April 17, 2014
— Ace Ron Paul offers his standard defense here, the same defense he's used with respect to, say, his frequent appearances on the Alex Jones show -- he's such a rootin'-tootin' fan of liberty that he does not wish to discriminate against anyone on the basis of their belief system. More speech, not less. More voices, not fewer.
Of course, Ron Paul does not publish criticisms of Ron Paul on his website, nor refutations of his own various claims; if he's published a "Three Cheers for the Fed!" piece, I don't know about it.
So I find his claim that these pieces just keep on making it onto his website and into his newsletters (sometimes above the signature "Ron Paul") merely because of a studious commitment to strong-form non-discrimination against view points to be false and phony.
Obviously he exerts some degree of personal choice and discretion when he chooses to publish crap like this. Obviously he thinks this article has something important to tell us all -- indeed, he claims that 99% of it is "fantastic."
Reason has reprinted almost one-third of the article, or, by their accounting, 30%.
If 99% of the piece was "fantastic," that means that somewhere around 96% of the below must be "fantastic" as well:
The most serious blow of all is the dawning realization everywhere that Washington's crackpot conspiracy theory of 9/11 is false. Large numbers of independent experts as well as more than one hundred first responders have contradicted every aspect of Washington's absurd conspiracy theory. No aware person believes that a few Saudi Arabians, who could not fly airplanes, operating without help from any intelligence agency, outwitted the entire National Security State, not only all 16 US intelligence agencies but also all intelligence agencies of NATO and Israel as well.Nothing worked on 9/11....
For the first time in history low temperature, short-lived, fires on a few floors caused massive steel structures to weaken and collapse. For the first time in history 3 skyscrapers fell at essentially free fall acceleration without the benefit of controlled demolition removing resistance from below.
Two-thirds of Americans fell for this crackpot story. The left-wing fell for it, because they saw the story as the oppressed striking back at America's evil empire. The right-wing fell for the story, because they saw it as the demonized Muslims striking out at American goodness. President George W. Bush expressed the right-wing view very well: "They hate us for our freedom and democracy."
...
Italians were among the first to make video presentations challenging Washington's crackpot story of 9/11. The ultimate of this challenge is the 1 hour and 45 minute film, "Zero." You can watch it here. [You can google this Truther movie if you like -- ace.]
...
It is impossible for anyone who watches this film to believe one word of the official explanation of 9/11.
The conclusion is increasingly difficult to avoid that elements of the US government blew up three New York skyscrapers in order to destroy Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah and to launch the US on the neoconservatives agenda of US world hegemony.
Paul goes on to claim that anyone who finds fault with him for continuing to peddle batshit-crazy conspiracy theories which appeal to infirm and broken minds are guilty of "political correctness."
It's not political correctness.
I know a lot of people on the right really dig conspiracy theories (as well as people on the left), but for people who take a more sober view of events and intentionality, who don't view at as an action-packed thriller movie in which all significant historical events are hatched by a conveniently-detestable Black Hat Villain or Black Hat Organization working the levers and dials of History, this mode of thinking is crude, childish, and deranged.
Human beings are not particularly well-suited for thinking about abstraction. When humans talk about the quantum-level world, we describe in terms of "orbitals" and "spin," even though those things have nothing at all to do with quantum mechanics, and in fact are deeply misleading.
But we need to relate these imponderable abstractions to something that makes sense to us on a gut level, something that we have some tangible appreciation for.
Large events and impersonal social forces are often too big to wrap our minds around. They are largely abstract, and hard for us to process. Conspiracy thinking reduces large impersonal forces to something the average human can comprehend: Human intention, human villainy.
We all understand that some people are just wicked and cruel. And thus wicked, cruel events are most easily digested as originating from something comprehensible -- these Black Hat Villains planned this all.
When horrible things happen, we have emotional reactions, of course. But emotion is geared to be directed at other human beings.
In fact, even when we know exactly who committed a particularly distressing and large evil act -- as in the case of 9/11, or JFK's assassination -- some of us still find the need to postulate larger villainies behind it all.
More emotionally satisfying villainies.
That a great man (so the thinking goes) like John F. Kennedy could have been killed by a failure, a loser, a broken Communist weakling like Lee Harvey Oswald is too much to bear.
Thus, John F. Kennedy must have been murdered by the "dark chatter" of the rightwing in Dallas 1963.
Or even, as Oliver Stone's film suggests: President Lyndon Baines Johnson. After all, who has the power to kill one Warrior King but another Warrior King?
This isn't about political correctness-- it's about an aversion to thinking that frankly isn't "political" at all.
This sort of thinking is Shadow Politics. What it really is a psychological reaction to the incomprehensible and quasi-religious mythmaking.
It may appear political -- it's designed to -- but what it really is a deep psychological drive to make some kind of tangible sense out of a chaotic world that seems too big, and inventing mythic stories to explain it all, scarcely any different than early humans sitting around the campfire and positing that each night, a great dark serpent devoured the sun, and each morning he vomited it back up.
This isn't about political correctness, because it's not even about politics in the first place.
It's really just about deciding who is relatively sane, and whose judgment can be (to some extent) trusted, and who seems to be haunted by the Demons and Ghost-Snakes of 100,000 BC, and who seems, quite frankly, to be crazy.
It's Interesting That He Cites the Italians for Their Perspicacity... because that lets me talk about my favorite Italian word, furbo,, meaning full of cunning and slyness.
"Furbo" is very important in Italian culture. Even more than in our own.
Let's say, for example, I say I believe George Bush that Al Qaeda perpetrated 9/11.
The fact that I'm saying I believe him exposes me to several risks. What if he's lying? If he's lying to me, he's played me for a fool. I would have shown that my furbo is rather weak.
But what if I instantly claim he's lying, instead? Well, then I can never be accused of having had the wool pulled over my eyes by him. My furbo would be strong.
Now, most cultures, of course, respect skeptics and treat the guileless as amiable fools.
But in many cultures, you can only show so much furbo before you begin looking like a fool from the other direction. Not a fool because of what you believe; but a fool because of the incredibly long list of things you don't.
Italy, however, prizes furbo to the extent that it's pretty hard to be considered a fool based on your conspiracy-theorizing. Italy overvalues furbo, and undervalues skepticism about skepticism itself.
Italians pride themselves on their ability to offer a cynical conspiracy-theory counter-explanation for any event they witness. That guy just donated a million lira to an anti-hunger organization? Well, it's probably because he'll actually be selling them services and goods in their anti-hunger efforts. He'll wind up making out like a bandit, believe you me.
Furbo is king in Italy. And there's not nearly enough skepticism about these barely-considered conspiracy theories offered as alt-history explanations for everything. It's very hard to go too far with your furbo in Italy.
The more outrageous your conspiracy theory -- like, for example, that Amanda Knox killed her roommate because she was part of a Satanic cult that collected female genitals for use in summoning rituals -- the more furbo you're showing, and all the better.
I mean, sure there's no evidence against Knox and she appears innocent. But that's just what the Satan Cult would arrange, isn't it? If you believe her when she says "I'm not part of a Satanic cult killing women in ritual sex-orgies," you expose yourself to the risk of having her out-furbo you.
I mean, what if she's actually guilty? There's a one in a million chance of that, and we just can't take that risk.
Now in some quarters in America, furbo is also king. In Ron Paul's world, for example.
But we're not quite as enthusiastic about furbo in America, so the rest of us view this all as the babbling of silly clowns.
Posted by: Ace at
09:42 AM
| Comments (385)
Post contains 1566 words, total size 10 kb.
Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at April 17, 2014 09:47 AM (IN7k+)
Posted by: Lincolntf at April 17, 2014 09:48 AM (ZshNr)
Posted by: Jack Hunter, the Southern Avenger at April 17, 2014 09:48 AM (F58x4)
Posted by: Virginia Socon at April 17, 2014 09:49 AM (+/C3g)
Posted by: AMDG at April 17, 2014 09:49 AM (eFytx)
Posted by: Virginia Socon at April 17, 2014 09:49 AM (+/C3g)
Posted by: Pug Form 4868 at April 17, 2014 09:49 AM (8c12T)
Idiots. Just knuckle-dragging, booger-eating idiots.
Everything accelerates at "free-fall." 9.8m/sec/sec.
It's called gravity, and it's not just a good idea...it's the law.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 17, 2014 09:50 AM (QFxY5)
Posted by: A Certain U.S. Airways Product Demonstrator at April 17, 2014 09:50 AM (8ZskC)
Coordinating the plane crashes into the WTC with the controlled demolitions was a piece of cake. We had the Empire State building wired just in case one of the planes missed its mark.
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 09:51 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 09:51 AM (t3UFN)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 17, 2014 09:51 AM (mJqIh)
Posted by: Virginia Socon at April 17, 2014 09:52 AM (+/C3g)
Posted by: ejo at April 17, 2014 09:52 AM (GXvSO)
Posted by: ejo at April 17, 2014 09:53 AM (GXvSO)
Everything accelerates at "free-fall." 9.8m/sec/sec.
So, 32 feet isn't good enough for you, metric snob?
;-)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (JtwS4)
"Ghost-Snakes" ace? Is this an admission of sorts ala tan lines?
Also isn't fantastic based on fantasy?
Posted by: dudenolongerinsantacruz at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (nGRtn)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (8D0/R)
Posted by: JohnJ at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (A1BvE)
Posted by: Insomniac at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (DrWcr)
Luap Nor will help Roseanne Barr, wearing her Hitler mustache, bake cookies in a gas oven? Oi vey!
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (mJqIh)
Posted by: Ru Paul at April 17, 2014 09:54 AM (8ZskC)
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 09:56 AM (ZkzmI)
Posted by: Countrysquire at April 17, 2014 09:57 AM (eEBON)
Posted by: RWC at April 17, 2014 09:58 AM (fWAjv)
they were struck by the contrails emitted by those airline jets.
this man speaks the truth! Ever wonder why DC is a no fly zone? Because the FEDS don't want contrails to knock over Congress or the WH
Posted by: dudenolongerinsantacruz at April 17, 2014 09:58 AM (nGRtn)
From the linked piece:
Paul's answer to Kmele Foster, I think, was illuminating in a bunch of ways about Paul, about certain tensions within libertarianism, and tensions within any comparatively marginal group that has spent decades tilting at windmills.
This is why Rand Paul has to get in front of this and put some real distance between himself and his father. I still give Rand the benefit of the doubt, and on most issues I prefer him to any of the other plausible 2016 candidates. But libertarianism is still a fringe movement and it can be painted in caricature if it's most closely associated with Ron.
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 09:58 AM (JtwS4)
Posted by: JohnJ at April 17, 2014 09:58 AM (A1BvE)
The science of this was settled long before 9/11.
Posted by: Countrysquire at April 17, 2014 01:57 PM (eEBON)
THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED, BITCHES!!!
/AGW whackjobs
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 09:58 AM (fwARV)
Don't be so naive!
Posted by: Purge Environmental Toxins at April 17, 2014 09:59 AM (wu/TK)
Posted by: Adam at April 17, 2014 10:00 AM (Aif/5)
Perfect name for a certain rapper. Posted by: RWC at April 17, 2014 01:58 PM"
Fun fact. Nasal coffee hurts.
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at April 17, 2014 10:00 AM (knoK7)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 17, 2014 10:00 AM (mJqIh)
Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at April 17, 2014 10:00 AM (LOxq4)
Here's a simple at home test for the simpletons that don't understand structural engineering (nobody here, I am sure).
Take an empty coke can, and stand on it. See how it holds your weight.
Then take a pencil, and while still standing on the can, poke the side of the can.
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 10:00 AM (ZkzmI)
The time for intelligent conversation is obviously over. And by the way, this taints his son as well. Apple, tree and all that.
Posted by: Marcus T at April 17, 2014 10:00 AM (GGCsk)
Posted by: Countrysquire at April 17, 2014 10:01 AM (eEBON)
Those aren't concrete, they're steel structures, typically I-beams covered with fire proofing, which is a type of grout that looks a lot like concrete.
I remember reading that we became fearful of asbestos during the construction of the WTC towers, that the beams in the first 37 or so floors were insulated with asbestos, and then with something else after that.
The theory was that asbestos might have kept the beams from melting and the towers from collapsing.
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 10:01 AM (JtwS4)
Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone at April 17, 2014 10:01 AM (LOxq4)
It's too much of a stretch to believe that a bunch of Saudis could hijack planes through lax security, and know enough about flying them to successfully target buildings.
It's too much of a stretch to believe that a skyscraper filled with petroleum byproducts (carpet and plastic) burns hot enough to weaken structural steel when jet fuel is added to the mix.
But it is perfectly reasonable, and absolutely undeniable, that a huge cabal of government operatives planned and executed the controlled demolition of 3 skyscrapers, in Manhattan, without a single credible witness or leaker.
Posted by: grognard at April 17, 2014 10:01 AM (/29Nl)
Posted by: dudenolongerinsantacruz at April 17, 2014 10:02 AM (nGRtn)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:02 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Citizen X at April 17, 2014 10:03 AM (7ObY1)
Posted by: Fyscyl Clyff at April 17, 2014 10:03 AM (ME3z1)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:03 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 10:04 AM (fwARV)
I guess RP's college curriculum glossed over the whole Stone, Bronze, Iron Age thingy.
Posted by: B at April 17, 2014 10:04 AM (twiRb)
Posted by: SlackAttack at April 17, 2014 10:04 AM (QeSYA)
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 02:04 PM (fwARV)
That's because the Illuminati wanted it that way.
Posted by: Insomniac at April 17, 2014 10:04 AM (DrWcr)
But I definitely think that lack of judgment is certainly a fair topic.
From the article link:
FOSTER: Dr. Paul one last question: Last week, actually on the 10th, at the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity website, a gentleman named Paul Craig Roberts wrote about 9/11 and suggested that the United States government was somehow complicit in that attack. I know in the past you've spoken out forcefully, and criticized folks who have spun such conspiracy theories. He actually did this on your website. Do you have anything to say about that, sir?
PAUL: Well, it's just that people should have a right to express their viewpoints. If you read 99 percent of the article it was a fantastic article. But that doesn't mean that—
FOSTER: Yeah, but that one percent is pretty nasty stuff, Dr. Paul.
PAUL: Yeah, I know, but that doesn't mean that I endorse what he says, obviously! So I think that's a little bit overkill with political correctness. People know my position, I've stated [it] on national television enough times. But Paul Craig Roberts has some very good views on war and civil liberties, and he shouldn't be excluded because he takes this particular position. But that wasn't the thrust of the article. So I think that, to me, the people who overly criticize something like that probably are the ones who have the problem, because—
FOSTER: No.
PAUL: —I think most people realize exactly what my position is. And I think the government—see, the other reason [for] the confusion is, I don't believe in government commissions. I don't believe government commissions ever get to the bottom of anything, whether it's an assassination committee, or a, you know, any type of commission they set up. They're set up to cover the government, to protect the government, and to make sure nobody's guilty of anything.
Posted by: flounder at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: dudenolongerinsantacruz at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (nGRtn)
Posted by: boulder t'hobo at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (6mYGI)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (CMkNk)
In fairness to the conspiracy theorists, we knew of the attack at Pearl Harbor two hours beforehand and did not act.
How is that explainable?
Posted by: prescient11 at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: guy_fawkes at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (Kxz3Y)
Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone but Loves a Good Conspiracy at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (LOxq4)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 10:05 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: Shoot Me at April 17, 2014 10:06 AM (EQcfE)
My understanding is that the original architectural spec for the WTC had sprayed fireproofing specified for the steel members in the key load paths. Because fire doesn't melt steel, but it does cause steel to undergo internal changes that can dangerously reduce its load-bearing capacity.
Unfortunately, the construction phase of the towers overlapped with Hysterical Public Asbestos Panic v.1.0, and the sprayed coating which was being applied did contain asbestos. There was a ludicrous scare about how air passing over the cured, solid fireproofing material might somehow by some magic process allow carcinogenic fibers into the interior air.
So the Port Authority stopped spraying partway through the job while they figured out what to do next. Only part of one tower got asbestos protection on the lower floors, and that (reports vary) may have later been "remediated" away.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:08 AM (noWW6)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 10:08 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 10:08 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:08 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: steevy at April 17, 2014 10:09 AM (zqvg6)
Posted by: boulder t'hobo at April 17, 2014 10:09 AM (6mYGI)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:09 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone but Loves a Good Conspiracy at April 17, 2014 10:10 AM (LOxq4)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:10 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:11 AM (DL2i+)
Posted by: prescient11 at April 17, 2014 10:11 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 17, 2014 10:11 AM (+lsX1)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:11 AM (CMkNk)
I recall having read someone's account of a warehouse fire. Ceiling held up by steel joists.
The fire burned sufficiently hot as to completely destroy all of the non-steel components of the ceiling. So afterward all that was left were the heavily heated steel joists, which had all sagged down in perfect catenary curves under their own weight.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:12 AM (noWW6)
If you are so certain the "Official Story" is correct, (no seriously guys were telling the truth", lets see your detailed anaylsis and rebuttal of the various counter arguments against the official narrative.
---
You know what? You're correct. The American press was so slavishly devoted to George Bush, they would GLADLY cover up any misdeed of his, and never make up stories to try and hurt him.
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 10:12 AM (ZkzmI)
Posted by: SlackAttack at April 17, 2014 10:12 AM (Aif/5)
Posted by: Jenny Hates Her Phone but Loves a Good Conspiracy at April 17, 2014 10:12 AM (LOxq4)
Posted by: AMDG at April 17, 2014 10:12 AM (eFytx)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 10:12 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: NeverEvermore at April 17, 2014 10:13 AM (QZdJj)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 10:13 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:14 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 02:00 PM (ZkzmI)
great , now I've just broke a hip.
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 10:14 AM (m2CN7)
Yes, re the fire melts steel comment. Just how in the hell have we forged tools and weapons since 19 ALWAYS???
That's just a goofy argument... Although I will admit that I didn't think the "melting" of a set of floors would cause an entire structural collapse.
Posted by: prescient11 at April 17, 2014 10:14 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (CJjw5)
Posted by: --- at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: SlackAttack at April 17, 2014 02:04 PM (QeSYA)
Popular Science took all the conspiracy arguments and dismantled them using engineers, architects and scientists.
Point by point, debunked.
But hey, what do engineers know about engineering, right?
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: Lincolntf at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (ZshNr)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:15 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 10:16 AM (8D0/R)
At this stage, I have a lot of problems with Rand because of his stance on Amnesty and support of Mitch McCocksickle.
But if he wanted to do something smart, he would distance himself from his crazy-ass dad with a public statement. <<
This^.
But he will never. It would piss off the people that support his father. Who also support him.
Imagine those dinner table conversations.
Posted by: Marcus T at April 17, 2014 10:16 AM (GGCsk)
Yes we are,
No we're not.
Programmers everywhere.
But emotion is geared to be directed at other human beings.
Or shorthand for a digital crapload of if-then-elseif statements.
Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:16 AM (DL2i+)
Posted by: dudenolongerinsantacruz at April 17, 2014 10:16 AM (nGRtn)
Now the left in this country will not say the obvious the muzzies want the US to no longer exist and most of the population herein dead. Many on the right do to (Bush: religion of peace bs).
These distractions from the truth are dangerous to us all.
Case in point:
http://tinyurl.com/ns236aq
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at April 17, 2014 10:17 AM (hUf/y)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 10:18 AM (8D0/R)
Posted by: SlackAttack at April 17, 2014 10:18 AM (Aif/5)
JJ:
Indeed. and we are violating the pearl harbor rule RIGHT NOW re only so many ships at any specific location. ridiculous.
Posted by: prescient11 at April 17, 2014 10:18 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:18 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:18 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 10:19 AM (JtwS4)
I can get a libertarian bent with Cruz without the fear of nuttiness emerging ala Rand. Sigh.
Then again, the entire Progressive movement is a large scale nuthouse, so there's that too. Imagining the unleashed fury of 3 million unionized federal employees if Ted were elected is none too pleasant either.
May we live in interesting times.
Posted by: GnuBreed at April 17, 2014 10:19 AM (wNF3N)
Posted by: willow at April 17, 2014 10:19 AM (nqBYe)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 17, 2014 10:19 AM (CJjw5)
Posted by: Mama AJ at April 17, 2014 10:20 AM (SUKHu)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:20 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:20 AM (zOTsN)
I vagley remember a disscussion that concluded the fireproofing that was present was blown off or severly degraded in the impact and subsequent explosion. So it may not have mattered if they had used the originally speced asbestos containing fireproofing.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 17, 2014 10:21 AM (tf9Ne)
Smoothly may not be quite the word.
As a practical matter, the internal phase changes in metals can occur as pretty abrupt step functions as temperature changes.
There are famous examples from WWII shipbuilding. The "Liberty ships", the simplified freighters and tankers designed to come off the building ways as fast as possible, had several cases in which ships left port and then more or less immediately cracked their hulls and sank once in the open ocean.
Because the wrong kind of steel had been delivered in the haste of wartime production, and as soon as it encountered the colder seawater, the hull steel went to a brittle phase, and that was all she wrote.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:21 AM (noWW6)
Posted by: --- at April 17, 2014 10:21 AM (MMC8r)
When the Americans decrypted the 14th part of the coded Japanese message using their Purple machine, it ordered the Japanese diplomats to present the message at a specific time. That the Japanese were breaking off diplomatic relations for the time being.
War warnings were sent out to the Canal Zone, Philippines, and Pearl Harbor. Because of atmospherics the Army could not transmit to Pearl and instead sent a coded telegram. So in the middle of the attack the telegram arrives.
Meanwhile the Japanese diplomats had kicked out their staff, did their own translation, and typing. Hence when they finally presented the message, Pearl had already been attacked by the first wave.
I hear someone bleet 'but what about the mini-sub?' USS Ward sinking that submarine. If that report had been acted upon, the battleline would have been more alert. In fact they would have set sail. Without organic air cover. And into ocean waters miles deep. The Japanese had plans in case the fleet was not at anchor. It would have been a massacre. And none of the ships would have been salvaged.
The greatest case of incompetence can be brought against the Philippines, it was night already when Pearl was attacked. But by the following morning, when the Japanese arrived, they found the USAAC planes all lined up like it was still peacetime.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 17, 2014 10:22 AM (mJqIh)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:22 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 10:22 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 17, 2014 10:22 AM (CMkNk)
Posted by: Nip Sip at April 17, 2014 10:22 AM (0FSuD)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 10:23 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: Zombie Meyer Lansky at April 17, 2014 10:23 AM (APuJ7)
Or, at the very least, a clean hoo-ha.
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 02:18 PM (8D0/R)
Yeah, but you never know when a jetliner will crash into it.
Posted by: Insomniac at April 17, 2014 10:23 AM (DrWcr)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:24 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Sandra Fluke at April 17, 2014 10:24 AM (APuJ7)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 10:24 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 17, 2014 10:24 AM (tf9Ne)
Posted by: willow at April 17, 2014 10:24 AM (nqBYe)
http://tinyurl.com/ov4alpf
Posted by: tu3031 at April 17, 2014 10:25 AM (yv+63)
Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 17, 2014 02:24 PM (tf9Ne)
Buckets of water do not render white t-shirts transluscent! GOOGLE IT!!
Posted by: Insomniac at April 17, 2014 10:25 AM (DrWcr)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 10:25 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: Dave Horsfall at April 17, 2014 10:25 AM (APuJ7)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:26 AM (ZPrif)
All the nutters must have never seen a controlled demolition before.
Step one: series of small explosions that can be seen and heard blowing away the load bearing beams.
Step two: Weight of structure collapses on itself.
I guess the WTC demolition team had put silencers on the explosive devices.
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Adam at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (Aif/5)
Posted by: Seems legit at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (Ssscs)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Zklpxk at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (ZKzrr)
Posted by: Chaos the Other Dark Meat at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (oDCMR)
Sure. But "fire" as circumstantially defined as the kind of fire you will get in a high-rise fueled by jet fuel (kerosene) and paper and furniture (and humans) is not generally going to melt structural steel to a molten liquid.
There is a LOT more heat that that being applied to steel in foundry processing. And the Towers embodied many, many foundry batches worth of steel.
What the conspiracy nuts always miss is that isn't necessary for the beams to be melted to a liquid in order for them to fail and collapse. All that's necessary is for them to undergo internal phase changes which reduce their load-bearing capacity below the critical mark. Then they'll fail, perhaps without even being visibly externally affected before they do.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:27 AM (noWW6)
Posted by: willow at April 17, 2014 10:28 AM (nqBYe)
A conference room in a nondescript office building somewhere in northern Virgina where a group of middle-aged men and women are milling about murmuring about kids in college, the weather, weekend plans, the Washington Redskins/Nationals...
One grey haired man stands up at the head of the table and raises his voice just barely above the ambient noise: "Ah, OK, I think we have everyone- Jack can you get the door there? Thanks." "OK, everybody there's coffee in the back if you need it- can I get everybody to take a seat please?" "All right, thanks for coming everyone- this is the kick-off meeting for Operation Thundermug: the objective of this operation is to assassinate the President of the United States..."
Right.
Even if a scene like that did happen the immediate reaction of everyone in that room would be: "WHAT THE F*CK!? I've got a mortgage, two kids in college and a third in braces- I. DO. NOT. NEED. THIS. SH*T!!"
Such things just do not happen.
There is not always some deep dark plan that makes bad things happen- as Freud once said: "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"...
Posted by: Nighthawk at April 17, 2014 10:28 AM (OtQXp)
Posted by: Lincolntf at April 17, 2014 10:28 AM (ZshNr)
So, he cunningly destroys the WTC.
But, despite his cunning, cunningness. Bushhitler failed to implicate Iraq in the WTC attack.
And he failed to plant WMD in Iraq to justify the invasion.
Occam is holding a very sharp piece of metal and telling me I may not have it.
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at April 17, 2014 10:28 AM (9f7ZN)
Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:28 AM (2hTlI)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:28 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 10:29 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:29 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Paultard Nutter at April 17, 2014 10:30 AM (5fSr7)
Some asshole I met at a bar this week was talking about how building 7 was imploded to keep some files they had secret. You know, just in case the building caught fire they had prewired the building to be demolished so the super secret files wouldn't be taken. Fucking retarded.
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 10:30 AM (MNq6o)
Posted by: prescient11 at April 17, 2014 10:30 AM (tVTLU)
Rand had plenty of opportunity to distance himself from the Paul Crazy back during the presidential cycle. He declined to do so.
That's why I think a distancing is not going to come any time soon, if ever. Hell, Rand was playing goofy games with Hannity to get an excuse to come onto the show and campaign for his father.
It doesn't even have to be full throated. It could be as simple as:
Ron Paul is my father and I love him. He's sacrificed a lot to raise his family and did his best to be sure we turned into producers for society, and he's never asked for anything in return except for our love. But sadly, there are some roads he's going down that I cannot follow, and the idea that the US Government had anything to do with the murder of innocents on 9/11 is one of those roads. I don't believe there is any credence to that idea whatsoever.
Not gonna happen though...Rand is trying to fashion a coalition between the Ronulans who'll vote for a Paul Any Paul and disaffected conservatives who aren't going to vote for Christie-types. To distance himself from his father alienates the Ronulans with no clear pickup on the other side.
Posted by: @JohnTant at April 17, 2014 10:31 AM (PFy0L)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 02:29 PM (/FnUH)
Don't forget: Not a single one of those 100-200 men have since come forward to make MILLIONS of dollars spilling their secrets, putting Bush in prison, et al.
Not a single person. No one took cell phone pictures, no emails, nothing.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 10:31 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:31 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 10:31 AM (MNq6o)
You don't have to reach a melting point of the girders. You only have to reach structural failure.
Posted by: bonhomme at April 17, 2014 02:28 PM (2hTlI)
Not to mention how much the buildings must have been weakened by the load of kinetic energy they had to absorb at the moments of impact. I'm looking for a study on that but not finding it.
Posted by: Sharkman at April 17, 2014 10:31 AM (TM1p8)
That's pretty much my take.
When we (Americans) go to war, we should fight like Klingons.
And we Americans should not go to war unless we are willing to fight like Klingons.
That was my quarrel with 43's Iraq policy; not that he invaded Iraq, but that he was such a pussy about it.
Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at April 17, 2014 10:31 AM (9f7ZN)
Not just files, also the corpses of firefighters who had been infected with the extra-terrestrial black oil virus.
I liked that movie, too.
Posted by: HR at April 17, 2014 10:32 AM (ZKzrr)
Yes, the engineering inquest suggested that this had happened, at least in the aircraft impact zones. Note that the forces involved were way beyond the originally postulated design-basis worst-case aircraft impact.
"So it may not have mattered if they had used the originally speced asbestos containing fireproofing."
A non-asbestos formulation had been applied later on. That was the stuff which was spalled off or knocked off by the impact.
Professional opinions vary as to whether the original asbestos material would have performed better with regard to impact forces. One guy who had worked with both says he thinks the asbestos would have stayed put more reliably. Unfortunately, no one will ever know for sure.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:33 AM (noWW6)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 10:34 AM (JtwS4)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:34 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Lea at April 17, 2014 10:34 AM (lIU4e)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:35 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Tom Servo at April 17, 2014 10:35 AM (8Fa5Z)
Do you ever think about things like that? Like, how so many thousnds of pounds of explosives were secreted inside these buildings, placed on the central pillars, wired, etc., without anyone wondering why there were so many guys in the building putting bricks of unknown composition on the pillars?
----
Technically, Ace, they wouldn't need thousands of pounds of C4 to collapse the building, just enough to take out 3 or 4 floors. The weight falling from above would collapse the other floors below.
Of course, the trick is flying the plane into the building at exactly the right height to match the floors were our conspirators have secreted the explosives. Or, perhaps there is a rational explanation for the mass illusion of the planes flying into the buildings at all.?
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 10:35 AM (ZkzmI)
"elements of the US government blew up three New York skyscrapers in order to destroy Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah"
Sounds like a pretty good trade-off to me - as long as the buildings we are talking about are in Turtle Bay.
Posted by: West at April 17, 2014 10:35 AM (1Rgee)
N'jaila Rhee þ@BlasianBytch 3h
Angry about the #creepywhiteguys tag? Talk to your peers about how they sexualize and harass POC like its a god given right.
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 02:34 PM (ZPrif)
When Jay-Z no longer features booty-shaking, sexualized women of color, I'll care. Until then, fuck off and die in a fire.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 10:36 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 10:36 AM (MNq6o)
Yeah, Ron Paul has always been that guy who will start talking and I'll kind of be nodding and then, bam. Crazy town.
-------
Ron Paul is kind of like a big bucket of delicious vanilla ice cream with a hidden elephant turd in the middle of it.
Posted by: @JohnTant at April 17, 2014 10:36 AM (PFy0L)
Posted by: Nip Sip at April 17, 2014 10:36 AM (0FSuD)
Not to mention how much the buildings must have been weakened by the load of kinetic energy they had to absorb at the moments of impact. I'm looking for a study on that but not finding it.
--
Sharkman, check into the collision of the B25 into the Empire State building. Of course, that building had much more stone.
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 10:36 AM (ZkzmI)
Ace, substitute "Religious" for "Conspiracy" (I don't know how to work the HTML and I dread the barrel), and I think you've just restated your atheism.
Me personally, after 9/11 I believe anything. "We live in interesting times."
Posted by: Kate58 at April 17, 2014 10:37 AM (oLZsm)
It is possible to see puffs of dust and smoke coming out the sides of the Towers as they are collapsing. The conspiracists say these are demo charges detonating.
They don't ever mention the physics of a sequentially collapsing building, and what happens in between two floors slamming together: a spike in internal pressure in the space between those floors, blowing dust and smoke out the side of the building.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:37 AM (noWW6)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 10:37 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Nip Sip at April 17, 2014 10:38 AM (0FSuD)
Or just sag enough to pull the ?longitudinals? away from the wall + core design of the WTC which the Pop Sci/Mech? clearly shows happening.
Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:38 AM (DL2i+)
Posted by: Adam at April 17, 2014 10:38 AM (Aif/5)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:38 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 10:38 AM (SY2Kh)
You know what's fucked?
Remember back to the debates. Luap Nor said 9/11 happened because "WE WERE OVER THERE!" He was calling it blowback against interventionism and if we would only mind our own business no one would hurt us ever.
But then am I to understand Luap Nor thinks a theory that the US Government was behind 9/11 is "fantastic?" OK, then 9/11 didn't actually happen because WE WERE OVER THERE, did it?
Trying to follow this old coot's reasoning is like trying to follow a constipated dog in a fire hydrant factory.
Posted by: @JohnTant at April 17, 2014 10:39 AM (PFy0L)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at April 17, 2014 10:39 AM (XyM/Y)
Posted by: Democrats Hate White People at April 17, 2014 10:40 AM (ZPrif)
For some on-topic whimsy, the Mitchell and Web skit on how the moon landing was faked is hilarious:
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 10:40 AM (JtwS4)
Posted by: Big T Party at April 17, 2014 10:40 AM (rk+sM)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 02:29 PM (/FnUH)
They were in on it! Duh!?
Posted by: flounder at April 17, 2014 10:41 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:41 AM (2hTlI)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 17, 2014 10:41 AM (P1WNR)
***
So we can add fluid dynamics as well as metallurgy in the "Ignorant Of" column for these clowns.
Posted by: B at April 17, 2014 10:41 AM (twiRb)
Posted by: Romeo13 at April 17, 2014 10:41 AM (84gbM)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:42 AM (zOTsN)
I lived in P.G. County during the DC Sniper attacks. It was enough to know that at any point you could die while pumping gas.
The idea that you had to make September 11th SCARIER by *making* the buildings fall is crazy. Slamming airplanes into buildings is enough, but conspiracy theorists want more.
Posted by: Shoot Me at April 17, 2014 10:43 AM (EQcfE)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 10:43 AM (8D0/R)
Uh, last I looked at the official national crime statistics from the Department of Justice, white women were far more likely to experience sexual violence from "men of color" than it is for "women of color" to experience sexual violence from white men.
But of course this crap is via Twitter, with all of the strong commitment to factual accuracy that is thus implied.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:43 AM (noWW6)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 10:44 AM (t3UFN)
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 02:37 PM (noWW6)
The visual they can attempt to explain away but the sound of the sequential explosions in a controlled demolition cannot be muted. They of course occur prior to the collapse. Again, the collapse is the only thing that resembles a controlled demolition because its exactly what happens in a controlled demolition. But one does not happen without the other.
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 10:44 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:44 AM (zOTsN)
If they meant to start a war in the middle east and seize power their, they did a very poor job of what they managed to accomplish and they only went partway. What happened?
Secondly, can anyone believe that a Republican government could've hidden this conspiracy given all the Democrats who work for the various bureaucracies and who would've been dying to tell someone about it?
I do have to admit I have questions about the towers collapse.
1) did it really get hot enough to melt the girders?
2) it's very interesting that the towers were evacuated (as much as they could be) just before the towers collapsed.
Serendipity? Fate? I don't know but we can't deny those planes flew into the towers no matter who was flying them and the cascade of events flows from there.
What purpose would GBush have to do this since the Bushes themselves are Pro Saudi and GB did as much as possible to protect the Saudis and Islam from being the focus of anger.
If they wanted to ignite a war in the ME, why would they leave out the Saudis? They're 60% of the problem over there.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Waiting For SMODOT) at April 17, 2014 10:44 AM (JS0vr)
Posted by: Nip Sip at April 17, 2014 10:45 AM (0FSuD)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 10:45 AM (SY2Kh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch
Mitchell and Web are effing great. Have you seen any Armstrong and Miller? Great stuff with a lot of conservative leanings. Love their teacher advertisements...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjUiJFuXYQ
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 10:45 AM (MNq6o)
I remember when Chicago's McCormick Place - the first one, that is - burned to the ground. That was in January 1966. The structure was a Miesian, naked-steel construction; when all the paper and plastic in the exhibition hall burned, the heat softened the beams to the point that they twisted like taffy under their own weight.
But, no! Fire can't melt steel!
Posted by: Brown Line at April 17, 2014 10:45 AM (VrNoa)
Set the charges, drop the towers, blame jihad. Simple.
But let's hijack 3 planes and fly them into buildings that were wired anyway. Uh huh.
Posted by: grognard at April 17, 2014 10:46 AM (/29Nl)
"...so the rest of us view this all as the babbling of silly clowns."
I read a recent article describing the political relationship of Rand and Ron Paul as somewhat akin to that of company president (Rand) and CEO (Ron). All I want to know is how much of this insane babbling does the son of the silly clown believe, and how much influence does the silly, babbling clown exercise over his son.
As an aside, libertarianism as a political philosophy would make more of a positive impression if it wasn't suffused with antisemitism, neo-isolationism, and batshit crazy conspiracy theories.
Posted by: troyriser at April 17, 2014 10:46 AM (O66NZ)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:46 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Romeo13 at April 17, 2014 10:46 AM (84gbM)
Posted by: Buzz Aldrin[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:46 AM (2hTlI)
I do have to admit I have questions about the towers collapse.
1) did it really get hot enough to melt the girders?
Gosh, if only there were a 200-post comment thread that addressed this in meticulous detail.
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (JtwS4)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (P1WNR)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (8D0/R)
Again, the collapse is the only thing that resembles a controlled demolition because its exactly what happens in a controlled demolition. But one does not happen without the other.
---
Spot on. Controlled demolition is not done by blowing out every floor, but only certain structural members on certain floors. Gravity is the primary mover. Buildings naturally fall straight down, unless some structural member prevents it.
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (ZkzmI)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: I wear a Ron Paul T-shirt to my job at Starbucks at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (pmsMR)
1) did it really get hot enough to melt the girders?
2) it's very interesting that the towers were evacuated (as much as they could be) just before the towers collapsed.
They didn't have to melt, just weaken. And yes. It did.
It's not interesting that the WTC employees followed their fire drill procedures and evacuated the building. That the evacuation was still ongoing when the towers came down isn't a conspiracy.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 10:47 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: Nip Sip at April 17, 2014 10:48 AM (0FSuD)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:49 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Lizzy at April 17, 2014 10:49 AM (IdOTf)
The more extreme among the Troofers claim that there were no planes.
They were "holograms".
Not making this up.
Posted by: torquewrench at April 17, 2014 10:49 AM (noWW6)
2) it's very interesting that the towers were evacuated (as much as they could be) just before the towers collapsed.
1 - explained beyond a reasonable doubt a million times.
2 - tell that to the firefighters and cops,
Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:50 AM (DL2i+)
My 93-year-old other thinks someone broke into her apartment and stole her favorite plastic-handled steak knives - and nothing else.
The WTC conspiracy types? Same thing.
Posted by: West at April 17, 2014 10:50 AM (1Rgee)
Posted by: YourPoopyPants at April 17, 2014 10:50 AM (Y/HG5)
Posted by: Pug Form 4868 at April 17, 2014 10:50 AM (8c12T)
Posted by: Naes1984 at April 17, 2014 10:50 AM (LiHKo)
2) it's very interesting that the towers were evacuated (as much as they could be) just before the towers collapsed."
Are you kidding me with this? Who told you girders melted? I don't think anyone has ever suggested that. They were weakened. HUGE difference.
And yeah, it sure is interesting that people evacuated a burning building. You sure don't see that everyday. Usually people just stay in the burning building and hope for the best.
Posted by: Shonuff at April 17, 2014 10:51 AM (yXRXV)
Posted by: navybrat at April 17, 2014 10:51 AM (JgC5a)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 17, 2014 10:51 AM (P1WNR)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:51 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Homeless Ginsu Chef at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (ZkzmI)
Posted by: Buzz Aldrin
did he punch some asshole moon truther in the nose when asked about that? Like a really young guy? and laid him out
Yes. And he was 72 years old at the time, and not more than 5'7" or 5'8" and the young goon was well over 6'.
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (JtwS4)
Some of the conspiracy people just do it for fun just to troll people, its entertainment for them.
The others who actually believe that crap are mind boggling, there is numerous videos of 2 huge jet fuel laden aircraft flying into buildings at 500 miles per hour. And yet they dismiss that, must have been explosives.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (hUf/y)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (8D0/R)
Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (2hTlI)
did he punch some asshole moon truther in the nose when asked about that? Like a really young guy? and laid him out
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 02:49 PM (zOTsN)
yes http://youtu.be/wptn5RE2I-k
Posted by: The Dude at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (bStrg)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 10:52 AM (t3UFN)
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 02:47 PM (fwARV)
=======
Which is why, when I get depressed thinking about the souls lost that day and particularly the 343 firefighters, I console myself by remembering that 9/11 was actually one of the FDNY's finest hours:
2700 people were lost, but they saved over 50,000.
Posted by: Nighthawk at April 17, 2014 10:53 AM (OtQXp)
Posted by: RWC at April 17, 2014 10:53 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: Mr. Dave at April 17, 2014 10:53 AM (bX7ov)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:54 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 17, 2014 10:54 AM (5tpzF)
Yeah, framing Sadam turned out being harder than they thought. Tough dot to connect there. And I guess they also forgot to steal all the oil in the middle east.
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 10:54 AM (MNq6o)
Posted by: eleven at April 17, 2014 10:54 AM (GXZgZ)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 17, 2014 10:54 AM (P1WNR)
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 10:54 AM (m2CN7)
I find it flabbergasting that the party who gave Obama the best online campaign apparatus in history couldn't make a web page for health care.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 17, 2014 02:54 PM (5tpzF)
I don't. Campaigning and governing aren't the same. The health care page actually had to DO something. The campaign sites just had to take money and look pretty.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 10:55 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 10:55 AM (2hTlI)
The only reason they *were* evacuated to that degree is because Rick Rescorla disobeyed orders to "shelter in place" and got his people the hell out of there.
Posted by: grognard at April 17, 2014 10:55 AM (/29Nl)
Posted by: Romeo13 at April 17, 2014 10:55 AM (84gbM)
One of the English kings (maybe Richard The Lionhearted?) was asked how to deal with the Muslims, and his answer was: "With a sword in the gut."
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 17, 2014 10:55 AM (QFxY5)
Posted by: Homeless Ginsu Chef at April 17, 2014 02:52 PM (ZkzmI) "
Next time I see my mom, I'll tell her it was you, and that you confessed.
Thanks for the laugh.
Posted by: West at April 17, 2014 10:55 AM (1Rgee)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 10:56 AM (zOTsN)
Actually, George Lucas and Dreamworks created the plane crashes on a Hollywood backlot with CGI and animation.
All to help out their hero, George Bush. And the networks, all secret neo-cons, knowingly broadcast the film as live television for the same reason.
Posted by: Paultard Fan Club Member #1 at April 17, 2014 10:56 AM (ZkzmI)
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 02:54 PM (m2CN7)
under-rated flick
Posted by: The Dude at April 17, 2014 10:56 AM (bStrg)
"it's very interesting that the towers were evacuated (as much as they could be) just before the towers collapsed."
For that, you can thank the first attempt to blow up the WTC, in 1994. As part of the response, evacuation plans were put into place, and drills were held regularly. Simple improvements helped a lot: putting glow-in-the-dark strips on the stairs, mandating that each office have an evacuation officer whose job it was to make sure everyone got out; having "sleds" available for the disabled; and encouraging people to keep a flashlight in their desk. The rule was: if you hear something wrong, head for the stairwell and get out. Those simple changes saved thousands of lives that day.
Also, it was relatively early in the workday, so the towers didn't contain nearly as many people as they would have had a couple of hours later.
So, sorry: no conspiracy. Just some thought and good planning.
Posted by: Brown Line at April 17, 2014 10:56 AM (VrNoa)
Posted by: Lizzy at April 17, 2014 10:56 AM (IdOTf)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 10:58 AM (RWOcS)
Posted by: Naes1984 at April 17, 2014 10:58 AM (LiHKo)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 10:58 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 17, 2014 10:58 AM (P1WNR)
I think that the national security apparatus can, occasionally, keep a secret. But the topic has to be something that is almost universally approved of.....like the Glomar Explorer's recovery of K-129. But even that leaked out eventually.
Imagine how many Americans would have to be involved to pull 9/11 off, then imagine how many of them would be disgusted by it and run screaming to the nearest congressman.
It just boggles the mind that any sentient being could seriously entertain this idea.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 17, 2014 10:59 AM (QFxY5)
Posted by: Adam at April 17, 2014 10:59 AM (Aif/5)
Posted by: Sheriff of White Privilege at April 17, 2014 10:59 AM (DrWcr)
Posted by: Patsy at April 17, 2014 10:59 AM (V5Moj)
Damned straight!
Those Jooos are sneaky and have their claws in everything.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 17, 2014 11:00 AM (QFxY5)
---------------------------------------
White Privilege vs. PIV...only one leaves. Whom?
Posted by: YourPoopyPants at April 17, 2014 11:00 AM (Y/HG5)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 11:00 AM (ZPrif)
***
Exactly. I've argued this before with a co-worker. People seem to think evacuating a building the size of the Towers was like strolling out of a Wal-Mart when a fire alarm goes off.
Tell you Truthers what: Hike your ass up the 100th f'in floor of a building and then run down it quickly. Easy, huh? Now do it again with hundreds and hundreds of people of all sizes and fitness levels and all of them losing their collective shit. Now add tons of smoke and debris.
Idiots.
Posted by: B at April 17, 2014 11:01 AM (twiRb)
Posted by: bonhomme[/i][/b][/s][/i][/b][/s] at April 17, 2014 11:01 AM (2hTlI)
Google the Popular Mechanics article on the subject.
And quite being a retard.
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 11:01 AM (MNq6o)
Posted by: ace at April 17, 2014 02:12 PM (/FnUH)
Simply put: metal has a plastic phase between its solid phase and its molten phase. Watch a blacksmith forging a red-hot horseshoe on an anvil to see this in action.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at April 17, 2014 11:01 AM (HCEgT)
Posted by: Dr Spank at April 17, 2014 11:01 AM (P1WNR)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 11:02 AM (t3UFN)
Posted by: Romeo13 at April 17, 2014 11:02 AM (84gbM)
Posted by: tasker at April 17, 2014 11:02 AM (RJMhd)
Posted by: Naes1984 at April 17, 2014 11:03 AM (LiHKo)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 11:04 AM (DmNpO)
One of the heroes on that dark day.
http://rickrescorla.com/
Posted by: Buzzsaw at April 17, 2014 11:04 AM (tf9Ne)
But then all the foliage in the Washington DC metropolitan park system would smell like a tossed salad.
Posted by: Commissioner Gordon at April 17, 2014 11:04 AM (B3lP0)
Posted by: ejo at April 17, 2014 11:05 AM (GXvSO)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 11:05 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: tasker at April 17, 2014 11:05 AM (RJMhd)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 11:06 AM (DmNpO)
Posted by: rickb223 at April 17, 2014 11:06 AM (8D0/R)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 11:07 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Commissioner Gordon at April 17, 2014 03:04 PM (B3lP0)
You went there?
You really went there!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 17, 2014 11:07 AM (QFxY5)
Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 17, 2014 11:07 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Dr Spank
And "pull it" has never been a term used in demolition. The fire chief said he was going to "pull his firefighters from the building" and the building owner said, fine "pull it" and was refering to the firefighters and not "pull the building down" because no one fucking says that. And no audio of the unmistakable and loud BOOM - BOOM - BOOM - BOOM - BOOM of a building being imploded. So much retard it's hard to know where to start.
Posted by: Dang at April 17, 2014 11:07 AM (MNq6o)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 11:08 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Little Paulie Krugman at April 17, 2014 11:08 AM (32Ze2)
Posted by: Commissioner Gordon at April 17, 2014 11:10 AM (B3lP0)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 02:58 PM (RWOcS)
You could read the National Institute of Standards and Technology's report or the summary thereof. Basically a fire was started from the debris from the twin towers . These fires were ongoing through about 10 or 11 stories if I remember correctly. The fires were mostly fueled by the furnishings which actually burn hotter than the jet fuel. All the fire supression systems were inoperable. The fires lasted over seven hours. The top floor of the floors on fire finally had structure failure which then caused the house of cards collapse. Also of note is that the collapse was not straight down but started at the corner of the building.
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 11:11 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 17, 2014 11:11 AM (DmNpO)
Arrampicarsi sugli specchi
Which literally means "climbing on mirrors".
Which is another way to say you are making up explanations for something that can't be known.
There is no way Ron Dumbshit can claim he know the real reason for 9-11. He has no objective, demonstrably true proof.
On the other hand, I was there. I know what I saw with my own two eyes. I was closer than I wanted to be.
So it is not "furbo". Furbo can't be king when you simply "avere le pigne en testa".
You are just a ciuccio and exposed for the world to see.
Posted by: Marcus T at April 17, 2014 11:11 AM (GGCsk)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 11:12 AM (t3UFN)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 11:12 AM (zOTsN)
Turn on FOX NEWS: Pres Obama likely to be in the briefing room 3:15 - topic not stated but Ukraine?
***
Also likely to be on time for that: Bigfoot and the Chupacbra....
Posted by: B at April 17, 2014 11:13 AM (twiRb)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 11:13 AM (t3UFN)
Thanks for taking the heat off me.
(and I was thinking "weakened" when I said "melted" the girders.)
And those were just questions and not a sign of thinking that it wasn't an attack or that it was done by the government.
Now you want to talk about the Oklahoma City bombing, well . . . .
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Waiting For SMODOT) at April 17, 2014 11:14 AM (JS0vr)
Posted by: NeverEvermore at April 17, 2014 11:14 AM (QZdJj)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 11:14 AM (RWOcS)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 17, 2014 11:14 AM (t3UFN)
Posted by: thunderb also dickless rapper at April 17, 2014 11:15 AM (zOTsN)
Posted by: Sharkman at April 17, 2014 11:16 AM (TM1p8)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 17, 2014 02:22 PM (mJqIh)
The only one to take the war warning seriously was Admiral Hart of the Asiatic Fleet. He had his surface ships dispersed and in southern Philippines with only submarines and depot ships remaining in Manila Bay.
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Snow! AHHHHHHHH! at April 17, 2014 11:17 AM (hLRSq)
But, the U.S. government is incompetent, how could they pull it off? Because the masses are easily duped and controlled.
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 03:14 PM (RWOcS)
heh.
Posted by: polynikes at April 17, 2014 11:17 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Lady in Black, on iPhone & not responsible for typos at April 17, 2014 11:18 AM (Mfm28)
Posted by: JB at April 17, 2014 11:19 AM (K/J3u)
Posted by: Naes1984 at April 17, 2014 11:19 AM (LiHKo)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 11:21 AM (RWOcS)
I usually find Family Guy horribly unfunny, but I have to give them credit for the Rush Limbaugh episode, where Lois said the pompous, unfunny dog Brian always took the opposite position from everyone else just to make himself seem smarter.
To me, that's your average conspiracy theorist. "Sure, you believe we really landed on the moon! Because you're just a stupid sheeple. Me, on the other hand? Way above that simplistic thinking!"
I don't know if that's exactly furbo or not, but I think it's a good reason we rightfully hate these twits. But as for arguing with them, I'd refer you to Ace's excellent line about not being able to use reason and logic to argue someone out of a position that reason and logic never led them to in the first place.
Posted by: Ted K. at April 17, 2014 11:23 AM (FJYfm)
Posted by: RWC at April 17, 2014 11:26 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 11:27 AM (RWOcS)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 11:29 AM (RWOcS)
The official story does not make sense.
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 03:21 PM (RWOcS)
Only because you lack a fundamental knowledge of engineering, physics, architecture and thermodynamics.
All of this, up to and including WTC7 has been explained over and over again by those whose lives have been spent studying the phenomena witnessed on 9/11.
If you choose to remain ignorant, that's on you. The information - factual, peer-reviewed, empirical information - is out there for you.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 11:29 AM (fwARV)
Is it possible that this government would lie to you?
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 03:27 PM (RWOcS)
Yes.
In this case, however, the literal tons of evidence state, without equivocation, that the 'government' story is in fact, what happened.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 11:31 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: Paultard at April 17, 2014 11:34 AM (Aif/5)
Posted by: eleven at April 17, 2014 11:34 AM (GXZgZ)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 11:36 AM (RWOcS)
There are a few questions, though, that those who hold the standard college model of conspiracy are unable to answer. One of those questions is: "If there is no such thing as a conspiracy then why is conspiracy illegal?"
What is the legal definition of a conspiracy? An agreement between two or more persons to engage jointly in an unlawful or criminal ac, or an act that is innocent in itself bu becomes unlawful when done by the combination of actors.
Under that definition:
Was 911 a conspiracy? Yes.
Was the Boston Marathon bombing a conspiracy? Yes.
Is/was Fast and Furious a conspiracy? Yes
Is the IRS treatment of conservatives a conspiracy? Yes.
It is not unsophisticated to view an actual conspiracy as a conspiracy.
And yes the troofers are loons.
Posted by: [/i] [/s] [/u] [/b] An Observation at April 17, 2014 11:37 AM (ylhEn)
Is it hard to fathom that the republican party would lie to you?
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 03:36 PM (RWOcS)
Again, no. And also again, in this case, they didn't.
And - irony alert - you're the one who's been conned and duped and are too invested. You have too much to lose by admitting that George Bush didn't rig the towers to explode.
In my experience, it is impossible to reason someone out of a position they were never reasoned into in the first place. You lack a single shred of evidence to support your theory. It's purely emotional, and without reason.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 11:38 AM (fwARV)
"it's very interesting that the towers were evacuated (as much as they could be) just before the towers collapsed."
My brother in law worked in the second tower. When the first tower was hit the management monkeys in his office were actually telling people to stay calm, stay where you are, don't panic.
He stood up and announced, "this is an excellent time to panic. Follow me." And led his coworkers to safety.
Posted by: richard mcenroe at April 17, 2014 11:38 AM (XO6WW)
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 17, 2014 11:40 AM (659DL)
Posted by: eleven at April 17, 2014 11:42 AM (GXZgZ)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 11:46 AM (RWOcS)
Personally, practically, and scientifically, I believe with six sigma probability that the twin towers and the Pentagon was attacked by Al Queda terrorists and that the Twin Towers collapsed because of it.
My practical knowledge is witnessing the aftermath of a fire involving a flat tar roof. The steel girders were twisted into pretzels just as if a giant had done it. This is despite the fire dept. spraying the building with massive doses of water.
One last thing, steel conducts heat pretty well, thus a hot spot in one part of the tower will affect the temperature of steel considerably farther from the source of heat. If the steel was hot enough to melt in one area, a far greater amount probably was annealed enough to lose its strength.
Metallurgy regarding steel is a pretty settled science and engineering fact. Building construction of tall buildings relies on using a material such as steel that is relatively lightweight and flexible skeleton. Just like if your femur was crushed, gravity will cause you too to fall if you are upright. Once the skeleton of steel was compromised and began to collapse, the remaining structure was unable to handle the sudden force due to gravity of the upper floors collapsing.
Posted by: wg at April 17, 2014 11:46 AM (S/u7d)
I flag-waved for Bush and the republicans for years. I'm not going to do it in the name of solidarity to a bullshit cause. That doesn't make me liberal. That doesn't make me Ron Paul.
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 03:46 PM (RWOcS)
No, it just makes you wrong on this one single issue.
Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 17, 2014 11:49 AM (fwARV)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 17, 2014 11:54 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Mega at April 17, 2014 11:56 AM (hHFOx)
Posted by: rickl at April 17, 2014 11:59 AM (zoehZ)
I can't help it.
"Reinforced Steel"
Do tell me, WTF is "Reinforced Steel"? Is it like reinforced with MORE steel? Or titanium? Or neutronium? Or magic spells from another continuum (that's my guess)?
And WHY would it be reinforced? Is steel not strong enough? If so, then why did they not just use more steel, until the structure was strong enough? And then, why 'reinforce' it if it was strong enough - were the designers expecting that the force of gravity at the earth's surface in the vicinity of Manhattan was going to increase dramatically?
Just that one phrase, "reinforced steel", repeated over and over, proves to anyone who has the slightest clue about engineering that TIG knows nothing whatsoever about which he speaks - and that is usually the strong basis for the label "consipracy nut" - a strong dose of ignorance mixed with an insane desire to believe anything other than the obvious.
Posted by: West at April 17, 2014 12:01 PM (1Rgee)
Posted by: Internet Tough Guy at April 17, 2014 12:03 PM (RWOcS)
Posted by: Patrick Henry, the 2nd at April 17, 2014 12:25 PM (XoheX)
So you're Just Asking Questions (TM), huh?
Yeah, people get worked up about things they stand to gain nothing from. That's totally how humans work.
If you're a genuine idiot, I'm sorry that you're disillusioned*, but you're just proving Ace's point about people trying to make sense of the world they can't comprehend.
* - Nah, not really. It's dumb to believe so much in a political party. But now you're projecting you're belief in one party on the rest of us.
Posted by: Shoot Me at April 17, 2014 12:31 PM (EQcfE)
Posted by: neal at April 17, 2014 12:43 PM (X2BAI)
Posted by: Brewdog at April 17, 2014 01:13 PM (ZgUuK)
<i>Why don't people want to go there with 9/11? </i>
Because they aren't stupid?
Or maybe because they were physically there, in NY or DC (BTW, funny how the conspiracy nuts never mention the pentagon), and know people who were physically there, who witnessed planes flying into towers, which subsequently collapsed.
Plane hits, tower collapses. Cause and Effect.
Posted by: Lea at April 17, 2014 01:25 PM (lIU4e)
Posted by: Ted K. at April 17, 2014 01:33 PM (FJYfm)
Posted by: chuckR at April 17, 2014 02:05 PM (w6bKm)
Posted by: Riding shotgun for the Texas Rangers at April 17, 2014 02:51 PM (1mtKP)
Posted by: Heltau at April 17, 2014 02:52 PM (gODbg)
Posted by: Joshua at April 17, 2014 08:14 PM (RRdmb)
Posted by: DrEvil at April 18, 2014 12:57 AM (SbNe2)
Posted by: mkf at April 18, 2014 05:47 AM (j7UyF)
Ace never lets me down.
Posted by: ZombieHunterThompson at April 18, 2014 08:51 AM (uVcun)
Posted by: TANSTAAFL at April 18, 2014 09:44 AM (tqAT4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_neckties
Posted by: TANSTAAFL at April 18, 2014 09:45 AM (tqAT4)
WTC7's collapse
was due to:
#1: WTC1 debris hitting it.
#2: Unfought fires on multiple levels.
#3: Weakening of the steel in the fires.
#4: A gravity induced global collapse resulting in total structural failure.*
*from the interwebs
Posted by: TANSTAAFL at April 18, 2014 09:52 AM (tqAT4)
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Posted by: flounder at April 17, 2014 09:45 AM (Kkt/i)