1 The best part about it? Idiots everywhere get to equate anything to the right of themselves with Robertson (and expect us to defend him in the bargain).

Thanks 700!

2 I'd say Robertson == douchenozzle, but I don't really want to be dissing actual douche nozzles.

3 He's nuts.

4 How very Old Testament of him. It's the OT pattern of:

Step 1. Sinful Israel

Step 2. ?????

Step 3. Profit!

no wait, sorry that's how Obama plays off our racial sins of the past.

It should be:

Step 1. Sinful Israel

Step 2. God punishes

Step 3. Israel returns to God

That's the Old Testament, someone should remind Robertson that the New Testament was a game changer, doesn't work that way anymore.

5 Bible = 1

Robertson = 0

But will all the anti-Christians talk about all the churches and Christians who will be helping Haiti? No, they pick one loudmouth and give him a bigger platform.

Looking forward for all the atheists to gather this Sunday to help the Haitians.  Will I see you Sunday morning?

6 God could also be "testing their faith".

7 Saddam Hussein said that the Columbia Space Shuttle disaster was Allah's way of punishing the USA.  All these numskulls needs to move into a cave together somewhere and STFU.

You notice how much more quickly and angrily Christians have been denouncing Pat Robertson than Muslims ever denounce terrorists for mass-murdering innocent people?  That's a stark contrast in cultures, isn't it?

8

Robertson. Next subject.

C.S.Lewis' book called the problaim with pain nails this subject. It is sophmoric thinking that Robertson spouts. I don't want to psychoanylize but has he ever really had a real job in his life. Son of a Senator and the tele-evanglist. He lacks gravitas. But then again the Pope is not my spokesman either.

9 polynikes, but if you accept that God is visiting wraths upon people, you'd have to also come to the conclusion that he is VERY slapdash about his application of Holy Justice, because obviously many of the wicked prosper, and many of the innocent suffer. You get into a very tricky area if you start spouting stuff like this. Like, why is He so random about these punishments?

10 "I don't want to psychoanylize" I do. He's nuts.

11 Robertson for all his flaws, is pretty fair and unbiased in his attribution of tragedy to the actions of victims. "Haitians made a pact with the Devil." "Katrina victims lived licentious lives." "America deserved 9-11 because we had turned out backs on God and embraced humanism and abortion, etc." Robertson may be crude and self-righteous, but he is hardly hypocritical or inconsistent.

What motivates Robertson is not hate of the victims (though hate them he may). Rather it is the need to reconcile these terrible events with an active and involved God who is "just".   If these are not the acts of God done in vengeance, then God is not just, not active,,,,or simply... not.....

One can believe in God and believe he is just...but one cannot legitimately ascribe what has happened to Haiti as the retribution of God.  Doestoyevsky faced the same conundrum when he described when he said that the greatest challenge to belief in God was the suffering of children.

Trying to reconcile random suffering can lead one to rationally reject God (to not believe in him or to hate him) or it can lead one, by choice, to make a leap of faith--to continue to trust in God and accept that his ways or his motivations must remain unknowable.  

Perhaps such a leap of faith is self-delusion--one cannot pronounce this belief to be empirically proven, but a leap of faith is required.   Faith, in this strange world, must be blind..or it is not "faith" at all.

12 I hear God is one hell of a tax accountant too.

13 one can fall back on "The Lord works in mysterious ways," but NOT in Robertson's view: In his vie, the Lord works in ways that are quite explicable and easy to understand. If you suffer a tragedy, you did something that offended Him. I don't see how you can square this simple input-output conception of God's wrath with the empirical evidence that justice is scare on earth, and misery common.

14

Why are you paying attention to this dipshit? (Especially when he's already been posted about.)

He's not a force in Republican politics. He's not a force in the Evangelical movement. And shitting on the asshole isn't gaining you any street cred with the Left or the MSM, it's just aiding them in their anti-conservative narrative. (Or the Left's and AP's anti-Christian narrative.)

15 And he calls himself a leading contender for 2012?  Let us pray this is not the case.

16 Her's not just nuts, he's much worse than that.

He's fucking off his rocker.

17 A more real reason for this disaster is that they lived in shoddy structures that were falling down anyway. The lesson: if you don't put the effort and investment into solid planning, you risk being screwed; nothing new to that.

18 Wow. Another post on what a dick Pat Robertson is. Seriously? What's the point?  Is anyone defending him?

19 Pat needs to re-read the gospels - Jesus' most disparaging remarks were reserved for those who engaged in holier-than-thou religious hypocrisy.

And he totally blows right over the message of Paul for the believers to "count it all joy whenever you face trials and tribulations, because the testing of your faith produces perseverance". 

20 Ok, let's have some actual theology. All death and suffering is a consequence of sin. Sin hurts yourself, others and God. Jesus Christ took that sin upon Himself to pay the ransome price to allow the gates of heaven to be opened to man. God does not punish individuals for their sins in this life. The sins themselves lead to suffering. Others sins can lead to your suffering. Death is not necessarily a bad thing to God. Now, the corrupt Haitian government, it's inability to provide a framework to promote a society which can build buildings that can stand up to their constant natural disasters is probably the consequence of sin---corruption, etc. The earthquake was not a punishment but unnecessary poverty is a punishment for allowing corruption.

21 ace: in Book of Job, didn't God rebuke Job's friends for saying the same things about Job -- that his suffering was because of some sin?

22 "If you suffer a tragedy, you did something that offended Him. "

Consider the fact that this basically was the point of view of one of Job's "friends" who came to "comfort" him in his time of utter disaster.  And when God broke in at the end of the book, He blasted the friend for it. 

23

Did God really punish Israel when they rejected Him, or did He just step out of the way and allow them to suffer the consequences of their bad behavior?

As for the Haiti earthquake, bad things happen to good and pious people all of the time. Why that is I don't think anyone can really say. Robertson really should know better, for callous statements like this often cause people to reject you and by extension your beliefs.

24 T - my thinking as well. 

25 so Pat presumes to speak for God and His actions or inactions?  almost as ridiculous as his suppositions.....

26 See this filthy whore here? She broke with God a long time ago, and now she's reaping her reward. Here, let me cast the first stone--it's the Lord's work!

27 Lord,

Please shut Pat Robertson up.

KThanx,

BC5

28 And thus the differences between Global Warming Alarmism and Religious Fundamentalism continue to blur.

29 The rules that applied in the Old Testament changed with the death of Jesus. The new covenant was on of love---doing what God asks through free will and then bearing any consequences at death. IOW, smiting went out.

30 My Dad was an ordained minister and lay preacher, and one of the best men I ever knew. He and my Mom never had a lot of money, and went through some very hard times. But he had great faith. He was a big believer that God helped those who help themselves, and that if you did your part, He would do his part. He never equated his faith with money or finances, and my Dad would have thought Pat Robertson was an idiot. I know I do.

31 Hey Pat-You know that part about "Thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain"?

You might want to think about that.

32 In mentioning the collapse of the tower of Siloam, Jesus taught that death can come upon anyone, regardless of how sinful they are. He went on to teach that the need for all people to repent is the true lesson from such tragedies

33

If you suffer a tragedy, you did something that offended Him.

In other words, you shouldn't have worn that slutty dress and been out drinkin'. To the pool table with you, and it's all your fault.

34 The vile are ever prone to detect the faults of others, though they be as small as mustard seeds, and persistently shut their eyes against their own, though they be as large as Vilva fruit. 1.Hinduism. Garuda Purana 112

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

2.Christianity. Matthew 7.1-5

35

I do not accept a God who would crush an innocent two-year old to death in agony to punish someone else's past "sin."

All these post-disaster survivors who claim "God protected us." Well, what about your dead neighbor? Was he not pious enough?

No thanks. 

36 Although, granted, Pat Robertson can be trying at times, he is a nice man, and he has a kind heart. So enough already with the cheap shots at the guy. You should have lived as productive a life as he has.

37

Trying to make human sense out of God's actions is called theodicy.

In sports terms, it can be compared to a green quarterback second-guessing the coach's play calls.

It's also a sin -- it puts Man in the driver's seat, not God -- and it's addressed in numerous places throughout the Old Testament and New Testament.

However, I can understand why a TV preacher hungry for revenue would capitalize on every major disaster with a headline-making claim like that.

38 "40 Although, granted, Pat Robertson can be trying at times, he is a nice man, and he has a kind heart. So enough already with the cheap shots at the guy. You should have lived as productive a life as he has. Posted by: A Casual Observation at January 14, 2010 11:42 AM (ITzbJ)" No. He's nuts. And he's a force for evil.

39 Well, thank God Pat Robertson said something stupid.  Now the media will be running that story out the ying yang, and Harry Reid's gaffe will be forgotten.  This non-story story will be the biggest issue of the day, not the fact that Google is threatening to pull out of China because of censorship and alleged cyber spying, and the White House said that it will "wait to comment  until China responded to Google's threat to bolt from China."  This stupid comment will be a bigger story than the non-reported story of Jonathon Gruber, the MIT economist who has been "one of the foremost promoters of Obamacare even as he had nearly $400,000 in consulting contracts with the Administration that weren't disclosed in the many stories in which he was cited as an independent authority...White House Budget Director, Peter Orszag has also relied on a letter from Mr. Gruber and other economists endorsing the Senate bill...Mr. Orszag never mentioned Mr. Gruber's contract.  Nor did HHS disclose the contract when Mike Enzi, the ranking Republican on the Senate health committee, asked specifically for a list of all consultants as part of routine oversight in July."  You have to love our lamestream media, make a mountain out of a molehill, but ignore the erupting volcano that is about to blow.

40 Just to be clear, Robertson didn't even warrant coal in his stocking.  Far too valuable. 

41 Labeling any natural disaster as God's judgment is nonsense.True “judgment begins with GodÂ’s family”1Peter4:17,not others  http://twitter.com/RickWarren

42 A friend of mine once noted that Santa is an anagram of Satan. 

Just sayin'

43 Right on, Santa!

And those aren't jelly beans in his basket, IYKWIMAITYD.

44

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.

And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

45 That was me.

46 Although, granted, Pat Robertson can be trying at times, he is a nice man, and he has a kind heart. So enough already with the cheap shots at the guy. You should have lived as productive a life as he has.

Just to be clear: We ARE talking about the same man who said God was going to kill him if he didn't raise a certain amount of money, yes?

47 Dig it, Santa and Bunnyman! 

Hey Pat... the "Pope's nose" -- I've got news for you buddy.  It ain't!  You've been biting my feathery fleshy ass.

48

When a disaster hits mankind, what needs to be stated is "What have we learned?"

Does it matter whether the disaster is natural or God sent? Going to church or praying after such disaster is nice, but building better buildings in this case is probably the better answer.

Is this what God wants? I can't say, nor do I know. But there is a lesson there.

49 Job was faithful.  The only reason for argument here is that people want to assume the best of anyone who suffers anything at all because it could be you-the whole PC victim mentality that has infected this nation for far too long.  Robertson's general error is the implication that anyone can be righteous enough to avoid any of this unpleasantness.  Christianity promises nothing of the sort, our only rewards will be received after this world passes away.  God does bless us in this world, but that tends to be about making us useful to his plans not because we are in any way owed it.

What always seems to get lost in these discussion, because people's sinful nature doesn't want them to hear it, is that everyone, Christians included, deserve this sort of disaster far more frequently than we get it and were God not to hold back His wrath in the 'random' fashion ace describes, not a single one of us would be left.

50 So enough already with the cheap shots at the guy.

Criticizing a guy for proclaiming to an audience he also solicits money from that thousands of innocent people died because centuries ago their ancestors threw in with the devil is the cheap shot.  Very cheap.  Extraordinarily cheap to the Hatian man whose wife and children were crushed to death.  "Why?" he asks.  "Because your great-great-great grandfather made a deal with Satan, sinner," he replies.

51 I'd like to join in with Santa, Bunny, and Tom, but Pat doesn't celebrate my holiday -- too devilly. 

52 I do not accept a God who would crush an innocent two-year old to death in agony to punish someone else's past "sin."

Where is your Cosmic Right to Immortality again? Can you show me scientific evidence for its existence?

And you know that two year olds go straight to heaven, right?

What "rights" does a pot have with its potter? Was it "evil" for George Lucas to kill Darth Vader or for JRR Tolkien to "kill" his characters?

Robertson is a moron. Go to the source yourself (the Bible) and read up.

53 I'm going to thump Frisco next.

54 Worth a re-post:

"Why are you paying attention to this dipshit? (Especially when he's already been posted about.)

He's not a force in Republican politics. He's not a force in the Evangelical movement. And shitting on the asshole isn't gaining you any street cred with the Left or the MSM, it's just aiding them in their anti-conservative narrative. (Or the Left's and AP's anti-Christian narrative.)"

55 Although, granted, Pat Robertson can be trying at times, he is a nice man, and he has a kind heart.

Well, judging from his actions alone: No, he is not, and no, he does not.

56 One of the best theological lessons I was ever taught was this - God is not a soda machine.  You don't put your prayers in, push a button and what you want comes out.

57 Criticizing a guy for...

Loose shite.

58 50 Although, granted, Pat Robertson can be trying at times, he is a nice man, and he has a kind heart.

You know, I've watched a little bit of the 700 Club, kind of by accident but stayed to watch because of whatever big Obama scandal was going on at the time.  In those 20 or so accumulated minutes of air time he always manages to say something patently offensive.  I feel for the ladies who end up co-hosting with him, because often it's really sexist and misogynistic.  His blatherings about Palin are particularly annoying. 

So I don't think he's a nice guy.  Pope John Paul II was a nice guy -- and ten billion times as brilliant plus tough as all get out.  Pat's a creep.

59 polynikes, two points. First of all, if you posit that God is VERY involved in the day-to-day happenings on earth, you are forced to try to offer glib explanations for everything that He does, which is why most of the faithful DON'T attempt this, and confess they do not know the Lord's plan, and he works in mysterious ways, and all the other ways to say "We do not know the mind of God." Robertson is very shoot-from-the-hip as regards the inner workings of God's mind, isn't he? Shouldn't he take a humbler stance and confess "I don't know"? Second, when calamity strikes, there is a tradition of guessing that God is testing one in some way, but that he will provide you the strength to overcome it if you ask, etc.... Robertson, I'm sure, does this too, but he also seems pretty quick to just say "God wants to punish you, not test you or strengthen you or bring you closer through faith" in many cases. How is he picking and choosing? If he has the one option and often deploys it (which I imagine he does), how does he differentiate between testings and wraths? And how is he so damn-sure confident in his ability to distinguish? Why is it that it seems he deploys the latter -- God's Vengeance -- only in headline-making big disasters? Just seems jackass. Oh, and add in this silly nonsense about a 200 year old country-wide pact with the Devil, and God deciding it's a good idea to destroy the people separated from the alleged warlocks by ten generations.

60 I love him!  He's consistent: in 1994 he said the Northridge earthquake was God smiting sinful California whores or something. 

61 >>>You should have lived as productive a life as he has. I'm not entirely sure I haven't.

62 >>>Why are you paying attention to this dipshit? (Especially when he's already been posted about.) Because it's 1) topical 2) interesting and 3) Peter Wehner had a good post about it. We shouldn't be afraid to criticize someone vaguely "on the right."

63 "Although, granted, Pat Robertson can be trying at times, he is a nice man, and he has a kind heart."

------------------------------------

Yeah, it looks it.

64 Yet when a busload of kids on their way to Bible Camp goes off a cliff, "God called them."

Funny how that works.

65

 I'm being offered money and services for my belief.

The modern Democratic party in a nutshell!

66 Amazing how all the shithouse Christian theologists know so little of what the Bible actually says. Matthew 5:45 - "...that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Can't wait for Christoph to show up with his half-assed education and "logic."

67 1.  The position cannot be proven by objective evidence.

2.  Mankind's alleged shortcomings are responsible for suffering.

3.  Those who question or are skeptical of the position are heretics.

These things describe:

A)  Robertson's theology

B)  Global Warming Alarmism

C)  Both

68 I read that 80% of Haitians are Catholic. As a dirty Papist myself, the only thing that shocks me is that Pat didn't work in that particular angle. You know, Pope = Antichrist and all that.

69 There is actually one area where the Bible makes it clear that this sort of thing can happen, but unfortunately for Robertson it's quite specific.  Genesis 12:3: "I will bless those who bless [Israel] and I will curse those who curse [Israel]".  It's not too wacky based on that quote to claim that e.g. Katrina was the result of W's attempts to fellate the Pallies, but Haiti certainly hasn't done anything to Israel.

70 Looking forward for all the atheists to gather this Sunday to help the Haitians.  Will I see you Sunday morning?

--------------------

Nah, I'll be robbing your house. Thanks for the tip!

71 Back in the 80s, Oral Roberts said if his pocket didn't get 8 million, "God will call me home." My response to Robertson is the same as to Oral: I'd pay God 8 million to take him. Preferably by lightning bolt on live TV.

72 So Ace, how about the presidents comment "there but for the grace of God, go we"?

73

Robertson thinks that God inflicts pain.

Osama thinks HE inflicts pain.

just noticing...

 

74

Well, now that ace mentions it...

I worked in mediicine for over 15yrs. I helped heal the sick, and when that didn't work, attempted to raise the dead (CPR).

So hell, I've probably done more for people than Robertson ever has. Oh, and BTW, I was living in LA when the Northridge quake hit.

No fun at all.

75 How is this news? He said the same thing after the Tsunami and 9-11. He does it after any disaster. This is like a headline reading "Water is Wet"

76 Every once in a while we have to reminded why we reject the far edge of any ideology, and Robertson certainly represents a very far edge, whether he speaks what he believes is the truth or otherwise.

Any quack can "blame God" or make other ridiculous statements, but we have the Right and - in this case - the duty to reject his statements and opinions out of hand.  I suspect he means well, but for him to KNOW that a people signed a pact with Satan is a serious stretch.  One I reject outright.

77 If God was real, he would make people earthquake-proof.

And give me a pony.  And complete power over every living thing.

78 Hey, that's nothing. Let's talk about a God of Love that presides over an abode of eternal torment. Unbaptised babies in the same pit with Hitler. And of course what we know about Hell comes from some poet who wanted to describe his enemies rivals and oppressors suffering there, rather than the actual Wholly Buybull, which says next to nothing on the subject.

79 <i>have only recently become contrary to Christian beliefs. </i>

Indeed. Plus that whole Bible thing from 2000 years ago.

80 Haiti shares the island of Hispaniola with the Dominican Republic. No natural disaster has befallen Haiti that hasn't equally or more substantially impacted DR. The devil in Haiti isn't in nature, it's in the people. There is no greater example in the western world of the effects of denying God than in the suffering of the people who do the denying.

81 Robertson's "good" that he does lies in distributing the money his followers give him, and he makes a decent living at it.

He may be altruistic, but a lot of people are, minus the bullshit baggage he brings with him.

82 <i>Unbaptised babies in the same pit with Hitler.</i>

Yup. And you will provide Biblical proof for this in...5 seconds...30 minutes...never....

83 Let's talk about a God of Love that presides over an abode of eternal torment

Because people have a RIGHT to eternal pleasure, after all.

I once asked God for the superpower of three X-men. He didn't give it to me. So I have proof that God doesn't exist.

84 Damn.  Tapper didn't even bother to Google Bois Caiman.  If he had, he might have learned that there was no "Satanic pact"--it was a Vodou ceremony.  There's no Satan in traditional Haitian Vodou--Satan is a Christian construct*; connecting him to "voodoo" is a Hollywood construct.  And calling it a "legend"?  Dutty Boukman was executed by the French for leading the meeting.  Seems pretty real.

Weird (by which I mean "disgusting) how even the culti-mulchural "all belief systems are good except Christianity and America" folks can't even be bothered to learn a few facts about indigenous religious beliefs/traditions.


* if you want to point out that Vodou is small-s satanic because it's not Christ-centered, I'll accept that.  It's still not Satan worship, and you still can't make a pact with someone who doesn't exist in your worldview.

85

I was talking with a (black) friend, and she tells me this Haiti/devil thing is alive and well in a lot of off-brand black churches, especially in the south.  They've been saying it for years.

Haiti seems to practice a (more) paganized form of Catholicism; I'm sure that helps convince people that They're Up To Something Down There.

P.S. Does this mean Pat Robertson is just the latest white guy to steal black people's stuff and make money off it?

86 Biblical proof. Now there's an oxymoron.

87 Weird (by which I mean "disgusting) how even the culti-mulchural "all belief systems are good except Christianity and America" folks

And by 'folks' you mean just one guy....

88 Biblical proof. Now there's an oxymoron.

What a hum-dinger of a zinger!

Let's try again: Please present that book, chapter and verse to back up your assertion.

Here's quick assist to help: http://www.biblegateway.com/

89

"No. He's nuts. And he's a force for evil." - Posted by: Occam's Razor at January 14, 2010 11:45 AM (YCVBL)

You are joking, right? That was tongue-in-cheek humor, right?

Robertson is a moron. Go to the source yourself (the Bible) and read up.Posted by: TTHAT at January 14, 2010 11:49 AM (GvhMc)

No rational person would consider Pat Robertson to be a "moron".  Good grief.

"Well, judging from his actions alone: No, he is not, and no, he does not".
Posted by: krakatoa at January 14, 2010 11:51 AM (vtiE6)

My, my, my, aren't we bitchy today? LOL .... Get real.

"I'm not entirely sure I haven't" -.Posted by: ace at January 14, 2010 11:55 AM (Fue76)

You're not entirely sure?  LOL, there, you see, you made my point

90 And give me a pony.  And complete power over every living thing.

Posted by: Dumb Atheist

---------------------------------------------

And give me eternal life in Paradise.

Because some people have a RIGHT to eternal pleasure, after all.

91 Go play with your X-Men.

92 If this idiot was a Democrat, or one of those Catholic Communists who support illegal immigration you would never hear any of these things he says.

93 And by 'folks' you mean just one guy

No.  It's here, it's in the NY Times, it's all over Twitter, it's all over Facebook, it's probably on the View (don't know, don't watch it).    Don't be an asshole.

94 Oh wait, you can't. They're not in the Buybull.

95 '"No. He's nuts. And he's a force for evil." - Posted by: Occam's Razor at January 14, 2010 11:45 AM (YCVBL) You are joking, right? That was tongue-in-cheek humor, right?'" No.

96 Because some people have a RIGHT to eternal pleasure, after all.

Says who?

97 <i>Don't be an asshole.</i>

I'm an atheist. What do you expect?

98 Haiti seems to practice a (more) paganized form of Catholicism

----------------------

Only fair; Christianity is a Christianized form of paganism.

Is it almost time to color our eggs for the fertility goddess Eostre?

99

I'm going to oversimplify my Christian position on this coarsely because nuance ruins the sauce:

God isn't obligated to give us, any of us, jack shit. The fact that he loves us enough to so save us is the remarkable thing. That's why we believe and follow him.

I hate when people act like God is a "spiritual ATM" with over-draft fees. Roberston, God is in Haiti but he isn't there "smiting" people and that you can't see it is proof that you're off the reservation.

100

Robertson better watch his ass, encroaching on Uncle Facts' turf by threatening to summon meteors an' shit.

Just sayin'.

101 Are atheists really compelled to extend the discussion beyond Pat Robertson and insult Christians generally? If so, what so compels you? I am interested in the psychology here. Also, "Dumb Atheist," you needn't get so defensive and insult back. I'm not really sure who "started it." I just sort of view both sides here as childish and doing thumb-in-your-eye bullshit.

102 "Because some people have a RIGHT to eternal pleasure, after all."

Says who?

--------------------------

The ones who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, silly.

103 As an actual "fundamentalist" Christian, I totally agree.  Pat Robertson is an embarrassment o Christians everywhere.  The idea that he is any at all representative of Christian thinking or Christian theology is ludicrous.

104 Is it almost time to color our eggs for the fertility goddess Eostre?

Just like Baby Santa Clause in the Nativity on Mithramas on Dec. 25. How do I know this? I went to Sunday school twice in third grade. Learned everthing I needed to know about the fraud of "Christianity."

105 On both sides, I'm interested in the defect in psychology which causes the response, "Hey, I'm talking with complete strangers who have never done me an ounce of harm; I think I'll start being snotty and insulting to them, because being unpleasant improves my life somehow."

106 I'm not really sure who "started it."

------------------------

JudahLion, #7. The believers didn't wait very long.

But I'll stop now.

107 Um, the story of Pat's bloviating doesn't have much to do with Christianity, really. It has everything to do with the fact that Pat Robertson is a dishonest, hypocritical scum-sucker. He's a disgrace to the Christian faith. And that's that.

108 The ones who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, silly.

Then why all that talk from those Xian morons about GRACE and such. They must really be irrational idiots, to say "grace that" and "grace saves" all the time when they REALLY mean "I have a right to tell God that I get to heaven."  But of course we athiests know what they are really saying...

109 The understanding of Christianity I see in many of these comments, from both sides, is as cartoonish as Pat Robertson's.

And I am highly disappointed that no one has mentioned that he is a fucking douchebag.

110

I wish the NRO link didn't link to that leftydouche Ben Smith at Politico. Isn't a transcript of the actual Robertson statements in context available?

I don't doubt Robertson has stuck his foot in his mouth; he has done it before, but Ben Smith is such a douche. 

111 Oh, yeah, and JudahLion is the obnoxious sockpuppet "Dumb Atheist", too. I won't feed his trollery anymore. Sorry.

112 "Hey, I'm talking with complete strangers who have never done me an ounce of harm; I think I'll start being snotty and insulting to them, because being unpleasant improves my life somehow."

Being an asshole completes me.

113

"count it all joy whenever you face trials and tribulations, because the testing of your faith produces perseverance".  Posted by: Intrepid at January 14, 2010 11:30 AM (92zkk)

You are quoting James 1:2 not Paul

114 What else would one expect from a Yale Law School educated holy-roller?

115 "And I am highly disappointed that no one has mentioned that he is a fucking douchebag." Hey, I'm doing my best.

116 "No."

Posted by: Occam's Razor at January 14, 2010 12:21 PM (YCVBL)

LOL ..., well, you are funny in a loony kind of a way, even ithough you're not trying to be. 

117

For whoever wrote the article in the gray box, to a lot of Christians, while the cross is extremely important, at least as important is the empty tomb.

For all who deny the existance of god and demand "scientific proof" that at least points in his direction, ask a physicist if there's some natural law along the lines of 'only nothing can come from nothing'.  Then ask yourself where did all the matter in the universe come from in the first place.  Could it be that it took a supernatural act?

On the story of the cross, I read a book years ago titled "The Case for Christ".  I believe the author was Lee Stroebbel or close to that anyway.  The main  thing that stuck with me after reading it was about human psychology.  Lots of people will die for something they believe to be the truth.  None will die for something they know to be a lie.  Yet the apostles were martyred for refusing to stop preaching that Jesus died on the cross and rose again on the third day.

Just food for thought from the least of you.

 

118 "LOL ..., well, you are funny in a loony kind of a way, even ithough you're not trying to be. " Obviously there's nothing left for me to do except concede defeat. You've run rings around me logically.

119 Yale Law School educated

Looking for Satan?  All roads lead to American law schools and the products thereof.

120 @111 - thanks ace.  You could start every thread with that comment.  Might stop some of that stuff (and maybe get rid of the "first" stuff that some people let bother them so much).

121 But will all the anti-Christians talk about all the churches and Christians who will be helping Haiti? No, they pick one loudmouth and give him a bigger platform.

And this is what pisses me off about this idiot making these comments. The vast majority of Christians think this guy's nuts. But the media will use his ignorant ass to smear all the rest of us.

122 Dumb Atheist started it? Hey, Dumb Atheist, fair warning, you are right now flirting with a ban for being a fucking asshole.

123 Assuming Dumb Atheist is a Christian... I'm pretty sure the Bible commands you to make an effort to win over converts. It doesn't compel you to be an insulting douchebag on the internet, and, in fact, doing so directly conflicts with what you are, in fact, commanded to do.

124 "But the media will use his ignorant ass to smear all the rest of us." Yes, that's the problem. It's also the reason why he should be firmly and loudly denounced.

125

Well ace, to answer your question. I was raised Catholic, became agnostic at best when I got older. But outsided of my early Liberal days, I don't really get on anyone about their religion. Their beliefs are personal, I'm not going to change their minds, and insulting them isn't doing myself nor them any good.

It would be as silly as me trying to get a gay person to go straight.

I don't know if this helps, but whatever.

126 Matthew  Chapter 5

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Yeah, the Old Testament shows God reacted pretty strongly to Israel's infidelity by punishing them for it.  It also makes pretty clear claims that God created Israel as a new nation, the chosen people, who were chosen to live life on earth according to how a nation, a family, a man, and a woman should live under God as an example to the world and so he punished them for not doing what he created them for.  Other nations, not so much. 

In every case He sent a clear-cut prophet FIRST to tell them to shape up and return to righteousness or there would be consequences. 

The Book of Jonah is a prime example.(easy read, only 4 short chapters)

127 109 As an actual "fundamentalist" Christian, I totally agree.  Pat Robertson is an embarrassment o Christians everywhere.  The idea that he is any at all representative of Christian thinking or Christian theology is ludicrous.

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at January 14, 2010 12:28 PM (DrGKS)

Betcha Pat loses a lot of sleep that he is an "embarrassment" to you.  LOL

With that silly comment, you should be an embarrassment to yourself.

128 a casual observation, maybe you are a little too personally invested in this, eh?

129

gah. you guys muscle  the religious battle  out, i've typed several paragraphs a few times and thought better of sending.

to the suffering  peoples in Haiti, i hope that humanity offers compassion, and enough emergency funds, for medical, tents, blankets, food enoughto ease Some of the suffering.

 compassion and help, the best that humanity can offer.

as for their future , another huge issue. corruptocrats inside, and outside .

 

130 And to think that this fool came within a mere 122 million votes of the Presidency back in '88. It still gives me the shivers.

131 Matthew 7:20.

QEFD

132 Robertson is a blasphemer. If "Mr. Tetragrammaton" were the Saddam Hussein clone that Pat Robertson paints him as, punishing some and rewarding others by whim in order to make them his slaves, any free and honorable man would walk into the Pit of Hell shaking his fist before giving him one iota of worship.

133 Let's watch and see if the site explodes, from all the heretical speech going on here.

Where's the guy who summons the meteors? We got a job for him, if God takes too long.

134

"Hey, Dumb Atheist, fair warning, you are right now flirting with a ban for being a fucking asshole." - Posted by: ace at January 14, 2010 12:40 PM (Fue76)

Just a thought:

You know, there are some people who would say that, by making such a threat, and by using such a sleazy attempt at intimidation by lording it over someone that your position puts that someone at a distinct disadvantage in responding to your nasty threat appropriately, you are clearly trying to salvage what little you have left of your manhood, which is pretty pathetic.

Now, I wouldn't say that, 'cause I'm a tactful and diplomatic, nice guy.

But some people would.

 

 

135

Never let a good crisis go to waste, Pat.  Well done.

136 >>Is it almost time to color our eggs for the fertility goddess Eostre?

Just like Baby Santa Clause in the Nativity on Mithramas on Dec. 25. How do I know this? I went to Sunday school twice in third grade. Learned everthing I needed to know about the fraud of "Christianity."

Posted by: Dumb Atheist

Yes, a lot of us fundies understand that the church's traditions were a way of similating pagan tribes into Christianity.  It was there way of bringing people to Jesus.   It truly doesn't matter when we celebrate Christmas...everyday should be Christmas celebrating the good news of Jesus's birth.

BTW, although I have blind faith I did not come to my faith blindly.  I can recommend historical, theological & archeological books on the subject to start you off.. so you can no longer be a " dumb" atheist.

137

Correction typo

similating=assimilating

138 This is much more entertaining than HA's Robertson thread where the standard array of self-righteous assholes comes out of the woodwork..

139 Evidently, Casual Observation has a hard time with the notion that someone should police that which is their source of income. Not that that's surprising, given his habit of antagonizing the folks who have the keys to the place.

Wait, what am I saying- he's a nice, tactful, diplomatic guy- just ask him.

140 No, ace, actually I'm more or less ambivalent about Pat Robertson. I haven't watched his show in years. But I continue to believe that he is one of the good guys.

141 I'm a Deist who's very comfortable with most Christian belief, but my conversion from atheism to agnosticism to deism was very gradual. Mostly due to assorted dickbags like Pat Robertson. Oh, and that wonderful couple who both lied to and guilt tripped me into attending their church when I was 9 yrs old. Nothing like subverting another parent's authority because you just know you're so darned right about the workings of the universe. I dislike people like Robertson far more than I dislike evangelical atheists because they do more far more harm.

142

"If so, what so compels you? I am interested in the psychology here."

As someone raised Christian who is now a theist on his way to being an atheist, I'll have a shot at it:

What compels me is not so much insulting Christians.  I'll be the first to admit that a lot of good is done by them.  Especially in this case, I expect that Christians will be the first to get there with aid.  They're usually very generous with money and time in cases like this and in countless others.  I'm also the first to admit that there is a lot of variation in Christian thought, from fundamentalism to practically-humanism.  So you can't beat up on all Christians b/c of Pat.

What I find myself doing when people like Robertson shoot off their mouth is to realize that

    1) a lot of people who are Christian would still agree with him.  Maybe not a lot of Christians here on this blog, but many more than we'd like, and

    2) his line of reasoning is defensible in Scripture, if unattractive.  For every person who remarks that Jesus said it rains on the just and the unjust, there's a person saying that God will punish the unfaithful to the "nth" generation, or mentions Sodom, while pointing out that Jesus also said that the smallest part of the law would not pass away. 

Some people snark at Christians as a way to justify their own journey from belief to atheism, too.

So while atheists can't beat up all Christians over this, Christians also can't just kick Pat to the curb, either.

143 Everythings better at Ace's, Herr. 

144

Posted by: Angie1228 at January 14, 2010 12:59 PM (AAJaO)

Go ahead and list a few Angie.  He may not want to see them but you never know, others might.  And thanks ahead of time.

145

A Casual Observer - "With that silly comment, you should be an embarrassment to yourself."

Why? 

146 I dislike people like Robertson far more than I dislike evangelical atheists because they do more far more harm.

Posted by: Warden at January 14, 2010 01:01 PM (lEqfY)

 

Exactly!

147 I was raised baptist, now occasionally attend a Nazarene church.  I have to say, never in my life - which has had its fair share of tragedies - have I ever questioned why God 'lets' bad things happen.  I don't understand that mindset at all.  It even baffles me that CS Lewis struggled with his faith after his wife Joy died.

I witnessed the death of my grandfather, watched him slip away, and in those final moments I've never been more sure of God's existence. 

It's Christians like Robertson who earn my scorn more than any athiest who scoffs at my faith.  It would do Pat well to remember that we are all at God's mercy, himself included.

And to athiests, I can only say...what do I have to lose?  If I'm wrong, I die and turn to dust and that's the end of it.  But if you're wrong?  Well.  Like I said, I've got nothing to lose.  You might, though.

148

Just because this is my last post today, one of the things I've learned from reading not only the Bible but from other ancient texts.

The last thing you want, as a human being, is to be noticed by God. Or the gods, whichever way you want to look at it.

According to all accounts, your life will go to hell.

Odd that...

149 Wow.  Some of these comments say a LOT more about many of you than they do Pat Robertson.

150 Easter is indeed named for Eostre Monath, the month named for that goddess.  It is in spring on that calendar.  The "Resurrection Celebration" almost always occurred in that month, so it got the informal name Easter.

Independence Day is July 4.  By the logic of the dipshits that call Easter "pagan", the "4th of July" is a pagan celebration of Julius Caesar.

151

Go ahead and list a few Angie.  He may not want to see them but you never know, others might.  And thanks ahead of time.

Posted by: teej at January 14, 2010 01:02 PM (c459z)

Probably the best one & the first one I read was " I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist" by Norman L. Geiser & Frank Turek

Norman Geiser was also a contributor on the Apologetic Bible which is awesome for skeptics and new believers.

Archaeological Study Bible: An Illustrated Walk Through Biblical History and Culture By Walter C. Kaiser Jr. & Duane Garrett.

152 @157 - Thank you young lady!!

153

– VIRGINIA BEACH, Va., January 13, 2010 — On todayÂ’s The 700 Club, during a segment about the devastation, suffering and humanitarian effort that is needed in Haiti, Dr. Robertson also spoke about HaitiÂ’s history. His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed.  Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was GodÂ’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. RobertsonÂ’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering.

Chris Roslan
Spokesman for CBN

154 I hope God doesn't read the ONT.

He'd be really, really pissed, according to Pat.

Crap, I think I just saw a locust fly by. I'm getting out of here.

155

Wait. So I can make a pact with the Devil and my family line will not be cursed for generations to come?

This changes everything. See you soon.

Until I get back, be thinking of how you can better serve me.

156

So while atheists can't beat up all Christians over this, Christians also can't just kick Pat to the curb, either.

Posted by: Zorachus at January 14, 2010 01:01 PM (6mZAd)

Well, no, but I think people are right to think that he of all people should know better, and some would argue even have a duty to speak up about that.  We should expect more from our fellow Christians than we would non-believers.

157 That so-called Religion of Peace really should denounce the nutbag haters within their midst. Then they'd earn the same respect that the right religion gets.

As if!

158 Doesn't he have an established pattern of this, though, making the same pronouncements about 9/11 and Katrina. It's his schtick.

I'm not making an anti-Christian stand with any of my comments, only noting the creepiness of Pat and his pronouncements.

159 The writer of this article is making the same mistake the Jews made when Jesus walked the earth.  They also had locked-in doctrines of how the Messiah should, and would, act toward them and toward their enemies.  They even had scriptures that said God would judge evil and the oppressors etc.  However The prophecies of Christ are co-mingled together in describing his first coming and his second coming.  After his first coming we could discern that He first came to suffer and offer the permanent sacrifice for sin.  Look at the cross, that is the God ordained penalty for sin...Jesus absorbed that for every human being that accepts this by faith. 

The rest of the prophecies tell of a conquering warlike Christ.  While I do not know when God is judging, neither does anyone else, are earthquakes, and natural disasters judgments from God?  How about putting a punk-ass man that hates his own country in charge of it?  Is that a divine judgment?  Don't know, but sometimes things happen that may be corrective, or punitive judgments.  For instance the Tsunami in Indonesia, just happened to be centered on the world center of the child sex prostitution market. 

New Orleans was the center of voodoo and witchcraft in the United States, certainly it was one of the most corrupt and vile cities in the U.S.  The name Katrina means (Purify).  Is that all coincidence?  Maybe, who can prove these things?  I know you had thousands of people that have never been responsible in their lives that came and lived with responsible and many times Christian people after Katrina, many others went to Houston and increased the crime rates there.  However perhaps thousands of New Orleans people received a second chance in life via that hurricane, and others are now in a city and state where eventually they will be caught and prosecuted for their crimes (which hardly ever happened in New Orleans).

Haiti is THE center of witchcraft and voodoo, in this hemisphere,  their ancestors DID make a pact with Satan to throw off the French, is this earthquake judgment?  Perhaps, if I am crushed by a building maybe I would be thinking about my sins.  Anyway the duty of Christians at this point is to show mercy and render aid, let God figure out judgments.  Pat Robertson is probably in error, in the least because he is NOT showing mercy, that is our job, God's is to show both mercy and to bring judgment.  The thing I find irritating about Robertson is he says things that really don't need to be said, let people figure it out themselves, he only brings reproach on himself and Christianity. 

For those that have some remnant of faith in God they will look at such huge upheaval and turn closer to God, for those that never had a connection with God or do not desire one, this is just bad luck or another reason to be bitter, and wonder why they were not born with lighter skin and without a Negro dialect.

And for all Americans too bad there is not another America in the earth when OUR time comes, as certainly it seems to be coming, in fact many American are suffering now like they have not since the great depression.  I know I am suffering, out of work, facing bankruptcy and watching the country I have loved being eaten by the savages now in authority.

160 164 Doesn't he have an established pattern of this, though, making the same pronouncements about 9/11 and Katrina. It's his schtick.

Posted by: Who Knows at January 14, 2010 01:21 PM (0aQsc)

It is a very human reaction to wonder, when bad things happen, what someone might have done to prompt it. This is not specific to Robertson.

As mentioned upthread, the Old Testament talks about a G-d that punishes Israel for straying. This idea is as old as Western civilization ... older. And it is a reaction that is endemic to humans.

Lastly, many have no problem identifying voodoo with the devil - and that is not a stretch, by any means. Robertson, clearly, was concerned about the Haitians and their welfare, but he was also very concerned about what he considered to be their spiritual welfare. I don't see anything he said that was bad. Ill-timed, but not bad.

161

tdpwells in #153 does the Pascal's Wager thing again.

I consider that less an argument for Christianity than as a marker for commenters too stupid to bother with.

162 Pat sends millions of dollars worth of medications to Haiti...but he happens to say something a little weird.

People sitting on their butts... doing nothing for the Haitians... are outraged.

163 How about putting a punk-ass man that hates his own country in charge of it?

The Precedent hates Indonesia?

164   145 Evidently, Casual Observation has a hard time with the notion that someone should police that which is their source of income. Not that that's surprising, given his habit of antagonizing the folks who have the keys to the place.

Wait, what am I saying- he's a nice, tactful, diplomatic guy- just ask him.

Posted by: tmi3rd at January 14, 2010 01:01 PM (g2ouy)

"Policing"? He called the guy an "asshole". I consider that to be more offensive than anything that the guy said, especially since the guy's comments were harmless.

Besides, Ace is intelligent enough, astute enough and rational enough to recognize that my point was well taken. He got my drift, I'm sure.

 (Never mind that such a vulgar, derogatory word is inappropriate and unprofessional and infantile for someone who is trying to establish his credibility on the blogosphere.)

BTW, nobody likes a brown-noser. Suppose you let Ace speak for himself.

165 169

Obama hates America, he sat in a church that damned America.  When will people realize that even though words do not mean much to us humans God takes them seriously, after all they are His invention to the point that he calls his own son "THE WORD."

We knew this about Obama, most of the morons here saw many things wrong with Mr. Wonderful and did not vote for him, however 53% of the country voted for him even knowing he sat in a Church that damned America for 20 years.  This is the central crux of all thing Obama, he is a curse to this country, this stuff is real and a price is exacted, you are watching it happen in real time and you still do not see this, or perhaps you were just being ironic?

This country is learning by harsh experience that what a person believes who you voted for is EVERYTHING, their education, their race, their gender, their experience means nearly nothing in comparison.

166

DA,

     I commend Robertson's organization for sending a lot of money over there.  I'm sure a lot of his flock sent a great deal of money.  Again, that's what Christians frequently do, to their credit.  And if I were somebody in Haiti right now, I don't think I'd care who sent me help.

    But why spoil it with nonsense like that statement?  Why bring it up at all?  Most of us never heard of such a thing.  If he'd brought it up to refute it, that's one thing.  But it looks like he didn't.  He brought it up to hang it out there.  To say something without saying it, so someone could pull it back if things got out of hand.  He's like the person who helps only so they can say "I told you so".  To paraphrase Jesus, he's probably already gotten his reward in this world for it.

167 Obama hates America, he sat in a church that damned America. When will people realize that even though words do not mean much to us humans God takes them seriously, after all they are His invention to the point that he calls his own son "THE WORD."

Posted by: Jehu at January 14, 2010 01:42 PM (wDt6V)

Of course The Precedent hates America. Everyone knows that. That was the reason that many of his supporters voted for him - those who hate the US wanted The Indonesian imbecile to destroy our country while the useful idiots liked his hate of America in that it made their white-guilt vote that much more effective (helping to really bring on the ultimate penance for the sin of being white and successful). But, America is not The Precedent's country. Indonesia is. That is where he grew up and that is where his personality (what little there is of it) was set. He thinks like an Indonesian, acts like an Indonesian and governs like an Indonesian. If the case ever got to the SCOTUS, it would be determined that he had been Indonesian and, therefore, not a 'natural born citizen'.

168 151

A Casual Observer - "With that silly comment, you should be an embarrassment to yourself."

Why? 

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at January 14, 2010 01:02 PM (DrGKS)

 

Another profound question from the enlightened one? LOL

Why? Hmmm, I'm not sure that I possess the wherewithal to address such a profound question.

But give me a few minutes to come up with an appropriate repy, and I'll get back to you.

169 173

Yes I see what you mean, however, even if it was proven he was not born here, no court would overturn a done election, not going to happen.  Only thing to save us at this point IMAO is prayer and belief that God is executing corrective judgment on America to rid us once and for all of this secular humanistic disease that ceaselessly seeks to alter the foundations of this country.  I still believe that if this country goes down then the earth goes into a dark ages that will make the last one seem like practice.

170 I am not really sure there is a non-childish version of Christianity, and I certainly agree with your criticism of Pat Robertson.

171 Yes I see what you mean, however, even if it was proven he was not born here, no court would overturn a done election, not going to happen.

I'm not saying that he wasn't born here. He probably was (though we definitely need to have this officially verified, because no one knows .... heck, they still can't say which hospital he was born at) but that he grew up in Indonesia, likely had Indonesian citizenship, and is an Indonesian much more than an American. I made this point all through the campaign, as it was clear that The Precedent had not one bit of American sensibilities about him.

As to our courts defending our Constitution, I agree with you that there is not enough integrity and courage among our judges and justices to perform that function properly (look at how the SCOTUS happily allowed the rape and pillaging of constracts, when the federal government wants to). Affirmative action and the fear of our SCOTUS to hold a minority to the same standard as a white person is a fatal disease that is killing us from within. No one had any problems raking McCain over the coals for the problems with the particulars of his birth and McCain never tried to run away from answering that issue.

Only thing to save us at this point IMAO is prayer and belief that God is executing corrective judgment on America to rid us once and for all of this secular humanistic disease that ceaselessly seeks to alter the foundations of this country. I still believe that if this country goes down then the earth goes into a dark ages that will make the last one seem like practice.

Posted by: Jehu at January 14, 2010 02:00 PM (wDt6V)

Again, I agree with the bulk of what you say above. If America falls - not so much America, but the American creed, whether the US continues to exist or not - then the world goes into a very dark time, indeed, and that darkness will extend to the colonies that start appearing in space. We need the American creed to continue to exist as Man goes into space so that we will set decent governmental structures for our colonies. The world got very lucky that Britain used commercial mechanisms for colonizing America, leading to the development of the US. Without that luck of British commercial expedition, the whole world would look like Central and South America, where the pathetic Spanish system was used to colonize them and formed cultures that are stagnant, backward and continually resistant to individual liberty and property rights.

But, I don't see the American creed continuing to be carried by the US. Our nation has too many idiots in it and the last election showed what the idiots can do on a whim (and that our courts and other official arms will not defend the American creed in the face of political correctness and the assumed hyper-sensitivities of protected groups).

To me, secession is the only event that can save the American creed for the 21st century. Our nation is too far gone, now, and too many taboos and traditions have been broached and broken by this America-hating administration and Washington junta of useful idiots.

172 Give 'em hell, DA. I like your style, albeit a little perfunctory at times.

173

I am not a PR fan but--

 

First of all, PR never said that the earthquake was GodÂ’s judgment on Haiti.

 

Second, his story about the demonic beginnings of HaitiÂ’s republic is an idea that has had currency for a long time. You can look it up in Wikipedia, not exactly an organ of the Religious Right.

 

Third, the idea that no one can know God or his intentions runs counter to the whole purpose of the Bible. The claim of Scripture, whether you accept it or not does not matter, is that God is revealing Himself to mankind precisely so that they can know who He is, who we are, and what His will and plan for us is.

 

Fourth, listen again, PR does not judge or condemn the Haitians. He bids others to pray for them and to contribute to their material relief.

 

Finally, does anyone really want to argue against the proposition that 80% of the population practicing a syncretic mix of Catholicism/voodoo/demonic animism has had a deleterious effect on life in Haiti? Likewise, is it really so preposterous to believe that if 80% of the Haitians had been garden variety Presbyterians, Conservative Jews, Mormons, etc. these past two hundred years, that they wouldnÂ’t be in significantly better shape than they are now?

174

A Casual Observer - "Another profound question from the enlightened one? LOL"

No, it was a questioned asked so as to find out what your line of reasoning was.

However, after looking at your other posts on the thread, I'm guessing that you didn't have a line of reasoning, so it's a moot point.

 

175 Padraic, you make too much sense. You realize, don't you, that, by their own admission, people like you are  antagonizing the loonies who comprise the bulk of bulk of the people who post here? 

176

Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at January 14, 2010 03:02 PM (DrGKS)

Just for that, I won't reply to your inquiry. Too bad, too, 'cause here I was giving such much thought to another one of your silly comments. Alas. (sigh)

BTW, what was your question again? 

177 I wonder what pact with the devil Robertson is refering to.  Most Haitians are Catholic.

178 It's just good business for Big Religion TV evangelists like Pat Robertson to preach that doing good things (like dedicating your life savings to their TV ministry) makes you rich and happy and doing bad things (like, well... whatever they can cherrypick) brings disaster and disarray.  The Megachurches down here in the South are full of "God will get you money" snake-oil salesman who will tell you that any donated money will come back to you sevenfold.

My father, who is a real preacher for 40 years, despises these guys.

179 As a Christian, I'd like to emphasize something others have said here: not only do most of us have little but contempt (and sorrow) for TV evangelists, but the Bible unequivocally does not teach that if you do good things will be nice for you and if you do bad they'll go poorly. It actually teaches that if you're a good Christian, chances are things will go very hard for you and you may even die. It teaches that the wicked often do prosper and do well... in this world.

180 My favorite preacher was Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider

181 The most ancient book of the Bible, Job exists almost entirely to make the point that good and bad fortune in this world are not the result of ones observance and sanctity. Robertson should know this. 183, most Haitians are nominally Catholic, a religion which Robertson does not seem to recognize as truly Christian. And yes, a majority of Haitians acknowledge if not actually practice voodoo. They consider the Christian God, Bon Dieu Bon supreme, but if you want something in this world you make offerings to the lesser pantheon.

182

Pat RobertsonÂ’s argument is as neat and clean as a mathematical equation: God grants blessings and curses on nations and people based on their allegiance and obedience to Him. If things are going well, youÂ’re living right; if things are going badly, youÂ’re living wrong. And it is Robertson himself who can divine the hierarchy of sins that most trouble God.

Holy shit. I think I heard a version of that being spewed by Ayman al-Zawahiri.

183

Thanks for the fresh batch of idiocy, Pat!

No, you're not disgracing Christians everywhere! What would give you that idea?

184 Padraic, you make too much sense. You realize, don't you, that, by their own admission, people like you are  antagonizing the loonies who comprise the bulk of bulk of the people who post here?

Both of you are stretching.  No one is suggesting that Robertson is an idiot because he suggested that Haiti's citizens might be generally better off had they embraced a different religion.  That's not what he said.  Robertson clearly implied that the earthquake was the result of a curse brought upon Haiti by a long-ago pact with the devil. 

That suggestion is "loony."  And incredibly unfair and hateful to many thousands of innocent men, women and children who lost their lives - to suggest that they and their families somehow deserved it.

You go down to Haiti and look a survivor in the eye and tell them "Too bad your daughter was crushed to death.  Maybe your ancestors shouldn't have dealt with the devil, huh?"

 

185

Robertson's nearly as batty as Rosie O', and that's pretty freakin' batty.

As pointed out before, every time he says something this stupid he empowers every whiny little leftist in the world to lump all conservatives and Christians in with the 700 Club.

Well, at least it may inspire Ace, AP, and CJ to a reunion of their old Atheists' Circle Jerk Club . . . good times, good times . . .

186 I am not really sure there is a non-childish version of Christianity, and I certainly agree with your criticism of Pat Robertson.

Ace: Non-Asshole comment unworthy of banning?

187  Why bring it up at all?

Why bring up his comments? Pat said something weird. You've never said anything off the cuff? That get's headlines over the possible death of 100,000+ people due to an earthquake. That get's headlines over a $1M+ donated in aid. 

Doses Jesus care what you say? Or what you do? Probably both, but He likely cares more about the second.

188 You go down to Haiti and look a survivor in the eye and tell them "Too bad your daughter was crushed to death.  Maybe your ancestors shouldn't have dealt with the devil, huh?"

You mean after the survivor survives because of the aid / medicine (and prayers) that Robertson is sending?

189 DA,

He should be praised for the good he does and criticized for the bad.  That he is offering and delivering support is to his great credit.  But that does not cancel or erase his very stupid and hurtful statement.

And do not deceive yourself.  This was not an isolated, "off-the-cuff" statement.  He has a very long history of pronouncing that catastrophic events are caused by God's wrath.

190 That he is offering and delivering support is to his great credit.  But that does not cancel or erase his very stupid and hurtful statement.

But what get's the headlines?

What actually helps people survive a disaster? Words or medicine?

He has a very long history of pronouncing that catastrophic events are caused by God's wrath.

So does the Bible.  It's part of the storyline.

  This was not an isolated, "off-the-cuff" statement.

And each time the MSM hypes it up, and lemmings fall for it. Sad.

191

Angler

 

No one is suggesting that Robertson is an idiot because he suggested that Haiti's citizens might be generally better off had they embraced a different religion. 

 

Really? You mean we're all in agreement with PR that Haitians would be a lot better off if they had repented of voodoo and practiced some mainline Christian or Jewish faith? I missed that in the comments.

 

Robertson clearly implied that the earthquake was the result of a curse brought upon Haiti by a long-ago pact with the devil. 

 

With respect, no--that's what you have inferred*, and that's what a lot of people wish he had said. It's called a "straw man."  They would rather rant about what he didn't say than deal with what he did assert.

 

Which is, that the catholic/voodoo/animist religion that has been Haiti's signature for centuries has brought them poverty and misery. He thinks it's been a curse to them. Perhaps someone would like to argue against PR's proposition and explain why it's been a blessing.

 

*"Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was GodÂ’s wrath." (CBN)   I'm going to take CBN at their word. Given his track record, if PR wanted to say that the earthquake was God's wrath, I'm sure he would have had no trouble affirming that in follow-up releases.

192 "Whatsoever you do unto the least of these my children, you do unto me."

"The poor will always be with you."

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." --Jesus

It's complicated.

My understanding of it, having suffered this year through the protracted deaths of my beloved sister and mother, is that the phrase "all things work together for good for those who love God" means that suffering is transmogrified into something precious and ennobling if you can hang onto your faith that life can mean something transcendently good. Not that it's not agony while it's going on.

Persian poet Omar Khayyam [sp?] in the Rubaiyat said something similar: that the suffering we endure in this life is the knife of the Almighty hollowing us out like a flute, so that we can make sweet music.

The great mystery is why it has to be so fucking painful.

My sister reported back to us, after she revived from that first near-death coma: "I have to tell you that I heard all of you while I was in the coma. You were saying 'I love you!' and I was trying to say 'I love you, too!' but you couldn't hear me.... And I saw God, and Jesus. God I knew, sort of, but I wasn't sure about Jesus. But They're everything we were told They were--and They're all love. And whenever I die, it's okay, because I'm not really going anywhere. We're all one, and it's all about love, really."

She also said, "I finally, finally believe that you all love me."

I still miss her acutely. And hope to see her later.

193 I'm not sure whether you agree with Robertson's comment or not.

If you don't, and if you support the other things that Robertson does, then you should be angry with him.  Yes, the MSM looks for opportunities to pounce upon his more stupid statements.  The point is, he should know that, and refrain from giving them the ammunition they so desperately wish to use to destroy him and tarnish others who share his beliefs.  That he doesn't know this is what is sad.  That he actually believes that these people were killed because they did not believe as Robertson believes God wants them to is sadder.

194 Hey Pat... the "Pope's nose" -- I've got news for you buddy.  It ain't!  You've been biting my feathery fleshy ass.

PROTESTANT! to the stake with ya!

195 Do you remember Miss Sally on Romper Room holding up her mirror and saying, "I see Susie and I see Bobbie and I see Joey..."?

Years ago, I watched The 700 Club a few times.  Pat Robertson had a segment in which he received a "word of wisdom" from the Lord about miraculous healing of various people.  It was fantastic the way that God timed those segments to end when it was time for a commercial.

Pat with eyes squeezed shut:  "A woman in Texas is receiving a healing in her hand, her hand has been bothering her for some time but the Lord has healed it, praise the Lord, receive that healing in the name of Jesus!  A man in Tennessee has been having trouble with his blood pressure but you can feel the Lord working on you right now and you are healed!  Praise Jesus, claim that healing, your blood pressure is going to be normal...  etc...  We thank you, Lord, for these marvelous acts of healing."

Pat opens his eyes:  "And now it's time for a commercial break..."

God and Pat TCB.

196 With respect, no--that's what you have inferred*, and that's what a lot of people wish he had said. It's called a "straw man." 

Please.  He told the story "some people might not want to hear."  He said the Haitians, while under French rule, made a pact with the devil - that they would serve him if he helped them rebel against the French.  He said the devil agreed.  And that ever since Haiti has been subject to curse after curse.  He said this in direct reference to the earthquake.  He has said similar things in reference to hurricanes and other disasters.

You can fool yourself into believing that he did not flat-out imply that the earthquake was the direct result of a pact with the devil.  You will only be fooling yourself.

197

tdpwells in #153 does the Pascal's Wager thing again.

I consider that less an argument for Christianity than as a marker for commenters too stupid to bother with.

Posted by: Zimriel at January 14, 2010 01:27 PM (9Sbz+)

Dead thread now, I'm sure, but can't let that out in the ether without replying that I never said it was an argument for Christianity.  I said it's my reply to those who scoff at my faith - I choose not to argue with people about my beliefs.  People can believe what they want.  That you choose to consider that my being stupid says more about you than me.  Way to judge.

198 Unsolicited advice for Ace; stay away from Christianity, Christians, Religions other than the RoP* and Preachers.  Just. Stay. Away.

Friendly advice, and I don't mean to judge.  I'm not saying Robertson is right or wrong or insane.  But, there are things you may never understand. 

Some Evangelical may care about your soul, but I'm kind of meh.  Some Believers are selfish that way.  We're saved and your not?  meh.

* Religion of Peace

199 Thanks

200 "So that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." -Matthew 5:45 Paraphrase: God sez, "Stop tryin' to figure out my next move." Robertson tends to fall prey to head-up-his-ass disease a lot when he tries to be the smartest, most theologicalest guy in the room. Like his declaration after Katrina -- God's payback for the gayness of N'Orleans. These absurd pontifications are thoroughly unfounded and do nothing more than provide fodder for the Matthewses, Olbermanns, and Maddows of the world with which they can browbeat all of Christendom. To his defense, in the fuller context, Robertson did suggest that his sympathies lay with the suffering people of Haiti, but that little "pact with the devil" history lesson was stupid as it gets.

201 Let's remember that Haiti is 80% Catholic and 100% voodoo.
Ok. with that overstatement we go on to my opinion.

FIRST - RedEye on Fox had it best:

Is it worse for Roberts who says "Haiti made a deal with the devil to get rid of the French" but his TBN has sent millions of dollars over the years and many volunteers to Haiti to help its people.

OR

Is it worse for us who don't make that statement but don't donate either?


Second - that interview (ACE you've got to get the youtube clip) of the Haitian Ambassador going after Roberts and saying that AMERICA OWES HAITI a huge debt of gratitude money because when Haiti overthrew the French after a 12 year guerrilla campaign, the French gave America's Thomas Jefferson the Louisiana Purchase. (btw: the ambassador should not stoop to arguing with Robertson at this time.)

So if a = c and b=c then a =c.

La Raza states the southwest (up to and including Colorado, Utah, Texas, California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona) is really the property of Mexico and all anglos have to be kicked out (this line is a speech from LaRaza's president at a recent rally in Arizona).

Haitian Ambassador states that its the slaves who overthrew the French that helped America get the Louisiana Purchase (everything west of the Mississippi River) so all some of the wealth that comes from the land mass under that treaty signed over 200 years ago, should go to Haiti's coffers.


Thirdly - if anyone bothered to watch the full segment of Robertson's speech, they would have seen a typical rhetorical device used to get results: there's a problem with Haiti (the pact with the devil) and we (the viewers of the 700 club) need to help the people see God's love working over the land (send money).

Lastly - Robertson has in the past said that catholics are not really christian. As a catholic I could take offense, but knowing the underlying thesis that Robertson uses to make this statement, I can understand it, but not agree with it, which means: taking offense at something Robertson says without putting it in context is a) ridiculous and b) a waste of time.

Move along....these are not the droids you're looking for....

(ps: allahpundit can kiss my sweet cheeks)

202 I've been telling people for years that Robertson is losing his mind. I honestly think he's either suffering from dementia or Alzhaimers.

203 esendiziler