -- it's going against nature.  They should be taught how to successfully and responsibly think and act in regards to the natural impulse though and that there are consequences.

233

However, the onset of sexual activity is only part of the concern.  Generally liberals don't think sex is that bad of a thing.  Not by itself anyway.  The bad things are the STDs and unwanted pregnancies that go along with doing it wrong. 

And this is the problem with liberals. Sex *is* a bad thing for minors. To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, not discouraging sexuality to minors is like not discouraging giving whiskey and the car keys to teenage boys.

234 I saw the opening to an episode of Boston Legal the other night where a girl who contracted HIV "because her high school teaches abstinence only." wanted to sue the school. Of course she was bright, erudite and capable of understanding that she could legally apply to be emancipated – and yet she went out and had sex with someone who turned out to be HIV positive. I couldn't bring myself to watch any further. Maybe David Kelley didn't follow the brain-dead liberal line in the end, but I kinda expect that he did. Memo to the left: abstinence programs don't cause unwanted child pregnancy and venereal disease, kids who don't listen combined with adults who encourage them not to do that well enough.

235 Excellent post, Ace. My parents beat it (heh) into my head from a very young age that premarital sex was simply not an option. They went even farther than "he won't respect you in the morning." It was "no one will want to marry you -- you'll be used goods -- you'll get a bad reputation -- (and this one was the REAL kicker) IT WILL BREAK YOUR FATHER'S HEART." Ouch.

So, it never even entered my mind to have premarital sex (I mean actual intercourse... the other stuff never entered my mind until college). And my reasons for living that way -- yes it is a "lifestyle choice" -- evolved as I got older. When I was in middle school and heard the whispers about Slutty Susie, I felt awful for her, but thanked God I was raised the way I was. When I was in high school and each and every one of my girlfriends began having sex I saw them either A) get an STD, B) have a pregnancy scare, or C) get dumped by their boyfriends three weeks later (this one happened like clockwork). It just didn't seem worth it to me... and I had watched my parents live the consequences of premarital sex gone wrong -- my brother whose birthday is coincidentally four months after my parents' wedding anniversary, resentment, accusations, you name it. Why would I want to even CHANCE any of that, just to make my pimply, skinny boyfriend happy for - let's face it - five minutes? What-the-eff-ever.

And you better damn well believe I'll teach my son to live the same way -- and my daughter, if I'm lucky enough to have one. S/He won't love you in the  morning. You WILL get a bad reputation. Son, if you can't keep your little soldier in his tent then you better man up and take responsibility. They hand out condoms like #2 pencils in schools today, there's NO REASON not to use one.

And like several posters above said: fear is a very useful motivator. My father would routinely clean his Glock in front of my boyfriends (I knew my husband was "the one" not only after he said, "whatever you want, I respect your beliefs" when I dropped the "I'm waiting for marriage" bomb but also when he asked my dad if he could go to the range with him). My older brothers would drop little gems like "Don't forget what I said about the baseball bat," when a date would come to pick me up. Only one ever had the smarts to ask me "Oh, was that meant for me?" And I most certainly will be saying the old "I've got a gun and a shovel, no one will miss you" line.... I mean, isn't that part of my job?

236

So I can see this study validating an abstinence component to a comprehensive sexual education.  However, merely delaying sexual behavior does next to nothing if the behavior (when it is inevitably engaged in) is engaged with a lack of basic reproductive health education.

Really. I think delaying it from 12 to 19 makes a huge difference. The 19 year old has at least had time to date, to understand the biology behind the event, the chance to be a child/teenager, the chance to make friends without sexualizing them, a chance to learn about their bodies, a chance to learn not to bow to peer pressure every time, a chance to recognize when they are being used, a chance to know about and understand pregnancy, birth control, etc.

Who would you trust more to put on a condom? A 19 year old or a 13 year old? 13 year old boys barely remember to shower.

It really is a shame, and I'm in it too, that when we discuss this we see the inevitable pre-marital sex. The argument is largely over and now we're just quibbling about age.

Liberals don't like abstinance because it smacks of morals. Morals smack of religion and religion is the opiate.

237 Well defined forearms? I have well defined forearms and I am ambidextrous. Is that a sin?

238

I saw the opening to an episode of Boston Legal the other night where a girl who contracted HIV "because her high school teaches abstinence only." wanted to sue the school. Of course she was bright, erudite and capable of understanding that she could legally apply to be emancipated – and yet she went out and had sex with someone who turned out to be HIV positive. I couldn't bring myself to watch any further. Maybe David Kelley didn't follow the brain-dead liberal line in the end, but I kinda expect that he did.

And of course, the question of how HIV was contracted was never asked. Why, it just came out of the blue like polio used to! Doing dozens of men a night in the bath house or shooting up junk were not mentioned.

239

248 Yeah I got it backwards. I also meant pigs in the most affectionate sense possible.

I saw a "portrait of a teenage mother" in like, oh, 1975? It scared the crap out of me. I think it starred Jan Brady (whatever her name was). She ended up in a trailer park with an abusive alcoholic guy. That movie and fear of my dad kept my knees together for years.

240 I bought a pull-up bar, and that's been great for my forearms.  Now when I open a jar ... oh wait ...

241 Oink I say!

242 Really. I think delaying it from 12 to 19 makes a huge difference. The 19 year old has at least had time to date, to understand the biology behind the event, the chance to be a child/teenager, the chance to make friends without sexualizing them, a chance to learn about their bodies, a chance to learn not to bow to peer pressure every time, a chance to recognize when they are being used, a chance to know about and understand pregnancy, birth control, etc.

Yes.  One's discretion and ability to act contrary to what one's peer group does is much more developed at 19 than at 12.  I think discretion in the number and character of sexual partners can be a good thing.

243

So whether they begin having sex at 14, 18, or 21, the point is we want kids to engage in these behaviors safely.

There's no such thing as safe sex. I wish people would stop pretending that there is.

244 Absurd. Men are NOT pigs. Have you ever seen a pig jerk off? No opposable thumbs - not possible. Men are more like monkeys - we'll beat our dicks like an illegal combatant with no provocation. However, poo-flinging has evolved somewhat into placing it in a flaming paper sack on a front porch.

245 Coincidentally, this kind of sloppy phrasing is exactly why I don't want liberals like slough teaching my kid sex ed. Putting on a condom does not eliminate all risk.l

246

yea, but what about that old saw about pigs having 30 minute orgasms?  I mean c'mon...if that's the case I'd sure as hell want to be a pig!  On the actual topic though, I'd have to agree with being educated by the parents and argue for abstinance until they're sixteen or seventeen at least.  Unfortunately the cats been let out of the bag back before I was born in 79, and I don't think there's any way to bring it back.  The whole doing sex for pleasure, not procreation is just too rampant.

Understanding that there are in fact consequences to your actions, odds being that they'll be harmful to the girl at least is a great point and one that needs to be hammered home by parents. My kid sister got married at age 19 and is now getting a divorce at the ripe old age of 21. Poor decisions often made at a young age? Case in point.

247 How much of liberal idiocy is based on reflexively opposing conservatives? 

Think about it:  most of them are airheads who don't pay attention to what's going on in the world, but let them know that Dick Cheney favors enhanced interrogation techniques, and that's all they need to know!  It's off to the rally with a "NO TORTURE" sign!

What caused this?  Why are liberals so motivated by hate?  That's really what drives them.  Where does it come from?

248

I think it is critical to encourage (in a classroom setting) kids to remain abstinent, just because of the peer pressure.  The more that these kids feel that they're not alone, that they're not "one of the cool kids" for abstaining, but rather amongst the majority, the better it will be to them physically and psychologically.  The better it will be for society.

249 Trimegistus, I think it's because they're unhappy, and they know they're unhappy, and they're jealous that the Christians around them are happy and well-adjusted and have decent values. So the liberals label that 'simple-mindedness' and pride themselves on their 'sophistication' and set out to undermine decent values as much as possible to make everyone as unhappy and angry at the world as they are.

250 I saw the opening to an episode of Boston Legal the other night where a girl who contracted HIV "because her high school teaches abstinence only." wanted to sue the school. Of course she was bright, erudite and capable of understanding that she could legally apply to be emancipated – and yet she went out and had sex with someone who turned out to be HIV positive.

And according to the writers she had no idea what a condon was. Typical leftist drivel.

251

I think that boys need to be taught to have just as much responsiblity for their actions as girls -- it takes two to tango and make a kid after all.  And I'm not hung up on no premarital sex as much as I am no irresponsible sex -- the cachet of the virgin bride just doesn't make much sense to me.  I've known a couple of virgin brides who were unholy scrunts as far as the rest of their personality\ies were concerned, and about the only claim they had was that they "waited" (and one of these liked to brag about how she waited for her husband...and then complained about how she wished marriages could be open because there were a couple of guys she'd like to $%k..."damn, she's a real catch", was all I could think when she started in on being a virgin before marriage and yada yada)...I'd rather my son married a kind hearted girl who'd done the deed but had a lot going for her as a wife and mother than something like those two.  Same for my daughters: marry a good person who looks to be a good bet as a husband and father to your kids, and for both: don't go fooling around with anybody but someone who passes the kid/marriage test...because every time up at the plate that's exactly what could happen...and don't do it until you yourself could pass the kid/marriage test (because even if you don't marry marry them, the mother/father of your kids is somebody you're going to be dealing with for the rest of your life).  Segues great into the talk about watching your own back while chemically impaired...or the waking up next to coyote ugly is bad enough, but having to live with it the rest of your life is the suck kids, so let's be careful out there.

Seems to have worked so far for me at least -- my kids are hardly pure, clean saints, but they've been practically hermit monks compared to their peers (now the "I'm in love and this is The One" stage is one that I'm afraid they're going to have to go through on their own, but at least we got to that stage intact).

252 But of course, children are little adults and want to have sex. They even look old enough to have sex.

253 Yeah, what he had. Baby-fucking is a sign of an enlightened sexual attitude. It is a mark of genius, and totally expected when you've survived the Holocaust and the Manson family.

Signed,

Fatih Akin, Stephane Allagnon, Woody Allen, Pedro Almodovar, Wes Anderson, Jean-Jacques Annaud, Alexandre Arcady, Fanny Ardant, Asia Argento, Darren Aronofsky, Olivier Assayas, Alexander Astruc, Gabriel Auer, Luc Barnier , Christophe Barratier, Xavier Beauvois , Liria Begeja , Gilles Behat, Jean-Jacques Beineix, Marco Bellochio, Monica Bellucci, Djamel Bennecib, Giuseppe Bertolucci , Patrick Bouchitey, Paul Boujenah, Jacques Bral, Patrick Braoudé, André Buytaers, Christian Carion, Henning Carlsen, Jean-michel Carre, Mathieu Celary, Patrice Chéreau, Elie Chouraqui, Souleymane Cissé, Alain Corneau, Jérôme Cornuau, Miguel Courtois, Dominique Crevecoeur, Alfonso Cuaron, Luc et Jean-Pierre Dardenne, Jonathan Demme, Alexandre Desplat, Rosalinde et Michel Deville, Georges Dybman, Jacques Fansten, Joël Farges, Gianluca Farinelli (Cinémathèque de de Bologne), Etienne Faure, Michel Ferry, Scott Foundas, Stephen Frears, Thierry Frémaux, Sam Gabarski, René Gainville, Tony Gatlif, Costa Gavras, Jean-Marc Ghanassia, Terry Gilliam, Christian Gion, Marc Guidoni, Buck Henry, David Heyman, Laurent Heynemann, Robert Hossein, Jean-Loup Hubert, Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu, Gilles Jacob, Just Jaeckin, Alain Jessua, Pierre Jolivet, Kent Jones (World Cinema Foundation), Roger Kahane, Nelly Kaplan, Wong Kar Waï, Ladislas Kijno, Harmony Korinne, Jan Kounen, Diane Kurys, Emir Kusturica, John Landis, Claude Lanzmann, André Larquié, Vinciane Lecocq, Patrice Leconte, Claude Lelouch, Gérard Lenne, David Lynch, Michael Mann, François Margolin, Jean-PierreMarois, Tonie Marshall, Mario Martone, Nicolas Mauvernay, Radu Mihaileanu, Claude Miller, Mario Monicelli, Jeanne Moreau, Sandra Nicolier, Michel Ocelot, Alexander Payne, Richard Pena (Directeur Festival de NY), Michele Placido, Philippe Radault, Jean-Paul Rappeneau, Raphael Rebibo, Yasmina Reza, Jacques Richard, Laurence Roulet, Walter Salles, Jean-Paul Salomé, Marc Sandberg, Jerry Schatzberg, Julian Schnabel, Barbet Schroeder, Ettore Scola, Martin Scorsese, Charlotte Silvera, Abderrahmane Sissako, Paolo Sorrentino, Guillaume Stirn, Tilda Swinton, Jean-Charles Tacchella, Radovan Tadic, Danis Tanovic, Bertrand Tavernier, Cécile Telerman, Alain Terzian, Pascal Thomas, Giuseppe Tornatore, Serge Toubiana, Nadine Trintignant, Tom Tykwer, Alexandre Tylski, Betrand Van Effenterre, Wim Wenders.

EDIT: new names

Isabelle Adjani
Antoine Aronin
Paul Auster
Morgane Beauverger
Candice Belaisch-Goldchmit
Yamina Benguigui
Pascal Bruckner
Jessika Cohen
Philippe Corbé
Jean-Paul Dayan
Katarina De Meulder
Arielle Dombasle
Nathalie Faucheux
Corinne Figuet
Pierre Forciniti
Louis Garrel
Albert Gauvin
Johanna Gozlan
Davide Homitsu Riboli
Taylor Hackford
Isabelle Huppert
Neil Jordan
Thierry Kamami
Milan Kundera
Gaelle Lancien
Claude Lanzmann
Bernard-Henri Lévy
Sam Mendes
Camille Meyer
Patrick Mimouni
Yann Moix
Mike Nichols
Sandra Nicolier
Marie Nieves Perez Neël
Salman Rushdie
Carine Sarna
Ysabelle Saura Del Pan
William Shawcross
Olivier Soares Barbosa
Steven Soderbergh
Nil Symchowicz
Danièle Thompson
Eugenia Varela Navarro
Diane von Furstenberg
Scott Foundas
Margaret Walker
Elsa Zylberstein

Let's not forget the women at NOW and Whoopi "Rape Rape" Goldberg.

254 Ace, you've written some fantastic posts over the course of history. I find this one to be in my personal top 3 of all time. Of course, I agree with the message AND the messenger.

I dig the whole 'hip' thing you brought up; much like the white guilt that rode the current president into office on his unicorn. Caring so much to look like something you're not to get something you don't need.

255 I find it bizarre that with all the sexual education for young kids (some of you said kids in elementary are getting taught?  Please say it's not true) that at the same time, pedophilia and child porn have become the nuclear weapon of crimes.  Guys get caught with a single image in the cache of their computer and get 5 years hard time and a lifetime sex offender sentence.  I read about a girl who was 18+2 weeks who got caught having sex with her 18-3 days boyfriend, got convicted, and is now having trouble finding a place to live near her job due to sex criminal restrictions.  Sentencing has gotten so extreme that you have the bizarre situation of guys who were actually running child sex rings getting the same sentence as some guy caught with a few dozen images, because there's no way to give the worse guy any more severe of a sentence.
It's amazing how society can be so violently reactive regarding child molesting, then basically assist the molester in "grooming" the child by getting them interested in sex, and normalizing it.
As usual, none of this makes any goddamn sense.
I'm glad I don't have kids.  Those of you who do, Lord give you strength.

256 "We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

From the "Abolition of Man" by CS Lewis. Essentially saying the educational system strips any semblance of right and wrong; absolutes vs particulars from teaching. Then the very same group of educators are 'shocked, I tell ya', shocked!' when kids actually do what the educators have promoted.

257

You don't always just have to take a position contrary to us just to prove you're superior.

That is likely the most important part.  How to be with the 'cool kids'.

258

Study Finds Abstinence-Only Programs May Work

I could have told you that.

259 Ace, I mostly just troll your blog, but for once I'm gonna break form and say something nice: this was a very good post.

Also, your sister gave me an STD, so I'm getting on board with the whole abstinence thing, after all.

260 I've met and read from not a few people that traditions everywhere should be destroyed. Probably for no other reason than that they don't like some certain tradition. Maybe they are pissed that they their parents made them set the table fork left and knife right.

I presume they intend for only Westeners to adopt this cultural destruction.

261 Encouraging younger people to refrain from having sex until they are older is a good thing.  It is all too easy to do things that you regret when you are older.  Sex is a very good thing, but it is also something that requires a lot of responsibility handle properly.  Unchecked, the human libido is a dangerous thing.  Teaching kids to gain control over their libido, rather than allowing it to control them, is a very good idea.  This is precisely what people should be learning when they are young. 

What isn't a good idea is lying to kids about sex.  So much of the "wait training" that I've read about seems to be disinformation and scare mongering, which doesn't do anyone any good.

Of course the real question that all of this always brings to mind for me is, why on earth is this something that the schools are tasked with as some kind of special duty? 

Kids don't have to learn how to tie their shoelaces in school, or how to feed themselves, or wipe their asses.  So why are schools somehow the place where they need to go to learn about sex?  Such learning should be part of a kid's everyday life, not something requiring special attention from the kid's school.

It isn't that I think discussions about sex have NO place in school.  Quite the contrary, I think discussions about sex have a place EVERYWHERE because sex should be freely discussed, just like any other subject.  It's just that I find it kind of silly to pretend that kids are really learning anything fundamental about sex in school.  How can they be? 

What kinds of kids are these that they don't know what's what by the time they reach junior high?

Now maybe I'm exceptional, but I always tried to learn as much as I could about sex when I was growing up (and I don't mean from porn either.)  I'd go to the library and find books on the subject, like the Joy of Sex.  Nowadays with the internet, the library is obsolete.  There's more information out there that's just a click away than I ever had access to back when I was a kid. 

Yet our society persists in this delusion that specially trained handlers have to be brought into classrooms to oh-so-carefully reveal the secrets of human reproduction to the sexually unaware. 

I find the entire concept ridiculous.

People fuck and fucking is how girls get pregnant and have babies.  Anyone past the age of 8 or so who doesn't know this, is probably retarded or has been raised in isolation on a polygamist compound somewhere in rural Utah (same difference really). 

Sex should be treated as a normal and ordinary part of human existence and not a topic to inspire hand wringing, histrionics, and efforts at disinformation and obfuscation.  In a world where anyone worth a damn has internet access, such efforts at lying are futile anyway and will only inspire disdain from those who are subjected to them.

262 # 267

I have ZERO sympathy for someone who collects child pornography.  There is no excuse for that.  When someone acts as a consumer of child pornography they are a party to the sexual abuse required to create it.  You can't have snuff films without someone being murdered, and you cannot have child pornography without a child being molested. 

That being said, I'm not willing to convict someone based solely upon what shows up in their image cache.  I've found all sorts of bizarre things in mine that I certainly was not looking for.  The standard for a criminal conviction is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and finding strange things in someone's cache does not meet that standard. 

I feel sorry for the young couple you mentioned.  They did nothing wrong.  The moral of the story however is to be aware of the law and to keep your fucking mouth shut.  Don't ever confess to anything under any circumstances.  Don't say anything, demand a lawyer, and keep your mouth shut. 

Young people are generally penalized for being young, and this has only gotten worse in the almost 20 years since I myself was a teenager.  Back when I was in high school, a case such as that would never have even been subject to police involvement, let alone resulted in a fraudulent conviction and labelling of a normal young woman as a "sex offender."  How does that protect anyone?  Are children safer now because the government pretends that she is a threat to them?  Kids are not made safer when the government cries wolf.  If anything they are endangered because people will take the classification of sex offender less seriously, and that is not something that should be trivialized by applying it where it does not belong.  That scarlet letter should be worn by the monsters who deserve it, not by this woman. 

That being said, the monsters who do deserve it shouldn't even be out on the street anyway.  If someone is a rapist or a child molester, lock them up, throw away the key, or simply take them out somewhere and put two in the back of their head. 

Contrary to popular belief, pedophilia can be cured, though the patient never survives the operation.

263 It's much better news than I expected, but I'm concerned about that 1/3 who still go on to have sex. What do we do about them? This leads to STDs, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, and young girls - especially in the cities - who wind up on welfare as teens. The societal ramifications are all negative here. What's the answer for these kids?

264 I don't buy this notion that you have to have sex before you're married just to see whether you like one another. Even if it's unrealistic, I'm going to teach my children to abstain from sex until they're married.

265

(1) When in doubt, liberalism trumps everything else. Despicably, this apparently even applies in this case when you have kids.

(2) There is something else going on with this whole edgy, hip, jaded, faux sophisticated, intellectual vibe that liberals so desire to cultivate and embrace. Can't put my finger on it, but it's all part of baby boomers' growing older and becoming less "cutting edge" as they age, Hollywood lefty celeb sucking up, anti-Palin sentiment from people who ought to be her allies, creases in Obama's pants, etc. Don't know quite what this is, but trust me, these people (and many 'moderates') are desperate to be thought of as hip, nuanced, intellectual, whatever.

266 The only success I've ever had at persuading a liberal that teen sex was wrong was science based. When you point out the biological function of sex is to create offsping and that it is a biological disadvantage to allow people that cannot care for potential offspring to engage in sex you get a 50/50 split. Some of them will go all "reproductive freedom" on you and the other half will go all "protect the children." Still you can rope some of them in because you can't argue the biological function and there aren't any Christian overtones to those points. Plus, some liberals will protect your rights because they feel they have to until you can give them a plausible reason to embrace their inner facist.

267 This subject is related to gay rights.  Yeah, it really is.  You have to remember how liberals think.  Since liberals are not capably of logic and rational thought, their entire belief system revolves around those things they already believe in.  All logic and thought processes of a liberal must, by necessity, lead back to what they have already determined to be true and just.

First and foremost, as Ace concluded, is that any idea presented by a conservative is wrong.  Conservative=Christian Right=Evil with a capital E.

When it comes to sex, a liberal cannot make any judgment about the sexual behavior of others without undermining gay rights.  This is especially true of children because so many homosexuals admit they became sexually active at very young ages.

The homosexual "community" considers sex at the age of 8-10 to be perfectly normal.  I have read many accounts from gays themselves who have no problem recounting their first sexual relationship at that young of an age.  I have also followed such discussions and watched (in horror) as liberals accept this premise as being perfectly normal.  Not only do liberals view sex between two children normal, they are willing to accept the premise that pedophilia is nothing more than a misunderstood sexual preference.  As long as it's same sex sex and pedophilia, that is.

I've been absolutely amazed at the hoops liberals will jump through to justify the behavior of a group they consider noble.

268

Actually, Jaynie59, in your case conservative equates with S=stupid.

"The homosexual "community" considers sex at the age of 8-10 to be perfectly normal." Really? Where'd you see that? I'd be happy to agree with you if you offer some proof.

I'm sure you could find a way to link the 'homosexual agenda' with nuclear power, the budget deficit, rising gas prices, or anything else you like.

Unfortunately, dealing with facts is different. Abstinence - last I checked - was instituted by a Republican administration to discourage heterosexual intercourse.

My theory is use anything that works - we have to keep teens who are too young from having sex. If abstinence works, great.

But we also might think about all those sexual images our society bombards young people with - in music, video games, ads, etc. - even toys for pre-teen girls. We also muight think about the fact that society has changed in the last century dfrom one in which children were working at 10-12 and only living 35-40 years to today's, in which they aren't considered adults until they're 18, but human biology equips them to have babies at 13-14 or even younger.

And I'll pose my question again, since nobody here seems to want to answer it. What do we do about the 1/3 who engage in sexual intercourse anyway?

269 What the hell is wrong with expecting and demanding that your children wait until they are married????  They most likely won't if you have the attitude that "their going to do it anyway".  Waiting certainly worked well for Mrs. Bone and me.  No kind of hangups whatsoever.  No regrets, no self-esteem problems, only positives.  Now we have three beautiful young children.  This mantra that "their going to do it anyway" kills me.  I'm sure that they are when this is what they get from their own parents.   

270

"What the hell is wrong with expecting and demanding that your children wait until they are married????  They most likely won't if you have the attitude that "their going to do it anyway"."

I don't think most parents, at least the ones I know, liberal or conservative, think that way. I don't. But my 20 yr old son knows how to use protection.

Of course I don't want him getting a girl pregnant or coming home with an STD, but kids sometimes do foolish things depsite all our lectures. I wouldnt want him driving drunk either, but that doesn't mean he might not get drunk, and I want him to understand he has to call his mother or me to pick him up. To me, it's about them understanding precautions.

If you feel that's the parent's obligation rather than the school's, I'm not disagreeing with you. But somebody should be telling them about it.

271 Okay, I'll bite.  Why is it SO horrible if kids have sex*?

I'm serious.  What's the big deal?  Yes, there are risks, but you don't see the same kind of hand-wringing over 21-year-old college students taking those exact same risks.  Why?  Is it any less tragic if a promising pre-med student contracts HIV or has her medical career derailed by an unplanned pregnancy?

The fundamental disconnect is in both liberals AND conservatives.  It's not a right-or-left issue.  It's a cultural one, and it's causing all of us, conservatives and liberals and moderates and whatever-else alike, some pretty painful cognitive dissonance that results in us fighting over what schools should teach about sex and pointing fingers when children still wind up pregnant and/or diseased.

The problem is the taboo itself.  Why does sex need to have a stigma attached to it?  Why does it need to be taboo?  The ONLY thing this accomplishes is to instill fear, guilt, doubt, shame, and other negative emotions in people (not just children, adults too -- this whole sex-is-evil-and-bad-well-except-when-it's-good thing is making shrinks filthy stinking rich).  But just as hungry people with the means will sooner or later find a way to eat, able-bodied and free human beings with a sex drive (there's a handful without one) will sooner or later find a way to have sex.  And trying to pretend that there is anything "wrong" with this is where the problem lies.  This is a problem that plagues people all over the political spectrum, because those of us who grew up in America grew up being exposed to a puritanical mindset (it permeates American culture) whereby even those of us who intellectually understand there's something wrong with trying to deny people basic sexual agency can't always get away from the indoctrination that sex, especially for kids, is Bad And Wrong (TM).

Yes, people need to understand the consequences and risks (physical and emotional) of sex, and responsible education will teach children this.  But making sex into this Big Deal, this holy grail of entry into legitimate adulthood, makes it into much more than it needs to be (and paradoxically probably part -- I said PART -- of the reason so many kids who aren't ready to have sex do it anyway).

Here's the thing.  Kids have sexual desire from an extremely young age, well before puberty.  Many (most?) children start masturbating before they even start school.  Maybe instead of making them feel as though there is something wrong with them for wanting to do something that is specially reserved for adults (again, WHY?) we should be talking to them openly about where their needs and feelings might lead them so that they can be equipped to make better decisions.  Indeed, it strikes me as particularly bizarre that religious conservatives -- those who are always going on about how "natural" heterosexual intercourse is and how it's a healthy, "God-given" desire -- are so threatened by the notion that their children would experience the same desires they have for likely most of their lives.

And in fact, you might be surprised by what the "abstinence-only" class actually taught.  The teachers leading the "abstinence-only" class didn't bring up birth control themselves -- but answered honestly any questions that were asked.  The kids weren't taught that sex is wrong or bad or some gigantic elephant in the room to be avoided -- they were simply taught about the possible consequences of having sex and allowed to draw their own conclusions about the advisability of intercourse.

Finally, it's worth noting that the percentages were based on SELF-REPORTING.  It's certainly far from inconceivable that kids who went to an "abstinence-only" class might feel more pressure to under-report their sexual activity, whereas kids in the safe sex course might feel freer to be honest (or perhaps, even, to over-report, as certain teens are wont to do).

* with each other.  Disparate power relationships and similar problems that arise in adult-child couplings are the kind of thing I imagine there isn't a ton of disagreement on, though feel free to unfairly accuse me of being pro-pedophilia (I'm not) given that I'm one of them libruls and all.

272 LeGal, do you have kids?

273 http://tinyurl.com/kickassshotgun

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