1 Blah. Keep it short, faggot.

2 "Blah. Keep it short, faggot."

Speaking of short faggots, what does Richard Reich think of this health care fiasco?  Stand up, Richard!

3 couldn't we talk about Beck's CPAC speech?

4 what are the most heavily regulated industries in this country? drug companies and financial... and where are the problems? yeah, more regulation will really help haha bite me

I liked the cpac speech, but I've had a bladderload mor beer since then and my cursor has disappeared, just the text one, not the mouse one

5 The Republicans need to bring lots of statistics and numbers and maybe some scientific terms to the meeting.   Obama is incompetent with all of those categories. Maybe he will make a fool of himself.

The idea of this mathematical illiterate making pronouncements about anything to do with rates, profits, or any other number is just frightening to me,  because he doesn't have the foggiest understanding of anything he's ranting about.

6 Right, so health insurance companies are the villain again. Next up, Republicans. Followed by polar bears. I mean, there's too many of them now, right?

7 This is the Obama administration death spiral.  This guy knows only one trick, and people are not buying it any more.

8

The other week, men and women across America opened up their mailboxes to find a letter from Obama & Democrats. The news inside was jaw-dropping. Obama & Dems were alerting millions of people & small business owners who make over $250,000 that it would be raising their taxes in order to pay for the huge spending spree of the last year. 

A follow-up letter will be sent to ALL Americans from  Obama's newly formed Debt Commission messengers Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson announcing a jaw-dropping tax hike for ALL.

9

Yep.  11 hours without a post, and you drop this bomb right after the ONT. LOL!

Incidentally, that's some great analysis coupled with some great rhetoric.  From you, not President Not Bush.

10 The government mandates coverage, then slams the insurers for charging for it.

Someone might think that it's a plan to force the insurers out of business or something!

11

It's all free under Marxist rule.  Especially Pumpernickel and misery.

Question: During the COLD WAR, where did Russians go for VACATION?

ANSWER:  They didn't.

12 this is what happens when you have a president and an administration that have no clue about how the business world works.


worse, they're antagonistic to it

13 Obama can't argue using facts, reason and intelligence, because there aren't any liberal positions which use those. I expect him to distort facts and use strawmen whenever he can.  In fact, I'd be shocked if he had a position which he arrived at through reason and logic.

14 Slow. Learner.

15

These LIBTARD imbeciles, believe that an inusrance company can exist if it has to accept patients with pre-existing conditions.

Why should I buy insurance at all if an insurance company has to cover me anyway. 
Try it with your car insurance.  Don't buy it until your car needs fixed.

16 Good.

The one worry for us defeating health care was that the Democrats would ease up and by election day the voters would forget what the left tried to do and how much they hated it.  This give us the best of both world--we defeat it and have them reminding people that they wanted to do this as much as possible.  That's it, Barry, keep going.  This is your duty.  This is your mission in life.  In fact, don't let the 2010 elections stop you--keep harping on this afterwards.

Don't get angry about this, cheer it on.  This is fantastic.

17 Did you hear they took the gold medal away from skier Vonn?

18 I'm looking at this pretty cool car that's been wrecked. I'm thinking pre existing condition.

19 17 They decided that Obama went down hill faster.

20

But Kansas it you buy a policy and pay $1000 for insurance and the car needs $2000 in repairs, the Insurance Company will not have the funds to pay.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

21 >>The failed Obama economic policies brought us here.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

22 So government causes the problems, and then says that they are the only ones that can fix it. This says it all.

23 Republicans must resist this populist claim.

They ain't gonna do diddley.
BECAUSE THEY'RE REPUBLICANS
Don't pin ANY hopes on these career politicians

24
18 Hey. It's been pre-disastered!

25 As Obamacare edges closer to reality, I want to see the insurance companies post an investor notice of effects per SOX .

26 >>Don't pin ANY hopes on these career politicians

That's right, brother.  I'll do the hope-pinning around here.  When I'm done pinning hope on everybody, y'all will all be pining for fjords.

27 Socialism is only desireable to the extent that you can exempt yourself from its costs.  If the average American can't figure this out, having seen the payoffs necessary to convince Barry's own party members to vote for this ghastly mess (not to mention his union buds), then we're going to get what we deserve.

California's mandatory COBRA extensions and rate caps drove costs up.  How pathetic that Barry will probably get away with blaming an industry for reacting rationally to the type of regulation that Barry will in fact propose (impose?).

28 The point for me is that Obama is mentioning them BY NAME.

Has this happened this often before, that a president mentions so many individual companies by name for demonization?

Did even Clinton do this sort of thing?  Usually a president will say "a company recently...." The media would uncover the name of the company but it wouldn't come from the president's lips.

Is there nobody in the White House to tell the Community Organizer's teleprompter that this might be a bridge too far?

29 Frustrated Homeowner Bulldozes $350k Home Ahead of Foreclosure

30

How does goverment taking over health care reduce costs.

How does adding millions of patients reduce costs?

Obama is a fucking idiot. And America elected him.

31 now is definitely the time to go long on leveraged helthcare stocks. It is probably the only way to be able to pay for the rate hikes

32 Obama and his entire team are immature buffoons.

33 @29 I believe that is the way things are done in Chicago. Just like the "stimulus" which in reality was nothing more than a Chicago-style slush fund. This administration doesn't know how to operate any differently, to expect more of them would be like expecting a flounder to fly.

34 Obama plan:

1. Kill Millions of Jobs
2 Make Private Health InsuranceUnaffordable
3. Put Uninsured/Unemployed on Government Plan
4 Sector Nationalization Complete!

35 Shibumi that is the entire game plan.

36 Do you like replica designer handbags? If you like, you can search these keywords West Offer handbags,Wholesale Replica handbags,Wholesale Designer handbags,West handbags,Cheap Wholesale Replica handbags at Google you can find many wholesalers, and before purchasing, of course you need to read some replica handbags wholesale reviews.Do you know search these keywords Cheap Louis Vuitton Wholesale,Cheap Burberry Handbags Wholesale,ED Hardy Handbags Wholesale,Cheap Balenciaga Handbags Wholesale,Wholesale Chloe Handbags,Cheap Dolce&Gabbana Wholesale,Cheap D&G Handbags Wholesale,Wholesale D&B Handbags,Wholesale Dior Handbags,Wholesale UGG Handbags,Cheap Wholesale Purses,Marc Jacobs wallet,Wholesale clothes,Cheap Wholesale shirts,Cheap Wholesale clothes at Google and Yahoo you can find out many replica handbags wholesalers? Blah. Keep it short, faggot.

37 This administration doesn't know how to operate any differently, to expect more of them would be like expecting a flounder to fly.

Low blow, pal.

38 AmishDude @29,

I've been wondering the same thing. Everything seems to be personal with Barry and there is a lot of calling out people by name.

39

Rupaul has taken over CPAC.

He uses his shining moment to criticize Woodrow Wilson, despite the fact that Wilson wasn't jewish.

40 newser - that looks like a lot of house for 350K

41 It's intimidatio DSkinner.  Obama is trying to THUG people into line.

42 Posted by: gus at February 20, 2010 10:50 PM

Oh, I think there's more to the plan.

Sort of like this:

1. Kill Millions of Jobs
2 Put Everyone on Public Assistance
3. Nationalize all Industries
4 Conversion to Communism Complete
5. Long live the Proletariat!

Something like this at least. I don't know, I suppose I should re-read the info on Cloward Piven

43
And don't forget that computer modeling predicts that riding in a Toyota exposes you to more radiation than was seen at Nagasaki.
So you better check out the new Camaro if you value your life.

44 @38 My apologies. Of course flounder, like pigs, fly just fine provided that you throw them hard enough.

45 @30 - What an immature loser.  "If I can't have it no one can..."

46

Cloward-Piven, meet Saul Alinsky.

47 looked

48 It's been said before but almost all insurance companies pay out more in claims and expenses than they collect in premiums. They make their money by investing the premium money.

49 47

Cloward-Piven, meet Saul Alinsky.

I think Barack Obama introduced them a while ago....

50

He owns.
College loans.
Auto Companies,

Banks,

Insurance Companies.

The BIG ONE is GOVERNMENT CONTROL of health insurance.
This is what this MARXIST BASTARD LIVES FOR.

51 shibumi -- the problem is that they forgot step 2a - disarm the bourgeois and kulak

52

The brazen dishonesty of this president is a bit concerning to say the least.
A newly discovered video shows Obama lying to the American people about his relationship with ACORN:

 

53

Who the fuck ever  said that AMERICA had to sit and

hold Obama's hand while he "grew into the Presidency?"

 

54

They're fucking amatures.  They have morons like Reid and Pelosi who are way to fucking stupid to know they are being used as useful idiots and the MSM hasn't figured the gig out yet.

55 gus - I am afraid to imagine where we would be today if Obama had marginally competent partners like Hoyer and Schumer.

56 the MSM hasn't figured the gig out yet.

Oh, I think they've figured it out.  And I think that they think that they can escape the consequences.   Hopefully not, of course, but if we're pinning our hopes on anything the Pubbies do, we're probably screwed.

57 I don't get the demonizing of insurance companies.

Once I sign up, they have a vested interest in me staying healthy.  Hey, I have a vested interest in me staying healthy too!

58 Jean, therein lies the difference.  Obama is a Marxist.  He will not partner with anyone who doesn't do his bidding.  Marxists do not compromise.  Tell me ONE TIME that Obama has compromised on anything.   Reid and Pelosi are way way too stupid to know what Opie is about.  He plays them like a fiddle.

59 @1:  Railwriter:  What the hell is wrong with you?

60 My $5000 dollar deductable policy went up 33% last year and I got a notice it will go up 40% this year.  2 years ago, if memory serves, my premium was $675 a month. This year my monthly premiums will be over $1400.  I live in Ohio.  I don't know if this is due to the fact that I have reached the age that I actually have occasion to use my coverage or if it's an across the board increase.  I still figure the biggest reason for high medical costs is lots and lots of expensive malpractice insurance due do exorbatant and/or frivolous claims.  Going by the profit margin of the health industry, I don't think they are the problem. 

61 Anthem would have played their cards better if they started backing off of first dollar coverage and pushed their policies more in the direction of bankruptcy-preventing 'catastrophic' coverage. Ultimately, that is the only approach that has a chance of keeping the insurance cartel in business

People are either going to start moving to low-premium/high-deductible policies on their own, or socialists like BHO are going to point to Japan's system (while ignoring its impending collapse) and say that's what we need here. In that system, insurance companies can't compete, aren't allowed to profit, and doctors' fees are set by negotiation with the State. Great populism, crappy economics - hallmark of the left.

62

Popcorn.  Figuring out the GIG, means understanding that Obama is a hard core MARXIST and want HIS/GOVERNMENT CONTROL over every aspect of our economy.  

They don't get it.  The MSM are libs, who have been lifelong sissy prissy libs and have rutted, eatend, drank, lived with and worked with ONLY LIBS their entire lives.  They believe Opie is ONE OF THEM.  He is not.  He is DEAD SERIOUS about FUCKING AMERICA.

 

63

Ohio , I am in simlar circumstances, but your post kind of missed the point, just a little bit.

WHAT IN THE KENYAN MARXISTS BILL GIVES YOU SOMETHING BETTER AND CHEAPER??

64 It's time for Osama Obama to be removed from office.

He has no right -- or standing -- to be attacking private corporations, particularly when it's his own totalitarian designs that are forcing them into self-preservation mode.

Enough of this "health-care reform" shit. It's time to clear the Marxists out of Washington and restore government to its rightful place as defender of our nation, builder of interstate highways and collector of modest taxes to do those few things the Constitution directs the federal government to do.

This is not the Soviet Union or Venezuela, even if the Chicago Jesus wishes it were.

65 He is just a bag of shit with blue lipstick. Marxist fucktard.

66

Yes, Goy, Anthem should have anticipated an INCOMPETANT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION HALF BLACK HALF MARXIST MOTHER FUCKER WOULD USE THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT TO VILIFY THEM THEREBY CAUSING ANTHEM TO MAKE BAD BUSINESS DECISION.

67  p.s. to Ohio Dan...

I've worked in the Insurance Industry. Just because their profit margin is small doesn't mean they're not raking in enormous sums in absolute dollars (think credit card companies: 3%). Even more importantly, and I can speak to this point on direct experience, they are a GARGANTUAN sink hole for money.

Comprehensive coverage, as originally instigated by the State, is the root cause of health care cost inflation. And health care cost inflation - not the so-called "uninsured" - is the problem the socialists, having created it, are now exploiting.

68 So wait let me get this straight. During the biggest economic downturn in our lifetime they are increasing rates and growing? Exactly what the government is doing! Raising taxes is the same as raising premiums. Government salaries are greatly outpacing the average economy. The man has no concept of reality.

69

Fucking standing ovation for RAY-MAN.   My post #67 meant exactly that.

Some CORPORATIONS have decided to SUCK OPIES BALLS.

Some haven't.  The ones that haven't are seeing EXACTLY HOW FASCISM OPERATES....Chicago style.

70 gus, the insurance companies have been vilified by every politician who wants to sound like he's on the side of the little guy. In truth, they deserve every bit of vilification they get because they run an open-loop, proxy monopoly that has destroyed the free market for health care, by separating the provider from the consumer, economically, and allowed costs to rise because there is absolutely no pressure to keep them down.

71

Goy imagine you made a massive sum of money.

Imagine you had a MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVE stock holder/ownership to answer to.

You made trillions and you had to share that largesse with the TRILLIONS that invested in you.

72

Goy, you're a fucking idiot.  Ask your "Politicians" where you Social Security money is being held and invested.  Then come back to me with your sanctimonious nonsense.

Insurance companies are not charities. 

73 gus, I'm waiting for your point. Meanwhile, you seem to want to ignore mine.

74  "Insurance companies are not charities."

Straw man. Probably beer-induced.

75 Look at the things inflating medical costs.  They all lead back to government interference with the Free Market.

-Government policies that incentivize employers to provide insurance instead of pay.

-The legal system that sucks healthcare dollars out to pay off the legal profession, and the costs of defensive care to stave off lawsuits.  And the threat of lawsuits requires insurance on every device, every treatment, every drug, every professional, all costs which also get passed along through the system to the end user.

-Government shorting reimbursements to providers of Medicare and Medicaid.  That shortfall gets shifted the paying customer's insurance premiums.

-Government requires treatment without regard to ability to pay for it....then magnifies that problem by refusing to uphold its own immigration laws in return for a flood of cheap poor labor that swamps the medical system for free care by using emergency resources.

Really, the solution is MORE government?

76 The man has no concept of reality.

Posted by: Locus Ceruleus at February 20, 2010 11:21 PM (tzcjs)

No. He just doesn't give a fuck. Like all libs, he lies for the sport of it.

77

I've made several points Goy, but you're not real bright.    I love the typical LIBTARD dodge.

Insurance companies are FOR PROFIT entities.    They are regulated to the hilt.  If the people who run insurance companies were running our Government, we'd be far better off.  You can play your little LIBTARD game, but I'm not falling for it. 

Your point was moronic.

78

Exactly Nickless, the debate isn't whether Insurance Co's raise rates or make a profit.  That issue is simple.  How much profit do they make?  Not a ton.  Starbucks and McDonalds  have higher margins and return on investment.

The dimbulbs like GOY miss the entire point.  CAN GOVT DO IT BETTER?

What's GOVT's RECORD of doing this stuff better.  How has Goverment run SS, MEDICARE and the BUDGET?

This whole issue comes down to a MARXIST GRAB and reduction in liberty.

 

79
#71 is right about the relationship of costs to market when
there is a deep pocketed middle man who works off a percentage
and does not care what the costs are.
5% of a gazillion is greater than 5% of a pittance so these companies
want the costs to go up

80 gus, maybe that is why the smarter Dems, like Hoyer, Schumer, Feinstien, (to name a few from a very short list) have not become Obama's vanguard.  They know how it ends ... and they aren't fans of ice axes.

81 gus, maybe you should try actually reading what I wrote: the insurance companies HAVE DESTROYED THE FREE MARKET FOR HEALTH CARE.

Does that sound like 'libtard' nonsense?

If so. You are dain bramaged. Read nickless' #76. This is the core of the problem.

82 Kadena AFB (Okinawa) Rocks!  (Been there, loved it!)

83 "smarter dems"? most libtards don't have 2 brain cells to rub together.

84

Michelle Obama thinks doubts about her have eased

No doubts about her here, no doubts at all.

85 smarter - I guess I should have used clever, crafty, or feral

86

Goy you sound like a fucking  idiot.  Nothing personal.  You just aren't very bright.  Have a nice life.

87 gus, I'm not interested in trying to pry you out of the alcohol-soaked, knee-jerk fantasy you've built about what you think I think. Clearly, you didn't read what I wrote and definitely didn't follow the links I provided. But when you write "the dimbulbs like GOY miss the entire point.  CAN GOVT DO IT BETTER," you infer that I implied that government was the answer. I didn't.

Try reading the info at the links above. But wait until you're sober. Otherwise it'll just be a waste of time.

88 Goy at #71: Dum Dum Dum. No pressure from the insurance companies to control costs. I guess you never saw on your bill that insurance pays only this much, and consumer pays the rest. Dumb ass. If this is not pressure, what do you call it? Please make arguments that suggest improvements.

89 So do we stop hating bankers and Wall Street and move on to Anthem Blue Cross this week?

Just trying to keep current on who I should currently "hate".  And the funny part is that this crap is coming from the guy who was 'going to bring us together'. 

90 this crap is coming from the guy who was 'going to bring us together'.

He'll bring us together like William Wallace brought the Scots and English together
At a dead run bearing sharp steel

91

Exactly Jean.  They are concerned with themselves and their careers. 
Pelosi and Reid have surpassed the Peter Principle and they have also out lived their POLITICAL SHELF LIFE. 

Jean, do either Reid or Pelosi strike you as astute or bright individuals?

Me neither.  Schumer is a prick, Durban is a prick.  Both bright.
Emanuel and Axelrod are bright.

Emanuel and Durban will be here POST OBAMA, they will be the Vanguard or what's left of the DEMOCRAT PARTY.  Kind of like Charleton Heston and Planet of the Apes.

Opie is TEH WON and done.  Emanuel and Axelrod will CASH IN on their inside status to a level heretofore never seen.  At least one of the 2 will go down with the ship and profit in the 10'S of MILLIONS.

Emanuel and Axelrod are akin to TRIAL LAWYERS, except they have won the INSIDER LOTTERY of all time.

92 "I guess you never saw on your bill that insurance pays only this much, and consumer pays the rest. "

Heheh. It's not a bill, genius. It's an Explanation Of Benefits (EOB).

And are you claiming that because the doctor billed an outrageous $800 for my 15 minute cardiologist consult (which was a follow-up), but the insurance company only "paid" $482, that I have "saved" $318? Do you really think a doctor's office could EVER reasonably expect to negotiate that kind of price directly with the consumer? If so, I own a bridge in Brooklyn I can get you cheap.

93 Goy I've noticed you responded again.  I'm not interested in chatting with you.  You're a clown.   Post to your hearts delight son,  I'm not biting.

94 "I'm not biting"

I believe you just did.

95 insurance companies are teh capitalist incarnation of the socialist ideal:  a corporation which supports the have not at the expense of the have, I don't care if they have to answer to stockholders or not, how long can you sustain a system where you require 100 premium payers' premiums to support one payee, and the payers start to realize that the only way to start to break even on their premiums is to become payees?  The system is not sustainable unless you reduce benefits and increase premiums, and then the victims, payers, will change their behavior.

The valid point I see of goy's is that insurance companies remove do3wnward price pressure by insulating the cost from the payer, but I don't think that was the point he was aiming for.  I could be wrong, but I still think that insurance companies are responsible for rising costs.  Shareholder pressure is not holding costs down, just isn't working that way, though theoretically it should.

96 goy insurance companies have no desire for the costs of claims to rise in order to get rate increases. Once again they pay more in claims than they get in premiums. Keeping the rates constant and lowering the cost of claims is the better business model.

97

#89, 10=4,  Goyboy, is not the sharpest crayon in the box.   The issue isn't how much INSURANCE COMPANIES CHARGE, MAKE or PROFIT.

 

The issue is OBAMA trying to make our HEALTH CARE SYSTEM MARXIST.

Some people are "scared" by the term Marxist.  That is what Obama is.

Meanwhile, back at the DUM DUM DUM FARM, Goy see's the SHINY OBJECT and goes to work to fix the INSURANCE INDUSTRY.

98 >>60 @1: Railwriter: What the hell is wrong with you?<< Keep it shorter, faggot. Alexander Haig, RIP

99 kurtilator, you have hit the problem squarely on the head.

yes, insurance companies are "for profit" enterprises, which they should be.

and yes, they have utterly destroyed the free market in health care - with lots of help from leftist ideologues in government - by separating the health care provider from the health care consumer, economically, and eliminating the pressure that keeps the prices of all OTHER commodities at relatively affordable levels.

The skyrocketing health care cost problem can be corrected by freeing the market. Companies like Anthem will have to change their business model in order for that to happen. That is, they will need to switch to focusing on high-deductible / low-premium policies and allow routine health care to be paid for out-of-pocket... the way we pay for all OTHER commodities.

100

California has been importing latin american sloth, poverty and values for generations, and now California is just another latin american hellhole.

101 Yup. This happened to our Anthem BCBS premiums. We figured it was just Anthem trying to stay afloat with all the healthcare upheavals.

102 Spending China's money is hard work.

103 "goy insurance companies" Goy insurance companies? Did you really mean that? Because if you did, umm, A for effort, C- for execution.

104

Meanwhile we still have no answer as to how BITCHING about Insurance companies making a profit is in any way RELATED to MARXISTS mandating and confiscating our money to pay for CHEAPER and BETTER health care, all while adding anywhere from 31-50 million new premium holders.

Goy probably has the answer. 

105 If we would be honest about health care the average person would demand change. We pay so much because we ask people who work, pay premiums and taxes to pay extra to subsidize the rest of society. Our surgical practice could not survive if Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare and the VA were our only payees. You pay more so these groups can pay less. It was an arrangement between the government and insurance groups. In exchange the government put everyone over 65 on Medicare. My father worked 5 extra years so he could keep his gold plated insurance in his retirement only to have congress take it away from him in a back room deal. If these payees even payed close to market prices your premiums would fall dramatically. It drives me nuts because it is not a free market. It is a politician tampered market that is failing. Making hospitals take care of illegal aliens through the E.R. (Emtala) is not free. You are paying for it in your increased premiums.

106 "insurance companies have no desire for the costs of claims to rise in order to get rate increases."

And I never claimed they did. Although ANY increase in cash flow is going to increase their bottom line, ultimately, purely from a total revenue standpoint.

But that's not the issue. The fact is that insurance companies will NEVER do nearly as good a job at keeping downward pressure on prices as the consumer would. That has been proven beyond doubt, by looking at the rising costs of health care since comprehensive insurance gained ground.

107 railrider Thou doth protest too much!

108 "Goy probably has the answer."

I gave you the answer in my first post: Anthem would have played their cards better if they started backing off of first dollar coverage and pushed their policies more in the direction of bankruptcy-preventing 'catastrophic' coverage.

Note well: I didn't write that this is how they should respond to BHO's idiotic populist nonsense. This is how they stay in the game. Because ultimately they will either be forced out by insurance companies who DO offer these alternatives, or the socialists running this country will do a "Japan" on them and outlaw their profits altogether.

109 As a lifelong Republican, I'm concerned about the Republican's continued refusal to bow down to our Marxist foreign President and blood in my stool.

110

Hmmm. Obama want's to fix the COSTS , yet  he let NEBRASKA, and UNIONS, and Louisiana BE EXEMPT??

The ONLY issue HERE worth debating is HOW DOES MARXIST/GOVT HEALTH CARE fix ANY OF THE PROBLEMS being bandied about???

 

IT DOESN'T

111 I'm in charge here.

112

Hi TexasJew, could you do me a favor?   I keep seeing that Goy, the dimwit, keeps posting, and he's really not that bright of a guy.  Anyway, could you tell me if he makes a cogent point of some sort.

Here is the issue.  
CAN OPIE THE MARXIST, GIVE US MORE FOR LESS AND ADD 49 MILLION MORE CUSTOMERS.

I'm counting on you TexasJew, because I can't read his nonsense any longer and he is CRAVING for me to reply.

113

"The ONLY issue HERE worth debating is HOW DOES MARXIST/GOVT HEALTH CARE fix ANY OF THE PROBLEMS being bandied about??? ...  IT DOESN'T"

gus, you obviously missed you nap because that didn't make any sense. You've ENDED the debate. And you're right: it doesn't.

But the discussion has to go on, because as long as health care costs are skyrocketing, the socialists will exploit that to push their agenda.

Routine health care costs have to be brought back into equilibrium with other relatively affordable commodities. The only way to do that is to eliminate comprehensive health care insurance and put the consumer back in charge of negotiating prices directly with health care providers. High-deductible / low-premium policies will prevent the "health care bankruptcies" people seem so worried about.

114 the insurance companies have been right in bed with the government increasing the mandates for coverage, they may have seen bigger premiums and government mandated premiums and a captive audience, and what tehy got was some government asshole telling them exactly what they had to cover and how much to charge, so I have a lack of sympathy for them now.

I live in a mandatory car insurance state, IL, it was never this way until I got back here after leaving the navy.  The cost skyrocketed despite the larger pool of premium payers, larger number of government mandated payers.  When the government gets their dickskinners into your business, free market principles don't apply, and they won't apply if we let them have more regulation on health insurance.  Government kills. No matter how well meaning all these assholes might be, they are a destructive force, and, like ths scorpion in the story, they can't help it, it is their nature.

115

I see GOY posted again.  I'll bet he is pretty upset with me and is using his freedom to post, in an attempt to persuade!!!

Goy, I know you're reading my posts.

You're a fucking retard.

 

116 But that's not the issue. The fact is that insurance companies will NEVER do nearly as good a job at keeping downward pressure on prices as the consumer would. That has been proven beyond doubt, by looking at the rising costs of health care since comprehensive insurance gained ground. *But insurance companies got into selling comprehensive policies because the governmet had a wage freeze under Nixon and and ins. benefits was the under the table way to compete for workers. You all that have pointed out that government interference has made the mess and more government involvement will only make it worse are quite right.

117 Sorry got but the costs that you think will become affordable directly to the consumer if only we would allow the consumer market to set the prices is not possible. Many basic procedures and surgeries will still be beyond the costs that can be afforded by 80 percent of the people. Thus the need for insurance.

118 I've been wondering the same thing. Everything seems to be personal with Barry and there is a lot of calling out people by name.

Posted by: DSkinner at February 20, 2010 10:52 PM (vR+5P)

Yeah, but lefties are full of hate.  You have to hate to be on the Left.  They always have their Emmanuel Goldstein. 

They don't want to make the poor rich, they want to make the rich poor.  The hated, greedy rich.

119 "Goy, I know you're reading my posts."

Yes, I am.

And you look pretty embarrassed now.

Drink less. Think more.

120 At least he does not use all caps and keep blathering on about Chancellor Paul like most dim witted trolls.

121  "the costs that you think will become affordable directly to the consumer if only we would allow the consumer market to set the prices is not possible. Many basic procedures and surgeries will still be beyond the costs that can be afforded by 80 percent of the people. Thus the need for insurance."

Read again. For comprehension. I never wrote that there was no need for insurance.

There is ROUTINE HEALTH CARE - which is the vast majority of health care - and then there is more expensive, less common health care. The latter is the FIRST thing people bring up when they feel their ostensibly "free", comprehensive health care might be threatened. The fact is that non-routine care can be covered by high-deductible / low-premium insurance.

122 polynikes, another thing... Do you realize that the majority of cost in most expensive procedures is overpriced pharmaceuticals and doctors' fees? Those are absolutely negotiable, as are the things that make them expensive (e.g., medical school, the enormous sums blown on advertising new drugs, etc.). So to say that it would be "impossible" for the consumer to exercise control over health care prices - when they do this in every other commodity market - is a little bit ludicrous.

123 There is no incentive for the vast majority of the population to buy high deductible catastrophic care. Most are wise to that Ponzi scheme. Why not just work on your Spanish, spend $2.00 on a matricula consular card, and answer any billing inquiries with "no ablo Anglais"?

124

It appears the GOY  is exposing herself as an idiot.  I'm not reading the desperate LIBTARD ramblings.  But the desperation is obvious.  And this truly entertains me.

 

125 goy now you're being an obtuse dick. That high deductible you want is not affordable to a majority of consumers. Thus the dollar one insurance.

126 Goy: I've said for a long time that a low premium/catastrophic coverage only would be a better model than the comprehensive thing they have now where I get to pay for some whiner's $160 aspirin at the emergency room, but something about the way you make your case rubs me the wrong way.  It is probably the beer and scotch, but I am not taking the chance, and insurance companies brought a lot of this on themselves and so screw them. (to some extent, but not to where the gov takes them over and makes it worse)

127 Nothing surprising here. Let's get out the vote in November and let them know how wrong they are.

128 OT, but relevant with the continued lies...

It occurred to me today that, for a guy that said "that not the Rev. Wright I knew" and claims he never heard any of Wright's racist and America-bashing rants, Obama regularly uses the same type of themes and rhetoric in his speeches.

To be fair, Obama has not (publicly) stated "god damn America" or "the chickens have come home to roost", but he has said:

4/3/2009- "Now, there's plenty of blame to go around for what has happened, and the United States certainly shares its -- shares blame for what has happened. But every nation bears responsibility for what lies ahead, especially now, for whether it's the recession or climate change, or terrorism, or drug trafficking, poverty, or the proliferation of nuclear weapons, we have learned that without a doubt there's no quarter of the globe that can wall itself off from the threats of the 21st century."

It's been commented on regularly about how Obama's constantly blaming Bush, apologizing for America, bowing to other heads of state and generally throwing our country under the bus.

Is it just me, or is it becoming increasing clear that Obama did indeed learn his lesson's well from Wright about how terrorism and repression around the globe is somehow our fault? Maybe I am mistaken, but there appears to be distinct parallels with Wright's sermons and a douchbag become President running around the globe blaming America for the world's ills, defending terrorists, ordering GITMO closed as his first order or business and backing (until recently) civilian trials for terrorists.

129 Flavius: "There is no incentive for the vast majority of the population to buy high deductible catastrophic care."

First of all, insurance is not "care". But you've just made my ongoing point on this exquisitely: We have come to conflate health care and health care insurance so blindly that we can no longer conceive of getting health care without having insurance “coverage” for it.

"Most are wise to that Ponzi scheme."

Uhmmm... you don't think comprehensive, first-dollar health care insurance is a Ponzi? You're kidding, right? If not... about that bridge in Brooklyn I mentioned earlier...

polynikes: "That high deductible you want is not affordable to a majority of consumers."

Uhm... the whole REASON for LOW-PREMIUM / high-deductible insurance is because it IS affordable.


kurtilator: "insurance companies brought a lot of this on themselves and so screw them."

I've worked for them, and I completely agree. They could salvage their business in the long run, and free up the health care market if they pulled back from corrupting the economics of health care prices. But they won't. They don't have the imagination or the foresight.

130 There is an anthem board seat waiting for goy... HD plans. Why didn't they think of that.

131

Wow.  It appears that GOY is indeed a MORON.

Or, so I am told.

132 "Why didn't they think of that."

They have, of course. They offer such plans.

But - surprise - the government subsidizes comprehensive plans. Step outside the box for just a microsecond and ask yourself, "I wonder why they do that... could it have anything to do with imprinting an entitlement mindset on the electorate?"

You betcha.

133 Is gus really Spurwing Plover on meth?

134

Epic Beard Guy - Mortal Combat Style

http://tinyurl.com/y9v82t5

 

135 "It appears that GOY is indeed a MORON."

Yes. Thanks for finally picking up on that. One of the CT Morons, actually. Ask LauraW. Or Wiserbud.

Now, go back and re-read what I wrote - but this time suppress the urge for knee-jerk reaction just because it's Saturday night, you're drunk, and you want to fight with someone smarter than you.

136

Epic Beard Guy - Mortal Combat Style

http://tinyurl.com/y9v82t5

137 Gus the Shift Key Commando strikes again.

138 The deductible itself is not affordable to a majority of consumers. A five thousand deductible can come into effect for a multitude of non catastrophic procedures or illnesses. Maybe if everyone had a five thousand deductible on collision the cost of cars would come down. Not.

139 Insurance is CA is going up because the youth are laid off and are forgoing buying insurance.

It looks like what the people are saying, the MAIN issue is JOBS, not HEALTH CARE. But Obama is pretty much in insulated narcissist land and is not listening to reason.

I think also that Obama has pretty much given up any chance of getting keeping Congress and let alone getting elected for a 2nd term and is trying to push through as many of his pet projects as possible.

140 The genesis of employer sponsored health care had nothing to do with an entitlrment mindset unless it was the employer creating said mindset. But yer so dern smart you knew that. Shouldn't you be cranking out some sort of healthcare 5 year plan whitepaper.

141

Polynikes,

I have high deductible insurance and that is not what it is.  First off, you get a health savings account to save up for emergencies.  And your annual visits are paid for.  At least on my plan, the difference was not very much for diagnostic test or surgery... you have to pay a large amount for those no matter what.  What the high deductible doesn't pay for is office visits, but I am healthy and I save money overall because my premium is low. 

If you had a chronic condition it would not be good for you, but it isn't like a flat 5k deductible as you suggest.

Of course, this is one plan.  I am not an expert.  However I have read many experts that say this is the way to saving our system.

142 "The deductible itself is not affordable to a majority of consumers. A five thousand deductible can come into effect for a multitude of non catastrophic procedures or illnesses."

Uhm... the definition of "catastrophic" is actually determined by the cost of the services (at least, as currently billed). $5,000 is hardly "catastrophic"... at least as opposed to, say, $250,000 for really serious (and statistically infrequent) care.

But all that aside... so you're telling me that an annual $5,000 deductible is "not affordable" (that is, IF it is ever paid out), but the rates we're paying for comprehensive coverage - which is directly responsible for health care cost inflation in the first place - is affordable?? How's that, exactly? Oh, right - because "SOMEONE ELSE" is paying for it, huh. Your employer, say?

See the problem yet?

Anyway, high deductible policies aren't the only facet of what's needed to fix the market. The very fact that consumers begin paying for routine costs out-of-pocket will bring overall costs of health care down into equilibrium with other commodities. The only alternative - the one you apparently think we're stuck with - is that we helplessly watch health care costs continue to skyrocket until they bankrupt us or push us over the edge into socialism.

I call that small-minded, frankly, and I'm being kind.

143 I was notified in December (Anthem-Ohio) that my rates would be going up 37%.  Of course I wasn't happy about this, so I did what anyone would and should be able to do in the future...I shopped for new insurance. 

Secured EXACT same coverage that I had for only 3% more per month (Medical Mutual-Ohio).  Now I'd like to say that under BammyCare I'd be able to do this, but then I'd be lying...and unlike Bammy, I can't get away with that shit.

144 " Shouldn't you be cranking out some sort of healthcare 5 year plan whitepaper."

Already done. I guess you missed it. Not for a lack of links.

But don't take my word for it.

145 BTW, polynikes, if you read susanita's post it will hopefully ring a bell. Remember the recent flap where the left was ragging on the CEO of Whole Foods because he offered almost exactly the plan susanita describes? Boycotts ensued? Etc.? Any of this sound familiar?

146 Everything seems to be personal with Barry and there is a lot of calling out people by name.
Posted by: DSkinner

And Hillary assists with the juvenile, trivializing, unprofessional tenor of this whole clown-car administration by publicly ridiculing Sarah Palin at a townhall meeting in a foreign country. It's the way these frat boyz and ugly-coeds-alone-on-Saturday-night do things.

147 I never hear these politicians talk about how much waste there is in hospitals or how mysterious charges end up on padded bills. Oh yeah. Unions. Nevermind.

148 I'm coming in very late to this game and I apologize for that, but as much as Obama screws the pooch for so many things we have to deal with, he wasn't even a Senator during those years my business saw increases from 10%, 14% and one year 23% from Blue Cross, Oxford, Aetna and the other companies raised costs at rates I would kill to be able to.

I understand that malpractice law suits and other outside costs drive them to large increases, but at the same time they were showing record profits every year. Nothing wrong with making money. Nothing wrong with using the idiot rules placed there by the States to your advantage, but when those laws eliminate the possibility of fair competition and those companies take advantage of them at your expense, then something needs to change.

If what the government was trying to do what they said they were trying to do, which was make this crap moire affordable, I'd still be on board. Instead we get pretty much the opposite of what they are still telling us they are giving us.

We lose all around and for yet another year, IO have to offer my guys a polocy of larger deductibles. I'm still covering the 70%, but who knows how long that will last.

Insurance companies have been raising rates at unsustainable levels long before Obama entered the scene.

149

Makes me sick. I love my Anthem Blue Cross coverage.

Recent accident: ambulance, conscious sedation, surgery, two days in the hospital. Total cost: $24,000. My co-pay? $500.

The One can bite me.

150 "Insurance companies have been raising rates at unsustainable levels long before Obama entered the scene."

Exactly. And they've been doing this in conjunction with the unsustainable rate at which health care costs have skyrocketed.

flash', I think we're getting to a tipping point where more and more employers are going to start seeing the wisdom in the approach Whole Foods took with this. Companies like Anthem will eventually figure out that's the market they want to be in. Either that or they'll lose the market entirely. Either to competitors or an overtly socialist government, like Japan's, which legislates away their profits.

151 Obama’s West Wing is filled with people who are in their jobs because of their Chicago connections or because they signed on early during his presidential campaign,” complained Doug Wilder, who in 1990s Virginia was America’s first elected black governor and was an early backer of Obama. “One problem is they do not have sufficient experience at governing at the executive branch level. The deeper problem is that they are not listening to the people.”

Insulated and Inexperienced, lack of practical experience means they are too busy trying untested academic theories that look good on paper and their insulation led them deaf to the voice of the public.

152 So, let me get this straight. The Federal government creates the impetus for employer health care during WWII, Nixon further cements the bond, Ted 'Pond o' Chivas' Kennedy creates HMOs, backroom deals allow states to exclude intrastate policies, the Democrats prevent any kind of tort legistlation on the Federal level, and successive state policies fuck the system up to an irreparable degree so therefore it's the fault of the insurance companies?

Did I get it right?

153

Insurance companies have been raising rates at unsustainable levels long before Obama entered the scene.

Record profits eh?  Evidence for that?

If I am not mistaken BCBS is a Non-Profit company.

In any case, if you want to reduce the cost of healthcare and insurance, get the government out of it entirely.

And all shows one thing, as I said a few weeks back when everyone decried healthscam dead; it will not be dead until the Democrats are ran out of Washington.

154 157 So, let me get this straight. The Federal government creates the impetus for employer health care during WWII, Nixon further cements the bond, Ted 'Pond o' Chivas' Kennedy creates HMOs, backroom deals allow states to exclude intrastate policies, the Democrats prevent any kind of tort legistlation on the Federal level, and successive state policies fuck the system up to an irreparable degree so therefore it's the fault of the insurance companies?

Did I get it right?

Posted by: Iskandar at February 21, 2010 02:02 AM (/o58C)

The feds left the cash on the table, the insurance companies stuffed said cash into their shorts.

155 You really think the insurance companies only raised rates at a level they had to  to keep up with costs?

This mess started with Government and Insurance companies together.

A doctor's office used to contain the doctor, a nurse and a clerical worker who was often the doctor's wife. A visit cost about twenty dollars.

Then Unions demanded a different and portable health care, government and insurance companies responded and HMO's and paperwork became a way of life.

156 Code Pink Shows Up At CPAC, Gets Heckled

157
From a doctor that I know...

Very important information has just been made public that I think is something you should all be aware of: Gonorrhea Lectim
The Center for Disease Control has issued a warning about a new virulent strain of this old disease. The disease is called Gonorrhea Lectim. It's pronounced "Gonna re-elect'im."
The disease is contracted through dangerous and high risk behavior involving putting your cranium up your rectum.
Many victims contracted it in 2008 ..... but now most people after having been infected for the past 1-2 years are starting to realize how destructive this sickness is.
It's sad because it is so easily cured with a new procedure just coming on the market called Votemout!
You take the first dose/step in 2010 and the second dosage in 2012 and simply don't engage in such behavior again, otherwise it could become permanent and eventually wipe out all life as we know it.
Several states are already on top of this like Virginia and New Jersey,and apparently now Massachusetts with many more seeing the writing on the wall.
Please pass this important message on to all those bright folk you really care about. (Just like I did)

158 No luck in removing goy the deluded troll yet?  The ravages of thermite poisoning. 

159 Wrong on all counts goy. Catastrophic Care is an industry term. Maybe you should concentrate on finding a job and moving out of your parents basement. Drop the $10 words that you do not understand so you don't sound like a total clown.  Be sure your deductible is paid up before talking out of your ass to anyone in public. Epic Beard Guy demonstrated how to deal with your kind. Does the stall you work in the bath house never close?

160 132

Wow.  It appears that GOY is indeed a MORON.

Or, so I am told.

Posted by: gus at February 21, 2010 12:26 AM (MaqIC)

I second that. Just another truther ass clown.

161

This is the first thread IÂ’ve seen "goyÂ’s" posts. I looked at his blog; not obviously Leftist; sensors do not register a Ronulan presence, ......

 Maybe he is a troll, but based on the words heÂ’s posted, it doesnÂ’t show. IÂ’ve heard similar points elsewhere, and not just recently, so I give the points credit.

Maybe his next few posts will tell.

162 Suffice to say, "Flavius Julius" is a jerk.

163

Holy shit.  I'm reading the comments from last night, and I see that "gus" was obviously hammered and on a rampage. 

Gus, why are you failing to see that goy is making the most conservative argument possible?  He's advocating the elimination of COMPREHENSIVE health insurance paid for by a third party (ie. employers, government). 

The only way to bring down costs is to return to a free-market system whereby the consumer directly pays for services.  This allows for COMPETITION, which drives down prices.

Right now, there's ZERO incentive for a person with COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH INSURANCE to comparison shop.  I'm speaking from personal experience, here.  I have outstanding health insurance, provided for me by my employer.  I have no incentive to control costs.  I take my kids and family to the best doctors whenever they need ANYTHING and I NEVER worry what it's going to cost me out of pocket.  Why should I?  It's not costing me anything (besides depressed wages due to rising health care costs), and I don't have the option of receiving higher pay in exchange for taking a higher-deductible plan. 

Goy, thanks for the intelligent comments.  I appreciate it.

 

164 I'm confused about something... how's come the only republicans with balls are Michelle Bachman, Liz Cheney and Sarah Palin?

165 I'm with ya, stickety. Goy seemed to know what he was talking about, moved past the attack dogs on the thread and continued to make his or her point. Nothing paulish or leftist. I appreciated the insight. Sun up soon, have a great day.

166

If Barry were truly interested in solving the supposed health crisis, he would want the defendant to talk - a lot more opportunity for them to implicate themselves.  Ask Anthem why they raised their rates by so much.  Of course, we all know that if Anthem got the opportunity to talk, the answer would blow barry and his evil socialist plan away.

He is a scumbag third world dictator and his blinded followers either need to see the light or "go away".  You all can decide what "go away" means for yourself as it does mean different things to different people.

167

Artruen:

I honestly don't understand why goy was getting attacked.  I'm going to assume that the guys who were misreading what he was saying were drunk or otherwise incapacitated.

Personally, I think that Paul Ryan's ideas make some sense (converting Medicare/Medicaid into voucher programs based on need / medical conditions). 

However, I wish conservatives would go in a slightly different direction.  I'd really like to see the feds get completely out of the comprehensive health insurance business.  I'm vastly oversimplifying, but in general, I'd like to see:

1. FEDS provide universal catastrophic coverage connected to an HSA.  The feds set a high annual deductible to limit federal involvement & liability (I'm thinking something along the lines of $10,000+, adjusted for inflation every year). 

2. Individuals are responsible for either purchasing extended coverage from private companies or for using their HSA to pay for out-of-pocket costs.

3. The FEDS offer vouchers, which can be directly deposited into an individual's HSA, to help aid low income individuals/families with the purchase of extended coverage (or just to build up funds in their HSA). 

I'm sure there are some flaws in my thinking here, but I think this would be a step in the right direction.  At the very least, it simplifies the federal government's role in paying for health care. 

168

The greedy capitalist card? Again?

Flashback, October 2008: The stock market tanked and Obama kept asking, "What would have become of all of you retirees if the Republicans had had their way and your Social Security savings were in the stock market?"

That's like asking if the Saints would have won the Super Bowl if Kyle Orton hadn't thrown so many interceptions in the first half of the game.

Either Obama is an incurable ignoramous who can't get the most basic facts right or a super genius who knows how to play to the public's emotions. Form your own opinions on that, but as a practical matter it'd be wise to assume the latter.

169 i want

170 I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking goy, though it probably sounded that way.  I just don't like the whole concept of insurance companies, making a large pool of payers all contribute to a small pool of benefit gatherers, the whole thing has a communist feel to it.  There is a big difference in that premiums are not collected at the barrel of the sheriff's gun, though the proposed fines and mandatory enrollment for obamacare would wipe out that defense of insurance companies.

I don't have a better answer for the case of expensive treatments, but here is where goy suggests that insurance only cover the expensive stuff, and that I agree with.  I can't help but think that costs would come down if  insurance didn't cover people  who go to the emergency room for aspirin and band-aids, and I think anyone who  is associated with a hospital or health care industry would back me up that this happens a lot more than most other people think.

171

you know something else weird about health care?  the same procedure at the same facility has very different prices.  e.g. MRI at a Richmond VA hospital.  I had 2 head MRIs within 1 week of each other.  one was $3,000, one was $800.  same insurance.  same head.

 

172

What is additionally interesting in all of this is the ultimate “bait and switch” that the Democrats are trying to push.

Make no mistake, this isnÂ’t about insuring the uninsured. If another person is insured by this bill, it will not be by design.

This is about cost containment for the federal government, but if you read the bill there is virtually no cost containment in the there.  The only mechanism there for cost containment are the “death panels” AKA the Medical Advisory Board.    And I donÂ’t mean a personal “death panel” Â…  I mean a across the board “we donÂ’t fund that procedure any more” death panel, like those of the British NHS.

And the other half of this nightmare of a bill is that much of it is funded by taxing medical providers .. the drug companies, the medical device manufacturers, the “Cadillac” plans.

Imagine for a second that Obama proposed an extension of services for the poor, but funded it with new taxes on providers to the poor  ..  the supermarkets, the landlords, and the used car dealers, while the blood sucking lawyer go on unabated.  How long before it would degenerate into ultimate chaos ?

Meanwhile, the plan to extend this sort of chaos is embedded in “cap and tax” on the energy front.   All of these will eventually drive these industries to chaos in the name of speeding up their evolution.

173 The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Sunday shows that 22% of the nation's voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. That is the lowest level of strong approval yet recorded for this President. Forty-one percent (41%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -19.

174 Maybe we should start a "When the hell are we going to get a new thread?" pool.

175
Maybe we should start a "When the hell are we going to get a new thread?" pool.

Posted by: FUBAR at February 21, 2010 09:37 AM (1fanL)

I am shocked to find gambling in this here establishment.

176

First:  All Blue Cross companies are nonprofits.

Second:  If CA is like the rest of the US, they have an Insurance Commissioner whose office approves all rate hikes.  No insurance company raises rates without the approval of the state's Office of the Insurance Commissioner (or whatever regulatory agency).

State governments already regulate insurance companies.

177 I say go for the Murtha solution.  Dem pig pols come out of hospitals toe tagged.

178 Geezus Gabe, just trying to stay in business?

The 5 billion anthem made last year wasn't enough?

Let me clue you in on something. We are all going to get sick- and some of us will get sick and die. All of us. And the predators know this. They are waiting at that watering hole for you. You're coming to that watering hole Gabe. And these greedy pricks will be there to greet you. And bankrupt you.

It ain't just anthem. Who the fuck passes 35% increases and gets away with that? We got the greediest drug producers on the planet, with margins in four and five figures and 20 year patent protection. The drug industry is the biggest monopoly ever conceived on this planet-I think 7 companies make 95% of our drugs.  We got greedy health care providers and a system that spends 33% on administrative costs. And we have attorneys. Yes Gabe. Those greedy bastards are in the mix too. And the greedy malpractice insurers that forced my friend, a gynecologist out of Mississippi? His annual malpractice insurance? Just a paltry 88,000 a yr. Medical device makers are right behind charging thousands for a little piece of surgical steel. Health care is this nations golden goose and they have just about killed it.

I hate the idea of government run health care buddy, but if something doesn't happen soon, we are fucked. I don't care for Obama and his singling out of Anthem. The whole system is warped from top to bottom. So what's your solution Gabe? Or do you just beat up on the idiots who marginalize one piece of the mess?

179 Artruen: "I honestly don't understand why goy was getting attacked."

I blame what must have been too much Valu-Rite and too few hobos to hunt, which apparently bored both gus and Flavius into a drunken, angry quest to find the depths of their depravity.

---------------------------------

Note: WellPoint is NOT a non-profit.

For those folks noting that BCBS and some other insurance enterprises are "non-profit" (in the HMO sense of the word, which isn't what we peons know as non-profit)...

ALSO note that an enterprise does not have to BE non-profit in order to act as an enormous money sinkhole. Uhm... F.E.D.E.R.A.L. G.O.V.E.R.N.M.E.N.T. - any questions?

If you ever visit one of these places, count the vast numbers of (H1-B Visa) contract programmers employed by these firms at between $75-150/hr. (to the contract firm, NOT the engineer). Note that they're mostly doing nothing but watching CNN and day trading while they endlessly re-write old Oracle stored procedures. Check out the numerous, mind-numbing levels of costly bureaucracy running these places - not to mention their opulent surrounds, enormous campuses and array of real estate investments - you'd know what I mean.

Also, more importantly, being "non-profit" does NOT prevent these companies from totally fucking up the free market for health care. If you read nothing else on this, read this. It doesn't cover everything, but it's a good start.

Other than the fact that it gives them complete control over every aspect of our lives, WHY the hell do you think the socialists want to nationalize the health care INSURANCE industry so badly!!?!?!?

I don't post at the HQ often, but I've made these point here before. Insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk, NOT for funding every little dollar of routine health care we purchase.

Whether it's "intentional", "predatory" or not, comprehensive health care insurance companies in the aggregate comprise an open-loop, proxy monopoly which effectively controls both the price of AND access to health care. They cut the health care consumer out of the commodity economics equation completely, allowing health care prices to skyrocket in ways that are completely out-of-line with every other commodity where insurance is NOT abused to pay for the goods or services. Now the socialists are exploiting those rising prices, using them as an excuse to nationalize that portion of the economy INSTEAD OF acting to bring routine health care costs back into equilibrium with other commodities.

180
Well, Gabe doesn't have any solutions because he's immature and inexperienced. But your 'we gotta do something!' solution sucks.

What we need to do is get the government to 1) stop meddling, and 2) allow for more competition. The free-market will solve this problem on its own if the govt would get the fuck out of the way.

181 Gus was an entertaining drunk, and he at least caught the gist of goy's logic, which seemed headed in a progressive direction to me. As someone else said, something about the tone was off-putting.

182 Are you aware of the record keeping and potential litigation related to those little pieces of surgical steel?  There's a reason they cost more than a stainless steel sink at Home Depot.

In the end, it's useless.  You're going to die.  Me, too.  The reason I get off my butt and go to the gym is not to look at the ladies, although many are nice.  It isn't to make me into a super studly dude, because I'm closer to the "what hill?" stage.  It's so I can keep going in a healthy state until whatever is going to do me in does me in. 

So I wouldn't be hating on the drug companies too much.  No profits, no drugs.  You could probably get something cheaper from China, but judging by the luck they've had with pet food, I'm willing to pay our inflated prices.   The reason you don't have the choice is your Imperial Federal bureaucracy.

  

183 Well struck Goy. You speak well to the 33% admin costs I am aware of.

Most folks don't even know what "non profit" means. They think non profits don't turn a profit!!! Is that some hilarious shit??

It's like calling a private bank, the "Federal Reserve" and the sheep thinking that it is a gov owned bank.

And dead people...

We don't have a free market. We killed a free market long ago. We regulate and protect drug manufacturers, device makers, refuse to cap awards, and meddle in every facet of health care ad nauseum. We allow direct drug marketing via advertising to consumers and we are the only country that does this. So if you mean all government intervention, all of that pre-existing government interference, I agree. But at this point, the system is fucked. And some times, you simply can't unfuck things.

184 in the town where i live is a hospital that 20 years ago was little more than a neighborhood clinic, but which has been transformed into a world class medical facility with nationally ranked, cutting edge, care & research in several specialties (including cardiac & oncology). it was transformed with a mixture of private & public funding & is maintained by the high premiums i & others pay. it's an astonishing place. & they can be found all over the country. whereas 30 years ago there were a handful of hospitals to get a heart bypass, now there are dozens. TRUE progress. it's expensive. but in our crazy hodgepodge "system", actually made up of inter-related insurance, corporate, university, research & govt. systems, america has been at the cutting edge of the most extraordinary innovations in medicine in 10,000 years. fueled by the drives for innovation, distribution & profit, it's an astounding achievement. expensive & to a degree, inequitable , it is the forefront of the most phenomenal achievements of humanity over the past few decades. no one, left or right, dem or rep, talks about this. but is a top priority for me.

185 Well said, Goy.

One cannot say this enough:

Insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk, NOT for funding every little dollar of routine health care we purchase.

And with that in mind, the Republicans need to go into any healthcare "summit" loaded for bear with some facts:

Neither Congress's plan nor Obama's plan (whatever that turns out to be) will do one thing to help spiraling costs.  Premiums will continue to rise.  The price of an office visit to see your doctor will not go down, although you may be "sharing" more of the cost of that visit with your insurer.

And one more thing.  If Obama shows up with a plan at all he needs to be told in no uncertain terms by the GOP leadership to throw that plan away and be ready to start from scratch.  If he can promise the president of Iran, Ahmadinejad, to sit down and negotiate with no preconditions, he should be able to show the American people the same courtesy.  And the GOP leadership should be ready to walk out en masse if he does not.  (and Boehner should use that phrasing to the cameras as he walks out)

186 What should really terrify people is when politicians spend hours talking about "health care reform" and never once mention the actual health care. For every dollar in "evil" profits that the insurance companies make someone was cured, a baby was delivered, a life was saved, etc. If the insurance companies are gonna get all the blame, let's at least acknowledge that they do a hell of a lot more than Gov't to keep Americans healthy.

187 You are preaching to the choir Mark D. But if you think 5k for a fucking 1 oz stint, or 500 bucks for a bag of saline solution (water), is a reasonable price, I gotta used kitchen sink I'll sell ya for 100k.

188 184

I work at the other end of 'healthcare'. I wonder if any one is aware of the layers of bureaucracy involved in every single visit made to a hospital. How many federal, state and local government agencies have a hand in the pie. On top of the private governing agencies. How top-heavy health-care facilities really are. Does anybody think a payment made to a facility pays for treatment? Probably a few cents on the dollar but not much more. That said, 'insurance' IS putting money in a risk pool. It is a betting game based on the odds. If the insurance companies actually had to compete, costs would drop. There is plenty of room for savings, there is no impetus to save. Or cut costs. Or whatever. Finally, before I go and do something useful today, we are all going to die. Not some of us. It is how we live that matters. OK, I'm done, lets get a new thread on here...........

189 no one is talking about r & d, the training, research, innovation as well as distribution of medical breakthroughs that are the point of it all.

190 the $500 saline solution or $1,000's per year in premiums pay for the entire medical infrastructure that makes innovation possible & effective. again, no one talks about this.

191 Tattoo: "...caught the gist of goy's logic, which seemed headed in a progressive direction to me. As someone else said, something about the tone was off-putting."

The only "gist" gus caught was the spew from his own... oh, nevermind....

So you think it's "progressive" to move toward a free market, eh? Interesting. That's the first time I've heard my thoughts on this characterized in that way, really.

That aside, when someone refuses to read what I've written, assumes facts (and intention) not in evidence, and blindly swings with something like "you're a fucking idiot" or "you're an obtuse dick" without noting a reason... yeah, I get a little off-putting. It's a character flaw. Just my nature. I blame myself.

192
When the democrats whine and lie about everything being Bush's fault:  Here's the truth:

"Earlier this month, The Wall Street Journal's editorial page did an analysis of the federal government's debt that will be held by the public over the coming decade. When the Democrats took control of Congress in 2007, the debt held by the public was 36.2% of GDP. It rose to 40.2% the next year. This year it will be about 63.6%, next year 68.6%, then 77% of GDP in 2020. And the Obama administration's budget estimates 218% in 2050."

193 Lunatic: "5k for a fucking 1 oz stint, or 500 bucks for a bag of saline solution (water), is a reasonable price"

gomm: "the $500 saline solution or $1,000's per year in premiums pay for the entire medical infrastructure that makes innovation possible & effective. again, no one talks about this."

Folks, these prices are ONLY made possible by the open-loop economics that fail to exert any downward pressure whatsoever. They are the "going rate" because they are "all the market will bear" right now. The problem is this: the consumer is NOT the market any longer. The market right now is whatever the insurance companies can negotiate with health care providers. They base this on the total economic resources provided by their pool of insured members, NOT the amount any given member might pay for a given service. By doing this, they distort the market and make it look like it will bear a far larger price than it really does. If you want proof of how this works, just look at how health care costs have outpaced inflation for decades.

Also, insurance companies have far less incentive, for many reasons, to keep prices down the way the consumer would - especially for the vast majority of care, which is routine health care. That care should NOT be getting paid for with a risk-management mechanism like insurance.

As for R&D and innovation, skyrocketing health care prices aren't necessary to do this. EVERY OTHER SECTOR has seen incredible advances and innovation while keeping the products they sell relatively affordable. Take a trip to your local ghetto. Count the number of cell phones, cars, i-Pods, PSPs, and all the other technology you see. Innovation doesn't require a broken market - like the one we have in health care right now.

194 Lemon: "Here's the truth:"

Exactly.

But the bigger truth is that the Congressional Democrats have exploded the deficit BY A FACTOR OF TEN in only three years.

In 2007 - the last federal deficit one can reasonably lay at the feet of the Republicans (so-called) - was something like $160B. In January of 2007, the trends for spending and revenue had the U.S. on track for a balanced budget by some time in late 2008.

This year the deficit is $1.6T.

An innumerate electorate is a suicidal electorate.

Actually, maybe that's not even true. Japan's debt is now almost 200% of their GDP and I know they're pretty good at math. Hmmm... I wonder what the common denominator could be...

195

@62 Goy - socialists like BHO are going to point to Japan's system (while ignoring its impending collapse) and say that's what we need here. In that system, insurance companies can't compete, aren't allowed to profit, and doctors' fees are set by negotiation with the State. Great populism, crappy economics - hallmark of the left.

I was reading something online a couple of weeks ago regarding Japan's health care system.....I'll go looking for the link if I feel motivated.  Short version is that if you want or need care, bribes need to be paid at every step along the way.  Bribes to certain "govt officials" who allow you to make a doctor's appt.  Bribes to the office staff at the doctor's office, who are the actual gatekeepers.  Even bribes to the doctors themselves.  Cash and expensive liquor are the bribes of choice.

The stated fees for Japan's health care system are very modest, which is what everyone brags about, but the real cost (which includes the bribes) is very high.  Plus you need to know somebody to get seen in the first place.  Kinda like the "Chicago Way".  Gotta know somebody.

196 One hundred years war = BAD
One hunderd years deficits - GOOD

197
This blog is so dead I went to HotAir.

HotAir sucks. Allah sucks. Ed sucks. Their comment threads suck. And the commenters over there suck.

198
But I did get to see Ann Coulter's speech at CPAC. It was great.

Allah's description of it as a standup routine rather than speech is, however, accurate. But it's all good. And 7 minutes of Ann Coulter is funnier and smarter than a whole year's worth of Allah-punditry.

199 innovation. the 800 lb. feather in the room no one is talking about. quality care, access, cost, these are all issues of merit. but research, knowledge & breakthrough medical treatments are the hidden boon of the entire edifice. & innovation is what makes it all worth it.

200 As the Government gets more involved in health care, whether with a public option or by adding yet another layer of exorbitantly funded bureacracy to the process, the quality of the care will decrease.
That's a lesson that history tries to teach us every day.

201 Guess all the co-bloggers are in church.

202 & btw, innovation is going on in universities & private hospital throughout the nation.make THAT the priority, & everything else makes sense as a cohesive whole.

203 & i think it was very nice of me to bring this perspective to your attention.

204 I'll be damned...there's a new thread!

205 Everything the Democrats touch turns into a giant pile of steaming shit.  Economy, health, education, auto industry, you name it, and if they fucked with it, it's now a pile of shit.  Wake the fuck up all you zombies in our nation.  Look what these socialist fucks have done to our country.  One huge pile of steaming shit.

206

@ 109 Goy - Anthem would have played their cards better if they started backing off of first dollar coverage and pushed their policies more in the direction of bankruptcy-preventing 'catastrophic' coverage.

I'm involved in public sector union negotiations from the management side, and union contracts almost always demand first dollar coverage as part of their health coverage.  "Catastrophic" coverage is allowed to be offered as an option (sometimes) but unionized govt workers demand the best for themselves.  Let somebody else pay for it of course.  The last minute deal to exclude union plans from the Cadillac tax should tell you everything you need to know about who in America actually receives Cadillac plans.

If Anthem stopped offering first dollar coverage, they would no longer be eligible to sell their product, such as it is.

207 I was reading something online a couple of weeks ago regarding Japan's health care system ... Posted by: Boots

Sounds like an article at Big Lizards (no, not that one.)  Also, only from anecdotal stuff I've heard, Japan's hospitals are to be avoided unless you are dying. The rate of complications and medical errors is greatly under-reported.

208

government subsidies for healthcare have created this nightmare of upward-spiraling cost and the only solution is to get the government out.

if that means that hospitals that are so badly managed they can not survive without government assistance fail then so be it.

it's the "free" part of "free market" that progressive Dems & Repubs don't like, you aren't truly free unless you are as free to fail as succeed.

209 Boots:

There was a good article on this in, of all places, WaPo a while back. I don't remember if it covered the bribe aspect, but it's clear that the Japanese system is going down for the same reasons our Medicare and Social Security systems are failing - and that's all DESPITE the fact that Japanese socialized medicine enjoys legislative advantages that would be unconstitutional (for what that's worth) here.

210 Schumer is a prick, Durban is a prick.  Both bright.

Sorry but in no non-bizarro world can Durbin be considered bright.

211

Not really seeing a problem here....

 

OsamaHusseinIslamObama 2012'

(the terrorist-Uighur-ACORN-media choice)

-It's never too early to campaign-

212 So you think it's "progressive" to move toward a free market, eh? Interesting.

I don't think you're really heading toward free market solutions. I think you're just referencing them as you trashtalk  insurance companies, so it gives you cover to repeat the President's talking points.

213  Boots: "If Anthem stopped offering first dollar coverage, they would no longer be eligible to sell their product, such as it is."

Right. Anthem, et al., will never stop selling these types of policies, nor do I think they should be prevented from doing so.  But they should be made as economically unattractive as possible, primarily through tax legislation (e.g., stop subsidizing them, for starters).

Either way, if we don't start recognizing the real cause-and-effect here, and make some rational economic choices, at some point one of three things is going to happen. More likely, a hodge-podge of all three.

1. More employers will start going the Whole Foods route, creating a bigger market for high-deductible / low-premium plans.

2. Things will keep sailing on just as they are, with no end to unsustainable increases in health care costs, until that black hole sinks our entire economy.

3. The socialists make good on their agenda to subsume the health care insurance sector. See also: Japan.

As for what unions demand, don't get me started. That's the next aspect of our broken economy we need to fix as we rush headlong into BHO's version of a syndicalist/corporatist fascist State.

A few years back, when the union tried to demand these kinds of increases at Sikorsky, workers went on strike for weeks (Teamsters). The going annual cost per employee for health insurance at that time was already something like $16,000, and Sikorsky just said, "screw you". Ultimately, the CT Congressional Delegation had to threaten to step in because the feds were threatening to transfer Sikorsky's contracts to firms in other States. The union blinked. Interestingly, the FT tried to paint the outcome as though their decision saved face for Bush, which gave me a chuckle.

214 Tattoo: "I think you're just referencing them as you trashtalk  insurance companies, so it gives you cover to repeat the President's talking points."

Heh. Another Moron who can't be bothered to read.

Which of our Marxist Master Manipulator's "talking points" did I repeat, exactly?

When has BHO EVER said that insurance companies - with the help of a meddling federal government - have destroyed the free market for health care? BHO wouldn't know a free market if the definition was scrolled on his teleprompter.

If you think it's "trashtalk" to state objectively verifiable trends then, again, I'll have to say that's the first time I've seen my ideas characterized as such. I'm sure you think insurance companies have only the finest altruistic motives. Enjoy that fantasy while it lasts.

215

the problem isn't insurance companies per se, but rather government regulation of insurance coampanies, more specifically regulations that force insurance companies to insure ppl who aren't insurable. If the government would leave the insurance coampanies alone they would insure according to risk and the insurance market would stablize.

but, but that would mean that lots of ppl couldn't buy insurance and would have to pay for goods and services out of their own pocket.

exactly

216 Shoey: "the problem isn't insurance companies per se, but rather government regulation of insurance coampanies, more specifically regulations that force insurance companies to insure ppl who aren't insurable."

Sorry, Shoey - this sounds good because it puts the blame on government (where it belongs), but it misses the point. The dynamic you've described here is not what's causing health care costs to skyrocket.

"lots of ppl couldn't buy insurance and would have to pay for goods and services out of their own pocket."

Maybe you could explain what would be wrong with paying for routine care - which is the vast majority of health care consumed - in this way?

Again, insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk. When we abuse it to pay for every dollar of care we get, we're just helping the socialists achieve their dream of "spreading the wealth around". We do this by "spreading the cost around" and ultimately forcing everyone in the insurance pool to pay for the services consumed by the few who do. Ultimately, the price for those services expands to the level supportable by the entire pool - which is a level far beyond the resources available to any one member of the pool.

217

insurance is not a right,

insurance is a commodity available to those who can afford it and responsible enough to recieve it.

that leaves out a lot of ppl.

it's supposed to really suck to be a lazy, irresponsible person.

when it doesn't we all become lazy and irresponsible.

welcome to America 2010

218

Goy, I've been reading through the thread, and you make some excellent points and I feel more educated on the subject.  Thanks for persevering through the attacks and supporting your arguments rationally. 

I bookmarked your blog, too.

219 marmo: "  Thanks for persevering through the attacks and supporting your arguments rationally."

Thanks. I suppose I should have known better than to post anything mildly complex on a Saturday night between football and baseball seasons... ;-)

220 goy your I'm smarter than you and thus you don't understand attitude is bullshit. The main reason for the increase in healthcare costs are the ever expanding type care you can receive. Most policies today have reaonable deductibles and co pays. You seem to think that if people had large deductibles the cost of healthcare would go down because of market forces. I'm telling you that people would either avoid preventative treatment or experience a blow to there finances for something as simple as a kidney stone. The innovations like knee replacements and hip replacements would have been slow to develop under your plan. Less MRI machines would have been purchased and so on. I beleive reform is needed but I disagree with you that it requires eliminating the option of comprehensive insurance because you wrongly believe it to be the main cost generator. But what do I know since i'm lost without football or baseball to watch. Dick.

221 p: "your I'm smarter than you and thus you don't understand attitude is bullshit."

Well, it would be, if that were my attitude.

My attitude, however, is a little different. It insists on ridiculing anyone who's clearly not interested in actually reading a post before responding to it, and who can't help using straw man tactics to start a comment thread flame war.

That's my attitude.

None of what you just posted stands up to basic economics or observable trends. Government has been pushing Americans into comprehensive care since the '60s. The resulting explosion in health care costs started there, not with the expansion in types of care (where's the evidence for THAT, BTW?). When you compare the use and price of health care to the use and prices of other commodities, and realize that health care is the ONLY market where we abuse insurance to pay for every last dollar of what we consume, you will start to understand the dynamics in play here. Try thinking outside the box for a microsecond and this point will enlighten you.

" i'm lost without football or baseball to watch."

So it would seem.

222 Obama will never admit government interference played any role in healthcare costs rising any more than he admitted as much regarding housing. But he's perfectly happy to blame insurance companies alone. Your blaming insurance companies AND the government helps him more than us.

223 Goy

Again, insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk. When we abuse it to pay for every dollar of care we get, we're just helping the socialists achieve their dream of "spreading the wealth around". We do this by "spreading the cost around" and ultimately forcing everyone in the insurance pool to pay for the services consumed by the few who do.

Once again.. can't repeat this to many times.

One very American-style solution to a lot of this would be universal catastrophic coverage. Pool every American (paid for with payroll tax of 1% or so) and use that pooled fund to pay for any and all catastrophic medical needs above a certain dollar amount... say $20k?  (maybe less.. dunno)

Then you either self-insure the first $20k or buy high deductible (or whatever deductible you are comfortable with) insurance to cover the gap.. cheap.

High deductible would be best.. Believe me.. people would start finding cheaper ways to get primary care if they actually were faced with the real cost of it.  Taking the kids to a full-service doctor every time they have the sniffles because you only have a $15 co-pay is the trouble with prices.

224 Tattoo: "Your blaming insurance companies AND the government helps him more than us."

If you'd paid any attention at all, you'd know I'm not blaming insurance companies. They are all too happy to provide the service we demand. And no one should try to stop them from doing that. We can, however, make it economically unattractive to demand those services and, thereby, move back in the direction of a truly free market for health care.

The problem is this: the service we're demanding from them is bankrupting us. People - irrespective of political stripe - are addicted to the ostensibly 'free' health care they receive using comprehensive insurance. Our employers usually pay the bulk of the premium and the only money that ever leaves our wallets is the co-pay, which has no relationship whatsoever to the actual value of the goods or services received - it's just a way for the provider to recoup a modicum of what they're not getting from the insurance claim.

The problem is that - as we use it - comprehensive group insurance is ALREADY essentially socialized medicine. It's just that it isn't run (directly) by the bloated federal government. But it spreads the wealth around in exactly the same way it would with Obamacare, because it spreads the COSTS around to the point where they no longer have any relationship to the consumer's perceived value of the goods and services being provided. They simply keep increasing as long as the GROUP has sufficient financial resources to cover them. Since only a subset of the group is ever using services at any one time, those costs increase BEYOND the point where any one member of the group can afford them. That's exactly what is reflected in the last 4 decades of skyrocketing health care costs.

This problem took 50 years to create. It won't be resolved overnight or without a good deal of pain. But it has to be solved, and that has to happen by bringing health care costs back into equilibrium with other commodities. The alternatives are that we go bankrupt with the status quo, or we become Soviet Union II. There are no other options.

225 Chitown-Jerry:

The frustrating thing about this problem isn't so much the doe-eyed stupidity expressed by the perennial federal welfare recipients, their leftist enablers and the erstwhile conservative members of the Republican Party who have turned "compassionate conservatism" (i.e., Socialism Lite®) into a parlor game.

What's frustrating is the overwhelming number of conservatives and libertarians who, because they're afraid to lose the cushy deal they have where their first-dollar medical expenses are all "covered", can't seem to see the basic economics in play here. Every other commodity we consume is paid for directly. But they can't seem to grasp how, with health care and ONLY with health care, they're actively engaged in facilitating socialism by exploiting the wealth-generating engine of capitalism.

You're right. If you start with the definition of insurance, some folks go, "oh yeah... huh!" But most folks try to find ANY other cause for the skyrocketing costs of health care. ANYTHING that doesn't bring their free health care ride into question. It really is, as I've noted at my site, a kind of mass hysteria.

226

Every other commodity we consume is paid for directly.

True enough, Goy.

But they can't seem to grasp how, with health care and ONLY with health care, they're actively engaged in facilitating socialism by exploiting the wealth-generating engine of capitalism.

But it isn't just health care. Consider retirees living off of Social Security, a company pension or even an annuity. With these people, everything is paid for by someone else -- that is, unless they're living off of their savings or active investments, then all of the value (money) they use is produced by someone else. (Yes? No?) Is that sustainable? Does that facilitate socialism?

No answers on my end. No arguments either; just giving you another course to cut into.

(Sorry for the hit-and-run. You posted some good stuff up there, a lot to ponder. Be back tomorrow.)

227

Thats why it is important to be able to buy insurance from a different State!Anthem raises price here in calif...we cancel and buy ins from Ohio.   Just like  people in the market for a new car shop at least 5 or more local Dealers for the best Price.

228 Great post. Except for a lot of it being wrong and off base. Everything after "In his weekly radio/web address, ..." This healthcare is a tough, complicated issue. I wonder what the wunderkinds at the CbreathPac festival had to say about it. So funny. I'm certain - don't know why - just something tips me off - that the vast majority of folks here would benefit hugely from, say rush limblow's (sp?) highly vaunted Hawaiian health care system. But I guess people just enjoy imagining things. Like they're really free-wheeling tycoons of some sort about to be run off to a gulag or something. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Life's calling. God bless.

229 McCrystal, every time I go to the doctor's office, every decade or so, I fill out the patient information. No heart disease, don't smoke, no allergies, no meds, etc. I don't even get colds. I don't want to be forced to buy insurance now, either. I already live around the poverty level and in NYC on top of it. Never had to ask the government or anyone for anything, and I would like them to stay the fuck out of my life. When I married my husband, they decided a year later he had the wrong kind of visa and must therefore be banned for 5 years. Our lawmakers are corrupt fucking idiots. The bureaucrats they hire are lazy and unhelpful. It gets worse and worse every year, and my children will be slaves at the mercy of a substandard educational system. Tell me I'm wrong.

230 And nothing prevents me from going to my doctor when I need to with a fistfull of cash, if say, I'm worried my sinus infection might be something bad. I have found my care is cheap, quick and effective.

I just feel that I have had few advantages in life, but I am at least healthy. If the government had their way, they would tax me for that, too.

231 Actually Tattoo, I can't say you're wrong on much of anything you just said. The issues, for a long time, have not been right/left or anything like that. Corruption, period, is at the heart of most of our real problems. Political corruption, across the spectrum. But really, we're dealing with spiritual and emotional corruption that is deep and profound. In other words, we're really in a lot of f-in trouble. Thirty years ago, I did follow up work for the Census. Good money but an unrelenting nightmare. Bureaucracies almost always are so, be they public or private. We had, to put it kindly, a substandard educational system then. I think that explains where we've been the last thirty years, regardless of whoever has been nominally in charge. Things are only worse now. Look at our TV, what passes for literature, the 'blogosphere' which really seems, at best, a meager evolution of sorts on the wit and wisdom of chat rooms. Again, you're right. But, and this might put me at odds with most at this place, I don't see anything on the horizon except different brands of hucksters, hustlers, and chuckleheads. Corruption, of all sorts, verily, nothing new under the sun. That's the over-riding and eternal issue. Buon viaggio e buona fortuna.

232

goy,

I agree with you that more ppl should pay out of pocket for their healthcare goods and services.

this portion of my post is sarcastic:

"but, but that would mean that lots of ppl couldn't buy insurance and would have to pay for goods and services out of their own pocket."

i think the only difference we may have is whether or not corporations are inherently evil.

I don't believe they are, I believe that government is (nesscessary but still evil, kinda like letting a crackhead friend or relative stay at your house, you know they are going to steal so you have to watch them every minute, about half of the public has forgotten that the Government is an addict)

233 Does anyone ever remember a president so willing to call-out people, corporations, and organizations like this guy does?  Past presidents have generally tried to steer clear of so much name calling.  Isn't there anyone is his bank of stooges who understands how uncouth he looks?

Really now, where is the uberintellectual that everybody talked about?  I never saw him before the election either. I guess they are saving that version for the last quarter.

234

"Flavius Julius" and "Tattoo De Plane" have to be the same person posting under two different names. The odds are astronomical that that there could be two people here who are that dense, obtuse , shallow and stupid.

 

235 Odds are our concerned casual observer is goy all pissed off that nobody took the bait. Some huevos you've got there, too, bitching to the Loo wee batons! and hair straightener spam.