April 06, 2010
— Ace I don't want to defend Obama, and, thankfully, I don't have to; I'm critical of his idiotic non-decision decision.
But, at the outset, I have to say it doesn't change a hell of a lot. On 11 September 2001, a terrorist group supported by the Islamofascist government of Afghanistan attacked United States civilians with what could be deemed a "nuclear-level" attack. I have read analyses that claimed the energy released by the bombing, in the form of collapsing buildings, reached the lower levels of a nuclear attack. Of course, a nuclear attack would have added that energy of falling buildings to its total energy, too; but it terms of death and destruction, certainly the attack was nuclear-like. If four bombs have ever managed to kill 2996 people in one attack, I don't know about it, and certainly this is nearly unprecedented if not completely so.
From what I gather, the Bush Administration put out the word that "all options" were on the table, and there was some leaking that nukes were being considered, but I doubt that was ever very serious. Within weeks we were planning a conventional attack. The reason given for setting the nuclear option aside was that the Taliban had nothing big enough to bomb with nukes, but that turned out to be not quite true: Certainly the forces gathered at Tora Bora could have been killed with a small nuclear attack (and likely bin Ladin as well).
But even in the face of such a horrific attack, a terrorist attack directed mostly at civilians, an attack that seemed to blur the boundaries between a conventional-level and nuclear level attack, we never seemed to seriously consider the nuclear option ourselves, and the only talk about it seemed to be for purposes of diplomacy and internal politics, bluffing our enemies and appeasing the large swaths of the American public that wanted irradiated blood.
Some argue that we needed to "preserve the ambiguity" about the use of nuclear weapons that has been maintained since the start of the Cold War. But that begs the question: Is there any genuine ambiguity about our actual policy? From what I can tell, we have a pure negotiating position, a pure bluff, that says, on paper, maybe we'll use them. Our actual policy is that we won't under virtually any circumstances. For there to be some "ambiguity" here, a number of foreign actors would have to believe the bluff, and I'm not sure any do.
Obama carved a special exception for Iran and North Korea. Do they believe Obama would ever nuke them under any circumstances? I don't think they do. So he continues maintaining a fiction which no one believes. I suppose this is to placate the right and national-security minded liberals. But I know for a fact Bush (and bloody-starved monster Dick Cheney) ruled out a nuclear counterstrike against Afghanistan, and I cannot believe Obama, the Downy Dove, would be even willing to have a serious cabinet debate over it.
Obama, on the other hand, is claiming that this is some sort of serious policy move. The way he will sell this to the left and the doves is some sort of substantial victory for the principle of no-first-use. But note, in almost the same breath, he denies that, noting this isn't such a big break with Bush policy; as usual, he's trying to have it both ways. For one audience, this is a substantial change and Obama should be praised for his courage; for another audience, this is pretty much a continuation of previous policy with some minor tweaks to the wording.
This argument reminds me of the dispute between Bush/Bolton and Obama and the Democrats over talking with Iran. I never cared if we talked with Iran. Talk is cheap. My problem was always that Obama was substituting "talk" for an actual policy which could plausibly change Iran's behavior -- which is to say, escalating coercion, beginning with a destabilizing gas embargo and escalating up, if necessary, to strikes on command and communications and Revolutionary Guards HQ's and nuclear sites.
But if it were just "talking" while those other real policies were being pursued? Who cares if we talk or not? The important thing is the stick, not the talk, whether it's hard talk or soft talk.
And for that reason I didn't really give a crap about the Bush/Bolton "policy" of not talking to Iran either. Whether we are fetishizing talking, or fetishizing not talking, we are still talking about talking, which is pointless, and not talking about action, which is the only plausible method to compel a rogue state to change its behavior.
I feel that both Bush/Bolton and Obama and the liberal Democrats were basically merchants dealing in human waste, but both trying to differentiate their stock in trade -- crap -- by talking up how much better their shit was from the other guy's. "Hey, our human waste has 33% more sulfur content!" "But wait -- our human excrement has 22% more nitrogen, and is therefore better for the environment!"
At the end of the day, you're both still peddling shit. I strain mightily to give a shit whether one pile of shit has more shitty sulfur in it or more shitty nitrogen. Neither side was discussing something non-shitty.
And so it is with this policy. At the end of the day, those who think that we should actually maybe really use nukes in the appropriate case (and on four days every week, I'm one of them) are still being sold some shit about either "strategic ambiguity!!!!" or "clarity of intention!!!," as if some words on piece of paper have much to do at all with our actual, settled, notorious policy of no-first-use.
But Obama will nonetheless continue his game of claiming this is merely a continuation of Bush's policy... except on those days, in front of the right audience, where he claims he's made a bold new commitment to not using nukes first and therefore created a "moral imperative" for other nations to make similar (meaningless) vows. He's clarified our policy on nukes, you see.
Except he hasn't. Even within his bold new piece of shit, he says that he won't use nukes to respond to a bio or chem attack... except if someone actually does attack us using such methods, he'll "reconsider" his policy.
That's "clarifying"? We won't use nukes in response to a bio or chem attack, but if you attack us with bio or chem weapons, we'll reconsider the policy and maybe we will use nukes after all?
When asked why Obama was so determined to focus on health care rather than the truly pressing issue of jobs and the economy, Kirsten Powers had a sensible answer-- because he can do something about health care. A legislator can always pass legislation. Now, the public doesn't want legislation -- they want jobs and a positive growth rate -- but legislating legislation is what legislators know how to do.
That made sense to me. Obama is hungry to have "accomplishments." He will not have any of the usual accomplishments of actual foreign policy victories and leaving the world a safer place than he found it. He will not have the big accomplishment of prosperity or economic security.
But he wants to fill out his resume, make it "look good" by making it longer, and so he is stacking the bullet-point list of "accomplishments" with a bunch of nonsense that isn't really accomplishing anything at all. "Health care reform" is his version of the resume-bullshit-padder "facilitated intercollegial communications" and "coordinated with various mission-statements."
Announcing a new non-policy with regard to nukes is his version of "interfaced with action-oriented directives in the Human Resources Policy manual."
Yeah-- but what did you actually do at your job, Mr. President? "I interfaced proactively with policy-rendering committees ."
The President's first job is to protect the American public and make them safe -- and if he can't make them actually safe, make them safer than they were. As he has all but announced his job is to be handmaiden to the Iranian nuke program, he fails in that first job. But hey -- he's facilitating various action-points and agenda-items in security-enhancing context.
The President's second job is to create the conditions under which growth and prosperity are likely, or at least possible. He has failed at that. But hey -- he's coordinating with action-managers to synergize proactively with health-care incentivizations.
When Iran gets the bomb -- which they will -- Obama will claim that by ruling out a first-strke (kinda sorta) he has thereby "strengthened" us and "protected" us by erecting a moral barrier to Iran's own use of nukes.
Oh, sure-- perhaps now we are now threatened by actual nukes detonating in America, or Israel, or in our big bases in Kuwait or Diego Garcia. But think, Obama will say, of how much more danger we would have been in had I not signed a piece a paper saying we probably wouldn't use nukes first, unless we really felt like it!
Since he can't -- or at least won't -- actually do his job, he'll come up with job-like accomplishments to tout in 2012.
Let a smile be your nuclear umbrella, as they say.
Posted by: Ace at
10:44 AM
| Comments (145)
Post contains 1559 words, total size 9 kb.
Posted by: conscious and heading for the bomb shelter at April 06, 2010 10:47 AM (YVZlY)
The only thing missing from Obama's policy-shift announcement is how it will help our economy and create jobs and cut costs.
Because everything Obama & the Democrats do is good for the economy, creates jobs, and cuts costs.
Posted by: Mannix at April 06, 2010 10:50 AM (nChnP)
Plus a few mutants, of course.
Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 10:50 AM (BFqyO)
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 10:52 AM (gofDd)
Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (i6ROy)
Posted by: joncelli at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (RD7QR)
So long Taiwan. It was nice knowing you as a free republic.
Posted by: bergerbilder at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (Sn1SJ)
Oh wait, that's Obama's baseball pitch.
Posted by: wtfci at April 06, 2010 10:54 AM (+zo63)
He will not have any of the usual accomplishments of actual foreign policy victories...
You know, accomplishments in foreign affairs often go unnoticed, un-praised, and un-felt. Especially today with how uninformed and ignorant the American people are. So maybe Obama figures he shouldn't even bother and, as you say, stick to stuff he can do and stuff people will notice.
Posted by: Mannix at April 06, 2010 10:54 AM (nChnP)
ABORT! ABORT!
Posted by: Chicago Annenberg Challenge at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (+zo63)
Posted by: joncelli at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (RD7QR)
That's an interesting theory ace but somehow I don't think that taking nukes off the table after one of our cities is attacked by anthrax is going to work for him as a campaign slogan. I can't see the following bumper sticker gaining much traction.
Destroy and American City! First one Free!
Posted by: robtr at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (fwSHf)
Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (i6ROy)
Hey, all those years of majorly eggheaded thought that went into nuclear deterrence planning is old and tired.
Gimme a mop! Anybody got a mop?? Somebody gotta mop.
Posted by: Barky Obonga at April 06, 2010 10:56 AM (BFqyO)
It's like walking into a gang infested neighborhood loaded with cash and telling them you're unarmed.
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 02:52 PM (gofDd)
I'm missing your point...
Posted by: Barack "The Pussy Appeaser" Obama at April 06, 2010 10:57 AM (YVZlY)
Posted by: Bill R. at April 06, 2010 10:58 AM (EhlQq)
And no, the attack on the WTC was nothing like a nuclear blast. A nuclear blast at the site of the WTC would have produced a crater 1000 yards wide and a total destruction blast zone for a 5 mile radius.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 10:59 AM (QrA9E)
Posted by: Al "clueless" Gore at April 06, 2010 10:59 AM (2+9Yx)
Let a smile be your nuclear umbrella, as they say.
That's just fucking brilliant, really. Too bad we don't have SAC anymore - that would look so cool as the motto on the SAC sheild, painted on the side of a B-52, with LeMay standing next to it chomping on a big nasty cigar.
Posted by: sherlock at April 06, 2010 10:59 AM (ZrS0c)
Posted by: Trimegistus at April 06, 2010 11:00 AM (keqaN)
I'm thinking that there isn't a whole lot of deep thinking going on in the White House. It all seems to be very simple, quintessential knee-jerk liberalism.
And that is what is so terrifying.
Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 11:01 AM (BFqyO)
Posted by: liontooth at April 06, 2010 11:01 AM (9wLy+)
To my friendly enemies...
If you like your nuclear weapons, you can keep you nuclear weapons. As for us, not so much.
Posted by: Barack "Fucking Insane" Obama at April 06, 2010 11:03 AM (YVZlY)
If they do it will miss because the Navy is all PC now. Womens on the subs, no smoking, and plenty o' same sex sex without worry.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 11:04 AM (QrA9E)
Yeah-- but what did you actually do at your job, Mr. President? "I interfaced proactively with policy-rendering committees ."
The mind of a lib academic.
Let a smile be your nuclear umbrella, as they say.
This prhase is awesome, but I prefer the Blade of Olympus to be my "nuclear umbrella"..ella...ella..eh...eh...eh.
Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) at April 06, 2010 11:05 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: The Bear at April 06, 2010 11:06 AM (fwSHf)
Really. I am.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at April 06, 2010 11:06 AM (2PTT7)
Posted by: Drillanwr at April 06, 2010 11:07 AM (1kwr2)
"
That's only for actual enemies, like conservatives and Israel.
Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 06, 2010 11:08 AM (mR7mk)
True but it also goes towards credibility. If Bush had announced we would no longer use nuclear weapons in retaliation, would anyone have believed it? And even if they did, they probably wouldn't test him on it.
That Obama is announcing this is more, I suppose, credible and I'm betting one or more of our many enemies would be willing to test just how far they can go before they get a response. Hell, look at teh Won's response to the Christmas Day bomber. It wasn't even a blip in his day. (Although if DC were hit, that might make them take notice.) If something on a 9/11 scale or bigger hits, teh won is going to be fetal under his desk in the Oval Office.
Or I could be completely wrong and at the first major provocation teh Won is going to hit the red button.
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:08 AM (gofDd)
35 What happened to Obama's "If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun"?
That's only for domestic issues, not foreign. Foreign policy is: "If they Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bow".
Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) at April 06, 2010 11:08 AM (9hSKh)
Posted by: ErikW at April 06, 2010 11:09 AM (fFCLX)
Plus a few mutants, of course.
Trust me, there are already plenty of mutants there now.
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:10 AM (qzoN5)
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:10 AM (gofDd)
Posted by: Vet_Missing_Parts at April 06, 2010 11:10 AM (MCHyX)
Barack is like Kirk Douglas in the commie crapfest "Lonely are the Brave", who gets his ass kicked in a bar fight by a one armed man after he promises to only use one arm himself, to make it fair.
Posted by: Atomic Roach at April 06, 2010 11:11 AM (Oxen1)
FU52
Posted by: mpfs at April 06, 2010 11:12 AM (iYbLN)
This happened: http://bit.ly/dkZwUI
Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 11:12 AM (BFqyO)
Get some photos taken of his "concern" face, read a few platitudes off the TOTUS, go shoot some hoops, and send Biden out for cheeseburgers. Wookiee will buy a new sexy cocktail dress for the memorial service.
Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 06, 2010 11:12 AM (mR7mk)
I suppose, but this to me is like that talk/not-talk fight, where frankly, sure, maybe I can see that not-talking is 1% better than the other policy, but both suck ass, so honestly, I have trouble getting jazzed about somethinmg that sucks 1% less.
If you want to use nukes, the takeaway is that the US will never use nukes except in response to a direct nuclear attack. Yes, I suppose it's better to maintain that maybe we would use them *on paper,* but it's still just an empty threat.
Better an empty threat than no threat at all, I guess, but I really cannot gin up a lot of passion over either.
Seriously?
The time we did use them was not in response to a direct nuclear attack.
Posted by: s☺mej☼e at April 06, 2010 11:14 AM (4y0YU)
NOTHING. He could care less about the citizens of this country. He only loves himself.
Posted by: mpfs at April 06, 2010 11:16 AM (iYbLN)
You forgot the belt. The Wookie will need a new belt for the incredibly tasteless frock she will wear.
Posted by: mpfs at April 06, 2010 11:17 AM (iYbLN)
So if there's a coordinated chemical attack in the NYC subway, Obama's response will be what?
Our response will be to wonder what we did to piss them off so badly.
Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 11:17 AM (BFqyO)
Posted by: mshad at April 06, 2010 11:17 AM (FcLua)
Re-elect Obama 2012: Effective execution in culpability transference!
Posted by: FeuerPferd at April 06, 2010 11:18 AM (cQyWA)
Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 06, 2010 11:20 AM (mR7mk)
Really? Cause Little Boy killed at least 100,000. And Fat Man killed at least 60,000. (And I have no problem with that, so spare me that shit.) But you want to claim 2996 dead was a "nuclear-level" attack, and you can't recall a bomb ever doing that much damage? Fucking retard. Way to go, Ace.
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:25 AM (NNdl8)
Ace ...
wait until the text is release before claiming it doesn't change anything ... the Russians are claiming it limits our DELIVERY vehicles ... not just the bombs ...
You know those silly old delivery vehicles that drop old school iron bombs or new school cruise missles as well as nukes ...
if what the Russians are claiming is true then when rogue nation A hits us with non nuke WMD's we may not have enough assets to hit them back with given our ongoing Iraq and Afghan activites ...
notice how the 2 recent Obama initiatives fit nicely together ...
Tough guy Obama: We'll smash you with conventional bombs if you gas us or bug us ...
Real World Obama: Gee, we negotiated our delivery vehicles away to the Russians for some magic beans ... Well, THE NEXT TIME you hit us we'll really get mad and then we'll free up some bombers from Afghan or Iraq to hit you back, maybe ...
Posted by: Jeff at April 06, 2010 11:29 AM (QdGwf)
Posted by: cbcvb at April 06, 2010 11:30 AM (jSWOe)
Posted by: Albus at April 06, 2010 11:30 AM (OaRvZ)
It's asinine really, to project such tremendous weakness when your enemies and allies both already think your incredibly weak. It will no doubt simply cause enemies of the United States to become emboldened as they realize that despite our tremendous military might and superiority we completely lack the will or resolve to use it effectively.
I'm sure the Taliban and various terror groups are laughing their asses off right now, bragging to anyone that will listen how they are bringing the great United States to it's knees because our leaders are too weak to follow through on what must be done.
So no, the actually policy "change" itself isn't really my concern so much as the clear cut message it sends to all of those who would wish us harm. Someday the US needs to get over this "we can't be the bully" attitude and realize that if we are going to go to war, for whatever reason, we have to do it all out.
No more of this half measure, limited response bullshit. If were going to invade Afghanistan, then by God we hit them like their is no tomorrow, because by the time were through there should be no tomorrow for our enemies.
No more of this mamby pamby crap, roll in there with everything we have and if necessary turn the entire fucking place into a parking lot. The best security our troops have is massive, overwhelming force. Every time you cut down on that you put our boy's lives at risk, and I'm sorry but that's simply unacceptable.
If as a President you don't have the stomach for it, then pull our boys out completely. Otherwise take off the leash. No more telegraphing strikes or any of that crap. You hit the enemy fast and as hard as you possibly can. If collateral damage can be minimized, great, but that should never be your primary concern.
Your primary concern should always be for the brave soldiers you command, period. Everything else is a distant 3rd or 4th at best. So our military "policy" should be simple. We don't take options of the table, ever. We will respond as we see fit to any attack.
If you as a sovereign nation ignore or support such attacks, then you are responsible for such attacks just as if these terrorists are your armed forces. Turning a blind eye to such things or worse yet actively supporting them is an act of war. If you hit one of my cities then by God I do whatever I think is necessary to make sure another one won't get hit. If that means dropping a few dozen megatons and vaporizing your worthless little shit bag country so be it. Yes, I feel bad for your citizenry, after all it's not their fault directly. But since you represent them as a government they have two choices, throw your ass out or face the full force of a major retaliation for the worthless despots they've left in power all these years.
Rules of Engagement? If you're in a war zone your rule is to bring you and your unit back alive.
Nuclear proliferation? Fuck you. Your not entitled to the bomb. No such thing as a level playing field there. If you continue to try to develop a weapon of mass destruction then this too is considered an act of war, because the bomb really only has one use and we all know why you want one.
No more of this mamby pamby dictators are just as good as us routine. No, if your a filthy little despot or a bunch of religious fanatics bent on world domination then we take you out long before you ever get close to developing a working nuke, and if the UN or anybody else bitches about it then fuck you we pull our funding. Go have your little swaries where you denounce the US and celebrate the worlds Despots somewhere else. I here Rwanda is nice this time of year.
Posted by: StuckOnStupid at April 06, 2010 11:33 AM (e8T35)
While I'm looking that up, why don't you look up where Obama ever advocated unilateral disarmament. And the constitution defines what constitutes treason. Look that up too.
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:33 AM (NNdl8)
In any instance where the US would even consider using a nuclear response, I firmly expect Obama to issue a strongly-worded apology followed by a clear illustration of why Bush is at fault for the circumstance leading up to our disagreement. Followed by liberal application of a reset button to prevent future misunderstandings.
That's why I'm checking the El Presedente for Life button on the 2012 ballot.
Posted by: Mike at April 06, 2010 11:34 AM (ncMt3)
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:34 AM (qzoN5)
Or I could be completely wrong and at the first major provocation teh Won is going to hit the red button. Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 03:08 PM (gofDd)
He's going to hit Barney Frank's squeak hole?
Posted by: Old Hippie Vet at April 06, 2010 11:34 AM (3IZGh)
Posted by: Drillanwr at April 06, 2010 11:36 AM (1kwr2)
I don't see how this hurts America anymore, since those who would do us harm would have assumed that Obama didn't have the stones to use a nuke, anyway. He has no intention of every using nukes, regardless of the situation.
Posted by: taylork at April 06, 2010 11:37 AM (0Hn5w)
Now that this comes to life with regards to Obama and the nukes (or defense plan), is there any wonder our new ROEs in Afghan can be any different?
"Yo, terrorrists, hide out amongst the women and children, and we won't shoot at ya...."
Posted by: always right at April 06, 2010 11:38 AM (7GfKM)
Posted by: fightobama at April 06, 2010 11:38 AM (6IV8T)
That's not new. That's pretty much what we have already.
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:40 AM (qzoN5)
Show me where someone else made that point. Really. Maybe I missed it. But I don't see anyone else calling Ace out on his obvious bullshit. There have been two nuclear attacks in all of history. And 9/11, horrible as it was, didn't come close to matching their death toll. So this "nuclear-level attack" business is crap.
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:40 AM (NNdl8)
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:43 AM (gofDd)
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:45 AM (gofDd)
He was talking about crater size, not death toll. But, yeah, Ace's post is stupid for that reason too.
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:47 AM (NNdl8)
That being said I would have like to have seen a better response.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 11:50 AM (QrA9E)
He's going to hit Barney Frank's squeak hole?
I'd hit it like Fat Man over Nagasaki, IYKWIMAITYD!!!
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:50 AM (fFCLX)
Posted by: Jean at April 06, 2010 11:51 AM (tTdaQ)
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3 Doing something you disagree with isn't treason. I didn't like when the kos kids accused Bush of treason, and I don't like this either. That kind of reckless accusation is ... I obviously won't say "treasonous"... but I will call it disloyal and unpatriotic.
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:51 AM (NNdl8)
Chemical weapons are nasty but by and large they can't get a large geographical area. Biologicals, on the other hand, already exist and are already lethal. They're cheaper than nukes, self-replicating in some cases, and people are their delivery system. Get someone with subclinical smallpox on a commercial jetliner and you've just created a real problem for the US. Almost as bad is to walk through a field in Africa destroyed by the Ug99 wheat rust and then take a trip from Kansas to Alberta in the same boots. You wouldn't kill anyone directly, but months later when the US is fighting a raging wheat rust and losing 30-50% of our crop, people will most certainly starve somewhere in the world.
The calculus has changed in that as a potential adversary I would not invest in a nuclear infrastructure. It's huge, expensive, visible from space and eminently targetable. I would spend my time and a fraction of the money on a biological weapons lab -- because there's no guaranteed response to that.
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 11:51 AM (iXV5s)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 06, 2010 11:52 AM (I1/U/)
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:53 AM (NNdl8)
Whoa. Careful there, deemer. Bambi is dumb enough without making this stretch, Stretch Armstrong. Two buildings does not a nuclear attack make.
Bambi's a dumbass all on his own. The bad actors of the world with either think he's lying, in which case their behavior won't change, or they'll think he's incredibly, stupidly naive, and telling the truth, in which case they be more likely (how ever little that is) to attack. It didn't work for Neville Chamberlain, but by God it'll work for Neville Obama.
Posted by: FUBAR at April 06, 2010 11:53 AM (1fanL)
Really?
Then why do we even have the damn things?
Personally, I'd use one every now and again, just to remind everyone that you just never know.
Posted by: tsj017 at April 06, 2010 11:54 AM (4YUWF)
Don't you play Resident Evil? WE just need a team of super agents to defeat it and all we'll lose is a poorly named city..
Posted by: taylork at April 06, 2010 11:54 AM (0Hn5w)
Well, considering the war that the Obamaster has waged on our economy, our status as a world power, and our self respect as a nation, who knows, there just might be a case here.
Posted by: StuckOnStupid at April 06, 2010 11:55 AM (e8T35)
So what is the specific meaning?
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:57 AM (qzoN5)
Rotfl.. flattering, but I don't really want the job.
Posted by: StuckOnStupid at April 06, 2010 11:57 AM (e8T35)
Posted by: Jean at April 06, 2010 11:57 AM (OlnxK)
Why are you here? Seriously. If we're too dumb and stupid for you, why bother? Do you think you're changing hearts and minds here? What purpose do you have to come around and think you're fucking morally superior here? And yeah, somehow I think pretty much giving Iran free reign to whatever it damn well wants to do qualifies as aid and comfort. You can qualify you didn't like when the kos kids did it but I don't fucking believe you. I'm sure you cheered them on. So fuck off, asshole. If the Left, and it's not just the Kos Kids, can call Bush a treasonous asshole, turnabout is fair play. Obama is a traitor. So. There.
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:58 AM (gofDd)
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 03:57 PM (qzoN5)
Warm milk and a blankie.
Posted by: FUBAR at April 06, 2010 11:59 AM (1fanL)
Posted by: Jean at April 06, 2010 12:00 PM (vb5IK)
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 04:00 PM (qzoN5)
And there's no predicting. Sometimes soft and warm, some times, hard and razor-sharp. I'll bet it keeps things spicy in her relationships. I mean, the real-life ones.
Posted by: FUBAR at April 06, 2010 12:02 PM (1fanL)
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 12:06 PM (gofDd)
Every once in awhile a comment here will give a nice, juicy realization. That comment is one of them.
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 06, 2010 12:09 PM (I1/U/)
Project Bachus was a 1999 Defense Threat Reduction Agency experiment to a) see if they could build a 'clandestine' bioweapons lab from off-the-shelf components, and b) operate the thing and see if they could detect it with remote sensing.
They announced that a) was successful. For under a million dollars they built a lab that made Bacillus thurigensis, a bacterium used as a benign biopesticide. The reason this is important is that if you can grow B. thurigensis you can grow its much nastier cousin, B. anthracis, the spores of which cause anthrax.
As to b), they have not for national security reasons disclosed if they could detect that the lab was operating. Chances are pretty good that given the relatively low heat, power draw and other signatures that make a bioweapons lab not much different than a commercial bakery or hospital laboratory, they weren't able to pick it out from background.
Anthrax is nasty, but it's not self-propagating. Other bioweapons, like tularemia and various viruses are self-propagating, including the 1918 H1N1 influenza, the genome of which has thoughtfully been published. Researchers have taken H1N1 strains and added some 1918 genes for experimental purposes, it's as lethal as ever.
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 12:09 PM (iXV5s)
Why are you here? Seriously. If we're too dumb and stupid for you, why bother?
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 03:58 PM (gofDd)
I suppose when one is a socially maladjusted psychopath, one must get their kicks where ever they can find it. Unfortunately for us, the S.S. Asshat seems to have dropped anchor in this sunny little corner of the intertubes.
Posted by: ErikW at April 06, 2010 12:11 PM (fFCLX)
We should sink it with a nuclear torpedo.
Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 12:13 PM (gofDd)
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:13 PM (qzoN5)
Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:14 PM (VDgKF)
Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:15 PM (VDgKF)
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 12:15 PM (QrA9E)
Posted by: Damn Skippy at April 06, 2010 12:17 PM (VDgKF)
Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 12:17 PM (i6ROy)
I will second the 'lackwit' statement for both Vic and Paulie. Ace is correct.
I'll wait while you read 'Physics for Future Presidents' by Richard Muller. You can get it on Amazon.
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 12:18 PM (iXV5s)
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 03:51 PM (NNdl
yeah sure you didn't. you lying fuck. by the way, I thought that dissent was patriotic? guess that's one more do as we say, not as we do, you liberal fascists are famous for right? go fuck yourself sideways, in the squeakhole with a fresh pineapple you useless shit.
Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Professional Debate Team at April 06, 2010 12:19 PM (erIg9)
Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:19 PM (VDgKF)
Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:23 PM (VDgKF)
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:24 PM (qzoN5)
Posted by: catmman at April 06, 2010 12:24 PM (BCSpK)
But I actually do think that our long-standing ambiguity policy (as opposed to this muddled confusion from Barry) is the best one. You gotta remember that many/most of our enemies are really irrational. They judge by their own standards of behavior. They'd use nukes, so they assume we would, too. (Which we might.) Obama thinks everyone has the same creased pants and cool temperament that he's credited with having.
Posted by: Y-not at April 06, 2010 12:26 PM (Kn9r7)
I might surprise you since I had been trained on them largely in the Navy. But since Ace's reference was to the WTC I was comparing it to a similar strike with a nuke at or near ground level. OI never said a word about Hiroshima.
And if you do do an air burst yes you may not get a crater, but you get a larger zone of destruction. And IF you think that the planes crashing into the WTC is the same as if being hit by a 10 or 15 MT weapon you are the one who knows nothing about weapons.
So Mr. idiot you can kiss my lackwit ass.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 12:26 PM (QrA9E)
Posted by: Nickie Goomba at April 06, 2010 12:26 PM (6lRYQ)
And while you're kissing my ass, can I suck your cock?
Posted by: Vick at April 06, 2010 12:27 PM (VDgKF)
I doubt Obama gave it that much thought.
Posted by: taylork at April 06, 2010 12:28 PM (0Hn5w)
The good news - this is only a "policy", easily changed when Oblather gets shown the door.
The new "treaty" with Russia is just that - a treaty which requires the Senate. IF the Senate signs off on this POS, we've got major problems. IF the GOP had a functioning neuron, they would press for a Senate vote on this before the 2010 elections. Get everyone on the record.
Posted by: MDr VB1.0 CS1st at April 06, 2010 12:29 PM (ucq49)
The government of Iran, in its current form, attacked a US embassy, launched mutiple terrorist attacks, attacked ships in the straits of Hormuz and has furnished weapons and training to terrorists in both Iraq and Afghanistan. These are acts of war. Whether we choose to officially declare war, react without declaring hostilities, or do nothing are all options. But the fact remains that the current Iranian government has engaged in arggresive acts against American forces, installations and civilians.
Aid and comfort? It's a plausible assertion, however, I would not attribute to malice what can be better explained by stupidity.
Posted by: Blue Hen at April 06, 2010 12:30 PM (R2fpr)
They think if you say something, you can make it so.
I guarantee you if Somalia were to invade Kenya, Obama'd turn Mogadishu into glass. He has his priorities.
Posted by: AmishDude at April 06, 2010 12:33 PM (T0NGe)
Posted by: GhostShip at April 06, 2010 12:47 PM (oJebf)
Oh hell no. They'd pass it, then we'd be stuck with it.
Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:48 PM (qzoN5)
Posted by: lowfibass at April 06, 2010 01:00 PM (T1ZAZ)
Yeah, but you missed the point that it was an inside job done by Bush/Cheney. Therefore using nukes would have been a no no.
Posted by: kansas at April 06, 2010 01:21 PM (8i4ik)
Congratulations on your training, and thanks for your service.
I think you will agree with me that "lower levels of nuclear attack" and "10-15 MT" are nowhere near the same concepts. What you're discussing is among the largest nuclear weapons ever fielded. What Ace is discussing is a scale of destruction consistent with the smallest.
The largest deployed ICBM warhead was a 24MT warhead on some models of the SS-18. The largest warhead deployed on a US missile was the Titan-II warhead, a 9MT bomb. A few air-dropped bombs were in that class, but pretty much nobody fields a weapon these days with yield more than a megaton, because a) we invented MIRVs, which are much more efficient at incinerating cities than a single large bomb (i.e., the Poseidon carried up to ten MIRVs with 50kT warheads, because toasting Moscow or Kiev with 10 of those spreads the rads around better than one 1MT bomb), and b) we got accuracy to the point where our missiles became counter-force instead of blatantly counter-population.
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 02:03 PM (iXV5s)
What do you mean "we", kimosabe?
Posted by: tonto the conservative at April 06, 2010 02:13 PM (KdA1d)
"You can't hug sheep with nuclear arms" surtitled over the Daisy the Sheep scene from Woody Allen's Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex but Were Afraid To Ask.
Posted by: obama's reelection team at April 06, 2010 02:19 PM (KdA1d)
What we trained on in the 70s was a 20MT burst at 1K meters on the ocean.
BTW, those very small weapons are the result of massive engineering and testing. The current crop of terrorists are not likely to have that.
But in any case, a plane crashing into the WTC is not the same as even a 15KT device doing the same.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 02:27 PM (QrA9E)
You were trained AGAINST a 20MT bomb (for damage control, etc.) but the US Navy never fielded a weapon like that, that expectation is for one of those Tu-95s or Tu-195s that would sniff around fleets as naval patrol vessels to suddenly drop a big-ass nuke on your carrier (or the carrier you were protecting).
And I completely agree about the overstated threat of the "backpack nuke". They do exist, but they're high-speed low-drag affairs like you say, they use the minimum amount of plutonium and the minimum amount of explosive to compress the plutonium. I don't expect that even the arms makers in Peshawar, who can make a H&K G3 clone out of a box of ballpoint pens and an old bicycle could cobble together one. The bang from one of those is really, really small in nuclear terms -- like I said (and you can Google "W54 warhead" yourself) the yield ranges UP to 1kT (probably with D-T boosting), and as low as 10 tons (the unboosted primary). It's a lot if you're standing next to it, but even a 1kT bomb isn't all that big. It would devastate several square blocks -- about the size of the WTC footprint.
There's video of it at sonicbomb.com, you can get to it from the Wikipedia site for 'Little Feller(nuclear tests)', and a 17 minute film about Operation Ivy Flats (the aboveground nuclear test) at the same site.
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 02:51 PM (iXV5s)
What about our treaty commitments, where an "attack against one is an attack against all"?
Haven't we just told the Taiwanese that we WON'T incinerate the Chicoms if they were to attack the island? Where's the deterrent?
If anyone can find a clip of that Kirk Douglas movie and get it up on YouTube, I bet it would go viral very quickly.
Posted by: effinayright at April 06, 2010 02:59 PM (3sB5l)
Touché!
Posted by: effinayright at April 06, 2010 03:00 PM (3sB5l)
I was under the impression (memory only) that the Ivy flats tests were in the 6 to 10 MT range. In fact, after the original tests in WWII I though most of the tests were in the MT range. In fact, I recall hearing about one "accident" in the pacific which was supposed to be 6MT and it turned out to be be 15MT and killed a bunch of people who were outside the exclusion zone.
We worked under an assumption that if we were attacked by either a missile or a bomb it would be in the 10 to 20 MT range and pray that it was over a 1000m away.
We assumed torpedoes would be smaller but non-survivable by us or the launching submarine.
As far as adding in the "energy" of the falling buildings I think that is BS and not the same comparison. If you set off a nuke there you would have a whole lot more falling buildings you could add the energy level to the total.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 03:00 PM (QrA9E)
Operation Ivy Flats was a different test in 1961, and it was a test of the 'baby' nuke that was part of the M388 Davy Crockett recoilless rifle. The yield on that one was 10 tons, or .01 kT.
The other one you're remembering was Operation Castle Romeo. They used lithium deuteride as a solid source for the deuterium for the second, thermonuclear stage of the bomb (the fusion part), without realizing that lithium would contribute to the fusion part of the nuclear detonation and magnify the yield well beyond design limits. It was supposed to be a 6MT test, the yield was 15MT and they nearly fried the observers. That was the test where the 'Lucky Dragon', a Japanese fishing trawler, was downwind and got soaked with fallout.
Steven Block is an applied physics professor at Stanford, he calculates that the energy from the burning kerosene from both planes was equivalent to 1,000 tons of TNT -- 1 kiloton. There is actually more energy stored in kerosene than in C4 for equivalent weight, the difference is that C4 gives off its energy in milliseconds while kerosene has to burn for a while.
The 'Physics for Future Presidents' book is enlightening in this regard. I have a lot less fear of a 'dirty bomb' and a lot greater fear of masses of kerosene after reading the book.
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 03:14 PM (iXV5s)
I have never had a fear of a dirty bomb. That is the biggest over-hyped pile of crap that has ever been foisted off on the public.
A dirty bomb is nothing more than them gathering up some kind of contaminated material and putting it in a bomb. They sure as hell aren't going to get anything very "hot" because it will kill them putting it together. And even if they did get something hot it would only spread as far as the bomb would spread it.
Of course I worked in nuclear power for 30 years and am an expert on that kind of shit so it doesn't scare me. I have actually been in a 200 Rem field. You just don't hang around long gaping at shit.
Being in Operations I was also trained in the fire brigade so I am not overly scared of kerosene either. The problem they had in NYC was that it burned uncontrolled for hours before collapsing due to failure of the metal clips holding the floors up.
I suspect that if they had crashed those jets into the Empire State Building that they would not have collapsed due to differences in construction. As a matter of fact IIANM a B-25 crashed into the Empire State Building in WWII.
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 03:27 PM (QrA9E)
Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 03:38 PM (QrA9E)
I'm a radiologist and we hope to never get anywhere near 200 rem. I can't speak for the cardiologists, some of them think the fluoro pedal is footrest.
A nuclear weapon is really just the most efficient method of heating and displacing air. The radiation will be a bother for a while, but it will dissipate like everything else. The 'dirty bomb' is mostly a scare for people who don't understand that there is already a 20% lifetime incidence of malignancy that you buy into simply by being born. Picking up an increased incidence of malignancy against that normal level of malignancy is pretty difficult, with the exception of a few tumors (thyroid, leukemia for those exposed to the blast or concentrated fallout). Having been to both Hiroshima and Detroit, I have to say that Hiroshima is in much better condition 65 years later.
What do you think about Yucca Mountain? I hope that if Harry Reid is ushered to his well-deserved retirement we might actually have a nuclear repository. Muller goes into detail on how safe it really has to be, we really don't have to design it to last 10,000 years because in 1000 years the fuel will decay down to the same background radiation as the ore it came from. Personally, I think we should reprocess that stuff and re-use any of the fissile material. There is a lot of uranium in the world, but it's neither easy nor cheap to refine. There's plenty of fissile material left in all those fuel rods sitting in a hundred or so containment ponds that's not doing anyone any good. I mean, if the French can do it...
Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 03:39 PM (iXV5s)
One aspect that some of y'all missed is that you don't use nuclear retaliation because someone used a big weapon on you - you use it because they have a big target. Nukes were considered for Afghanistan in 2001, but there were no targets big enough to justify one. There was enough problem finding targets for conventional munitions.
I'd say this is another example of the Pres'ent openly denying the philosophical basis for Bush Administration policy, and then continuing the same actions without any philosophical or legal justification. Weak leaders like the Pres'ent will use whatever means they have when backed into a corner, regardless of policy.
Posted by: Penultimatum at April 06, 2010 05:28 PM (CIKgX)
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 07, 2010 06:02 AM (NNdl8)
Your buddy Ace seems real interested in shit I post on other sites. I think you scared it, Rum. Been awfully quiet since the stompin'. And I'm still waiting on its specific definition of aid and comfort.
So, you guys tell me to leave then ask me to come back and answer questions. OK, the U.S. constitution states: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." The phrase "aid and comfort" derives from the English Treason Act of 1351. Under English law, there were five forms of high treason, but the U.S. only adopted two of them: waging war and aid and comfort. The meaning of the latter form of treason in U.S. law was explained by the Supreme Court in Cramer v. United States, 325 U.S. 1 (1945)(Jackson, J.):
"Thus the crime of treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy; and rendering him aid and comfort. A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country's policy or interest, but so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions, which do aid and comfort the enemy- making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength- but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason."
So "pretty much giving Iran free reign to whatever it damn well wants" does not qualify. There has to be a proven, specific intent to betray the United States. Your argument is basically just Obama committed treason by not bombing Iran yet, and it's a really stupid argument.
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 07, 2010 06:24 AM (NNdl8)
Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 07, 2010 06:26 AM (NNdl8)
Posted by: wholesaledunk at October 05, 2010 05:48 PM (zSZW9)
Posted by: aziz at May 04, 2011 10:35 AM (mQ7gk)
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Nuclear Tuesday continues!
Posted by: Mannix at April 06, 2010 10:46 AM (nChnP)