1

And how are they planning to keep these taxes from hittingthose who make less than $250k?

Or is that also off the table now, as well?

2 I was having cheery conversations with my friend today about the decline and fall of the United States, using an entirely different tact. Good of you to remind me how your socialist in chief will also destroy your economy (and make your population dependent) along the way. There are so many separate issues leading to your fall it's hard to keep track of them all.

3 Charles Krauthammer said this was coming.

4 I promised that you wouldn't see your taxes go up ONE dime. Obviously this will be a lot more than ONE dime, so stop the racist vitriol and pay up

5 A VAT tax will just precede even more spending and even bigger budget deficits. This guy can't help himself.

6 .....and to make matters even worse (if that's possible), my job requires I spend a considerable amount of time in Europe - where the average VAT rate is 19.8%!!!

Just what we need - a new19+% tax - on top of every other tax we presently pay, including the newly imposed Health Care tax

7

#1 Silly little mortal, did you think that The Won would actually keep that promise?

Cute little trap The Won has set.

It might have been a bit too clever and a bit too fast. 

In the end, there will be only financial chaos.

8

Who is Paul Volcker you might ask.

Wasn't he one of the awesomely smart people who knew with absolute certainty that there were no WMDs in Iraq?

9

Or is that also off the table now, as well?

BWAAHAHAAA......Did you say table?  What table?  That's just it there never was a freaking table sucka!

10 Did I mention that anyone that opposes the VAT will be considered a racist?

11

Who is Paul Volcker you might ask.

Wasn't he the Fed Chairman who, when told that his policies would cause unemployment to increase, said "I certainly hope so"?

12 1

And how are they planning to keep these taxes from hittingthose who make less than $250k?

Simple, dummy...if you don't earn $250,000...don't buy anything...at all

That way you avoid the VAT tax..

What are you??..totally cluless or something?

13 I'm sure our responsible, underfunded, spendthrift government will use this additional money wisely. 

14 You know what?  I was called a a kook on a certain other blog when I said this nearly two years ago.  I said there would be a VAT in the very near future if Obama was elected and was mocked as a Paultard by that blog.  Guess what?  I was right.

15 Malaise forever!

16 How it will go: 1. GOP takes the House but not the Senate. 2. House passes funding bills featuring massive budget cuts. 3(A). Bambi demagogues, threatens to veto everything that isn't exactly what he wants. 3(B). Bambi threatens to cut vital services if he doesn't get his way. 4. House bill dies/is radically altered in Senate, with 2 or 3 RINOs crossing the aisle (I'm looking at YOU, Lindsey). 5. VAT stays, cannot be repealed until 2013 at the earliest, people get used to it, GOP decides it's too useful. This is how socialism comes -- not all at once, but in increments.

17

If you've ever wondered why Western Europe has a chronic double-digit unemployment situation..

..I belive you've got your answer here

18 Well, I can't say I'm suprised. 

19 Thanks, 52!

20 You forgot option 3 Drew : Republicans get hammered by press and agree to tax increases with modest "spending cuts"(actually decreases in the rate of growth of spending).

21 Tee-hee.

22 Hmm.  Raising taxes during a recession.  When have we tried this before?

23 I'm pretty sure blaming this on Bush will work just fine.

24 Why not simply argue that we can provide the best, free, medical care, with no limits on treatment. Without raising taxes. Just kick out every illegal, and every descendant of illegal, by making the 14th Amendment a "living Constitution" ala the 10th and 2nd! That we can provide the best, free, bi-annual breast cancer, prostate cancer, cervical cancer screening and treatment. All it will cost is kicking every descendant of illegals out plus the illegals here? Mexicans will NEVER vote Republican anyway, and that way Republicans get all the White votes. Spoils along racial lines. Barry has played the race card, so play it right back at him. Traps work two ways. If you don't have the guts to work it that way, simply push for eliminating O-Care, a totally private insurance, by pointing out that the "Effective Treatment Boards" are rationing, and will RATION ACCORDING TO PC PULL AND RACE. No one trusts Barry -- he's lost White voters. Make that pay. Make Obama and Dems lose, lose, lose among White voters terrified, rightly that they will be BACK OF THE BUS for health care.

25 "Don't gloat too much Christoph." I'm hardly gloating. My point with my friend was, "... and with it world peace."

26

You see, when wealthy people make money, they take that money and they put it into a big pile on their floor.  Then they lay on that pile and breathe fire at anybody who tries to touch it.

Obviously, we need the government to go in there and take that money from them, because they are evil.  Just because they created that wealth doesn't mean they know how to use it better than the cronies and lickspittle I appoint to spend it.

27 I feel dizzy...

28

Wasn't Obama looking out for the retirees back in Oct. 2008? Didn't he imply that if the Republicans had had their way, retirees' Social Security money would have disappeared in the stock market crash?

So, getting back to those retirees that President Obama cares so much about: These are the people who enjoyed relatively little by way of sales taxes. Instead, they had their income taxed. So they paid money-coming-in taxes while money was coming in, and they'll pay money-going-out taxes as the money goes out.

Thanks, old people, for defeating Tojo and Hitler and for all of your service to your companies and your communities and your families over the last 70 years.

Now pay up, suckers.

29 poor man is senile anyway.
had a good run in the 80's, and we should all appreciate that he helped Reagan give us 25 years of prosperity (you're welcome bubba) but he's obviously past dithering the dithering stage and at the point where if he starts masturbating in public just smile and look keep the children away.

30

EMBRACE PATRIOTISM.

31

"You forgot option 3 Drew : Republicans get hammered by press and agree to tax increases with modest "spending cuts"(actually decreases in the rate of growth of spending)."

Surely you don't mean a type of George HW Bush capitulation?

32 F'ing fantastic plan.

Spend like a drunken starlet in a bad economy.

Then tax people who are already unemployed and have no money to spare.

And by f'ing fantastic plan, I mean a f'ing fantastic plan that will indeed destroy America.

On the other hand, we're not going to have to wait for the collapse, Iran/Norks/Chinese/Russians/Venezuela/etc. will nuke us first and Bambi will surrender.

33 No one trusts Barry -- he's lost White voters. Make that pay.

Obama's best outcome is something akin to Helter Skelter so I'm not sure this is an incentive for him.

34 Invest in China. Now. This place is finished.

35 If you like your income tax you can keep it.  And if you like a VAT tax, you can keep that too.

But if you make under $200,000.00 a year, your taxes, VAT tax, income won't go up one red cent.  Not one red cent.

Besides, all spending is stimulus, isn't it?  And, brother, we're going to be stimulating the shit out this economy.  With your money.

Fired Up!  (I can still say that, cause, well, I'm the President)

Ready to Go!

36 The time to voice your anger is NOW.  All these trial balloons are to 'test the waters of public opinion'.  They need to be told FUCK OFF!

37 This is the tax that we've been waiting for.

38 What's next? Taxing all proceeds of hobos urban outdoorsmen whom redeem every recyclable for deposit or scrap?

A VAT would be the utter murder of our comma patient of an economy at this point. (Not that the nanny statists have nothing against government sponsored euthanasia). It would also guarantee a stagnant welfare state until civil disorder over the scraps collapses whatever vestige of a nation is left.

These stupid bastards really think they can keep themselves in power by bribing people with their own tax money. Don't they notice that every other idiot whom has ever ran a Ponzi scheme has always ran out of other peoples' money and been torn apart (literally, figuratively, and in litigation) by the ensuing angry mob?

39

I say let the dems pass the VAT with 50 dem votes and biden breaking the tie.

No GOP votes for it. Then Obama is toast in 2012. Palin (ok or someone else) runs on (among other things) repealing the VAT tax that hits every single american poor rich young old!

40 But what really can we do if we only take back the house? Two years is an awfully long time to be obstructionists, since there would be no way in hell of getting anything past the senate/Slowbama. They've already thumbed their nose at the populace, they ain't a-gonna change now.

Or do we have to rely on squishie dems that are up for re-election in '12 to get stuff past the senate? When at that point unless unicorns shitting skittles actually appear, won't make a lick of difference.

41 I seriously doubt if there are even a dozen republicans who realize what a huge win it would be for the government to be shut down for a few months.

42 What business would hire anyone, unless it's absolutely necessary, with the prospect of even more taxes on the horizon? Not a sane one.

43

20 You forgot option 3 Drew : Republicans get hammered by press and agree to tax increases with modest "spending cuts"(actually decreases in the rate of growth of spending).

Thanks for that sobering thought, Dr. S.  We all remembered what happened to G HW Bush when he tried to play ball with the Dems using taxes to balance the budget.

44 Oh, and don't think they'll eliminate income tax either. And your 401(k)? Fuggedaboutit.

45

"I feel dizzy..."

Here here....let me take you home...just let me hold your drink while you get into the car...no, I know this isn't the way you usually get home.  I know a different route...

46

Smooth move, Ex-Lax(es).

These campaign ads in 2012 will essentially write themselves if this happens and employment is still essentially at 10%.

Obama will be finished.

/silver lining?

47 Paul Volker, Spring 2009: Publicly complaining that JugEars won't meet with him and TurboTax Timmeh doesn't run anything past him, even though the Administration made a big deal about Volker's advisory role.

Paul Volker, Spring 2010: Sacrificial lamb on the altar of VAT.

Brother, you should have seen that one coming.

48 A VAT is a national sales tax that, like state and city sales taxes, would be collected by retailers.

Liars.  It's not a sales tax.  It's charged at every stage of production.

49 The VAT is perfect.  The proles don't notice it.  The only ones that complain are those crazy racist teabaggers, who are racist.  We already have at least 5000 new programs to spend this money on.  By the time the proles know what hit them, they'll be so wedded to our federal programs that DNC-approved unionized govt workers will be wiping their asses for them.  Permanent majority, baby.

50 What Hoyer really said was: "We need to find a compromise between the baseline irresponsible spending of the past and the new recklessly irresponsible spending of today and the future.  We should then raise taxes as the other part of this compromise."

51 A VAT actually has certain advantages as a tax. It taxes consumption and not income production. So it encourages savings. It has to be set LOW enough so as not to drive too much of the economy underground. Replacing some income taxes with a VAT makes sense, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Democrats plans.

52 I'd be all for replacing the income tax with the VAT, never happen.

53 The Second American Revolution, like the first, will be triggered over tax issues.  Ironically, the aim will be to restore what we once fought for and won, but lost along the way.

54 Surprise, surprise!  Keep Volking that chicken, Obama.

55

Here's a refresher from Econ 093: When stuff costs more, people buy less of it.

If $100 worth of stuff costs $105 because of a new 5% tax, people will only buy $95.24 worth of stuff because they only have $100 to spend. It will happen. It can't not happen.

(Econ 093: Remedial Concepts is a requisite course for Econ 101.)

56 Replacing some income taxes with a VAT makes sense, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Democrats plans. Which will not happen. We will not have income tax OR a VAT; we will have income tax AND a VAT (probably 7 or 8 % to start, then slowly rising to European levels).

57

Volcker, at the New-York Historical Society, told a panel on the global financial crisis that Congress might also have to consider new taxes on carbon and energy.

VAT plus carbon, plus health care, plus energy taxes?  What the hell won't be taxed after all this? 

There aren't enough hiding tricks that will prevent everybody from getting hit hard with this garbage. If the Dems are successful in instituting these new taxes, everything will be in chaos before this stuff can be rescinded after 2012 (under a Pres Palin, or whomever).

58 A VAT actually has certain advantages as a tax. It taxes consumption and not income production.

Yes, let's punish people who work for businesses that produce things.  Brilliant!

59 What the hell won't be taxed after all this?

Abortion.

60

It's not a sales tax. It's charged at every stage of production.

So, ultimately, it's paid by ...

61 What the hell won't be taxed after all this?

We're looking at a blog tax next, actually, with a graduated blog-comment tax system.

62 I think I heard it would take a 12% VAT to replace income taxes.   What I can't find is some sort of objective analysis of what a VAT would do to the price of, say, a new car at 1%, 5%, 10%. 

People aren't going to like a VAT, but they aren't going to like it even more when it's explained that the price of a common item jumps 20% overnight, say.

63  If the VAT replaced the income tax, that would be okay.  Thats not what they are going to do.  The VAT will be in addition to the income tax.

64

52 A VAT actually has certain advantages as a tax. It taxes consumption and not income production

It taxes EVERYTHING, you fucking idiot...not just consumption. it DOES NOT encourage savings as it will take more $$$$$ to ANYTHING.

It will have the effect of an income tax as WAGES WILL BE DRIVEN DOWN to offset this idiocy

65 Who is Paul Volcker you might ask.

I might, if  I didn't already know who he was, another in a long line of libertard asshats stealing money from my wallet to pay for their misguided overreaching social agenda. 

Yup, just another in what seems to be and endless series of worthless liberal/socialist/communists that wants to steal my hard earned money so he can buy more votes and hence more power for himself and his friends, and while he steals from me the fruits of my labors he has the audacity to try and make me feel guilty for having earned it in the first place.

You see I don't need to ask who Paul Volcker is, I already know.  He's the latest in a long line of thieving bastards who want to make sure I die broke so that he and his buddies can dole out every dime I've ever made to a bunch of worthless leeches most of whom have never worked a day in their life.

Ya, I know exactly who Paul Volcker is.

66

#60 Abortion.

Sobering point.

67 #52 Christoph, A VAT wouldn't be a problem if all income based taxes and most other 'fees' were eliminated. But that isn't in the nature of the government beast. Congress will never relinquish a revenue stream and any replacement tax for existing ones would quickly become an additional tax due to a permanently manufactured 'budget crisis'.

68 What I can't find is some sort of objective analysis of what a VAT would do to the price of, say, a new car at 1%, 5%, 10%. 

Posted by: grognard at April 07, 2010 02:47 PM (v0kvW)

 

Google that using "luxury tax" instead of VAT.  The luxury tax pretty much wiped out the high end car market along with expensive boat builders.

69 Actually we will have income tax and a VAT and the world's highest corporate tax rate.

70 "Yes, let's punish people who work for businesses that produce things. Brilliant!" The US has a high personal credit utilization rate and an excedingly low savings rate. Shifting some taxes away from income and toward consumption makes sense. It's a better tax for the economy and its citizens, if it's low enough so as not to drive too much of the economy underground, than would be the equivalent amount of income tax. Of course, the Democrats won't be shifting away from income taxes anytime soon.

71

And your 401(k)? Fuggedaboutit.

I've already decided that if when they required that 401(k)s be rolled over into gov't monies instead of the stock market (or wherever the hell they are now, I'm not clear on the details), I'ma take the hit and get my money out. It'll probably be less than $1,000 if it's in the next year or so, but still -- I'd feel better with it stuffed in my mattress than floating around in some treasury-backed cloud of good feelings.

72

I note with some interest that no one has mentioned what the STATES that are staring into the abyss are going to do.

Repeat after me:  It's the spending, stupid. 

73 35 Invest in China. Now. This place is finished.

Posted by: TexasJew at April 07, 2010 02:36 PM (R+KMC)

China is an illusion. We go down, and the whole world is finished.

74 64  If the VAT replaced the income tax, that would be okay.  Thats not what they are going to do.  The VAT will be in addition to the income tax.

Posted by: Hammer at April 07, 2010 02:47 PM

This kind of stupidity makes my hair hurt. The cummulative effects of the VAT far exceeds a sales tax..

...and who pays it??..you...me..

Let me make this clear...there is no such thing as a corporate income tax. Corporations do not pay taxes..they simply pass that along to us.

 

75

there will be no VAT tax if the GOP takes the House ...  the House has to start any bill with a VAT in it  ...  no bill with VAT, no VAT ...  the Senate cannot amend and ADD in the VAT ...

No VAT if we take the House ...

 

76 And Obama will be re-elected

77

#75  China is an illusion. We go down, and the whole world is finished.

China's another financial disaster in the making, as they make entire cities on speculation. 

/End, only chaos.

78

. If the Dems are successful in instituting these new taxes, everything will be in chaos before this stuff can be rescinded after 2012

That's why none of their bullshit will kick in until 2012-2014.

79
More powerful than a neutron bomb,praise be to Allah!

80

Shifting some taxes away from income and toward consumption makes sense.

"Shift" is the key word there and that is most assuredly NOT what is being proposed.

81

In my opinion, this is not going to happen.  This can't be spun like Healthcare reform because of its complexity, ambiguity and give aways.  This is something that will be easily understood as a direct effect on people's pocketbooks

Do you really believe that the idiots who rammed healthcare down our throats despite the huge polling against it ...and knowing full-well all the disastrous consequences...are going to care if we don't like it??

82 So, ultimately, it's paid by ...

Minus the cost of compliance, bookkeeping, etc.  Oh, wait, accountants and copy machines and postage materialize out of thin air, just like at the records room at the doctor's office.  Stupid Radish!

83 And don't you poor folks worry.  Basic economic fairness will require VAT tax relief for lower income Americans.  Kinda like the E.I.T.C., but more fair.  Here's how it'll work:

Using your USVAT debit card we'll issue to you, everytime you make a purchase from government approved vendors, we'll add 25% of the purchase price to your account!

In this way, the new VAT tax will be fair for everyone with the added bonus of just goosing the shit out of consumer spending.

84

No VAT if we take the House ...

They damn well know that.

If they decide on a VAT, they'll pass it before January.

85

Let me make this clear...there is no such thing as a corporate income tax. Corporations do not pay taxes..they simply pass that along to us.

Pffft....the next thing you will tell me is that the profit margin on oil is in the six to eight percent range.

86 Hey beedubya, sorry your hair hurts.  Now go get your shine box!

87 Those campaign promises are no longer "operative."

Haven't you idiots noticed how bad our debt is?  I mean, taking tax increases off the table would be irresponsible.

88

We go down, and the whole world is finished.

Word up, or true dat ....

89

They can VAT a f'in dead-horse all they want. Factors outside the control of DC are coming to bear on Amerikwa.

RINOs = Dims, and no Political Parasite is gonna go willingly. Only some kind of Third Party will make any difference on the political stage. How essential is it ? You can tell by how adamantly RINOs scream against it. The Dims won't mind  - shit, they got 52% of the vote BEFORE they give blanket amnesty to LaRaza.

Smirking chimpazoid Christoph ? ...  love the abfab Euroweenie name !  Listen up mon pauvre petit ... you and other members of le Fraternite Booboisie are not gonna be so happy when the infrastructure of Civ falls down. There won't be much value to be offered by Cliff-notes level of competency, or intellect. Familiarity with Derridau or Foucalt, or that Obongo sticker you got on your ride ain't gonna amount to squat.

90 Let me make this clear...there is no such thing as a corporate income tax. Corporations do not pay taxes..they simply pass that along to us.

The corporations that stay in business.  Thinking of the medical device manufacture in MA who expects the $10M charge from Obamacare...and last year they made $9.5M.  "Just raise the prices?"  There's a profitability curve...you sell fewer units at higher prices; making fewer units doesn't mean less overhead...

91 In response to any new tax proposal, the GOP needs to present several things:

1) The effect on the price of a gallon of milk.
2) The effect on the price of a mid-sized family car.
3) The effect on cell phone plan costs.
4) The effect on airline tickets.
5) The effect on the price of a new LCD television.
6) The effect on cable TV prices.
7) The effect on the electricity bill.

A single chart with two prices - before and after - for each item.  There is not a single thing on there that people cannot understand.  It has the added bonus of hitting superficial people who are after "things" right between the eyes with the consequences.

92 One election, people.  We got one election to slow this crap down.

93

Smirking chimpazoid Christoph ? ...  love the abfab Euroweenie name !  Listen up mon pauvre petit ... you and other members of le Fraternite Booboisie are not gonna be so happy when the infrastructure of Civ falls down. There won't be much value to be offered by Cliff-notes level of competency, or intellect. Familiarity with Derridau or Foucalt, or that Obongo sticker you got on your ride ain't gonna amount to squat.

Posted by: OhioDude at April 07, 2010 02:55 PM (wdv0T)

Thread winner.

FOAD, Christoph. Your opinion is worth less than Paul Volcker's asshole hair.

94 89 Hey beedubya, sorry your hair hurts.  Now go get your shine box!

Posted by: Hammer at April 07, 2010 02:55 PM

Blow me, you idiot...it's the ignorance of dumbasses like yourself that allows stupid shit like a VAT tax to happen

95

There's a profitability curve...you sell fewer units at higher prices; making fewer units doesn't mean less overhead...

Pffft....that's like there is some kind of relationship between supply and demand.

 

96

Minus the cost of compliance, bookkeeping, etc.

Good! Corporation should pay a lot for compliance and bookkeeping and stamps. They make a lot of money, so they should be taxed. Besides, as long as business are paying the taxes, I won't be paying them.

(The backwards-talking idiot alterego has taken over.)

97 And Obama will be re-elected

Posted by: Math Meth sez at April 07, 2010 02:51 PM (mhD2v)

Fixed that for ya, Andy Rand.

98 Of course, the Democrats won't be shifting away from income taxes anytime soon.

In other words, you're wasting everyones' time going around in a circle.  Why not head on back over to Patterico and irritate those guys for a change?

99 The polling against healthcare reform would be nothing compared to the backlash on any proposed new consumption tax.

They don't care.  They want their socialist utopia.

100 93

You're on to something, Radish, but that's not the whole story.

Consider the medical device manufacturers whose products (like hip and knee replacements) are mostly paid by Medicare.  Their pricing is already being dictated to them by customers, due to caps on Medicare expenditures.

Profitability, or even making profits, is apparently passé.

101 It all runs downhill.  In the end, its we who pay.  The threat of a VAT may only be a play to set up raising income taxes rates. 

102

The polling against healthcare reform would be nothing compared to the backlash on any proposed new consumption tax.

Posted by: polynikes at April 07, 2010 02:58 PM

...again..do you really think they care??

They know full well what the real cost of the healthscare scam is..

...they know that this is the only chance they have to try to pay for it

103 Pffft....that's like there is some kind of relationship between supply and demand.

I know.  Crazy talk!  Pass the dutchie on the left-hand side.

104 Did you know that every day that we don't have a VAT tax, 863 children starve to death.

105

I keep coming back to this idiotic phrase that we can blame directly on Al Effing Gore:  Carbon Tax.

If you think about that one long enough, it will drive you mad.

106

The VAT.

You'll learn to like it.

107 Apparently Tea Party Protesters have an innate otherworldly grasp on causality unequaled by even the elite of economic thought, or are gifted with psychic precognition. Otherwise how can you explain how, after only a few days since Stimulus I (The original is still my fav BTW, sequels are just let downs) they, to derision of Enchanted Media started protesting higher taxes. While the same media wailed and wailed, "but he hasn't raised taxes, he's giving you stuff! you should be happy" While the tea party protesters responded "The Taxes are Coming! How else can you pay for this?"

And the media laughed and laughed at their backwards primitive banter; Clearly their feeble minds, stunted by abnormal limbic system development misunderstood the complex system of economics within the nation, and was twisting their own innate xenophobia, racism, and bigotry into some kind of illogical statement about higher spending leading to higher taxes.

One year later.
Lefties agree
You know, we need a new tax to cover all of this spending, and it should be a consumer based tax, that effects the cost of goods so it hits middle and lower classes the most.

It must have been psychic precognition, because their is no way those stunted tea party neanderthals could have figured out and predicted something this complicated on their own.

108 35 Invest in China. Now. This place is finished.

Posted by: TexasJew at April 07, 2010 02:36 PM (R+KMC)

 

Bullshit!!!! This "place", as you call it, is a long way from being "finished".

We survived Woodrow Wilson, and we survived FDR, and we survived Jimmy Carter.

We'll survive Barack Obama, too.

109 Oh, thanks for reminding me Circa. The IRS will probably enforce that one too. So, faceless, well-armed bureaucrats will control your 1. Healthcare 2. 401(k) 3. Energy expenditures. Coming next: Sex tax! (Well, I have no evidence of that but it seems like the next logical thing.)

110

...again..do you really think they care??

They know full well what the real cost of the healthscare scam is..

...they know that this is the only chance they have to try to pay for it

 

Actually, I don't think they have a clue about what they are doing.  They don't know what the real cost is, and they don't care if its paid for.

111 Take from Peter to pay Paul. I don't care. I'm Paul.

112

Dianne & Brian, #113: We'll survive Barack Obama, too.

Yes.

Thanks.

113 It's slowly dawning on me that, and bear with me here, all these problems would melt into thin air if we simply killed all the liberals.

114 The corporations that stay in business.  Thinking of the medical device manufacture in MA who expects the $10M charge from Obamacare...and last year they made $9.5M.  "Just raise the prices?"  There's a profitability curve...you sell fewer units at higher prices; making fewer units doesn't mean less overhead...

Posted by: GroverRadish at April 07, 2010 02:57 PM

When a new tax on industry is imposed, one of three things will happen depending on the elasticity of demand...and all three effect the consumer

1) the cost will be passed on to the consumer

2) producer muct reduce costs..labor is most always the major cost..so layoffs will happen

3) businesses will shut down

When you have an across the board increase with a VAT, the result will be a really fucked up combination of all three

 

 

115 How would a VAT affect the price of a computer?

In theory, the whole thing derives from the premise that the value of a computer is more than the sum of the parts placed into it.  Then, a tax is placed on that higher value.

How the fuck do you quantify what a computer with $1000 worth of parts is really worth?   To me, it's worth $1000, but a VAT can't work that way.

So it relies on some fucking bureaucrat to determine the added value so they can tax the shit out of it.

It's a double tax - an arbitrary increase in value (and price) and then a tax on that increase.  And that doesn't include all of the taxes passed down from the component makers.

116 It's slowly dawning on me that, and bear with me here, all these problems would melt into thin air if we simply killed all the liberals.


You're thinking very clearly.  You must not be drinking the city water.

117 We'll survive Barack Obama, too


Yes we will survive, the prognosis of my investment dollars, however, is not quite so sunny. My broker gives them a year maybe two before I'll be using them to wipe my A$$.

OBTW just because we survive doesn't mean that

A. Our country and system of government won't be in a confused shambles on the other side.
B. We won't have to choke down some major suckage just to get point A.

118

Yes I think that many dems who voted for healthcare care about their power and if they attempt to tax their voters for their TVs, cars, etc , they will lose that power very quickly. 

A whole dickload of 'em knew that their 'yes' on Obamacare would cost them their seats..

...and they went ahead and did it anyway

119 118 It's slowly dawning on me that, and bear with me here, all these problems would melt into thin air if we simply killed all the liberals.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 07, 2010 03:11 PM (P33XN)

Bill Ayers is way ahead of you, in the opposite direction.  Remember that.

120

Flashback:

“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” - Obama, pre-election '08

121 here's my shocked face
:-₀

122

I'm all for a VAT IF it replaces the corporate & personal income taxes.  AND IF there is one rate applied to all, regardless of income level.  If you want to exempy certain things like clothing, groceries, etc, I'm down with it.

Any tax that starts exacting a cost on the 50% that pay no fed income tax is fine by me.  Shouldn't everyone, I mean EVERYONE contribute something?  Who knows.  When tax increases start affecting everyone, maybe there'll be less demand for gubmint services and freebies.

123 We shall tax and tax, and spend and spend, and elect and elect. - Harry Hopkins during the first Communist presidency in the U.S.

They are doing nothing different now.

I repeat my open invitation to Volkner - Kiss my ass and die in a fire.

124 35  If this place is finished, then the rest of the world isn't too far behind.  What country has the economic/social infrastructure to replace us right now, or even two years from now?  How many countries depend upon either our marketplace or our military to help them develop their own infrastructure by providing a certain stablility to the global scene?

125 My "O" Face:

:>ßo

126 These people may have the right idea....

BISHKEK, Kyrgyzstan — Opposition leaders in Kyrgyzstan say they have formed a new acting government in the Central Asian nation.

The announcement was made Wednesday on a state television channel that opposition members stormed and seized in the capital of Bishkek.

-------

The dilemma here is deciding which state run television channel to seize.

127 Ok, I think I get it.  I just re-read my post about the computer.

Dell makes a computer.  The components they use were manufactured for a total cost of $150 bucks.  Their supplier charges Dell $300 for the finished components, representing a $150 profit.

A VAT of 10% would apply to $150 bucks, adding $15 to Dell's component cost, for a total of $315.

Dell normally charges $600 for the computer, for a $300 profit.  To continue to get that $300 profit, they now need to charge $615.  However, the consumer has to pay the 10% VAT on $300, tacking $30 more onto the price of the computer.

The entire thing now costs $645.  A VAT of 10% actually increases the price of the product by 16%.

And that's a simple example that doesn't include the VAT being added at the component manufacturer level.

It's not value added that is taxed.  It's mark-up.

128 Good morning. Last night all television networks were united into one great, revolutionary unit of Obama-praising proletarian awesomeness! No more competition, just the coverage of spontaneous demonstrations of worker appreciation for our leader. And you, Ace of Spades, touch your toes! Anybody under the age of 45 should be able to touch their toes.

129 My "O" face:

http://bit.ly/dacRVJ

130 Polynikes. I require an explanation of why a straight consumption tax is a poor idea, and makes me and that Canadian asshole less intelligent than we think we are. Please

131

127  Yes, and no -- right now we are in the rather unenviable situation, given the current state of the economy and the current idiotic situation with social services, that we have productive members of society reduced to relying on government handouts.  These people have jobs, but thanks to rising costs on things like gas, food, clothing, housing, electricity...TAXES, they can't make ends meet (we're talking about families here, not single people).  You know it's bad when you have people with full time employment who are reduced to signing up for food stamps, and many of them are reducing their hours because they can provide for their families better on the damn welfare than they can working full time.  It's starting to happen with health insurance -- the rates hike thanks to this goddamned bill, the workers can't afford the new premiums, what's left?  Why state run healthwelfare, that's what...the working class has to go for it, because, hey, they've got kids to take care of (and now, with it being mandatory, the singles are going to get hit hard too).

That's how frakked up things have gotten; that's the dilemma so far as cutting social services (you can't cut them without first having something in place for people to make ends meet, or you're going to end up with a real social nightmare) -- and no, nothing good will come of this.  Rotten bastiges...dirty, filthy rotten bastiges who did this to us.

132 A. Our country and system of government won't be in a confused shambles on the other side.
B. We won't have to choke down some major suckage just to get point A.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 07, 2010 03:14 PM (0q2P7)

 

A "confused shambles"?

"Confused? Not hardly. This country has always had dynamic, savvy and level-headed people who rise to the occasion and rectify its problems.  They are there, and they are not confused. Trust me.

A "shambles"? Bullshit. Obviously, you're not familiar with your own country's history.

 

133 One of the things that we must DEMAND that Republicans running for office in 2010 do is REPEAL everything that this Communist administration has done.

That must be their platform. Not just healthscam, but everything. If OBama gets in the way they need to repeal him. If he threatens to shutdown the government they need to remind the public that that phony trick was done by Clinton and a willing press blamed the R's. Won't happen again.

The slogan there should be "Shutdown the government? Make my day punk."

134 Not a trap. Start a meme. Did you pay your Obama Tax? How much is the Obama tax on that?

135 140  They need to run on the platform of getting this frakking economy jumpstarted -- no more bogus "stimuli" or "jobs bills"; no more worthless pap. 

136

When do we get our second stimulus.  It worked great last time the sky was falling.

137

Btw.  I pooped my pants.

 

138

Bullshit!!!! This "place", as you call it, is a long way from being "finished".

We survived Woodrow Wilson, and we survived FDR, and we survived Jimmy Carter.

We'll survive Barack Obama, too.

Posted by: Dianne & Brian at April 07, 2010 03:08 PM (ITzbJ)

We survived, all right, but we are still paying the price for the things that all of the above did, and will be for the rest of our lives. Hello, 75% personal income tax rates. Hello, Social Security collapse. Hello, Iranian nukes.

Assuming we CAN stop Obamaism, it will likewise take the rest of our lives to fix what he's done. If not, then the kinds of things he's going to pile onto what we're already dealing with mean we literally will be finished.

139 "37 The time to voice your anger is NOW. All these trial balloons are to 'test the waters of public opinion'. They need to be told FUCK OFF!" Course its not like they listen or anything. Health care?

140 127

I'm all for a VAT IF it replaces the corporate & personal income taxes.  AND IF there is one rate applied to all, regardless of income level.  If you want to exempy certain things like clothing, groceries, etc, I'm down with it.

Any tax that starts exacting a cost on the 50% that pay no fed income tax is fine by me.  Shouldn't everyone, I mean EVERYONE contribute something?  Who knows.  When tax increases start affecting everyone, maybe there'll be less demand for gubmint services and freebies.

Posted by: MDr VB1.0 CS1st at April 07, 2010 03:16 PM (ucq49)

Even if a VAT did replace the income tax -- which would never happen; they might try to sell it as doing so to get people on board before pulling the ol' bait and switch -- it would have a devastating effect on commerce as people would no longer buy ANYTHING beyond necessities. Thanks to the service-based economy we've so brilliantly morphed ourselves into, we can't afford that. More businesses would close, the unemployment rate would shoot up even higher, malaise would become a permanent part of American life.

141 t bird @ 141 has coined the new catchphrase:

The Obama Tax

as in sales tax, income tax, gas tax, etc

142

Assuming we CAN stop Obamaism, it will likewise take the rest of our lives to fix what he's done. If not, then the kinds of things he's going to pile onto what we're already dealing with mean we literally will be finished.

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 07, 2010 03:43 PM (laMp7)

 

Within a year, even Demorats will begin to realize (begrudgingly) that they put a madman in the White House; one with the mind of a child, and one who is nothing more than a street hustler and a demogogue, but a madman nevertheless.

The Black Caucus is experiencing a euphoria right now with one of their own in the White House ..., and in controlling the Congress, they're abusing their power, which was always predictable. If they aren't marginalized, and soon, it will be the Democrats and not the Republicans who will be wandering in the wilderness for the next 40 years.

143 "Confused? Not hardly. This country has always had dynamic, savvy and level-headed people who rise to the occasion and rectify its problems.  They are there, and they are not confused. Trust me.

I'm sorry no. One of those Dynamic savvy statesmen rectifying problems happens to be FDR. Our semblance to a Republic almost ended then. The damage he did has not been undone in 80 of this Republic's 230 years (That's one third of the time for those not good at math.) In fact it has gotten worse. If we could by majority's will choose good statesmen we would never be in this position. If we cannot, then governance as established will continue the long sliding course already established. This is simple history, in 80 years we have not turned back Socialism to the original free society.

I am very alert to history. Both here in the United States and the world. The dynamic that existed which gave us our free society is greatly diminished. The elements which made possible the first emergence of a free society since the Romans is simply no longer there.

We do not have a large number of ardent statesmen of established repute whom hold strongly to Lockean philosophy. We don't have a large majority of citizens strongly biased against government interventionism. The founders didn't have to deal with "social justice", or "wealth redistribution" as legitimate philosophical contenders for government structure, as Marx had not penned his Das Kapital nor The Communist Manifesto yet.

In short unless something happens to the squishy middle, and a good hunk of liberals, that either turns them conservative or makes them go away (to another country of course) the US will remain confused at it's core between the ideals. And Government without a vigilant people to restrain it will continue its cancerous growth and take over our lives. Or financial crisis will collapse the system and we will reform the government, and make it up of the same confused core of ideas penned by the less than noble politicians of today, and we will get a far worse system than we have. You may think that Providence gave us our first Government, don't bet it will give us a second just as good or better having loused up the first. And a people whom have become more and more complacent and entitleist in nature cannot be depended on to usher in the same free society the founders placed in our hands. No good analysis of US or world history would suggest that they will.

144 Actually a VAT tax is very much more expensive than a sales tax.  A sales tax is assessed  upon the finished product and paid by the retail consumer of the product(s).  A VAT is a "value added tax. A tax is assessed at every "value added" stage of production. Raw goods have a VAT. Semi finished products have a VAT. Finished goods have a VAT. Every time a "value" is added the TAX must be paid and rolled into the finished price.  

VAT is an especially nefarious way of extracting money from the masses as you're not aware of how much VAT tax has accrued to the final price.  With a sales tax of say 5%, a $100 item incurs a $5 tax for a total of $105.  You know what the proportion of tax to "stuff" is.  With a VAT this is difficult if not impossible for the consumer to determine how much of the final price represents taxes added in along the production chain versus the cost of labor, materials and profits.

In Europe they've been doing this for years.  No one "knows" what the real tax rate is but most assumptions are the accumulated VAT tax rate is about 25% of the final price.

Nice eh? The bastards want to tax us into povery without even telling us how much they're stealing..

I was hopin' for some change but the taxman took my last quarter.

145 NEVER EVER be FOR ANY new tax. It is always a ripoff for the average person who works for a living.

Everyone thought they were getting a deal for the income tax, look where that got us.

I would be for a new tax IF they met the following conditions:

1. Pass and ratify a new Constitutional Amendment that repealed and forbade ALL other federal taxes and fees of ANY nature and specified the new tax and its maximum rate.

2. The new tax was a flat rate of 10% on ALL forms of income regardless of source and amount.
 
3. Required the government to live within that amount on a rolling three year average except in times of a war declared by congress; after which any accumulated dept would be paid off within 10 years of the end of the war.

146

You're confusing a national sales tax with a VAT.  I like neither. 

Posted by: polynikes

A VAT can be a national POS tax, but not all POS are VAT. He's not as confused as you think. In the UK, you are charged a VAT on every receipt. That version is a national POS.

147

All of your points are well taken, Moose. But you're overlooking one factor; The Greatest Generation, which emerged from that debacle and turned sour lemons into sweet lemonade.

Say what you will in the position that you've taken, and in understanding where you're coming from, I'll respect your position. But don't ever overlook the fact that Americans have grit that always gets them through the hardest of times.

We're still a young and energetic country, unlike the tired and worn out countries of Europe.

148 I really don't find that simple hoser as offencive (see what I did there) as some other morons. We disagree on baby-killing but that's about it. Maybe y'all have some problem with his presentational style, but I have at least three 20-something sons who also are frequently wrong but never in doubt.

149 I'm pretty sure a VAT would require a constitutional amendment since it is a direct tax without being proportional to the enumeration of people for each state.

150

gragnard at #133 offers a neat, simple example. Go with that for the purposes of illustration.

The size of our economy is $14.26 trillion. That's the total value of all of the goods and services after all the value has been added. Using gragnard's example, it won't be the $600 that gets taxed; it's the $150 plus the $315 plus the final $645 — $1,260.

It follows that the total amount that would be taxed nationwide would be a lot more than $14T. It'd be more like $50T or $100T, especially after you figure in all the things of economic value that aren't being taxed right now: interest, rent, fines for overdue library books, ....

151 I'm pretty sure a VAT would require a constitutional amendment since it is a direct tax without being proportional to the enumeration of people for each state.

Don't you know that after 1933 the Constitution acquired a much higher modulus of elasticity?

No new amendments for anything are needed as long as they satisfy liberal causes.

152 2. The new tax was a flat rate of 10% on ALL forms of income regardless of source and amount.Posted by: Vic

For the sake of argument, I think we can all agree that what the O-ministration is kicking around is unmitigated crap.

I still think, as do others here, that taxing income makes less sense than taxing consumption.
Taxing is effectively punishment; where is the morality in punishing earnings?

The ideal alternative to our current system IMHO is:

A. Slash the Federal government by 1/3 within two years.
B. Gradual reduction in income taxes to zero.
C. AND then and only then, a national sales tax concurrent with a uniform customs & duties tax. (IE. 10% on anything imported, no more, no less.)

Of course, the Left would go nuts unless there were refunds for poor people to avoid the regressive nature of a POS.

153 I have already decided , i ain't buyin SHIT anymore. We live on a 20 acre farm. Only 3,000 sq feet are planted . Over the years I have accumulated enough crap. Screw  Obama, I'll barter, etc... Galt these assholes away!  If we stand together, they don't stand a freakin chance! Starve the beast!

154 All of your points are well taken, Moose. But you're overlooking one factor; The Greatest Generation


That generation did a lot of good things, but defeat Socialism in the US they did not. Their progeny, in fact, empowered it, and created the meta-crisis of today which threatens to cement it. For us to find freedom, again, we would have to do what no other people in the US or the world has done, struggle free of socialism. A few peoples have gotten out of Communism to Socialism, but nobody has been able to unchain themselves from the comforts of soft socialism to actual freedom. That's a tall order even for us.

155 141 Not a trap. Start a meme. Did you pay your Obama Tax? How much is the Obama tax on that?

Posted by: t-bird at April 07, 2010 03:36 PM (tGLyN)

That's a sexy meme. Me like.

156 I have already decided , i ain't buyin SHIT anymore. Posted by: marine43

If that VAT gets to an actual proposal in Congress I think we all should embargo purchases. No purchases save food for a quarter would be a shot across the bow of every business that thinks they can still make nice with a socialist government.

157 I think it should be clear to everyone that the deficit has to be addressed, and part of it will have to be taxes.  And we conservatives are going to have to support a responsible tax increase.

I think the Tea Party/Republican tax plan should work like this:  For every 1% in Federal Budget cuts then the year after the cuts are made, and actually implemented, then there will be  an across the board income tax increase of 1% in every tax bracket.  Its fair, its progressive, and we only get dinged as much as the welfare state gets dinged, and we have the assurance that our taxes will go to the deficit rather than creating new programs.

And Congress has to keep cutting.  If in year two, no budget cuts are made then the tax brackets revert back to the current rate.  If they cut an additional 1% the second year, then the brackets maintain the 1% increase, not increase another 1%.

158 That generation did a lot of good things, but defeat Socialism in the US they did not. Their progeny, in fact, empowered it, and created the meta-crisis of today which threatens to cement it. For us to find freedom, again, we would have to do what no other people in the US or the world has done, struggle free of socialism. A few peoples have gotten out of Communism to Socialism, but nobody has been able to unchain themselves from the comforts of soft socialism to actual freedom. That's a tall order even for us.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 07, 2010 04:39 PM (0q2P7)

I agree. Many, though certainly not all of the children of The Greatest Generation were spoiled rotten by their parents, and with the passing of their parents, they've turned to the government to become their new mommies and daddies, too lazy to work for what their parents had, and in many cases, even stealing from their own parents what their parents worked hard to get, and discarding their parents as if their parents were yesterday's garbage; a generation of decadent, selfish, sleazy and self-centered ingrates.

But all of their children aren't like that. Many were instilled with high moral values, and they will be the hope of this country, eclipsing the Me, Me, Me Generation.  A few is all it takes to make a difference. That's a positive aspect to having an apathetic, complacent and decadent majority; a situation that Obama's campaign staff certainly exploited.

159 What can we do? How about something so simple that its almost Reaganesque: 67/290 on 11/2/2010. Don't like the direction the country's going? 67/290. Worried about getting laid off? 67/290. Worried that you're going to have to lay people off? Tell them you're worried and that the answers to your worries is 67/290. Your parents or in-laws worried about retirement, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the kind of world we're leaving to their grandkids and great-grandkids? 67/290. You're Obama-voting idiot brother-in-law unhappy with all the broken campaign promises? 67/290. (You might want to add that he never vote again without consulting you first.) That disappointed commie chick you've been banging because she's up for anything you can think of, so long as it's transgressive and deconstructive of conventional bourgeois morality? Tell her the way to really teach those cowardly convictionless Democrats a lesson they'll never forget is 67/290. If she's multi-orgasmic, try repeating it in the throes of passion. Right before you flip her over and dork her up the squeak-hole.

160 Diane & Brian: About the Greatest Generation, so-called: they also gave us the Great-Society and the debacle in Viet Nam. Never forget that the term "Greatest Generation: was coined by a Boomer, and in the eyes of a certain kind of Boomer, the Greatest Thing the Greatest Generation ever accomplished was to spawn them.

161 I'm puzzled by this excerpt from the Wikipedia article on VAT:
To maintain the progressive nature of total taxes on individuals, countries implementing VAT have reduced income tax on lower income-earners, as well as instituted direct transfer payments to lower-income groups, resulting in lower tax burdens on the poor.[4]

WTF does that mean?

162

"About the Greatest Generation, so-called: they also gave us the Great-Society and the debacle in Viet Nam." - Schreiber 

 

"debacle"? I suppose that it's a matter of perspective.

 

Look at it this way: That "debacle", as you call it, was such a fiasco that U.S., Australian, Fillipino, Taiwanese, New Zealand and R.O.K. forces prevailed in every  single battle that was fought in that war, wiping out entire divisions of VC and NVR, decimating the population of North Viet Nam to such levels that they would have been forced to capitulate if cowardly, sneaky and treacherous creeps in this country hadn't weaseled out and betrayed the South Vietnamese and our own troops as well..

That "debacle", as you called it, also gave us corps of battle-tested officers and NCO's who provided the leadership that enabled this country to prevail in every battle that it has fought since then, and the corps of officers and NCO's who fought in the Middle East and in southeast Asia over the past two decades will provide superb leadership in conflicts for many years to come.

Adversely, the Russians haven't fought in a major conflict since World War II - 65 years ago, and the Communist Chinese haven't fought in a major conflict since the Korean War - 55 years ago.  Consequently, they don't have corps of battle-tested officers and NCO's who could provide adequate leadership in a major conflict with this country. That is why they want to keep all of their nukes.

A "debacle"? Not hardly. It served a worthwhile purpose. 

163 Dianne & Brian, By debacle I meant the decision by the Greatest Generation's Best and Brightest not to win the war. I respect your faith in the American people to do right by our country. I don't always share it, but that's because I suffer from that tempermental complaint called pessimism common among certain types of conservatives.

164 Sadly and tragically, Schreiber, a lot of "the best and the brightest" will never be coming home.

165 Foodstamps will be exempt. Poor people will be exempt (defined as 300% above poverty line.) Children's clothes will be exempt. Repeat forever. Then there still won't be enough money. And the bad GOP will cut those exemptions. those evil white men.

166 Also, the VAT will punish savers...think about it. You have saved 100K and already paid taxes on it. Now you want to spend it, but you have to pay tax again. Meanwhile those with no savings don't get their income taxed twice. They already spent it all.

167 wtf?
You're either pussy-whipped or had 'way too much soymilk (and the insidious phytoestrogens):
What is all this interest in lgf? Homoerotica? Nearly every normal person says wtf.
Main point: anyone ever read the Constitution? If so, you may have to move to a state where others have. If you can't move, you may have to defend your property against seizure by Leviathan to pay off the public employees union. Your call.

168 so good post!thanks a lot

169 Taxes is not only important for the personal but also important to country.

170

ÈäÇÊ ÇáÇÍÓÇÁ Ã£Ã¤ÃŠÃÃ¬ ÇáÇÍÓÇÁ

ãäÊÏì ÇáÇÍÓÇÁ ÇáËÞÇÝí