1 But not a single NASA worker is there.  I wonder why the soon to be employed are not at this political rally?

2 Calm down, Drew. Obama is every bit as professional as Randy Jackson. "Yo, yo, yo, dog - check it out. I thought the debate was a little bit pitchy, but the abuse of power was HOT, yo! Where my dogs at?"

3 "Let me be 100% clear..." I walked into the room with this idiot on and in the ten seconds I was in there, he had to go with the "let me be clear" shit. What are the odds?

4 "In the house" is a juvenile expression and simply an unworthy way to refer to these types of events.
-----------
'Sides which, it's only funny if he says "in da house".

5
Buzz Aldrin gave a speech at a conference I was at a couple months ago. 

He was decrying the decline in space exploration similarly to Armstrong, although he didn't specifically mention Obama.  I seriously doubt that he likes the president's vision for NASA.

6 Has he used the word "cosmonaut" yet?

7

>> Partner with private sector for access to low earth orbit

And Buzz Aldrin hosed this kind of stuff in his little talk.  He specifically called out Richard Branson's Spaceship One, saying it wasn't really in space.

8 What exactly did Obama cancel?  Are they still building that rocket that will replace the shuttle?

9 What an inspiring guy!

10  He forgot to use his Negro dialect like http://tinyurl.com/cjwezj.

11 what ever happened to the plan to build an elevator to space?

12 So, he's a rocket scientist, too.  Who knew.

Here's the big question:  When will Andy Stern be appointed to head up NASA?

13

"In the house" is a juvenile expression and simply an unworthy way to refer to these types of events.

at least he hasn't said, "men be acting all like zombies at the mall"

14 Don't worry, our astronauts will just have to take the bus up to the ISS, just like everyone else. And by bus, I mean pay the Russians $50 million a throw in hard currency to hitch a ride on their Model T Soyuz rockets. It's not just thrifty, it offsets our carbon footprint!

15 big whoop, 6 billion over 5 years (and that's after his cuts from last year). Wish they would stop NASA from doing shit to the Earth, sorry but that shit isn't your realm

16 Comparing this speech to  Bush's constellation speech years ago, Obama is uninspiring.

17

>> Partner with private sector for access to low earth orbit

And Buzz Aldrin hosed this kind of stuff in his little talk.  He specifically called out Richard Branson's Spaceship One, saying it wasn't really in space

Buzz Aldrin is letting his pent up anger at being # 2 out.

18 Obama: Man! What's it gonna take to get my name put on this place? I'm in da house!

19
How much to launch Da Won into orbit?
That's a program I could support.

20

Don't worry, our astronauts will just have to take the bus up to the ISS, just like everyone else.

And by bus, I mean pay the Russians $50 million a throw in hard currency to hitch a ride on their Model T Soyuz rockets.

It's not just thrifty, it offsets our carbon footprint!

funny thing is they only charge 20 million for private citizens

21

Buzz Aldrin is letting his pent up anger at being # 2 out.

Posted by: Liam McPoyle at April 15, 2010 03:15 PM (wuv1c)

we just need more people to ask him why they faked the moon landing

22

Bush makes less than a million in one year and all of the sudden he is a tool for corporations and big oil. Obama makes 5.5 million. Can't wait to see what people say about that. I'm guess it will be "that's the price of being a genius."

23 I look forward to the day that Obama is no longer 'in the house'. 

24
I'm tired of all this mothrafrackin Tang up inside this mothrafrakin space station!

25 Can congress override the President's Plan and reinstate the Constellation program?

26 And Buzz Aldrin hosed this kind of stuff in his little talk.  He specifically called out Richard Branson's Spaceship One, saying it wasn't really in space.

Talk about a straw man. NASA's not offering sub-orbital rides anyway. And in any case, Space-X is really in space with the Falcon and soon Falcon 9.

And for a lot cheaper than anything NASA does.

Space-X is building a crew capsule too, Dragon. They might spend somewhere north of 500 million on it. NASA is going to blow 3 billion (if history is any indication, this will balloon to closer to 6 billion) on the downgraded, shrunken "lifeboat" version of Orion, which will have only a subset of Dragon's abilities.

27 Says we don't have to go back to the Moon to get to Mars because we've been there. Not a lot of applause for that because they know it's stupid.

oh god I wish I was watching this, that's on a whole nother level of retarded. Yeah, because we totally won't need the moon to launch a shuttle to Mars as we can do it in one go *snickers*

28 "These are the questions whose answers will reap untold benefits on here on Earth." -- The Precedent being as stupid as he usually is.

He also said that we don't have to go to the Moon because we've already been there - "because Buzz was there" [paraphrased].

Of course, this was Britain's great mistake, to keep coming back to America after they had already been here.  What a bunch of idiots ...

Is it even possible to express how much of insufferable ass this Indonesian Imbecile is?  I don't think so.

And these NASA asses are ticking me off by clapping for the illiterate on stage.  Pathetic.

29

Dear Chris,

No, we're not going to finance a second expedition to those places you found last time.  After all, its just a bunch of palm trees and we've already been there.

Shout out to Filipa.

30 Did he say when the ISS is getting new rims?

31 This space thing is COOL, yo! And I jus' want you to know that we gonna be all up in this mothafucker! Now, everyone put your hands together and go woof woof woof woof 'cause we have here in tha house COMMANDER SPOCK OF VULCAN! Spock's gonna be gettin' on tha mike with a message and shit for all you homeslices so give him ya props! Peace, I'm outta here.

_{Spock, kudos on that whole rejecting-your-mother's-heritage thing.}

32 He does rocket surgery with his mind!

33

Buzz Aldrin is letting his pent up anger at being # 2 out.

Posted by: Liam McPoyle at April 15, 2010 03:15 PM (wuv1c)

Buzz will end up in history as the backer of the traitor Precedent in another one of his moronic attempts to kill America.  Buzz should be ashamed of himself.

34 The rapper lingo is completely unnecessary & he knows better. So is the insinuated "I blame Bush", but he won't give that part up b/c he's too attached to it.

35 Oh, Jesus Shep!  Who the fuck asked you?

36 B+rry is the definition of douche-baggery.

37

NASA has to come up with breakthrough propulsion technologies. Space bio-fuels!

yeah, 50 years or so from now. The tech just isn't there right now to go any real distance

38 Is anyone buying this crap anymore? 

39 I am going to punch Shep in the mouth.  (if I ever get a chance)

40

It sounds like the Line of Demarcation is between those who recognize that, in the Here and Now, it's a complete national embarrassment that we have to thumb a ride to get into space, and those who are enamored with a lot of Pie-in-the-Sky ideas that have no way of ever being funded.

Aldrin even included having some non-US organization do something, as part of his plan.  Hey, Buzz, here's a newsflash for ya! They don't have to do what we want! (Ironically, it his side - the left - that is constantly criticizing the US for using its influence). These guys live in such a fantasy world!  All while a $10B investment is flushed down the toilet.

It's amazing how people as smart as astronauts would buy this BS for even a nanosecond, but people - even smart ones - find ways to believe what they want to believe, don't they?

41 The rapper lingo is completely unnecessary & he knows better.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 15, 2010 03:22 PM (yfJ6g)

Actually, he doesn't know better.  The Indonesian Imbecile is ... well, an imbecile.  And, on top of that, he just wants to denigrate everything about America.  Denigration is his intermediate goal - until he can complete his suicide bombing run with massive actual destruction.

42
He also said that we don't have to go to the Moon because we've already been there
Same reason he doesn't bang Michelle
"I've already crawled through that crater"

43 Shep's guest is destroying him!  :lol

44 He couldn't do this in Houston, at NASA hq? I don't think he's set foot in Texas since the March 2008 primary, and we're pretty damned hard to miss over here.

He should be down here begging Governor Adios Mofo for tips on how to lower the unemployment rate.

45 I vote to send B+rry on on the first mission to Mars...by himself. We'll let his union thug buddies do the fueling. Any money they save they get to keep.

46 I gave up on NASA after the Challenger event. It was easy to see that they had become just another government sink hole of BS.

I say turn it all over to private companies. IOW get the government out and deregulate space travel.  Note that's deregulate, not the normal re-regulate and call it deregulate.

47

Did he pronounce Orion correctly this time.  A year or so ago he pronounced it as O -re -on instead of o-RI-on. 

  

Posted by: polynikes at April 15, 2010 03:25 PM (m2CN7)

Yeah, he got it right this time.  They worked with him, phonetically, on it.  Of course, he learns most of his speeches phonetically - and he studied law phonetically at Harvard ...

48 Please, people, don't get ME involved with this douchenozzle.

49 Probably the most annoying aspects of Obama is how defensive he is. He always gets into his "there are those who say" and "let me be clear" modes and it is just getting old. He certainly learned from the previous administration to not let anything go unchallenged but he takes it to such an extreme. So the reason we won't go back to the moon is we already have been there? What kind of stupid thinking is that - there is much more to learn. And is anybody listening to Shepard Smith? He bought Obama's BS hook, line and sinker. What was he promised in return for this for this virtual BJ? Or is he auditioning for MSNBC now? And he is attacking former NASA engineer Homer Hickam as if he does not know what he is talking about. It is time Fox News fires this fool...

50

51 You can tell when Obama cares about stuff and when he doesn't. This is the latter.

Which is probably why it's the only decent plan his administration has come up with on any issue - he doesn't give a shit, so he handed it over to actual experts.

52
Government is like the moon. It's made of cheese and the Earth revolves around it. But the important thing is that it provides a great service to the people by providing light at night and pretty waves on the beach.

53
He uses his blackberry when he needs to get phonetically.

54 The interesting sneaky on this, is that the Orion-lite is basically (I expect) going to be launched on existing vehicles like the Delta IV Heavy and derivatives, like the Atlas V Heavy. This provides a backup for failure in the Falcon system.

55 I do not watch Shep and have not for almost a year.. I heard on Rush this am that the workers at Kennedy are not allowed in the room,,, even thought he is going to "speak " to the workers... they are mad at the One

56

Which is probably why it's the only decent plan his administration has come up with on any issue - he doesn't give a shit, so he handed it over to actual experts.

Leaving the Russians in charge of our manned launches and ephemeral 2030s promises are not worth a shit.

Just thought I would clear that up.

57 How many spacemen can you land on the moon before it starts to capsize?

58
wow cool, tonight on Hannity will be Fred 'the snoozer' Thompson and Joe the Plumber, for a special tax-day edition.

Should be pretty good if they can avoid the Hannity platitudes and speak substantively about the issues.

59 Transforming the Orion capsule, which was supposed to be part of the lunar mission, into a rescue capsule for the ISS. Talk about a shrinking mission. -------- Probably be cheaper to buy Soyuz capsules from the Russians.

60

By the way--we've already been to space...so why go back?

This guys drives me nuts.

61 NASA = government employees.

62 Should be pretty good if they can avoid the Hannity platitudes and speak substantively about the issues.

Posted by: Speed Buggy at April 15, 2010 03:31 PM (uFokq)

Dreamer

63 Yo, no more space shizzle mizzles into spizzle, dawg!  Buzz Aldrizzle in the hizzouse!

64 Out: Or-i-on capsule for the lunar mission

In: Or-ee-on rescue capsule for the ISS

65 Can congress override the President's Plan and reinstate the Constellation program?

Yes they can, and there's a move afoot to do just that.  My guess is it will succeed, too.  From Congress's perspective NASA exists for one reason and one reason only - to funnel government money into politically important districts.

They can't risk the possibility money will go to some random district because that's where engineering innovation is taking place.

66

he wants to send astronauts to an asteroid

I think Obama has been watching too many movies.

67
NASA isn't the old NASA since it turned into a diversity program.

68 Buzz Aldrin has become the Bart Stupak of space.

Good going, there, Buzz.  You screwed up a beautiful career by siding with the only real America-hater to ever occupy the White House, all in support of stupid policy that will help others who 'like it, or not, we're a space superpower ... not!!'.  Atta boy, Buzz.

69
oh, and Sen Bob Nelson is a joke. Didn't he buy his way onto the shuttle?

70

he wants to send astronauts to an asteroid

I think Obama has been watching too many movies.

I was just thinking that. WTF?

71 69 Buzz Aldrin has become the Bart Stupak of space.

If only. Stupak at least could have secured a few new spaceports for the moon.

72
haha, don't forget President Informercial recently said he would not 'militarize' space with weapons. Fucking jerk.

73 If only. Stupak at least could have secured a few new spaceports for the moon.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 15, 2010 03:37 PM (LuqCE)

Heh.  True.

74 Does anyone with a functioning brain really give a fuck what Shep says?

75 There will be a quick turn-around by Obama if it's found that SPACE ALIENS want to come to the US.

76 The success of this now depends on NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden's political acumen. There is a huge amount of behind-the-scenes room provided by the Obama plan. However, problems with the transition team has left Bolden with an unusually weak bench. It remains to be seen if he can pull this out. A) The Moon v. Mars v. Other stuff debate will be revisited in 2015 with a decision on heavy launch. Depends, in large measure, on int'l cooperation and progress of Chinese (who should have at least one rover on the Moon by then). B) Orion-lite lifeboat is fascinating. Look for that to be the next US spaceship. However, given the Orion announcement, don't expect any of the big aerospace firms to develop independent capabilities. C) The big, big loser in all this is ATK. Given the probable work for Boeing/Lockheed (in the guise of the United Launch Alliance), the odds of Congress overturning this are rather low.

77 Does anyone with a functioning brain really give a fuck what Shep says?

Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Professional Debate Team at April 15, 2010 03:38 PM (erIg9)

Absolutely. He's the only guy on FOX I can listen to.

78

Hickam, not Hickman - the guy taught himself how to build frickin' rockets so he could fight the damn Reds in space - show some respect.

79 Obama hates space because of that unfortunate probing thing when he was in Chicago

80 Leaving the Russians in charge of our manned launches and ephemeral 2030s promises are not worth a shit.

a) the Russians were going to be "in charge" of manned launches anyway. Constellation wouldn't have produced anything until 2015 or 2016 - assuming NASA had a huge funding boost, which was never going to happen.

b) Falcon/Dragon will be ready sooner than Constellation would have. So NASA can send some government employees to LEO on an American rocket. Yay.

c) $1 billion per launch (Shuttle) vs $50 million per launch (Soyuz). Someone's doing it right, and someone's doing it wrong.

d) who cares what launcher NASA uses to get an astronaut into space? Getting astronauts to the ISS is hardly a national security issue. At best it's a point of national pride, which is a stupid reason to blow 950 million per launch on a government jobs program.

e) Constellation was an ephemeral 2030s promise too - with its cost overruns and performance shortfalls it was extremely unlikely to ever get anyone to the moon.

81
Remember MARS ATTACKS and MARTIANS vaporized President JACK NICHOLSON and then anally probed ALEX KEATON whose mom has really nice big tits?

82
Obviously, our white astronauts destroyed the moon's atmosphere on their missions there.

83 73
haha, don't forget President Informercial recently said he would not 'militarize' space with weapons. Fucking jerk.
Posted by: Speed Buggy

That's truly idiotic.

84 Orion missions to asteroids aren't at all ludicrous. Remember, it's not the distance to things in space, it's the amount of energy needed to get there. There was some discussion of a 2013 asteroid mission in the earliest incarnation of Bush's 2004 Vision for Space Exploration.

85

Florida, Texas, and Alabama are going to get some serious pain from the lost aerospace jobs that Constellation was promising. And a lot of those jobs aren't going to be picked up elsewhere -- they are gone. If Boeing, Lockheed, or one of the smaller players needs engineers or rocket-men, they're going to go to India or Korea (or just do the work there in the first place). A privatized space-travel market is also a much cheaper and more competitive one...and American aerospace companies are not at all well-positioned to compete in that marketplace.

This is why I think the "private sector will save the space program!" rhetoric is off-base. We haven't spent any time building up a private-sector infrastructure for aerospace, and most smaller firms don't see much benefit in going into that business: start-up costs are (ahem) astronomical, with little short-term profit. It's still not clear to many people what human space travel is for. Why are we sending human beings out there? Where's the profit in doing so?

I'm a huge proponent of space-travel, but our whole approach over the post-Apollo era has been so profoundly dumb that I despair. In another century or so the private-sector may be able to turn a buck off of on-orbit and supply missions, but that day is far off -- only the governments of the world have the resources and wherewithal to build out the infrastructure needed for the private sector to move in.

 

86

Jonah Goldberg will also be on Hannity this evening.  FWIW. 

 

87 c) $1 billion per launch (Shuttle) vs $50 million per launch (Soyuz). Someone's doing it right, and someone's doing it wrong.

It's not $50m per launch.  It's $50m per seat.

88 Whoa - where did the land on an asteroid stuff come from? Are we looking for mynocks?

89 I hope we discover some Space People to discriminate against. My white guilt count is getting pretty low.

90 Its simple enough.  O hates the space program because it reflects how America is an exceptional country, and he doesn't want us to be an exceptional country.

PS - after all these years I had a prediction come true (sign me up national enquirer), I predicted CBS would come out with a poll showing a +10 approval for O now that he was crossing over in the aggregation of polls and sure enough +10. Ok everybody could have predicted it but its a first for me.

91
It's not $50m per launch.  It's $50m per seat.

Posted by: Ace's liver at April 15, 2010 03:45 PM (LtIsn)

And the cost for overhead baggage is nothing to sneeze at, either!

But ... I trust the same country that loves to turn the gas off for Europe on every few cold, wintry days - just for kicks and some extra money.  Yep ...

92 @Waterhouse/81 A) Don't be too certain on Falcon 9. Given the historical difficulties of new launch vehicles, and the problems thus far with Falcon 1, it might well be until 2015 until they have something operational with Dragon. B) Don't conflate the $50 million per passenger with the $1 bn per launch. Secondly, the costing for Shuttle launches is very tricky, given the fixed and marginal cost breakdown. Thirdly, with Soyuz you get no cargo, and no robotic arm. So this price comparison is very clearly apples-to-oranges. C) W/r/t to caring about who sends astronauts in to space, it's more a matter of concern about not giving Medvedev/Putin monopoly control on US access to space in general, and the future of the ISS in particular.

93 Isn't the conservative mantra 'the private sector does everything a lot better than the govt'?

94

Countdown with Shepard Smith after Obly gets the axe.

I'm calling it.

95 T minus 6 months 17 days to shoot Obama into the Sun.

96 Just heard on the radio, I think on Rush, that the "prez" according to barberi on NBC "thinks he is going to be talking to the workers but the workers weren't invited" so "instead he will be talking to 200 specially invited people"...

That's odd why would he say he is going there to talk to the workers and instead talk to the dignitaries...and who are the 200 specially invited?

97

His press briefing had him speaking to the "wokers" . Two things, What happened to the word "employee"? And if it's only NASA muketymucks who are there, why are they not workers, do they not work there? I hate this "worker" crap. It ............is..............so.................communist.

98 oh and the gaia funny thread....has gone tot he dogs...

99 89 Whoa - where did the land on an asteroid stuff come from? Are we looking for mynocks? Posted by: jean

I think someone mentioned the whole near-earth asteroid problem. Or maybe, as was said somewhere up-thread, Obama saw a movie.

Never mind that we should have space-based industry. That's too capitalistic, or something.

100 Isn't the conservative mantra 'the private sector does everything a lot better than the govt'?

Posted by: JEA at April 15, 2010 03:49 PM (X5rHG)

Of course it does, but what private sector for launch vehicles are you thinking about? 

Oh, you're not thinking.  Okey doke.

101
Posted by: JEA

STFU, dunce.

102 The Old Negro Space Program

http://tiny.cc/ff1qs

103

NASA is one of the few government programs that actually has delivered tangible benefits to the citizens (the military isn't a program, BTW).  Think of all that we have in the commercial market b/c of the space program. 

I like smaller gov't more than most, but one proper role of government is to explore and conquer new lands.  That's what we did with teh moon, even if we have rhetorically agreed that the moon is not "owned" by anyone.  We do own it, bitches, as we do space, but we are letting it slip away, unheeded.

I hate this guy for dragging us down.

104

NASA = government employees.

Hang on here a second. Didn't the Mars Rover go for months or years longer than was predicted? And isn't that also true of many of the space-craft that NASA has put up?

Not everything is wrong with them.

105 Isn't the conservative mantra 'the private sector does everything a lot better than the govt'?

Posted by: JEA at April 15, 2010 03:49 PM (X5rHG)

You're not even trying anymore, buddy. Last warning!

106

Shep just said, "I don't see where the detractors of this President get off". Man, he'd be at home at MSNBC.

Ah say, Ah say. That boy's dumber than a box 'o' wet cardboard....

107 Isn't the conservative mantra 'the private sector does everything a lot better than the govt'?

Posted by: JEA at April 15, 2010 03:49 PM (X5rHG)

The private sector has built everything we shot into space so what is your point?

108 Posted by: JEA at April 15, 2010 03:49 PM (X5rHG)

And space is a true issue of national security, genius, which is one of the ONLY real expenditures that the federal government is allowed - unlike all that illegal crap that you libtards love to waste our money on.

109

Waterhouse and others who are going into serious apologetic for this guy and "Hey, NASA sucks! Rah rah free enterprise!" modes here:

Yes, it stinks that the shuttle costs a billion a launch.  It sucks even more to pay the Russians...for anything...at any time.  I'd rather we pay two billion a launch to send nerf footballs into a suborbital path.  Anyone that thinks we curry facor with Vladimir Putin by writing him checks should check the whole Iran thing again.  Things are connectedy like that.

Yes, there is a great deal of symbolism involved in all space efforts.  That is not something we should be ashamed of.

Fix NASA.  Go to the moon.  Go to Mars.  Keep our technology cutting edge.  We're not going to do that by navel-gazing about "climate change" or being deliberately vague about objectives.

As for the private sector Paulbot-equivalents:  The private sector cannot ensure access to space for the private sector.  Relying on the goodwill of other countries for that access is a national suicide wish.  Things are connectedy like that.

 

110
JEA, the dunce, reminds me of one of the arguments I overheard at the rally, yesterday.

A group of leftist-haters counter protesters were saying since we hated taxes so much we probably want to close all the fire stations, too. Yeah, I know, great argument. They got us. Gotta admit.

Taxes are good and patriotic. Government knows best. All the time.

111 this is off topic but are the TEA party things a success.  Saw one report on fox this morning and it didn't look like anyone showed up.  I hope that isn't true, I hope people went.

112
I want missiles on the moon. It's a good place to put all our old nukes Obama wants to destroy and the missiles will come in handy in case we're attacked by aliens.

113 That's what we did with the moon, even if we have rhetorically agreed that the moon is not "owned" by anyone.  We do own it, bitches, as we do space, but we are letting it slip away, unheeded.

Posted by: s'moron at April 15, 2010 03:55 PM (UaxA0)

Damn tootin' we own the Moon.  That's why we put our flag there.  Contrary to what the America-hating, flag burning libs think, the planting of a flag is a clear indication of ownership and control and has always carried an accepted legal meaning of the same with it.

114 Catapults, the wave of the future.

115 HH @ #106 -

You are correct - my apologies. Struck with gloom, for some reason.

116
well, my local news ninny is reporting "hundreds of conservatives have descended upon Washington to protest taxes."

Hundreds.

117 Ok, you lefty trolls want to go all Adam Smith on the space program -- make it worthwhile. Mining rights, in perpetual, to the Moon, Mars, and Asteroids for the first guys to get there -- similar to how land grants worked for the railroads?

118 I have to be honest. I think the whole space program is a waste of time and money. Kill it. but then just plug a hole in the budget with the money.

119 “Those of you who have a seat at the table must do your part to make room for others who don’t,” she said, holding up as an example of leaders who have risen up from humble means Benito Juarez, a celebrated 19th century Mexican president, and her own husband. (NYT) and: "We must confront wrong and outdated ideas and assumptions that only certain young people deserve to be educated, that girls aren't as capable as boys, that some young people are less worthy of opportunities because of their religion or disability or ethnicity or socioeconomic class. Because we have seen time and again that potential can be found in some of the most unlikely places," she said. "My husband and I are living proof of that." (WaPo) It really is all about them-- (cribbed from Michellesmirror.com)

120

You folks have to cut me some slack here. It's hard to post, let alone think logically when you have to live under your bed, clinging to your Cabbage Patch doll whilst sucking your thumb because of all the illegal, out of state, gun dealers selling Ma deuce M2 50. caliber machine guns to all the disadvantaged kids around my bedroom window.

 

121 I have to be honest. I think the whole space program is a waste of time and money. Kill it. but then just plug a hole in the budget with the money.

Posted by: Jeff at April 15, 2010 04:02 PM (Wvu39)

You do realize that without the space program we wouldn't have tang or velcro don't you?

and about a million other things

122 Thanks for taking one for the team with the Shepster, Drew.  I came in from my Tea Party, sunburned, but fired up.  I turned on Fox, saw Sheppy and broke a fingernail hitting the "off" button.

Any chance we might get a Tea Party thread up this evening?  I've got some great tales, myself, and I'm sure other party-attending morons do as well.  I'm watching Cavuto in Atlanta now. 

123 121 I have to be honest. I think the whole space program is a waste of time and money. Kill it. but then just plug a hole in the budget with the money.

Posted by: Jeff at April 15, 2010 04:02 PM (Wvu39)

Really, where does one begin to counter such a level of unabashed ignorance?

124

I hate this guy for dragging us down.

NASA's been busted for a long longer than Obama's been around, s'moron. The Shuttle was really where the slide began. It was promised as a low-cost, reusable "space plane" that would revolutionize space travel and pave the way back to the moon and mars. Instead, it turned out to be a fragile, dangerous, hideously-expensive test platform that never even remotely lived up to expectations.

It's funny: the Space Shuttle was approved because we needed it as a "space truck" to build Space Station Freedom, but when Freedom was never built, the Shuttle had nothing to do and no purpose. So the bright boys on the Hill decided to use it launch satellites...at vastly more expense and danger to human life than simply sending them up on a rocket. Oh, and the satellites had to be small enough to fit in the Shuttle's cargo bay. When Challenger exploded in 1986, that basically killed the satellite launching business for four years because only the military could use the Atlas/Delta IV platforms at that time.

But the Shuttle, being the old game in town, sucked up all the available cash that might have been spent on a more flexible and intelligent space program. So we pissed away about thirty years circling the earth in a dinky little glider. Our "space station" is a monstrously expensive orbiting junkyard that will be obsolete before it's even finished and which is a complete failure as a scientific or staging platform.

I sometimes dream of the world that could have been had men of vision and integrity been able to bring the original Orion to fruition.

125 it's more a matter of concern about not giving Medvedev/Putin monopoly control on US access to space in general,

Why? It's not "US access to space" in any case - it's manned access only. And it would have been no different under Constellation. Either way, what are NASA astronauts doing that's so incredibly important that some hypothetical case of having Putin somehow put the squeeze on NASA would hurt US interests?

Nothing, that's what. A bunch of government employees get a joyride for a billion dollars a pop. How wonderful.

126

Shep just said, "I don't see where the detractors of this President get off".

Go cake on another layer of clown makeup, pencil dick.

127 We had a heavy launch capability with the Apollo program.  Why not take two proven designs (the Saturn IB and Saturn V) and upgrade?  We KNOW they work!

128 On a day when the heartland is being assaulted by meteors, a wary nation looks to its young Precedent for reassurance...

129
wow the Orioles are picking up right where they left off last season. pathetic.

130

Catapults, the wave of the future.

Yep! Low gravity, go for it!

Of course you have to get those really big rubber bands...

131
brb...

132 As sad as it is that people will lose their jobs with the shuttle shutdown and Constelation/Ares issue, don't sweat this too much. Constellation was never going to 'replace' the shuttle. It would (as it stands now) cost about $1.5b per launch, only take 50% of the cargo the shuttle could take, and only a four person crew. Not worth the investment, certainly not on the taxpayer's dime.

133 95 Isn't the conservative mantra 'the private sector does everything a lot better than the govt'?

Posted by: JEA at April 15, 2010 03:49 PM (X5rHG)

Are you naturally this stupid, or is it something you work on?

134

It's already started, one of my local news stations has the headline "Obama: Americans to Mars in His Lifetime."

Ooooo, squeal, he's just like JFK.

Yeah, polish that knob some more MSM.

135

I guess I subconcisously knew it bared repeating.

Posted by: polynikes at April 15, 2010 04:06 PM (m2CN7)

It can't be said often enough.  The libs always like to disingenuously compare their un-Constitutional federal social spending with defense/security spending by the federal government ... and a lot of conservatives let them get away with it.

The funny part is that every time a lib wants to show how federal spending yields actual results and inventions, it's always defense/security spending that did it.  But, the libs cut that spending, or redirect it to idiotic wastes like the already-blown global warming crap, and then want to argue that more welfare is good because the government invented the internet - though the libs would cut DARPA to nothing if they could, in order to hand out more food stamps.  No conservative should ever let any of these retards get away with this.

136

Of course you have to get those really big rubber bands...

Make sure you buy only genuine ACME^tm Big Rubber Bands.

Also makers of ACME^tm Giant Steel Balls.

137 Meanwhile, my late grandfather who worked on the pads at Canaveral, is spinning in his grave. 

Buzz Aldrin got to ride to the NASA meeting with Barky on AF One.  Hmmmm, what kind of magic did Teh Won work this time? 

138 Waterhouse, do you think that sending folks to the Moon was a waste?

139

You do realize that without the space program we wouldn't have tang or velcro don't you?

and about a million other things

Posted by: robtr at April 15, 2010 04:05 PM (fwSHf)

DON"T BE HATIN ON TEH TANGZ

140

"Obama: Americans to Mars in His Lifetime."

So, what are the odds those Americans will be ordering from a Martian Chinese delivery place?

 

141

We had a heavy launch capability with the Apollo program.  Why not take two proven designs (the Saturn IB and Saturn V) and upgrade?

It wouldn't be possible to duplicate the Saturn stack now even if we wanted to. First of all, the manufacturing infrastructure is gone. Second, the blues and schematics are gone. Third, technology has moved on -- there are many better designs for heavy-lift vehicles than the Apollo-era vehicles.

Apollo-era rockets were the brute-force approach, and did not scale well at all. (We only got back about 2% of the mass we put up into orbit -- the entire gigantic Saturn V returned to us only as the little capsule to top.) If we're ever going to have a cost-effective and scalable approach to space travel, we need to think about infrastructure and technology.

Three-quarters of the problem is making it cheaper to get out of the earth's gravity well; as Heinlein once said, once you're in orbit you're already halfway to wherever you want to go. Chemical rockets (liquid or solid) aren't efficient enough to bring costs down. We're going to need something like a space-elevator or zero-point energy device to make it cheap enough to be practical.

 

142 Monty, good points. I'm reminded of the "Bloom County" cartoon from the late '80s, in which Oliver Jones goes into a fury when the Soviets and NASA both announce their long-term goals on the same day: the Soviets plan a manned Mars mission by 2020, while NASA's primary goal is to launch a new satellite capable of broadcasting "Ishtar" 24 hours a day to Puerto Rico.

143 Monty, its good to see you posting again.

144

DON"T BE HATIN ON TEH TANGZ

I'm not, I have a 15 yo jar of it in my earthquake kit. It looks like it's brand new.

145 Waterhouse, do you think that sending folks to the Moon was a waste?

Yes and no. A lot of good and interesting science and exploration was done, and we learned a lot pushing the limits of technology to get there. But ultimately it was a dead end. It did nothing to build infrastructure or technologies to open access to space for private companies and individuals, which is what I think should be NASA's mandate.

146

Shep is such a stupid sumbitch.  After the guy he had on to discuss NASA's future said Obama's speech was vague , and that NASA's leadership sucked, Shep wondered out loud why "detractors of this President" are always telling him to cut the deficit at the same time they want him to keep existing programs (paraphrasing).

Heh.  NEVER MIND that NASA has been a net generator of revenues, and that its developments have ancillary benefits to military programs, and national security.

  NEVER MIND that people can seek to kill/cut worthless social programs , such as Head Start, while trying to preserve programs that retain people with very scarce skillsets and irreplaceable experience.

NEVER MIND that people want Barack to roll back the astounding levels of debt he's attempting to saddle us with.

Nahhhh....understanding those things would require Shep to be logical and consistent.

But as he once put it, "Consistency is the knob-gobblin' of little minds"

 

 

 

147 Breakthrough propulsion technologies?   For a cool $6 billion I could sell you the plans for this wonderful little design I've been working on called the Phoenix.

148 Buzz Aldrin has become the Bart Stupak of space.

Couldn't agree more. I will always respect Buzz for his achievements, but he is definitely not my favorite astronaut any more. Has he always been a moonbat and I just haven't noticed?

And this has nothing to do with putting space in the hands of the private sector. Privatization is great but there's no motive for industry to go into space. Obama wants to nationalize everything he can get his grubby little paws on. If you think he's serious about privatizing space exploration and travel you haven't been paying attention. This is nothing but a nice, roundabout way of pulling the rug out from under what America could achieve in space. Armstrong and the others had it right - "sliding towards mediocrity." Obama would like for us to be mediocre. He's already stated on many occasions that he doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Why would this be any different?

This is a horrible time to be an engineer looking for work and the NASA job cuts are going to make that even worse. Way to go, Obama.

149

DON"T BE HATIN ON TEH TANGZ

I'm not, I have a 15 yo jar of it in my earthquake kit. It looks like it's brand new.

Little pro painter tip: if you ever have to paint anything orange and don't want to flash cash for real paint, just mix Coffeemate and Tang 50/50. Add a little cheap vodka for solvent=good to go!

 

PS: I'm kidding.

150

We're going to need something like a space-elevator

Monty nails it.  And we could do it.  A little carbon ribbon and some duct tape (I jest, but still it would be doable.) 

But that would take money away from climate change studies.  And with New Jersey's global warming fund under threat from that child-hating governor there, we can't have that, now can we? 

151

Zephram, hi! I was wondering when weÂ’d get a Star Trek reference.

152

Dammit!!! Monty keeps posting what I'm thinking...

I don't mean to be a downer here, but I think the last, best discovery program we will ever see in our lives was Voyager 2. I recorded hours of it, and just seeing stuff that had never been seen before was just awsome.

Unless we send a probe to another Solar System, I don't think that can be beat.

153

Landing a spacecraft on an asteroid will save everyone 3000% in health care premiums, which means that people with asthma will be able to afford their breathalyzers instead of having to steal them from dead relatives.

Let me be clear. We have the will. We have the technology. And we have Buzz Aldrin here in the house ready to take the Millenium Falcon and get up all in that bitch.

154 Well damn, I've waited long enough I guess. I have to go to the post office and spread the wealth around. Later

155

I think the last, best discovery program we will ever see in our lives was Voyager 2.

Except that it returns in three hundred years and tries to kill us all.

Star Trek ref #2.

[Runs from room because it was Star Trek I]

156 I think we know where Shep gets off.

157 If only those fools had had vision enough to equip the shuttles with my M-5 units! We'd own the whole solar system by now!

158 Does this mean I don't get to go where no man has gone before? No hot green chicks? Nothing?

159

Great. Now I have a craving for Tang. Thanks a lot morons.

 

(Anybody else used to just eat it straight as a kid?) Also good mixed with tea.

160

I just read that Shep Smith's audience is adolescent, sexually confused boys with a tendancy to skip school.

I understand that is was an extraordinarily had group to elicit responses from.  Ironically, this is the same group that self identifies as what David Brooks defined as the "educated class".

I'd been wondering who those people were.

161 Just give it up folks.  One of these days Michelle is going to cut her hand "gardening" revealing lizard skin.  And some Fox reporter will get too close to Barry and see gill-like things behind one of his ears.  V is here, bitches.  We're doomed. 

162 Waterhouse, The thing is that the Apollo program failed to prepare infrastructure, etc. for broader exploration and exploitation of space. It wasn't that the Apollo program couldn't do it, but it was never designed to do that. Government exploration - when used as a precursor and infrastructure developer - is worthwhile, because it doesn't operate under the restrictions of a business case which make long-lead time R&D unattractive. I fully agree that NASA should be doing the pathbreaking for the private sector. What I fear in this incarnation, is that we haven't really prepped the private sector to step in to this role, and that it will subsequently fall short. Given that the political constituency in Congress supporting private sector spaceflight will inevitably be smaller than the one supporting government spaceflight, it means that funding for private sector transportation will be more politically vulnerable. BRD

163 Except that it returns in three hundred years and tries to kill us all.

Sure, but at least it gives us a hot bald-headed chick in a shower robe to fool around with before we die.

164 160

I think the last, best discovery program we will ever see in our lives was Voyager 2.

Except that it returns in three hundred years and tries to kill us all.

Star Trek ref #2.

[Runs from room because it was Star Trek I]

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 15, 2010 04:26 PM (B+qrE)

Wasn't that Voyager 6?

165

(Anybody else used to just eat it straight as a kid?) Also good mixed with tea.

 

Mix it with Nestea mix and heat it up on a cold day (with water, of course).

 

I was too busy jugging straight Karo corn syrup as a kid to mainline Tang.

166 164

Great. Now I have a craving for Tang. Thanks a lot morons.

 

(Anybody else used to just eat it straight as a kid?) Also good mixed with tea.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 15, 2010 04:28 PM (RZ8pf)

PGiS, I absolutely refuse to believe that you are posting all this stuff in total innocence.

_{Anyway, the answers are "So do I", "Yes", and "Not so much."}

167

jugging straight Karo corn syrup

Wow, that's hard core! (light or dark?)

168

The Teleprompter Messiah is beginning to remind me of Arsenio Hall's talkshow career. Hall started out all mainstream and accessible to flyover America, giggly and smiling like the grill on a '58 Buick Roadmaster. Then, as the ratings started to tank and his audience drifted, he got all 'hoody and sullen, slouching behind the host desk scowling behind his shades, all bad lookin' n' shizzle.

If the Precedent walks on stage wearing an 'X' ball cap and black leather jeans scowling at the teleprompter look out for big trouble, the driveby posse's on its way to Alaska.  

169 Wasn't that Voyager 6?

That was V'GER, you carbon-based infestation.

170 Undead, I can truly say I have no idea what you are talking about in this instance. Is there a double meaning to Tang I don't know about?

171 A pissed off Gene Cernan is on with Neal Cavuto now. 

172

Wow, that's hard core! (light or dark?)

Both.  Together with sorghum.  Call it the Southern Diabetes Eight Ball.

173

PGiS, I absolutely refuse to believe that you are posting all this stuff in total innocence.

Ummm, I'm betting with you.

174

Our unmanned robotic missions (not just Voyagers) will stand as glories in the history of the human race. Galileo, Cassini, the Spirit probes on Mars, Magellan to Venus, and the two early Pioneer probes come immediately to mind. Whatever else America may be (or may become) we will always have that to our credit: we opened up the Solar System. The first man-made objects to leave our Sun's gravitational envelope carry the American flag on their sides. I take great pride in that.

I just wish we could carry the same spirit of can-do design and risk-taking to the human spaceflight part of the equation.

 

175 Obama wants to eliminate America's manned space program because then there won't be any way to stop his alien brain-slug masters.

The scary thing is, it almost makes sense. It explains the absolutely slavish adoration he gets from certain key supporters -- they've got brain-slug implants. It explains why he wants to nationalize health care -- the better to conceal the brain-slug menace and help them spread. It explains why he seems utterly unfamiliar with basic human emotions.

Forget about that birth certificate crap: we've got to start demanding to see his CAT scans!

176 176 Undead, I can truly say I have no idea what you are talking about in this instance. Is there a double meaning to Tang I don't know about?

God bless you.

177 *sigh* POON-Tang.

/pointing out the obvious.

178 A pissed off Gene Cernan is on with Neal Cavuto now. 

Posted by: Jane D'oh at April 15, 2010 04:34 PM (UOM4

Cernan was great.  And he put himself in with the Tea Partiers, twice.  I liked that little jab he mentioned to Neil about "95% of my colleagues agree".

179 TANG!

180 Tang + Valu-Rite Vodka = Hobo Screwdriver.

181

*sigh* POON-Tang.

/pointing out the obvious.

Phew! I was afraid it was some hip Wu-Tang Clan reference. I hate those guys.

182 95 Isn't the conservative mantra 'the private sector does everything a lot better than the govt'?
-----------
Yeah, but everyone knows it's the government that's best at doing the things that no one can figure out why they need to be done.

183

So, what are the odds those Americans will be ordering from a Martian Chinese delivery place?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 15, 2010 04:14 PM (B+qrE)

we already have a Mars Cheese Castle

184

Oh for heavenÂ’s sake, really?

 

Umm, well then in the immortal words of Emily Litella “nevermind”

185

I often hear people bring up the "Western settlers" model of space exploration: give people property rights on Mars, and then move aside for the land rush! Well, it's not happening.

First: The western settlers didn't have to take along their own air. (Or water, or dirt for farming.) And the gravitational well was the same between the origin and the destination. "Living off the land" isn't really feasible when you're traveling through space to an arid planet with very little atmosphere.

Second: the settlers died a lot. From cold, from hunger, from accident, from predations by Indians and animals, and from disease. Our tolerance for this kind of thing is notably lower now. The first Mars-settler ship that explodes or arrives with a cargo-hold full of dead people from radiation-sickness or some other malady would be the end of the program. We are a far more risk-averse people now than we were then. If space-travel and colonization is ever to take off, we're going to have to be more comfortable with people dying in space, because it's going to happen. (And quite frequently, at least early on.)

Third: the settlers had a lot of infrastructural help. The government established a lot of incentives to move people west. The Louisiana purchase, land-grants in open territories, and turning territories into States. In other words, settlers were never completely cut off from the world they came from. Settlers to another planet are going to have to be much more self-sufficient than the western settlers ever were to make it work.

These reasons (and many others) are why I believe that only the government has the resources and finances available to build out the infrastructure required to make "commercialization" of space-travel a reality. Either that, or some major revolution in technology that dramatically reduces the cost-to-orbit per kilogram equation to small fractions of what it is now.

 

186 I have to be honest. I think the whole space program is a waste of time and money. Kill it. but then just plug a hole in the budget with the money.

Posted by: Jeff at April 15, 2010 04:02 PM (Wvu39)

You do realize that without the space program we wouldn't have tang or velcro don't you?

and about a million other things

Posted by: robtr at April 15, 2010 04:05 PM (fwSHf)

Or not.  Velcro was invented in Switzerland in 1941.

Never has an organization had so little to do with so many technologies it claims to have birthed.  If you go down NASA's list of "spinoff" technologies and really research them you'll find that most were already developed for military or industrial use.  In the few cases where NASA took a technology and enhanced it they just accelerated work that was already ongoing.

It's PR.  Nothing more.

187

We don't need to go to the moon because we've already been?

 

The point of a mission to the moon is to reestablish our preeminence in space after floundering in low earth orbit for about thirty years.  It's to restore the prestige of the program and not allow it to be stagnant and ineffective until 2030, 2040, or whenever the time comes for a mars mission to be executed SIXTY YEARS after we last escaped low earth orbit. 

 

188

Just to sort of get this back on track (herding cats)...

I followed Voyager2 for a number of years, and watched (+recorded) as much as possible. Unless you had seen it, you have no idea how cool that was. Uranus, Neptune, the moons of those planets, which had never been seen in any detail by astronomers. And as the pictures came in, space Scientists trying to explain what the pictures were showing. And this was live.

It was kind of like being with Columbus. And it got better.

Not going to see anything like that again, in my opinion.

189

Uranus, Neptune, the moons of those planets, which had never been seen in any detail by astronomers. And as the pictures came in, space Scientists trying to explain what the pictures were showing. And this was live.

There's a great segment in Carl Sagan's Cosmos where they show scientists at JPL basically just freaking out as the Voyager Jupiter data started coming in. They were giddy, throwing ideas out right and left...man, it would have been great to be there. (They even mention the "Morabito incident" where a grad-school intern, Linda Morabito, found a volcanic eruption on Io after a bunch of senior eggheads totally missed it.)

 

190 A co-worker forwarded an e-mail from his niece, who works at Kennedy (or KSC, as she refers to it):

rom:@nasa.gov>
Date: April 15, 2010 3:02:16 PM EDT
To:
Subject: Interesting
 
Oddly enough, there are not allowing any KSC employees to attend the PresidentÂ’s address to KSC today, in the building two over from mine.  But you wouldnÂ’t know it by the way he is referring to the people in the audienceÂ…

191

I’m not going to come down on one side or the other on the NASA debate, but what I am concerned about is that we are shutting down the channels of innovation in this country. We remain a world leader as long as we can innovate. The space program is a place where a lot of innovation has taken place—things that have moved us forward in many areas of life.

 

It is great that there is private enterprise, but if you look at what the government is doing with regard to private enterprise, I am concerned that companies will cancel projects or choose to go to other countries instead.

192 If you want use a colonization paradigm, the early exploration of the New World is a better model. Chinese and Vikings were here long before Columbus, but they didn't stick around or really lean into large-scale expeditions or colonies. We speak the language of the people who made colonization a project, not the language of the people who got here first. Or second. Or third. Or fourth.

193 The problem with all these arguments for maintaining the civilian space program is that they neglect one crucial piece of evidence.

We simply can not afford it right now.

194 174

If the Precedent walks on stage wearing an 'X' ball cap and black leather jeans scowling at the teleprompter look out for big trouble, the driveby posse's on its way to Alaska.  

************

I've always assumed he would fast-forward directly to the Palpatine Emperor hoodie outfit.

195

200 The problem with all these arguments for maintaining the civilian space program is that they neglect one crucial piece of evidence.

We simply can not afford it right now.

***********************

Vic, how 'bout telling us why,  if we can't afford anything right now,  billion in govt. spending is going on every single day.

What social program THAT and not Science/Defense THIS?

196 The real reason Obama wants to cut the space program is that the space program scientists refuse to rewrite all of their books to say the world, sun, and the universe revolve around Barry.  He can't stand deniers.

197 Vic, I don't think that spending six-tenths of one percent of the discretionary budget is going to sink the economy. To put it another way, the HCR bill could have bought us something on the order of 8 complete Apollo programs from start to finish.

198 I think Barack will skip the X-cap and go straight to the African robes.

199

One thing I've always wondered about. How come NASA has never gotten into pulse rockets? Didn't that work well in WWII? Well, at least for the Nazi's.

Know anything about that, Monty?

200 Posted by: Barack H. Fuck You I Won Obama at April 15, 2010 03:21 PM (LuqCE) Cut it out. You made me laugh out loud at work.

201

Vic, how 'bout telling us why,  if we can't afford anything right now,  billion in govt. spending is going on every single day.

What social program THAT and not Science/Defense THIS?

We can't afford any of those programs right now either.

We need to cut EVERYTHING except absolute essentials. That includes that BS obamacare mess and any money that is in porkulous and tarp that hasn't been spent yet.

202 I don't think that spending six-tenths of one percent of the discretionary budget is going to sink the economy.

The economy is already sunk.

203 If you want use a colonization paradigm, the early exploration of the New World is a better model. Chinese and Vikings were here long before Columbus, but they didn't stick around or really lean into large-scale expeditions or colonies.

It's a terrible paradigm for the reasons Monty listed.  I would add this:

Colonization of the new world had a clear business model.  People from Europe went to the Americas and engaged in trade, farming, and extraction.  Raw materials were sent to the home country in return for finished goods.

This model is unlikely to be realistic for the moon or Mars.  The moon doesn't have anything we want we can't obtain more cheaply on the earth.  There are no beaver pelts, no plantations of sugar cane, tobacco, and cocoa.  There are no natives to trade with.  There's no hope the colony will be self-sufficient without a thousand years of terraforming, and maybe not even then.

In terms of bulk raw materials you could set up mines on the ocean floor more cheaply than putting them on the moon, so we still have 3/4 of the earth's surface to exhaust before it makes sense to get them from the moon, and even after that it will be cheaper to recycle than to go off-world.

Land in the New World was high quality land.  Not only did it come with air, but it also had fertile soil and a good climate.  If you wanted to "settle" somewhere because land is too expensive where you are now, Antarctica is far more hospitable than anywhere off planet.  Or one of the thousands of uninhabited islands.   You could even build floating cities that would be cheaper and much nicer.

204

Gonna have to disagree with you Vic. R&D is important. You never know what you will find nor how important it can become later.

Hell, Colombus had to beg for funds. And even before he sailed, he was wrong on 2 counts, those being how large the Atlantic was, and that he was going to India.

Welll, we wouldn't be here if he hadn't made that voyage.

NASA isn't going to break the budget. It's minor. But who knows what we may discover?

I'm thinking it is well worth the money. 

205

He's spending BILLLLLIONS of our childrens dollars on HIGH SPEED CHOO CHOO'S in FLORIDA.

He is a useless pandering prick.

206

Oh, I just want to say. Exploring via NASA is great. I'm not very sure of landing Astronauts on Mars.

And the Shuttle?

Waste of money.

207 Ace's liver, You cite the after-the-fact business models for colonization of the New World. The first European business case (after the Vikings) was a sea route to Asia. Thereafter, we ended up with the Spanish model based on finding El Dorado and converting natives to Christianity. The French model was a step closer, with trapping and trading of furs. The next was the English model of sending people off into the boonies to get them out of London's hair. The development of a pure raw materials model didn't arrive until later in the game. This was rapidly augmented by more complex models, such as the triangle trade in rum, sugar, and slaves. The trick to any expansion, be it to Antartica or the Moon, is how to close the business case. That's based on two things - costs and profits. There are some things that, arguably, might be manufactured in space that could provide sufficient profit to help close half the business case - SpaceHab's work on protein crystallization is a good example. Past that, there are a host of other things that could be manufactured in space, which could provide a reasonable market for in-space activity. The second is cost. Right now, pretty much all space systems are way, way too expensive to make human presence viable. However, do take note that the first business cases for space are already well established - communications, and to a lesser extent, GPS and Earth observation. So, we've figured out a few of the elements, and have more to go. But it would be silly to quit trying out how to expand simply because we haven't expanded there yet. It's a great, great big universe with a lot of stuff to do, places to see, and things to explore. BRD

208 206 One thing I've always wondered about. How come NASA has never gotten into pulse rockets? Didn't that work well in WWII?
-------------
Pulse rockets in WWII? Haven't heard of them. Pulse jets on the other hand, are finicky and noisy and, being jets, need to breathe air.

209

Bambi: Quite a treat being on Air Force One, eh?

Buzz: I was on Apollo fucking 11, asshole.

Bambi: Right, but without me.

210 Shep Smith...Fox's resident teabagee...

211

^{But as he once put it, "Consistency is the knob-gobblin' of little minds"}

^{Posted by: effinayright at April 15, 2010 04:18 PM (3sB5l)}

Only, ONLY on Ace of Spades could you read something like this.

212 A friend's husband works in Houston for Boeing on space-related stuff (he's an engineer, I don't know more than that).  Thanks to the cancellation of the Constellation program, he's staring a potential minimum 12-month layoff in the face, even if they do pick him back up for some more of their bullshit greenie globullshit warming space missions.  As a result, a lot of the contract guys at places like Boeing and LockMart are going to move on to other things and won't be available when/if the government does decide to get NASA moving again.

Honestly, I don't want government spending my tax dollars for make-work, even if it's for something as cool as the space program?  But judging from what we've gotten out of NASA over the past forty-five years, dropping money into them is a damnsight better investment than all the other places Zero wants to put it.

213 Just dump the Tang straight into vodka like we did back in the late 80's when I was studying Russian in (then) Leningrad.  We were warned never to drink the water so we did the next best thing. 

Good times, good times!!!  (I think so, anyway....can't remember them all.....)

214 O's problem with a moonshot is there's no indiginous peeps upon whom to bestow scads of welfare...

215

Posted by: Snarkatron at April 15, 2010 05:41 PM (3K4hn)

You are correct, sir. Pulse Jet Engines for the V-1, but not for the V-2.

Chalk it up to reading too much, and getting things confused.

216

Gonna have to disagree with you Vic. R&D is important. You never know what you will find nor how important it can become later.

So why not take all that grant money going to colleges to study frog sex and other shit and have them do real science R&D? (Except we need to kill that also)

Hell, Colombus had to beg for funds. And even before he sailed, he was wrong on 2 counts, those being how large the Atlantic was, and that he was going to India.

Yeah, how'd that work out for Spain?  And they got the money from the Queen's jewels. I'm fine with spending money on NASA if they get the money from selling the First Lady's jewels, or in the current case her designer wardrobe.

Welll, we wouldn't be here if he hadn't made that voyage.

Probably not true.

NASA isn't going to break the budget. It's minor. But who knows what we may discover?

As I said, the budget is already broken. We can't afford toilet paper right now. As for what we "might discover" if it was worthwhile private industry would be doing it.

I'm thinking it is well worth the money. 

I'm thinking regardless of its worth, real and intrinsic, we don't have the money for it. We are fking broke. I would consider a 500 hp Mustang GT convertible worth the money and would love to have one, but I don't have the money for it.

217 I did mark all the previous stuff with italics but I guess Minx ate it.

218 There are some things that, arguably, might be manufactured in space that could provide sufficient profit to help close half the business case - SpaceHab's work on protein crystallization is a good example. Past that, there are a host of other things that could be manufactured in space, which could provide a reasonable market for in-space activity.

But space-based manufacturing doesn't require humans in space, and it doesn't require anything past LEO.  Also, I have yet to run across anything that 1) is cheaper to manufacture in space (or can only be manufactured in space) and 2) can't be substituted with something far cheaper made on earth.

Sure, there are things that can be done in space, but what can be done more sensibly in space?

219

Sorry if it has already been posted, but just an interesting FYI. 

Homer Hickman is who Jake "Brokeback Mountain" Gyllenhall played in the movie October Sky about his early life in building rockets in high school.

220 DAMN NUKKAH, WE HIGH!

221
164 ParanoidGirlInSeattle

(Anybody else used to just eat it straight as a kid?)

Yes, but I had to cut it with sugar. And I promise there's no double meaning in that... it's just that it used to set my teeth on edge.

222 The first European business case (after the Vikings) was a sea route to Asia. Thereafter, we ended up with the Spanish model based on finding El Dorado and converting natives to Christianity. The French model was a step closer, with trapping and trading of furs. The next was the English model of sending people off into the boonies to get them out of London's hair. The development of a pure raw materials model didn't arrive until later in the game. This was rapidly augmented by more complex models, such as the triangle trade in rum, sugar, and slaves.

But my point was none of these models apply to the moon or Mars.  You've really made my point here by listing all the things Europeans could do profitably in the Americas at different development stages.  There just isn't anything like that off-planet.

From what I can see the only thing that makes sense to do that we haven't already done is solar power satellites.  You could make the case for a human presence in orbit to service those sats if you can get the cost to LEO down quite a bit lower than it is now and your solar power satellite program is massive enough to require quite a bit of ongoing maintenance.

Of course once you're in LEO you're halfway to anywhere.  But it's still not clear to me it will ever make sense to do the other half.

223 Only, ONLY on Ace of Spades could you read something like this.

Amen.

224

I did mark all the previous stuff with italics but I guess Minx ate it.

heh.

Couple of things. You asked...Yeah, how'd that work out for Spain? 

Well they got enough gold out of the New World to drive the price of it down in Europe. I'm pretty sure they gained more wealth in that time then they ever had before or since.

"Welll, we wouldn't be here if he hadn't made that voyage"

Probably not true.

Well, I'd be in Ireland now if he hadn't made that voyage. And you would be where?

225 I've already listed some sorts of things that can already be done more sensibly in space: communications, GPS, and Earth observation. As far as things that go beyond trade in bits, and move towards commerce based on moving stuff, metallic foams, large protein crystals, Ga-As conductors, ultra-precise latex spheres, and exotic alloys are some of the things that come immediately to mind. A bit further down the pike, people have all manner of ideas - but I don't think those are anywhere near ready for prime-time. As far as robotics versus human, it depends on the amount of capability you need on deck. Basically, as capability grows towards human levels, complexity, and therefore cost, begin to approach (and ultimately exceed) the cost of sending a human to go there. Assuming, of course, you're not talking about things like deeply inhospitable environments, like the surface of Venus or such. But saying that we shouldn't do something at all because we don't know how to do it today is pretty antithetical to any kind of notion of technological progress. The fact that space is such a pain and has realized so very little of it's potential could suggest that we need to work harder on it, rather than less. My feeling is that governments have traditionally been fairly effective at things like large infrastructure projects and long-lead time research. This is no different than any other case for intervention for infrastructure and long-lead time R&D.

226 News alert, Senate has just passed another extension to the unemployment benefits.

GOP offered amendments to decrease spending in other areas to offset it. 

Dems voted it down of course. They want tax increases.

227

Aldrin even included having some non-US organization do something, as part of his plan.  Hey, Buzz, here's a newsflash for ya! They don't have to do what we want! (Ironically, it his side - the left - that is constantly criticizing the US for using its influence). These guys live in such a fantasy world!  All while a $10B investment is flushed down the toilet.

It's amazing how people as smart as astronauts would buy this BS for even a nanosecond, but people - even smart ones - find ways to believe what they want to believe, don't they?

Posted by: Optimizer at April 15, 2010 03:24 PM (odEHq)

 

I'm not Schadenfreudenly happy that Buzz got voted off Dancing with the Stars.

228 Sorry ace's liver - didn't see the second post. My point is that we had to dick around with the New World for a couple hundred years before we ever got to a particularly strong economic basis for colonization. Your argument would fit in best in Queen Isabella's court, saying that Columbus was a waste of money, because we can already get to Asia over land. Never mind any of the other things we learned to make the Atlantic crossing profitable over the course of ensuing centuries. You note that there's not a lot out there that makes economic sense, and therefore we shouldn't look at all. I make the point that there's not a lot out there that makes economic sense, and therefore we should find out what is profitable.

229 Well, I'd be in Ireland now if he hadn't made that voyage. And you would be where?

Someone else would have done if not for CC. Actually, we would have been better off if it had not been Spain.

230 Vic, The Constellation program costs the average American something on the order of 4.1 cents per day. If you want to tackle the budget, there are a lot of other jucier, lower-hanging targets.

231

Shep just said, "I don't see where the detractors of this President get off".

 

Will somebody please tell Shep where to get off, namely get off FNC and go home where he belongs to MSNBC.  He and Ed Schultz could do a little point/counterpoint show, lefty vs. crazy lefty.

232 Obama gutting NASA is no surprise -

Next to the socialist cry of "guns or butter" every time Federal spending goes up because of a war is,

"Why are we spending that kind of money for a guy to hit golf balls on the moon when we have poor folk here on Earth."

233

Ace's liver is full of it.  I've been hearing that crap about velcro, Tang, ballpoint pens etc from the usual suspects for over 40 years now.  It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.  The simple fact is that the country has made back far more money than it ever spent on the space program, in the form of countless new products and processes, most of which Joe Paulbot never knew was derived from space research.

And while Monty makes some good points, he's off base on others.  I've watched this whole thing unfold for well nigh 50 years, and it's not overall NASA's fault they are in the shape they are in, whether it's with the shuttle, lack of space infrastructure or anything else.  Actually, the shuttle, ISS (which is "Space Station Freedom", just late and renamed) are all about "infrastructure".  NASA has been trying to build it with almost no money for the past 40 years.  And yes, it's the infrastructure needed to go back to the Moon, Mars, asteroids.  But thanks to the Congress, and mostly a Commiecrat-controlled Congress at that, they have tried to do all that with almost no money.  If you go back to the end of the Apollo era, NASA has had almost no increase in it's annual budget in all the years, hell, decades, since. 

But despite that, they still managed to build and fly the space shuttle, the space station, and a boatload of robotic probes, all of which have, overall been very successful.  Yeah, we've lost two shuttles and their crews.  Well, guess what?  NASA said back before it ever first flew that there was a 1 in 50 chance of a in-flight failure that would result in loss of life.  And guess what?  The last flights of the Challenger and Columbia were BOTH right around that 1 in 50 mark.  And don't think the crews didn't then or now know the risks.  I could write a book about why the shuttle ended up the way it is (short version; Democrat politicians fucked it up during the design phase; what we got is not what NASA originally had in mind).  But I don't care how well engineered something is, a car, boat, airplane or spaceship, from time to time mistakes will be made and people will die.  Deal with it.  The astronauts do, every damn day.

This is a sad day, because yet again Obambi is trashing yet something else that was good about this country.  In this case, the space program.  He's a Marxist; to one of those anything that showcases American exceptionalism and ability is something to be put down and destroyed if possible.  The only thing that MIGHT save the space program from what Armstrong and his fellows called mediocrity would be that most people still support our exploration of space and don't want to see it trashed.  (And no, boys and girls, it would not cost that must to get at least most of this stuff done.)  We shall see...

234 Your argument would fit in best in Queen Isabella's court, saying that Columbus was a waste of money, because we can already get to Asia over land. Never mind any of the other things we learned to make the Atlantic crossing profitable over the course of ensuing centuries.

That's where I think we're not seeing eye-to-eye.  The argument Columbus made to the court in Portugal was that if he was successful in traveling to Asia by going west they'd all get fabulously wealthy off the sea trade with China and India.  There was a clear potential payoff.  In fact every early expedition to the New World was based on the same logic - "Here's what we believe.  If what we believe is correct and our venture is successful we'll get fabulously wealthy."

Of course sometimes their information was faulty.  There was no fountain of youth.  No El Dorado.  Sometimes the expedition was wiped out by natives or disease or hunger.  But just because things didn't work out doesn't mean they didn't have a plan.  Every step of the way.

Even later settlers who were just fleeing persecution had a plan for eventual self sufficiency.  Mars and the moon are just too inhospitable for that to happen.  On the moon you don't even have enough gravity for colonization to work.

If Columbus had arrived in the New World and it was a lifeless rock with no air, colonization would never have been attempted.

235 Ace's liver is full of it.  I've been hearing that crap about velcro, Tang, ballpoint pens etc from the usual suspects for over 40 years now.  It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.  The simple fact is that the country has made back far more money than it ever spent on the space program, in the form of countless new products and processes, most of which Joe Paulbot never knew was derived from space research.

This is so far wrong it isn't even funny, and it won't take more than about fifteen minutes of Googling to realize it.  We will never, ever get back the money we've spent on the space program.  Some of the unmanned stuff was worth doing anyway because information has value in its own rite, but the manned space program is and always was a pork barrel vanity project.

236

Here's to you, all you Space Coast Idoits that voted for ObiWon kin Nawful. You deserve evertything you are getting. You didn't believe his first Campaign budget where he said he would gut the Space program? It was only after he had the nomination and needed Florida's electoral votes that he suddenly "changed" his budget. What fools!. And now that he's got the juice, he's shutting you down for good. It's bad enough you voted against your job, but you also voted against the one thing you may actually care about, U.S. manned spaceflight. You're getting what you deserve, but so am I, except I didn't vote for the shapeshifter-in-chief, you should have went with the former Naval Aviator.

Obama promises all have an expiration:

I Love you

The space check is in the mail

I won't cancel your space  program

 

All that education doesn't count for much, if you don't use your head.

 

Losers, now go tatoo a big L on your forehead.

237 I sure do like having a pussy for a peznit

238 Eventually humanity will need to spread,first to the solar system than to the stars.If we just stay on earthwe will just atrophy into a socialist welfare planet...opps I think we already have.

239 This is so far wrong it isn't even funny, and it won't take more than about fifteen minutes of Googling to realize it.  We will never, ever get back the money we've spent on the space program.  Some of the unmanned stuff was worth doing anyway because information has value in its own rite, but the manned space program is and always was a pork barrel vanity project.

Posted by: Ace's liver at April 15, 2010 07:22 PM (XIXhw)

 

As I said before, this was bullshit the first time I heard it 40+ years ago and it's bullshit now.  Whatever.  Hope you're happy, as it's all most likely going to come to an end soon anyway, thanks to your boy Preznit Toonces.

 

240

Manned vs unmanned. I'll go with the later. Unless there is some real reason to land a man on Mars, I really don't see the point.

Nice, but why? Just because we can do it?

The only reason I could see to land a man on Mars is because there is some sort of evidence that intelligent life was there in the past, and we need some digging.

As far as I know, no such evidence exists.

Which would be great, but I'm betting that's just a dream, same as the Fountain of Youth.

241 WRT -

- Private space exploration - watermelons killed that about ten years ago.

- Antartica - ALL nations with a presence are there only to keep their foot in the door - they take their foot out they lose any interest. Space program is the same way.

- Spain/Portugal had a reason to risk trans-Atlantic shipping - the Fuslims were pissed about Andalusia and were cutting off their trade with the Far East.

None of the above have anything to do with the fact that engaging in matters outside the US is the explicit business of the Federal Government - withdrawing from an active manned space program, however consequential, is no different that withdrawing all manned foreign missions.

242 As I said before, this was bullshit the first time I heard it 40+ years ago and it's bullshit now.  Whatever.  Hope you're happy, as it's all most likely going to come to an end soon anyway, thanks to your boy Preznit Toonces.

Yeah, as you said with nothing to back it up.  And anybody who reads comments on this site knows I'm not a big fan of the president.

If you actually did some research you'd realize just how much bullshit hype surrounds the manned space program.  In absolute terms it's not a hell of a lot of money, so I guess it doesn't matter much.  But if we're going to spend it I'd rather see it spent on either useful science, like probes, or something economically useful like solar power.

243
The imbecile mispronounced "Orion" again.

Check out the video at the Whitehouse.gov website:

http://tinyurl.com/y5gmnhr

At the 12:10 he slips it up and quickly catches himself.

God, what a dolt.

244 Buzz Aldrin gave a speech at a conference I was at a couple months ago. 

He was decrying the decline in space exploration similarly to Armstrong, although he didn't specifically mention Obama.  I seriously doubt that he likes the president's vision for NASA.

Dan, I heard Aldrin speak with the rest of the Apollo 11 crew this past July.  He called Obama out.  By name.  So did Collins.  Armstrong remained more neutral, which, again, is why his participation in the speaking out-ed-ness is so extraordinary.  He never, EVER gets involved with anything political.

245 I am pretty sure the only near-term (50+ years) business case for manned commercial activity in space will be providing support to a manned military activity in space.

246 I am pretty sure the only near-term (50+ years) business case for manned commercial activity in space will be providing support to a manned military activity in space.

Oh?  What do you envision people doing in space that we couldn't do more cheaply with machines?

What you're saying could be true.  Could be.  If we could get people into orbit for about a tenth of the price we're paying today.  IMO that could be done with SSTO, but I haven't seen a serious SSTO project since DC-X.  I guess we could see a private company (like Carmack's) do it, but so far things don't look very promising.

It'll never happen with the shuttle or shuttle-derived anything.

247 Ac's liver, You've kind of inadvertently made my point. You suggest that if prices per person to orbit were an order of magnitude lower then there might be a business case. Indeed! Let's work on that! You remark about the Columbus business case - there are people arguing all manner of business cases now: space solar power, protein crystal growth, etc. etc. None of these folks has found their particular Queen Isabella. There are people who do claim to have a clear path to profit. I don't know how many of them hold water. To suggest that even the faulty business cases of 500 years ago are somehow better than the questionable space-business cases today simply demonstrates a hindsight bias. Your arguments are most like those in Queen Isabella's court who suggested that Columbus was a loon and that it was insanity for the Queen to spend her money on such foolishness as a theoretical, as yet unproven, ocean route to Asia. BRD

248 You've kind of inadvertently made my point. You suggest that if prices per person to orbit were an order of magnitude lower then there might be a business case. Indeed! Let's work on that!

Oh, I'm all for a program for which the goal is an order-of-magnitude $/kg reduction to LEO. But I would point out there's no reason to make it a manned program initially. If the program is successful, then either man-rate it or have a man-rated successor.

But what's on the board now, Constellation, not only isn't going to change the cost equation, it's not even on the path to changing the cost equation.

You can find two excellent essays on the subject from Jerry Pournelle here and here.

249 Whoa. Whoa. WHOA. Really cheap shot at my fellow celibate Lady Gaga in the quote. Uncool, guy. Uncool.

250

d) who cares what launcher NASA uses to get an astronaut into space? Getting astronauts to the ISS is hardly a national security issue. At best it's a point of national pride, which is a stupid reason to blow 950 million per launch on a government jobs program.

It's not a stupid reason...blowing $950 million IS the reason. We Americans bore $950 million dollar holes in the sky.

Yay.

251 Ace's liver - perhaps we are disagreeing about our agreement. My major objection is the idea of throwing out the baby, the bathwater, and the tub. I think that - down the line - there is a time and place for people. Robots alone are not the answer any more than people alone are. This is a tricky, tricky problem - we need to gnaw on it slowly and surely and get at this one step at a time.

252 I love all these debates with experts like Ace's Liver whose space exploration expertise is jerking off with 70s Star Wars figurines.

253 If the US government is serious about a governmental presence in space, they need to build Orion. No, not the political crapheap those bureaucratic cowards came up with recently, where they stole the name to try to make it look better than it is. The REAL Orion. The one designed in the 1960s by Freeman Dyson. The one powered by nuclear bombs. If they can't do that, they should shut up, stop taking tax money, and get out of the way while private enterprise tries its thing.

254 I look forward to the day when Shephard Smith is no longer "in the house."

255 @Alana

Me too.

@Rollory

Private enterprises such as Blue Origin, SpaceEx, etc., have contracted with NASA to do materials and propellant testing. Go back to sleep, dork.

256 I love all these debates with experts like Ace's Liver whose space exploration expertise is jerking off with 70s Star Wars figurines.

I think it's great how we've integrated the special needs people into society.

257 For some things I would like to see private firms take over in terms of space. Why should the govt be paying NASA to launch the space shuttle to put satellites for private firms in orbit. Let them launch their own stuff in space or pay a corporation to do it, this free's up NASA to use that money for science.

Right now there is even a private firm that is planning on launching a private space station for space tourism. They already have two unmanned test modules in orbit already to see if this thing works.

258 "the goal is an order-of-magnitude $/kg reduction to LEO." -- the easiest way to do that is not man-rate the vehicles and do it in small shots. I worked on Clementine back in the 90's - and we could get $/kg number down a pretty reasonable number - for small packages.

259

In my 70 years I have seen some real snake oil sellers !!!  B.O. is the best . All he does is fly around the country putting more waste in the air then any other person in the world , not to say all the BS that flow's from his mouth when he is on the ground . 9 months ago he was cutting cost and now he is spending some to make himself look good . The man has a coat of many colors if you get my drift .

I can't wait for the year 2012 to get rid of this BS that is killing this wonderful country .I have read most of the comments and wonder to myself where in the hell were all of you in Nov. 08 . All I can say is I hope you are happy with the CHANGE .  LETS MAKE A CHANGE IN 2012

I don't give a shit about 6 Billion to help the space projects ,it will help save some familys , Didn't B.O. give 22 billion to buy govt. motors . Oh I could go on and on . But I have to get back to work to make sure that some lazy ass can buy some smoke's and beer so he can get layed tonite and make another dependent for us to take careoff .

260 President Bush's original Vision for Space Exploration was a well intended and thoughtful approach to a specific direction for America's space faring goals.  Unfortunately, he appointed Mike Griffin as the administrator who set about the task of totally screwing it all up.  Because of this we have lost over a half of a decade blowing untold billions of dollars of tax payer money.  We have actually diminished NASA's primary goal of innovating new technologies at the alter of the sacrificial Constellation budget. 

The fact of the matter is that with this new direction being given to NASA we actually stand a chance to see a return to the Moon, Mars, and beyond; faster, then the projected and likely time that anything resembling Constellation could conceivably accomplish.  The current NASA administrator, Charles Bolden, says that he wants to see a space industry that has several hundred to several thousand people in space before the end of this decade.  To me, I find the prospect of a significant population of space adventurers floating around in orbit or visiting other planets much more exciting than the status quo.  The status quo begin namely, blowing billions of dollars developing a launch vehicle that will only fly a couple of times a year and put a handful of NASA astronauts on the surface of one ball of rock.

What precisely is this fascination with what a small group of hand picked NASA astronauts from 40 years thinks?  They may be quite accomplished as pilots or systems management and control specialists but policy direction and business economics is not something I'd consider their strong suite.  The fact of the matter is the reason why Constellation was cancelled is because everyone knew that it was financially unsustainable within the previous or even currently expanded NASA budget.  For the costs of one Orion crew capsule we could fund the startup and development of 5 SpaceX type space-based corporations.  The launch of just one Ares-Ix technology demonstrator we could have paid for the full development and construction costs of all the SpaceX Falcon I vehicles and launches to date.  The real devil is in the details when it comes to explaining why NASA is so expensive.  Largely, the costs of launching material into space is directly linked to the standing army of personnel needed to construct and maintain the launch pad and the space vehicle assembly and launch.  NASA is just an excuse for Congress critters to appropriate tax payer money to pump up their districts pork and job creation claims.  What we actually accomplish or what specifically we do in space could be furthest from the mind of most politicians and from what it appears the majority of people in this country.  I guess people just like to see big rockets make awesome sound and fire and that is about it.  If that is the case I say we create a national fireworks agency that shoots big bottle rockets off once a month.

261

Obama At Kennedy Space Center Talking Space Policy

 

Who is better qualified than that space cadet?

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