1 Huckberry? Seriously, is that guy planning on running again under any circumstances. He needs to stay with his FOX gig.

2 If Romney is the best candidate we might as well just flee to our compounds armed to the teeth. How about a Pence/Palin ticket with Bolton as Sec of State?

3 When Garfield was elected, the House had only 293 members.

4 Mitt Romney needs to worry himself, since the last I saw of him Huckabee and McCain had beaten him up in an alley in Iowa or New Hampshire and taken his wallet.

5 Breaking DrewM a Romney guy, protests to the contrary notwithstanding. Details at 11.

6

Do it, Mike.

Pence makes sense.

7 Looking at his resume, I think I would like to see him be governor for a bit. 

8 He is running for Governor.

I'd bet the farm on that one. 

Becky Skillman not running is the biggest clue.  Pence is so popular here.. he is a shoo in.

Watch him, though... in 8 years he is running for President.

9 How 'bout Bolton / VD Hanson ?

10

A conservative House Rep from a red state has no shot. Over at redstate they are giddy over Herman Cain, who writing about Jesus being the perfect conservative.

I dont get all this hope in long shots. The press isn't going to give any Republican the Obama treatment. Sarah had two years of a Gov, mayoral and regulatory experience and they tore her apart over inexperience.

11 Pence's hair alone would garner 40% of the vote.

12 We need to assemble our no-way-in-hell list of candidates.  I for one will volunteer to throw McCain, Huckabee, and Romney into that column.  A Pence candidacy wouldn't hurt my feelings at all. 

13 Sit With Mitt in 2012!

Come on!  I'm slightly better than McCain!

14 Herman Cain. The guy is awesome and not some inside the beltway clone. Not to mention would put the MSM into convulsions trying to not sound "racist" as they trash him. He is the outside unknown that we have been waiting for. Check him out.  Heard him speak numerous times, he is sharp, and a true conservative.

15 As this post shows, most Republicans can't even run a decent bluff about electing conservatives. Lame as always.

16 And look at what happened after I was elected!  Thank you, Charles Guiteau!

17 14 Herman Cain. The guy is awesome and not some inside the beltway clone. Not to mention would put the MSM into convulsions trying to not sound "racist" as they trash him. He is the outside unknown that we have been waiting for. Check him out.  Heard him speak numerous times, he is sharp, and a true conservative.

Posted by: Meddler at December 20, 2010 06:56 PM (FkQ6q)

I agree.. he is awesome.

18 CAAAAAAAAAAIN!

19 And look at what happened after I was elected!  Thank you, Charles Guiteau!

Posted by: James Garfield at December 20, 2010 06:57 PM (mM7dK)

Guiteau was just a pawn for General Rosecrans. It was hushed up.

20 What about Secretary of Defense? This Guy

21 Why is there so much question about whether or not Palin will run? Oh course she will, just as Huck will, and Romney will. Has she done anything to indicate that she won't, other than give the standard "oh, we'll see" answer?

22 If we're going with a bland establishment Republican, I would rather have Pawlenty than Romney.  Romney got trounced by John McCain in a couple of debates and came off wimpy.  He couldn't convince primary voters that he was a conservative when the old footage from races past showed him dubious about "Reagan-Bush."  He would be weaking attacking Obamacare because of his Massachusetts plan.

23 it seems there's a good bit of overlap in their voters

I've often heard Huckabee (and other non- and anti-conservatives) say that. Is it true?

Huck's a Jimmy Carter-style Christian socialist. Palin's a Reagan-ish "Western conservative." The only thing they have in common is saying "God" almost as often as Democratic presidential candidates do. And the only poll I can find that touches on the subject found that if both Palin and Huck run, social-con women flock to Huck, because... Let's not talk about that.

Got a cite? I've never bought this. It's possible, but it seems ridiculous.

24 Need a tough, successful, sitting Governor to do battle with the Liar in Chief. Haley Barbour- all of the Palin media hate without the drama and inexperience.

25 Being an outsider is one thing. But being the CEO of Godfather's Pizza is hardly grounds for being the leader of the free world. The Cain hype is kid of ridiculous.

26 Pence would be a great candidate, he could bring the moderates, conservatives, and die hard tea party folks together; I fear with the demonization of Romney and Palin by diff establishments in the GOP no matter who wins the other side will refuse to vote for them in protest

27 Palin cannot really be serious about running. Doing a reality show with a bugfuck insane Kate Gosselein as a guest is not what I would call an intelligent move in laying down the groundwork for a presidential run.

28

Posted by: swamp yankee at December 20, 2010 07:03 PM (3DIBw)

agreed, you can get away with that kind of stuff back before the modern age where the public expected you to be involved in politics before you run for President, long gone are the days of the Buissnessmen w/ no experience becoming Presidents

29 As painful as it is to consider, aside from Pence (and he's a long shot), is there anyone the GOP can nominate that has a better chance of knocking off Obama than....Mitt Romney?

Yeah, the only one NOT better able to beat him is Huck. I predict Huck will either not run or drop out after he loses Iowa.

If we nominate a slick haired McCain in 2012 the base will stay at home again and the Republican Party will be dead.

30

Posted by: PenceBot (yes the bots are starting already) at December 20, 2010 07:04 PM (szQyP)

I agree somewhat with you, but good luck cause the passionate Palin fans are about to go crazy on you and scream RINO!

31

Got a cite? I've never bought this. It's possible, but it seems ridiculous.

Posted by: oblig. at December 20, 2010 07:02 PM (x7Ao

Both Huck and Sarah are 'outsiders' and could each act as a center for a 'god not another McCain' insurrection. Huck was used in that way to torpedo Mitt early in the primaries - then after that McCain rounded up the 'christ no not Huckabee' vote.

Meanwhile Rudy G hid in a cabana in Florida.

32 Herman Cain couldn't win the Republican nomination for Senator in Georgia.  I think he will be a novelty candidate at best.

33 does that mean he judges Obama a likely winner in '12? No, it means he feels that experience means something.

34 Love Pence. But he really needs to be a governor first and build a portfolio.

35

Posted by: jjshaka at December 20, 2010 07:03 PM (cvBW7)

wow are more moderates coming to Ace? or is Gabe sending twitter buddies again?

anyhow, I agree that Barbour would be better then Palin but he lacks the charisma and starpower she has which sorry to say is needed in a Presidential candidate espc. when running against the incumbent

36

Posted by: lauraw at December 20, 2010 07:07 PM (DbybK)

He has plenty experience in my mind, he's a true conservative who's bucked w/ the GOP when they've been wrong while keeping appeal to the moderates in the party

37

Added thought/question: If Pence runs for governor of Indiana and not President, does that mean he judges Obama a likely winner in '12 and is positioning himself for '16?

Posted by: DrewM. at 06:44 PM

Nah.. he will be Indiana Governor for 8 years.. then run for President.

There was a poll done here after the healthcare vote and before Bayh 'retired' and Pence would have kicked his ass if he chose to run against him for Senator.

Pence knows he is loved here and isnt known much outside of Indiana.  He will be a great Governor. Especially taking over after 8 years of Daniels.. Daniels will leave him with a surplus and a already well managed state.  Perfect to build cred in a build up to run for President after 8 years.

38 "...is needed in a Presidential candidate espc. when running against the incumbent."

ODipShit won't run.  He'll come under withering attack by all the R candidates and at some crucial point, way out in public view, go ballistic.  He'll be finished.

39 Not for anything, but is there any chance Rudy might run again, only this time with a staff that actually knows how to run a campaign?

40

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 07:06 PM (e4sSD)

it's such an interesting and frightening dynamic, we can have Romney and Palin as our nominees and still have half the party ticked off and refusing to vote in the general

there's a very real chance sad to say that the GOP takes back the senate, keeps power in the house, and Obama is barely re-elected because of a devided Rep party and Independents who aren't willing to back a nominee they see as worse then Obama

unpopular incumbents can be re-elected no matter how bad it gets, remember Reid?

41

First of all, all the polls showing Romney to be the most "electable" nominee fail to take one thing into account: he has not yet been pillored for his biggest vunerability -- the hundreds (thousands?) of employees he has laid off over the years while President of Bain Industries.

Now, I know the Romney answer: he had to make tough decisions, his layoffs placed the companies on sound fiscal footing and in the end actually saved jobs. What's more, I think Romney's right, and I think an attack on him on these grounds is a cheap shot. But cheap shot sometimes work, and I suspect Romney's strong polling numbers are just a couple of "Romney fired thousands while voting himself millions in bonuses" style-hit pieces away from being struck down to size.

As for the most electable, I say Chris Christie. Here's why: Listen to the average Democrat talking about the GOP nominees. For Huckabee, Romney, Palin, Gingrich they say "we can beat him/her" for Christie they say "he's not running." Hey, maybe he isn't but I don't think his chances of running are much less than perennial (non)-candidate Gingrich yet Dems don't use the he's not running line on him. Christie scares 'em. Oh, and he didn't vote for nationalized health care a la Romneycare, so there's that too.

42 Perfect to build cred in a build up to run for President after 8 years. Problem is, there might not be a country left to run in 8 years the way things are going.

43

Herman Cain couldn't win the Republican nomination for Senator in Georgia.  I think he will be a novelty candidate at best.

If we disqualified candidates who lost a primary, we would hardly have had any Republican candidates at all.

I don't know how he'd fare (we don't even know for certain who's running yet), but the "he lost a Georgia primary six years ago" argument is pretty lame.

44 Re: 2012/2016.  I think he'll go the Gov route.  He's what, 51?  That's a young man (in my humble opinion), 2020 ain't out of the question.  Would be really interesting to see him get picked up as a VP candidate though. 

45 #38  ODipShit won't run.  He'll come under withering attack by all the R candidates and at some crucial point, way out in public view, go ballistic.  He'll be finished.

I thought so too at one point, but Obama is so narcissistic and buys entirely into his own hype.  While Obama is lazy, his narcissistic nature overrule that and  prevent him from bowing out of the race. 

But when he finally goes ballistic, the show will be legendary!

46

unpopular incumbents can be re-elected no matter how bad it gets, remember Reid?

Posted by: YRM (The 2nd Youngest & Rarest Of Ace HQ Commenters) at December 20, 2010 07:11 PM (4NbXN)

Not so easy for President. Carter didn't lose the primary, but he lost the General.

47 I heard an interesting theory.. Romney would pick Jeb Bush as VP...

Why the Bush's are so vocal about their support of Romney.

I guess that insures Florida is a R win in 2012.  Just need Ohio and its over for Obama.

48

Posted by: Sean P at December 20, 2010 07:12 PM (M3QBc)

I would love Christie to run, but i'm afraid when his moderate positions on certain things come out he's toast in a GOP primary which would eliminate the most electable candidate in my mind we have right now; I also agree Romney isn't as untouchable in the general as people make him out to be; to be frank the Huck, Romney, Palin picks are depressing for me; I wish we had something better and the polls show most Republicans agree with me

49 Not for anything, but is there any chance Rudy might run again, only this time with a staff that actually knows how to run a campaign?

Posted by: PenceBot (yes the bots are starting already) at December 20, 2010 07:11 PM (szQyP)

His manager knew how to run, but "away" wasn't the right direction to run.

50 Jeb Bush is dead to me.

51 25.  What we have right now is ridiculous. An established business background with gift for common sense is an upgrade over the pretender we have now. All I'm saying is listen to the man-his depth of knowledge is vast. Common sense and leadership are the requisites I consider necessary. He has an abundance of both along with a major supply of mojo. Stupid to rule anyone out at this time.  IMO the more outside the beltway types to enter the race the better it will be.

52 Even Paul Ryan took a rare swipe at Mittens the other day, saying that he was only against the tax deal because he was trying to "out-conservative" the other potential nominees.

53 42 Perfect to build cred in a build up to run for President after 8 years. Problem is, there might not be a country left to run in 8 years the way things are going.

Posted by: PenceBot (yes the bots are starting already) at December 20, 2010 07:12 PM (szQyP)

ugh... sadly.. you may be right on that one.

54

Yeah, the only one NOT better able to beat him is Huck. I predict Huck will either not run or drop out after he loses Iowa.

If we nominate a slick haired McCain in 2012 the base will stay at home again and the Republican Party will be dead.

Except Iowa Republicans are largely his base- social conservatives who still love themselves them federal ethanol and farm subsidies.

55 Let the hounds feast on Herman Cain, Romney and Huckabee as there is at least 6 months before any good candidate will show up. You know the lefty machine has a dossier on ANY potential R candidate, with every piece of dirty laundry and weak spots delineated.

56 Mike Pence will have to genuflect before the altar of ethanol. Something he has done often in the past. And no Cristian Conservative will vote for a black guy named Cain. Don't any of you read the Bible

57 OH HERE WE GO

58 I think Pence will run for governor as a 2016 test. Depending on how he does with that, he will run later.

59 50 Jeb Bush is dead to me.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 20, 2010 07:16 PM (S5YRY)

Amnesty?   If he was VP he would have to check that stupid thought..

Unless Romney is for Amnesty?  I guess that depends on what polls say for Romney.

60

Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 07:14 PM (z1N6a)

true but Carter screwed up that 30 point lead in 1976 against a man who just pardoned what was seen as the time as el diablo, Nixon; and had Ford not made that gaffe in the debates he would have won

also in 1980 the Dems were devided so much Carter lost lib states like MA because of lingering angst that Ted Kennedy didn't win the primary; if someone primaries Obama in 2012 suddenly even Palin can beat him

 

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2010 07:15 PM (ph9vn)

FL resident here, don't need Jeb to turn FL red in 2012, he won this state by just 1% in 08 and we were the first swing state to go against him in polling, he's become so unpopular down here the Obama team is almost seeing FL as pointless to try and win again in 2012, while we are a swing state we lean Republican most times

61 I really wish somebody would bitch-slap archie and be done with it.  It is not enough that he's a troll, its that he's a tedious and boring troll.

At least palin steele got some hearty chuckles out of me from time to time. 

62 And no Cristian Conservative will vote for a black guy named Cain. Don't any of you read the Bible

Posted by: archie bunker at December 20, 2010 07:18 PM (0YS61)

Cain wont win the nomination... but he is awesome. Listen to him sometime... the guy is brilliant.. patriotic and has charisma coming out of his pores.

63 Timbo, you're trying to talk sense to a turnip.

64 "If Pence runs for governor of Indiana and not President, does that mean he judges Obama a likely winner in '12 and is positioning himself for '16?"

No, I think it means he knows he's unlikely to win. Palin, Huckabee, Gingrich, and Romney are all well known and have their own solid bases. Gingrich/Romney will pick up the moderate/fiscal votes while Palin/Huckabee will mop up the social/Christian votes. And not many people outside political nuts like us even know who Pence is.

And speaking of primaries, Mitt Romney is slipping fast. He's in either third or dead last in 8 states the PPP polled. Some of them are bellweather states too. Wasn't he supposed to be the frontrunner?

65 Hey Archie, your mom wants you out of the basement to take out the trash.

While you are hauling the cans to the curb, she is going to dead bolt the doors...

66 63 Timbo, you're trying to talk sense to a turnip.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 20, 2010 07:22 PM (eCAn3)

hahaahahahah  .. my bad.

67 Timbo, you're trying to talk sense to a turnip.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 20, 2010 07:22 PM (eCAn3)

Hey those are fighting words! Put em up!!!

68 For all Sarah's bluster about not wanting to throw her hat in the ring, I think she will run and would have run regardless.

69 And speaking of primaries, Mitt Romney is slipping fast. He's in either third or dead last in 8 states the PPP polled. Some of them are bellweather states too. Wasn't he supposed to be the frontrunner?

Posted by: JC at December 20, 2010 07:22 PM (HncAu)

Has Mitt done anything since getting blown out in the primaries worth sniffing at? I have not heard of it. At least Sarah's daughter can dance a little.

70

Posted by: JC at December 20, 2010 07:22 PM (HncAu)

frontrunner doesn't mean crap in primary polling until the actual primaries begin; remember Elizabeth Dole was the frontrunner going into 2000, Guliani had the nomination wrapped up supposedly going into 2008, Gore and Kerry both lead primary polling just after their 2000 & 2004 defeats and neither even ran again; the last time an actual frontrunner went all the way was Gore in 2000 and he lost the general

It went from Huck to Romney and now it seems Palin's pulling ahead; but again I've soured and these 3 and would like to see if someone new steps up to the plate

71

Still, there's a reason no one has been elected directly from the House to the White House since James A. Garfield in 1881. Name recognition, resume and lack of experience running a campaign outside a fairly compact and homogeneous area are real limitations.

Did not know that.  I thought Lincoln was the last one.

72 I might be described as a Palinista around here but the more I learn about Pence, the more I like.. As in I'm not a Palin or Bust type.

73 #69  Has Mitt done anything since getting blown out in the primaries worth sniffing at? I have not heard of it. At least Sarah's daughter can dance a little.

Not that I know of.  He hasn't even feigned interest in repealing Obamacare, as far as I know. 

Want to know who the true President will be in 2012?  Chaos. 

74

Did not know that.  I thought Lincoln was the last one.

Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at December 20, 2010 07:26 PM (IoUF1)

Lincoln was not serving in the house in 1860. His term was around the time of the Mexican War.

75 Ging-wretch is not going anywhere either. All one has to do is post a picture of him sitting on the couch with Pelosi advocating for BS crap and tax.

http://tinyurl.com/36xtkxd

76
I nominate Ambrose Burnside.

77 @Kratos,

Archie beclowned himself in a previous thread. I was hoping that he had gone down to the basement to masturbate to his mom's high school pictures, but I guess he is still here.

78

Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 07:27 PM (z1N6a)

yep, Lincoln was more of a political activist, debater and founder of the party then a politician when he was elected President

79 I nominate Ambrose Burnside.

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 07:28 PM (5ql/p)

Fight hair with hair

80 "I guess that insures Florida is a R win in 2012.  Just need Ohio and its over for Obama."

Your assuming we win other critical states. That would be kinda hard with another Bush on the ticket, don't you think? I couldn't think of an easier way to scare of independents.

If we want to guarantee Florida, then by God, put Marco Rubio on the ticket. In fact, I don't care who wins, they must make Rubio the VP nominee. Not only is he key to winning Florida - one of the most important battle ground states - but he will bring in a huge load of latino votes for the GOP. And he will also bring excitement/enthusiasm to the ticket - not to mention he's extremely charismatic. He destroyed his opponents in the senate debates - and managed to get about 50% of the vote in a three way race. Rubio is virtually the perfect nominee.

81 It'd be awful without Pence because there won't be a tolerable conservative in the race. Mitt and Huck are awful. Palin and Gingrich are unelectable. PPP is right on in that we need someone outside the top four. Without Pence, maybe Thune will rise up. He did beat Daschle and face it, looks matter and he has that.

82

yep, Lincoln was more of a political activist, debater and founder of the party then a politician when he was elected President

Posted by: YRM (The 2nd Youngest & Rarest Of Ace HQ Commenters) at December 20, 2010 07:29 PM (4NbXN)

He had gone up against Douglas in 1858 for Senator, but lost.

83 I'd love to see people like Ryan, Rubio, Pence, etc grease their wheels firs before considering a higher office, but it doesn't seem like we have the luxury of time. Anyone with GOOD conservative credentials and little baggage who runs is going to be light on the resume. Can we afford a moderate placeholder or more demoncrap rule for 8 years before we finally get a good pool seasoned conservative candidates? Maybe with a solid GOP House and Senate we could, but I'm doubtful.

84 Ditto with JC; Rubio must be the VP nominee. We just need to find someone tolerable/electable at the top of the ticket. That's the tough job.

85

Posted by: Let Me Eat My Waffle at December 20, 2010 07:29 PM (kBLec)

I think sadly you may have hit the nail on the head there

86
what, everyone is familiar with Ambrose Burnside around here?

this blog has too damn many history buffs

87 Ditto with JC; Rubio must be the VP nominee. We just need to find someone tolerable/electable at the top of the ticket. That's the tough job.

Posted by: Let Me Eat My Waffle at December 20, 2010 07:30 PM (kBLec)

Pair someone boring with an exciting, dynamic minority VP candidate - if only we had done that in 2008.

Wait, that's what we did do.

88 I've often heard Huckabee (and other non- and anti-conservatives) say that. Is it true?
Huck's a Jimmy Carter-style Christian socialist. Palin's a Reagan-ish "Western conservative." The only thing they have in common is saying "God" almost as often as Democratic presidential candidates do. And the only poll I can find that touches on the subject found that if both Palin and Huck run, social-con women flock to Huck, because... Let's not talk about that.
Got a cite? I've never bought this. It's possible, but it seems ridiculous.
Posted by: oblig. at December 20, 2010 07:02 PM (x7Ao

Palin has a pretty strong libertarian streak. Ron Paul endorsed her when she ran for Gov, believe it or not. Schmuckabee is a big-government nanny-stater. Other than being pro-life, pro-gun, and Christian, they have absolutely nothing in common.

89 We actually don't have anyone who's currently ready to be president at this moment, though neither do they. While I like Pence, I'd prefer Sarah. Pence needs more executive experience before he runs, and being an attorney and talk show host doesn't really count towards that.

90

Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 07:30 PM (z1N6a)

correct which lead him to go around the country as a leader of the party even though he wasn't in office; he also became rather famous and hated by the south for spreading his ideas and his party's around; he was almost like a talk radio guy today except he had run for office before

91 ...(s)he has not yet been pillored for his her biggest vunerability -- the hundreds (thousands?) of employees (s)he has laid off over the years while President of...

I think an attack on him her on these grounds is a cheap shot. But cheap shots sometimes work...

Can we talk for a minute about lack of preparedness and unforeseen liabilities? Especially when well framed and extremely well financed?

92 this blog has too damn many history buffs

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 07:31 PM (5ql/p)

We just all love our Rhode Island governors.

93
You know how Pence, Ryan, Rubio, and Palin can best help the (R) defeat Obama in 2012?

They should go out and start doing some damned town hall meetings together.


We need conservatives to start telling people about the conservative agenda.

94 I'm always ready to run, you limey bastards.

95 Um...bated breath?

96
Your assuming we win other critical states. That would be kinda hard with another Bush on the ticket, don't you think? I couldn't think of an easier way to scare of independents.
Posted by: JC at December 20, 2010 07:29 PM (HncAu)

I dont know.. look at the Bush states of 2004.  Even if the republican loses Colorado and NV.. they still win the election.
So what Red state is going to vote for Obama?  Look at his poll numbers in Red states.  Its awful.  low 30's. 
It always comes down to Ohio and Florida.. always.  The rest will fall in line.

97

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at December 20, 2010 07:32 PM (0g3ST)

he's been more then an attorney; he's been in office and left it right while standing up for conservative principles and voting against wrong-headed policies

98 Can we talk for a minute about lack of preparedness and unforeseen liabilities? Especially when well framed and extremely well financed?

Posted by: Meg Whitman at December 20, 2010 07:33 PM (Zi+FQ)

But it is so silly that anyone could catch Mitt Romney unprepared in a political context and ruin his run for the nomination. Its just what happened last time.

99 They should go out and start doing some damned town hall meetings together.

Palin has been doing that for two years now.

100 90 We actually don't have anyone who's currently ready to be president at this moment, though neither do they. While I like Pence, I'd prefer Sarah. Pence needs more executive experience before he runs, and being an attorney and talk show host doesn't really count towards that.

Couldn't people say the same thing about Sarah?  *ducks and runs*.

101

For all Sarah's bluster about not wanting to throw her hat in the ring, I think she will run and would have run regardless.

I'm not so certain- she has to know that her chances of winning the general are looking pretty poor, even if she did win the primary.

If she were to win the primary (((shudder))) and lose in the general (which she most likely would), her stock will drop significantly.  It would be much harder to be influential (and commercially successful) as someone who lost to Obama.

My concern is whether or not she's insulated in a bubble of fans- from what I've read, her inner circle isn't comprised of professional political operatives so much as personal devotees.  If everyone she encounters on a daily basis are supporters telling her she can win, it could go to her head- it would be hard for it not to.

102

Jon Kyl as presidential candidate.

With Paul Ryan as his VP pick.

I could live with that.

103
Imagine a group of popular conservative all-stars touring the country (in swing states, of course) and explaining the 'conservative' plan for America to a small audience of American citizens

Crazy idea, I know. But I think it could go off like gangbusters.

104 It always comes down to Ohio and Florida.. always.  The rest will fall in line.

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2010 07:34 PM (ph9vn)

You mean like NC and VA?

105 27 Palin cannot really be serious about running. Posted by: PenceBot (yes the bots are starting already) at December 20, 2010 07:04 PM (szQyP) Wishful thinking You bring your voters , we'll bring ours. May the best man win.

106 What about Mitch Daniels? 

Any thoughts on his chances?

107

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 07:36 PM (plsiE)

I agree it could be Goldwater all over again; BUT if the perfect storm of things happen in 2012 she can pull it off

108

You mean like NC and VA?

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 07:37 PM (e4sSD)

Yep.

109
The Tea Party rallies are not as effective for bringing in new people as town hall-type meetings.


The Left, wrong about everything, are right about one thing: to the average shithead out there, the Tea Party rallies come off as a slogan-fest.

110 I agree it could be Goldwater all over again

I think Goldwater lost because that was the first election that the MFM actually started actively campaigning for Dems on and the public was not as wise to their ways as they are now.

111 97 he's been more then an attorney; he's been in office and left it right while standing up for conservative principles and voting against wrong-headed policies

Jumping from the House to the White House is a bad idea-- and that goes for everybody. How does crafting laws prepare one for the White House? Pence should run for governor instead of trying to guess whether he can potentially be a good executive. 

112 103 Imagine a group of popular conservative all-stars touring the country (in swing states, of course) and explaining the 'conservative' plan for America to a small audience of American citizens.

Crazy idea, I know. But I think it could go off like gangbusters.

Could work.  Gives the all-stars more face time and a chance to press the flesh.

One of Reagan's greatest strengths for his Presidential candidacy was being the spokesman for GE.  It allowed him to traverse the country, get to know (and to listen) to people, and gave him "common folk" credibility that a lot of our current Presidential runners don't have.

113

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 07:37 PM (e4sSD)

NC & VA were a fluke; VA has gone back to being a Republican state and so has NC both states heavily disapprove of Obama; it was Scott Brown in 08 with those states, they voted for the candidate to make history over actually thinking about what they were doing

also a President always pulls off a fluke when they win a race; Bush did it in 00 with NH and in 04 w/ IA & NM

114 103
Imagine a group of popular conservative all-stars touring the country (in swing states, of course) and explaining the 'conservative' plan for America to a small audience of American citizens

Crazy idea, I know. But I think it could go off like gangbusters.

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 07:37 PM (5ql/p)

Great idea!

115 100 90 Couldn't people say the same thing about Sarah?  *ducks and runs*.

She's been a governor and in a position to make tough decisions; not the same thing. Now, she still has a lot of work to do, but she's still closer than some of the others. 

116
holy shit, look at what we had in 2008

Chuckyou Hagel and Sam friggin Brownback and McCain. Three asshole senators. Do not want.

117

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at December 20, 2010 07:40 PM (0g3ST)

with that kind of thinking we would never have gotten Lincoln; and if app. facebooking and twittering is good enough to get into the white house, why not being a congressmen?

118

We actually don't have anyone who's currently ready to be president at this moment, though neither do they. While I like Pence, I'd prefer Sarah. Pence needs more executive experience before he runs, and being an attorney and talk show host doesn't really count towards that.

You forgot successful CEO, which in most circles consists of "exectutive experience".  Someone with the fiscal abilities to turn a failing corporation around doesn't sound like such a bad thing considering our current situation.

119 103 Imagine a group of popular conservative all-stars touring the country (in swing states, of course) and explaining the 'conservative' plan for America to a small audience of American citizens

Crazy idea, I know. But I think it could go off like gangbusters.


As long as they're also attending to their duties in the House and Senate, I'm all for it.

120 it was Scott Brown in 08 with those states, they voted for the candidate to make history over actually thinking about what they were doing

No it was the Republican base sitting at home in States with a heavy black population and several large cities.

If we nominate another McCain it will surely happen again. What's more, if McCain had not picked Palin for VP it would have been worse.

121 Let's lose gracefully with Romney.

122

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at December 20, 2010 07:42 PM (0g3ST)

she also takes shots at potential donors that she'll need if she runs in 2012 and wins the primary, has shown some think-skin at times in my mind, and damages her image as some reality star, tmz drama, facebooking, oddity of politics that independents have grown to hate

don't get me wrong I love the woman and think she;d be an awesome President (if she didn't quit half-way through...yeah I said it lol) but she'd have to pull of a near miracle to get elected unless her image changes some time soon

123
As has been said many times before, Ronald Reagan took his 'case' directly to the people.

Going on O'Reilly and Hannity for a 7-minute segment or going on the Sunday morning talk shows don't cut it.

Get a bunch of, I know this is crazy, average Americans together and talk to them. Answer their questions Find out what they want.

124

For generations, Ohio has swung back and forth from Democrat to Republican.  It has not consistently run in one direction or another.  The trend over the last 20 years has been Republican, with the last four years being Democrat due to the Republican state party running sour with Robert Taft IV and his administration (and the general attitude of the country that Republicans were one notch below common criminals).

So after 4 years of Ted "do nothing" Strickland, the Democrats are out.

The Republicans are back in the saddle in Ohio (narrowly), and depending on how they run the government in two years will indicate how the state MIGHT vote in 2012.

I would also say that John Kasich would be very interested in running for President in 2016, if his first term as governor works out.  He has 20 years in the house, was part of the Republican revolution in 1994, and wanted to run for President in 2000. He was an early supporter of the Tea Party in Columbus, and has probably become more libertarian - Republican over the last 5 years than establishment.

125 "Palin and Gingrich are unelectable"

Yeah yeah. So was Lincoln, Reagan, and Obama. They weren't going to win. They were unelectable, right?

Hasn't the past 2 years taught you anything? A year in politics is an eternity. Only a fool attempts to predict how a far distant election will turn out. Remember, the battle of the century was supposed to be between Clinton and Giuliani. Instead, it was between McCain - who was given a 1% chance of becoming the nominee - and Obama - who most never even heard of.

126 118 You forgot successful CEO, which in most circles consists of "executive experience".  Someone with the fiscal abilities to turn a failing corporation around doesn't sound like such a bad thing considering our current situation.

Pence has been a CEO? Or do you mean being a CEO provides executive experience? because I'd agree with that.

127 Awww hell, why don't we just run McCain again? "Secure The Damn Border 2012!" It could work!!!

128

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 07:44 PM (e4sSD)

I disagree I think it was History, BUT I will agree with you that Reps sat out that election allowing Dems to get easier wins; after all polls showed that had we turned out like we did in 04 we could have won it and remember when Brown won in MA lots of Dems sat that race out in protest over what they percieved as Obama not fighting hard enough

129 I will crawl over broken glass in 2012 to vote for whoever is the nominee.

Having said that.. .I dont know what it is about Romney.. he just does nothing for me.
All I see is rich white guy who has always wanted to be President.  Not a guy with deep beliefs.

130
We can't lose NC or IN or FL again.

And we need to keep OH.

Attn future GOP nominee: DO NOT BOTHER TO CAMPAIGN IN CA!

131 130 - everything you said.

132

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 07:45 PM (5ql/p)

exactly if Palin did more combative interviews w/ the MSM it could go a long way; I always thought she didn't fight hard enough in those Couric and Gibson interviews

133

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2010 07:47 PM (ph9vn)

this

134
Forget all this for now.

Right now  the most pressing matters are...

A) the next chair of the RNC.
B) new leadership in the Senate.

If we can fix these two problems now...

135 30 If we nominate a slick haired McCain in 2012 the base will stay at home again and the Republican Party will be dead. Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 07:06 PM (e4sSD) The end of the GOP would be a blessing. The country needs and deserves a committed limited government opposition. The GOP is just taking up space.

136

I agree it could be Goldwater all over again; BUT if the perfect storm of things happen in 2012 she can pull it off

If Obama gets caught snorting coke off a dead tranny's cock?  Sure.

Don't discount how difficult it is to beat an incumbent President.  GW was quite unpopular in 2003, but still managed to win.  Why?  Because the Dems made the mistake of nominating a candidate that independents couldn't easily identify with.  How many people would relish the opportunity to split a six-pack with John Kerry (or Gore for that matter)?  Though for much different reasons, Palin suffers from the same disadvantage.

If we want to win in 2012, we can't make the same mistake.

137 130 I dont know what it is about Romney.. he just does nothing for me.
All I see is rich white guy who has always wanted to be President.  Not a guy with deep beliefs.

That. Slick Mitt is just another entitled Tory drone. He can probably keep T. Coddington van Voorhees from going off the reservation while the republic sinks, but that's about all.

138 Attn future GOP nominee: DO NOT BOTHER TO CAMPAIGN IN CA!

Posted by: lolsoothsayer

Well that is some incredibly obvious but worthwhile advice.  I would add Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Delaware and probably New York.

That's a lot of electoral votes to write off, but I think most of the other states can swing R- if the party has a good candidate, platform and campaigns clearly.

139

And we need to keep OH.

There's no danger of losing us, trust me.

140

If we want to win in 2012, we can't make the same mistake.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 07:51 PM (plsiE)

If independents go for Obama again, they aren't independent, they are idiots.

141
The way he governed people should take a damn good look at him. I don't know what his chances are, people have an American Idol mentality and that goes for a lot of GOP voters.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2010 07:47 PM (GZitp)

That is who my parents and all their friends are for...  he is all they talk about.

He is a great governor. 

Not sure if he blew it by calling for a truce on social issues.  I get it.. he was saying Rome is burning.  Just not sure if people who dont know him will give him a chance.

Plus.. he is short like 5'6.  I have heard the image of him next to Obama, who is 6ft would look terrible.

(hopefully Americans arent that shallow.. but.. we might be)

142 Sarah can't win. She's too hated.
A creationist like Huckabee (a CREATIONIST? Really?) can't win.
Romney has Romneycare, which he will not disavow. Non-starter.
Santorum brought a dead baby home. Done.
Gingrich's personal life, plus (see "too hated.")
The next Reagan, or at least the one to beat The One, is gonna have to be someone like Pence. Or Christie, but he's a squish on a bunch of things.

My two cents.

143

@8: "Watch him, though... in 8 years he is running for President."

Why?  He has some urge to preside over a bigger cataclysm than Karl Donitz circa May '45?

144 135 Forget all this for now.

Right now  the most pressing matters are...

A) the next chair of the RNC.
B) new leadership in the Senate.

If we can fix these two problems now...


I hope we do. Frankly, I'm sick of Steele and McConnell has often done more to hurt than help. He's shafted a lot of his own people lately, when he isn't undermining his colleagues in the House.

145

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 07:51 PM (plsiE)

meh, GW was actually popular until Katrina and while he did almost go below 50% during the 04 race he was re-elected because people were satisfied w/ his 1st term, granted I always though his 04 campaign was the worst succesful re-election campaign by any President since Wilson almost lost in 1916

I do agree unpopular incumbents can be re-elected we learned that the hard way in Senate races

146 @125: that's a good point. Palin was unknown in 2008 just like Obama. Thing is, no one is MORE known than Palin is today - and her unfavorables just keep climbing. If Obama self-destructs that might not matter, but the GOP seems hell-bent on helping him recover, judging by the lame duck Congress.

147
Did we win MO too, or just barely lose it?

We need to worry about MO & OH. Forget CA and NY. Don't spend a dime in those places.

148 I always thought she didn't fight hard enough in those Couric and Gibson interviews

Posted by: YRM (The 2nd Youngest & Rarest Of Ace HQ Commenters) at December 20, 2010 07:49 PM (4NbXN)

You really don't know how she fought. They edited the videos and her answers to make her look bad. In the Gibson interview they even traded answers between questions.

NEVER trust a pre-recorded news video from the MFM. 

I would hope that she has learned from that and makes them give her final approval or do it live or unedited.

Both Angle and Rand Paul learned very early to ditch the MFM.

149 this blog has too damn many history buffs

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 07:31 PM (5ql/p)

Well, it is a smart military blog after all.

150

Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 07:52 PM (z1N6a)

sorry to tell you but I know indepedents in my family and circle of friends and they ARE idiots, but WE NEED THEM

 

Posted by: Hey.Wheres.Barry at December 20, 2010 07:53 PM (hyP1j)

dude just throw in Christine O'Donell and things will really get heated

151 61 I really wish somebody would bitch-slap archie and be done with it.  It is not enough that he's a troll, its that he's a tedious and boring troll.

At least palin steele got some hearty chuckles out of me from time to time. 

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 20, 2010 07:20 PM (c0A3e)

He's John Ryan.  You know the comment turd dropping troll that doesn't stick around to ever even attempt to defend the shit he spews.  He comes in, shits the bed and then runs off like a cowardly bitch.  Previously known as Denny Crane and Beelzebub's burp.

152

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 07:56 PM (e4sSD)

Angle didn't work out too well

ok then live interviews it is

153

exactly if Palin did more combative interviews w/ the MSM it could go a long way; I always thought she didn't fight hard enough in those Couric and Gibson interviews

Posted by: YRM (The 2nd Youngest & Rarest Of Ace HQ Commenters) at December 20, 2010 07:49 PM (4NbXN)

wouldn't matter, editing is a stone cold bitch.

154

Fearless prediction:

RomneyCare won't be anywhere near the liability that some think because in the general it will be an asset.

 

155

Why?  He has some urge to preside over a bigger cataclysm than Karl Donitz circa May '45?

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at December 20, 2010 07:54 PM (xy9wk)

He will have ran a state.  He will be able to show what conservatism can do in an executive role.  He cant say that now and most people don't know who the heck he is outside of us,who pay attention, and those of us in Indiana.

He will have name recognition and a record.

156 Angle didn't work out too well

It wasn't because of her campaigning though. She was beaten by the Las Vegas unions and transported Clownifornians.

NV has become a reliable blue State now. 

157 "being the CEO of Godfather's Pizza is hardly grounds for being the leader of the free world" After the last election, I'm not sure there are any criteria. Live or dead? Real or fictitious? They're still more qualified than who we got. Rosario Dawson/Eric Cartman 2012.

158 156 Fearless prediction:

RomneyCare won't be anywhere near the liability that some think because in the general it will be an asset.

Um, how will it be an asset?  The only "good" thing about RomneyCare is that it is foreshadowing what is in store for the rest of us under ObamaCare - higher insurance premiums, rationed care, and businesses leaving the state.

 

159

I will crawl over broken glass in 2012 to vote for whoever is the nominee.

Having said that.. .I dont know what it is about Romney.. he just does nothing for me.
All I see is rich white guy who has always wanted to be President.  Not a guy with deep beliefs.

Agreed.

He's qualified, no question.  I'd have been a lot more sympathetic had Romney run as Romney instead of the over-focus-grouped candidate that tried to re-invent himself as the uber-conservative he had never been. 

Also, claiming to be a fiscal conservative while pandering to voters in Iowa with support for farm subsidies, in Michigan backing auto industry bailouts, and in Florida higher Social Security payments- he just didn't seem authentic in any way.  I got the sense that his positions consisted of whatever his advisors thought would get the best response from that audience on that particular day.

That said, if he wins the nomination I'd definitely pull the lever for him.  I wouldn't even have to get drunk first^*

^{*I would still get drunk first, but by choice and not necessity.}

160 148
Did we win MO too, or just barely lose it?

We need to worry about MO & OH. Forget CA and NY. Don't spend a dime in those places.

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 07:56 PM (BPptn)

McCain won MO.   Remember they are the bell weather.. had always picked the winner except Obama.

161 What about Crazy John? O think he's itching for a rematch.

162
yet Reid's own son lost the governor's race


NV is a funny state.

163 DO NOT BOTHER TO CAMPAIGN IN CA!


lol. Didn't McCain spend time campaigning there?

It's the only state in the country that became more democratic after the election. California is doomed - both socially and fiscally. I wouldn't care if it wasn't for the fact that A) they have 55 (or so) electoral votes and B) We have to bail them out.

And BTW, no one has mentioned Rick Perry as a candidate. I voted for him as governor - but I don't think I'd vote for him as the GOP nominee.

164 Purple lib hardon!

165

@88: "Palin has a pretty strong libertarian streak. Ron Paul endorsed her when she ran for Gov, believe it or not. Schmuckabee is a big-government nanny-stater. Other than being pro-life, pro-gun, and Christian, they have absolutely nothing in common."

Pre-NutriSystem, they might have had the same cup size......

166
Perry isn't running.

167

sorry to tell you but I know indepedents in my family and circle of friends and they ARE idiots, but WE NEED THEM

Posted by: YRM (The 2nd Youngest & Rarest Of Ace HQ Commenters) at December 20, 2010 07:57 PM (4NbXN)

We don't win with the guy who's turn it is, who is popular, who is nice. We win with Nixon, Reagan, Bush.  If you are so afraid of what others will say that you are hiding now, where will you be when things actually get hard?

The only way to get people to join us is to have something worth joining. If we whimper and hide what we believe for expediency, we will lose, and deserve to.

168
Now I'm curious.

How much time & money did McCain waste in CA?

169

OT: How special, just in time for Christmas King County Metro Transit will allow ads on 12 busses stating the Israel Committed War Crimes with a picture of a blown up building. What the fucking fuck.

http://tinyurl.com/2bwk39q

 

170 Now I'm curious.

How much time & money did McCain waste in CA?

Posted by: lolsoothsayer at December 20, 2010 08:06 PM (BPptn)

Didn't matter, since he quit the campaign in the middle to vote for the crap legislation deal.

171 "yet Reid's own son lost the governor's race"

Come to think of it, Sandoval wouldn't be such a bad VP pick either (although Rubio still takes the cake).

172 "being the CEO of Godfather's Pizza is hardly grounds for being the leader of the free world" Yeah. If the GOP puts a slushy blue snow-cone up against Obama in 2012, I've got to vote for the more intelligent, more prepared, and more capable candidate. Sorry, Barry.

173 Will there be a Monday Night Football thread? 

Attention-whore penis-wagger Bret Fah-vrah demands it. 

174
Didn't matter, since he quit the campaign in the middle to vote for the crap legislation deal.

ugh, I'd laugh but I'm too busy crying.

175
Yeah. If the GOP puts a slushy blue snow-cone up against Obama in 2012, I've got to vote for the more intelligent, more prepared, and more capable candidate.

Sorry, Barry.

Posted by: t-bird at December 20, 2010 08:10 PM (kho+0)

I agree.  I will put a 'slushy blue snow cone '12' sign in my front yard.

I will canvass the neighborhood for that snow cone.

Anybody.. or anything over Obama.

176 175 I almost hope he plays and totally gets demolished.

177 If independents go for Obama again, they aren't independent, they are idiots.

In terms of political awareness- most are idiots, and always have been.  They tend to vote for the candidate they like better on a personal level.

Every presidential election in recent memory was won by the candidate that came across as more likeable and charismatic.

178

@125: "So was Lincoln, Reagan, and Obama. They weren't going to win. They were unelectable, right?"

Of course, 2 out of the 3 turned out to be pretty bad choices.

179 Well, I don't know about how much overlap there is between
Huckabee and Palin voters, because I personally couldn't be bribed to vote for that smarmy compassionate 'conservative' Huckabee, whereas I would vote for Palin in a New York second.
Just sayin' ....

180

I agree.  I will put a 'slushy blue snow cone '12' sign in my front yard.

I will canvass the neighborhood for that snow cone.

Anybody.. or anything over Obama.

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2010 08:12 PM (ph9vn)

Snow cone? as in White?

I denounce you.

181

Every presidential election in recent memory was won by the candidate that came across as more likeable and charismatic.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 08:15 PM (plsiE)

Nixon? Twice?

182

being the CEO of Godfather's Pizza is hardly grounds for being the leader of the free world

Given the choice, I'd pick the candidate with lots of private sector experience and no public sector record over one that has public sector experience but has never run anything in the private sector.

183 @157: "He will have ran a state.  He will be able to show what conservatism can do in an executive role.  He cant say that now and most people don't know who the heck he is outside of us,who pay attention, and those of us in Indiana.

He will have name recognition and a record."

Not asking why he might be qualified - asking why he'd want to be President Minh in Saigon '75.

184 174 "being the CEO of Godfather's Pizza is hardly grounds for being the leader of the free world Right. On the other hand, being a Community Organizer wouldn't qualify anyone for so much as being CEO of Godfather Pizza... Would it?

185 I was playing Black Ops last night and matched up against a douche with the Obama logo as his emblem.I was so aggravated those were my worst two games of the night.

186

"Keep in mind I'm on record saying he must not be the nominee but at this early date, and it's subject to change often, I don't see a more likely winner for us."

Shorter version: I'll let the media do the heavy lifting for me.

187 178 175 I almost hope he plays and totally gets demolished

Your wish is granted!

Fah-vrah is starting tonight. 

188 I can go with Pence.  I know Ace likes him.  Start pushing Pence.  Ready go.

189

@170: "How much time & money did McCain waste in CA?"

All the money he spent was wasted....

190

Nixon? Twice?

Look who he ran against.  Nixon was a real charmer compared to Humphrey and McGovern.

191 I want a president with facial hair.  Bolton'12

192 I usually don't spend much time thinking about the next nominee until primary season.This next presidential election is probably the most important since Lincoln.

193 Pawlenty... what is the pros and cons on him...?

194 194 I want a president with facial hair

Go with Joe!



_{I am kidding.}

195

"How much time & money did McCain waste in CA?"

Put it this way: I live in California, and I never saw a single general election ad from the McCain campaign, nor do I recall hearing about any campaign rallies in California. In fact, if it weren't for all the back and forth over Proposition 8 ("Do it for the children!" vs. "You're a bunch of h8ers!") the average Californian could probably have been excused from not knowing there even WAS an election.

196 On the other hand, being a Community Organizer wouldn't qualify anyone for so much as being CEO of Godfather Pizza... Would it? Posted by: CoolCzech at December 20, 2010 08:20 PM

That's no standard on which to judge a candidate.

We need someone who knows what the hell they're doing to start repairing the damage done by a criminally inexperienced president.

Put in someone less-experienced as VP and let them learn on the job.

But the 44th President damn well better be demonstrably competent.

_{And better not be Newt, Shuckabee or Mutt Romney.}

197 Conservative tour: Palin, JC Watts, Herman Cain & John Bolton.

Not taking away from any elective responsibilities!

198 Herman Cain. The guy is awesome and not some inside the beltway clone. Not to mention would put the MSM into convulsions trying to not sound "racist" as they trash him. ... he is sharp, and a true conservative. Posted by: Meddler at December 20, 2010 06:56 PM I don't know who is Herman Cain (I'm assuming he is Black?), but to think that the MF-ing media would have any issues with trashing him is naive. Look what they did with Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Michael Steele (the Sambo smear when he was running for office) and even Sam Alito after Dubya nominated him for the SCOTUS. The MF-ing media/liberals/progressives have no reservations about trashing minorities who are conservatives.

199 I want a president with facial hair.  Bolton'12
Posted by: toby928™ at December 20, 2010 08:24 PM

Moo-chelle won't do, then?

200 I live in California, and I never saw a single general election ad from the McCain campaign, nor do I recall hearing about any campaign rallies in California.

There were Palin rallies and events in SoCal, I think.  I remember getting some email alerts and seeing stuff on the in-ter-net. 

But our local GOP HQ (in Claremont) was poorly staffed and unresponsive when I tried to volunteer.  And I saw people come up looking for yard signs and bumper stickers... neither of which they had. 

201 If Mitt Romney is the nominee I'm leaving America.

202
Remember HUEY LEWIS' ♪ I Want A New Drug? ♫

I want a new candidate.

One that won't...
 pretend to be a hunter, or pander to Israel, or pander to Baptists, or pretend to be a flag-waving patriot.

Enough with the bullshit; it's time to get down to brass tacks. Republicans need to stop campaigning like it's still 1964.

203 160 156 Fearless prediction:

RomneyCare won't be anywhere near the liability that some think because in the general it will be an asset.

Um, how will it be an asset?  The only "good" thing about RomneyCare is that it is foreshadowing what is in store for the rest of us under ObamaCare - higher insurance premiums, rationed care, and businesses leaving the state.

 Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 20, 2010 08:02 PM (c0A3e)

Because conservatives often live in echo chambers. The general public actually wanted reform. In 2008, they actually wanted Obama's reform. They just never got around to learning the details. There are some conservatives, who think a repeal and return to status quo is sufficient. It wont be.

Romney is the type of guy you could pull aside in the supermarket and on the spot he will break down loss ratios, actuarial tables, underwriting guidelines. He knows the issue better than anyone and could run circles around Obama.

And despite RomneyCare's flaws, this is not his plan. The legislature overrode all his vetoes and Deval further butchered his plan. And its private care. He actually saved private care in Mass, (which many people dont realize). Shannon O'Brien or Deval Patrick would have paved the way for a public option and single payer. We were getting universal coverage one way or another.

The irony is that RomneyCare did not cause ObamaCare, but the inaction of otherconservatives. Conservatives did nothing and left the issue of the table and the radicals exploited the issue.

204 I want a president with facial hair. If I stop shaving, will you vote for me?

205

Nixon? Twice?

Posted by: Oldcat

Desparate times call for desparate measures. 

Obama could still win "some how" in 2012, but unless he pulls some magic economic rabbit out of his hat (unlikely), he can/will be beaten.   Americans will always vote for prosperity over anything else, and Obama has shown most of the country that he is not that concerned with the prosperity of the Middle Class.

Just don't let the Republicans do something megatastically dumb in the next election.

1) Get rid of Steele as RNC chairman

2) Get Sarah to keep campaigning for the party and her favorites, but she should not be the Presidential nominee.  She has too many negatives. Period.

3) She is not Lincoln or Reagan or Nixon.  Her reach and stature outside of  the Republican Party is just to short.

Lincoln won in 1860 in a three man race where the Democrat Party nominee was crippled by John Calhoun's vanity run in the South.

Nixon won in 1968 in a three man race where Humphrey almost came back from the dead after the Democratic Convention fiasco.

It's possible that Sarah could win in 2012, but it just doesn't seem likely, unless a third party bid actually splits the Democrat party vote.

 

206

"@125: "So was Lincoln, Reagan, and Obama. They weren't going to win. They were unelectable, right?"

Of course, 2 out of the 3 turned out to be pretty bad choices."

I hope that's a typo.

I was playing Black Ops last night and matched up against a douche with the Obama logo as his emblem.I was so aggravated those were my worst two games of the night.

That's funny, because I was playing Black Ops last night with a guy on my team named Obamasuxazz.

207

#196:

Pawltney's biggest asset is that he appears to be a consensus candidate that the various factions of the party could live with, if not love, so he has the potential to consolidate the voters who want a more electable candidate than Palin but unwililng to vote for Romney (remember, never go full RINO). Also, he has a reputation as a genuine fiscal conservative, and he did manage to win election in a blue state during a very blue year. He's been cricitized for being dull on the stump, but I dunno, I thought his you tube "greeting" to Obama was kind of endeering, and besides by 2012 I think the average voter is going to consider charisma to be vastly overrated.

208 Moo-chelle won't do, then? Michelle Obama doesn't like it when people steal Michelle Obama's thunder. Off with his nuts!!!

209
where's stuiec?

Maybe he can put some lyrics to I Want A New Candidate.

210 No RomneyCare, No Truce Daniels, No Huckster, No Cap-and-Trade Christie, NO RINOS!

211

on topic:  palin will be the next president

off topic:  Da Bears for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!

212 What does it say about us conservatives that we seem to have no confidence at all in our ability to unseat the Marxist in the White House? For Pete's Sake... it oughta be a slam dunk. The man has favorability ratings in the 40's and is presiding over the greatest economic calamity since the 1930's. Come on folks, let's be a bit more upbeat!

213 Dammit, my comment's all screwy. This editing system really sucks sometimes.

214 off topic:  Da Bears for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They better.  My picks sucked again this week.

215 off topic: Da Bears for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tee hee!!

216 210 Yeah,2 years ago pro-Obama suff was common now anti is more common.One of the reasons this fucktard got on my nerves.Must be a real Koolaid drinker to still be on board at this point,especially to openly display it.

217

218  i forgot to pick this week

i am boned again

219  they were saving the pain for the superbowl

218

#196:

Pawltney's biggest asset is that he appears to be a consensus candidate that the various factions of the party could live with, if not love, so he has the potential to consolidate the voters who want a more electable candidate than Palin but unwililng to vote for Romney (remember, never go full RINO). Also, he has a reputation as a genuine fiscal conservative, and he did manage to win election in a blue state during a very blue year. He's been cricitized for being dull on the stump, but I dunno, I thought his you tube "greeting" to Obama was kind of endeering, and besides by 2012 I think the average voter is going to consider charisma to be vastly overrated.

Posted by: Sean P at December 20, 2010 08:31 PM (M3QBc)

I heard him on Dennis Miller one day.. He had a great personality on that call.

He was funny but smart.  He said something like he would either run for President or own a bar on a beach somewhere.

219
For Pete's Sake... it oughta be a slam dunk. The man has favorability ratings in the 40's and is presiding over the greatest economic calamity since the 1930's. Come on folks, let's be a bit more upbeat!

Posted by: CoolCzech at December 20, 2010 08:35 PM (tJjm/)

I am with ya.. we WILL win in 2012.

His poll numbers.. not just in general.. in the states that matter are horrible.

Ohio, Florida.. low 30's.  He will NOT recover 20+ points.  

He is one and done.

220

Romney is the type of guy you could pull aside in the supermarket and on the spot he will break down loss ratios, actuarial tables, underwriting guidelines. He knows the issue better than anyone and could run circles around Obama.

Posted by: swamp yankee at December 20, 2010 08:29 PM (3DIBw)

Now there's a way to be sure he would lose in a landslide. Nag me about loss ratios in the meat section.

221

Lincoln won in 1860 in a three man race where the Democrat Party nominee was crippled by John Calhoun's vanity run in the South.

Nixon won in 1968 in a three man race where Humphrey almost came back from the dead after the Democratic Convention fiasco.

It's possible that Sarah could win in 2012, but it just doesn't seem likely, unless a third party bid actually splits the Democrat party vote.

 

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes..... at December 20, 2010 08:30 PM (sJTmU)

Calhoun was dead. Breckinridge was the deep south Candidate. And it was a four man race, with Bell being a southern compromise candidate.

222 219 they were saving the pain for the superbowl I plan to put a serious hurt on the Falcons or Saints on Feb 6.

223

#216:

I agree to some extent, the idea that Sarah "can't" win is defeatist and frankly wrong. If Obama's tailspin continues, there are strands of infectous diseases that could beat Obama -- well, maybe not ebola, but definately influenza and possibly the clap or even botulism (if Bloomberg decides to run as a third party candidate and split the liberal vote).

Still, while Palin CAN win, she does stack the deck to a certain extent against the GOP. Not as much as the polling currently indicates (see my comments above, I think the polling is overstating Romney's strength) but she's not the most electible candidate. At an absolute minimum, I think GOP primary voters should keep their minds open to other, 2nd tier candidates. If they still like Palin at the end of the day, fine & I'll bust my back trying to help get her elected, but

 

224 @210: ""So was Lincoln, Reagan, and Obama. They weren't going to win. They were unelectable, right?"

Of course, 2 out of the 3 turned out to be pretty bad choices."

----------------------------

I hope that's a typo."

---------------------------

Nope, no typo.  Obama sucks, and Lincoln sucked pretty hard, too.

225 Cap-and-Trade Christie, NO RINOS!

When did he come out for Crap and Tax? I had not heard that one. That is on my list of make or break issues.

226 Why do people look at Toonces and see some invincible 2nd termer?

For fuck's sake people, you could run a half eaten bowl of macaroni and cheese against that asshole, and win it in a landslide.

This guy is an unmitigated disaster.

227

Nope, no typo.  Obama sucks, and Lincoln sucked pretty hard, too.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at December 20, 2010 08:43 PM (xy9wk)

Can't wait to read the reasoning behind that.

228 Why do people look at Toonces and see some invincible 2nd termer?

For fuck's sake people, you could run a half eaten bowl of macaroni and cheese against that asshole, and win it in a landslide.

This guy is an unmitigated disaster.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 20, 2010 08:45 PM (eCAn3)

He's Carter without the goofy grin. And he will get Carterized at the polls.

229

He's Carter without the goofy grin. And he will get Carterized at the polls.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 08:46 PM (z1N6a)

Don't sell Toonces short, with those ears, he has a hell of a goofy grin.

230

@231: "Can't wait to read the reasoning behind that."

For which overreaching statist do you require reasons?

231

@232: "And he will get Carterized at the polls"

He'll likely lose, but the Race Card should keep it relatively respectable in terms of margin of defeat.

232 216 What does it say about us conservatives that we seem to have no confidence at all in our ability to unseat the Marxist in the White House?

For Pete's Sake... it oughta be a slam dunk. The man has favorability ratings in the 40's and is presiding over the greatest economic calamity since the 1930's. Come on folks, let's be a bit more upbeat!


That we enjoy being paranoid and dour?

233

What does it say about us conservatives that we seem to have no confidence at all in our ability to unseat the Marxist in the White House?

For Pete's Sake... it oughta be a slam dunk. The man has favorability ratings in the 40's and is presiding over the greatest economic calamity since the 1930's. Come on folks, let's be a bit more upbeat!

It oughta be a slam dunk, but beating an incumbent rarely is.

When it does, it's not just due to a poor economy (or scandal), but also because the winning candidate came across as much more likeable than the incumbent- see: Reagan over Carter, Clinton over HW Bush, GW Bush over Kerry.

234 Calhoun was dead. Breckinridge was the deep south Candidate. And it was a four man race, with Bell being a southern compromise candidate.

I was about to check on that but you beat me to it.

235

When it does, it's not just due to a poor economy (or scandal), but also because the winning candidate came across as much more likeable than the incumbent- see: Reagan over Carter, Clinton over HW Bush, GW Bush over Kerry.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 08:50 PM (plsiE)

Tricky Dicky was such a little love bug. And popular with the kids.

236

Posted by: swamp yankee at December 20, 2010 08:29 PM (3DIBw)

Lincolntf, is that you?

The Romney apologists love to trot out these arguments, but the dude is simply in favor of the mandates.  He's on the record for this. This is the absolute worst part of Obamacare and this clown likes it. 

The biggest shit sandwich shoved down our collective throats in more than a generation and this guy supports the shittiest part.  No thanks.  Why even bother voting if assholes like this are the ones on our side?

237

Nope, no typo.  Obama sucks, and Lincoln sucked pretty hard, too.

Lincoln was awesome.  It was about time someone put the south in their place. *ducks*.

238 231 The US Civil War is almost as divisive in here as a certain DE senate candidate.

239 #236  That we enjoy being paranoid and dour?

And remember that in the end, there will be only chaos. 

I'm just afraid that despite all the bad things Obama has presided over, enough idiots will vote for him again because of racial guilt or some such stupid thing.  While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough people enough of the time.

240 I live in Jersey and would advise everyone to look up our cap and trade plan. I love Chris as a blue state governor not a red America president.

241 @229

Christie used ("raided") NJ's cap and trade funds to balance the budget earlier this year.  That seems to have been intepreted/spun by some as him "promulgating" the RGGI (cap & trade) program.  Frankly, I don't see how that follows. 

The other cap & trade sin Christie is accused of is endorsing Castle over O'Donnell.  Again, I am not sure how one follows the other. 

242 I was about to check on that but you beat me to it.

Posted by: Vic at December 20, 2010 08:51 PM (e4sSD)

Lincoln, Douglas (Northern Dem), Breck (Southern Dem), Bell (Constitutional Union, I think it was).

243 That we enjoy being paranoid and dour?

We're conservatives.  We believe in human nature.  We should be pessimistic.

244 Never underestimate the union goons to intimidate, twist arms and cheat to get Obama elected. This is their golden shot for power and they will not give up easily. Also, don't think the ACORN people are gone - they just don't have the name. If we don't win by a good percentage, we will lose. I agree with the idea of not putting money into the states we are pretty sure we will lose like New York and CA. I think we need to get behind someone early and beat Obama down like crazy until election day. Take no prisoners. The dems gave us some serious ad ammo this year.

245 And Breckenridge became a Confederate General, in the aftermath of the election.

246 We also believe in the jail-break blitz, press coverage and cheerleader pics, so we got that going for use.

247 Tricky Dicky was such a little love bug. And popular with the kids.

There's footage of McGovern on the Internet. Go watch it, and you'll see what I mean.

248

Calhoun was dead. Breckinridge was the deep south Candidate. And it was a four man race, with Bell being a southern compromise candidate.

Posted by: Oldcat

 

DOH! wrong in front of scores of the Moron Horde!

Ya know, after I typed that, I thought that didn't look right. Calhoun , Webster and Clay were all dead by 1860, weren't they?

249 Pawlenty... what is the pros and cons on him...?

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2010 08:25 PM (ph9vn)

How much is he willing to fight?   That's my question after reading this.

“Yes,” he answered when asked by the News Tribune editorial board this week whether, after the Republicans took control of the Minnesota Legislature in the Nov. 2 election, he wished he had run for another term.

“If I would have known then what I know now,” the Republican lamented, and “given what I’ve been through and hoped to accomplish, but that (the DFL-controlled Legislature) blocked. But you can’t predict the future. And of course, I made my decision after the 2008 election when President Obama and the Democrats swept everything. I looked at that and (decided against) having to go over there and ram heads with (DFL Sen. Larry) Pogemiller and (DFL Rep. Margaret Anderson) Kelliher and their like. (There was a) high probability of that. Hindsight is 20/20.”

 

250 244 I live in Jersey and would advise everyone to look up our cap and trade plan

When did RGGI take effect?  My impression was that it pre-dates Christie.  Is it the sort of thing the governor can pull out of against the wishes of his legislature? 

251 There's footage of McGovern on the Internet. Go watch it, and you'll see what I mean.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 08:56 PM (plsiE)

I lived through it, thanks, I don't need to see it again.

Nixon did not win because he was loved. Nixon won because he wasn't a tool of the left wing when the USSR was a real threat.

Your criteria is flawed, in my opinion, as it is self defining rather than predictive.

252 243 #236  And remember that in the end, there will be only chaos. 

I knew I could count on you for that.

I'm just afraid that despite all the bad things Obama has presided over, enough idiots will vote for him again because of racial guilt or some such stupid thing.  While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough people enough of the time.

That's assuming he makes it to the point where he can be reelected, which I'm still not convinced he has it in him.

253 Please, Mr. Pence, please run for president.  Not that he reads this blog, but just in case.


With the census and re-districting plus repub governors, whoever the repub nominee is, starts out with an advantage.

254 For fuck's sake people, you could run a half eaten bowl of macaroni and cheese against that asshole, and win it in a landslide.

This guy is an unmitigated disaster.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd. at December 20, 2010 08:45 PM (eCAn3)

God I wish I could get behind this, but the media is already recasting him in a more favorable light, cranking up the spin, and the people who voted for him are more than ready to give him a second chance so they can prove to themselves that they didn't fuck up royally. 

I can't 2012 being anything more than another uphill battle.  I doubt very seriously it's a slamdunk.  Honestly I haven't dug into the poll numbers at all, but I'd be willing to bet it's his base dragging him down.  The same people who will cry bloody murder and vote for him again when the time comes. 

255 When it does, it's not just due to a poor economy (or scandal), but also because the winning candidate came across as much more likeable than the incumbent- see: Reagan over Carter, Clinton over HW Bush, GW Bush over Kerry. Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 08:50 PM (plsiE) I never understood what was so effing "likable" about Obama. Not at all. Pedantic, arrogant bastard that holds most Americans in utter contempt. That's likable? If we HAVE to go with a "compromise" candidate, then I would cast my lot with Huckabee, I guess: he IS likable enough, and has staked his ground as a fiscal conservative. Yeah, I know about the prison releases, etc., and all that sucks - but its of secondary importance to the systematic destruction of the United States of America as a superpower by deliberately bankrupting her thru never ending social spending. At the end of the day, I believe Huckabee would vote to repeal Obamacare. Romney would NOT. And I think we all know that Obamacare, if fully implemented, would be the dividing point between the young, energetic American we grew up in and one set deliberately into irreversible decline. I'm not saying he's my choice yet - just that if the choice comes down to him or Romney, I think Huck is the way to go.

256

Ya know, after I typed that, I thought that didn't look right. Calhoun , Webster and Clay were all dead by 1860, weren't they?

Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes..... at December 20, 2010 08:57 PM (sJTmU)

Yes - all died in the early 1850s. I think even by the time of Douglas' blunder on the Kansas Nebraska act in 1854 they were all three gone.

Stephen Douglas himself died early in the war years, which is a shame because he was a good union man at least.

257

1:  To whom is Toonces refering?

2:  None of the current frunt runners give enough conservatives a stiffie to win.

3:  I am currently enjoying a nice glass of Pinch whisky on ice.  Regarding funny or witty posts; I got nuttin.

4:  Once the scotch kicks in, at least I will think I'm funny and will once again embarrass myself before my adoring public.

Carry on.

 

258 257 That's kind of pedantic.Everyone know's it as THE civil war.

259 260 - I don't see Huckabee being the get down and dirty fighter we need to demolish Obama and we need to demolish him. We need someone who will tell it like it is and not squirm about it ... like McCain and the stupid comment to that old lady that Obama was not a bad person or whatever the fk he said. I swear when I heard him say that I was pretty sure it was over.

260 It looks like RGGI started in Fall 2008, but that NJ (barely) missed the deadline to participate that first time.

It also looks like Christie (and a couple of other governors) pissed off the eco-liberals when they took some of the RGGI funds to balance their state budgets. 

So I'm still not seeing how this translates into Christie being a POTUS who would be aggressive about pushing cap and trade.

261 Huckababy wanted to give in state tuition rates to illegals and must therefore be avoided like the plague.

262 263 257 That's kind of pedantic.Everyone know's it as THE civil war.

Nah, it's actually the War of Northern Aggression, . 

263 I flat out hate Huck.Phoney social justice Christian fatass.

264

Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 20, 2010 08:52 PM (fLHQe)

Trust me, Romney has very few apologists around the conservative blogosphere. Miniscule compared to his haters. Miniscule compared to all the other bots.

I just happen to be born and raised in Massachusetts, but he has not been my choice for 2012. I just hate the constant parade of lies and hysterics. People get so offended if the slightest affront is made to someone like Sarah. But people just out and out lie about Romney and get away with it.

265 268 You've been well schooled...s...

266 Racial guilt about your vote is played out.  Libs and the Mids are saying been there. Done that.  Jugears is toast. 

267 247 We're conservatives.  We believe in human nature.  We should be pessimistic.

I would say not all conservatives believe in "human nature" (man's fallen state), those individuals being a set of libertarians who believe in the inherent goodness of man. Though I think some conservatives are too far on the other end and think their fellow conservatives will never do anything right, which isn't true either.

268
I'm not saying he's my choice yet - just that if the choice comes down to him or Romney, I think Huck is the way to go.

Wow.  I'd go for Romney over Huck. 

I'd go for virtually anyone over Huck.  Probably the only exception on the Republican side is Ron Paul. 

Huck is every bit as divisive as Palin.  He's not a consensus candidate.  He gives me the willies. 

269 269 - that and he gives me the creepy preacher vibe. Kinda like a television preacher. I cannot put my finger on it. Who was that guy that was doing other guys in a motel room and was on meth? Not saying Hucky is doing that but anyway ... okay sorry I am getting carried away.

270 I'd give my left nut to change the past and have Mitt(or even McCain) be in the WH right now.

271 The US Civil War is almost as divisive in here as a certain DE senate candidate.

Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2010 08:52 PM (Z6Lu2)

Yes, on today, the 150th anniversary of the SC secession. 

And John C. Calhoun died in 1850. He is a much misunderstood man because he is vilified by liberal historians over slavery. 

His grave is located in Charleston at one of the oldest active churches in the country. It is all but forgotten and is overgrown by weeds. His old home is actually on the grounds of Clemson University.

272

I never understood what was so effing "likable" about Obama. Not at all. Pedantic, arrogant bastard that holds most Americans in utter contempt. That's likable?

You and I don't find him personally likeable, but look at how many people wanted to vote for him, including those who should've known better.  All the Republicans who convinced themselves that he really was the "post-partisan" moderate he pretended to be, despite the abundant evidence to the contrary?  They believed because they wanted to believe.

273 that's "as Palin is purported to be," btw -- not trying to dig on Palin

274 Nah, it's actually the War of Northern Aggression, . 

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 20, 2010 09:03 PM (c0A3e)

I prefer the "War to Get Southerners to Shut Up for Fifty Years or So" or "The War to get Every Southern Road Named For Bobby Lee and Jackson"

275 I'm not saying he's my choice yet - just that if the choice comes down to him or Romney, I think Huck is the way to go.

Good Lord! What an awful choice.

276 But people just out and out lie about Romney and get away with it.

Posted by: swamp yankee at December 20, 2010 09:04 PM (3DIBw)

My main issue with Romney is his last campaign. He needs to show me something that he won't get pwned again. Same with Rudy.

277 For those watching MNF, I have to say I'm laughing out loud over EPSN's Roll Tide commercial.

It's funny 'cause it's true.

Roll Tide.

278 Pence is fine,  Daniels is OK, Huck is really the last straw, As we have seen tonight with Barbour, the media will twist, mutilate and outright omit the truth, the Journolist
is alive and well,

279 @283
Yeah, cute commercial.

And, c'mon Bears! 

280 At this rate, I would take a potted plant over Sir Golfs-A-Lot. I'm sure whoever the beginning primary voters deliver to the rest of us will be imperfect, but I'm not going to sit home and let Obama wreck whatever is left of this country by 2012 just to make a statement.

281 Never mind the statement about weeds. It has been cleaned up in a newer photo.

282 268 263 257 That's kind of pedantic.Everyone know's it as THE civil war. Nah, it's actually the War of Northern Aggression, . Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at December 20, 2010 09:03 PM (c0A3e) The British called (still call? Not sure) the Revolutionary War "the Civil War" when it was going on. I suppose we wouldn't call it a civil war if the South actually won.

283

I look for more guidance from the House leadership in the 2012 presidential race.  That's where the biggest conservative influence is.  That and the Tea Party.  I just hope the Tea party doesn't go all holy roller on us. 

Palin actually went against the Tea party regarding McCains senatorial race and cannot totally rely on Tea party support at the primary level.  I am still guessing the Rep. 2012 candidate has not been mentioned on the blog tonight and I don't have a clue who it will be.

I'm waiting for the Democrat Party to break religious barriers with the first Muslim candidate.  Oh wait....

284

That's my point. It was NOT a "civil war", by any stretch.  A civil war is one in which a faction tries to wrest control of the nation from another, not when one group decides to leave and start their own nation.

When you start out with a totally inaccurate name for the war that doesn't bode well.  The question is why one felt the need to call it a 'civil war' when it was not in any way.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at December 20, 2010 09:09 PM (G/MYk)

Since that group was not a majority even in the Deep South, this is a distinction without a difference. In your formulation the Civil War was the usurpation of the secessionists over Unionists. Until the shooting started, even states like Virginia wanted nothing to do with it. And of course, the secessionsts started by stealing arms from the nation, and firing on a fort on Federal Property.

285 287 At this rate, I would take a potted plant over Sir Golfs-A-Lot.

I don't think I could vote for Ron Paul, even over Obama.  He's dangerous.  At least with Obama the Republicans in Congress would keep their guards somewhat up and oppose him.  I don't think they'd keep Paul in check as well. 


I could vote for Huck but I would be really unhappy about it. 

286

Moronettes:

You know Mark Steyn is subbing for Hannity? But I saw him first.

287 The British called (still call? Not sure) the Revolutionary War "the Civil War" when it was going on. I suppose we wouldn't call it a civil war if the South actually won.

Posted by: CoolCzech at December 20, 2010 09:11 PM (tJjm/)

The English Civil War was earlier against King Charles. I don't know what their name for the war was, probably the American Revolution or revolt.

288

Since no one has picked up on my earlier query of who is Toonce.  May I be or specific in my request.  Who the fuck is Toonce?  Toomey?

Hazzah!  I think the scotch is kicking in.

289 TD Bears!

290

My main issue with Romney is his last campaign. He needs to show me something that he won't get pwned again. Same with Rudy.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 09:08 PM (z1N6a)

I think that is a goog example of a fiction that's been allowed for grow.

Romney was an unknown governor who polled in the single digits when he started that race. Thompson, Rudy and McCain had national support.

Romney clearly beat out Thompson, Rudy, Brownback and Huckabee and  came within a couple points of winning Florida and the primary. Then almost pulled won again, but was thwarted by McCain and Huckabee's unholy alliance in West Virginia.

Romney was a close second, but bowed out at CPAC with many primaries left to help McCain. One of his finer moments in my opinion. Huckabee was a total loser, hanging on until the end, racking up the evangelical vote and trying to claim second place.

291

Since no one has picked up on my earlier query of who is Toonce.  May I be or specific in my request.  Who the fuck is Toonce?  Toomey?

Hazzah!  I think the scotch is kicking in.

Posted by: Ohio Dan at December 20, 2010 09:14 PM (vBhu/)

Toonces is Obama, I think, since hes driving us off the cliff

292 How much is he willing to fight?   That's my question after reading this.

Yeah, a Palin supporter ragging on Pawlenty cause he didn't run for a third term. That's rich.

Posted by: lowandslow at December 20, 2010 09:02 PM (GZitp)

Look, whether it's Palin or someone else, I want someone that will fight whomever they have to fight to put this country back on the right track.  I have my druthers, but that doesn't take away from what he said.   I've been looking more closely at everyone's record.   I want someone that when the dems try to reach across the aisle to get their BS through will tell them to stuff it and not back down.   Screw meeting them halfway, if it further effs up this country.

293

heh

just heh

294 Down the Shitter With Mitt!

295

Romney's little efforts to game the events wear people are polled on who they like most also just comes off as slimy to me.  And as for Pawlenty, he's one on the global warming band wagon.  And came off in a statement as a believer in big government.

296 Since no one has picked up on my earlier query of who is Toonce.  May I be or specific in my request.  Who the fuck is Toonce?

I think Toonces is Obama.  Reference to the driving cat... I think... but I can't recall exactly how.  Maybe just that he's as bright as driving cat puppet.  ? 

297 "I never understood what was so effing "likable" about Obama" He's not. It's an MFM mantra: The Lib is wonderful, the Conservative stupid. Bush could land a jet on an aircraft carrier, attended Harvard and Yale, but he was stupid. Gore flunked God class in college and was brilliant. Kerry married a drunken troll but was a freaking Einstein.

298 Thx, Ohio Dan.  I forgot the connection re the cliff driving. 

299 @293: we're already seeing signs that Obama is being forced back to some sort of sane center by effective GOP control of Congress. I don't know if Obamacare can be repealed as long as he's President, though. Getting rid of him in 2012 is therefore more imperative than keeping Clinton a one-termer was back in '96.

300

I lived through it, thanks, I don't need to see it again.

Nixon did not win because he was loved. Nixon won because he wasn't a tool of the left wing when the USSR was a real threat.

Your criteria is flawed, in my opinion, as it is self defining rather than predictive.

Keep trying to convince yourself that a personally unpopular candidate will beat an incumbent, despite history showing otherwise.

Hopefully the rest of us who aren't blinded by celebrity worship will look at this a bit more objectively when choosing a candidate to beat Obama.  Beating Obama is the goal here, not personal gratification in seeing someone you might have an emotional attachment to get nominated.

301

Romney was a close second, but bowed out at CPAC with many primaries left to help McCain. One of his finer moments in my opinion. Huckabee was a total loser, hanging on until the end, racking up the evangelical vote and trying to claim second place.

Posted by: swamp yankee at December 20, 2010 09:14 PM (3DIBw)

But he should have had an answer for that alliance. He did not. This is my issue.

302

Maybe I should ask the first poster who referenced Toonces.

While I'm waiting for them to respond I could refill my glass.  Yum!

 

303 Daniels, Pawlenty, Romney... who is the best pick?

304 Kerry married a drunken troll but was a freaking FrankEinstein. FIFY

305

Yes - all died in the early 1850s. I think even by the time of Douglas' blunder on the Kansas Nebraska act in 1854 they were all three gone.

Stephen Douglas himself died early in the war years, which is a shame because he was a good union man at least.

Posted by: Oldcat

Calhoun died in 1850, Webster and Clay died in 1852.  Their compromises and leadership prevented a Civil War earlier in the life of the US.

I was thinking "John C......" and Calhoun popped into my empty head.  Who was John C. Breckinridge was the correct answer, Alex.

The "Civil War" was about the worst, stupidest self-inlficted disaster on this country ever, not even surpassed by 50 years of stupid Democratic party ideas, from Woody Wilson through the New Deal and Great Society. And the Democratic Party took much of its form from the disaster of the Civil War, as populist rhetoric "progressivism" was their only key to returning to be a National party again. 

The War Between the States was a four-lane smash up tragedy. Hundreds of thousands of good men dead, much of the economic life of the South ruined for decades, and the enduring enmity, even now, 145 years later.  I don't know if Lincoln was a "great" president (the historians all say so) but his Presidency was at the most significant turning point in American history.

"Gettysburg" was a great, historical and nostalgic film of a great and tragic 3 days in American history, but I wish it would never have to have been made.

Grant said about Robert E. Lee and the War: Never did a nobler man lead a worse cause.  My admiration for Lee would have been much greater had he and other prominent Southern politicians, soldiers and leading men stood up in December of 1860 and said that this war about to be waged is a tragic mistake. Sam Houston did and was run out of Texas on a rail, virtually.

 

306 The English Civil War was earlier against King Charles. I don't know what their name for the war was, probably the American Revolution or revolt. Posted by: Oldcat at December 20, 2010 09:14 PM (z1N6a) No, I've been reading my Kenneth Robert's novels about the American Revolution ("Rabble in Arms," "Arundel," etc.) and according to him the Brits and Loyalists called referred to it as "the civil war." (He won a Pulitzer for his historical accuracy) The English have a long history with more than one civil war, of course.

307 Okay I looked up Toonces and saw the SNL Steve Martin skit.  I get it now.  That skit was really funny if you smoked enough weed.

308

Keep trying to convince yourself that a personally unpopular candidate will beat an incumbent, despite history showing otherwise.

Hopefully the rest of us who aren't blinded by celebrity worship will look at this a bit more objectively when choosing a candidate to beat Obama.  Beating Obama is the goal here, not personal gratification in seeing someone you might have an emotional attachment to get nominated.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 09:18 PM (plsiE)

You are looking for a celebrity, and chide me for celebrity worshiping?

How does that work?

309 Toonces the driving cat always drove everyone off a cliff and killed them.So he really was not able to "drive" per se he just convinced people he could.The similarities to Obama are clear and frightening.

310 #303: I don't think that's right. I seem to recall that, during the time Charles Johnson's website was gradually transitioning from a rightish blog to a full on leftist one he was on an absolute tear against Pawltney and his support of intelligent design and his refusal to kiss the human-caused global warming ring.

311 306 Thx, Ohio Dan  Oldcat.  I forgot the connection re the cliff driving.

fif me

312 301

heh

just heh

Posted by: navycopjoe at December 20, 2010 09:15 PM (S9k9+) .

..................

this is a big secret, dont tell anyone............  the Falcons are 12 and 2..........

313 According to Yahoo Answers, modern-day Brits call the Revolutionary War "the American War of Independence." Guess they don't see the revolutionary part of it...

314

Look, whether it's Palin or someone else, I want someone that will fight whomever they have to fight to put this country back on the right track.  I have my druthers, but that doesn't take away from what he said.   I've been looking more closely at everyone's record.   I want someone that when the dems try to reach across the aisle to get their BS through will tell them to stuff it and not back down.   Screw meeting them halfway, if it further effs up this country.

That's who you want, but you and I aren't the ones who win elections.

There's a reason that Bush and Obama both portrayed themselves as non-partisan during the campaign- it's because that's what the squishy, non-political "independents" want to hear, and they're the ones who do decide elections, unfortunately.

315

Posted by: CoolCzech at December 20, 2010 09:22 PM (tJjm/)

I think you guys are talking about different wars. George was king during our revolution. Not sure which one occured when Charles I was king. 1600s???

316 Daniels, Pawlenty, Romney... who is the best pick?

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2010 09:19 PM (ph9vn)

he has their own problems, just as all the potential candidates do.

Daniels - VAT

Pawlenty - AGW

Romney - Ins. mandate

317

he has their own problems, just as all the potential candidates do.

Daniels - VAT

Daniels also has the ill-advised "truce" statement re social issues, I think.

318 We saw him messing around with the wheels of government and just assumed he could drive.

319 it's because that's what the squishy, non-political "independents" want to hear, and they're the ones who do decide elections, unfortunately.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 09:25 PM (plsiE)

Yeah, can you say McCain?

320 Three chicks and a guy in a hot tub.  Three folks get out quick.

321

They may have referred to it at the time as a civil war but for the last 100 years they have referred to it as the American war for independence. When you say, "English Civil War" you are referring to the roundheads vs the cavaliers.

The states only ratified the constitution because they thought they could suceed if the whole experiment went wrong. Lincoln really had no right to attack them.

322

Calhoun died in 1850, Webster and Clay died in 1852.  Their compromises and leadership prevented a Civil War earlier in the life of the US.

I was thinking "John C......" and Calhoun popped into my empty head.  Who was John C. Breckinridge was the correct answer, Alex.

The "Civil War" was about the worst, stupidest self-inlficted disaster on this country ever, not even surpassed by 50 years of stupid Democratic party ideas, from Woody Wilson through the New Deal and Great Society. And the Democratic Party took much of its form from the disaster of the Civil War, as populist rhetoric "progressivism" was their only key to returning to be a National party again. 

Yeah - the real answer to the worst president of all time was Buchannan. Trying to force Lecompton over his own governor was the largest unforced political error in history, and assured a split of the Democratic Party next time out.

Grant said about Robert E. Lee and the War: Never did a nobler man lead a worse cause.  My admiration for Lee would have been much greater had he and other prominent Southern politicians, soldiers and leading men stood up in December of 1860 and said that this war about to be waged is a tragic mistake. Sam Houston did and was run out of Texas on a rail, virtually.

Sam wouldn't let them run him out of Texas. He was too mean.

The problem was that the situation needed to be settled. The South had run the country for generations, they had extra representatives for the slaves, and they still couldn't accept when a party based on opposing extension of slavery won an election. They decided to fight rather than have Republican postmasters in their areas building the party. The North decided to fight back.

323 Forgot to tell you.  eeewww!

324 BTW why is ESPN making such a BFD about the outdoor game in Minn tonight?They play football otdoors in Chicago andd Green Bay and Buffalo and Boston etc.....Minn players have becme pussified by playing in a dome.

325

Daniels also has the ill-advised "truce" statement re social issues, I think.

Posted by: Y-not at December 20, 2010 09:28 PM (IDL9N)

Uh, yep.   No matter who runs, there are going to be issues with all of them, and people are going to see that one thing as the one reason they don't want to see them in the general.

Guess we'll have to see how positions change once they announce, and decide how much we believe they'll continue that position if they win.

326

You are looking for a celebrity, and chide me for celebrity worshiping?

How does that work?

It's called "electability", which isn't primarily determined by a candidate's political positions or how loyal their fanbase is.  The more objective of us can recognize that a potential candidate that we like personally and/or who we agree with on the issues doesn't have what it takes to win.

The country regularly goes from a liberal president to a conservative and back again, and it isn't because the voters radically changed their political views between elections.

327 Minn players have becme pussified by playing in a dome.

Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2010 09:31 PM (Z6Lu2)

Yes back in the 70s they were unbeatable at home in December and the playoffs. Not so much anymore.

328 favre is dead!!!

329 The states only ratified the constitution because they thought they could suceed if the whole experiment went wrong.

And the Northern States disagreed with that interpretation.  I hesitate to relitigate an issue that was resolved by kill a million people.

330

It's called "electability", which isn't primarily determined by a candidate's political positions or how loyal their fanbase is.  The more objective of us can recognize that a potential candidate that we like personally and/or who we agree with on the issues doesn't have what it takes to win.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 09:32 PM (plsiE)

No, you called it personal popularity yourself. No fair changing the name of it now.

331 @313: "The United States, as an entity, was fighting to force some States to return to the Union, as you put the sides down south.  That's just not a "civil war".  That's a rebellion.  You can call it The Southern Revolution and be accurate, but not a "civil war".  That is just an attempt to bolster the position of the federal government through the name of the conflict."

Son, I was just fighting to put down insurrection and restore constitutional order!

When I became President, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.  
  One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
  With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.   

332 337 favre is dead!!!

That's what Jenn Sterger said, . 

333 And the Northern States disagreed with that interpretation.  I hesitate to relitigate an issue that was resolved by kill a million people.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 20, 2010 09:34 PM (S5YRY)

The Southern States also disagreed with it when New England was griping about secession during the War of 1812.

334 I tried to do the right thing, so shoot me.  On second thought...

335

BTW why is ESPN making such a BFD about the outdoor game in Minn tonight?They play football otdoors in Chicago andd Green Bay and Buffalo and Boston etc.....Minn players have becme pussified by playing in a dome.

It's because we just got dumped on with snow again today, though officially it was only about 4.5".

336  favre is dead!!!

Posted by: navycopjoe at December 20, 2010 09:33 PM (S9k9+)

Long live Farve!

337 Wow Mark Steyn has some big ears....just sayin'..

338

That's what Jenn Sterger said

Spell her last name backward.  Quite telling.

Bill Simmons pointed this out.

339 The Brits loved to call us hypocrites whenever we spouted off about liberty and freedom while keeping millions enslaved.The Constitution really meant nothing with slavery allowed to continue,it was a cancer from the beginning.

340 I wonder what percentage of the South's population was enslaved, when the war broke out.

341 Curse you, Eli Whitney!

342

he has their own problems, just as all the potential candidates do.

Daniels - VAT

Pawlenty - AGW

Romney - Ins. mandate

Posted by: Steph at December 20, 2010 09:26 PM (kOSds)

Daniels raised our state sales tax by a penny.. then lowered it after he used the funds to pay down debt.  It was in GOOD times. I am sure that is what he was thinking when he said VAT.. problem is.. you cant even start that shit or you will never get rid of it.  I wish he had never said that.. it will hurt him in the primary if he runs. It will be played non stop.

I get the social issues comment.. He was saying Rome is burning.

But..  the rest of the country doesn't know him like we do.

He is an accountant type, a tight wade.  Perfect for our current problems but.. try to convince the rest of the country of that.

Ugh.  My man  Mitch made 2 sound bite comments and will probably blow it for him.

343

The Brits loved to call us hypocrites whenever we spouted off about liberty and freedom while keeping millions enslaved.The Constitution really meant nothing with slavery allowed to continue,it was a cancer from the beginning.

Several colonies including Pennsylvania voted to abolish slavery but King George over rode the vote of the local assemblies

344

And the Northern States disagreed with that interpretation. 

And here we are. The federal govt is the king.

345

Curse you, Eli Whitney!

Love that dude.  Gin and tonics are one of my favorite drinks.

346

No, you called it personal popularity yourself. No fair changing the name of it now.

Personal popularity with the general electorate is far different than being popular with a candidate's relatively small but loyal base.

It's the difference between the ability to recognize or not recognize that a candidate one very much likes on a personal level but is unpopular with the majority isn't likely to win, no matter how much one might wish it.

 

 

347 351 Squishes always bring up the VAT but also serious debt cutters.The problem is we know damn well it will be misused.

348 WOOT! WOOT!!

Chris Christie set Brian Aitken free
sorta

349 How would the Confederacy hold together? What if a State or States wanted to leave? How would the Confederacy answer that?

350 352 I mean later after we became a nation.They really rammed it down our throats when we protested their impressment of American sailors.

351 A reality show is not GE theatre. Stop the Reagan comparisons - Reagan wasn't a whiner about inside the beltway GOP stabbing him in the back. He just led.

352 356 351 Squishes always bring up the VAT but also serious debt cutters.The problem is we know damn well it will be misused.

Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2010 09:44 PM (Z6Lu2)

Daniels isn't a squish.  Not at all.

But the VAT would be a big mistake.. it would never go away.  Just go up and up and up.

353

And here we are. The federal govt is the king.

Posted by: dagny at December 20, 2010 09:43 PM (DS1Ec)

Do you really think a Confederate States of America would have a) not have disintegrated even further, and b) avoided the infection of Leftism that has spread all around the world?

However anyone feels about the Civil War, I do hope we are all agreed today that it is a good thing for the world and for America that the United States stayed united.

354 356 351 Squishes always bring up the VAT but also serious debt cutters.The problem is we know damn well it will be misused.

Any revenue stream will be misused.  If we get a VAT on top of all the myraid taxes we (i.e., the less that 50% of the American populace that still actually pays taxes) are finished. 

The best taxation scheme is one where everyone pays a flat amount.  No more, no less. 

355 348 The Brits loved to call us hypocrites whenever we spouted off about liberty and freedom while keeping millions enslaved.The Constitution really meant nothing with slavery allowed to continue, it was a cancer from the beginning.

The Founders should have come to a decision and took a stand on the issue instead of waiting for the issue to resolve itself. You look all the way back to 1803 and you see trouble on the horizon.

356 Total 1860 Population Total Free Population 27,489,561 Total Slave Population 3,953,760 Grand Total 31,443,321

I wonder what percentage of the South's population was enslaved, when the war broke out.

Posted by: CoolCzech

 

 

357 349 I wonder what percentage of the South's population was enslaved, when the war broke out.

Posted by: CoolCzech at December 20, 2010 09:40 PM (tJjm/)

what does it matter?  i am in the South and dont give it alot of thought........... i was born her and will die here.....

 

358 348 The Brits loved to call us hypocrites whenever we spouted off about liberty and freedom while keeping millions enslaved.The Constitution really meant nothing with slavery allowed to continue,it was a cancer from the beginning.

Posted by: steevy at December 20, 2010 09:40 PM (Z6Lu2)

Heh, I had on Hannity today after Rush.  Some guy was subbing for Hannity and he had on some historian.  They had a brief chat that apparently people in the colonies tried to have slavery abolished but george III told them no.  Also they said that one of the first things the Pilgrims did when arriving was to emancipate the slaves that came with them. 

359 longbows?

360

Yeah, can you say McCain?

Both McCain and Obama played the bi-partisan card, so it was a wash.

They don't have to actually mean it (Obama), but they claim they'll reach across the isle for a reason.

361 364 Agreed,but it may have resulted in no US at all or at least two seperate ones.

362 As someone who just finished a trip through several museums in the UK, I can assure you it's referred to as "The American War of Independence" there.  At least in public.

363 The Brits loved to call us hypocrites whenever we spouted off about liberty and freedom while keeping millions enslaved.

Yeah, well it was His Majesty's Government that allowed slavery into America to begin with.  They only changed their minds on the subject once the Industrial Revolution made slavery passe.  It was a lot harder to abolish slavery in a fundamentally slave-based economy like the South's.  Reread Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural: it truly is a masterwork of political writing, but minces no words about the cause of the war.  Neither, however, is it overly judgmental.  No one was an angel, not even the British.

364 Pants! Pants! Pants! Pants!

365 New video based game.  Morons should be able to ace this one.  I particularly like the last bit on the vid. Dan

366 What is always striking to me is how small the armies that fought in both the French and Indian War and our Revolutionary War really were. 

It's hard to believe that the fate of a continent were determined by battles between a few thousand men, and in some cases, a few hundred men.

367 371 As someone who just finished a trip through several museums in the UK, I can assure you it's referred to as "The American War of Independence" there.  At least in public.

Posted by: brak at December 20, 2010 09:51 PM (nIoiW)

Right.  But that is NOW... back in the 1770's, the British & American Loyalists felt they were fighting a civil war,  NOT anyone's "war of independence."

368 I don't know what would have happened to the confederacy. I do like the idea of the states being held together by consent and not by force. The north certainly got experience in punishing those who dared to thwart the will of the feds. Of course, I'm glad that it turned out the way that it did but the founder's experiment really ended then.

369 @375: Well, to put it in perspective, something like 100,000 Americans died during that war, out of a total population of only 3 million.  That's 3 percent of the entire population, something like 10 million if the war were fought today.  It was a mean, brutal & destructive war.

370 370 364 Agreed,but it may have resulted in no US at all or at least two seperate ones.

I understand that in the South, cotton was king and that they felt their economic system would crash without slavery. The British had made the exact same reply to William Wilberforce when he tried to abolish slavery across the pond, and there is merit to the argument. Then there's the issue of federalism versus anti-federalism and how it plays into the entire debate, plus a whole other list of issues. But it makes you think about how separate the two sides were to begin with and whether it was always more two countries than not. 

371 Don't ANYONE get me started on the VAT. A prime example of abuse? Bill Viola's video installation art was sold to a British gallery. The VAT on ART is 5% Guess what? They classified the work as "not art"- because they could tax all the individual elements as utilitarian, everyday parts (the video projector, the televisions, the lighting, etc). It got walloped with a $68,000 VAT tax... just in the SALE to a British firm. So by reclassifying an object, it gets a higher VAT tax. Fuck the VAT.

372 The Founders should have come to a decision and took a stand on the issue instead of waiting for the issue to resolve itself. You look all the way back to 1803 and you see trouble on the horizon.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby

This was the ugly compromise that made the formation of the country possible.  Patrick Henry was a slaveowner, as was Thomas Jefferson and George Washington (Washington freed all his slaves upon his death, which was actually pretty radical at the time).

It was the single most debated topic in Congress from 1820 until 1860.

The value of the Southern slaves was greater than all the raliroads and banks COMBINED, in the US at the beginning of the "War Between the States".

And the Fugitive Slave Law, its challenge and ultimate upholding by the Supremem Court was one of the most pivotal events in turning Northern public opinion AGAINST slavery and the cause of the South. Talk about massive legislating from the Supreme Court screwing up the country!

  The Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858 captivated the country, as they talked about the Big Issue that no one dared to speak of.  Even though the Tea Party of 2010 was riduled by the intelligentsia, this is of the same grassroots political cloth that moved the country at that time. People know that something is terribly wrong, and are not getting the truth from anywhere normally expected.

373 And to be the fair to the Brits, they abolished slavery in 1807, well before the industrial revolution had made it a moot point.  They were still raking it in from their plantations in the Caribbean.

374

It's the difference between the ability to recognize or not recognize that a candidate one very much likes on a personal level but is unpopular with the majority isn't likely to win, no matter how much one might wish it.

 Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 09:44 PM (plsiE)

Well, that means as of right now, we're screwed, because not one of the potential candidates is liked by anyone other than their own base, right?     If any one of those candidates wins the primary, a whole hell of a lot of people are going to have to hold their nose, again.

375 They invented Piracy.

376 Ugh.  My man  Mitch made 2 sound bite comments and will probably blow it for him

Mitch was governor during part of my time in Indiana.  Obviously, he was a big improvement over the previous guy, who always struck me as a crook. But he really doesn't project much of a vision.  If you're a candidate who stands for something, you can survive bad sound bites.  If you're just a CPA-type without the leadership visionary gene, the sound bites kill you. 

Now maybe he has some sort of Big Ideas, but if he does, I don't know what they are... and I lived in his state. 

377

Yeah, well it was His Majesty's Government that allowed slavery into America to begin with.  They only changed their minds on the subject once the Industrial Revolution made slavery passe.  It was a lot harder to abolish slavery in a fundamentally slave-based economy like the South's.  Reread Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural: it truly is a masterwork of political writing, but minces no words about the cause of the war.  Neither, however, is it overly judgmental.  No one was an angel, not even the British.

Especially considering that the English played a large role in organizing and conducting the slave trade.  Most people don't know that the vast majority of African slaves weren't sent to the US, but to European colonies.

378 Doing some family tree research, I found out my husband's family owned slaves. The interesting part is, they were Cherokee Indians. I haven't yet found out how or when they emancipated them.

379

That didn't come out clearly.

The relatives were Cherokee and owned black slaves.

380

whoever was right or wrong on this, it turned out the way it did. you cant change that........

the North won and got their way.........

My question is......... if the North was so Fucking smart about everything. How come so many people from the North and the West are moving here toget out of their states?

381 383 

This was the ugly compromise that made the formation of the country possible.  Patrick Henry was a slaveowner, as was Thomas Jefferson and George Washington (Washington freed all his slaves upon his death, which was actually pretty radical at the time).

I understand that, and coming down against the South would have meant no United States; the same with similar feelings towards the North. It was a different era and the choice wasn't simple, as the Southern economy was tied to slavery-- no way around that. The war was inevitable. It's just interesting to me that many of the Founders couldn't agree among themselves about certain issues and we're still troubled by many of the same today.

382

Yeah, well it was His Majesty's Government that allowed slavery into America to begin with.

Interestingly, it didn't quite go that way.  The colonies had a system of indentured servitude.  It's often portrayed as slavery for a fixed period of time, but I think the comparison to serfdom is a bit more apt.

One of those indentured servants was an Angolan named Anthony Johnson.  He was then freed and had a servant of his own named John Casor, also an African.  Casor after a few years went to work for a white man, asserting that he was free of the indenture.  Johnson argued that there was no indenture and that Casor was his servant for life.

In 1654, he went to court in Virginia and won the case.  That is the first recorded incidence of slavery in the colonies.  It was a precedent that held.  It seems that his main argument is that Virginia could not restrict his right to have a fellow African as his slave.  So I guess it was a multicultural thing.

383

Well, that means as of right now, we're screwed, because not one of the potential candidates is liked by anyone other than their own base, right?     If any one of those candidates wins the primary, a whole hell of a lot of people are going to have to hold their nose, again.

Being relatively unknown isn't the same as being unpopular.

It's far easier to build a favorable impression among a majority who have no clue who a Mike Pence (for example) is than turning around a negative impression towards a very well known candidate.

384 Indians redskins noble savages native americans owned slaves long before the white devil got here.

385 CoolCzech #260

But Obama PORTRAYED himself as likable.   He gave very few interviews (mostly with people who would ask approved questions).  He gave that Hope and Change speech with adoring crowds.  He and Michelle and the girls were dressed like Cliff and Claire Huxtable with Rudi and Vanessa in tow. (Go back and compare the campaign photos of them with how they look now)

It was all fake,  but most people didn't know that,  so to them he WAS the more likable.

Especially compared with a guy who was 30 years older,  looked 40 years older,  and made everyone think that any minute he was going to yell "Get of my lawn."

386 384 And to be the fair to the Brits, they abolished slavery in 1807, well before the industrial revolution had made it a moot point.  They were still raking it in from their plantations in the Caribbean.

Posted by: brak at December 20, 2010 10:00 PM (nIoiW)

Not quite right.  Britain banned the importation of slaves in 1807 and the US in 1808.  (In fact, the plan to ban the importation had been in the works for several decades -- it was part of the Constitution.)

The Brits didn't outlaw slavery in the empire until 1833.

387

As for the race itself, I askedthis question on Twitter earlier: As painful as it is to consider, aside from Pence (and he's a long shot), is there anyone the GOP can nominate that has a better chance of knocking off Obama than....Mitt Romney?

Possibly.

But such a person is not Sarah Palin.

Which is a point that needs to be hammered into people's heads as often and as hard as possible until it seeps in.  Well, I mean, into the heads of "true conservatives".  Pretty much EVERYONE else realizes that Palin can't win, even if they want her to.

388 I stand corrected then.  Still fairly early in the industrial revolution timeframe though.

389

Which is a point that needs to be hammered into people's heads as often and as hard as possible until it seeps in.  Well, I mean, into the heads of "true conservatives".  Pretty much EVERYONE else realizes that Palin can't win, even if they want her to.

Posted by: Vyceroy at December 20, 2010 10:19 PM (xrXBs)

You can do that, but you will need them to win the presidency, so better be careful & not be an ass about it.

390 mas bro kunjungi gayuh di Asuhan Keperawatan, Laporan Pendahuluan, Mobil Keluarga Ideal Terbaik Indonesia ya.... salam ngekngok bung... sambil nyanyi yuk Song Lyric badboybaik

391 "382 Don't ANYONE get me started on the VA" You called? It'll just be a teensy weensie VAT, and it's for the children...

392 Da Bears.

393 Mike Pence is a very nice man,  has a wonderful wife,  nice children,  and is very conservative.

He has zero executive experience.  He is unknown outside of Indiana,  even after being the leader of the Conservative Caucus for a few years.

He is not quick on his feet in interviews and debates.  I have seen him on enough Sunday shows to know this.  Quite often he misses a chance to make a good point,  misunderstands a question,  or lets the opponent or the interviewer box him into a corner.

He is not gifted with much of a sense of humor,  and what he does have is dry and not easily understood.  And he is very pompous about his positions,  including his religious beliefs.

He really needs to be governor and get some experience in having to actually run something.  Right now,  what he has mostly done is take pot shots at obama,  and before him,  Bush.

I am from Indiana and have lived in the district next to his for 30 years.  I just do not see him as mounting an effective candidacy,  and certainly not a winning one in the general election.

Governor Daniels might do better because he IS able to explain fiscal issues to people.  That is a plus.   His wife might be the one drawback,  as I think she is not willing to go through a campaign.  (She divorced Daniels,  took their daughters and moved to California where she married some doctor.  She then divorced him and Daniels took her back.  It is their business,  and has never bothered anyone from here,  but the national media would tear her to shreds.)

394 The dynamic between a Palin-Obama match up will completely change during the primary and change even more when the general election happens. I would not be worried this far out, and I am not.

395 You know I've noticed something that just may be my perception, but so often I see people going after the potential candidates.  Attacking them, pointing out flaws and mistakes they've made giving reasons why they personally won't be voting for them.  But I never see many saying "They can't win."  The first thing out of a person that does not like Palin as a candidate is "She can't win"

396 >>It's the difference between the ability to recognize or not recognize that a candidate one very much likes on a personal level but is unpopular with the majority isn't likely to win, no matter how much one might wish it. Posted by: Hollowpoint at December 20, 2010 09:44 PM (plsiE) How far you have come when just a couple years ago you were one of the biggest supporters of the vanity campaigns in modern history, Fred! By the way, you should stop saying Romney ever supported a bailout of the automakers because it never happened. Google it, Bing it, pull it out of your ass .. you are never going to find a quote that backs up that statement because it never happened. Or you could prove me wrong. Put up or shut up.

397 182 Well, I don't know about how much overlap there is between Huckabee and Palin voters, because I personally couldn't be bribed to vote for that smarmy compassionate 'conservative' Huckabee, whereas I would vote for Palin in a New York second. Just sayin' .... Posted by: prochazka_the_insane at December 20, 2010 08:16 PM (jNNWD) Amen.

398 pull it out of your ass .. Or you could prove me wrong. Put up or shut up. Posted by: JackStraw at December 20, 2010 11:25 PM (TMB3S) I think that I could "find" a quote that meets that requirement ...

399 The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk. Federal guarantee of financing is essentially promising a bailout if necessary.

400 >>I think that I could "find" a quote that meets that requirement ... Most "True Conservatives" could and do daily. Hot Air is full of this type of Rain Man conservative. Sucks when they infest this place.

401

Mr. Romney proposed increased government spending for research on advanced fuels and vehicles, aid to automakers to deal with the costs of health care and pensions for retirees, and tax cuts for most taxpayers to help them buy new cars.

Link Why did Romney think that the government needed to spend money on research for vehicles?

402 Why did Sarah Palin lie about her small government cred? But Palin didn't cut the size of government as mayor of Wasilla, and she hasn't done so as Alaska's governor, city and state budget records show. Spending in fast-growing Wasilla increased by 55% during her tenure from 1996-2002, records show. In nearly two years as governor, she has presided over a 31% spending hike by a state government that sought earmarks from Washington even as it reaped billions from higher oil prices and Palin-backed tax increases on oil companies. http://tinyurl.com/6ha9q9 We can play this game all night. Neither politician is pure, least of all the one who pretends she is. I'm still waiting for the link that says Romney asked for a bailout for automakers. Save your time, it never happened.

403 I thought you wanted to talk about Romeny JackStraw.  How would Romney aid automakers with health insurance and pensions without giving them money?

404 No you didn't, buzzion. You thought you had a gotcha on Romney and you didn't. Every candidate in the history of man has talked about spending federal money to help specific states. I asked Hollowpoint to back up his claim that Romney advocated bailing out Detroit automakers. I asked because I know it's a lie, as I've said repeatedly, it never happened. Quite the contrary, he said that they should be allowed to go bankrupt and reorganize. So do you now want to talk about Palin's exploding of spending during her tenure of mayor and governor?

405

I don't really give a shit about what Palin was doing.  Can't you talk about your butt buddy Mittens without talking about her?  You wanted to talk about Romney bailing out the auto industry.  How do you give them aid for health insurance and pensions without giving them money? 

406 You wanted to talk about Romney bailing out the auto industry. No, actually, I didn't. Primarily because as I have said repeatedly he never said he wanted to bail out the auto industry. In fact, he said, repeatedly, just the opposite. That is just another lie that keeps getting repeated and I am waiting for one of you to prove it. What he said is that the feds should be investing the money that the federal government has always had at its disposal to invest in R&D to help US auto makers become more competitive. "We ought to be investing substantial money here in Michigan in fuel technologies, in energy technologies, in materials science, in automotive technologies, basic science where products can be spun out and licensed to manufacturers who are willing to build here," Romney said. "We have to invent the technology." http://tinyurl.com/2f4jjwc Those are his words, not the words of the NYT.

407 And if you still don't get it, here is an editorial printed in the very same NYT you quoted that make it clear exactly how investing in basic research is explicitly not the same as bailing out a failing industry. http://tinyurl.com/6hhx3x If you don't like Romney, fine. But get your facts straight. Repeating dumbass liberal talking points is just that, dumbass.

408 Oh and butt buddy Mittens? Go fuck yourself.

409

 No, actually, I didn't.

By the way, you should stop saying Romney ever supported a bailout of the automakers because it never happened. Google it, Bing it, pull it out of your ass .. you are never going to find a quote that backs up that statement because it never happened.

If you want to say he didn't support the bailout Obama pushed through fine.  But go ahead and explain how you provide aid for health insurance and pensions without giving them money?  Bailout does not just mean "put the government in charge like Obama did or whatever definition I can use to claim that Romney didn't want to bail them out"

410

@340: *bang*

Sic semper tyrannis, bitch.

411 Let's make it clear:

I'm sticking with Palin. I'm tired of moving around and jockeying. I'm gonna stick with the consistence that I've come to expect from Palin.

And no one, not "poptech", PrezHussein, or anyone else, will dissuade me from my decision.

412 We're gonna send in The Depends. That always works for us.

413 People here are out of their minds. Yeah, sure, run for governor, Mike. We can wait 8 years. Headslap! It's now or never. Romney my ass. We need a guy committed to checking the power of the prog establishment not some RINO technocrat. It's simple - he's the most electable true con. Wake up.

414 Romney in 2012 = Nixon in 1968. Screw that noise. Pence can appoint him Secretary of the Treasury - fine. He isn't what the country needs as far as the real war.

415 Please watch this video. Pence is for real. http://tinyurl.com/28rp522

416

"so if he runs, she may not"

Reality stood on its head.

"Of course all of that will have an impact on Mitt Romney's chances."

Which are good compared with those of Harold Stassen.

You losers(Ace, Gabe, Drew) should just drink the Kool-Aid now.  The almond aftertaste is a bonus.

417 I agree with all those who say Pence needs executive experience first.  At the risk of making an unfavorable comparison, Obama is an example of what could happen when you take a legislator with no executive experience and put him in the top seat.  While Pence shares our overall ideology, I think we'd be well served with an executive, not with a legislator, as president.

418

All GOP presidential candidates will first have to receive full blessings from George Will's "30% highly educated whites" otherwise the GOP Ruling Class  will give Obama another term.

 

Acers of Spades-you don't even matter, it's up to Dr Krauthammer to choose for you.  Suckas.

 

 

419 @23 I'm a so-con and I will NEVER vote for Huckabee. I can't help but wonder if so-cons who are all about some Huck have taken the time to look at his overall record. Just because people are (claim to be) believers doesn't automatically give them good fiscal sense and discernment.

420 Another republican who isn't a fiscal conservative will do way more harm to the republican party and to the country over the long run. I don't want another George Bush expanding the federal government yet more.

421

Personally, my dream ticket would be Palin/Bolten... and I wouldn't care who was at the top of the ticket! As for Mitt- I give you Romneycare. Seriously, most people look at him and see PlasticMan- he'll bend any way you want, but springs back to Progressive-lite!  And Huckabee is a better entertainer than politician, IMHO. I'll vote Libertarian if he's on the ticket- if I have to vote for an idiot, I'll at least vote for one who shares some of my beliefs.

 

422

I don´t care about name recognition. These things change all the time. Get the best guy.

Successful presidents are usually former governors. Right now the best conservative governors with two terms under their belt are Pawlenty and Daniels. They got elected and re-elected in states which went for Obama. They have already proved that they are principled fiscal conservatives who won´t fold under attack. And in the pipeline we have Jindal, Christie and other honest, smart and competent governors who will all be able to run beginning in 2016.

 

 

423 If Pence runs he'll be the first to ever get a max donation from me. (and I sure as hell can't afford it...I just can't afford NOT to either) Going the governor route would be a mistake I think. The electorate will be the most receptive to him in '12. The major grassroots activism could be gone by '16 or '20. If he has presidential aspirations I think he needs to run next time and finish at least second in the primary. (or maybe a VERY solid third)