July 27, 2010

Pro-Life Groups Demand Inquiry Into Kagan's Perjured Testimony
— Ace

Pound the drum:

A letter created by Americans United for Life Action and signed by at least 30 state, national and legal organizations asks for "an investigation into discrepancies between Kagan's testimony before Congress and written documentation of her undue influence on medical organizations while advising President William J. Clinton on partial-birth abortion legislation."

The article links this weeks-old analysis from liberal, pro-choice Slate, decimating Kagan. And, actually, William Saletan spins here for her a little bit, and yet it's still damning.

Kagan, who was then an associate White House counsel, was doing her job: advancing the president's interests. The real culprit was ACOG, which adopted Kagan's spin without acknowledgment. But the larger problem is the credence subsequently given to ACOG's statement by courts, including the Supreme Court. Judges have put too much faith in statements from scientific organizations. This credulity must stop.

The Kagan story appeared Tuesday in National Review and CNSNews.com. You can read the underlying papers at the Media Research Center. There are three crucial documents. The first is a memo from Kagan on June 22, 1996, describing a meeting with ACOG's chief lobbyist and its former president. The main takeaway from the meeting, Kagan wrote, was that "there are an exceedingly small number of partial birth abortions that could meet the standard the President has articulated," i.e., abortions in which the partial-birth technique was necessary to protect a woman's life or health. She explained:

In the vast majority of cases, selection of the partial birth procedure is not necessary to avert serious adverse consequences to a woman's health; another option—whether another abortion procedure or, in the post-viability context, birth through a caesarean section, induced labor, or carrying the pregnancy to term—is equally safe.

The second document is a draft ACOG statement on "intact D&X" (aka partial-birth) abortions, faxed by ACOG to the White House on Dec. 5, 1996. The statement said that

a select panel convened by ACOG could identify no circumstances under which this procedure, as defined above, would be the only option to save the life or preserve the health of the woman. Notwithstanding this conclusion, ACOG strongly believes that decisions about medical treatment must be made by the doctor, in consultation with the patient, based upon the woman's particular circumstances. The potential exists that legislation prohibiting specific medical practices, such as intact D & X, may outlaw techniques that are critical to the lives and health of American women.

The third document is a set of undated notes in Kagan's handwriting, offering "suggested options" for editing the ACOG statement. They included this sentence: "An intact D+X, however, may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman, and a doctor should be allowed to make this determination." This sentence was added verbatim to the final ACOG statement released on Jan. 12, 1997, which read in part:

A select panel convened by ACOG could identify no circumstances under which this procedure, as defined above, would be the only option to save the life or preserve the health of the woman. An intact D&X, however, may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman, and only the doctor, in consultation with the patient, based upon the woman's particular circumstances can make this decision.

The basic story is pretty clear: Kagan, with ACOG's consent, edited the statement to say that intact D&X "may be the best or most appropriate procedure" in some cases. Conservatives have pounced on this, claiming that Kagan "fudged the results of [ACOG's] study," "made up 'scientific facts,' " and "participated in a gigantic scientific deception." These charges are exaggerated. The sentence Kagan added was hypothetical. It didn't assert, alter, or conceal any data. Nor did it "override a scientific finding," as National Review alleges, or "trump" ACOG's conclusions, as Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, contends. Even Power Line, a respected conservative blog, acknowledges that ACOG's draft and Kagan's edit "are not technically inconsistent." Kagan didn't override ACOG's scientific judgments. She reframed them.

No she didn't do just that.

The word "may" has a lot of meanings. It expresses a possibility... but what level of possibility are we talking about? I can say the sun may not rise tomorrow -- and, indeed, it is technically possible that some unannounced catastrophe could arrest the earth's spin so that the sun never rose again.

Or I can say it "may" rain tomorrow based on forecasts of a 60% likelihood of precipitation.

There is obviously a lot of ground covered here, and large differences between that first and second sense of "may." The first sense states merely that something is technically possible, no matter how unlikely; the second sense states it's likely.

In Kagan's case, she was specifically told that doctors could identify no situations in which the partial birth abortion was needed to save the life or health of the mother... and, indeed, they had trouble even imagining such situations!

In her own notes, she confesses this (this is from that first link):

In a June 22, 1996, memo, Kagan admitted that her meeting with the ACOG was "something of a revelation," for she learned that "in the vast majority of cases, selection of the partial-birth procedure is not necessary to avert serious adverse consequences to a woman's health."

In a Dec. 14 memo of that year, Kagan summarized the official ACOG report released in October as a "disaster," for it stated that "a select panel convened by ACOG could identify no circumstances under which this procedure would be the only option to save the life or preserve the health of the woman," a resounding blow to the president's position.

But the ACOG position was that the doctor should have the right to make a decision on a case-by-case basis. That's a conclusion, not a fact, and what was sought from them was the actual facts that should guide legislators and courts.

So Kagan changed the facts. Rather than admit that her position is based upon a situation that trained OB/GYN's have difficulty even imagining, she recast this negative -- this statement of a negative likelihood of the need of a partial birth abortion -- into a positive. It may be necessary. Just like the sun may not rise tomorrow.

True -- it may happen that way, but betting men would take odds against.

In no possible world would ACOG's actual position -- "we can identify no actual situations in which this procedure is necessary, and in fact have trouble even imagining such situations, but we think doctors should still have that option" -- ever carried the day in courts. That's why she branded the facts a "disaster" for her side -- they were a disaster.

So she changed the facts. Rather than the truth -- that this hadn't happened before and seemed unlikely to happen in the future -- she offered a lie: "It may be necessary," as if doctors had in mind a set of circumstances in which this would be the case.

In fact, they explicitly did not.

This is not "reframing." This is relying upon the inherent ambiguity of the word "may" to turn a clear statement that the procedure has never been necessary under real-world circumstances and in fact it's hard to imagine it being necessary under speculative, imaginary ones into a statement that the procedure may be necessary.

(This is why PowerLine says there is no "technical inconsistency" in changing the meaning by use of the word "may" -- because the broad meaning of "may" gives you a lot of room to deceive without being caught in convictable perjury. But they are speaking only to that -- not towards whether there was an effort to deceive and alter meaning, an effort that resulted in wild success for untruth.)

Even after Saletan offers his weak "reframing" claim, he notes that Kagan lied offered testimony at odds with the facts.

[Kagan answered a question about her role in drafting the language by saying] that she had just been "clarifying the second aspect of what [ACOG] thought." Progressive blogs picked up this spin, claiming that she merely "clarified" ACOG's findings and made its position "more clear" so that its "intent was correctly understood." Come on. Kagan didn't just "clarify" ACOG's position. She changed its emphasis. If a Bush aide had done something like this during the stem-cell debate, progressive blogs would have screamed bloody murder.

At the hearing, Kagan said ACOG had told her that intact D&X "was in some circumstances the medically best procedure." But that doesn't quite match her 1996 memo about her meeting with ACOG. In the memo, she wrote that

we went through every circumstance imaginable—post- and pre-viability, assuming malformed fetuses, assuming other medical conditions, etc., etc.—and there just aren't many where use of the partial-birth abortion is the least risky, let alone the "necessary," approach. No one should worry about being able to drive a truck through the President's proposed exception; the real issue is whether anything at all can get through it.

The language in this memo—"imaginable," "let alone," the quotes around "necessary"—depicts a conversation in which nobody could think of a real case where intact D&X was, as Kagan's revision would later put it, "the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman."

And yet the spin is offered that she merely "reframed" the issue, changed the emphasis, by turning a the facts -- that in every circumstance imaginable, this procedure simply wasn't necessary -- into the useful lie that it "may" be necessary.

Shouldn't her "may" have had a caveat there? As in "It may be necessary, but an exhaustive analysis of every imaginable scenario has yet to uncover a situation in which it is in fact necessary"?

Because if you've ruled out all situations you've looked at, but are still claiming it "may" be necessary, the truth demands a disclosure of precisely how unimaginable you yourself have found it to be.

And based on this lie, the courts have consistently claimed it was "unconstitutional" to prohibit (or merely limit) this procedure.

I'd say "expect that to change," but then, hey, Elena Kagan's soon to be ruling on her own lie.

Hm! I just realized -- we commonly differentiate the two uses of may in both written and spoken English.

When we are talking about a far-fetched, entirely hypoethetical slim possibility, we draw out the word to highlight that we're using it in that way -- "I guess the 12th Imam maaayyy rise tomorrow and lead Iran in battle against us." "I suppose Obamanomics coooullld work."

We italicize them in written English to stress these dubious possibilities as well.

No italics, though, for Kagan! No attempt to alert her reader -- the judges she would now presume to join -- that she was indulging in speculations about extreme unlikelihoods.

Nope, just plain old fashioned "may," same as you might say on a cloudy day, "You may want to bring an umbrella."


Posted by: Ace at 07:46 AM | Comments (94)
Post contains 1856 words, total size 12 kb.

1
I'm not afraid of dying...

and I'm looking for a hill.

Posted by: 1969 Ford Blow Me at July 27, 2010 07:49 AM (uFokq)

2 Elena Kagan's soon to be ruling on her own lie.

The whole post comes down to the last line.  Oh well.  Another brick in the wall.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at July 27, 2010 07:49 AM (usjNq)

3 I have much of the empathee for the Guns Rights and the Aborted a Babees!

Posted by: Sonia Sotomayor at July 27, 2010 07:51 AM (UOjLL)

4 Still no explanation of the need, once the 'fetus' is given an 'intact D & X', to ram scissors into it's skull to kill it.

IOW, the procedure itself is indefensible.

Posted by: nickless at July 27, 2010 07:51 AM (MMC8r)

5 Can Lesbians even get pregnant!?

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at July 27, 2010 07:53 AM (UOjLL)

6 The very idea of partial-birth abortion is so obscene....there are no words.  When you've given birth via emergency c-section to a baby just three weeks shy of full term, and imagine that same baby having its skull crushed so it can be aborted, there is NO EXCUSE. 

Kagan's as ugly inside as she is outside.  And that's quite an accomplishment.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, proud iota of a cracka at July 27, 2010 07:53 AM (UOM48)

7 So she is a dishonest, partisan political apparatchik. Obama would settle for nothing less.

Posted by: real joe at July 27, 2010 07:55 AM (IpIBJ)

8
IOW, the procedure itself is indefensible.

It is perplexing, isn't it? I'm thinking it's a clever strategy by the Leftwing Regressives. Think about it...

Push the limits all the way to a heinous, inhumane procedure and then in short time "conventional" abortion becomes mainstream and humane.

Push for full-blown communism and a little socialism becomes the norm. The strategy is sound and it works.




Posted by: 1969 Ford Blow Me at July 27, 2010 07:56 AM (uFokq)

9 8 Can Lesbians even get pregnant!?

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at July 27, 2010 11:53 AM (UOjLL)

http://bit.ly/axmVPE

Turkey basters aren't just for Thanksgiving dinner anymore.

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at July 27, 2010 07:58 AM (oIp16)

10
Push for homosexuals to be married...

and all of a sudden people are comfortable with civil unions...for homosexuals.


Posted by: 1969 Ford Blow Me at July 27, 2010 07:58 AM (uFokq)

11 I guess since Barky had no problem with babies who survived abortions in Chi-town being allowed to just die in a closet, it's really not a stretch to imagine he thinks partial birth abortion would be just dandy, too. 

I wish that twit Elisabeth Hasselbeck would ask him a tough question tomorrow on The View.  Unfortunately, she has the intellect of Bo the dog.  Which is exactly why she's the sole "conservative" on that crapfest.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, proud iota of a cracka at July 27, 2010 07:59 AM (UOM48)

12 See -- thing is, it's a lefty-lie.  So it's OK.

Can we move along here?

Posted by: Roger at July 27, 2010 07:59 AM (tAwhy)

13

So she changed the facts. Rather than the truth -- that this hadn't happened before and seemed unlikely to happen in the future -- she offered a lie: "It may be necessary," as if doctors had in mind a set of circumstances in which this would be the case.

In fact, they explicitly did not.

Wow, perjury before the Supremes, Even they don't take kindly to that.

And it wasn't about sex.

Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2010 07:59 AM (/jbAw)

14 Mmmmm...perjury goes best with maple syrup.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 27, 2010 08:00 AM (2vBN7)

15 one inch at a time is all we ask...

Posted by: liberals destroying freedom and bastardizing all that is right at July 27, 2010 08:01 AM (YVZlY)

16 I'd say "expect that to change," but then, hey, Elena Kagan's soon to be ruling on her own lie.

There is a never used clause in the Constitution for Supreme Court Judges. The "shall hold their Offices during good Behavior" clause. Perjury would be outside of good behavior, but like I said, it has never been used, and no method of implementing the clause has ever been proposed.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at July 27, 2010 08:02 AM (0q2P7)

17 I remember Palin Steele telling me that a baby we lost in the second trimester wasn't a baby.

Good times.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, proud iota of a cracka at July 27, 2010 08:02 AM (UOM48)

18 13
Push for homosexuals to be married...

and all of a sudden people are comfortable with civil unions...for homosexuals.


Posted by: 1969 Ford Blow Me at July 27, 2010 11:58 AM (uFokq)

I was the other way around. I thought civil unions were just hunky dory until I saw the whole Gay Marriage thing in it's true light after California Prop 8 went down and the Gays went ugly. We already had a civil union law in California. That wasn't good enough. Now I support none of that nonsense.

Now be prepared to be denounced by Drew as a bigot in 3... 2... 1...

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at July 27, 2010 08:05 AM (oIp16)

19 Slow news day ha?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 27, 2010 08:05 AM (0GFWk)

20 I guess since Barky had no problem with babies who survived abortions in Chi-town being allowed to just die in a closet, it's really not a stretch to imagine he thinks partial birth abortion would be just dandy, too.

The only explanation is that if they murder it before those last few inches, they can claim it was never alive at all.  Even pro-abortion groups blanched at leaving the survivors to die-- killing it in the last inch must be some sort of salve on their consciences.

Posted by: nickless at July 27, 2010 08:05 AM (MMC8r)

21 But it's not a baby-baby, you know? /s

Posted by: tcn at July 27, 2010 08:05 AM (XPi3j)

22 Wow, perjury before the Supremes, Even they don't take kindly to that.

I can't think of a case of anyone's being convicted of, or even charged with, perjury for false testimony or faked-up evidence offered to the Supreme Court—though it's happened there at least a few thousand times.

They take very kindly to it.

Posted by: oblig. at July 27, 2010 08:06 AM (x7Ao8)

23 Can she be disbarred before her confirmation vote?

Posted by: Jean at July 27, 2010 08:07 AM (l1XDC)

24 There's nothing here to get upset over. We need to keep our powder dry for the really big issue coming along soon...any day now...I can almost see it...

Posted by: Typical Republican at July 27, 2010 08:09 AM (LH6ir)

25 Unfortunately, this long post shows the problem.

We can't count on ordinary Americans getting outraged by this.  It's too confusing.

We could count on Senators blocking it (except for Lindsay) but even then, it gets into partisan politics.

What we really need is a responsible legal profession that takes these kinds of lapses seriously and can explain to the public why it's a big deal.  But she's a liberal and a member of the ruling class, so there will be no scrutiny.  The corrupt legal profession will protect its own.

Posted by: AmishDude at July 27, 2010 08:09 AM (T0NGe)

26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Doe_Law

Too bad it was overturned.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at July 27, 2010 08:09 AM (5aVkt)

27 Can CJ Roberts refuse to swear her in as a discredited officer of the court?

Posted by: Jean at July 27, 2010 08:10 AM (Yp0Ox)

28 The very idea of partial-birth abortion is so obscene....there are no words.  When you've given birth via emergency c-section to a baby just three weeks shy of full term, and imagine that same baby having its skull crushed so it can be aborted, there is NO EXCUSE.

Amen.

It's murder, plain and simple.

They support jamming scissors into the heads of innocent, helpless babies. They're monsters. Take a good look into their eyes--65 years ago they were stuffing Jews into cattle cars.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 08:10 AM (fE6tn)

29

Can Lesbians even get pregnant!?

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at July 27, 2010 11:53 AM (UOjLL)

Why do you ask?

Posted by: David Crosby at July 27, 2010 08:12 AM (7+pP9)

30 Since you are pro-choice, Ace, you deserve some credit for reporting this.
Does this mean you are not for partial birth abortion? Or is it just the perjury?

Posted by: kidney- mama made the choice to birth me at July 27, 2010 08:12 AM (ENRGu)

31

Nice post.

I wonder what recourse there is if she gets confirmed after having committed perjury.

Posted by: rdbrewer at July 27, 2010 08:13 AM (aGwHt)

32 65 years ago they were stuffing Jews into cattle cars. Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 12:10 PM (fE6tn) Yeah so what. No big deal there.

Posted by: Oliver Stone at July 27, 2010 08:14 AM (0GFWk)

33 Just more evidence that the term "principled leftist" is an oxymoron.

Posted by: Otis Criblecoblis at July 27, 2010 08:14 AM (kJXs1)

34

Even pro-abortion groups blanched at leaving the survivors to die-- killing it in the last inch must be some sort of salve on their consciences.

But Obama didn't blanch.

Don't forget what we are dealing with here. These partial birth abortion people are supremely evil.

Question:

Who wants partial birth abortion? What group does that satisfy? Is it really the worry that any limitations on baby killing would spread down to earlier weeks of gestation? Are they murdering infants because they are worried that someone would prevent them from murdering other infants??????

 

Posted by: dagny at July 27, 2010 08:15 AM (ZIwK+)

35

They're monsters.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 12:10 PM (fE6tn)

Im still glad that George Tiller got gunned down.

Does that make me a bad person?

Like I care...

 

Posted by: ErikW at July 27, 2010 08:15 AM (QNlb9)

36 There is a never used clause in the Constitution for Supreme Court Judges. The "shall hold their Offices during good Behavior" clause. Perjury would be outside of good behavior, but like I said, it has never been used, and no method of implementing the clause has ever been proposed.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at July 27, 2010 12:02 PM (0q2P7)

Actually, this is called "impeachment" - and has been used several times for removal of lower-Court judges (not sure about Supreme Court).  Also, term is interpreted to relate to conduct while in office - not conduct prior to taking office (although perjury during confirmation hearings could be a close call - not sure that has ever come up in actuality).

Posted by: Roger at July 27, 2010 08:16 AM (tAwhy)

37 I have it on good authority from a prog friend that a human fetus is no different than a wart.
They make me want to throw up.

Posted by: real joe at July 27, 2010 08:17 AM (IpIBJ)

38 Someone please explain to me the reason why they are so in love with baby killing. Even from the more reasonable ones you hear, "it's not my business". Really? When does it become your business? When it's your family? When you pay for it? If they started shooting old people, would that be your business?

Posted by: dagny at July 27, 2010 08:21 AM (ZIwK+)

39

I have it on good authority that when Bob Schieffer gets back from his vacation, he's going to be looking into this.

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at July 27, 2010 08:22 AM (UOjLL)

40 Who wants partial birth abortion? What group does that satisfy?

There are a bunch of fucked-up subhumans in the world who do fucked-up things but want to feel good about themselves in spite of those fucked-up things.

Knowing that partial-birth abortion happens allows these fucked-up subhumans to tell themselves that at least they aren't jamming scissors into babies' heads.

Knowing that the evil monster who voted twice against Illionois' BAIPA is squatting in the oval office allows these fucked-up subhumans to tell themselves that at least they aren't voting to leave newborns to die in piles of dirty linen.

This is similar to defining deviancy down.  I call it a depravity cushion.

Oh, and these fucked-up subhumans?  They're all guaranteed dem votes.

Posted by: MikeO at July 27, 2010 08:23 AM (lBmZl)

41 >>>Does this mean you are not for partial birth abortion? Or is it just the perjury? I'm against it. It is, as I think Moynihan said, virtually infanticide. Abortion is a tricky issue generally, but if you're pro-choice, you have to in the end rely upon a pretty arbitrary distinction between "out of the womb" and "still in the womb." That distinction is, as I said, kind of arbitrary, because a more-or-less full-term baby isn't any different from a born baby, except it hasn't breathed air yet. But even if you concede (as I do) the arbitrariness of this distinction (especially as it comes down to the wire, and we're no longer even remotely speaking of a "fetus" in anything but a technical sense), it's a distinction that in the end has to be enforced. Partial birth abortion consists of manual delivery of a baby, limb by limb, until legs, body, arms and shoulders have actually been delivered, and only the head remains inside the mother. And then, ghoulishly, scissors are inserted into the base of the baby's head and then a vacuum is inserted to collapse the skull and suck out brain and bone. The baby at this point is actually delivered, except, you know, by this bullshit intentional dodge of not FULLY delivering it. Therefore at this point you're just killing an inconvenient baby, and you don't even have the arbitrary out of the womb/in the womb distinction to rely upon. There's just no difference here then between killing a baby this way or giving birth to it and then throwing it in a dumpster. I believe the only situation this is even needed or even recommended is if a more-or-less full-term baby is dead in the womb -- but in that case we're talking about a method of evacuating dead tissue from the mother, not an abortion.

Posted by: ace at July 27, 2010 08:23 AM (KUUXH)

42 Question: Who wants partial birth abortion? What group does that satisfy? Is it really the worry that any limitations on baby killing would spread down to earlier weeks of gestation? Are they murdering infants because they are worried that someone would prevent them from murdering other infants?????? Posted by: dagny That is indeed the question. Who thinks to ask for this procedure? Why would it EVER be medically necessary? Forgive my naivety, but that is a barbaric thing to do- you are pithing a child. We had to pith frogs in an advanced biology class, and I thought THAT was horrible. Who could do that to a BABY and think it's okay, other than an acolyte of Mengele?

Posted by: moki at July 27, 2010 08:27 AM (dZmFh)

43 I'm willing to admit that Kagan may be right, but first, she may blow me.

Posted by: Fritz at July 27, 2010 08:29 AM (GwPRU)

44 This is good. It's the issue to push, imho.

Unfortunately, most of the ads I've seen - web ones and I think I've even seen some ads on television - have been pushing the ROTC/campus recruiting thing as evidence that she hates the military.  I think that's a really weak issue to push.  She's not up for CinC and, anyway, the way universities run (as if a thousand drunken cats were directing policies and procedures) I really don't hold those sorts of decisions that strongly against any president or dean.  Feeding the beast that is the student groups and faculty trouble-makers is part and parcel of life as a dean or president.  It doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things, and isn't that informative of what a person would do as a supreme court justice.

But lying about her legal work, that's relevant. 

Posted by: Y-not at July 27, 2010 08:29 AM (O627A)

45 I wonder what recourse there is if she gets confirmed after having committed perjury.

None because Dems are OK with perjury as long as it is by another Dem.

Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2010 08:29 AM (/jbAw)

46

Someone please explain to me the reason why they are so in love with baby killing.

My theory is that to them, life is a cruel joke and they themselves probably wish they were dead but they don't have the courage to off themselves. They don't believe in a higher power, therefore hope doesn't exist.

Then again, I'm an eeeevil Christianist forcing my morals on everyone, so take it for what it's worth.

Posted by: ErikW at July 27, 2010 08:30 AM (QNlb9)

47 Has anybody asked her how she would feel were she subjected to this procedure? After all, what prevents such barbarity to happen to adults?

Nauseating.

Posted by: tcn at July 27, 2010 08:30 AM (XPi3j)

48

"I have it on good authority from a prog friend that a human fetus is no different than a wart. They make me want to throw up."

My roommate sees nothing wrong with partial birth abortion. But when her friend suggested that she take her favorite stray cat, who was quite obviously pregnant, to the vet for a "late-term spay" she screeched "No! I don't wanna kill the little kittens!"  I wanted to grab her and shake her hard.

Posted by: Joanie (Oven Gloves) at July 27, 2010 08:31 AM (HaYO4)

49 What's really fun is that if you do have a dead baby in your womb and you go to the hospital to have him delivered, the paperwork and the techs talk about your "abortion".  Since technically, that is the case, and since you don't feel like ripping the lungs out of a random paper pusher because you are so fucking sad, you are left with nothing but a feeling of unreality and a white hot anger at those who would do the same to a live baby.

Posted by: dagny at July 27, 2010 08:32 AM (ZIwK+)

50 Im still glad that George Tiller got gunned down

I feel no differently about his death than I do about some terrorist getting greased by our troops.

You know what no one ever talks about? How lucrative the abortion business is.

Tiller was a ghoul. People should read up about what this motherfucker was doing -- including the case where he poisoned a baby in the womb that ended up surviving and lived, blind and brain damaged, to the age of 5.

Tiller got what he deserved.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 08:33 AM (fE6tn)

51 #48

Have you seen a photo of her? You may want to reevaluate your suggestion.

Posted by: NJConservative at July 27, 2010 08:33 AM (LH6ir)

52 As for actual impeachment, Chase was impeached early in the republic for the offense of coloring his opinions with politics instead of the law and the Constitution.

The Senate exonerated him.

Boy would that have made a difference today if it had gone the other way.

IIANM there was talk of impeaching another justice in the 60s for bribery but I don't remember which one it was.  

Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2010 08:34 AM (/jbAw)

53

Is beastiality still illegal or is she ruling on that too?

Posted by: dagny at July 27, 2010 08:35 AM (ZIwK+)

54 Is beastiality still illegal or is she ruling on that too?

She should recuse herself.

Posted by: nickless at July 27, 2010 08:36 AM (MMC8r)

55 There is no other way to describe this procedure other than murder.  It is not good for the mother.  Delivering a breech baby is tricky.  If there was as true emergency, an emergency cesarean is much safer than breech delivery. 

Who could do that to a BABY and think it's okay, other than an acolyte of Mengele?

I don't know what kind of animal would deliberately puncture a child's head with scissors and suck out the brains in order to kill it.  There is a special place reserved in hell for these subhumans.

Posted by: Hedgehog at July 27, 2010 08:36 AM (oQIfB)

56 54-Dagny, I am so sorry for your loss. And worse, that the medical "practioners" didn't care for you the way they should have. I was told that my child (who is now 17) was dead in my womb, and that I would have to abort the dead fetus. Thankfully, this was a Czech doctor in post-war Kuwait, and I didn't listen to him. I thought there was a part of the Hippocratic oath that instructed physicians to "do no harm?"

Posted by: moki at July 27, 2010 08:37 AM (dZmFh)

57

 

You know what no one ever talks about? How lucrative the abortion business is.

And they never talk about abortion groups such as Planned Parenthood getting *gasp* government subsidies.

Not the government subsidies that Big Oil gets, which are really tax breaks. But *real* subsidies, as in funding.

Posted by: 1969 Ford Blow Me 500 at July 27, 2010 08:40 AM (uFokq)

58 Someone please explain to me the reason why they are so in love with baby killing.

 
Power, control, and the "right" people deciding who should live and who should die.

They are godless and accept no limits on their self-awarded right to direct society at large. They are judge, jury and executioner for the unwashed, wrong-thinking masses.

Make no mistake, these same corrupt souls would kill you and yours without a 2nd thought if a) they thought it would further their cause and b) they could do it without fear of punishment or retribution.

They're no different than Nazis or Stalinists. Remember, no tyrant is able to kill millions without willing participants to the slaughter.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 08:40 AM (fE6tn)

59

"Is beastiality still illegal or is she ruling on that too?"

Did we ever get a ruling on Centaurs?

Posted by: Joanie (Oven Gloves) at July 27, 2010 08:41 AM (HaYO4)

60 And they never talk about abortion groups such as Planned Parenthood getting *gasp* government subsidies.

Up until recently, my wife thought Planned Parenthood was full of nice, helpful people who thoughtfully gave her birth control pills when she was in college.

She's not stupid by any stretch, but she is very naive.



Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 08:43 AM (fE6tn)

61

 

Abortion is pushed by the Leftist Regressives for one reason and one reason only: To undermine our nation's Judeo-Christian values.

Secularism, you see, goes hand-in-hand with Communism.

See: The Grand Inquisitor

Posted by: 1969 Ford Blow Me 500 at July 27, 2010 08:44 AM (uFokq)

62 The upper middle class and wealthy liberals have long feared a rising tide of the dusky hued and catholics. This evil goes back to the early 1900's - it hasn't changed.

Posted by: Jean at July 27, 2010 08:49 AM (l1XDC)

63 The upper middle class and wealthy liberals have long feared a rising tide of the dusky hued and catholics.

Then why the push for illegal immigration and amnesty? Because the liberals think they can keep people under their thumb forever??

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at July 27, 2010 08:54 AM (5aVkt)

64 Make no mistake, these same corrupt souls would kill you and yours without a 2nd thought...

They're no different than Nazis or Stalinists. Remember, no tyrant is able to kill millions without willing participants to the slaughter.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 12:40 PM (fE6tn)

This is exactly right.  Every committed Leftist is a murderer in his heart.   Their consciences are so corrupted that they can sleep just fine at night with any amount of blood on their hands.  That is why it is so vital for conservatives to be as well armed as possible.   

Posted by: Reactionary at July 27, 2010 08:56 AM (xUM1Q)

65 Judges have put too much faith in statements from scientific organizations. This credulity must stop. -- Will Saletan Can we frame this one and hang it on the wall?

Posted by: anonymous irishman at July 27, 2010 08:58 AM (U+gmI)

66 Read Party of Death if you want to understand more about abortion.  Doe v Bolton along with Roe v Wade make it virtually impossible to outlaw any abortion. 

By the way,  the baby killer who lived down the street had the biggest house on the block.  It is assessed at over $1 million now.  He is rotting in hell now since he died in 2007.

Posted by: Hedgehog at July 27, 2010 09:01 AM (oQIfB)

67 I'm qualitatively pro-choice, but Kagan's behavior on this single issue makes her toxic. She essentially inverted her employer's summary conclusions based on her own sentiments. IOW she massaged it into a lie.

Bzzt. In one motion she makes herself unqualified to be an officer of the Court. This is a much bigger deal than is being advertised, and the GOP or opposition party has an obligation to blow this candidate's appointment up.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at July 27, 2010 09:03 AM (swuwV)

68 I think most pro choice people do not have a problem with abortion because it is an out of sight out of mind procedure.

Why do we have sex education, but not abortion education?

Why do we have a wait period to buy handguns, but not for abortions?

Why are leftists so eager to bring the "reality of war" to the public through video and still images, but don't want anyone to see an abortion procedure or pictures of what aborted babies look like?

I know the answer and so do you.

And for anyone on the fence, it's easy enough to find these images on the internet. I encourage you to take a look at what abortion really is.




Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 09:04 AM (fE6tn)

69 what's most amazing is that, in the whole canon of Western thought and progress, this is the only thing that people like Kagan and Ginsburg hold sacred.  If they had a choice between reinstituting slavery and banning abortion, they'd get out the shackles.

Posted by: ed at July 27, 2010 09:10 AM (Urhve)

70 Barb - because they are so far behind the demographic curve, that they think the poor guys picking fruit and hanging drywall are the same as their post-religious, well educated, wealthy south American classmates at Brown. I think they over estimate the number of "Progressive" voters they will find.

Posted by: Jean at July 27, 2010 09:10 AM (3Ds00)

71 Why are leftists so eager to bring the "reality of war" to the public through video and still images, but don't want anyone to see an abortion procedure or pictures of what aborted babies look like?

I know the answer and so do you.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 01:04 PM (fE6tn)

Indeed.  Nothing produces a committed pro-lifer more readily than seeing what horror an abortion mill actually produces.  That alone would be enough - to include the full, graphic images (and samples, for that matter) in sex ed classes, to show what real life is like.  Support for the butchery would rapidly decline.  And huge amounts of profit for Leftists would evaporate.   

Posted by: Reactionary at July 27, 2010 09:11 AM (xUM1Q)

72 We were at least fortunate that when, during a routine exam in my second trimester it was discovered the baby had died, the nurses and doctors could not have been kinder or more compassionate.  We scheduled a d&c the next morning.  The baby had been dead about two weeks they believed.

It was also the first time I ever saw my husband break down and cry.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, proud iota of a cracka at July 27, 2010 09:11 AM (UOM48)

73 Yet Adler, of both Volokh and NRO, can think of no reason why she shouldn't be confirmed. 

Posted by: ed at July 27, 2010 09:16 AM (Urhve)

74 Is it really the worry that any limitations on baby killing would spread down to earlier weeks of gestation? It is. Stamp down on delivery-room infanticide and the absurdity of permitting partial-birth abortion becomes clear. Ban partial-birth abortion and now slightly earlier forms of abortion are open to question, and then earlier again ... until middle-class professional women and their daughters in college are having their lives ruined and their self-expression hampered, stuck with unwanted children. Their personal freedom torn from them. Unthinkable. Abhorrent. This shall not stand. Man up, baby. Time to take one for the team. You're a soldier, this is a war, and bad things happen in war all the time. We salute your sacrifice.

Posted by: anonymous irishman at July 27, 2010 09:19 AM (U+gmI)

75 Like Ace, I am kinda sorta pro-choice, but how far can we let them push the definitions?  I have never succeeded in getting a lefty to answer the question, "Under what circumstances does the mother's health benefit from almost delivering the baby and then stopping the procedure to kill him/her?" That question is entirely rhetorical, because I know the answer. The closest they have come to answering it is to start talking about emotional health.  Ultimately, their definition of emotional health is that they come to the hospital expecting a dead baby, and by golly, they're entitled to get one.  Disappointing that expectation is bad for their emotional health.  I cannot imagine circumstances when a partial birth abortion improves the mother's health, but I am just a low level bureaucrat masquerading as a bloodthirsty Apache war chief, not a OB/GYN.  Now I know that real OB/GYN's can't imagine circumstances where the health of the mother benefits from partial birth abortion either, and I know that the lefty's response to that is to pretend that the actual medical people said something different than what they said.  The new question is, "Why don't enough people get excited about this?"  and I confess I am baffled by that.  I can only speculate that enough people on the left and the RINO right don't think deeply on any question, and have bought into the claim that it's "just a blob of tissue"  These questions should have been asked incessantly by all news organizations the moment they alleged that "the health of the mother" required this barbaric procedure.  Same goes for the leave 'em to die procedure.  I hope this Kagan revelation shines some light on the politics of abortion, but I won't hold my breath.  Public dialogue will continue much as it has, and Republican senators will defer to the wishes of the temp in the WH.  We may never pick up the pieces from this appointment.

Posted by: Mangas Colorados at July 27, 2010 09:37 AM (ObKFW)

76 63 Someone please explain to me the reason why they are so in love with baby killing.

 Power, control, and the "right" people deciding who should live and who should die.


They are godless and accept no limits on their self-awarded right to direct society at large. They are judge, jury and executioner for the unwashed, wrong-thinking masses.

Make no mistake, these same corrupt souls would kill you and yours without a 2nd thought if a) they thought it would further their cause and b) they could do it without fear of punishment or retribution.

They're no different than Nazis or Stalinists. Remember, no tyrant is able to kill millions without willing participants to the slaughter.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 12:40 PM (fE6tn)

Actually, the reason is that there are many women who use abortion as a means of birth control - and they, together with others that view abortion as a convenience to which women are entitled, constitute a huge voting block.  And they will generally support the leftist (i.e., socialist) agenda, even if they don't believe in most of it.

That's it, right there.

Posted by: Roger at July 27, 2010 09:37 AM (xewnc)

77

Ace - someone earlier said "nice post."  Um, I don't quite think that does this justice.  This was a brilliant post.

The Supreme Court has never had a political policy analyst on the bench. Kagan has manipulated a national medical association's policy statement.

This had a major impact relative to law on the matter of partial birth abortion on account Kagan's language in ACOGÂ’s 1996 policy statement was relied on extensively by the Federal Courts in upholding the practice of Partial Birth Abortions [before the United States Supreme Court in Gonzales v. Carhart (2007) upheld the Constitutionality of  President Bush's 2003 Partial Birth Abortion ban]. 

Prior to the Supreme CourtÂ’s decision, the lower courts based their rulings on the evidentiary findings in ACOGÂ’s official Policy Statement - a policy statement the lower courts assumed was written by an independent group of ACOG physicians as opposed to a Clinton White House lawyer named, Elana Kagan.     

Kagan is a jurist posing ideologically motivated disgrace who wouldn't even acknowledge the linkage between the declaration of independence and the constitutiuon during her senate testimony.  That would entail acknowledging natural law . . . of course a good lib statist can't have any of that.

Posted by: Journolist at July 27, 2010 09:42 AM (8EEyy)

78

Shouldn't a Supreme Court justice have at least a modicum of INTEGRITY?

Posted by: gus_kagan at July 27, 2010 09:45 AM (Vqruj)

79 Due to Doe v Bolton any physician can state that for the mental health of the mother (with no proof at all) a pregnancy needs to be terminated at any state of the pregnancy.

My daughter was born at about 36 weeks.  It would have been within my rights to have the doctor deliver her breech and kill her at any time if my wife told him that she was sufffering from depression.  That's all it takes. 

Many people believe that abortion is only legal  in the first trimester.  It is allowed at any time prior to live birth. 

Posted by: Hedgehog at July 27, 2010 09:46 AM (oQIfB)

80 Actually, the reason is that there are many women who use abortion as a means of birth control -

While I agree with you, I was speaking to partial birth abortion. Support of this gruesome procedure cannot be adequately explained by women wishing to use abortion as a convenient form of birth control, as they've already had months to have a regular abortion.

Moreover, 70% of Americans oppose partial birth abortion.

Leftist support of it isn't just about getting votes.

Posted by: Warden at July 27, 2010 09:59 AM (fE6tn)

81 86 See I don't think any woman waits until the 3rd trimester for an abortion of convenience. I'm guessing of course, but I bet they think the "baby daddy" is going to step up and when he doesn't they realize they have f-ed themselves.

Posted by: dagny at July 27, 2010 10:00 AM (ZIwK+)

82 You leave my Aunt May alone!

Posted by: Spider-ish Man at July 27, 2010 10:07 AM (9b6FB)

83 liberal, pro-choice Slate

Only a reichwinger like this anonymous "ace" fellow would make such an outlandish claim. 

Posted by: Nick Juicebox Gillespie at July 27, 2010 10:12 AM (F/4zf)

84 It was also the first time I ever saw my husband break down and cry.

Posted by: Jane D'oh, proud iota of a cracka at July 27, 2010 01:11 PM (UOM4

Gets a tear here, too.

Posted by: K~Bob at July 27, 2010 10:12 AM (9b6FB)

85 Stupid emoticon generator.  I refudiate emoticons.

Posted by: K~Bob at July 27, 2010 10:13 AM (9b6FB)

86 But, but how can that be? Soon-to-be ex Senator Arlen Spector said that Elena Kagan is eminently qualified to be a Supreme Court Justice. Has Arlen ever been wrong?

Posted by: ^In today's headlines, there isn't anyone who is more of a creep and a sick freak^ at July 27, 2010 10:16 AM (sYrWB)

87

v Bolton any physician can state that for the mental health of the mother (with no proof at all) a pregnancy needs to be terminated at any state of the pregnancy

They're afraid some of these babies may grow up to be

Conservatives.

Posted by: Hvy Mtl Hntr at July 27, 2010 10:39 AM (MtH6E)

88 @78
I'm sorry for your loss, Jane.  That must be one of the worst things to have to endure.  So tragic.

Posted by: Y-not at July 27, 2010 10:50 AM (O627A)

89 Liberals lie, news @ 11.

Posted by: toby928 at July 27, 2010 11:20 AM (8/oOq)

90

What group wants this sick vile procedure??

 

Who is the Democrat Party for $200.00 Alex?

 

Oh, and both Clinton and Obama want YOU  to pay for these murders.

Posted by: gus_kagan at July 27, 2010 12:23 PM (Vqruj)

91 So evidently punching a hole into the back of a condemned man's skull and sucking out his brain is an approved method of capital punishment.

Posted by: Mortis at July 27, 2010 12:26 PM (8Cbs8)

92 #94.     Is the person is a MOTHER who is the CHILD?

Posted by: gus_kagan at July 27, 2010 01:02 PM (Vqruj)

93 That dumb shit, Olympia Snowe, endorses Kagan. Those assholes sure stick together.

Posted by: Disgusted at July 28, 2010 03:35 PM (sYrWB)

94 It's actually worse than it looks.

The reason docs don't do the "partial birth abortion" procedure on even dead babies is that there is danger of perforation of the uterus (which can be fatal) or injury to the cervix (causing all later pregnancies to miscarry).

This procedure has only two reasons it's done:

The doc can "deliver" the fetus, so mom doesn't have to deliver a dead thing that looks a lot like a baby at home.

And two: You are guaranteed a dead "thing".

Posted by: tioedong at July 29, 2010 07:19 PM (eS4D2)

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