1

A federalist defense of Massachusetts health care system and RomneyÂ’s central role in creating it, is one that is going to require a fair bit of nuanced thinking on the part of most voters.

Yeah, that's the ticket.  Plus, what conservative could do a better job of running our national economy that my man Mittens? 

2
it's worth reading his version of the story.

Which version you get seems to depend on the day of the week and audience to which he is speaking. 

No thanks.

3 Heckler gets under Obamas skin

4

I'd have more respect for this guy if the explanation was "Look, something needed to be done, and we tried something at the state level.  It failed.  Miserably.  When you take into account that it didn't work in a wealthy, largely liberal state and then somehow find the hubris to believe the federal government can do a more effective job implementing the same plan at the national level, the argument for Obamacare becomes even more absurd."

The "had Dems not killed my vetoes everything would have worked out fine" has too much Obama-like selfishness to it for my liking.  That's not an argument against Obamacare.  It's an argument against Democrats governing while implementing Obamacare. 

5 Romney may be right. I don't think he is, but he may be. Problem is, its not a debate I am interested in right now. I just want the whole damn thing reformed and any "nuanced" discussion about it weakens that effort. I like Romney but I just wish he wasn't running. He is a liability to the party right now. He would effectively be John Kerry in 2004 who was for the war before he was against it and could not hit Bush hard on his biggest weakness. It's too bad, because I think Romney is a good man, but his most famous political achievement is the very thing that makes his candidacy untenable right now.

6 I've always felt that health care reform needed to be talked about in terms of three c's: coverage,cost, and care.  Having the first doesn't matter if you aren't improving the second two.Yet, this is all ObamaCare and MasaCare focus on, which is why Romney is in trouble.

If costs aren't contained and care isn't improved, who gives a crap about coverage?

7

I'm not sold on Mitt, but I do remember during the Presidential Primary debates he was very much for letting the states come up with plans to do what they felt was right for their individual states. He also defended what he did signed off on in MA as "sustainable", but the following Gov and legislature made changes that put it into the sorry state it is now.

I believe it was at the Reagan Library debate.

I do not speak to the veracity of the second half (the sustainability of Romneycare part), but at least he has been pretty consistent on keeping the federal gov't role limited.

8 There may be some wonkish differences between RomneyÂ’s scheme of mandates, exchanges and subsidies when compared to ObamaÂ’s scheme of mandates, exchanges and subsidies but most people arenÂ’t going to see them. When Romney says what he supported as Governor is different than what heÂ’d support as President, he is asking voters to take a pretty big leap.

Especially when neither plan is morally supportable on any grounds, being based on coercion.

Instead of trying to figure out how to pretend not to be a gun-grabbing statist RINO turd, Slick Mitt ought to be learning how to say "Mea culpa, mea culpa, Romnius maxima culpas," and swearing a blood oath to go and sin no more. But a gun-grabbing statist RINO turd is exactly what he is and all he apparently will ever be, so no sale today, no sale tomorrow, no sale forever.

9 Mitt would ultimately make a decent POTUS, being right on most issues, but is a terrible candidate.  This health care business will sink him for sure.
 

10 Certain. Fucking. Doomney. This asshole had two chances to declare himself for individual liberty: 1) Vetoing the legislation in the first place. Signing a bill forcing citizens to buy a product at gunpoint is not how you establish your conservative bona fides. It would have positioned him perfectly for an "I told you so moment," and given him (and the opposition) a taller soapbox during the Obamacare debate. 2) Publicly declaring that "Hey, you know what? We tried it on a very small scale and IT DOESN'T WORK. I was wrong. We were wrong. That's why I support market-based reforms, because history has shown that YOU know how best to spend your money and will get the best bang for your buck." He didn't do either of those things. Even worse, his ego doubled down with "It would have worked if they only listened to me." No. Fuck that and fuck you and fuck your secret underwear, Mitt. I would rather elect Mavericky John "Maverick" McMavericain than your sorry, Magic Shell helmeted ass. I hope you take the gas pipe, you sorry motherfucker.

11

The "had Dems not killed my vetoes everything would have worked out fine" has too much Obama-like selfishness to it for my liking.  That's not an argument against Obamacare.  It's an argument against Democrats governing while implementing Obamacare. 

Exactly. It would be one thing had Mitt said he learned a lot from screwing up and went on to state exactly what he had learned to do and what he had learned *not* to do again, with a free market orientation in mind. I might have liked him there, and he could still have uses his technocratic managerial wonkishness to his advantage. But this is technocratic blindness of the big-gov't-is-OK-as-long-as-I-am-running-it sort.

But as with Michael Dukakis, competence is not enough, because bad and unprincipled policy will end up incompetent no matter what you do.

I'm with John Thune in '12 at this point, although at this point it is still Tea Leaf reading. Not until 2011 can we really start picking faves. In 2010 it is still too early, and by 2012 it will be too late, as "Teh Ferd" taught us.

12 I thought that the republicans had terrible choices for president in this last election.  I like Guiliani, he would be a great president if he is still the same Guiliani who cleaned up NYC and was a federal prosecutor of the mob...
Always thought Romney was a great business man cause of how he cleaned up the Olympics, that being said, the Olympics can't make up for the way he messed up the MA health care system.
McCain would probably have gotten us into another war, someplace we hadn't even thought about.
If a candidate appeals to the heart land, they don't appeal to the coasts.  This is the essential problem.

Hate the idea that Romney thinks he can run again, and try again to buy his way into the presidency.  These guys are professional politicians.  They said "I'll be a republican" or "I'll be a democrat" not because they adhere to the party platform and principles but for other, expedient reasons.   I don't care that you will all yell at me, but politicians are all the same with a different letter after their name.  They are beholden to the people who give them the money to run, with strings attached and they refuse to admit that those people are who matter not the American people.  They don't listen to the American people at all, they all prove this over and over.  They don't care what Americans think.  They assume, all of them, that we are "too stupid to know what is good for us" and therein lies the problem.

13 If I were a leftist, I'd say that it is inevitable that the Democrats will be dropping hugely in power, I'd go with Romney as a fall back position. I think we'll see a lot of left wing crossover votes for Romney in the open primary states. If that happens, I also think we'll see a lot of the Obama agenda remaining intact, and worse of all, the momentum built up by the Tea Party and the popular upset over Obama's control getting washed out. This is why Romney must be stopped. Not because he isn't a nice guy, but because he's the next George Bush.

14 And another thing. I don't like "nuance." Only faggots and sailors use "nuance." Elections are about character and ideas. Men of character say what they mean and mean what they say. Men of character can explain their positions in clear, concise terms that leave no doubt as to their meaning. "America is the shining City on a Hill" "The Soviet Union is the evil Empire." You are for individual liberty and less governmental intrusion or YOU ARE NOT. Not some of the time, or in certain circumstances, with the proper oversight, blah blah blah. Jettison this hairdried bitch and put a man with some fucking balls and convictions up there. We have them, but they must be recruited, because by and large they find rubbing shoulders with opportunist shitheels like Mitt Romney distasteful and a waste of time.

15 Again, being involved in health ins. as he was may be a liability in the primaries but its probably an asset in November psychologically; it defangs someone who is right of center in the eyes of many voters, and does irrespective of what he did or did not so In terms of actual policy.

16 Why does this typical white man want to deny to the suffering uninsured of the entire nation what he gleefully offered Massachusett(e)s? I love this guy. A coiffed, tailored, walking talking point in favor of my socialized medicine. Uh, um... I mean, health care reform. I'm sure many who voted for me will see, with crystalline acuity, his message "Guaranteed medical insurance good for my state, but not good for the rest of you." It's guys like this that will keep me in office for eight to ten years. Roughly. Math ain't my thang, baby.

17 It's his Achilles heel and everyone knows it.  Well, except Mitt.

Funny how Obama has been comparing Obamacare to Romneycare and Newsweek doing this interview.

Must be a coincidence.

18
o/t:  SEC vs. Golman and Obama's poltical operation

President Obama is bringing his war on Wall Street to the enemy's turf. He'll make his pitch for financial reform in the heart of lower Manhattan Thursday — even as his team make hay of the Goldman Sachs fiasco with a tech savvy appeal to Democratic donors.

Internet surfers who entered "Goldman Sachs SEC" into Google were directed to the president's campaign Web site via a sponsored link titled "Help Change Wall Street." The White House's political arm paid for the keywords — but would not say how much. The tactic provided the latest evidence of how Obama and the Democratic National Committee are using the Securities and Exchange Commission's bombshell fraud suit against the financial giant to push financial-reform legislation through Congress.

19 SLIGHTLY WHITER OBAMA IN 2012

BUT IT'S TOTALLY NOT ABOUT "WHITER"

Cunning plan!

20
Goldman

21 Leave Mitt alone!!! (sniff)

22 (Mitt Romney) We solved it in a way that worked in our state on a bipartisan basis.
-----------
This is his problem right here. He refuses to see that it's been a disaster.

23

Not because he isn't a nice guy, but because he's the next George Bush.

In other words, because gosh darn it he IS too nice a guy, as were both Bushes. We need someone "mean-spirited" who will bash the Left without mercy. (And yes, the Left will smear him or her as mean-spirited. Well, revel in it I say. We are "mean spirited" Republicans because we can face Teh Hard Truth, which they, the naive chumps, cannot.)

24 SLIGHTLY WHITER OBAMA IN 2012 BUT IT'S TOTALLY NOT ABOUT "WHITER" Cunning plan! Boy, I wish I'd have thought of that. I could have saved all that vitriol for a rainier day.

25 The "federalism as method for allowing states to be many labs for many ideas" arg only works for Romney if he's willing to admit that Romneycare is a failure for the same reason that Obamacare will be a failure: that costs will skyrocket, that people the mandates won't cover them, that it removes choice and freedom, etc...

Now, he is correct that, as a question of legitimate government action, it's far more valid (and Constitutional) for the states to do something like Romneycare than it is for the USFG to do something, but that doesn't answer the question of whether or not it's good or bad at all. If Obamacare is bad for reasons unrelated to the encroachment of the USFG on the right of citizens and states to have control over their own health care decisions, then Romneycare is bad for the exact same reasons.

So, really, Romney falling back on the federalism claim to distinguish his shit sandwich from the one that just got foisted on the rest of us is really just a smoke screen to attempt to divert attention from the fact that Hoover Jr fucked up big time on his signature issue.

26 Posted by: Lemon Kitten at April 20, 2010 12:06 PM (0fzsA)

Rush is addressing this now, first thing, on his program.

27

Romney is the medias choice for the Republican nomonation right now. I am not going to fall for that crap again. If he wins the primary, I stay home in November. Outcome be damned.

28 Okay, here's a pet peeve of mine.  Sometimes experiments fail.  I know some scientists and I'm assured that you learn as much, if not more, from a failure than you do from a success.  So let's think this through.  The states are entitled to experiment.  Some of those experiments will succeed.  Others will fail.  There is nothing improper about reviewing the results of an experiment to see what happened.  There is nothing improper about evaluating a candidate based on the experiments he supported and, more importantly to me, how he responded to the result of that experiment.

29 Well I'm not a Romney fanboy but that Newsweak article was just awful.  It was the smug condescending leftist Newsweak editors trying to needle him and try to get him to admit "see, see, those Republicans were just obstructionist jerks!!!!!!"  "see, see, when they scream socialism, they are being idiots!!!!!!!!"

30

People are going to make value judgments on RomneyÂ’s record on health care.

Yeah, and it sux.

Unfortunately for him, at the moment it seems people favor those who value repeal and who never bought into this type of scheme in the first place.

Preach on it, brother.

31 Why are mandates bad at the national level, but acceptable at the state level?  If mandates remove my rights, who gives a flying handshake where it is done?  The fact is, no govt at any level should be able to impose a mandate for insurance.

As far as the emergency room care cost goes, the fact is that most people that do not have insurance do so because of their own choice.  They chose to save the money, or they chose to not work, or they chose to remain uneducated and unemployable, or they chose to...be bums.  Why should my money go to pay for their choices?  Or your money, but I care a lot less about your money.

The fact is: Since the depression, every expansion of govt largess has been justified because of the poor children, or the poor people who can't, or some other cover for someone's bad choices.  Not 100%, I know, but it does not justify the govt taking control.

32 How's that hopey-changey thing workin' out for ya, Mitt?

33

Rush is addressing this now, first thing, on his program.

Good.  Lord knows the MSM won't be reporting the fraud.

34

I like Romney and I'm a former enthusiastic media supporter, but repealing Obamacare is too big an issue, and Romney's Mass. health plan is just too similar.

Romney should put his presidential plans on hold until Obamacare is gone.  He's not going to win the primaries and if he does it will be a mess (as witness the double-dyed mental cripples in this thread and elsewhere who are vowing not to vote for Romney in the generals if he makes it that far, which, God willing, he won't).

35 Uh, media supporter Romney supporter.  That's what I get for skimming other comments while I'm typing.

36 It really doesn't matter doesn't matter whether it's the states or the feds when the feds have to keep bailing the states out. MassCare is a failure, and it will be and should be a referendum on Romney's performance as Governor. This may be a mixed blessing for conservatives, because Romney as a candidate means we can get around to talking about healthcare early in the primaries, get the base and independents angry and fired up about Obamacare, make it clear that it's not about Obama or Romney but their policies, and then run them both out of politics. Romney can go back to telling businesses who to can and how to make money exploiting people in third world countries and Obama can go on the lecture circuit with his teleprompter.

37 @30 These people in the White House are deadly serious about acquiring and keeping power. Mitt is deadly unserious about what Masscare does to his credibility. At least there is one sort of competence on display here, from the White House and their gaming of the search engines. Mitt, he has nice hair.

38 "31

Romney is the medias choice for the Republican nomonation right now. I am not going to fall for that crap again. If he wins the primary, I stay home in November. Outcome be damned.

Posted by: Andrew at April 20, 2010 12:11 PM (PUb/T)"

I agree with you...but when I say that, they all yell at me...

Remember Bo won a lot of his elections by challenging his opponents in court and essentially getting rid of them that way...

Look if Romney is the "hillary clinton" of 2012, that's one thing...that he knows as hillary did that the hype about him being the next president no matter what...was just that hype and then BO came in and shocked everyone, but hillary and bill who must have gone along with this so she could be secy of state and he could be a supreme court justice....So, if Romny is the foil and then someone will come in and swoop it all up and win, fine....otherwise...a lot of people will stay home

39 Sorry Drew, but Mitt is broken merchandise. He needs to step aside and accept a cabinet post or something.

40

Off topic, but Tim Burns is only 1/2 way to his $50k goal on his money bomb- this is for Murtha's old seat:

It's timburnsforcongress dot com . I'm too lazy to do the tiny URL thing.

41

Fuck that and fuck you and fuck your secret underwear, Mitt.

Yeah?  Fuck you too, you bigoted mental cripple.  You got a problem with Romney, fine, but you can leave my religion alone.  Maybe you should stop microwaving your brain while you still have a few cells left.  Put your head in the oven instead.

42 I don't believe for a second that Mitt has any desire to repeal Zerocare. So for me, he is a write off.

43 Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at April 20, 2010 12:14 PM (epBek) I am lactose intolerant. I do hope there won't be any unpleasantness between us...

44

18

Problem is that this next couple of election cycles will determine whether a third party comes into existance or not... and if the Repubs run what many of us see as a Dem Light???

He led the Government takeover of Healthcare in his State... He FORCED everyone to buy health insurance... Progresiveness on a smaller scale, but still more Government control.  Why with that track record should we now trust him with the reigns of the Fed Government?

 

45 Mitt would be an excellent GOP chairman.

46

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 20, 2010 11:58 AM (xGIqT)

I was giving you 11ty's until I got to  I would rather elect Mavericky John "Maverick" McMavericain than your sorry, Magic Shell helmeted ass.

I can't go that far.  The Magic Shell part is ok, though.

47

Romney is the medias choice for the Republican nomonation right now. I am not going to fall for that crap again. If he wins the primary, I stay home in November. Outcome be damned.

Well, then get behind a better primary candidate as soon as one emerges as possible. Hanging back and bitching will only get you McCain II.

--Anyone who wants it, get in now (Yes, Fred! that meant you, shit or get off the pot)

--Anyone with too many skeletons in the closet, drop out now (Yes, Rudy, that meant you)

 

48 So, you're saying that Romney is the East Anglia of HCR?

Hmmm.  That's not a bad analogy what with the refusal to admit any wrong.

49

One other thing:

it was already apparent from the whole flip-flopping stuff, but the way Romney is handling this healthcare problem makes it even more apparent.  Like John Kerry, he has terrible political instincts.

The GOP doesn't need someone with Bill Clinton -level skills, but we need someone who isn't out there embarrassing himself.  Romney isn't that guy.

50 This seems especially germane to our condition, since 2008: We have a new type of rule now. Not one-man rule, or rule of aristocracy or plutocracy, but of small groups elevated to positions of absolute power by random pressures and subject to political and economic factors that leave little room for decision. They are representatives of abstract forces who have reached power through surrender of self. The iron-willed dictator is a thing of past. There will be no more Stalins, no more Hitlers. The rulers of this most insecure of all worlds are rulers by accident. Inept, frightened pilots at the controls of a vast machine they cannot understand, calling in experts to tell them which buttons to push. William S. Burroughs

51 "Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at April 20, 2010 12:14 PM (epBek)"

I'm not a "mental criple"...I'm just fed up with the entire situation....I'm not going to be forced into voting for the republican version of BO

52 The federalism petard doesn't work for me either.

Government regulations, at both the state and the federal level are the problem.The plan needs to be getting government out of health care not getting a particular branch more involved than the other.

53 He's a squish, if we run this invertebrate following the McCain Campfail than we deserve another 4 years of Obama.

54 It was the smug condescending leftist Newsweak editors trying to needle him and try to get him to admit "see, see, those Republicans were just obstructionist jerks!!!!!!"  "see, see, when they scream socialism, they are being idiots!!!!!!!!"

And y'all thought McCain was bad. Every year the Democrats find themselves a useful idiot right before an election, and the media tells us to nominate that candidate. Worse, the GOP usually obliges, because it's sportsmanlike they're idiots it's so-and-so's turn.

55

I do hope there won't be any unpleasantness between us...

 

Then stfu.

56 Sorry Mitt. You lose.  Next.

57 Sorry Drew, but Mitt is broken merchandise.
Posted by: joncelli at April 20, 2010 12:17 PM (RD7QR)

Why are you apologizing to me? Yesterday I wrote....

"This is why Romney can not and must not be the Republican nominee in 2012."

I can't support the guy (unless he's the nominee) but he's still a major figure in the party and deserves to have people consider his version of the story. I'm clearly not buying it but others will reach their own conclusions.

58 @46 Sigh... I see it's too late. Grow up and wash the sand out of your vagina. Everybody gets roasted at some point. Everybody. And the word you're looking for is probably "prejudiced", not bigoted.

59 There will be no more Stalins, no more Hitlers.


Oh, yeah, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIG GUY!

60 Every uber conservarive, whatever that actually means isn't main II. And Reasons dead and wasn't demonstrably more conservative than Reagan anyway.

61 Obama will rip Romney to shreds over healthcare. He will say Romneys own plan had a mandate. He will say Romney is now flip flopping (how did that work for john kerry?) It will be a disaster.

62

I'm more than a little worried about the prospect of explaining dual federalism to voters.  It's not a soundbite-sized issue.

 

That being said, I'm all for trying.

63 Do not be suprised if a third party emerges if Romney is the nominee. GOP is playing with fire.

64 Romneycare as explained by LEGOs:

http://tiny.cc/yf5cw

65 No way. I've spent over a year railing against Obamacare when it was a bill and now that it's law I'm still opposed to it. So I will NOT turn around and try to defend Romneycare while at the same time oppose Obamacare when the two are damn near the same thing. I watched Marco Rubio try to do that dance the other day during an interview. I'm not going to spend 2012 explaining how different Romneycare is from Obamacare, when the goal should be to explain how terrible Obamacare is and why it should be repealed: Starting with the man who helped enact it---Obama. Romney isn't getting my vote. It's going to someone else, assuming she runs, because re: the whole healthcare debate she stated it best: Death Panels. Which is what this damn thing is going to to our economy and individual freedom.

66

Fuck that and fuck you and fuck your secret underwear, Mitt.

And fuck his creepy salt-and-pepper helmet hair. I bet you $10 Mitt approved of his supporters calling the Palins trash on blogs, because Bristol had a baby out of wedlock. Fuck his magic underwear.

67 64 There will be no more Stalins, no more Hitlers.


Oh, yeah, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIG GUY!

Posted by: Trolls Know Jack Shit About Fascism at April 20, 2010 12:24 PM (mHQ7T)

 

And Happy Yom Ha'atzmaut Israel! (Founding day!)

68

Romney is the medias choice for the Republican nomonation right now.

Add my name to those who are sick of it.

69 Romney begins to take on the aura of Zero lite.

70 Our world is largely ruled by soundbites. How hard is it to imagine Barry saying "So Governor Romney's idea is a hodgepodge of 50 states can administer guaranteed medical coverage better than one agency? And this guy wants to be President?" That's so easy even a caveman can do it.

71 Actually Obama will have a harder time with romney because Obama won't be able to claim romney is indifferent health insurance issues

72 Why is it that we can't get Mitt Romney out of the conversation, but Tom Tancredo, who has actual conservative accomplishments to point to isn't even on the radar screen? I'm not a third-party guy, but there is something seriously broken with the way the Republican party winnows out its candidates.

73 I watched Marco Rubio try to do that dance the other day during an interview.

Look at this fiasco. Was it worth the $5000 from Mitt's PAC? Just when things were going so well for Rubio. Why couldn't Mitt give him the same courtesy he showed Scott Brown by hiding out till the whole thing was over.

74

What an absolute fool Romney is.  "Healthcare should happen at the state level..."

Really? 

How well has that worked out with other social programs, like funding special-needs education?  One of the things that people don't talk about is how states that offer good social programs become magnets for the people who WANT those programs... regardless of ability to pay.

Massachusetts and NJ have both seen the number of special needs students skyrocket, devouring more and more resources.  Massachusetts is facing an insurmoutable 2011 budget because of this and other "progressive" programs, like RomneyCare.

He sold his soul to be Governor and took the RINO-route.  He doesn't get it back to run for president.

 

75 Hey! Vote for me 'cause I'm only HALF as bad as Obama!

76 I retract my insensitive comment about Mitt's undergarments. It was (I thought) a fairly innocuous throwaway line and I do not mean to offend those of the Mormon faith. However, if Mitt is riding his bicycle around my neighborhood, I'm going to give him an earful. I'm just sayin'.

77 How hard is it to imagine Barry saying "So Governor Romney's idea is a hodgepodge of 50 states can administer guaranteed medical coverage better than one agency? And this guy wants to be President?"

Crikey.  I can hear that ad now.  The horrifying thing is it would be effective.

I really need to buy an island and start Alextopia.

78

I don't understand Romneys reluctance to say RomneyCare was a failure.  He comes from an industry that makes a huge percentage of bad calls.  On Wall Street if you bat .600 you are a god mainly from learning how you screwed up the other 40% of the time.

Admit it was a failure and sell yourself as the guy who has real EXPERIENCE with socializing healthcare and why it won't work.

79 I can now confidently predict that Romney will be the GOP presidential candidate in 2012.

80 Actually Obama will have a harder time with romney because Obama won't be able to claim romney is indifferent health insurance issues

The problem is cost and neither addresses that. Mitt Romney will have a hard time explaining away his failure in MA. No one cares that he meant well.

81 In maddoggtopia, leftists get fed to the pet crocodiles.

82 If Slick Mitt is the nominee, I'll put my time and energy into building a secessionist movement (sedition alert! sedition alert! Citizen's arrayest! Citizen's arrayest!).

83 RomneyCare is only one reason I don't much care for Mitt.  Take that out of the picture entirely and we still have a moderate squish who flips on major issues and seems to be too prepackaged.

I tried to like him but he feels very fake to me.

84 Damn sock.

85

Until we saw Bill Clinton on the news last night, we had almost forgotten what a piece of shit he is.

That disingenuous piece of shit was saying, in effect, that he was (supposedly) worried that the Tea Party people were going to incite some nut like Timothy McVeigh to commit violence. 

Bad example. It was while that piece of shit was president that Timothy McVeigh blew up that building in Oklahoma in response to the moronic way that his own fool, Janet Reno, handled that unpleasant situation in Waco.

That fuck-up, Janet Reno, under Clinton's authority, was the one who incited violence. Clinton is such a cowardly piece of shit that he is refusing to accept resposibility for the comsequences of his own incomptence. Projecting his own extremely irresponsible behavior onto the Tea Party people. What a slimy low-life. I always said that he didn't have any balls. He is as wussy as Obama is.

What was irritating, too, was that Glenn Beck said that Clinton was being "used" by the Obama Administration. "Used", my ass. That piece of shit is one of them.

86

84 I can now confidently predict that Romney will be the GOP presidential candidate in 2012.

 

Once he starts talking up amnesty, I'll agree with you.

87 Admit it was a failure and sell yourself as the guy who has real EXPERIENCE with socializing healthcare and why it won't work.

"Vote for me. I'm an experienced fuck up." That won't work.

88

Ace, time to shown them your writing skills:

Forbes invites media bloggers to write for free. Why do it? To be seen by "millions of Forbes readers." http://is.gd/bAQja

89 87

I stand with you, my friend.

90 90

Yeah, there are a couple of threads up on that today.

91 I've had it with politicians and altruism. Every insult delivered to the nation for the last 150 years has come wearing the clothing of do gooders. It never works. It always backfires. It always either costs more than they say it will, doesn't deliver half of what they say it will, fills the jails with people that shouldn't ought to be there, or gives more intrusive power to people that shouldn't ought to have it.

92
Who cares about 2012, right now? 2010 is our last stand. If we don't gain control in at least one chamber, we're done.

After Amnesty passes, does it even matter who is nominated in 2012? No, it doesn't. Obama wins and the GOP is finished.

93 92 "Vote for me. I'm an experienced fuck up." That won't work.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 12:38 PM (mHQ7T)

 

Yeah... the experienced ones get APPOINTED... like... Timmy Geitner?

94 92 Admit it was a failure and sell yourself as the guy who has real EXPERIENCE with socializing healthcare and why it won't work. "Vote for me. I'm an experienced fuck up." That won't work. Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 12:38 PM (mHQ7T) Well, hell, there you go. Fuck, I already see the oppo ads coming from Team Barry but the oppo ads from other primary opponents are writing themselves too.

95

11 Mitt would ultimately make a decent POTUS, being right on most issues, but is a terrible candidate.  This health care business will sink him for sure.

But that's not the worst of it.  His ties to Obamacare will sink US, not just him.  Obamacare will not be repealed with Mitt in a leadership role in the GOP, be it as nominee, party chairman, caterer, whatever.  Its as simple as that.

If you support repeal, you don't want Mitt out front.  Urge him to move on with his life.  Find another Domino's to take over and fix.

96 I can now confidently predict that Romney will be the GOP presidential candidate in 2012. Thank you for making my stomach turn.

97 Actually Obama will have a harder time with romney because Obama won't be able to claim romney is indifferent health insurance issues

Posted by: parisparamus at April 20, 2010 12:30 PM (0/VqW)

Problem is, it also makes it impossible for Mitt to attack Obama over health care.

I don't want health care off the table for two reasons...

-If we are going to repeal (and that is based on winning in 2012), we need it to be an issue to get a mandate

-It's a winning issue (at least as the way things stand now). Why would we want to give up such a major issue?

Mitt is simply a liability on what is shaping up as the top issue of the next two cycles.

98 I agree with his point, actually, and if Obamacare had not passed, he might be able to take a stand on it, but now that Obamacare has passed, he has to address the problem that he made a mistake.

Federalism is supposed to produce 50 little laboratories which means that sometimes the experiments fail.  Romney has to check his ego at the door and say "It didn't work, we made every effort, tried to anticipate every problem, passed it in a bipartisan way through a non-corrupt process and it didn't work."

The bottom line is that Romney has to admit he was wrong and I don't think he's able to do that either constitutionally or because he thinks it's bad strategy.

Reagan admitted he was wrong on an abortion law he signed.  It can be overcome (quite easily, actually) but you have to be able to admit it.

99 keep digging Mitt, you'll be in China before you know it.

100

77

Tom Tancredo is a nut. He is always trash-talking fellow Republicans in a not cool way. He likened Miami to a Third World country, for example. (Jeb Bush took offense.)

Could you imagine someone like Tancredo running for President, campaigning in a swing state without the support of local party figures and having to explain why he complained there were too many Hispanics in Miami or what he meant by his comments?

101   16 I think we'll see a lot of left wing crossover votes for Romney in the open primary states. If that happens, I also think we'll see a lot of the Obama agenda remaining intact, and worse of all, the momentum built up by the Tea Party and the popular upset over Obama's control getting washed out. This is why Romney must be stopped.   zackly; well stated    

102 Yeah...I have been missing George Orwell.. Mitt is going to go down in flames ...again. I think Guialani, Brown, CHRISTIE, Ryan...no chicks so far... Rubio said he is for forced healthcare yesterday... What's up with that...whats up with that???(sing along)

103

Hmmmm... anyone know if Romneycare was ever challenged in the Courts?  It does have a "mandate" to force you to buy a product...

I know the idea of Federalism gives some powers to States that are restricted from the Feds... but it does NOT give up the Peoples Rights...

Just because it was a bipartisan State taking of the Peoples Right... does not make it Constitutional at either the Federal, or State level...

104

'South Park' creators facing possible death threats after (almost) depicting Muhammad on show http://fxn.ws/92iGA7

A radical Islamic website is warning the creators of "South Park" that they could face violent retribution for depicting the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit during an episode broadcast on Comedy Central last week.

"We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show," the posting reads. "This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them."

105 Nobody whose name is being mentioned as a real possability thrills me.  They could all lose to Obama.

106 Problem is, it also makes it impossible for Mitt to attack Obama over health care.

Exactly.  As it made it impossibly difficult for McCain to attack Obama on the latter's inexperience the moment he picked Palin.  (I think ultimately McCain would have lost even more badly had he NOT picked her, but it demonstrates how powerful avenues of attack can be neutralized.)

107 After Amnesty passes, does it even matter who is nominated in 2012? No, it doesn't. Obama wins and the GOP is finished.

Posted by: The Great Gazoo at April 20, 2010 12:41 PM (XaQVn)

Actually, Lady Linseed is on deck to intro crap and tax next week, and this morning Beck said they got a call from a Refounder that something major's going to hit the news this Thursday.  So, I think we'll be sunk well before amnesty.  Heck, we're already broke, no one will admit it.

108 Agreed hate the tom tancredo.... he has the same smell as JD Hayworth..old sour, grandma smelling lack of vitality...spoiled. how'd I do?

109 Well, hell, there you go. Fuck, I already see the oppo ads coming from Team Barry but the oppo ads from other primary opponents are writing themselves too.

It would be the weirdest campaign on earth.

Romney camp "Yeah I did it but it was a bad idea"
Obama camp "Yeah he did it, it was so good I stole it, but now he thinks it's a bad idea"
Voters "???????"

110 I'm glad that Romney is down with federalism, but as a practical matter, neither the federal nor the state government should be meddling with how we access health care and/or how we choose to pay for it.

It's doesn't matter who's in charge of the decision making. State or federal, either way it increases costs, limits freedom and access, and reduces quality of care.

In other words:  It's bad policy.

Until I hear Romney admits this and vigorously oppose not only federal control of health care, but governmental intervention in all cases, then I will work to oppose his nomination.

We can't win this debate (and therefore, the presidency) without standing firm on repeal. Romney is the wrong guy at this time.  We need a purist on this one. Americans are firmly against Obamacare. They need a rallying point. Someone they trust. Someone who energizes them.

111 It never works. It always backfires. It always either costs more than they say it will, doesn't deliver half of what they say it will, fills the jails with people that shouldn't ought to be there, or gives more intrusive power to people that shouldn't ought to have it.

Nail. Hammer. Head. You're always doing that, rawmuse!

112 What could hit Thursday, Obie is supposed to start another "campaign" for finance reform on Thursday...he is flying somewhere in the USA and giving a "speech".

113 Totally off topic, but who gives a hoot about what Romney has to say about healthcare when you can enjoy some hobo humor.

114 Mitt will win the nomination

115

Hmmmm... anyone know if Romneycare was ever challenged in the Courts?  It does have a "mandate" to force you to buy a product...

I know the idea of Federalism gives some powers to States that are restricted from the Feds... but it does NOT give up the Peoples Rights...

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 20, 2010 12:48 PM (OlHjR)

I don't see any federal Constitutional problems with RomneyCare.  The states are given very wide latitude in what they can impose on their citizens - as any citizen who doens't like it can just move to another state.  The only place where the real limits of the state government would be found would be in the state Constitution.

Romney is 1 for 2 on his argument.  He is perfectly correct on the federalist issue, but the actual policy he implemented in RomneyCare is just awful and stupid and with not a hair of conservativism about it.  It is a full-on liberal policy.

But, being on the state level, that is allowed.  States are allowed to become socialist hellholes.  The key, of course, is that the federal government is not allowed to bail out states that have run themselves into the ground with their socialist idiocy - which is where the real problem comes in.  States must be able to support themselves and the federal government is not allowed to subsidize state idiocy.

116 One suggested test for presidential aspirants:

In he honest?  Has he changed his mind on very basic principles depending on what's popular?

Did he increase the size and scope of government, expand entitlements, destroy the financial future, of any government he is executive over?

By what margin was he popular when reelected or elected to a higher office?  Did he avoid running because he was a failure?

Is he a corrupt crony style leader?

==========

Mitt Romney isn't even good at anything.  He's a big government failure.  He's a liar, too.  Why not just support Jesus's brother the devil?  Joke.

But Huckabee fails this test to some extent and Mitt to some extent. 

I'm not ruling out moderates altogether because it failed in 2008, but if you want to run one of these assholes, they need to be truly excellent... not truly terrible.

117 Not feeling Giuliani or Brown. Ryan is good. I worry we'll need him in the House while we're defeating healthcare, unless everyone thinks he can do two things at once. He's a pretty smart guy, so if he runs, I'm game. Christie I like even better. He's kicking ass in NJ so far.

118

#108  There's a wiki on Romney-care FWIW. Look under "Legal Challenges". Here's the result of that challenge.

Judge Kathe M. Tuttman dismissed the case upon a Motion filed by Assistant Attorney General Amy Spector. A petition for a Writ of Mandamus, Docket No SJ-2009-0098, to the Massachusetts Supreme Court, ordering Essex Superior Court to vacate this dismissal on procedural grounds, the failure to provide trail by jury in a dispute over property as requested by the plaintiff, was denied. An Appeal was then filed with the Massachusetts Appeal Court and was given Docket No. 2009-P-0526. A later petition for a Writ of Mandamus, Docket No. SJ-2009-0146, with the Massachusetts Supreme Court, ordering the Appeals Court to vacate the dismissal on procedural grounds, as above, and to return the case to Essex Superior Court for trial by jury, was also denied.

/I just know the challenge didn't go anywhere, can't tell you any more than that (not a legal beagle).

119 What mass has id little more than an additional income. tax you can opt out ofby getting insurance. It my be wrong but its not fundamentally new.

120 Obie is supposed to start another "campaign" for finance reform on Thursday... he is flying somewhere in the USA and giving a "speech."

Is this that Chris Dodd bill that allows for unlimited bailouts?

121 One suggested test for presidential aspirants:

In he honest?

So no one is going to run?  Awesome!

122

Romney will at some point have to either repudiate RomneyCare entirely, or explain why he's not repudiating it. "I meant well" is not a good reason. I don't accept it from Democrats, and I sure as shit ain't gonna accept it from a GOP presidential hopeful.

He's also wrongly conflating federalism with his RomneyCare debacle. What he seems to be saying is that states are where the "experiments in Democracy" take place, but he also needs to explain how the negative experiments are just as valuable as the positive ones. In other words, "Look at how bad I fucked up in Massachusetts, folks! RomenyCare is a disaster! Don't be like us!" Blame the Democrats, sure -- but cowboy up and admit that you just got it wrong, conceptually, right from the get-go.

Give me Tim Pawlenty over Haircut Romney any old day.

 

123

#109  A radical Islamic website is warning the creators of "South Park" that they could face violent retribution for depicting the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit during an episode broadcast on Comedy Central last week.

Religion of Peace strikes again! 

btw, why are they bitching now? South Park already depicted Muhammad in  "Super Best Friends" (Season 5, 6?) as the guy that uses fire as his magical power.

124 But, but Mitt is soooooo dreamy...

125 Right, parisparamus, it's a mandate. We get that.

126 115We can't win this debate (and therefore, the presidency) without standing firm on repeal. Romney is the wrong guy at this time.  We need a purist on this one. Americans are firmly against Obamacare. They need a rallying point. Someone they trust. Someone who energizes them.

so right I had to copy it and post it again.

127 #130

South Park rattled their cage by putting Mohammad in a teddy bear costume. Other stuff, too, probably, they're pretty sensitive.

128

Romney is done, stick a fork in him.  He will be running with the shadow of RomneyCare following him around, kinda like that TV ad for heart-attack prevention where a gurney follows the hapless victim around on his daily chores.

The fact that Newsweak, the newly reconstituted far left Newsweak, is doing a softball interview with Romney shows that the left is once again trying to pick the Republican nominee who will run against The Won.

129 Chineese contortionist is less twisted than Governor's position on healthcare mandates. 

130

And Happy Yom Ha'atzmaut Israel! (Founding day!)

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 20, 2010 12:28 PM (OlHjR)

Is it really? HAHAHA! I love Jews.

131 Hell, if the writers of Southpark really had balls they would feature Big Mo chasing little girls and banging goats. They've done worse on that show.

132 Way, way, way OT

http://tiny.cc/q7zs5

133 I think this is absolutely the right response from Romney.  The issues a governor has purview over are different from those that a federal executive does.  Making this a 10th amendment issue is the way to win this argument and others... how about abortion?  Abortion policy should be left to the states, therefore as president I will try to get Roe v. Wade overturned, not because of any personal objection to abortion but because of the Constitutional issue.  This is how you create a "big tent" on the issue... "we may have different views on abortion/healthcare but we all agree these views should be reconciled in the individual states and as President I will make sure the process allows for that."  Slam dunk, winning argument.

Change the playing field from the Dem tilted one "are you for the individual mandate/coverage for pre-existing conditions or not?"  "do you think a woman who has an abortion should go to jail?" to a Conservative one which means these issues are not about policy but about the Constitution.  "Before we get into pre-existing conditions can you tell me where in the Constitution the Federal government is provided with a role?"

134 Of course, part of the real problem with health care is that the federal courts have stuck their noses in state business and forced states to take offer care to people who don't deserve it.  The federal courts are a huge part of the problem.  They tend to impose as many unfunded mandates (by definition, as everything the federal courts declare is unfunded) as the idiots in Congress and the White House.

What is really needed is a good amount of state nullification of federal courts overreaching - vastly overreaching.

As to Romney, he's certainly done.  I like him.  He's a smart guy.  But, if he can't admit that RomneyCare (while legitimate for a state to implement) is a liberal idea that is as stupid as one could imagine, then he is less than worthless.  If Romney had any integrity, he would pull himself out of any consideration for the Presidency, as McShame should have done after his Shamnesty destroyed the GOP and it was made clear that he was absolutely despised by the base and anyone with an ounce of sense.

135 Does anyone know whether "Anal Leakage" from eating chips with Oelestra is covered ???

136 136 Chineese contortionist is less twisted than Governor's position on healthcare mandates. Posted by: Confucius at April 20, 2010 01:05 PM (jGwn5) Holy shit, that's funny, and I'm going to steal it. Credit will be due, Mr. Confucius. I recall you have some other good nuggets of wisdom for us maroons. My favorite is: Man who go to bed with itchy butt wakes up with stinky finger. Or maybe that was someone else.

137

Tom Tancredo is a nut. He is always trash-talking fellow Republicans in a not cool way. He likened Miami to a Third World country, for example. (Jeb Bush took offense.)

Could you imagine someone like Tancredo running for President, campaigning in a swing state without the support of local party figures and having to explain why he complained there were too many Hispanics in Miami or what he meant by his comments?

That's a fair enough criticism, but was he wrong?  He bashed the Bush administration over immigration and the Medicare prescription drug giveaway - and rightly so.  He's done what he can to pull the party to the right, which is more that you can say for George W. Bush, John McCain or Romney.

I don't know much about Miami, but was he wrong?  I live in New Orleans, and it IS like a third-world country.  Someone is always going to take offense, but the people that live here and agree with me want it to change more than they want to act all butthurt about someone pooh-poohing their city.  They want quality of life.

I'm not a "Tom Tancredo" guy, btw.  I'm just sick of the current roster.

138

Vice President Romney...Secretary of Commerce Romney....Sectetary of the Treasury Roney.

All of these titles suit him well.  But his history with RomneyCare and the mandate rules him out for me. 

 

139

120

Except that even State Governments cannot take away rights granted under the Federal Constitution (that whole supremacy thing).

I also see the Right to property enshrined in the Mass Constitution... in article 1...

but it looks like it never really had its day in Court... too bad...

140

#134 South Park rattled their cage by putting Mohammad in a teddy bear costume. Other stuff, too, probably, they're pretty sensitive.

I'm surprised Comedy Central let them air the episode (haven't seen it - now I have to). Remember the "Cartoon Wars" 2-part-er, where Comedy Central edited out that 5 second scene showing Mohammed wearing a fish-helmet?

141 Frankly, RomneyCare is not a distraction we need in the next Presidential debate against Obama. It will be a distraction from the material issues we have with ObamaCare and obfuscate very rudimentary arguments opposed to these types of social programs. The public record is there for Obama and Co. to exploit as a pillar of their modus operandi:deceptive diversion. It will be the steamroller which paves over every other issue this nation has with the current administration- and there are many.

What really roils me is Romney's articulation. Undeniably, it is a Federalism issue. But it is also an issue of individual "rights", and at the state or federal level that argument does not change. If this is a precursor to how he plans to run a campaign as our nominee, get ready for a two term Obama. It's a McCain redux, with hair.Say nay to the mane!

The fact is that irrespective of his initial intentions or how RomneyCare was changed by regulation/legislature in Mass., it was ill-conceived and did not consider many of the alternative proposals that Republican's offered as an option (or are currently floating) to ObamaCare. That puts him out of synch with the GOP, tea parties and just about everyone else that want this monstrosity repealed.

Romney seems to believe his involvement in health care is a positive when, quite the contrary, it is an albatross that will pull him down.  

142 Hello, Newsweek, my name is Mitt and I'm a lobbyist for the insurance cartel.

143

Man who go to bed with itchy butt wakes up with stinky finger.

Man with hand in pants feel cocky.

 

144

Tom Tancredo is a nut. He is always trash-talking fellow Republicans in a not cool way. He likened Miami to a Third World country, for example. (Jeb Bush took offense.)

clearly he has been to miami...

 

it's kind of like when John Rocker described the people on the "A" Train in New York. Everyone got real pissed at him because he broke the codified PC Laws, however his description was entirely accurate.

I am not a Tancredo guy either, but i do agree with him on his one issue, immigration, everything else ..meh.

145 137

And Happy Yom Ha'atzmaut Israel! (Founding day!)

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 20, 2010 12:28 PM (OlHjR)

Is it really? HAHAHA! I love Jews.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 01:08 PM (mHQ7T)

 

Yep... sometimes I think the Universe has a sense of Humor... their "4th of July" changes year to year due to the Jewish calendar... this year it is today...

146 There is no need to come up with words to describe what's wrong with Romney in particular and the GOP in general. Teh Gipper hit it out of the park in 1975. We need to paint with bold colors, not pale pastels. Also:

"A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

I do not believe I have proposed anything that is contrary to what has been considered Republican principle. It is at the same time the very basis of conservatism. It is time to reassert that principle and raise it to full view. And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way."

147

Tom Tancredo is a nut. He is always trash-talking fellow Republicans in a not cool way. He likened Miami to a Third World country, for example. (Jeb Bush took offense.)

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 20, 2010 01:15 PM (xGIqT)

I'm a Tancredo supporter.  He was one of the only people with enough guts to fight the worms in Washington and tell it like it is.  For that, he was called a nut.  Tancredo was correct on most of the issues he addressed, and he was an important voice for a long time.

148 Poor Mitt.  He should've thought of that.  Where was he born, anyway?

149

I'm a Tancredo supporter. 

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 20, 2010 01:19 PM (N49h9)

Huh.  A Birther is a Tanc supporter.  Who'da thunk it?

150 "I like Romney but I just wish he wasn't running. He is a liability to the party right now."

You're right. Romney is hurting the Republican Party.

Mitt Romney is a likable person, but frankly he thinks there is a large role for government in the lives of Americans. He believes he can make a large government run like clockwork owing to his Mike Dukakis-like managerial skills that he honed, ironically , in Mike's home state.

I can't wait to see how Mitt Romney looks driving around in a tank.

Is that what you want?

Efficient mandates? Efficient insurance exchanges? 50 of them ... one for each state, like Mitt wants? Forced burial insurance (that's next)? Forced flood insurance (it's going to rain, I'm pretty sure.) Hurricane insurance to efficiently spread out the costs so the total costs are not borne on a high-Electoral-College-delegate state like Florida?

Romney wants big huge government trains. I'm sure he's got a company he's invested in that will sell them to the government at a fair price.

Not. Interested.

I want my Republican candidate to tell me how he's ending the gravy train and sending me my tax dollars back to me. Or the Republican Party can go the way of the fucking dodo bird and the Tea Partiers will get my donations and my votes.

Mitt Romney is damaging the Republican brand. Shut him down and shut him out or get him back on our team.

He's nothing more than a more efficient, whiter Barack Obama - without the Hussein baggage and foreign pedigree.

That sort of a candidate will only get Barack Obama re-elected.

151

#134 South Park rattled their cage by putting Mohammad in a teddy bear costume. Other stuff, too, probably, they're pretty sensitive.

I'm surprised Comedy Central let them air the episode (haven't seen it - now I have to). Remember the "Cartoon Wars" 2-part-er, where Comedy Central edited out that 5 second scene showing Mohammed wearing a fish-helmet?

well that is the point of the cartoon. First they start talking about Muhamet(i am spelling it the 19th century way). The Randy Marsh draws a picture of Muhamet, its a stick figure. After he shows it Garrison and Jimbo whisper to each other, "oooh is that ok"  and " I guess we'll find out".  They do these each time Muhamet talks or is shown.

I think Stone and Parker wrote this and tried to incrementally see what they could get away with. I will be interested to see how far they can go.

I don't know how the industry works, but I am guessing that Stone and Parker make an episode, then submit to the censors at Comedy Central, then things are pixelated or bleeped out.

It was a pretty funny episode, especially when they mock Tim Burton for not having an original idea since Beetlejuice, and clearly wanting to have sex with Johnny Depp.

152

Romney accomplished the same thing with this interview that Newt accomplished by doing a commercial with Botox against global warming. Political Seppuku.

153

157.

Actually I think Romney would beat Obama.

154

I would be shocked! shocked! if President Romney felt differently about federalism than Governer Romney did.

And all beside the point.  This isn't about federalism.

155

Huh.  A Birther is a Tanc supporter.  Who'da thunk it?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 20, 2010 01:21 PM (1fanL)

Do you get off on parading your mental illness in public?  I'd have that looked at, if I were you.

156 I'm with Monty. Romney actually makes Pawlenty look attractive. That's one hell of an accomplishment.

157

Do you get off on parading your mental illness in public?  I'd have that looked at, if I were you.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 20, 2010 01:24 PM (N49h9)

Are you saying you aren't a Birther, or you aren't a Tanc fan?

158

Romney is being driven by his vanity. His irrelevancy is already a foregone conclusion, not even worthy of discussion.  (Whatever that means.  But it sounded good.) The Republican Party's nominee for 2012 will come out of the midwest.

 

159

 I'm with Monty. Romney actually makes Pawlenty look attractive. That's one hell of an accomplishment.

Do you mean physically or as a candidate?

160

>>>Except that even State Governments cannot take away rights granted under the Federal Constitution (that whole supremacy thing).

True, but the state is the government that is meant to deal directly with individuals, which the federal Constitution never broaches - outside of the few explicit enumerations of such.

>>>I also see the Right to property enshrined in the Mass Constitution... in article 1...

but it looks like it never really had its day in Court... too bad...

Posted by: Romeo13 at April 20, 2010 01:15 PM (OlHjR)

Yes, the state courts are the place to hash this out.  But ... we've all seen how our court systems (federal and state) love to play politics and acknowledge standing or rule depending on how people at tony cocktail parties think it should be.

161

 The Republican Party's nominee for 2012 will come out of the midwest.

Paul Ryan?

162 Yes, I like Federalism.

Yes, States should be test labs of Democracy trying new things on a smaller scale.

Yes, you should be able to vote with your feet and change if your preference for rules has you somewhere else.

But lets not forget the outcome.  It failed, disastrously.

Picture a scientist, standing in the rubble of the building that once held his lab, claiming "My lab assistant must have screwed that one up, it should have worked perfectly; promote me to manager and let me run that test again in your building".  Are you persuaded that he's the best man for the job?  Or do you think he's a delusional nutjob who may have suffered a head injury in the blast if he thinks you're going to give him an opportunity for an even bigger disaster?

Yes, this sort of thing should be restricted to a single state (so we can point and laugh from a safe distance as it fails) but that doesn't mean the guy who set it up needs more power... it's kind of an indicator that maybe he can't responsibly make choices with the power he had when he did this.

163

Are you saying you aren't a Birther, or you aren't a Tanc fan?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 20, 2010 01:26 PM (1fanL)

I'm saying that you have mental problems that you seem to enjoy displaying to the world.

164

I'm saying that you have mental problems that you seem to enjoy displaying to the world.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at April 20, 2010 01:30 PM (N49h9)

That's rich.  A Birther accusing someone else of mental problems.  Project much?

165 I'm with Monty. Romney actually makes Pawlenty look attractive. That's one hell of an accomplishment. Do you mean physically or as a candidate? Ask me!! Ask me!!!

166

I'm saying that you have mental problems that you seem to enjoy displaying to the world I like to touch myself while playing "I Touch Myself" by the Divynils on the stereo.

FTFY.

167 Ok, a few points I think we can all agree on, Romneycare blows.  That I think is pretty well established, it was a failure of epic proportions.  Now, Mitt can spin and spin till he's dizzy and that's not going to go away.  That subtle nuance thing is what we don't want, don't need and can't really use right now.

We don't need to slow this out of control train down just slightly, we need to slam on the damn brakes and then hopefully get it into reverse before it goes off the cliff.  And Romney, like him or not, simply is NOT the man to get that done. 

To start with, we need a candidate who doesn't give one whit about "partisan politics" or "reaching across the aisle" because as anyone with half a brain knows both of those phrases are just code words for "abandoning conservative principles".

We need a candidate with a solid track record on issues that we can all get behind and we can all trust  - which rules out Romney and Romenycare, or McCain and the Mcain-Fiengold/Kennedy/Gang of 13 style screwups, and sadly a lot of the other usual contenders.  Mike Huckabee seems like a nice enough guy, but with any luck he won't run in 2012 either.  He's just not what we need right now.

We don't need squishy, soft, or compromising.  We need a guy much more along the lines of Chris Christie, somebody who's going to tell us straight out that he's not going to do things the way they've been done up to now because that's what put us on this path to self destruction in the first place.  We need somebody who's going to get in there and actually start dealing with some of these problems instead of passing them off to the next administration because at this rate we don't have any time left.  We put on the brakes now and start backing up quick or we crash soon.

So no, we have no more time to waste on Romney's pet theories, or McCain's feel good causes that make them look better to the liberal media than some of their more useful, and truly more conservative counterparts.  We need a no holds barred, non-apologetic get the job done conservative to run for president in 2012.

Only question now is, do we have one?

168 Tom Tancredo is a nut. He is always trash-talking fellow Republicans in a not cool way. He likened Miami to a Third World country, for example. (Jeb Bush took offense.)

Actually, I posted that, Not Empire of Jeff. And I stand by what I wrote.

169 I'm saying that you have mental problems that you seem to enjoy displaying to the world I like to touch myself while playing "I Touch Myself" by the Divynils on the stereo. If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right.

170 We need a no holds barred, non-apologetic get the job done conservative to run for president in 2012. Only question now is, do we have one? RON. PAUL. ***buckles the chinstrap on his tinfoil helmet***

171 Vote for me - it's my turn.

172

"People are going to make value judgments on RomneyÂ’s record on health care. Unfortunately for him, at the moment it seems people favor those who value repeal and who never bought into this type of scheme in the first place."

Try as he might to say different, there is no real difference between RomneyCare and ObamaCare, don't want it on a National level, don't want it on a State level, the fact that a State may constitutionally implement a system like RomneyCare or ObamaCare is irrelevant to it's unsustainablity.

If Romney is forced upon us as the 2012 Repub. nominee, he will lose.

maybe Thune, maybe Ryan (i like Ryan better) with Palin as the return nominee for VP

173 And the word you're looking for is probably "prejudiced", not bigoted.

The word I'm looking for is crawl back into your anti-Mormon hole, you mouth-breathing shitbag.  You give colon cancer a bad name.

174 @ Empire of Jeff

I live in New Orleans, and it IS like a third-world country.

There are probably parts of the Denver-Aurora Metropolitan area that seemed like a Third World country, too, and maybe if Tancredo had focused more on improving his own district instead of taking cheap shots at Miami, he'd still be in office. But he's a crank, and it didn't play well in CO.

175 The word I'm looking for is crawl back into your anti-Mormon hole, you mouth-breathing shitbag.  You give colon cancer a bad name.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at April 20, 2010 01:40 PM (epBek)

Sorry to nitpick, but that's more than one word.

176 cheap shots at Miami

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 01:42 PM (mHQ7T)

Say hello to my leetle frien'!

177

Tom Tancredo is a nut. He is always trash-talking fellow Republicans in a not cool way. He likened Miami to a Third World country, for example. (Jeb Bush took offense.)

Have you ever been to what they used to call Dade County? Tanc is spot on.

He's not the best candidate for immigration control, and he wasn't even in 2008 (that honor would have gone to Duncan Hunter), but he is willing to call a spade a spade and state the hard truth.

Sorry if the immigration romantics, cheap labor greedheads, and those fools who *still* believe in Hispandering, in the face of all electoral evidence, have a problem with that.

178

If more luscious babes per capita than any other city makes Miami a Third World Country than outer Mongolia isn't receiving sufficient recognition. 

179

Ah, and on to another "who should the GOP prez canidate be?" -- quite honestly, I don't have a clue at this point; I would like to get through this fall's elections first.  I'm not a Republican, so I have to take what you guys give me, size him/her up against the opposition, and make my choice.

I would really appreciate it if that choice wasn't Romney -- I don't care how much some folks like him: he'll lose, pure and simple. Romney stands a spit's chance in hell of winning a presidential election.  Find somebody who can win it. (and if he did win, well, don't expect the GOP to be very popular because of it)

Right now, given my druthers, freaking Superman/Wonder Woman.  It's going to take fucking Olympus and Valhalla combined to get us out of the shit we're in.

**I'm jesting, but not really so much.

180

Right now, given my druthers, freaking Superman/Wonder Woman.  It's going to take fucking Olympus and Valhalla combined to get us out of the shit we're in.

**I'm jesting, but not really so much.

Posted by: unknown jane at April 20, 2010 01:48 PM (5/yRG)

No chicks not named Palin.

181

(and if he did win, well, don't expect the GOP to be very popular because of it)

Bingo. Repeat after me: They're only going to hate us anyway. They will never respect us anyway.

182

No chicks not named Palin.

Ahem.

183 Republicans need a strong conservative. Isn't Zell Miller still kicking around? /yes snark since we all know Zell is a Democrat.

184 tax you can opt out ofby getting insurance.

Sort of like "I am opting not to go to prison by paying my taxes"?

185 I'm on a beanbag, not in a hole.

I'm breathing through my mouth because I'm congested.

"Colon Cancer" is already a pretty horrible name.  I don't think I could beat that.

186

Ahem.

Posted by: Michelle Bachmann at April 20, 2010 01:51 PM (ujg0T)

Palin is more hittable.  IMHO.  Maybe it's the accent.  Yes, that's what I'm basing my Veep pick on: hitability.  Sue me.

187 maybe Thune, maybe Ryan (i like Ryan better) with Palin as the return nominee for VP

Get this through your thick, Cro Magnon skulls. Palin will never be the VP on another ticket. The "you can be our cheerleader, sweetie, but don't even think about running onto the field; that's for the big boys" message is insulting and needs to stop now. You can't legitimately call Palin irrelevant, because she regularly draws massive crowds to her events.  So, you lavish praise on her for the "energy" she brings to the party and movement but at the same time argue that she can do more good from the sidelines waving the pom-poms.

Show me someone with her record who is as charismatic and has a base of supporters who will donate time and money to get that person elected. I want to beat Obama as much as anybody. Let that person reassure me of their very strong commitment to the issues that are important to me and most voters. Otherwise, STFU about Sarah Palin. If your guy isn't tough enough to get in the ring and make his case, but has his supporters attempt to demoralize their opponents' supporters before the primaries, then I want nothing to do with them. I respect Obama more than cowards like this.

188 Republicans need a strong conservative. Isn't Zell Miller still kicking around? /yes snark since we all know Zell is a Democrat.

Posted by: Just A Grunt at April 20, 2010 01:51 PM (pOC9r)

I'd vote for Zell.  He'd be better on foreign policy, and could not possibly be worse on domestic policy.  And I'd be willing to bet that the Democrats wouldn't have him now.  Didn't he quit the party?  Or just retire?  If Lieberman is not welcome, Zell is the anti-Christ.

189 "I'm not a Republican, so I have to take what you guys give me, size him/her up against the opposition, and make my choice. I would really appreciate it if that choice wasn't Romney"

God dammit: you need to become a Republican.  PLEASE.  We're losing the fight to the Steeles and Romneys and Mccains right now.

190 Get this through your thick, Cro Magnon skulls. Palin will never be the VP on another ticket. The "you can be our cheerleader, sweetie, but don't even think about running onto the field; that's for the big boys" message is insulting and needs to stop now.

Uhhmm.  My plan is for her to be Veep for 8 years and then Preznit for 8 years.  Is that too insulting?

191

194: Whoa. Saying Palin isn't ready yet is not the same as saying we don't like her.

For starters, she hasn't even stated plainly what she is doing for 2012. In fact, I think AOSHQ should make a rule: NO knock-down-drag-out threadwars about who should run in 2012 until 2011, or at least until after this November.

Remember that Palin was thrown unprepared to the libmedia wolves in 2008 (thanks, Juan McLame!), and too many of the dumbasses still think badly of her, and sadly, they do vote.

192 Also, read the Mass. constitution if you buy Romney's latest lies.

He read that thing and still imposed a massive health care program over his people.  Just because the 10th amendment leaves that power to states doesn't mean the state leaves that power to its government.

Romney's a fraud.  He'd happily be championing Romneycare and promising to impose it on a national level if the wind was blowing the other way.  Tell me you don't believe that.  He's someone we have to fight, hard, and early. 

193 He's not the best candidate for immigration control, and he wasn't even in 2008 (that honor would have gone to Duncan Hunter), but he is willing to call a spade a spade and state the hard truth.

Unless he has actually done something, then I could care less what kind of "hard truths" he's stating. Name-calling isn't what I'm looking for in a leader.

194

Name-calling isn't what I'm looking for in a leader.

I am. "Name-calling" is what the libmedia (and the "respectable" losers in the GOP Establishment) say about someone who is finally telling it like it is. Call a spade a spade.

195 tax you can opt out ofby getting insurance.

Sort of like "I am opting not to go to prison by paying my taxes"?

You might want to focus on smart comments and deemphasize cute comments.

In MA, mandate is paid for my medicaid; you don't pay out of pocket until a certain threshold of income.  So the penalty for not having coverage is an income tax,  It may be a perverse income tax, but I fail to see how it's fundamentally different than the tax you pay in NY, or elsewhere for whatever the state says you must pay it for.

NOW, you can criticize the coverage bells and whistles the state forces you to pay for, but those bells and whistles exist in NY, and most states.

So what you are left with is criticizing Romney from being Governor of a liberal/leftish state not for creating a new evil called "mandates."

196

Paul Ryan?

Posted by: Ben at April 20, 2010 01:29 PM (wuv1c)

 

I dunno yet, Ben. I get these visions and mysterious voices in the room mutter cool prophesies. But on that one they were vague.

I get them all of the time, though. So I'll get back to you if I get a clarification.

197

196  Hey, I've been voting for you guys almost exclusively since I started voting (except the locals -- we've got some whingy, corrupt turds for Repubs around here, not all, but they are either very good or very bad).  I like to reserve the right to not be beholden to a political party.

And considering that I think a resurrected Genghis Khan might be just the thing this country needs, I'm not sure you would really want me.

198 Uhhmm.  My plan is for her to be Veep for 8 years and then Preznit for 8 years.  Is that too insulting?

Yes, because you are most likely saying that to get some pasty-faced, sadsack elected who wouldn't draw a crowd of a couple hundred otherwise. You keep fucking that next-in-line chicken, GOP.

199

I like to reserve the right to not be beholden to a political party.

Sorry, but primaries DO matter. I even have respect for people who remain registered Democrats on the grounds that they can do damage control in the primaries.

 

200 So what you are left with is criticizing Romney from being Governor of a liberal/leftish state not for creating a new evil called "mandates."

Not that Mittens has a problem with mandates.

"I like mandates." Mitt Romney

201 "Uhhmm.  My plan is for her to be Veep for 8 years and then Preznit for 8 years.  Is that too insulting?
Posted by: FUBAR"

Yeah, it's insulting to a lot of people because they interpret it as a sham attempt to steal her credibility on honesty and lend it to the Romney types.  It's an attempt to tell Palin fans that their candidate is just not on the same level as the Romneys (And this is absurd... Romney isn't on the same level as Palin, really, since Palin's accomplished things and held strong against political blowback and Romney's a total failure).

But I wouldn't be so surprised if Palin did surprise us all and run for VP again.  She'd do whatever it took to beat Obama.  I think she would be a lot more savvy in controlling how she's handled and making sure the candidate fights the good fight.

Anyway, it's lame to attempt to bolster some candidate by promising to link them to Palin.  If your candidate can't beat Palin or win on their own in the primary, they are losers.  If they can, without promising Palin fans some goodies, then that's a better argument.  Too many Romney fans were attacking Palin viciously and then promising Romney/Palin is the best think for Palin... it was disingenuous and ugly, and now, people just don't trust those kinds of promises even if they are sincere.

I don't think Palin has a political future, and I am sorry to say that because she's simply a better class of human than most politicians.  But I wouldn't rule out a VP pick, and I also wouldn't suggest it.  But as long as we all agree to fight the Romneys and Obamas and not pretend this is just a partisan contest, I'm happy to hear y'all freak out about who the VP will be.

202 Yes, because you are most likely saying that to get some pasty-faced, sadsack elected who wouldn't draw a crowd of a couple hundred otherwise. You keep fucking that next-in-line chicken, GOP.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 02:04 PM (mHQ7T)

So going from 1/2 term AK gov. to media gadfly to Veep is just too insulting.  Good Lord.  Do we really want a Preznit who is just a bit more qualified than Barry was?  I prefer more seasoning.  But then I'm a sexist chauvinist good ol' boy.

She does have nice knockers.

203 206  I used to do that, but it didn't work -- Durbin got re-elected.  Now I am an honest, if primarily inconsequential voter. 

204 Call a spade a spade.

Fine then. Is Miami a Third World country? Why would you even say such a thing as a serious candidate for President? If that's how you really feel, though, and you have a plan, then let's hear it. Oh, you don't have a plan? Well, you're just a name-calling baby. Call a spade a spade.

205 Posted by: Sentient Nintendo 64 at April 20, 2010 02:07 PM (dUOK+)

If I had to bet, I'd bet her career as a politician is over.  By her own choice.  But I'm a big fan, so I hope I'm wrong.  Seems to me that the fastest way to a Palin Preznitcy is via a Palin Vice-Preznitcy.  Don't blame me, blame the polls.

206 Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 02:09 PM (mHQ7T)

My keen sense of the obvious tells me you have a major hard-on for Miami.  Why is that?

207

If that's how you really feel, though, and you have a plan, then let's hear it. Oh, you don't have a plan?

He did. It was called walling off the border and kicking illegals out. But you didn't want to hear that, because your cheap gardener and maid are like family to you, in the same way that Scarlett loved her Mammy.

208 Republicans win with governors, especially southern and western governors. Chris Christie is not the exception since he hasn't served much of a term yet. If Bambi wins in 2012 (God forbid) then Christie would be awesome in 2016; otherwise, the GOP candidate should be a southern or western governor. So: who do we have to work with? I'm just going to list the westerners and southerners: Bob Riley Sean Parnell Jan Brewer Sonny Perdue Butch Otter Bobby Jindal Dave Heineman Mike Rounds Gary Herbert Jim Gibbons John Hoeven Mitch Daniels T-Paw Haley Barbour Rick Perry Now take out the ones nobody's heard of. That leaves: Bobby Jindal Mitch Daniels T-Paw Haley Barbour Rick Perry Of these, only Daniels, Perry, and T-Paw have any appeal at all for me.

209 So going from 1/2 term AK gov. to media gadfly to Veep is just too insulting.

Then what does she bring to the ticket besides her knockers, pig? Make the case for your own guy, instead of talking dirty about a mother of five and the most successful retail politician in America.

210

206 In fact, none of my attempts at primary rigging in the past have panned out, and neither party really puts up my sort of ideal canidate anyway, so why pick and choose when there really is no good choice?

Now, if the GOP actually presents me with some valid choices in '12, then I may join up and vote the primary -- but they have to do that first, or at least give some indication that they will.

211 "Hey, I've been voting for you guys almost exclusively since I started voting (except the locals -- we've got some whingy, corrupt turds for Repubs around here, not all, but they are either very good or very bad).  I like to reserve the right to not be beholden to a political party.

And considering that I think a resurrected Genghis Khan might be just the thing this country needs, I'm not sure you would really want me.

Posted by: unknown jane at"

Local republicans are usually douchebags.  I hate to say it.  We need some kind of overhaul and a lot of people talk about taking over the GOP, but it's hard to do for most busy folks so we always wind up with gasbags.

I think most of us know that college republican douchebag type.  They say the right words about limited government, but have stars in their eyes to be a crony.  Ugh.

Anyway, at least vote in our primaries.  2010 is around the corner, but after it's clear to the dems they are fighting for survival, they will attempt to pick our nominee as Romney.  One of the several moves we should see coming ahead, in my opinion, and we need people like you who are disgusted with the GOP assholes.

212 the GOP candidate should be a southern or western governor.

If you run a southerner, the election will be even more about race. They will say it regardless, but you will be giving them an opening to say it even more.

213 "Now, if the GOP actually presents me with some valid choices in '12, then I may join up and vote the primary"

uhhhh fuck.  You have a good point.  I don't see how my vote in the 2008 primary was worth a fuck.  Mccain Romney or Huckabee?

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sobs

214 #205 At this juncture, Palin would still be a liability as a VP candidate, even with Romney (and it's only with Romney, amongst likely candidates, that she would ever be an asset as VP).

You're not thinking clearly if you think Palin can beat Obama in 2012. 60% of voters would not vote for her today.  She will drive a vote to Obama for every vote she gets--or worse.

But it she gets her act together a bit more, she could be an overall asset in 2 years for Romney; for any other GOP candidate?  Probably no net gain.

215 Then what does she bring to the ticket besides her knockers, pig? Make the case for your own guy, instead of talking dirty about a mother of five and the most successful retail politician in America.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 02:12 PM (mHQ7T)

Lighten up.  Lighten up, get a clue, and calm down.  I refuse to be embarrassed, or apologize, even insincerely, for talking about knockers at the AoSHQ.  So please get over yourself.  Or better yet, get a sense of humor.  I'm a Palin fan, but the public at large thinks she needs more experience.  Deal with it.

And did I mention lighten up?

216 " you will be giving them an opening to say it even more.
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane"

Friend, you mean well, but who cares?

At this point, I think it's a positive for the right for the left to call us racists.  They have blown it.  The most powerful man in the world is Obama.  No one likes a powerful man whining that he's the victim of racism.

If the best choice for the nominee is a southern white dude, then so be it.  They are going to call us racist if we nominate Michael Steele, so who gives a shit? 

Frankly, it's a trap out idiot leadership keeps falling into.  We're showing the idiots out there that it's a credible charge or we wouldn't dance around it so much.

217 By the way, those who say "the argument for Romney v. Obama is too nuanced to be viable" are fooling themselves into thinking the argument for any GOP v. Obama is a slam-dunk.  It's not.  2012 won't be a slam-dunk for any GOP figure.

Romney v. Obama may be a suicide mission, but so is every other GOP alternative.

218 If you run a southerner, the election will be even more about race. They will say it regardless, but you will be giving them an opening to say it even more. Okay, a westerner: Daniels or T-Paw. Is T-Paw too squishy?

219 My keen sense of the obvious tells me you have a major hard-on for Miami.  Why is that?

Because you're an idiot who jumps to simple conclusions? Florida is a swing state. It is unfathomable to me that a serious presidential candidate would go there -- mind you, his own party doesn't really like him much, because of his snide remarks about how much they suck at their jobs -- and says, "You know, this place would be a lot nicer without all the wetback coconuts in Miami."

When someone tells me they think Tom Tancredo, that stiff-spined truth teller, would make a good President, I have to wonder what drugs they're on.

220
"You're not thinking clearly if you think Palin can beat Obama in 2012. 60% of voters would not vote for her today.  She will drive a vote to Obama for every vote she gets--or worse.

But it she gets her act together a bit more, she could be an overall asset in 2 years for Romney; for any other GOP candidate?  Probably no net gain.
Posted by: ParisParamus"

Did you actually read what you're replying to?

I didn't say Palin had a political future.  I honestly don't know, though your analysis would say Reagan had no future.  your analysis is utter garbage.  Romney Romney Romney.  Palin is his property now, eh?  no one else could possibly use her and she's useless on her own?

LOL.

Your polls say Huckabee is our next president, so please spare us.  You are reacting with so much hostility to my post that you're telling me to not endorse Palin... when I told people not to endorse her either.

I hope she runs.  Let her campaign and see what the fucking voters think. If she doesn't, I hope it's because a great leader runs and Palin helps that leader beat the liberal Romney.  But Palin is very moderate and I don't expect her to do what I want.  She's earned her great life, unlike, say, .... Romney.

221 Romney v. Obama may be a suicide mission

FIFY

222 Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 02:21 PM (mHQ7T)

You're taking yourself way too seriously.  And it's making you act like an asshole.  And that "Tattoo De Plane" shit offends the fuck out of me.  Pig.

223

If the best choice for the nominee is a southern white dude, then so be it.  They are going to call us racist if we nominate Michael Steele, so who gives a shit? 

Or to repeat: They're only going to smear us anyway. It is what the Commiecrats do. It is their nature. Don't think you can take the high road with these people. You can't.

224 Palin can have a political future if:

(1) She runs for Congress, wins, and serves for a while
(2) Runs for governor of Alaska again, and serves 8 years
(3) Is picked as VP by Mitt Romney.

225

#194

"Get this through your thick, Cro Magnon skulls. Palin will never be the VP on another ticket. The "you can be our cheerleader, sweetie, but don't even think about running onto the field; that's for the big boys" message is insulting and needs to stop now. You can't legitimately call Palin irrelevant, because she regularly draws massive crowds to her events.  So, you lavish praise on her for the "energy" she brings to the party and movement but at the same time argue that she can do more good from the sidelines waving the pom-poms."

I love your passion, I agree with your logic, but the the public is not ready for a Sarah Palin... yet, my goal is to get this country to a place where Sarah can get a fair shake and actually become POTUS, right now the liberal media and the RINO Repubs will not allow a Sarah Palin to have power, but we're gonna change that... you betcha

 

226 You might want to focus on smart comments and deemphasize cute comments.

Thanks for the unsolicited advice.

The point is that one of the many things that has animated an electorate to the point of making it a real possibility that conservatives may control Congress in '11 and see a conservative president inaugurated in "13 is the idea of a mandate - forcing people to buy insurance.  Romney supported such a mandate when governor.  He supported it as a candidate for president.  It makes no difference whether it was his idea originally, or whether he governed a liberal state whose citizens were predisposed to accept it.

He (and you) are reduced to lamely spinning this - that it's not coercive or a "mandate" because you can avoid a penalty (a higher tax) by purchasing insurance.  Of course it's coercive - the tax is the coercive mechanism.

Conservatives would be much better off in '12 without a candidate burdened with such baggage.

227 He did. It was called walling off the border and kicking illegals out. But you didn't want to hear that, because your cheap gardener and maid are like family to you, in the same way that Scarlett loved her Mammy.

I was in Toronto for two years with my hot Canadian husband who holds two degrees from Ivy League schools, paid taxes here and still got banned for five years because of visa problems. We would have happily paid a fine, but we paid thousands to an immigration attorney instead and waited years for our turn in line *again* while people who knowingly broke thew law stayed and sent home their remittance money. Don't fucking tell me about "mammies" and gardeners, you skinhead.

228 See this from Michael Barone about Daniels: http://tinyurl.com/yc2h8gt

229

As an outsider looking in, my advice would be to find the most ruthless person with really great leadership skills.  Solid character would be good too, but I won't realistically wish for it. 

Let's face it, by '12 this country is going to be in a shambles, both domestically and on the foreign policy front -- the most successful leader will likely be somebody that nobody really wants, because there are going to be some very crucial and hard choices that will have to be pushed through.  I've always had a simmering worry that while Obama is bad, what comes after him will by necessity have to be infinitely worse in some regards.

So, who wants to help me try ressurecting Ghenghis?

230

Oh "sentient" one, stop beating around the bush, and tell us how you really feel.

But wait 'til I get back. A voice just told me to go and get a cheeseburger.

231 You might want to focus on smart comments and deemphasize cute comments.

You might also want to try punching down.

232 right now the liberal media and the RINO Repubs will not allow a Sarah Palin to have power

That will never change as long as you allow them to pick your candidates. Nice touch with the smiley face.

233 Romney v. Obama may be a suicide mission, but so is every other GOP alternative.

Then you've missed the entire point of Drew's post and the vast majority of the comments.

What differentiates Romney from "every other GOP alternative" is that in his state, he supported an idea that is hated by the very people who want Obama out of office.  Jebus, even Obama realizes this weakness, which is why he constantly reminds everyone who will listen that ObamaCare is "not that much different than what they did in Massachusetts."

Why can't you?

234

>>>As an outsider looking in, my advice would be to find the most ruthless person with really great leadership skills. Solid character would be good too, but I won't realistically wish for it.

Hear, hear!  Though, I don't think "ruthless" is right word - though ruthlessness is certainly what we need for our national defense - as opposed to the insane squishiness this nation has fallen into.  Principled, smart, and impervious to the smears of the media is what is needed.

>>>Let's face it, by '12 this country is going to be in a shambles, both domestically and on the foreign policy front -- the most successful leader will likely be somebody that nobody really wants, because there are going to be some very crucial and hard choices that will have to be pushed through. I've always had a simmering worry that while Obama is bad, what comes after him will by necessity have to be infinitely worse in some regards.

I really wouldn't worry about this so much. This nation isn't going to make it to 2012, intact, with The Precedent in office. It's either The Precedent or the US.

>>>So, who wants to help me try ressurecting Ghenghis?

Posted by: unknown jane at April 20, 2010 02:28 PM (5/yRG)

Genghis salted the fields, so the new FDA idiocy puts him out of business.

235 (3) Is picked as VP by Mitt Romney.

Mitt Romney is a proven loser and will get his ass handed to him in the primaries, if the Republican party has any sense... and it's looking that way.

236 "Romney v. Obama may be a suicide mission, but so is every other GOP alternative.
Posted by: ParisParamus"

This is the classic Romney argument.  If Romney can't win, no other Republican can win.  Because in poli sci 101, the professor tells you that the more centrist candidate wins every time.

Now, bear in mind that Paris freaked when I called Romney a moderate earlier, demanding I prove it.

This is stupid shit.  Romney isn't just a point on a timeline of opinions. He's a man with a record of failing, and he's a liar.  his only experience anyone cares about is Romneycare, and it failed.  His state rejected him (and he wouldn't win it).  So simplifying this down to "Romney is the most liberal Republican, so clearly he'd do better than any alternative GOP candidate" is attempt to lie to us.  The people selling this argument want us to ignore character and competence.

Palin would do better against Obama than Romney in a national contest.  Neither will be the nominee and Palin probably won't run, but voters don't like cowards.  Romney is a coward.  He ran from reelection and he lies about his views.  He bashes people and then praises them, depending on the winds.

Palin's got plenty of black marks, but she's an honest person who would present a coherent view that isn't a lie.  The idea that she would do worse than Romney is ridiculous.

I don't mind the idea of picking a moderate, though.  So let's have the Romney fans analyze OTHER moderates who don't lie all the time and look like idiots and fail.  It's not asking for much, but when I asked Paris to do that, she didn't even acknowledge that Romney was a moderate.

I should also mention, and I'm serious about this, that I've met Romney on a few different occasions and he simply smells a lot like urine.  I think he has some kind of problem.  He's very unimpressive in person.  I don't know how much of a difference this makes these days, but I think he wets his diaper and it's worth considering.

237 I think Miami is like a Third World country in that there are enclaves in which you will not find a single store sign printed in English, and in which English is not spoken. In other words, packed with immigrants who reject assimilation into American culture. In other words, recreating the Third World country from which they came within our borders. RACISSSSSST!!!!! NUTSSSS!!!!

238 :"

Oh "sentient" one, stop beating around the bush, and tell us how you really feel.

But wait 'til I get back. A voice just told me to go and get a cheeseburger.

Posted by: Natasha & Boris at April 20, 2010 02:29 PM (ITzbJ)"

I can't argue with that.  Cheeseburgers > political dick wiggling.

239 Frankly, it's a trap out idiot leadership keeps falling into. We're showing the idiots out there that it's a credible charge or we wouldn't dance around it so much.

I see your point. Just wondering who this person from the South is who has been so quiet all the time the Democrats have continued calling Republicans racists since Obama took office and ushered in this period of racial healing.

240

I was in Toronto for two years with my hot Canadian husband who holds two degrees from Ivy League schools, paid taxes here and still got banned for five years because of visa problems.

You don't get it, do you? They won't change that. They LIKE that aspect of immigration policy. They just want more underclass, whether for short-sighted greed on the Right or a New Proletariat on the Left.

 

241 I'm not a Tancredo ... ummm ... booster.  But I have been to Miami, and long before Tom said it, I thought it was a lot like third world countries I've visited. 

I know it's a pretty politically silly thing to say, but some people want to fix Miami.

Our immigration policy can be fixed if we want to.  I don't know why we don't accept anyone who learns our language and can demonstrate a professional skill, from engineering to plumbing, and reject everyone else.  I don't really care what country they are from if they assimilate and contribute.  Oh, and any criminals are kicked out and can't visit.  Illegal immigration is a crime.

Immigration is not a hard issue.

242 Conservatives would be much better off in '12 without a candidate burdened with such baggage.

True.  But I think you are comparing Romney to the alternative of your dreams, or a composite candidate rather than the ones likely to emerge (who will have their own flaws).  This is true especially in 2012 with an incumbent POTUS where the "barriers to entry" are higher than in a non-incumbent year.

As I just emailed to Steven Spruiell in response to his Corner post on Romney, if Romney's primary resume item was government, the MA thing would make him DOA (another Pawlenty, who I believe will go nowhere).  But the private sector is Romney's Big Thing.  That attenuates the healthcare thing to the point where he can win the primary, and win the general.

243 In other words, packed with immigrants who reject assimilation into American culture. In other words, recreating the Third World country from which they came within our borders.

Every single one of them, huh? Every single person of Hispanic descent in Miami is a criminal who came here to leech off the system, contribute as little as possible and import the level of filth and squalor from whence they came?

Well, that sounds right tolerant to me. /

244 " Just wondering who this person from the South is who has been so quiet all the time the Democrats have continued calling Republicans racists since Obama took office and ushered in this period of racial healing.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 02:39 PM (mHQ7T)"

He's called Santa Claus.

I dunno. I figured it was a reference to Rick Perry.  Who is a lot like Mitt Romney only actually pretty damn competent.  I wonder if Mitt Romney fans can 'settle' for Rick Perry.

245 I don't know how much of a difference this makes these days, but I think he wets his diaper and it's worth considering.

I don't care if he shits himself like a drunken baboon.  He cannot be the candidate in '12 in an atmosphere where millions are demanding REPEAL of an idea which he has championed and now tries to defend.

246 You don't get it, do you? They won't change that.

I want to hear how building a wall and kicking out the illegals fixes that. No, I want to hear how you would actually do that to begin with.

It was never a realistic plan, just something Tanc said to get on the ballot. Look at his record. He's done absolutely nothing.

247 Look up the definition of "enclave" and get back to me. And please cite where I said "every single" Hispanic. Please cite where I said "Hispanic." There are plenty of Haitians with the same problem there. And here's a clue for you and your HAWT Canadian husband: if I wish to immigrate to Canada, I will have to show proficiency in either English or French, Canada's official languages. OFFICIAL!!! RACIST AND EXCLUSIONARY!!! /quit showing your ass.

248

"That will never change as long as you allow them to pick your candidates."

you're talking to someone who did not "hold my nose and vote for McCain"

I would crash and burn the whole Republican Party to rid it of these detestable and comtemptable RINO's like McCain, Graham, Coburn, Cornyn, et. al.

but they are running the show and it's going to take at least a couple of election cycles to get rid of them so that people like Bachmann, Palin, DeMint, Inhofe, Kyl and Ryan can be the ones in charge. 

249 But the private sector is Romney's Big Thing.  That attenuates the healthcare thing to the point where he can win the primary, and win the general.

Sure, Romney wants private sector experience to be his Big Thing.  But campaigns don't work that way.  He will be forced to own the "health care thing."  Constantly.  By other primary candidates, the opposition and the media (but I repeat myself). 

He can't attenuate that.  He either is for an issue that his base is dead-set against, or he has wildly flip-flopped and is untrustworthy on all other issues.  Name any other realistic GOP candidate that has such baggage.

250 Daniels or Perry. Perry or Daniels. T-Paw looks too squishy, now that I think about it. And let's quit fighting, think about November, and move to the next thread.

251 "231 Palin can have a political future if:

(1) She runs for Congress, wins, and serves for a while
(2) Runs for governor of Alaska again, and serves 8 years
(3) Is picked as VP by Mitt Romney.


Posted by: ParisParamus"

Do you even like Palin?  You seem to actually prefer Romney.  So why would you come up with a list for Palin when you clearly don't really want to help her?

OH... I see it now... we have to nominate that idiot Romney.

I don't really give a shit about Palin's career either.  I think she's a better class than normal politicians, but it's on her to decide what she wants to do, and I don't think it's holding office anymore.  I sure as hell don't want to run for office.

Some people are not like Mitt Romney.  Some people do not think power and office holding is the end all.  Some people just say what they think, without changing their views as the winds change, in the constant pursuit of power.

Mitt Romney based Ronald Reagan.  Fuck Mitt Romney, the poser conservative.

Frankly, I don't think Romney has a chance of winning the nomination.  His failures and scandals are far more serious than Palins.  His pathetic fleeing of places Palin and other popular leaders, as well as his Ron Paul vote rigging gayness, speak volumes about his insecurity.  Sure, he's one of only a few people actually running for 2012 president right now.  He's beating Huck and Ron Paul. 

And yeah, he's beating Palin, not that it matters to me.  He's going to lose to some great conservative.  There's no way he can compete in a debate on today's issues.  He's the governor of destroying an economy and imposing 'free' health care.

I guess I should add that I love RINOs in blue states.  They tend to have a huge impact for good versus the Kennedeys and Schumers.  Romney was probably more liberal than all but a couple democrats in MA history, so not the best example, but please just come up with better RINOs. 

252

And here's a clue for you and your HAWT Canadian husband: if I wish to immigrate to Canada, I will have to show proficiency in either English or French, Canada's official languages. OFFICIAL!!! RACIST AND EXCLUSIONARY!!!

She really does come across as a real bitch, doesn't she?

But Canada does have two lessons for America:

1. Do not allow a separate group of ethnolinguistic troublemakers to divide your country.

2. Do not allow a single-payer socialized medical system.

253 I dunno. I figured it was a reference to Rick Perry.  Who is a lot like Mitt Romney only actually pretty damn competent.  I wonder if Mitt Romney fans can 'settle' for Rick Perry.

I figured it was supposed to be Bobby Jindal. On paper he looks good. Young, educated, fixed Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina, good track record there, and he knows a lot about healthcare. Oh, and he's Catholic! (except that weird exorcism) and he's got a great immigrant story. He's brown...

problem is that he's boring as hell. But that's what primaries are for. You can see what people are actually like and hear their policy debates. Except we all saw Mitt Romney last primary, so he's fair game. As for Palin, she ran with McCain and had to conform to the top of the ticket. The jury's still out on her.

254 And please cite where I said "every single" Hispanic.

We were talking about Tom Tancredo calling Miami a Third World country. Try to keep up.

255 Oh, and when someone tells you that Romney is some brilliant business man because of his vague record of managing his daddy's fortune, just ignore them.

yes, talk radio hyped Romney as much as possible in an effort to push him to beat a lethargic Mccain.  Romney couldn't even manage that, but the business record of his is actually terrible.  Yeah, it was in the hundreds of millions of dollars, but he didn't succeed with it.

I liked the Romney AMC Gremlin too, but like Mitt Romney, it failed because it wasn't at heart what it posed as.  He will attempt to distract us from his failed political record with talk about how he was president of a company he owned that didn't do anything great, but he's running for President (and he's running soooo early it's the gayest thing he's ever done).

And I'm not kidding when I say this dude smells like an old lady diaper. 

256 She really does come across as a real bitch, doesn't she?

Oh, you two pigs belong together. You're like a pigs-in-a-blanket.

257 I never understood why it was racist to suggest a national language.

I am of mixed heritage (not that I give a shit or that it means anything about me).

Who cares?  We have to communicate to eachother.  Why have a government with forms in 500 languages?  Why have the dangers of people on the roads who can't read English?

What's the point of this?  It's a tiny nod to spanish speakers, but it's insulting.  They can learn English.  It's not that big a damn deal.

258 There are plenty of Haitians with the same problem there.

True. There are plenty of Haitian immigrants who would be insulted by Tom Tancredo's comments, as well as Hispanics.

259 Search me. I can't get the top of Tattoo's head back on and there's crazy spewing everywhere. It's like The Sorcerer's Apprentice in here.

260 You're taking yourself way too seriously.  And it's making you act like an asshole.

HAHAHAHA the irony. It hurts!

261

Oh, you two pigs belong together. You're like a pigs-in-a-blanket.

I can only hope that one of the border jumping bandits robs, rapes and beats you, and then flees across the border to escape prosecution. And does it again and again until you wise up.

262 Jeff, don't eat the brown acid! Too late.

263 I would never eat "brown" acid, because I'm a racist, Tom Tancredo supportin' racially racistin' racist. As far as acid goes, If It Ain't White, It Ain't Right. You do realize you sound like Janeane Garafolo, don't you?

264 I can only hope that one of the border jumping bandits robs, rapes and beats you, and then flees across the border to escape prosecution. And does it again and again until you wise up.

If it hasn't happened after five years living in Bushwick and another five on the LES throughout my 20's coming home drunk on the train at all hours, being just a dumb kid all tarted up and asking for it then I'm probably safe.

It's nice to live in ethnically diverse communities, actually, because you see people who are different from you as human beings. You direct your anger at the bureaucrats who can't or won't do their jobs and the politicians who keep up the status quo where it belongs.

On another note, I'm just gonna say your comment should get you banned. Should but probably won't. But telling a woman you hope she gets raped and beaten is pretty fucked up, no matter how badly she's humiliating you.

265 EDIT: the status quo... where it belongs.

266 I would crash and burn the whole Republican Party to rid it of these detestable and contemptible RINO's

Hope you're enjoying the ride so far.

267 "telling a woman you hope she gets raped and beaten is pretty fucked up,"

Ummmm, yeah.

But I don't think it was a serious comment.  It was a sarcastic over the top joke, just like saying someone's worse than hitler and eats panda fetuses, or joking about Palin's physique.

A lot of people are so tired of PC that they like this blog specifically so they can flout decency.  There's probably a line, I think Ace had some discussion about it a few months ago, but the general theme here often is to say silly and ugly shit that would make a liberal's head explode.

268 You do realize you sound like Janeane Garafolo, don't you?

I've actually run into her briefly. It's New York City.

269 >>>It's nice to live in ethnically diverse communities, actually, because you see people who are different from you as human beings.

Huh?  That's sort of a loony thing to say.

>>>You direct your anger at the bureaucrats who can't or won't do their jobs and the politicians who keep up the status quo where it belongs.

Their job is to keep illegals out and to deny them any services and throw them out the minute the government is made aware of their illegal presence.  It's called "sovereignty".  Illegals have their own countries and they have NO RIGHT to be here.  Period.

>>>On another note, I'm just gonna say your comment should get you banned. Should but probably won't. But telling a woman you hope she gets raped and beaten is pretty fucked up, no matter how badly she's humiliating you.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 03:12 PM (mHQ7T)

You are promoting policies that lead to exactly that for many others, and doing so against all sense of law or reason.

270 But I don't think it was a serious comment.

Yeah, but they think Tom Tancredo is presidential, so who really knows?

271

264  When it comes to a "national language" S.I. Hayakawa and I are very much on the same page (although considering the open nature of our borders to with our north/south neighbors, it's probably a wise thing to have our students at least capable of conversing in Spanish and French -- but not at the expense of learning their native language, which is American Standard English).

Hey, it really isn't cool to be wishing rape and beating on somebody; I tend to agree that parts of Dade Co. have become little islands of third world dystopia and that there has to be some limitation put on immigrants (hey, my family had to deal with it) -- kicking out the bad apples perhaps, I don't know.  Still, no wishing rape on somebody.

272

"Hope you're enjoying the ride so far."

 

kinda bumpy, but it's getting there... at least my train has a destination, does yours?

273

Once again, I ask:

Just what has Romney accomplished that indicates he'd be a good choice for President?

Was it his failed campaign against Edward Kennedy, which he led until the debate, and then after "yes-butting" on every single issue, lost in a 20-point landslide?

Was it his disowning of the Reagan presidency in that race?

Was it his single political win--a victory in the 2002 governor's race, barely, even though the GOP was having an excellent year overall, Republicans had won the last three elections, and the Democrats fielded a horrible candidate?

Was it his one term as governor, in which he rubber-stamped the Democrat legislature's laws?  Was it his support of a MA state takeover of the health care system?  Was it his passage of an "assault weapons" ban to replace the federal one that expired?  Was it his support for taxpayer-funded abortions?

Was it his failed attempt to spend his way to the GOP nomination in 2008?

Just what is this Romneymania based on?

274 You do realize you sound like Janeane Garafolo, don't you? I've actually run intoabsorbed her lifeforce briefly. It's New York City. Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 03:16 PM (mHQ7T)

275 Huh?  That's sort of a loony thing to say.

OK, Birther.

You are promoting policies that lead to exactly that for many others, and doing so against all sense of law or reason.

Where am I promoting open borders or rape and violence? Why would either merit that comment?

276 Very well laid out Ken.  While I obviously agree with you already, I appreciate you listing it out like that.

He's a ludicrous option.  That's why he's running now, trying to win against Ron Paul and Huck.  He's terrible against actual realistic competitors who will show up next year.

277

#281

excellent Romney-smackings!

278 absorbed her lifeforce

Because I think Tancredo's a nut? LOL

279 Why would she want to be second-fiddle on the suicide mission?

Because in the eyes of many people, she is damaged goods due to her resignation; and in the eyes of others (the two groups actually overlap), she is simply inexperienced.  Being VP, an active VP, with, perhaps a Secretary of Energy position thrown in (I'm pretty sure that's constitutional), would give her experience, and rehabilitate her in the eyes of others.

_{But honestly, at this juncture, I'm not even sure if Palin is VP material.  She's a great conservative cheerleader, but I don't feel she had demonstrated that she has enough substance; right now, I would make her secretary of energy, not VP.  I want her to be Presidential material, but I just don't see it, at least not yet.}

280 Ken, I hope you don't mind if I save that for future reference.

281 288:  be my guest.

282 202
So what you are left with is criticizing Romney from being Governor of a liberal/leftish state not for creating a new evil called "mandates."

Posted by: ParisParamus at April 20, 2010 02:03 PM (7sqVs)

Really?  Because I thought I was criticizing Romney for promoting, running, and praising stupid liberal policy that runs over budget and is doomed to cause economic failure for the state.

I didn't realize that you can't have a conservative idea, or say bad things about liberalism gone mad if you're "Governor of a liberal/leftish state".  I guess Romney had no choice but to say he liked mandates, thought RomneyCare was a great idea, and was proud of this turd sandwich he helped foist off onto Massachusetts.

Do realize that being an actual conservative, I have no choice but to vote against Romney whenever given the choice, and to pan him in blogs like this. Don't criticize me for it, I don't really have choices on this, I'm driven by who and what I am... just like your man Romney.

If you disagree, please explain why I'm so super-cool as to have amazing free-will powers; and Romney doesn't have this, but should be elected anyhow.  Shouldn't we look for someone who has this amazing power I have?

283 #262 Ever hear of Bain Capital?  How can I politely say you sound very ignorant.

284 OK, Birther.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 03:33 PM (mHQ7T)

LOL.  Is that supposed to be some terrible smear?  It's nice of you to advertise the fact that you don't understand the issue of Constitutional eligibility, and don't care, and that you think anyone standing up for our Constitution should be derided for such.  Good stuff, there, tattoo.  Yep.

285 If you don't think Palin has the substance yet, you are listening to Tina Fey and not paying attention to Sarah Palin. 

And if you think Romney is a man of substance, you haven't been paying attention to him either.

Palin's gotten major shit accomplished... oh, and I think Secretaries of Energy should only be highly competent people.  Saying Palin has no substance while saying she should fill this critical position is fucking amazing.  It's dishonest.  It's a con.

You're admitting she would help the country is a very tough area because she's proven to have great skill in energy, dealing with powerful interests and international negotiations that many other leaders failed to succeed at.  Or you're admitting you don't care about empty suits filling crucial positions if it helps Mitt Romney, the ultimate empty suit.

whatever, you can't actually promise this shit before the election, which is the critical point of the con.  You think Palin fans are just gullible fools because you just don't even see what it is about Palin that shows she's an honest and capable leader.  I agree she lacks experience at the level of Governor... so does Mitt.   He barely served and failed, which is a lot worse than serving so well the forces arrayed against you to where you chose your state over your power.

286 #262:  in much of Brooklyn, they would call you a schmuck.

287 Because in the eyes of many people, she is damaged goods due to her resignation; and in the eyes of others (the two groups actually overlap), she is simply inexperienced.

The resignation is easily explained and winning the nomination destroys that argument. Does anyone seriously think she would quit being the President?

Romney cannot, however, change the fact  that voters do not trust him andthat he implemented -- with Ted Kennedy advising him -- the one single issue the Republicans need to bring up constantly to win in 2010 and 2012.

288

To summarize what I was saying earlier:  Romney isn't just a RINO.  He's an empty suit as well.

I opposed Rudy Giuliani for the GOP nomination in 2008.  I considered him too liberal to be a GOP candidate, and I feared he would pull the party to the left.  He was, nevertheless, a very successful mayor of New York City and I could see why others might support him. 

Romney, in contrast, has no record of success.  He's just a "goldilocks" candidate:  not too left, not too right.  Unfortunately, the Presidency requires more than a perfect fit on a political graph.  It requires judgement and courage--neither of which Romney has ever exhibited.

289 No, Tattoo. Because you distill every disagreement down to racism on the part of your opponent. And because you're not one quadrillionth as smart as you think you are. Hence - the perpetual accusations of racism. It goes round and round: Too lazy or uninformed to debate what would be good conservative values in a presidential candidate, ranging from abortion, to immigration, to health care, to gun control, to taxation, to the role of government in our lives? Fuck all that! That's too much work! Just call me a racist, Tattoo - if that's all the firepower your meager collection of synapses can muster, then let me have it. Fuck the topic of the thread! Hijack that shit and whine about someone's dig at Miami! It's so much more interesting!

290 kinda bumpy, but it's getting there... at least my train has a destination, does yours?

I bet your train is running on schedule on top of it!

291

the one single issue the Republicans need to bring up constantly to win in 2010 and 2012.

We don't need to bring it up just to win.  Even if we don't win, we need to do everything we can to kill the Obamacare monstrosity.  This isn't just about the GOP.  It's about the future of America.

292 Palin already used her facebook page to point out specific sections of Obamacare that were problematic, forcing the congress to fix it.

What's Romney done, other than beta male sending proxies out to bash Palin for her resignation?

Palin's either directly attacking policies and discussing them quite well, or assembled a group of advisors to help her do it.  Her work has been pretty damn effective when compared with Steele or (lol) Romney.

But the Romney heads know they can ignore this and repeatedly claim she should become a beltway Republican before she's good enough.  It sounds like constructive criticism when it's really just dishonesty.

We don't want that kind of leadership.  I don't really think Palin is more than a foil for Romney to inflame the debate and avoid attention on his amazing fucking disasters.  clever prick.

293 LOL.  Is that supposed to be some terrible smear?

Just saying you're the last person to call someone crazy, when you routinely post long rambling comments and call him "the Precedent."  It's a little weird.

294 Even if we don't win, we need to do everything we can to kill the Obamacare monstrosity. This isn't just about the GOP.  It's about the future of America.

I agree 100%.

295 "Even if we don't win, we need to do everything we can to kill the Obamacare monstrosity. This isn't just about the GOP.  It's about the future of America."

cosigned  N64

NO FREE HEALTH CARE RINOS, PERIOD.

296

While we're on the subject of Romney being tied down by being in Massachusetts:

That argument doesn't hold water either.  While in a perfect world everyone would be a resident of one and only one state, in the real world politicians carpetbag all the time, and especially rich ones (who often have multiple homes).  Romney could have just as easily run in Michigan as in Massachusetts, or possibly even in Utah.  His state is as much a personal choice as all his other actions.

He chose to run in MA because he saw Kennedy as vulnerable in 1994 (because of the rape trial of Kennedy's nephew).  He chose to run there again in 2002, instead of MI, because the MA race looked more winnable.

297

"I bet your train is running on schedule on top of it!"

I'm an advocate of Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" theory, schedules are not important, things will happen in their own time in their own way, all that's important is that we each play our part to the best of our ablity.

298 >>>Just saying you're the last person to call someone crazy,

Okey doke.  Good argument, tattoo.

>>>when you routinely post long rambling comments

Oooh.  You're right.  That is some bad stuff and crtainly proves ... something.

>>>and call him "the Precedent."  It's a little weird.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 03:49 PM (mHQ7T)

He is The Precedent.  It is a perfect description of him, since that is what he was elected to be.  That is all he was elected to be.  I also call him the Indonesian Imbecile, which is equally accurate, though doesn't address his utility to the white guilters or relate to his actual election.  That second name has more to do with his Constitutional ineligibility, but you wouldn't understand that issue.

I don't think you know what the word "weird" means.  You seem to wield it just as you do "Birther". 

299 Another point:

Why is Romney even credible, with all the crap Ken and I point out?

Because he brings in more donations than any other Republican in the history of the party.  More than W, more than Mccain, more than Palin. 

Behind Obama and Hillary, Mitt Romney is the person Goldman Sachs gave the most money to.

Why?

Because he's not really a Republican at all... he's part of the system of corruption and big spending.  Give him some contributions and he'll get you lots of pork.  Mass is out of money because of Romneycare, but that was a lot of money and it went somewhere... guess who got that money?  Romney donators... the same people donating to democrats and Rinos.

They badly need the GOP to nominate someone who will keep playing the game.  Sure, they might make a little noise like Bush did, but keep the gravy train rolling in the big government direction.  Romney is the enemy of small government, having massively increased the only government he's touched.

He's not credible, and that his supporters always bring up Palin in a lame and obvious effort to change the subject to defending Palin is a direct effort to deceive and hide on Romney.

300 Romney or Guiliani would have been a much better candidate against Obama in 2008 by making executive experience an issue.  Neither may have been able to beat him, but they would have fared no worse than McCain at the worst.

But even as it was folly to pit a Senator devoid of management experience against Obama last time, it would be just as ill-timed to run Romney when the health care reform is opposed by a significant majority of voters. 

Comrade Obama and his propagandists are expert at the art of diversion, and the loopy lefty media is only too anxious to go along.  We cannot give them any sort of credible narrative to start their disinformation campaign if we expect to win.

Sorry, Mitt - you would probably have been a good President, perhaps one of the few who might have set us on track to get our fiscal house in order.  But your hour passed, and won't be coming around again in 2012, at least.

301

Where am I promoting open borders or rape and violence?

If you scorn efforts to build a wall to prevent more border jumpers, and if you scorn efforts to deport illegals, then you are promoting open borders by default, and the crime that too many of them are engaged in. Consequences and all that.

302

What's ironic is that the Romney supporters want to paint his opponents as members of a Palin cult.  In reality, it is the Romney group that are cult-like.  They are the ones who want to anoint a candidate without proper vetting. 

All the anti-Romney people want for Palin is for her to have a fair shot.  They want to give her a chance to make the case, or not make it, for her nomination.  They also want to give that chance to Huckabee, Pawlenty, Pence, Thune, Daniels, and whoever else throws their hat in the ring.

Romney campaign slogan:  Vote for me.  It's time.

Anti-Romney campaign slogan:  Not without our approval.

303 Adjoran, only the actual stuff they used their executive experience on would have come up.

So they have to have done a great job as executive before the experience helps them against The One.

I agree, nominating a Senator like Mccain was a mistake, though.  Terrible mistake.

I don't know where you get the idea Mitt would have stopped massively increasing the size and scope of government this time, but I admit no one really knows where Mitt's heart is since he's a liar about that stuff.  I think he's going to be a force in 2012, at least initially, because he is a man who will reward the corrupt that donate to him.  There's a reason he gets so much money from those who donate to Obama... it's a wise investment.  That money makes a huge difference.  We're seeing when Romney busses in  hundreds of voters to Ron Paul some polls. 

But now, Obama has much more executive experience than Romney, and it's very similar in what they did.  So I agree Romney's time is over.  He would have been better than Mccain and I was outspoken asking people to support him in 2008, but only because Mccain didn't really want to win.

304 A bad idea at the state level is a bad idea at the federal level. Ultimately, to the citizen, the style of the government boot on the throat is immaterial. Romney cannot escape this albatross even under the rubric of a States Rights defense. That he remained mute on the single most important issue to antagonize voters to date, especially conservatives, damages him irreparably. His plan was the template for the growing disaster, and he was forced -- by his own hand in defense of his own policy -- to sit idly while others fought the good fight. That was and is a memorable exhibition of fail.

So, bzzzt! Next contestant. And conservatives should ignore these early polls indicating Romney as the "leader" in the field. Surely the left-leaning media has some interest in prepping the battlefield, and don't think they won't build Romney up early now to create momentum and to clear the field only to tear him down when it matters.

305

I don't think the polls are fake.  I do think, though, that people haven't done much thinking about it.  I think that if the GOP sticks to its guns--a big if--it will be hard for Romney to win the nomination.

306 I think that if the GOP sticks to its guns--a big if--it will be hard for Romney to win the nomination.

Posted by: Ken at April 20, 2010 04:09 PM (EawMs)

Romney wouldn't have a chance at winning the nomination.  He would be defending RomneyCare, sans federalist caveat, for the whole of any run he tries to make.

307 No, Tattoo. Because you distill every disagreement down to racism on the part of your opponent. And because you're not one quadrillionth as smart as you think you are.

I am smart enough to know that Tom Tancredo is nuts and had no business in the Republican primaries as a presidential candidate. You're too much of a reactionary to distinguish between legitimate criticism of a sweeping blanket statement made about the citizens of one city and calling YOU or anyone who is upset with our current immigration policy a racist.

"Hijack that shit and whine about someone's dig at Miami!"

Who brought up Tancredo? Certainly not me. I just pointed out that he has a habit of engendering animosity among his fellow Republicans by saying out there shit. Apparently, so do his supporters.

308 Romney is the only one running with hard core funding right now.  It's him versus Huck and Ron Paul.

He's going to have some hard core support.  More than he had last time.  A lot of extremely rich democrats are aware that Obama is vulnerable and need to protect their delicious pork gravy.  They know Romney is happy to help in exchange for a lot of power.

Look at the bastards who brought us mortgage disasters and supported Obama.  They also supported Romney.  The old Potomac DVDA.

309 If you scorn efforts to build a wall to prevent more border jumpers, and if you scorn efforts to deport illegals, then you are promoting open borders by default, and the crime that too many of them are engaged in. Consequences and all that.

Are you going to turn this into some kind of a fucking debate? Build a wall, what about the tunnels and smugglers? They can get airplanes, too. What about illegals with children? With family members serving in our military? There are a million different stories, and the best solution is legislation, not ICE raids into communities. What about human trafficking? You do realize that demonizing poor people is not just an asshole thing to do but suicide?

"Consequences and all that."

Rape. Beatings. Wishing them on people. Really?

310 But a border fence wouldn't be a bad thing, right?

I want better enforcement and a better immigration system too, but let's get that fence up if we're spending money on make work projects anyway.

311 if I wish to immigrate to Canada, I will have to show proficiency in either English or French, Canada's official languages. OFFICIAL!!! RACIST AND EXCLUSIONARY!!!

She really does come across as a real bitch, doesn't she?

But Canada does have two lessons for America:

1. Do not allow a separate group of ethnolinguistic troublemakers to divide your country.

-------------------------------------------

I'm just going to point out that in Canada, the French and the Brits / Scots showed up about the same time, but the French Canadians are seen by the Protestant Scots / Brits as secessionist "ethnolinguistic troublemakers."

312 But a border fence wouldn't be a bad thing, right?

Probably not, and maybe we could put sharks with laser beams on their heads in the Rio Grande just for extra measure.

313 >>>Are you going to turn this into some kind of a fucking debate? Build a wall, what about the tunnels and smugglers? They can get airplanes, too.

So?  Shoot them down.  Blow up the tunnels.  Shoot the smugglers.  Your silly arguments, here, have nothing to do with illegals or the fact that the US government has the responsibility to defend US sovereignty.  I bet you use the word "sovereignty" as a smear, too.  Go ahead, call me a "sovereignty-monger".

>>>What about illegals with children? With family members serving in our military?

If someone is an illegal alien, he needs to be deported the minute the government is made aware of his illegal presence.  Period.

>>>There are a million different stories, and the best solution is legislation, not ICE raids into communities.

Legislation?  We have laws.  Illegals break them.  They deserve deportation, not more legislation.  And, deeper than laws, we have the soveriengty of the United States, without which there is no nation. 

>>>What about human trafficking? You do realize that demonizing poor people is not just an asshole thing to do but suicide?

Huh?  Poor people who are illegally present in the US DO NOT BELONG HERE.  Why is that simple truth so difficult for you to understand?  They have countries which they are citizens of, and they need to be shipped out of this country, which they are NOT citizens of and have no right to be here.  No right, at all.

>>>"Consequences and all that."

Rape. Beatings. Wishing them on people. Really?

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 04:24 PM (mHQ7T)

You promote ignoring our law (even though you want more legislation ... whatever you mean by that) to allow the perpetrators of such crime to stay here.  By your actions (and the policies you promote) you shall be judged.

314 You promote ignoring our law (even though you want more legislation ... whatever you mean by that) to allow the perpetrators of such crime to stay here.  By your actions (and the policies you promote) you shall be judged.

It's really easy. Pay a fine and go back to the end of the line. If you've committed a violent crime, and you're in our jails, you're kicked out. Stiff penalties for employers who knowingly break the law. Extra vigilance with respect to welfare fraud.

Even that's a tall order, and I don't expect to ever see our current laws enforced in my lifetime. But this talk of turning the dogs on people is crazy.

And I am not talking about ignoring our laws. I'm asking how you would go about enforcing "rounding them up and herding them into camps, on buses."

315 By your actions (and the policies you promote) you shall be judged.

Oh, and fuck you, lunatic.

316 Hey, I didn't say the fence would work 100%.  So what?

We're pouring retard levels of cash into make work.  This would do some level of good, so let's do that.  I don't mind that it isn't perfect.   Well, I mind but I accept that kind of problem.

317 He is The Precedent.  It is a perfect description of him, since that is what he was elected to be.  That is all he was elected to be.

No, actually, he was elected by 52% of the country as President. Whether you like it or not, that is the way the election turned out, and no one has made the case why he should not be qualified. You say he falls short of constitutional requirements, but nobody has provided that evidence to the courts. One man in the military is being court martialed for refusing to deploy.

318 It's really easy. Pay a fine and go back to the end of the line.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 04:42 PM (mHQ7T)

Do you kick them out?  Or are you saying that they are waiting, at the end of the line, while maintaining their ilegal residency (and work) in the US?  I assume you are thinking of the latter, which is aiding and abetting the illegals.  Your idea of a fine is pathetic.  Why don't you let anyone who steals a car be fined $100 and get to keep driving the car around?  US citizenship is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars (if it were tradable) so the "fine" you propose would likely be even more of a joke.

Let me make it simple you: 

If you are here illegally, you will be thrown out and you will NEVER get US citizenship and you will NEVER be granted legal residency or even a visa of any type.

319 We're pouring retard levels of cash into make work.

Well ok then. If it's a stimulus project, we can just borrow more from China.

320 If you are here illegally, you will be thrown out and you will NEVER get US citizenship and you will NEVER be granted legal residency or even a visa of any type.

You've obviously never dealt with bureaucracy before. I'll leave it at that.

321 Your idea of a fine is pathetic.  Why don't you let anyone who steals a car be fined $100 and get to keep driving the car around?

Because it's really easy to prove someone stole a car. Immigration is a whole other issue.

322 >>>No, actually, he was elected by 52% of the country as President.

No.  He was elected to be Precedent.  Maybe you missed all of that ridiculous "historic" talk? Maybe you missed that ridiculous inauguration?  Well, "historic" is how the white guilters and idiots say "Precedent".

>>>Whether you like it or not, that is the way the election turned out, and no one has made the case why he should not be qualified.

He admitted to having held other citizenships.  Dual citizens are not in the class of natural born citizens.  The Founders didn't even allow for American dual citizens, so there's no way they had included that new class of citizen in their class of "natural born citizen". 

And the word is "eligible" not "qualified".  The Precedent was clearly not qualified, but that is not a legal determination.

>>>You say he falls short of constitutional requirements, but nobody has provided that evidence to the courts. One man in the military is being court martialed for refusing to deploy.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 04:48 PM (mHQ7T)

Evidence is all around.  You just like putting your fingers in your ears and yelling, "La la la ... I can't hear you.  La la la ..."

323 >>>Because it's really easy to prove someone stole a car.

It's easier to determine that someone is not a citizen of the US.  You can't really think that this is reasonable line of debate.  I mean, come on.

>>>Immigration is a whole other issue.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 04:53 PM (mHQ7T)

We aren't talking about immigration. We are discussing illegal aliens.  Do you understand the difference?

324 "
If you are here illegally, you will be thrown out and you will NEVER get US citizenship and you will NEVER be granted legal residency or even a visa of any type."

Of course.  Why the hell would I want criminals to join my country?

This isn't extreme or rude... it's actually extreme and rude to let them have a chance when lots of good folks who never break the law will wait in line and never get in.

Let's think long term.

Let anyone in with an employable strong skill (something we need) who speaks English.  They have some kind of probation period and if they commit a crime they are out forever.  If they have ever committed a crime they are out forever.  But other than that, we let anyone in and don't worry about letting too many in.  Good hard working skilled people are worth their weight.

If your skill is cooking or manual labor, you don't have a skill. 

This could lead to schools in Mexico and elsewhere teaching skills we need for immigration, so they can come here and support their dreams.  America should be a place people want to leave their hell holes to begin the good life of personal responsibility and honest opportunity.

but criminals need to find a different place to move.

325 We aren't talking about immigration. We are discussing illegal aliens.  Do you understand the difference?

As someone married to an immigrant who became an "illegal alien" through a glitch with the system, NO. Sometimes, neither does our government.

326 "Well ok then. If it's a stimulus project, we can just borrow more from China.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 04:49 PM (mHQ7T)"

Well, if we're going to borrow ridiculous amounts of money, and sadly, we will whether or not the fence is built, we might as well get good stuff out of it, like F-22s and fences and such.

I would prefer we stop spending this money and let the states build their own damn fence but I can't invent some fake reality.  I have to live here, in this universe, where we have a glut of money for public works make work, and also have a need for this major public works project, and I'm putting 2 and 2 together.

327 If your skill is cooking or manual labor, you don't have a skill. 

That is not necessarily true. Many of these manual labor jobs have unions. I'm being perfectly serious. In Canada, the guest worker program works very well from what I have seen. Those people have an opportunity to become citizens.

328 This could lead to schools in Mexico and elsewhere teaching skills we need for immigration, so they can come here and support their dreams.

They're way ahead of the game. South Korea comes to mind immediately. But in reality, they're not trying to come here any more. There's customer service jobs in India. Why come here and go to medical school? Let alone building schools in other countries... teaching immigrants what exactly?

329 Let anyone in with an employable strong skill (something we need) who speaks English.  They have some kind of probation period and if they commit a crime they are out forever.  If they have ever committed a crime they are out forever.  But other than that, we let anyone in and don't worry about letting too many in.  Good hard working skilled people are worth their weight.

Posted by: Sentient Nintendo 64 at April 20, 2010 05:01 PM (dUOK+)

We need skilled people and should welcome them.  But, one cannot throw away limits, and immigration policy (as opposed to dealing with illegal aliens, which tattoo cannot seem to distinguish) must have reasonable limits to it.  We do not need skills at the expense of everything else - especially at the expense of the truly unique character of the US (though that is rapidly being killed).  THe US is not just any other country.  The US has always occupied a distinguished place in the world (which is exactly what is under attack by the dems and the amnesty fools) and our system and culture is distinct.  That must be preserved, as the US without it is almost worthless.  But, in general, I agree with your point.

330

Somehow I always knew that Tattoo De Plane and Sentient Nintendo would find each other.

 

331 "My hawt Canadian husband with two Ivy League degrees was forced to go back to Toronto because of a glitch in the system." Did you ever consider that there was no glitch and he was just trying to scrape your crazy ass off at the border? Now go make me some poutine, woman.

332 progressive, I think I'm giving up on the 'character' war over this country, and I think letting in anyone with a provable skill and English skills would be a massive improvement in the direction of that war than what have now.

I don't mind the idea of limits, and I think the language restriction alone would probably limit immigration better than the federal government.

The problem is, democrats like to play games with races and bureaucracies, and I simply trust a simple rule a lot more than some agency.

"

Somehow I always knew that Tattoo De Plane and Sentient Nintendo would find each other.

 

Posted by: Natasha & Bori"

LOL

333 Somehow I always knew that Tattoo De Plane and Sentient Nintendo would find each other.

-----------------------------------

I always saw this comment as going "Raskolnikov!" / "Sharrup you mouth!"

334 "That is not necessarily true. Many of these manual labor jobs have unions. I'm being perfectly serious. In Canada, the guest worker program works very well from what I have seen. Those people have an opportunity to become citizens.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 05:05 PM (mHQ7T)"

I don't want those people.  It's rude to say, but I think they aren't as valuable or worth as much as someone who can weld or fix a computer or perform surgery.

We have robots and kids for shitty jobs.  And we have our own class of dumbasses for those jobs.  I don't even have a problem with those people... but we don't need to import people who would make poverty wages.   They can be poor somewhere else.  

I guess you were being sarcastic, but really, I don't want them.  I do think an easy replacement of our current system would be obviously better in 75% of our country's opinion, and I don't mind if that system isn't the exact one I want.

335 Did you ever consider that there was no glitch and he was just trying to scrape your crazy ass off at the border?

No, because I moved to Canada with him, went through with the interview and moved back with him.

336 I don't want those people.

Ok, then. I'm not really talking about this anymore.

337 @ Jeff

He paid quite a bit to marry me. Not that I charged him. But legal fees, etc.

338 If you don't have my poutine, then I don't want to hear it.

339 "I don't want those people.

Ok, then. I'm not really talking about this anymore.
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane"

Oh, because I'm racist?

LOL.  Look, it's pretty god damn standard for countries to have some level of engineering in who they let into their country.

If this is over the top for you, then you're part of the problem.  No one can speak frankly and honesty about creating a truly free and fair system because of those who want to prove they are the most PC.

My standard is such that the people I don't want have the means to become the people I do want.  So my standard is completely open.  Until they develop a skill and learn the ability to communicate in this society, I don't want them.  Once they have, I do want them.

This is over the top for some because they, not you I realize, but they, want to import government dependency.  That's hideous and must be fought.

Oh, I guess I never want illegal immigrants.  If they knowingly broke the rules, after their prison sentence is completed, they should be shipped to Madagascar.

340 And let's not pretend that the USA is screwed from ever being a place great people want to live.

If we just fix our system, new Americans will come.  We are a beautiful nation with great people.  If it were more federalist, they would probably be able to pick better places to go once here, but they already can.

anyone in Mexico who dreams of being a Texan is probably not all bad, probably actually pretty good.

I know several illegals.  Dishwashers.  They would give their limbs for their kids to have a good life.  They have values.  They will learn English and a skill if that's what it takes instead of hiding from the law and dealing with crooked employers.

To be sure, my plan of never accepting illegals screws over some good people.  But long term, that's the only way laws work.  You can't not enforce a law and expect it to ever work.  They will have to return home and figure out a way while the future learns to respect the law if they dream of  being American.

Long term, this causes so much less suffering.

341 Posted by: Sentient Nintendo 64 at April 20, 2010 06:01 PM (dUOK+)

I'm with you on your last two posts and your general idea.  I just think it's important to keep in mind that it is the individualistic nature of US culture and the notion of our sort of limited federal government (though each is necessary for the other to exist) that makes the US stand out in the world. 

I welcome any immigrant who is skilled or doing a good business, who speaks English and understands that English is the language of the US, and also who demonstrates a deep understanding of the nature of governance in our system (which most American democrats would fail), though I stick with my idea that some limits are always necessary.  And I would severely limit muslim immigration, to a trickle, at most, as islam is a political ideology that is, at its core, in conflict with American values and the American creed.

342 If this is over the top for you, then you're part of the problem.

No, it's because you need people who can do all jobs. I doubt your teenagers want to pick up trash (pays $40 an hour, though) or work in a slaughterhouse or even wash dishes. An immigration system that works must address all this.

Also, I'm not getting any more personal and discussing my experience on this thread. I know the system quite intimately, and it makes it difficult for the very people you prefer. It's a long and wonkish conversation I would rather skip on a thread about why Mitt Romney sucks, which I why I really came.

343 So, now Sentient Nintendo 64 and progressoverpeace have met.

344 So, now Sentient Nintendo 64 and progressoverpeace have met.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 20, 2010 06:31 PM (mHQ7T)

I address ideas.  I agree with the bulk of Sentient's ideas on this - though we still disagree on the boundaries.  We are in complete agreement on illegals.

I happen to agree with a lot of your ideas on other issues.

345 "
No, it's because you need people who can do all jobs. I doubt your teenagers want to pick up trash (pays $40 an hour, though) or work in a slaughterhouse or even wash dishes. An immigration system that works must address all this."

LOL.

This is so out of touch with reality.  I do not want to import cheap labor for shitty jobs.  I want America to be a land of opportunity and bright folks to eliminate as many of those jobs as possible.  I have a robot that mows my fucking lawn.  Two men take out all the trash for my entire neighborhood, both native born.  I have a dishwasher.

We're not headed in the direction of China's labor pool.

You don't need to dig into your personal life.  I don't attack you or need you to prove bona fides.  I just want a fair system for immigration.  I do not want law breakers or more poverty or anyone who is dependent on government handouts.  We're out of money anyway.  We need skilled people who learn to communicate with the rest of our society and obey they laws.  The 'The law says so" should be enough to to keep these people from breaking laws.

I'm sorry nice people break laws.  I don't want them here if they do that, even though it's a tear jerker (not being sarcastic).  I don't want more people who can only take out trash and wash dishes or write poetry.

I want people who can build and accomplish to strive.

And I agree, Mitt Romney sucks.  Don't know how this thread got derailed, but as long as we can agree on that, we're cool.

346 " also who demonstrates a deep understanding of the nature of governance in our system (which most American democrats would fail"

Yeah, that's a good idea.  It's only a good thing to add that to the requirements.

347 (MR)I think that some Republicans believe that what we did in Massachusetts has to be decried in order to justify their criticism of Obamacare.

Uhhhm, No.

I don't need anything to justify my criticism of Obamacare other than my firm and educated evaluation that overall and in it's particulars it is a steaming pile of shit.

Thanks for playing anyway Mitt!

That answer told me everything I need to know about you regarding 2012.

348 The best thing about Romneycare? Its a great example of how Obamacare will fail.

349 I'm sorry nice people break laws.  I don't want them here if they do that, even though it's a tear jerker (not being sarcastic).  I don't want more people who can only take out trash and wash dishes or write poetry.

I want people who can build and accomplish to strive.

The people who build and accomplish to strive come from humble origins. Even my husband, who would be described as humbly middle class and therefore acceptable to you. Our laws right now favor the incredibly wealthy, and if you "write poetry" or anything media-related, then you need references and money. And what you are suggesting, no more service work, means that you have an indentured class of our own citizens, struggling to pay off loans by working menial jobs. Or maybe you mean prison labor. Because robots are expensive, as well. But we'll just stick that on the tab with the fence.

But here's a "tear jerker" for you. You come here for college. You pay a lot to our universities. You're on a student visa. Then you get hired right out of school, and you're on a corporate visa. The economy takes a dive, and you lose your job. That's ok. You came here for opportunity. You're industrious, resourceful. You work freelance. But there aren't enough of those visas. So, you try to find more work and use a visitor's visa. Technically, you're not a tourist; you're an "illegal alien" now. Even if you marry your girlfriend of four years. It's not really a marriage until the government says so. So, they ban you for a few years. If you're wealthy and have a good attorney, you can come back someday. After you start at the beginning of the line waiting for your immigration interview, so that's a couple more years.

The people you like, the people who give you your precious competitive edge, people in skilled technical fields, people with arts backgrounds who might even agree with you politically, educated people who contribute, even though I have no idea what your elitist criteria is (doctors, of course!) You are diluting your talent pool. You're taking from this country exactly what makes it great -- innovation. Because your policies support those who have already made it at the expense of those who have the most to give.

350 For the record, my husband was not unemployed. He makes four times, even freelance, working here than in Canada. When he worked freelance before he was kicked out, he had half a dozen people working for him.

351 Don't know how this thread got derailed

You and Empire of Jeff, progressoverpeace, curmudgeon and FUBAR just loooooooooove Tom Tancredo and hate poor immigrants.

352 tatt, I don't give a shit about Tom Tancredo.  I'm barely aware of his existence and have never really bothered to discuss him much. 

I think the humble people who build this country HAD A FUCKING SKILL.

I'm not asking them to get a PHD.  But 'I can wash a plate' is just fucking useless.  These people simply are beneficiaries of entitlements, and we can't afford it.

No need to moralize.  We can no longer function that way because we are broke.

I want them to have a skill.  Even a humble skill like welding.  I want them to speak english.  It's hard to learn, but any normal person can do it.

And think about it, under my new system, every single person on the planet has the ability to become an American if they work hard enough.  It's fair.  Your spouse can do it, so long as he isn't a criminal.

America doesn't need more of a certain kind of person: criminals and those who have no skills. Sure, some of them would rise up.  Like one out of a thousand.  And those people would probably do even better under my system.

There is no harm done.  Stop worrying about Tom Tancredo.

353 Stop worrying about Tom Tancredo.

I'm the last person worrying about Tom Tancredo. I called him a nut, and my sentiment is shared by Jeb Bush and countless other Republicans. He's gone, anyway. But I although I wash my own dishes, I can see a need in society for people working in kitchens washing thousands of dishes a day. I understand those people have families, and their children get all the benefits of being a citizen and can make it if they work hard. I understand that incentive is what keeps people honest, and the success stories warm hearts across the nation. I am all for rule of law, but I think what you are proposing and other comments in this thread are unrealistic and ignorant of our current reality.

354 Democrats know this party is weak on immigration as an issue. They are relying on you to fuck up and freak out minority voters right before midterms. The comments here, especially the rape/beating/murder ones, should give you pause. You're about to play right into the Dems' hands.

355 I am all for rule of law, but [...]

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 21, 2010 08:43 AM (mHQ7T)

You are not for the rule of law.  You don't care, in the least, about the concept of sovereignty.  In fact, your arguments have been to intentionally ignore law and pretend that "sovereignty" is a hate crime.

356 Ruck Fomney.

357

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