1 I had an opportunity a few years back to do a crawl through of a B-17. What struck me was how small it was inside. I guess I had watched to many war movies and thought it was a lot bigger.

2

I went through a B-17 and a B-24 at Oshkosh when I was a teenager.  Freaking small inside.  I think the Lib model with the nose turret was a 'J', but I may be wrong.

That's a lot of mission markers.

3 Tail gunner, loneliest job on the aircraft? Dave, I think your uncle had the worst job on the B-17G. Hats off to him.

4 One of the most significant memories in my life was when I was first married to my bride. I was visiting her home town in Iowa. My father in law was a WWII vet, he served on a B-17 as radio man. There was a restored B-17 over in Waterloo. I begged him to come with me as I wanted to see. He protested, he said he never wanted to set foot in one of those things ever again. Wouldn't even let me borrow his car to drive over to the airport. Fine, I said, I'll call a cab. OK, he relented and drove me over. We saw the B-17, crawled all up in it. My FIL really opened up then. Showed me where he used to sit, the whole deal. Now he is gone. It is of my fondest memories of him.

5 When you look inside one it's hard to believe a 17 had a crew of ten.

6 One time many years ago I was standing in a crowd for a parade which was happening at the same time the airport was hosting a sizeable airshow. The airshow featured a bevy of WWII fighters, bombers, etc. of various makes from various countries. Anyway, before the parade got started, this collection of vintage craft from the airshow did a low flyover as part of the parade ceremony, and the noise was AWESOME -- all those prop-driven badasses growling overhead, quite a sight and sound to behold. A guy in the crowd with me said, "Man, if this was London in 1941 we'd all be scattering for cover right about now!"

7 The inside was nothing but exposed cables and wires. You had to be able to make quick repairs.

8 Nice story rawmuse. More and more of our heros are leaving us ever day.

9

fluffy, yeah. Sucked back there, I can't imagine that position for all those hours on those missions.

He passed away last year, lived a long and happy life.

10 Oh yeah, when the B-17 took off from Waterloo, I was right there. What a sound. Harley Davidson's got nothing on these babies.

11 Very cool pics Dave, thanks for sharing.

12 My favorite uncle died a couple of years ago. I did not find out until after he died that he was an Army Medic in the Pacific and had been awarded the Silver Star and 3 PH. To me he was just Uncle Dempsey, farmer, and the one who taught me how to hunt.

13 @ 9 More and more of our heros are leaving us ever day.

Yes, sadly. My 92-year-old veteran uncle finally passed a couple years ago. He'd been a Pearl Harbor survivor, on the USS Pennsylvania when the Japanese attacked. I never could get him to really talk about the experience, but he had a sea chest that was filled with all kinds of war era memorabilia, including a Honolulu newspaper from December 7, 1941 and all kinds of related Navy things.

14 The P-51, awesome aircraft. For a good story about one of those, rent Werner Herzog's "Little Dieter Needs to Fly", a true story about a man I met, as he lived in Northern California, Dieter Dengler, whose life was the basis of the movie "Rescue Dawn".

15 My gratitude goes to all the men who served in these aircraft. What an extraordinary time.

16 @ 16 I had an Uncle whose office was the tail turret in the 17, he never made it back.

Waaay back in junior high I had a history teacher who'd been a tailgunny in a B-17. Man, he was one mean SOB.

17

Maybe we can have a guest blog post about the racist crews of these things in the Pacific theater.

18 lowandslow, I'm not as far west as Midland.  I am not sure where these guys were going, it was just a one day stopover between air shows I think.

19 I'll second the observation that the B-17 is unbelievably small inside.  When you see it from the outside, it looks big, but when you get inside, not so much.  Inside, it feels like it's maybe six feet or so across.  Now imagine you're an 18 or 19 year old kid from boondock Kansas flying in this six foot wide metal tube thousands of feet in the air (not pressurized either) with enemy fighters and anti-aircraft guns shooting at you.  It gave me a whole new appreciation for the courage and determination of my father's generation.  Amazing.

20 Maybe we can marvel at what it took to fly a 25 mission tour in those things before the escort fighters could accompany them all the way.  The odds were against surviving 25 missions.

Dad was a P-47 pilot.

21 @ Now imagine you're an 18 or 19 year old kid from boondock Kansas flying in this six foot wide metal tube thousands of feet in the air (not pressurized either) with enemy fighters and anti-aircraft guns shooting at you.

Absolutely. Especially when that thousands of feet in the air is over water in a part of the world you never thought you'd be anywhere near. You might as well have been going to the moon.

22 When it comes to aircraft of any era, is there anything sexier than a P-51?  I think not.

23 @ 23 He would spend a lot of time telling me stories but you know how it is, I was smart enough to listen to him talk so as not to hurt his feeling but still seventeen years old and didn't really listen.

Yup. If I hadn't been such a smart-ass 14-year-old brat, I probably would've tried to engage my history teacher about his WWII experience -- you know, show some respect. As it was, though, everybody hated his mean old ass, and he wasn't very approachable. At least, that's the perspective we snotty kids held at the time.

24 Tail gunner, loneliest job on the aircraft?

Dave, I think your uncle had the worst job on the B-17G. Hats off to him.





Or a ball turret gunner. You literally were locked in and lowered beneath and separated from the aircraft in those things. If anything happened that prevented you from being raised back in before the aircraft landed on its own power or crash landed you were toast.

My grandfather was a ball turret gunner on a Lib in the Pacific.

25

My grandfather was a B-17 pilot during WWII. He had the misfortune of spending 15 mos in a German POW camp after being shot down during one of their sorties. He was not one to talk much about his experiences. He came to visit me when we were stationed in Germany in the early 90's, and it was the first time he'd been there since being liberated. He didn't stay the entire visit. Brought back too many memories he chose not to relive.

I live not too far from an airfield in AZ that has a museum that often has B-17's come in. I always manage to find out after the fact. One of these days I really need to make a point of getting up there and if nothing else crawling around one...

26

Air show coming up in 3 weeks at Barksdale AFB near Shreveport.

 

27 Like I stated yesterday,  prior to getting bludgeoned by the morons like I was a hobo.

Hannity is a fucking RNC tool.

http://tinyurl.com/yhsogsl

28

I had an opportunity a few years back to do a crawl through of a B-17. What struck me was how small it was inside.

I thought the same thing when my husband showed me where he had to crawl to get to his seat in a B-52! They are certainly big on the outside...

29

I had an opportunity a few years back to do a crawl through of a B-17. What struck me was how small it was inside.
I guess I had watched to many war movies and thought it was a lot bigger.

Posted by: 1sttofight at April 03, 2010 11:30 AM (vPYw1)

Same here. It looked pretty big from the outside but once inside it seemed awful small.

Anybody here ever check out the tail gunner position? The gunner's canopy is just a bit bigger than your average mailbox.

30 @ 29 He came to visit me when we were stationed in Germany in the early 90's, and it was the first time he'd been there since being liberated. He didn't stay the entire visit. Brought back too many memories he chose not to relive.

For most of the rest of his life my uncle hated the 4th of July -- not the sentiment, but the fireworks displays. All the gunpowder smell always reminded him of his WWII Navy experiences -- Pearl Harbor, Okinawa -- he saw some shit go down.

31 Somewhere at my parents' house is a cassette tape of my then 9 year old brother interviewing my grandfather about his experiences in the CBI and Saipan.  He was a white S-2 in an all-black AAA battalion.  He was first deployed to Calcutta defending an airbase before being shipped to Saipan in June 1945 in preparation for the invasion of Japan.  Japanese holdouts were still hiding in the mountains and sugar cane fields, a year after the island was initially taken, and they would occasionally raid his unit's camp.  He said that his unit probably killed more Japanese in ground combat than they did shooting down aircraft (they shot down exactly 1 plane).  That was the only time he ever really spoke of his experiences then, other than saying Calcutta convinced him that he never wanted to travel overseas again.  I wish I could find that tape.

32 well, thank heavens the "smart military" part of smart military blog is back!

33 Got to see the B27 at Midland actually flying once. It was bak i the museum hangar when we got there. It was awesome, except for the oil dripping everywhere. Oh well. it's only B27 still flying. If you're ever in Midland-Odessa it's well worth the couple hours to see the Confederate Air Force museum.

34

While we're on the subject:

One of my uncles was a loadmaster is WWII flying the 'hump' between Burma and China. The first set of stories involved being too heavy and him informing the Chinese officer, who would select X number of Chinese regulars to jump out (no parachutes) to lighten the plane.

The second set was about the second time they were shot down. Story is a bit too long for here, but it involved a broken leg, malaria, a Chinese female to watch over him until he was safe from the persuing Japanese for 6 weeks, and his parents being told by the Army he was dead.

He was a real cool guy to me, but real rough on his oldest son.

35

The P-51 was an awesome plane but most all military planes are.

I don't know which engine that trainer has, but it's probably an Allison. The only P-51 I saw fly was Merlin engined and made a really impressive roar.

36 O/T:   Are these the only guys picking this up?:  "Trojan horse

Given the recent judicial ruling in the lawsuit involving the City of Farmer's Branch, Texas, in which a federal judge ruled that only the federal government has the power to protect people and property on the topic of illegal immigration (essentially banning states from enforcing federal immigration laws - when the federal government fails to do so), one would think that it would have attracted much more attention and closer scrutiny.

After all, as is pointed out over at Atlas Shrugs, seems that we now have no collective right to self defense, and it may not be soon where one's individual "right" to self defense could be "preempted" in the name of federal sovereignty."

Hyscience always finds things that the "regularly read bloggers" seem to miss or choose to ignore.

37 It was awesome, except for the oil dripping everywhere.

That's what radial engines do.  AAMOF, I have a jacket stashed away at home that still has engine oil splatters from Erickson Skycrane's Aerospacelines Guppy.

38 @ 32 Hannity is a fucking RNC tool.

I'm not impressed with Sean Hannity. He and I hold many ideological views in common, but as a radio guy he's pretty boilerplate -- nothing terribly insightful ever comes out of his mouth, IMO. But I'm glad he's on the air attracting an audience bigger than Ed Schulz does.

39

A couple years back, I had the chance to fly in the "Lucky Lady" out of Michigan. These aircraft on the ground look pretty big, but when you get airborne in one of them, believe me  you feel pretty small. The Men that flew these aircraft will always have my undying gratitude. And usually you can find one of these old guys hanging around their "birds". Do yourself a  favor and talk to them, they are true American Heros.

BTW, the largest formation of B25's since WW 2 will be flying at the USAF museum on April 18th  for the Doolittle Raiders re-union. I'll be at the end of the runway "bird watching" .

GOD bless our TROOPS!

40 One of the most significant memories in my life was when I was first married to my bride. I was visiting her home town in Iowa. My father in law was a WWII vet, he served on a B-17 as radio man. There was a restored B-17 over in Waterloo. I begged him to come with me as I wanted to see. He protested, he said he never wanted to set foot in one of those things ever again. Wouldn't even let me borrow his car to drive over to the airport. Fine, I said, I'll call a cab. OK, he relented and drove me over. We saw the B-17, crawled all up in it. My FIL really opened up then. Showed me where he used to sit, the whole deal. Now he is gone. It is of my fondest memories of him.

Posted by: rawmuse at April 03, 2010 11:34 AM (OQ3LO)

A few years before my grandfather passed I took him to the Richmond Air Museum when they had a Lib on display. It was perhaps one of the fondest memories I have of any occasion. The old man looked at that thing and placed his hands on it like a familiar long lost love, but like your father in law, rawmuse, I couldnt convince him to take the ride. He's actually mentioned a few times in Alan C. Carey's "They Flew Alone". In one instance they were right next to a Japanese"Betty and he opened up with his twin .50's from the ball turret position close enough that his whole crew could see him cut the pilot and the co-pilot to pieces and fill their cockpit up with a pink mist.

I had to read the book to find out stuff like that, the fact is, he never talked about his experiences in the war.

He was pretty brutal with those twin .50's back in the day, but to me he'll always be a gentle and quiet farm boy from Shadyside, Ohio and one the greatest man I ever had the pleasure of knowing..

This is the pic I have over at the Yahoo site. He's the tall guy standing directly beneath the 4 on the aircraft.

41 Where are these planes at?  That looks like something I want to see in person.

42 My grandfather was also a pilot on a B-17. He was fortunate enough to fulfill his 25 missions. I remember whe I was a kid he showed me his flak collection. Small chunks that stuck into his seat and a couple that stuck to him.  He never talked about his experiences, but I knew he was proud to have served. I'll always remember him sitting out in the garage listening to polka music and drinking his wine. He passed away in 1991.

43

Actually, the B-24 that DiT posted above is the exact plane I took my grandfather to see. Thanks Dave, for posting this, like I said above, this brings back one of the best memories I have.

44 Coming soon, to a city near you.

45 @ 51 Once she's gone there won't be anyone left that would even remember my Uncle when he was alive.

Fortunately, my mother is still around -- she was just a little tyke when my uncle was at Pearl and Okinawa, but she's familiar enough with his stories to pass the gist of them along.

46 I've seen that one a few times. I live next to the Airport where the last remaining flying Zero and a B-25 Mitchell are housed. There is also a Mig 17 and about 6 T-4 trainers (F4f Hellcats) a shitload of those 2 engine flying boats, 2 planes I haven't beeen able to identify (possibly experimental late 40's) and a dual rotor helicopter thing I can't figure out. But the planes I love the most are the Gulfstreams full of...  somebody who can afford a gulfstream, landing to meet up with the limos heading for the Bunnyranch. But I digress. I love living here under the landing traffic I see things noone else can. Sometimes these planes are so low I can see the hydraulic hoses twitch putting the landing gear down.

47 They fly into Addison airport every once in a while, I guess for temporary exhibits at Cavanaugh Flight museum.  My brother lived right next to that airport for a short time and once when we were outside working on his car I think that same B-17 flew right over us on its final approach.  It was awesome.  Probably the awesomest thing I've ever seen.

48 @ 55 There it is, that's what Dave in Texas saw.

I'd love to take a ride in one of those babies, but, well, $400+ ain't something I can afford to part with too frivolously these days...

49 When I lived in Illinois, I was doing some work outside one day when the EAA's B-17 Aluminum Overcast turned to base right over my backyard when it was lading at Waukegan airport one year on the way to Oshkosh. Low, slow, loud and absolutely stunning.

50

. . . and a dual rotor helicopter thing I can't figure out.

Gimme a good description and I could prolly tell you what it is. If it's military, that is.

51

If you haven't been to Dayton to the Air Force Museum, you have to go.  I've been there many times because it wasn't too far from where I lived.  Admission is free unless you want to watch the IMAX films.   The first time I was there they were still flying B52s out of Wright Patterson.  I don't see how anyone could live nearby then, the sound was deafeningly awesome.  I can't say this enough, if you love warbirds you have to go there.  They have reunions all the time too.  They have the Doolittle Tokyo Raiders Reunion coming up in a few weeks.  They'll about 20 B25s coming in for the show and reunion.   Her's their site...http://tinyurl.com/ybkj6py 

52 Oh yeah, The Confederate Air Force.  They are flying into Indy even as I type this to beat the crap out of some Yankee teams, the worst? Those turn coat West Virginians.

Go DUKE!!

53 I got to crawl around on a P-51 once at the Loveland, CO airport. Lots of people have mentioned how small the bombers are when you climb in one, but I had the opposite reaction to the P-51. They seem small from a distance, like a Cessna puddle jumper, but when you climb into the cockpit those sumbitches are big. All engine and guns and bad intentions, I get a tingle up my leg thinking about it.

54 I'd love to take a ride in one of those babies, but, well, $400+ ain't something I can afford to part with too frivolously these days...

The $400 is just the beginning of it.

I got a ticket to ride on the B-17 or the B-24 at a charity auction last year. The way they do it is that you join them when they're ferrying the plane between 2 cities, so you have the origin/destination travel to arrange, too.

I still need to schedule my flight, but I'm waiting for them to announce some dates a little closer to home.

55

&^%*%$&# sockpuppet!

56 Andy, I flew in one years ago.  Take earplugs, they are noisy!

57 @ 60 If you haven't been to Dayton to the Air Force Museum, you have to go.

When my parents lived in Dayton, I used to go out to the Wright-Pat air force museum every time I visited. What a great place. I got to where I knew most of the displays by heart.

58 Here is a great piece of trivia - Only one woman's blonde hair was used to make the WW2 bomb sights - how awesome is that!

http://tinyurl.com/yj4ve2w

59

Dear old Mom used to tell stories of disguising herself in a jumpsuit and hitching training rides with the pilots at Birmingham. She also knew one of the crew of the Enola Gay.

Lame, I know, but hey, it's the best I got.

Oh, but when they hold the Warbird airshow over in Titusville, a few of the planes fly very close to the house. Their relaxed pace and the engine sound gives me plenty of time to go outside and watch them pass.

Way cool indeed.

60

 When my parents lived in Dayton, I used to go out to the Wright-Pat air force museum every time I visited. What a great place. I got to where I knew most of the displays by heart.

Posted by: Vile Roman at April 03, 2010 12:49 PM

We still stop by whenever we go to the Hamfest in Dayton.  But then I'm a sucker for all of those kinds of museums.  I love the Henry Ford, the National Air and Space,  and the  Musuem of Sicence and Industry. 

61 Those are the Collings Foundation planes... I flew on the B17 last summer, and I still get goosebumps thinking about it. If you can scrape up the money (I have generous friends, and it was my birthday), it's well worth it...

62

So I had a toilet clog yesterday of epic proportions. Nothing worked. Plunging for hours didn't fix the problem. I went on the Internet and looked around and discovered a site that said to put a few squirts of dish soap and some hot water in the bowl and let it set. Then plunge. Repeat if the clog doesn't clear. Sure enough, it worked on the second try. I'm passing this along to the morons as a money saving measure in these troubling times. If you pinch a loaf the size of a bowling ball, this will fix the problem.

Don't use boiling water, though. You might crack the porcelain bowl. Just use hot water from the tap.

63 Uh-oh. Lowercase andy is not uppercase Andy.

This could get confusing.

64 @ 71 Don't use boiling water, though. You might crack the porcelain bowl.

Porcelain? Shit, I knew this guy whose bowl was solid gold, baby! . . . What? That's a tuba? Oh, sorry . . .

65

I used to travel a lot and hit every aviation museum I could.

For all of you Florida morons, one of the best was The Air Force Armament Museum, next to Eglin AFB.

It's got lots of neat stuff.

66  Built the B17 model as a kid and its my favorite plane. My wife bought me a flight on aluminum Overcast when it came through Mass. Wow. Met a B17 vet from Mass who's plane almost collided with another in bad weather, they dropped thousands of feet, lost contact with the group which turned around because of the weather. His plane continued, was shot down over France, and he escaped from the Germans twice with his arm mangled. In his book, he talked about how cold it was at altitude in winter, any exposed flesh would stick to metal. Now when I think about B17's, I think of these guys before I think of the beautiful craft. I'm in awe.

(After we landed, my wife tells me the first thing I said was, "that thing is a habitrail inside.")

67

Another good air museum is the Tillamook Air Museum in Tillamook Oregon, in a World War II Blimp hanger. Here's a link to it:

http://tinyurl.com/q43ryr

68 Lowandslow: THANK YOU I live minutes from the DV airport. Gonna take the boys through the B17 this afternoon thanks to your heads up.

69 59

. . . and a dual rotor helicopter thing I can't figure out.

Gimme a good description and I could prolly tell you what it is. If it's military, that is.

Posted by: Ed Anger at April 03, 2010 12:44 PM (7+pP9)

http://tinyurl.com/y9hd4bg

Sort of looks like this. I'm 50% convinced that's what it is. It's been a while since I've witnessed it, very unique sounding aircraft.

70 @ 76 Another good air museum is the Tillamook Air Museum in Tillamook Oregon, in a World War II Blimp hanger.

While you're there, get some cheese. It's good stuff.

71 Mr. rockmom's siblings gave him a ride in that B-17 for his 50th birthday 2 years ago. He absolutely loved it! They come to Trenton every year and we have actually seen them flying over our house. One thing crossed off the bucket list! We are regular donors to the Collings Foundation now.

72

Sort of looks like this. I'm 50% convinced that's what it is. It's been a while since I've witnessed it, very unique sounding aircraft.

Posted by: mydemonsdriveon at April 03, 2010 01:09 PM (jMu3T)

That's one weird-ass looking chopper! I've never heard of the Kaman K-MAX. If I ever saw one I wouldn't forget it.

You might have seen a Kaman Huskie. It was a pretty popular helicopter back in the day.

73 The sound of a B-17 flying overhead is unmistakable. We usually hear it before the Watsonville Fly-In, when the old planes fly tours around the area.

74 1.  My grandfather was in the Pacific in WWII in the Army.  He had quite a few momentos, but most perished in a house fire in 1948.  I only have a copy of o photo of him riding a bike in Japan after the war during the occupation.

2.  I highly recommend the SAC museum in Omaha.  There is a small exhibit there on the Linebacker II campaign against North Vietnam (the "Christmas bombing") in 1972.  Take a look a the bomb damage assessment photos of the Hanoi railyard and stand in awe of the B-52. 

3.  I suppose it now falls to our generation to make sure that the lessons of the previous century are not forgotten.  There were, are, and will always be those who want to take our freedom.  They are not fictional or fantastical boogeymen as some would have us believe.  Thank God for the heroes who were, are and will stnad in their way.

75 So I had a toilet clog yesterday of epic proportions. Come for the Warbirds, stay for the household hints.

76

Thanks Andy, I updated the post with your link.

 

Now I'm gonna go eat lightning, and crap thunder.

77 There is a PBY Catalina at Dayton with my dad's squadron patch on it. He was in air/sea rescue in the Pacific. He says he can't rmember if that one was actually one he was on but it was nice to see something from his squadron.

78

Now I'm gonna go eat lightning, and crap thunder.

And when you do, put some dish soap and hot water in the bowl! It will clear that thunder turd in no time at all!

79 My best friend's father was Army Air Corps, crazy bastard...would fly anything, anywhere during WWII.  Hell of a pilot.  He worked for Curtis LeMay, the stories he could tell.  His son is AF Academy graduate who became a physicist.  He had fond memories of his dad, unfortunately he died in a plane crash in the Potomac in the late 50's.  Made Maj. General in his late 40's, hell of a man.

80 I've seen both those bombers before, many years ago at Martin State Airport in Baltimordor.  Went with a guy who flew 24 missions as a B-24J bombardier in the 15th Air Force out of Italy, bombing targets in occupied Austria and Romania.  (Fun fact:  The guy in that nose turret?  Locked in.  The only way he could get out was if the bombardier let him out.  Needless to say, nose gunners stayed close friends with the bombardiers.)

His 24th mission, his Liberator got shot up by flak and when they dropped, one live 500lb GP bomb hung up in the bay.  He ended up having to walk back from the nose to the bomb bay, stand on the girder that ran across the center of the bomb bay 10,000 feet over the Adriatic Sea, and use a fire axe to hammer on the shackles holding a live 500-pound bomb stuck in place.  Oh yeah, and he had to do it without a parachute...there were two other girders that made a "V" and didn't leave enough space for even a small man to weasel through while wearing a chute.

He couldn't get the bomb free.  They had to land back in Italy with a live bomb in the bay.  Due to hydraulic damage, they ran off the end of the steel-plank runway...at which point the bomb finally detached, fell out the open bomb bay, and exploded under and behind the aircraft.  Miraculously, they only had one fatality, but all nine of the remaining crew were injured to some extent.  By the time the rest of the crew had recuperated, the war was over.  He showed me pictures of the wreck, and honestly, I don't know how anybody got out of it alive, it was barely recognizeable as a B-24J.

We went to see the planes with his daughter.  He'd never told her that story, or anything much about his service, really.  She was stunned when she saw just how crude those planes were, and when she realized just what her dad had done.

81 Baltimordor

Heh.Apt description.

82

Sunny, warm and clear here.  Cool pics, that reminds me that its gettin' to be airshow season again.  Mmm guacamole day.  Then ham tomorrow!

83 Oh, and if we're telling grandfather stories, mine jumped out of two burning C-5s in Korea.  Miss him.

84 One does not merely walk into Baltimordor.

If one's smart, one stays the hell out entirely.

85 If you ever make it to Guam before it tips over and capsizes, there are a lot of warbirds that didn't make to the end of the war.  Most of a B-29 is scattered throughout the jungle down the hill from Andersen AFB -- came in with two engines shot out, lined up on the wrong runway, when he figured it out and went around, flipped it over.  I think the tail-gunner was the only survivor.  There's also part of an F-4U on the Navy base, and part of a Zero in the harbor. 

One of my last flights before we left was up to Tinian.  Most of the base is abandoned and reclaimed by the jungle, but the bomb-loading pits where the put the A-bombs in the Enola Gay and Bock's Car are still there. 

86

I have piloted Aluminum Overcast. Before the rules changed, you could actually fly left-seat, and get the notation in your log book. My son the Air Force officer gave me the gift package for Father's Day. What a good boy.

I was being shepherded through a B-24 at my local field when the guide saw a little old lady up in the gear loft behind the cockpit. He said, "Ma'am, no one's allowed in there, you'll have to come down," and she said, "I couldn't stop myself. I used to tuck in the wiring harnesses at Willow Run, and just had to see if I could still fit in here." And then there was not a dry eye on deck. The guide said "You stay as long as you want. Just yell when you want down."

The B-17 flies like a dream, with the bomb bay empty and no one shooting at you. No pedal for turn bank; just turn the yoke. Nose trims high. I flew over my office building at 1500' with the bomb bay doors open, and never took any shit off anybody there for the rest of my career. I do not ride in Airbuses.

87 In the summer, during the EAA air show week, their B-17 is staged at the Outagamie County airport and flies back and forth to Oshkosh. The flight path is directly over my house, and a dozen times during the week I can hear the rumble of the engines and go outside to watch the plane go over at 500 feet or so. Hearing those 4 unsynchronized Wright Cyclones is awesome. Sounds like a thunder of Harley-Davidsons coming down the road.

88 @96, that is an awesome sight/sound isn't it?

89 that B17 was here at Purdue a couple years ago

90 When it comes to aircraft of any era, is there anything sexier than a P-51?  I think not.
--------------------------


Spitfire.

The P-51 is attractive in a muscle-car kind of way. The Spitfire is like a beautiful sports car.

They both used the Rolls-Royce Merlin V-12, which has the most perfect exhaust note in all of internal-combustiondom. When one goes overheard it just about brings a man to tears. I saw a Lancaster once, which used four of them. It was a symphony. 

91 Those props make a special sound.  I was at Potsdam last year and a DC-3 came over, I think it is a tour deal, but it was really cool to see that thing flying over old East Germany.

92 I was in my backyard a few years ago when I heard the unmistakable sound of warbird radial engines - very deep. Looked up and saw a B-17 and B-24 flying directly overhead. Don't see that every day in Maine.

93

I think I have been inside that B-17. I have been in one, anyway. What got my attention was the tiny little walkway over the bomb-bay. My grandfathers were both in the navy during WWII, but one was commission only a month before VE day and never saw service in the Pacific, while the other one enlisted at the ripe old age of 15. I know nothing about his service since he never talked about it. He was a difficult man to get along with and ended up leaving my grandmother after eight kids, so I never really got to know him and don't have his service number to at least find out what ship he was on. I figure he must have seen action, in the Pacific I believe, but nothing more.

My other grandfather stayed in the navy as a chaplain and had some stories about being transfered from one ship to another by means of a chair rigged on a cable between the two ships. He never did learn to swim...he also had story about sneaking off base with a load of clothing for an orphanage - It was a Protestant orphanage in a Catholic country prior to Vatican II, the chaplains had applied for permission to donate some stuff but it had not been forthcoming, so he and his fellow chaplains sneaked a truckload of clothing out of the base and got back without being caught. Naturally, permission came the next day.

94 That guy on top of the turret in the first pic looks like he's humping it, but he's actually just cleaning it.

95 "They both used the Rolls-Royce Merlin V-12, which has the most perfect exhaust note in all of internal-combustiondom. When one goes overheard it just about brings a man to tears. I saw a Lancaster once, which used four of them. It was a symphony." Well said! The Merlin lives up to it's name. The sound of those engines is pure magic.

96 The CAF in Midland (they changed the 'C' from 'Confederate' to 'Commemorative' a decade ago because they knew the can't-get-the-joke PC police would be coming for them soon if they didn't) holds their annual air show either the final weekend of September or the first weekend of October, while the planes spend most of their time there for the same reason the major airlines park their unused jets in the desert. Worth a side-trip if you're going through the area (and the museum's only about half a mile off I-20 at the airport).

97

>> Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Oh hell, I wanted to.

 

Too many people around.

98

My father was a B-24 pilot (15th AAF, Italy), and there's really too much to say about that to fit here.  He was one of four pilots in the 464thBG to go MIA twice, and managed to get everybody home without anybody being POWs.

My mother always talked about how hard it was to drive those bombers (classified as "heavy bomber", like the B-17) because they were so big.  Back then, they were the biggest aircraft flying, and controlling them was pretty "manual".  But see them on a runway these days, and they seem pretty puny compared to even an average airliner.

Think of his job as flying for hours to a target. and when you get there you have to drive straight through what can be thought of as a 3-D minefield in the sky.  Then try to get home with what's left of your aircraft, which was probably already pretty banged up before you even took off.

@67 That was some pretty cool trivia about the Norden bomb site. My father said that when he landed near where his first plane crashed, he had the presence of mind (!) to think about going over to destroy to bomb site, but that there were shells exploding from the plane and it wouldn't have been safe to do so. As it was, it was a miracle he wasn't killed, pulling the cord as he jumped out the bomb bay at 500FT (no chute training; had just cleared a mountain pass).  He was the last one out, of course, so nobody was trying to fly the thing at the time, either...

@95 In our research about my father's experiences (my brother's writing a book), we learned that one of the planes he lost had been made at Willow Run, so that was a nice story to hear about.  The other one he lost was made in Ft Worth.

99 I do not ride in Airbuses.

I salute you.

100 Ahh yes, the Merlin, a wonderful sound indeed.  Got to watch a P51 warm up and take off last fall when I was visiting the Planes of Fame museum in Chino while laid over in California over a weekend.  A LOT of neat stuff on display there.  The '51 is a sexy bird indeed; the P47s are fricking huge. 

101

When you stand in the nose bubble of the B-17 (you'll have to brace your hands on the upper part of the oval), you can't see any part of the wings or fuselage. Other than jumping out the door, it's the closest you'll ever be to just flying.

Merlins for all US applications, and some British ones, were built by Packard.

Most B-17 engines were built by Studebaker.

102 This may have been linked before, but it's well worth another read:

http://tinyurl.com/y9eagvm

103 For people in Southern California, there's a pretty decent air museum out in Palm Springs.  That's where I got the walk-through of the B-17.  They also had a B-25 and a whole bunch of other planes.  They also have a website:  http://www.air-museum.org/

104 This same set of planes was in San Antonio last weekend, and my husband and I went and crawled through them. I was in the CAF briefly and worked one of their big annual shows, so I'm used to WW2 planes, but it had been awhile. I forgot how small the bomb bay on the B-17 was, for example--all that massive airframe and crew to drop a fairly small payload.

We often meet interesting people there visiting these touring airplanes--not only veteran airmen, but folks like the British lady who lived through the Blitz, and a Filipina lady whose mother witnessed the Bataan death march. It's great fun, but it really does make you think about what folks went through in that war.

105 A few summer ago, this B-17 was in Corvallis, OR for a weekend.  I walked out of my house in Albany that Saturday morning, heard and saw it going by.  I grabbed my kids and the neighbor kids and we followed it over to Corvallis.  Spent $10 to get in the gate and crawled through it.  The kids had a blast.  I didn't have the money for the ride.  Dangit!  Oh well, being in it was fantastic.

While we were there, a DC-3 landed and parked right next to the B-17.  After a while, they started it up again and took off.  There is nothing in the world like the sound of big radial engines!

106 I do have to put in a plug for a WWII reenactment that I've attended.  There are alot of them, and we've been to a few.  Some were okay and some were not much but will hopefully grow.  But the DDay one in Conneaut, OH on Lake Erie is excellent.  Apparently this particular beach was chosen because it most closely resembled Omaha beach but because of weather and conflicts with the public beach they hold it in August.  At any rate, the reenactors are great on both sides, lots of flyovers, lots of pyrotechnics, lots of artillery, and even landing craft.  They have added more every year to make it as authentic as possible.  It's free and you can visit the encampments and talk to the reenactors.  There were alot of WWII vets there when we visited, and they loved it.  The kids loved it too...living history.  http://www.ddayohio.us/

107

It's funny because when I climbed around in a B-17 I remember thinking how big it was. But I was only 8 years old.

 

108

Deanna, in 1942 a 20-foot tidal wave hit that same beach, and killed 7 people.

In Ohio.  I remember that whenever I hear this: http://tinyurl.com/y8ndkfn

 

109 Took my dad on a flight on this B-17 in summer 2006. He was infantry when he was in WWII, but has always had an interest in the 17. So when Collings brought theirs through the local airport, I figured it was a great birthday present and got tickets for both of us. It was; he still talks about it.

Yep, it's hard to get around in the 17 if you're even close to 6' tall. Or - ahem - like Yr. Humble Narrator, a touch on the overpoundage side. And it's really hard to get around in it when you're flying and it's bumping along in air pockets. Your first reaction is to grab for a handhold, but since they made a point in the pre-flight briefing of telling you to not grab any cables because that means you're flying the airplane you settle for trying to just not actually fall down. And you wind up with a much greater appreciation of just how difficult it must have been to actually fly and fight in this thing with the full flight suit and oxy mask.

Well worth the money. Do it if you get the opportunity. I've been saving my pennies for the up front B-25 ride assuming Collings ever brings it back through here again.
 

110 Hey that same B-24 came to the Spud State, at least I think it's the same one.

http://blueskycafe.us

111 The B-17 is a beautiful bird. Didn't the B-17 crews say that the B-24 was the crate the B-17 was shipped in?

112

My Dad and Uncle (Mother's brother) were both WWII vets. I remember him telling me they all tried to enlist after Pearl Harbor, but the Army sent them away and told them to wait to be called (my Dad was only 17 at the time),  Most of the men (men? boys) in his high school class served (graduate in 1942). Can you imagine that, that almost all the guys you went to high school either enlisted or were drafted into the military? Some never came home.

My Dad's best friend flew P-39's (Aircobra) in close air support against the Japanese, then P-63's (Supercobra's) at the end of the war. A guy that I worked for at one time had flown P-51's over Germany in WWII. Softest spoken, mild mannered guy. But that was the way most of those guys were, mostly all gone now.

113

I am glad the Collings Foundation is still flying those planes.  For those who think a B-17 and B-24 aint cool, Collings also flies an F-4 Phantom II so you can suck up those jet fumes.

I got to crawl around the B-24 when it was called the All American.  I think it is  a J model.  It was rescued from India who last flew B-24s in the 1960s and then restored in Kissemme, FL.  It is cramped and cluttered with so much gear - machine guns, ammo, oxygen bottles, and all that.  And just think if the B-24 could not retract the ball turret, the gunner was dead since landing would scrape the turret off.

Actually that is not a trainer P-51 Mustang.  It is either a B or C model Mustang with the Packard V-1650 Merlin.  Many Mustangs on the civil registry do away with the fuselage fuel tank and fit a second seat so they can give people a taste of flying in a Mustang.  Plus removing the tank removes a tricky CG problem Merlin powered Mustangs had when the tank was more than half full.

Thanks for the pictures.  Now thinking of scanning in my pictures of All American and posting them.  Especially the sign in the nose turret that read 'Jets Are For Kids'

114 Choose the B-17
I recommend that anyone interested in spending the $425 for a ride take the B-17 flight, if you can get it.  On that plane (we flew in the same one in the photos -  231909) they will slide back the "sun roof" just behind side gunner stations and let you stick your head out into the airstream.  You can look down the top of the fuselage towards the tail/stabilizers as you ride.  You can try to look forward (into the airstream at approx. 100 mph) but it's useless without goggles.  Our pilot was a young man who is a short-haul cargo pilot in Alaska.  Irony: he's a German national, his grandfather was a civilian in Nazi Germany and subject to bombing raids by perhaps the exact same plane, over 65 years ago. Oh, btw, being cargo for 30 minutes on this plane was fvcking kewlest thing evah...

115

For B-17 rides in Houston area go to gulfcoastwing dot org. Wings over Houston is a must see for aircraft nuts like me.

Some airbase in San Antonio has awesome display including SR-71 and F-82 Twin Mustang.

116 I saw these same 3 planes when they made their way through Colorado last year.  Pretty amazing.

Today I spent the afternoon onboard the USS Massachusetts for a birthday party with a bunch of kids.  I left the kids with the parents and took a walk around by myself, trying to find CIC (I was an OS back in the day) etc.  The ships from those days still amaze me.

And since we're sharing family war stories, my grandfather was on the USAT Dorchester in WWII and was one of the 227 survivors (of 902 onboard) when she went down off the coast of Greenland in 1943.  He didn't talk about it at all with my father, but entertained my questions when I was a young kid.  I guess I was the only one in the family he shared anything with regarding that.  When he died, I asked my grandmother for his memorabilia from then, including the rescue beacon he had on his life jacket that saved his life.  A couple years ago, I donated it to the Four Chaplains Memorial on the Queen Mary in Long Beach.  Go see it.

117 Stupid link didn't work.  Here we go.

118 At this point I believe we're over Suisun Bay, just past Mothball Fleet.  View thru Norden Bombsite, crosshairs courtesy of Mary Babnick Brown?

http://tiny.cc/f8cj4

119 The Collins Foundation comes here to CT, and I got to fly in the B-17, when they came to Stratford. Very cool, we went to only about 3,000 feet, but it was trippy to be able to see through the seams of the aircraft. The guy opened the top and we could stick our heads out. (Not advisable.) We crawled all over that thing, it was VERY cool.

120 BTW, talking about overflights...I lived in Columbia, SC a while back and the CAF was bringing the last flyable B-29 in the world, "Fifi," to town.  I drove out to KCAE at lunchtime hoping I could see it, as I was going to be out of town over the weekend so I couldn't take the tour--no dice.  As I was driving back down the highway leaving the airport, I caught a motion out of the corner of my eye...and here comes Fifi on a photo pass, hauling balls, 500' off the ground in a left bank and all four R-3350s howling.  I'm surprised I didn't wreck, or at least go back to work with stains on the front of my pants, if ya know what I mean and I think you do.

The last and only time I cried at an airshow was when Aluminum Overcast, Diamond Lil (CAF's B-24), Fifi, and the Canadian Warplane Museum's Avro Lancaster did a missing-man formation at the Dayton (OH) Airshow many years ago...to the bagpipe strains of "Amazing Grace."  B-17, B-24, Lancaster, and B-29 in tight formation, with the B-17 breaking off right as they got abeam of us.  The sound of sixteen piston engines in formation like that is indescribable...it's not that loud, but it sounds like God's own electric toothbrush or something.  It was just magical.  Can you imagine what a formation of hundreds of heavy bombers must've sounded like?

121

That reminds me, it's time to buy tickets for the Dayton Air Show. The Blue Angels are headlining this year and I've never seen them. SWEET!

122 @131--you're in for a treat.  I've seen both the Angels and the Thunderbirds and they're both awesome.

Surprisingly, one year in the mid-'90s at Dayton, the headline military act wasn't either the T-Birds or the Blue Angels, it was the Brazilian Air Force precision flying team, the "Esquadrilha da Fumaça" (Smoke Squadron).  They flew single-engined Tucano turboprops, so they weren't as loud as a jet squadron, but those guys were damn good.  They were slow enough that you could really see the amazing precision, and their two featured soloists did stuff with the Tucanos that simply can't be done with F-16s or F/A-18s.  One of them yanked so many negative Gs he broke blood vessels in his eyes--they rode the pilots down the line afterward, and we were in the front row, and one of my friends yelled at the featured solo pilot to take off his sunglasses.  Cheech and Chong put together never had eyes as red as that poor guy.

I went to Dayton several times in the '90s...a friend worked at WPAFB as a civilian contractor.  Craphole of a town, but the USAF Museum and the airshow sure made up for it.

123 Looks like my airshow calendar is filling up for the year.

My great-uncle bought it in a '17 over Germany, 9 August 1944, 365th BS of the 305th BG. I still have his Class A set of wings, they were in his wall locker back in England. Not much else of his personal effects survived his buddies, shipping, etc.

124

Surprisingly, one year in the mid-'90s at Dayton, the headline military act wasn't either the T-Birds or the Blue Angels, it was the Brazilian Air Force precision flying team, the "Esquadrilha da Fumaça" (Smoke Squadron). 

They were there last year and they were great fun to watch! The tight maneuvers were sweet and right in the front row. The acrobatics were straight badass! It was cool to see the pilots hanging out with everyone else afterwards while they enjoyed the rest of the show.

I was up behind the news vans between GA and VIP and had a helluva seat and was close enough to watch the AH-64 demonstration. I'm a an air show addict now!

125

I was at the Dayton Airshow in 2003, for the Centennial of Flight.

I (and my family) just missed meeting Neil Armstrong, while walking down the flightline looking at the old WWII prop-jobs.

The Thunderbirds opened, and they had the Smoke Squadron AND the Blue Angels. John Travolta was there with his 707, and John and John Glenn flew it on an orbit around the field.

I grew up in Dayton, and yes indeed it has become a craphole of a town.  It wasn't always that way, but it is now. GM, the UAW, and decades of craphole city government did it in.

 

 

126

If you're fascinated with WWII aircraft, check out these USN/USMC aircraft which contributed to the winning of the war in the Pacific.

F4F, F6F, F4U, OS2U, JM-1, JRF, J2F, SBC, TBD/TBM, TBF, SB2C, SB2U, SBD, PB4Y & PBY-5.

127 I flew inside a B-17, "Texas Raiders" in 1990

128 130 Moose4: Can you imagine what a formation of hundreds of heavy bombers must've sounded like?

Maybe. Consider this story, posted to USENET ten years ago.
<pre>
From: Charles.K.Scott...
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Speaking of engine synchronization

Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:14:03 GMT

I have an acquaintence who is Dutch and spent the war
years in Holland...

...he [described] how during the day the skies shook
with the sound of American bombers heading towards
occupied territory and when the sun went down you could
hear this faint roaring in the western sky that
gradually grew louder and louder until the house
literally shook as hundreds of British bombers passed
overhead on their way to Germany.
</pre>

My father was a B-17 bombardier. Several years ago he and I were at a show of the Collings Foundation "Wings of Freedom" planes, including the B-17 depicted here.

BTW, if you want to know what it was like, read Jeff Shaara's novel No Less Than Victory.  Chapter 1 begins:

He was already cold, ice in both legs, that same annoying knot freezing in his stomach. The  plane shimmied sidewise, and he rocked with it, felt the  nose go up, could see the ground falling away, the B-17 climbing higher, steeper...

My dad flew thirty missions like that, and he says Shaara has it right.

129 MOST DE-EF' Had to jump into this one..have taken the off-spring (all six) to the show-up of the B-17, B-25, AND the rare dust-up of only 6 and I Do mean 6 in the whole eeefffin world P-38's still flying!!! Got to see it last at Burbank few years past, and WHAT DRAMA, nose gear fail on approach, 4 passes with a clutch of 80+ former LOCKHEED employees(wheelchair and walker gang) and the skipper had to HAND CRANK the nose gear down on the 5th pass cause his passenger was a former WAC who ferried aircraft from the factories the the state side bases during WWII and ..well SHE was in her 80's after all! But he got her down but had to suffer the embarrassment of being followed to the tarmac by the Crash Tender Trucks . When he climbed out of the cockpit, it was painfully obvious he had sweated thru his flight suit in his effort to get the Lightning on the ground. But he DID get her down.