April 06, 2010

Obama's No-Nukes Policy: Hungry for "Accomplishments"
— Ace

I don't want to defend Obama, and, thankfully, I don't have to; I'm critical of his idiotic non-decision decision.

But, at the outset, I have to say it doesn't change a hell of a lot. On 11 September 2001, a terrorist group supported by the Islamofascist government of Afghanistan attacked United States civilians with what could be deemed a "nuclear-level" attack. I have read analyses that claimed the energy released by the bombing, in the form of collapsing buildings, reached the lower levels of a nuclear attack. Of course, a nuclear attack would have added that energy of falling buildings to its total energy, too; but it terms of death and destruction, certainly the attack was nuclear-like. If four bombs have ever managed to kill 2996 people in one attack, I don't know about it, and certainly this is nearly unprecedented if not completely so.

From what I gather, the Bush Administration put out the word that "all options" were on the table, and there was some leaking that nukes were being considered, but I doubt that was ever very serious. Within weeks we were planning a conventional attack. The reason given for setting the nuclear option aside was that the Taliban had nothing big enough to bomb with nukes, but that turned out to be not quite true: Certainly the forces gathered at Tora Bora could have been killed with a small nuclear attack (and likely bin Ladin as well).

But even in the face of such a horrific attack, a terrorist attack directed mostly at civilians, an attack that seemed to blur the boundaries between a conventional-level and nuclear level attack, we never seemed to seriously consider the nuclear option ourselves, and the only talk about it seemed to be for purposes of diplomacy and internal politics, bluffing our enemies and appeasing the large swaths of the American public that wanted irradiated blood.

Some argue that we needed to "preserve the ambiguity" about the use of nuclear weapons that has been maintained since the start of the Cold War. But that begs the question: Is there any genuine ambiguity about our actual policy? From what I can tell, we have a pure negotiating position, a pure bluff, that says, on paper, maybe we'll use them. Our actual policy is that we won't under virtually any circumstances. For there to be some "ambiguity" here, a number of foreign actors would have to believe the bluff, and I'm not sure any do.

Obama carved a special exception for Iran and North Korea. Do they believe Obama would ever nuke them under any circumstances? I don't think they do. So he continues maintaining a fiction which no one believes. I suppose this is to placate the right and national-security minded liberals. But I know for a fact Bush (and bloody-starved monster Dick Cheney) ruled out a nuclear counterstrike against Afghanistan, and I cannot believe Obama, the Downy Dove, would be even willing to have a serious cabinet debate over it.

Obama, on the other hand, is claiming that this is some sort of serious policy move. The way he will sell this to the left and the doves is some sort of substantial victory for the principle of no-first-use. But note, in almost the same breath, he denies that, noting this isn't such a big break with Bush policy; as usual, he's trying to have it both ways. For one audience, this is a substantial change and Obama should be praised for his courage; for another audience, this is pretty much a continuation of previous policy with some minor tweaks to the wording.

This argument reminds me of the dispute between Bush/Bolton and Obama and the Democrats over talking with Iran. I never cared if we talked with Iran. Talk is cheap. My problem was always that Obama was substituting "talk" for an actual policy which could plausibly change Iran's behavior -- which is to say, escalating coercion, beginning with a destabilizing gas embargo and escalating up, if necessary, to strikes on command and communications and Revolutionary Guards HQ's and nuclear sites.

But if it were just "talking" while those other real policies were being pursued? Who cares if we talk or not? The important thing is the stick, not the talk, whether it's hard talk or soft talk.

And for that reason I didn't really give a crap about the Bush/Bolton "policy" of not talking to Iran either. Whether we are fetishizing talking, or fetishizing not talking, we are still talking about talking, which is pointless, and not talking about action, which is the only plausible method to compel a rogue state to change its behavior.

I feel that both Bush/Bolton and Obama and the liberal Democrats were basically merchants dealing in human waste, but both trying to differentiate their stock in trade -- crap -- by talking up how much better their shit was from the other guy's. "Hey, our human waste has 33% more sulfur content!" "But wait -- our human excrement has 22% more nitrogen, and is therefore better for the environment!"

At the end of the day, you're both still peddling shit. I strain mightily to give a shit whether one pile of shit has more shitty sulfur in it or more shitty nitrogen. Neither side was discussing something non-shitty.

And so it is with this policy. At the end of the day, those who think that we should actually maybe really use nukes in the appropriate case (and on four days every week, I'm one of them) are still being sold some shit about either "strategic ambiguity!!!!" or "clarity of intention!!!," as if some words on piece of paper have much to do at all with our actual, settled, notorious policy of no-first-use.

But Obama will nonetheless continue his game of claiming this is merely a continuation of Bush's policy... except on those days, in front of the right audience, where he claims he's made a bold new commitment to not using nukes first and therefore created a "moral imperative" for other nations to make similar (meaningless) vows. He's clarified our policy on nukes, you see.

Except he hasn't. Even within his bold new piece of shit, he says that he won't use nukes to respond to a bio or chem attack... except if someone actually does attack us using such methods, he'll "reconsider" his policy.

That's "clarifying"? We won't use nukes in response to a bio or chem attack, but if you attack us with bio or chem weapons, we'll reconsider the policy and maybe we will use nukes after all?

When asked why Obama was so determined to focus on health care rather than the truly pressing issue of jobs and the economy, Kirsten Powers had a sensible answer-- because he can do something about health care. A legislator can always pass legislation. Now, the public doesn't want legislation -- they want jobs and a positive growth rate -- but legislating legislation is what legislators know how to do.

That made sense to me. Obama is hungry to have "accomplishments." He will not have any of the usual accomplishments of actual foreign policy victories and leaving the world a safer place than he found it. He will not have the big accomplishment of prosperity or economic security.

But he wants to fill out his resume, make it "look good" by making it longer, and so he is stacking the bullet-point list of "accomplishments" with a bunch of nonsense that isn't really accomplishing anything at all. "Health care reform" is his version of the resume-bullshit-padder "facilitated intercollegial communications" and "coordinated with various mission-statements."

Announcing a new non-policy with regard to nukes is his version of "interfaced with action-oriented directives in the Human Resources Policy manual."

Yeah-- but what did you actually do at your job, Mr. President? "I interfaced proactively with policy-rendering committees ."

The President's first job is to protect the American public and make them safe -- and if he can't make them actually safe, make them safer than they were. As he has all but announced his job is to be handmaiden to the Iranian nuke program, he fails in that first job. But hey -- he's facilitating various action-points and agenda-items in security-enhancing context.

The President's second job is to create the conditions under which growth and prosperity are likely, or at least possible. He has failed at that. But hey -- he's coordinating with action-managers to synergize proactively with health-care incentivizations.

When Iran gets the bomb -- which they will -- Obama will claim that by ruling out a first-strke (kinda sorta) he has thereby "strengthened" us and "protected" us by erecting a moral barrier to Iran's own use of nukes.

Oh, sure-- perhaps now we are now threatened by actual nukes detonating in America, or Israel, or in our big bases in Kuwait or Diego Garcia. But think, Obama will say, of how much more danger we would have been in had I not signed a piece a paper saying we probably wouldn't use nukes first, unless we really felt like it!

Since he can't -- or at least won't -- actually do his job, he'll come up with job-like accomplishments to tout in 2012.

Let a smile be your nuclear umbrella, as they say.

Posted by: Ace at 10:44 AM | Comments (145)
Post contains 1559 words, total size 9 kb.

1
Nuclear Tuesday continues!

Posted by: Mannix at April 06, 2010 10:46 AM (nChnP)

2 Nuclear winters are a bitch!

Posted by: conscious and heading for the bomb shelter at April 06, 2010 10:47 AM (YVZlY)

3
The only thing missing from Obama's policy-shift announcement is how it will help our economy and create jobs and cut costs.

Because everything Obama & the Democrats do is good for the economy, creates jobs, and cuts costs.

Posted by: Mannix at April 06, 2010 10:50 AM (nChnP)

4 It seems to me that a post-nuclear holocaust Afghanistan would look an awful lot like regular ole Afghanistan.

Plus a few mutants, of course.

Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 10:50 AM (BFqyO)

5 It's nukler, folks.

Posted by: GW Bush at April 06, 2010 10:51 AM (eoYse)

6 Is it so, I don't know, wrong to think this is something we shouldn't be announcing out loud? If this is what he wants policy to be, fine (I don't agree with it) but should we be telling our very real enemies this? It's like walking into a gang infested neighborhood loaded with cash and telling them you're unarmed.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 10:52 AM (gofDd)

7 IF ONLY Obama is this rational.

Posted by: always right at April 06, 2010 10:52 AM (7GfKM)

8 Nook-you-ler. 

I was a nookyouler engineer, so I oughta know.

Posted by: Jimmah Cartuh at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (BFqyO)

9 funny thing -- I tried to spell it 'nucular" twice, but got the spell-check underline, and was a little baffled because I knew I was spelling it correctly -- n-u-c-u-l-a-r. Finally I remembered it was nuclear. And I'm even pretty good about always saying "nuclear" and not "nucular."

Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (i6ROy)

10 So are we activating the disambiguity of strategic nonincentivization or what?

Posted by: joncelli at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (RD7QR)

11

So long Taiwan. It was nice knowing you as a free republic.

Posted by: bergerbilder at April 06, 2010 10:53 AM (Sn1SJ)

12 I heard all nuclear weapons are being reconfigured to shot straight up in the air and fall a few feet short of the intended target.

Oh wait, that's Obama's baseball pitch.

Posted by: wtfci at April 06, 2010 10:54 AM (+zo63)

13
He will not have any of the usual accomplishments of actual foreign policy victories...

You know, accomplishments in foreign affairs often go unnoticed, un-praised, and un-felt. Especially today with how uninformed and ignorant the American people are. So maybe Obama figures he shouldn't even bother and, as you say, stick to stuff he can do and stuff people will notice.

Posted by: Mannix at April 06, 2010 10:54 AM (nChnP)

14 It's like walking into a gang infested neighborhood loaded with cash and telling them you're unarmed.

ABORT!  ABORT!

Posted by: Chicago Annenberg Challenge at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (+zo63)

15 Oh, bergerbilder reminds me, what happens if China nukes a carrier battle group? Lobbing a tactical nuke at a CBG is part of their doctrine.

Posted by: joncelli at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (RD7QR)

16

That's an interesting theory ace but somehow I don't think that taking nukes off the table after one of our cities is attacked by anthrax is going to work for him as a campaign slogan. I can't see the following bumper sticker gaining much traction.

Destroy and American City! First one Free!

Posted by: robtr at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (fwSHf)

17 >>>Is it so, I don't know, wrong to think this is something we shouldn't be announcing out loud? I suppose, but this to me is like that talk/not-talk fight, where frankly, sure, maybe I can see that not-talking is 1% better than the other policy, but both suck ass, so honestly, I have trouble getting jazzed about somethinmg that sucks 1% less. If you want to use nukes, the takeaway is that the US will never use nukes except in response to a direct nuclear attack. Yes, I suppose it's better to maintain that maybe we would use them *on paper,* but it's still just an empty threat. Better an empty threat than no threat at all, I guess, but I really cannot gin up a lot of passion over either.

Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 10:55 AM (i6ROy)

18 Is it so, I don't know, wrong to think this is something we shouldn't be announcing out loud?



Hey, all those years of majorly eggheaded thought that went into nuclear deterrence planning is old and tired.

Gimme a mop!  Anybody got a mop??  Somebody gotta mop.

Posted by: Barky Obonga at April 06, 2010 10:56 AM (BFqyO)

19

It's like walking into a gang infested neighborhood loaded with cash and telling them you're unarmed.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 02:52 PM (gofDd)

I'm missing your point...

Posted by: Barack "The Pussy Appeaser" Obama at April 06, 2010 10:57 AM (YVZlY)

20 In 1991 I was in another country (not Desert Shield) serving in the Air Force. We had two squadrons of jet fighters and we both had what were called "special weapons" commitments. Our squadron got to load nukes and our sister squadron got to load chemical weapons on their jets. Some time in that year, our sister squadron lost their chemical commitment because GHW Bush rightfully decided that a chemical or biological attack on us was the same thing as using a nuclear weapon. All the chemical weapons were removed from our inventories then and I do believe we are still in the process of destroying them to this day. For this clown (Obama) to publically declare that he might not respond in kind to a WMD attack on us takes away quite a bit of our deterrent and we simply do not have the available manpower to fight everyone if a whole bunch of countries suddenly decide they can hit us. What the hell is this guy thinking? Even if he is not inclined to follow through with that kind of response, you don't delcare it publically.

Posted by: Bill R. at April 06, 2010 10:58 AM (EhlQq)

21 Yes, he tried to infer that he was changing the evil Buuuussshhh policy when in fact the policy is the same policy that has been in place since the late 50s.

And no, the attack on the WTC was nothing like a nuclear blast. A nuclear blast at the site of the WTC would have produced a crater 1000 yards wide and a total destruction blast zone for a 5 mile radius.

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 10:59 AM (QrA9E)

22 Doesn't this have something to do with Earth Day?

Posted by: Al "clueless" Gore at April 06, 2010 10:59 AM (2+9Yx)

23

Let a smile be your nuclear umbrella, as they say.

That's just fucking brilliant, really.  Too bad we don't have SAC anymore - that would look so cool as the motto on the SAC sheild, painted on the side of a B-52, with LeMay standing next to it chomping on a big nasty cigar.

Posted by: sherlock at April 06, 2010 10:59 AM (ZrS0c)

24 Why would any of our enemies use nukes against us right now? They might hit Obama by mistake and then maybe someone who gives a fuck about defending the country could be in charge. As long as he's in power they can get whatever they want without wasting ammo.

Posted by: Trimegistus at April 06, 2010 11:00 AM (keqaN)

25 I agree wholeheartedly, BillR.

I'm thinking that there isn't a whole lot of deep thinking going on in the White House.  It all seems to be very simple, quintessential knee-jerk liberalism.

And that is what is so terrifying.

Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 11:01 AM (BFqyO)

26 It's ok Ace. Net Neutrality just got shot down. No need to agree with Obama any longer.

Posted by: Barbarian at April 06, 2010 11:01 AM (EL+OC)

27 Obama's now put a big 'kick me' sign on the USA's back. The last time that happened was with Jimmy Carter. Anybody remember that little Tehran embassy thingie?

Posted by: liontooth at April 06, 2010 11:01 AM (9wLy+)

28

To my friendly enemies...

If you like your nuclear weapons, you can keep you nuclear weapons.  As for us, not so much.

Posted by: Barack "Fucking Insane" Obama at April 06, 2010 11:03 AM (YVZlY)

29 Oh, bergerbilder reminds me, what happens if China nukes a carrier battle group? Lobbing a tactical nuke at a CBG is part of their doctrine.

If they do it will miss because the Navy is all PC now. Womens on the subs, no smoking, and plenty o' same sex sex without worry.

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 11:04 AM (QrA9E)

30

Yeah-- but what did you actually do at your job, Mr. President? "I interfaced proactively with policy-rendering committees ."

The mind of a lib academic.

Let a smile be your nuclear umbrella, as they say.

This prhase is awesome, but I prefer the Blade of Olympus to be my "nuclear umbrella"..ella...ella..eh...eh...eh.

Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) at April 06, 2010 11:05 AM (9hSKh)

31 I can see a comeback in commercials for me with Obama's new policy!

Posted by: The Bear at April 06, 2010 11:06 AM (fwSHf)

32 I'm gonna be undecided on this issue until Paul C. weighs in with his thoughts, especially which underage bimbette excites him because of this.

Really. I am.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at April 06, 2010 11:06 AM (2PTT7)

33

32 I can see a comeback in commercials for me with Obama's new policy!

I'll be making my debut.

Posted by: The Dragon at April 06, 2010 11:07 AM (9hSKh)

34 What happened to Obama's "If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun"?
"

Posted by: liontooth at April 06, 2010 11:07 AM (9wLy+)

35 Does this mean he'll be sending 'agents' for my microwave?

Posted by: Drillanwr at April 06, 2010 11:07 AM (1kwr2)

36

We can haz trifecta!

Posted by: Ed Anger at April 06, 2010 11:07 AM (7+pP9)

37 What happened to Obama's "If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun"?
"

That's only for actual enemies, like conservatives and Israel.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 06, 2010 11:08 AM (mR7mk)

38 Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 02:55 PM (i6ROy)

True but it also goes towards credibility. If Bush had announced we would no longer use nuclear weapons in retaliation, would anyone have believed it? And even if they did, they probably wouldn't test him on it.

That Obama is announcing this is more, I suppose, credible and I'm betting one or more of our many enemies would be willing to test just how far they can go before they get a response. Hell, look at teh Won's response to the Christmas Day bomber. It wasn't even a blip in his day. (Although if DC were hit, that might make them take notice.) If something on a 9/11 scale or bigger hits, teh won is going to be fetal under his desk in the Oval Office.

Or I could be completely wrong and at the first major provocation teh Won is going to hit the red button.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:08 AM (gofDd)

39

35 What happened to Obama's "If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun"?

That's only for domestic issues, not foreign.  Foreign policy is: "If they Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bow".

Posted by: Kratos (missing from the side of Mt Olympus) at April 06, 2010 11:08 AM (9hSKh)

40 So if there's a coordinated chemical attack in the NYC subway, Obama's response will be what? Consulting Miss Cleo on the proper reaction?

Posted by: ErikW at April 06, 2010 11:09 AM (fFCLX)

41 It seems to me that a post-nuclear holocaust Afghanistan would look an awful lot like regular ole Afghanistan.

Plus a few mutants, of course.

Trust me, there are already plenty of mutants there now.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:10 AM (qzoN5)

42 OTOH, MAD only works when both sides have something to lose. Not so much when the other side is already in the 7th century.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:10 AM (gofDd)

43 Listening to the lib comments after the NYT article on this about made my head explode... how smart and effective this new bullshit is... just wait and see Teabaggers, see what a smart president can do for a change. Yadda yadda. Freaking morons. Touchy-feely new age idiots. Even better are the clowns who think we should give up our arsenal because it a) isn't fair to other countries and b) we have blood on _our_ hands because of Hiroshima and Nagaski. The lack of real knowledge of anything passing as actual history is frightening. They're going to get us killed.

Posted by: Vet_Missing_Parts at April 06, 2010 11:10 AM (MCHyX)

44
Barack is like Kirk Douglas in the commie crapfest "Lonely are the Brave", who gets his ass kicked in a bar fight by a one armed man after he promises to only use one arm himself, to make it fair.

Posted by: Atomic Roach at April 06, 2010 11:11 AM (Oxen1)

45 He will allow Iran to develop the bomb so they can do his dirty work for him...rid the Middle East of that pesky trouble maker Israel.  Problem solved because they know we won't retaliate.

FU52

Posted by: mpfs at April 06, 2010 11:12 AM (iYbLN)

46 What happened to Obama's "If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun"?


This happened:  http://bit.ly/dkZwUI

Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 11:12 AM (BFqyO)

47 So if there's a coordinated chemical attack in the NYC subway, Obama's response will be what?

Get some photos taken of his "concern" face, read a few platitudes off the TOTUS, go shoot some hoops, and send Biden out for cheeseburgers.  Wookiee will buy a new sexy cocktail dress for the memorial service.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 06, 2010 11:12 AM (mR7mk)

48 17 >>>Is it so, I don't know, wrong to think this is something we shouldn't be announcing out loud?

I suppose, but this to me is like that talk/not-talk fight, where frankly, sure, maybe I can see that not-talking is 1% better than the other policy, but both suck ass, so honestly, I have trouble getting jazzed about somethinmg that sucks 1% less.

If you want to use nukes, the takeaway is that the US will never use nukes except in response to a direct nuclear attack. Yes, I suppose it's better to maintain that maybe we would use them *on paper,* but it's still just an empty threat.

Better an empty threat than no threat at all, I guess, but I really cannot gin up a lot of passion over either.


Seriously?
The time we did use them was not in response to a direct nuclear attack. 

Posted by: s☺mej☼e at April 06, 2010 11:14 AM (4y0YU)

49 Not so much when the other side is already in the 7th century.

And want to die anyway.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:15 AM (qzoN5)

50 So if there's a coordinated chemical attack in the NYC subway, Obama's response will be what?

NOTHING.  He could care less about the citizens of this country.  He only loves himself.

Posted by: mpfs at April 06, 2010 11:16 AM (iYbLN)

51 Oh HEather,
You forgot the belt.  The Wookie will need a new belt for the incredibly tasteless frock she will wear.

Posted by: mpfs at April 06, 2010 11:17 AM (iYbLN)

52

So if there's a coordinated chemical attack in the NYC subway, Obama's response will be what?


Our response will be to wonder what we did to piss them off so badly.

Posted by: Winston Smith, Lotus Eater at April 06, 2010 11:17 AM (BFqyO)

53 Ace, I have never been so turned on by a misshapen humanoid as I am right now, by you.

Posted by: mshad at April 06, 2010 11:17 AM (FcLua)

54

Re-elect Obama 2012: Effective execution in culpability transference!

Posted by: FeuerPferd at April 06, 2010 11:18 AM (cQyWA)

55 mpfs--of course!  She couldn't possibly make do with the 137 other designer ammo belts she's purchased since the coronation.  That's for little people.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at April 06, 2010 11:20 AM (mR7mk)

56

Pat Tillman was among many young heros who were killed because Bush wouldn't nuke Tora Bora.

 

Posted by: torabora at April 06, 2010 11:24 AM (suDMh)

57 Of course, a nuclear attack would have added that energy of falling buildings to its total energy, too; but it terms of death and destruction, certainly the attack was nuclear-like.If four bombs have ever managed to kill 2996 people in one attack, I don't know about it, and certainly this is nearly unprecedented if not completely so.

Really? Cause Little Boy killed at least 100,000. And Fat Man killed at least 60,000. (And I have no problem with that, so spare me that shit.) But you want to claim 2996 dead was a "nuclear-level" attack, and you can't recall a bomb ever doing that much damage? Fucking retard. Way to go, Ace.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:25 AM (NNdl8)

58

Ace ...

wait until the text is release before claiming it doesn't change anything ...  the Russians are claiming it limits our DELIVERY vehicles ...  not just the bombs ... 

You know those silly old delivery vehicles that drop old school iron bombs or new school cruise missles as well as nukes ... 

if what the Russians are claiming is true then when rogue nation A hits us with non nuke WMD's we may not have enough assets to hit them back with given our ongoing Iraq and Afghan activites ... 

notice how the 2 recent Obama initiatives fit nicely together ... 

Tough guy Obama:  We'll smash you with conventional bombs if you gas us or bug us ...

Real World Obama:  Gee, we negotiated our delivery vehicles away to the Russians for some magic beans ...  Well, THE NEXT TIME you hit us we'll really get mad and then we'll free up some bombers from Afghan or Iraq to hit you back, maybe ...

 

 

Posted by: Jeff at April 06, 2010 11:29 AM (QdGwf)

59 This settles it Obama is a communist plant, unilaterally disarming is one of the 1963 communist goals look it up.. He needs to be tried for treason.

Posted by: cbcvb at April 06, 2010 11:30 AM (jSWOe)

60 Yard by yard, Obama is busy building a bright, shiny 8-lane freeway for Iran -- a freeway that runs between now and the moment of Iran's willingness to use its new nukes unilaterally for any pretext the mullahs deem sufficient. G_d save the Israeli Defense Forces, the world's very last line of defense against Iranian nukes.

Posted by: Albus at April 06, 2010 11:30 AM (OaRvZ)

61 All this "new policy" really represents is a transparent attempt by the Obama administration to "legitimize" his winning the Nobel Peace Prize. 

It's asinine really, to project such tremendous weakness when your enemies and allies both already think your incredibly weak.  It will no doubt simply cause enemies of the United States to become emboldened as they realize that despite our tremendous military might and superiority we completely lack the will or resolve to use it effectively.

I'm sure the Taliban and various terror groups are laughing their asses off right now, bragging to anyone that will listen how they are bringing the great United States to it's knees because our leaders are too weak to follow through on what must be done.

So no, the actually policy "change" itself isn't really my concern so much as the clear cut message it sends to all of those who would wish us harm.  Someday the US needs to get over this "we can't be the bully" attitude and realize that if we are going to go to war, for whatever reason, we have to do it all out.

No more of this half measure, limited response bullshit.  If were going to invade Afghanistan, then by God we hit them like their is no tomorrow, because by the time were through there should be no tomorrow for our enemies. 

No more of this mamby pamby crap, roll in there with everything we have and if necessary turn the entire fucking place into a parking lot.  The best security our troops have is massive, overwhelming force.  Every time you cut down on that you put our boy's lives at risk, and I'm sorry but that's simply unacceptable.

If as a President you don't have the stomach for it, then pull our boys out completely.  Otherwise take off the leash.  No more telegraphing strikes or any of that crap.  You hit the enemy fast and as hard as you possibly can.  If collateral damage can be minimized, great, but that should never be your primary concern.

Your primary concern should always be for the brave soldiers you command, period.  Everything else is a distant 3rd or 4th at best.  So our military "policy" should be simple. We don't take options of the table, ever.  We will respond as we see fit to any attack.

If you as a sovereign nation ignore or support such attacks, then you are responsible for such attacks just as if these terrorists are your armed forces.  Turning a blind eye to such things or worse yet actively supporting them is an act of war.  If you hit one of my cities then by God I do whatever I think is necessary to make sure another one won't get hit.  If that means dropping a few dozen megatons and vaporizing your worthless little shit bag country so be it.  Yes, I feel bad for your citizenry, after all it's not their fault directly.  But since you represent them as a government they have two choices, throw your ass out or face the full force of a major retaliation for the worthless despots they've left in power all these years.

Rules of Engagement?  If you're in a war zone your rule is to bring you and your unit back alive. 

Nuclear proliferation?  Fuck you.  Your not entitled to the bomb.  No such thing as a level playing field there.  If you continue to try to develop a weapon of mass destruction then this too is considered an act of war, because the bomb really only has one use and we all know why you want one. 

No more of this mamby pamby dictators are just as good as us routine.  No, if your a filthy little despot or a bunch of religious fanatics bent on world domination then we take you out long before you ever get close to developing a working nuke, and if the UN or anybody else bitches about it then fuck you we pull our funding.  Go have your little swaries where you denounce the US and celebrate the worlds Despots somewhere else.  I here Rwanda is nice this time of year.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at April 06, 2010 11:33 AM (e8T35)

62 This settles it Obama is a communist plant, unilaterally disarming is one of the 1963 communist goals look it up.. He needs to be tried for treason.

While I'm looking that up, why don't you look up where Obama ever advocated unilateral disarmament. And the constitution defines what constitutes treason. Look that up too.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:33 AM (NNdl8)

63

In any instance where the US would even consider using a nuclear response, I firmly expect Obama to issue a strongly-worded apology followed by a clear illustration of why Bush is at fault for the circumstance leading up to our disagreement.  Followed by liberal application of a reset button to prevent future misunderstandings.

That's why I'm checking the El Presedente for Life button on the 2012 ballot.

Posted by: Mike at April 06, 2010 11:34 AM (ncMt3)

64 You know what pisses me off about all of this?  It's more of the same "do the opposite of whatever Bush did" strategy.  (Or at least try to look like that's what you're doing.)  He just turned around 60+ years of foreign policy, just so he can claim to be different from Bush.  Just like Gitmo, just like his declarations on torture.  Not much is changing, but all these statements he's putting out are painting the US into a corner.  And then whoever comes in in '13 (or, God forbid, '17) will have to turn things back around just as much.  We can't keep doing these dramatic shifts in policy every 4 or 8 years. 

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:34 AM (qzoN5)

65

Or I could be completely wrong and at the first major provocation teh Won is going to hit the red button.      Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 03:08 PM (gofDd)

He's going to hit Barney Frank's squeak hole?

Posted by: Old Hippie Vet at April 06, 2010 11:34 AM (3IZGh)

66 Obama ... more a girly-man POTUS than "24"s President Taylor.

Posted by: Drillanwr at April 06, 2010 11:36 AM (1kwr2)

67 This just puts in writing what we already knew when Obama was elected.

 I don't see how this hurts America anymore, since those who would do us harm would have assumed that Obama didn't have the stones to use a nuke, anyway.  He has no intention of every using nukes, regardless of the situation.

Posted by: taylork at April 06, 2010 11:37 AM (0Hn5w)

68

Now that this comes to life with regards to Obama and the nukes (or defense plan), is there any wonder our new ROEs in Afghan can be any different?

"Yo, terrorrists, hide out amongst the women and children, and we won't shoot at ya...."

Posted by: always right at April 06, 2010 11:38 AM (7GfKM)

69 Speaking of Big Michelles style, have you ever been to the blogs Michellesmirror. blog or Newsbirdsview.wordpress?  Both are really funny and comment on her choice of dresses.

Posted by: fightobama at April 06, 2010 11:38 AM (6IV8T)

70 "Yo, terrorrists, hide out amongst the women and children, and we won't shoot at ya...."

That's not new.  That's pretty much what we have already.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:40 AM (qzoN5)

71 and carbone chimes in to repeat the same point as other more worthy contributors, but with bonus expletives.

Show me where someone else made that point. Really. Maybe I missed it. But I don't see anyone else calling Ace out on his obvious bullshit. There have been two nuclear attacks in all of history. And 9/11, horrible as it was, didn't come close to matching their death toll. So this "nuclear-level attack" business is crap.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:40 AM (NNdl8)

72 I nominate StuckOnStupid for President. Seriously, though, he's right. If we're going to be in a war, we have to be in it to win. War is hell, as a very famous general once said. And he waged war to win.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:43 AM (gofDd)

73 Working against the best interest of the country seems pretty treasonous to me. Oh and overthrowing the gov't as we know it. I'm pretty sure that's treason. Wait until he declares he's president for life. Then can we call it treason?

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:45 AM (gofDd)

74 Post 21, lackwit.

He was talking about crater size, not death toll. But, yeah, Ace's post is stupid for that reason too.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:47 AM (NNdl8)

75 The point at post 21 was that Bush was certainly justified in not using a nuke on the 'Stans because the attack on the WTC was not even close to a nuke.

That being said I would have like to have seen a better response.   

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 11:50 AM (QrA9E)

76

He's going to hit Barney Frank's squeak hole?

I'd hit it like Fat Man over Nagasaki, IYKWIMAITYD!!!

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:50 AM (fFCLX)

77 I say we dust off, nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Posted by: Ripley at April 06, 2010 11:50 AM (27KAF)

78 Ace, that Tora Bora strike - probably wouldn't have worked. A nuke play would have been Kandahar or hitting Tora Bora before they got there to deny it as a sanctuary.

Posted by: Jean at April 06, 2010 11:51 AM (tTdaQ)

79 Working against the best interest of the country seems pretty treasonous to me

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3 Doing something you disagree with isn't treason. I didn't like when the kos kids accused Bush of treason, and I don't like this either. That kind of reckless accusation is ... I obviously won't say "treasonous"... but I will call it disloyal and unpatriotic.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:51 AM (NNdl8)

80 There actually are smaller nukes than the Little Boy bomb, which in the modern era was a relative pipsqueak at 15kT.  The "backpack nukes" mainly meant to be nuclear demolition weapons (e.g., take out a bridge, take out a dam) are about a kiloton in yield.  The US had a W54 weapon called "Little David" that could be fired from a recoilless rifle in the 1950s with a 10-20 ton yield, there was a SADM (Special Attack Demolition Munition) that could be dialed up to a kiloton.  These are well within the amount of damage that the WTC collapse created.

Chemical weapons are nasty but by and large they can't get a large geographical area.  Biologicals, on the other hand, already exist and are already lethal.  They're cheaper than nukes, self-replicating in some cases, and people are their delivery system.  Get someone with subclinical smallpox on a commercial jetliner and you've just created a real problem for the US.  Almost as bad is to walk through a field in Africa destroyed by the Ug99 wheat  rust and then take a trip from Kansas to Alberta in the same boots.  You wouldn't kill anyone directly, but months later  when the US is fighting a raging wheat rust and losing 30-50% of our crop, people will most certainly starve somewhere in the world.

The calculus has changed in that as a potential adversary I would not invest in a nuclear infrastructure.  It's huge, expensive, visible from space and eminently targetable.  I would spend my time and a fraction of the money on a biological weapons lab -- because there's no guaranteed response to that.

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 11:51 AM (iXV5s)

81 I thought this whole "no nukes" spiel was to get hippie chicks into bed.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 06, 2010 11:52 AM (I1/U/)

82 And, to head this one off at the pass, "aid and comfort" has a specific meaning. It's not whatever you don't like. So spare me the Obama's giving aid and comfort to Ahmadinejad bullshit.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 11:53 AM (NNdl8)

83 what could be deemed a "nuclear-level" attack.

Whoa.  Careful there, deemer.  Bambi is dumb enough without making this stretch, Stretch Armstrong.  Two buildings does not a nuclear attack make.

Bambi's a dumbass all on his own.  The bad actors of the world with either think he's lying, in which case their behavior won't change, or they'll think he's incredibly, stupidly naive, and telling the truth, in which case they be more likely (how ever little that is) to attack.  It didn't work for Neville Chamberlain, but by God it'll work for Neville Obama.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 06, 2010 11:53 AM (1fanL)

84 Wait a minute . . . is it a generally accepted truth that we'd never use nukes against anyone, for any reason?

Really?

Then why do we even have the damn things?

Personally, I'd use one every now and again, just to remind everyone that you just never know.

Posted by: tsj017 at April 06, 2010 11:54 AM (4YUWF)

85 I would spend my time and a fraction of the money on a biological weapons lab -- because there's no guaranteed response to that.

Don't you play Resident Evil? WE just need a team of super agents to defeat it and all we'll lose is a poorly named city..

Posted by: taylork at April 06, 2010 11:54 AM (0Hn5w)

86 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3

Well, considering the war that the Obamaster has waged on our economy, our status as a world power, and our self respect as a nation, who knows, there just might be a case here.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at April 06, 2010 11:55 AM (e8T35)

87 86 And, to head this one off at the pass, "aid and comfort" has a specific meaning.

So what is the specific meaning?

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 11:57 AM (qzoN5)

88 I nominate StuckOnStupid for President. Seriously, though, he's right. If we're going to be in a war, we have to be in it to win. War is hell, as a very famous general once said. And he waged war to win.

Rotfl.. flattering, but I don't really want the job.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at April 06, 2010 11:57 AM (e8T35)

89 Vic, I think a low casualty strike on Tora Bora to collapse the caves and illustrate our resolve to Paki's would have been ok.

Posted by: Jean at April 06, 2010 11:57 AM (OlnxK)

90 Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 03:51 PM (NNdl

Why are you here? Seriously. If we're too dumb and stupid for you, why bother? Do you think you're changing hearts and minds here? What purpose do you have to come around and think you're fucking morally superior here? And yeah, somehow I think pretty much giving Iran free reign to whatever it damn well wants to do qualifies as aid and comfort. You can qualify you didn't like when the kos kids did it but I don't fucking believe you. I'm sure you cheered them on. So fuck off, asshole. If the Left, and it's not just the Kos Kids, can call Bush a treasonous asshole, turnabout is fair play. Obama is a traitor. So. There.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 11:58 AM (gofDd)

91 So what is the specific meaning?

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 03:57 PM (qzoN5)

Warm milk and a blankie.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 06, 2010 11:59 AM (1fanL)

92 Rum's got the boots on.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:00 PM (qzoN5)

93 tsj017 - it was never our policy not to use. Look up the ADMs in Europe to shape the geography. It was the first use of a strategic strike against population centers that was off of the table.

Posted by: Jean at April 06, 2010 12:00 PM (vb5IK)

94 Rum's got the boots on.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 04:00 PM (qzoN5)

And there's no predicting.  Sometimes soft and warm, some times, hard and razor-sharp.  I'll bet it keeps things spicy in her relationships.  I mean, the real-life ones.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 06, 2010 12:02 PM (1fanL)

95

Hiroshima, 8/6/1945:

http://tinyurl.com/ydkzocv

Wow.

Posted by: FireHorse at April 06, 2010 12:03 PM (cQyWA)

96 It's stompin' time.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 06, 2010 12:05 PM (I1/U/)

97 Btw, anyone notice that whenever the Left accuses the Right of treason, it's usually because the Right is doing something in the best interests of the US and against the "global community"?

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 12:06 PM (gofDd)

98 >>103 Btw, anyone notice that whenever the Left accuses the Right of treason, it's usually because the Right is doing something in the best interests of the US and against the "global community"?


Every once in awhile a comment here will give a nice, juicy realization. That comment is one of them.

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 06, 2010 12:09 PM (I1/U/)

99 @90

Project Bachus was a 1999 Defense Threat Reduction Agency experiment to a) see if they could build a 'clandestine' bioweapons lab from off-the-shelf components, and b) operate the thing and see if they could detect it with remote sensing.

They announced that a) was successful.  For under a million dollars they built a lab that made Bacillus thurigensis, a bacterium used as a benign biopesticide.  The reason this is important is that if you can grow B. thurigensis you can grow its much nastier cousin, B. anthracis, the spores of which cause anthrax.

As to b), they have not for national security reasons disclosed if they could detect that the lab was operating.  Chances are pretty good that given the relatively low heat, power draw and other signatures that make a bioweapons  lab not much different than a commercial bakery or hospital laboratory, they weren't able to pick it out from background.

Anthrax is nasty, but it's not self-propagating.  Other bioweapons, like tularemia and various viruses are self-propagating, including the 1918 H1N1 influenza, the genome of which has thoughtfully been published.  Researchers have taken H1N1 strains and added some 1918 genes for experimental purposes, it's as lethal as ever.

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 12:09 PM (iXV5s)

100

Why are you here? Seriously. If we're too dumb and stupid for you, why bother?

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 03:58 PM (gofDd)

 

I suppose when one is a socially maladjusted psychopath, one must get their kicks where ever they can find it. Unfortunately for us, the S.S. Asshat seems to have dropped anchor in this sunny little corner of the intertubes.

Posted by: ErikW at April 06, 2010 12:11 PM (fFCLX)

101 Unfortunately for us, the S.S. Asshat seems to have dropped anchor in this sunny little corner of the intertubes.

We should sink it with a nuclear torpedo.

Posted by: wherestherum at April 06, 2010 12:13 PM (gofDd)

102 I think you scared it, Rum.  Been awfully quiet since the stompin'.  And I'm still waiting on its specific definition of aid and comfort.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:13 PM (qzoN5)

103 I dunno about Fat Men but I sure do love Little Boys!

Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:14 PM (VDgKF)

104 Ah hell, who am I kidding, I love Fat Men too.  I'll take any cock I can get.

Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:15 PM (VDgKF)

105 This guy is a creep who has been here before and was banned for obnoxious stuff. He just came back under a different name. He is the same one who was here last week when PA put up his address which was coming out of a proxy server to try to hide.

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 12:15 PM (QrA9E)

106 What, you mean PC, Paulie, Paul C, and Paulie Carbone are all the same guy?  Wow, he really is scary smart.

Posted by: Damn Skippy at April 06, 2010 12:17 PM (VDgKF)

107 Hey Ryan Jackson of Sayerville, NJ, do you use the n-word around black people, or is it just because you're always on all-white sites like Matthew Yglesias that you feel you're "among wink-wink friends" and can get away with it?

Posted by: ace at April 06, 2010 12:17 PM (i6ROy)

108 Neither Vic nor Paulie know what the F they're talking about when it comes to nuke yields, BTW.  Yes, there are bombs with a 1000-yard crater, but there is no crater at Ground Zero in Hiroshima.  Been there personally.  There's a sidewalk.  That's because it was an airburst.  And nukes come in all sizes, from 10-ton backpack nukes to the Tsar Bomba.

I will second the 'lackwit' statement for both Vic and Paulie.  Ace is correct.

I'll wait while you read 'Physics for Future Presidents' by Richard Muller.  You can get it on Amazon.

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 12:18 PM (iXV5s)

109 Nice.  Get some, ace.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:18 PM (qzoN5)

110 I didn't like when the kos kids accused Bush of treason, and I don't like this either. That kind of reckless accusation is ... I obviously won't say "treasonous"... but I will call it disloyal and unpatriotic.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 06, 2010 03:51 PM (NNdl  


yeah sure you didn't. you lying fuck. by the way, I thought that dissent was patriotic? guess that's one more do as we say, not as we do, you liberal fascists are famous for right? go fuck yourself sideways, in the squeakhole with a fresh pineapple you useless shit.




Posted by: Unclefacts, AoSHQ Professional Debate Team at April 06, 2010 12:19 PM (erIg9)

111 Aid is when you give me cock, and comfort is when I'm done receiving that particular cock.

Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:19 PM (VDgKF)

112 Google image result for Ryan Jackson  (Might be NSFW)

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:21 PM (qzoN5)

113 Impressive gut sure, but where's the cock?

Posted by: Polly Carboner at April 06, 2010 12:23 PM (VDgKF)

114 Ryan Jackson, conscientious objector and IVAW member.  Also, buddies with Adam Kokesh, from the link.

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:24 PM (qzoN5)

115 So how does this new, or not so new, whatever, 'strategy' address NATO? What about our policy towards Taiwan? Do these dame restrictions apply in those cases? Or are those more of a "graded response"?

Posted by: catmman at April 06, 2010 12:24 PM (BCSpK)

116 I think the main damage is to the morale of the service people, engineers, etc who design, maintain, and operate these things.  I sure wouldn't want to be sitting in a silo somewhere or maintaining readiness or whatever knowing that it was meaningless.

But I actually do think that our long-standing ambiguity policy (as opposed to this muddled confusion from Barry) is the best one.  You gotta remember that many/most of our enemies are really irrational.  They judge by their own standards of behavior.  They'd use nukes, so they assume we would, too.  (Which we might.)  Obama thinks everyone has the same creased pants and cool temperament that he's credited with having.

Posted by: Y-not at April 06, 2010 12:26 PM (Kn9r7)

117 Neither Vic nor Paulie know what the F they're talking about when it comes to nuke yields,

I might surprise you since I had been trained on them largely in the Navy. But since Ace's reference was to the WTC I was comparing it to a similar strike with a nuke at or near ground level. OI never said a word about Hiroshima.

And if you do do an air burst yes you may not get a crater, but you get a larger zone of destruction. And IF you think that the planes crashing into the WTC is the same as if being hit by a 10 or 15 MT weapon you are the one who knows nothing about weapons.

So Mr. idiot you can kiss my lackwit ass. 

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 12:26 PM (QrA9E)

118 Trees are most miraculous renewable resource. We eat their fruits, we build with them, and we burn them for fuel. And then they grow back again. But no... trees are pretty. Birds live in them. Cutting them down is evil. The environmentalist movement is one of suicidal insanity. Nuke policy stirred in with a little peacenik and a touch of 'green' will doom us all. Get a rope.

Posted by: Nickie Goomba at April 06, 2010 12:26 PM (6lRYQ)

119

And while you're kissing my ass, can I suck your cock?

Posted by: Vick at April 06, 2010 12:27 PM (VDgKF)

120 So how does this new, or not so new, whatever, 'strategy' address NATO? What about our policy towards Taiwan? Do these dame restrictions apply in those cases? Or are those more of a "graded response"?

I doubt Obama gave it that much thought.

Posted by: taylork at April 06, 2010 12:28 PM (0Hn5w)

121

The good news - this is only a "policy", easily changed when Oblather gets shown the door.

The new "treaty" with Russia is just that - a treaty which requires the Senate.  IF the Senate signs off on this POS, we've got major problems.  IF the GOP had a functioning neuron, they would press for a Senate vote on this before the 2010 elections.  Get everyone on the record.

Posted by: MDr VB1.0 CS1st at April 06, 2010 12:29 PM (ucq49)

122

The government of Iran, in its current form, attacked a US embassy, launched mutiple terrorist attacks, attacked ships in the straits of Hormuz and has furnished weapons and training to terrorists in both Iraq and Afghanistan. These are acts of war. Whether we choose to officially declare war, react without declaring hostilities, or do nothing are all options. But the fact remains that the current Iranian government has engaged in arggresive acts against American forces, installations and civilians.

Aid and comfort? It's a plausible assertion, however, I would not attribute to malice what can be better explained by stupidity.

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 06, 2010 12:30 PM (R2fpr)

123 Of course, the problem is the lefties who think this is something substantial.  They think because he says he won't use them that they can breathe a sigh of relief.

They think if you say something, you can make it so.

I guarantee you if Somalia were to invade Kenya, Obama'd turn Mogadishu into glass.  He has his priorities.

Posted by: AmishDude at April 06, 2010 12:33 PM (T0NGe)

124 I agree that this is a stupid change in policy but I also agree that it doesn't matter much. Ace has it pretty right that our previous position to reserve the right to use nukes was only a  bluff. There's not a politician in Washington who would have the guts to use nukes if the situation called for it and we all know it.

Posted by: GhostShip at April 06, 2010 12:47 PM (oJebf)

125 IF the GOP had a functioning neuron, they would press for a Senate vote on this before the 2010 elections.

Oh hell no.  They'd pass it, then we'd be stuck with it. 

Posted by: Bomber at April 06, 2010 12:48 PM (qzoN5)

126 "He's going to hit Barney Frank's squeak hole?" I wouldnt call it a squeak hole so much as a gaping wound. Think goatse.

Posted by: lowfibass at April 06, 2010 01:00 PM (T1ZAZ)

127 I have read analyses that claimed the energy released by the bombing, in the form of collapsing buildings, reached the lower levels of a nuclear attack. Of course, a nuclear attack would have added that energy of falling buildings to its total energy, too; but it terms of death and destruction, certainly the attack was nuclear-like.

Yeah, but you missed the point that it was an inside job done by Bush/Cheney. Therefore using nukes would have been a no no.

Posted by: kansas at April 06, 2010 01:21 PM (8i4ik)

128 Vic,

Congratulations on your training, and thanks for your service.

I think you will agree with me that "lower levels of nuclear attack" and "10-15 MT" are nowhere near the same concepts.  What you're discussing is among the largest nuclear weapons ever fielded.  What Ace is discussing is a scale of destruction consistent with the smallest.

The largest deployed ICBM warhead was a 24MT warhead on some models of the SS-18.  The largest warhead deployed on a US missile was the Titan-II warhead, a 9MT bomb.  A few air-dropped bombs were in that class, but pretty much nobody fields a weapon these days with yield more than a megaton, because a) we invented MIRVs, which are much more efficient at incinerating cities than a single large bomb (i.e., the Poseidon carried up to ten MIRVs with 50kT warheads, because toasting Moscow or Kiev with 10 of those spreads the rads around better than one 1MT bomb), and b) we got accuracy to the point where our missiles became counter-force instead of blatantly counter-population.

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 02:03 PM (iXV5s)

129 an attack that seemed to blur the boundaries between a conventional-level and nuclear level attack, we never seemed to seriously consider the nuclear option ourselves
What do you mean "we", kimosabe?

Posted by: tonto the conservative at April 06, 2010 02:13 PM (KdA1d)

130 I don't think that taking nukes off the table after one of our cities is attacked by anthrax is going to work for him as a campaign slogan.
"You can't hug sheep with nuclear arms" surtitled over the Daisy the Sheep scene from Woody Allen's Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex but Were Afraid To Ask.

Posted by: obama's reelection team at April 06, 2010 02:19 PM (KdA1d)

131 I think you will agree with me that "lower levels of nuclear attack" and "10-15 MT" are nowhere near the same concepts.

What we trained on in the 70s was a 20MT burst at 1K meters on the ocean.

BTW, those very small weapons are the result of massive engineering and testing. The current crop of terrorists are not likely to have that.

But in any case, a plane crashing into the WTC is not the same as even a 15KT device doing the same.

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 02:27 PM (QrA9E)

132 I agree.  But combining the chemical energy of the burning kerosene plus the much greater kinetic energy of a million tons of WTC tower crashing down from up to 1100 feet in the air and you're getting up to the amount of energy released by a (very small) nuclear weapon.  That is Ace's argument, and from a physics standpoint he's probably right.  Especially since he's saying he read analyses created by others.

You were trained AGAINST a 20MT bomb (for damage control, etc.) but the US Navy never fielded a weapon like that, that expectation is for one of those Tu-95s or Tu-195s that would sniff around fleets as naval patrol vessels to suddenly drop a big-ass nuke on your carrier (or the carrier you were protecting).

And I completely agree about the overstated threat of the "backpack nuke".  They do exist, but they're high-speed low-drag affairs like you say, they use the minimum amount of plutonium and the minimum amount of explosive to compress the plutonium. I don't expect that even the arms makers in Peshawar, who can make a H&K G3 clone out of a box of ballpoint pens and an old bicycle could cobble together one.  The bang from one of those is really, really small in nuclear terms -- like I said (and you can Google "W54 warhead" yourself) the yield ranges UP to 1kT (probably with D-T boosting), and as low as 10 tons (the unboosted primary).  It's a lot if you're standing next to it, but even a 1kT bomb isn't all that big.  It would devastate several square blocks -- about the size of the WTC footprint.

There's video of it at sonicbomb.com, you can get to it from the Wikipedia site for 'Little Feller(nuclear tests)', and a 17 minute film about Operation Ivy Flats (the aboveground nuclear test) at the same site.

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 02:51 PM (iXV5s)

133

What about our treaty commitments, where an "attack against one is an attack against all"? 

Haven't we just told the Taiwanese that we WON'T incinerate the Chicoms if  they were to attack the island?  Where's the deterrent?

If anyone can find a clip of that Kirk Douglas movie and get it up on YouTube, I bet it would go viral very quickly.

 

Posted by: effinayright at April 06, 2010 02:59 PM (3sB5l)

134   26 It's ok Ace. Net Neutrality just got shot down. No need to agree with Obama any longer.

Touché!

Posted by: effinayright at April 06, 2010 03:00 PM (3sB5l)

135 nd a 17 minute film about Operation Ivy Flats (the aboveground nuclear test) at the same site.

I was under the impression (memory only) that the Ivy flats tests were in the 6 to 10 MT range. In fact, after the original tests in WWII I though most of the tests were in the MT range.  In fact, I recall hearing about one "accident" in the pacific which was supposed to be 6MT and it turned out to be be 15MT and killed a bunch of people who were outside the exclusion zone.

We worked under an assumption that if we were attacked by either a missile or a bomb it would be in the 10 to 20 MT range and pray that it was over a 1000m away.

We assumed torpedoes would be smaller but non-survivable by us or the launching submarine.

As far as adding in the "energy" of the falling buildings I think that is BS and not the same comparison. If you set off a nuke there you would have a whole lot more falling buildings you could add the energy level to the total. 

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 03:00 PM (QrA9E)

136 The 'Operation Ivy' tests were the early thermonuclear weapons tests.  Operation Ivy Mike was the first thermonuclear detonation, it wasn't even a weapon it was a building that exploded with a yield of 10MT.  That was in the 1950s, in the Pacific.  Mike used cryogenically-cooled liquid deuterium, but wasn't anything like a deliverable weapon. 

Operation Ivy Flats was a different test in 1961, and it was a test of the 'baby' nuke that was part of the M388 Davy Crockett recoilless rifle.  The yield on that one was 10 tons, or .01 kT.

The other one you're remembering was Operation Castle Romeo.  They used lithium deuteride as a solid source for the deuterium for the second, thermonuclear stage of the bomb (the fusion part), without realizing that lithium would contribute to the fusion part of the nuclear detonation and magnify the yield well beyond design limits.  It was supposed to be a 6MT test, the yield was 15MT and they nearly fried the observers.  That was the test where the 'Lucky Dragon', a Japanese fishing trawler, was downwind and got soaked with fallout.

Steven Block is an applied physics professor at Stanford, he calculates that the energy from the burning kerosene from both planes was equivalent to 1,000 tons of TNT -- 1 kiloton.  There is actually more energy stored in kerosene than in C4 for equivalent weight, the difference is that C4 gives off its energy in milliseconds while kerosene has to burn for a while. 

The 'Physics for Future Presidents' book is enlightening in this regard.  I have a lot less fear of a 'dirty bomb' and a lot greater fear of masses of kerosene after reading the book.

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 03:14 PM (iXV5s)

137 I have a lot less fear of a 'dirty bomb' and a lot greater fear of masses of kerosene after reading the book.

I have never had a fear of a dirty bomb. That is the biggest over-hyped pile of crap that has ever been foisted off on the public.

A dirty bomb is nothing more than them gathering up some kind of contaminated material and putting it in a bomb.  They sure as hell aren't going to get anything very "hot" because it will kill them putting it together. And even if they did get something hot it would only spread as far as the bomb would spread it.

Of course I worked in nuclear power for 30 years and am an expert on that kind of shit so it doesn't scare me. I have actually been in a 200 Rem field.  You just don't hang around long gaping at shit. 

Being in Operations I was also trained in the fire brigade so I am not overly scared of kerosene either. The problem they had in NYC was that it burned uncontrolled for hours before collapsing due to failure of the metal clips holding the floors up.

I suspect that if they had crashed those jets into the Empire State Building that they would not have collapsed due to differences in construction. As a matter of fact IIANM a B-25 crashed into the Empire State Building in WWII.

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 03:27 PM (QrA9E)

138 Time for me to cash it in for today. G'Night Morons.

Posted by: Vic at April 06, 2010 03:38 PM (QrA9E)

139 I agree.  30' box girder construction of the ESB means it's going to hang together better than the WTC against that kind of hit.  All it really took was separating the outer wall from the inner core and the thing was coming down.

I'm a radiologist and we hope to never get anywhere near 200 rem.  I can't speak for the cardiologists, some of them think the fluoro pedal is footrest.

A nuclear weapon is really just the most efficient method of heating and displacing air.  The radiation will be a bother for a while, but it will dissipate like everything else.  The 'dirty bomb' is mostly a scare for people who don't understand that there is already a 20% lifetime incidence of malignancy that you buy into simply by being born.  Picking up an increased incidence of malignancy against that normal level of malignancy is pretty difficult, with the exception of a few tumors (thyroid, leukemia for those exposed to the blast or concentrated fallout).  Having been to both Hiroshima and Detroit, I have to say that Hiroshima is in much better condition 65 years later.

What do you think about Yucca Mountain?  I hope that if Harry Reid is ushered to his well-deserved retirement we might actually have a nuclear repository.  Muller goes into detail on how safe it really has to be, we really don't have to design it to last 10,000 years because in 1000 years the fuel will decay down to the same background radiation as the ore it came from.  Personally, I think we should reprocess that stuff and re-use any of the fissile material.  There is a lot of uranium in the world, but it's neither easy nor cheap to refine.  There's plenty of fissile material left in all those fuel rods sitting in a hundred or so containment ponds that's not doing anyone any good.  I mean, if the French can do it...

Posted by: Darren at April 06, 2010 03:39 PM (iXV5s)

140

One aspect that some of y'all missed is that you don't use nuclear retaliation because someone used a big weapon on you - you use it because they have a big target.  Nukes were considered for Afghanistan in 2001, but there were no targets big enough to justify one.  There was enough problem finding targets for conventional munitions. 

I'd say this is another example of the Pres'ent openly denying the philosophical basis for Bush Administration policy, and then continuing the same actions without any philosophical or legal justification.  Weak leaders like the Pres'ent will use whatever means they have when backed into a corner, regardless of policy.

Posted by: Penultimatum at April 06, 2010 05:28 PM (CIKgX)

141 Am I banned? Anybody still reading this? Test...

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 07, 2010 06:02 AM (NNdl8)

142 Why are you here?

Your buddy Ace seems real interested in shit I post on other sites. I think you scared it, Rum. Been awfully quiet since the stompin'. And I'm still waiting on its specific definition of aid and comfort.

So, you guys tell me to leave then ask me to come back and answer questions. OK, the U.S. constitution states: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." The phrase "aid and comfort" derives from the English Treason Act of 1351. Under English law, there were five forms of high treason, but the U.S. only adopted two of them: waging war and aid and comfort. The meaning of the latter form of treason in U.S. law was explained by the Supreme Court in Cramer v. United States, 325 U.S. 1 (1945)(Jackson, J.):

"Thus the crime of treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy; and rendering him aid and comfort. A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country's policy or interest, but so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions, which do aid and comfort the enemy- making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength- but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason."

So "pretty much giving Iran free reign to whatever it damn well wants" does not qualify. There has to be a proven, specific intent to betray the United States. Your argument is basically just Obama committed treason by not bombing Iran yet, and it's a really stupid argument.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 07, 2010 06:24 AM (NNdl8)

143 To put in simpler terms, "adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" implies (1) a specific intent to betray the United States and (2) an act that material aids a state or group at war with the United States.

Posted by: Paulie Carbone at April 07, 2010 06:26 AM (NNdl8)

144 e limitations of this point of view

Posted by: wholesaledunk at October 05, 2010 05:48 PM (zSZW9)

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