1 1

2 I've long been a fan of Yon, more his photography than his writing, but I suspect after something like 5 years in war zones, it might be time for him to take a break.

3
Sounds like *real* journalism is not wanted in This Man's Army.

4
Where's Unlce Jimbo been, btw?

He was a good asset to have at this smart military blog, being, you, experienced in the military, and all

5 What's clear is that Mr. Yon has acted Stupidly and his Salt Intake may need to be modified.

6 I'm a fan if Mr. Yon's on Facebook. he seems like a decent guy to me. I'd tend to believe the fault lies elsewhere....

7 I've always thought Jimbo should take his ego out of the equation... not just this time.

Jimbo's a smart man with a great blog, but he's too loyal to commanders and it's clear that's his issue against Yon.  Jimbo has the harsher allegation... I need to see great evidence and I mean fucking great.  Not that some rule was broken so much as a real problem that would justify removing Yon on moral grounds.  Yon is basically the best military journalist of our generation, partly because he's so passionate and accurate.  I have always thought he is very fair with information.

And he is complimenting McChrystal as a great killer but not a good leader in this conflict.  God Damn... isn't this conflict not being run very well?  Who is going to criticize it if not embedded journalists?

I know Jimbo's personality enough not to even bother asking for an apology or review of his allegations.  Yon did nothing wrong bashing the commander of a languishing effort... frankly the performance alone more than proves Yon has a point about everything he said... so the accusations that need proof at Jimbo's not Yon's.

We need to have this argument.  We need more of what Yon is doing and too many mil bloggers aren't doing it. 

8 Michael is an ex-SFO, just like the guys in Afghanistan there now. Its tough going back as a journo embedded and having to be fair - warts and all. Even the SF general staff don't like anything negative even though they know that COIN is not fool-proof or Murphyless. There is that tension and I would hate for Michael to get on McChrystal's bad side. After all, McC works for Petreaus and he wrote the book on COIN. Michael doesn't know all the details but he gives great profiles to the troops, their lives and their risks. Better he stick with the troops and not get too myopic about strategy and tactics.

9 Opinions will be offered by many in the current administration despite "not being military and not having earned the right"!  I'm sure Obama himself would offer an opinion sculpted from his vast knowledge of the subject.  We probably won't have to ask.

10 Yon is the best. I wish him the best of luck.
However I do believe he has earned a well deserved break. He has been doing his job day in and day out for a long time now.

11

Hey Ace,

You should check out the story about the whitehouse buying the search term words Goldman Sachs SEC from google, it in the New York Post. The first link it brings back is to the whitehouse website.

Anyone who uses google is a tool of this administration in my opinion.

12 I have always thought Yon was a ballsy guy doing great work.  Sounds like me may want to take a little time off and regroup.

13 By the way, you owe Yon at least a beer's worth of tipjar money, friends.

Please support him today, because he's having a shitty time and he's always had our backs.  It's hard to do what he does even with a lot of support. 

So go ahead and do without that Big Mac Attack tonight and give Yon ten or twenty dollars. 

14 Whatever happened to Bob Bevalaqua? He was great right after 9-11.

15 I think that I'm too confused (after reading quite a lot about this between bouts with the little numbers) to comment.

16 The Fort Hood incident really opened my eyes.  I don't have much respect for the military any more.  I know the rank and file are decent people, but they're being used as cannon fodder by incompetent politically-motivated leaders.  I would strongly discourage anyone who's thinking about signing up, for the time being.

17

I can kind of see both sides here.

Yon still thinks like a grunt, which is a good thing, but he takes that mindset into his interactions with the command staff, which is sure to make sparks fly. There is an inherent problem with writing combat dispatches (which Ernie Pyle also found): you are a stakeholder and not an impartial observer. Therefore you are emotionally invested in how and why and where decisions are made.

There is a lot of chain-of-command pissiness, but that's part and parcel of the military structure, and Yon knows that as well as anyone. It only gets more intense in smaller wars like Afghanistan because Lt. Cols. want to be full-bird Cols., bird Cols. want that first star, and brigadiers want to move up to corps command. But there are only so many slots, and only so many careers that can move forward. One little slip-up can mean that you top out as a Lt. Col. For some guys that's enough, but for many others it means a failed end to twenty years of pole-climbing.

Then there is an ageless and never-ending friction between field commanders and general staff that goes back to the Roman legions if not before.

I think that Yon probably just needs to come back and decompress a bit before going back into the field. Even line soldiers only serve for a year or two at a time before they rotate back to the world.

 

18 "because I'm just not military and haven't earned the right." You have the right to an opinion, just not the knowledge base to make an informed one. Right has nothin' to do with it.

19 And Jimbo is a great asset to the effort too.  I do resent his half cocked reaction to this, but that's how some folks act sometimes.  He's still a must read.

20

Anyone who uses google is a tool of this administration in my opinion.

^{Posted by: robtr at April 20, 2010 03:08 PM (fwSHf)}

Try "scroogle.org"

21
I have no doubt The Brass thinks they should be able to control Yon's writing, as he's former SF with the attendant clearances.  The fact that they can't would seem to be what this is all about, they feel like he should be an unofficial PIO and not mention anything at all negative about the Green Machine.   I would tend to believe the troops that he is actually embedded with rather than some weaselly officer in a HQ somewhere.

22 This kind of smart military blogging has really detracted from what was once a great site about dolphin-fucking.

23 In fairness, some of the stuff I've seen on Yon's site with detailed maps, charts and video would at least potentially violate OPSEC. Why is that level of detail really necessary? What Yon doesn't understand is that his core readership comes to his site for tales of bravery and for a sense of what's going on at the boot level. We don't need to know where the units are stationed, what maneuvers they are undertaking, or exactly where the Blue and Red forces are.

24

I almost never offer an opinion in these situations, because I'm just not military and haven't earned the right.

What do you mean? That you're not military and therefore not qualified to formulate an opinion? Or you're not military so you don't offer your opinion because you feel it would be out of place?

25

when I spent some time in the Navy in the 70's and 80's I would tell my guys to "don't give someone a chance to be an a**hole".  What I meant was that if you mess with a senior enlisted or officer with your attitude or borderline behavior at some point someone will use their authority to mess with you.  Yes, you'll call them an a**hole for it but it won't change your captians mast outcome.

Given the number of times Yon has been booted from embeds the odds are starting to weigh heavily in favor of Yon being the problem.  Maybe not, maybe every single one of the officers who booted him didn't play fair with him.  Every, single time ...

by the time you are on your third divorce it wears a little thin to blame your partner again  ...

26

Don Lemon over at CNN claims they have the tape which shows Tea Partiers saying the "N" word, but they won't show it.

 

 

27

In fairness, some of the stuff I've seen on Yon's site with detailed maps, charts and video would at least potentially violate OPSEC.

He's not an idiot, and has never once violated OPSEC as far as I know.

Any half-bright Taliban with a GMail account and a GPS-enabled cellphone can identify American units within a few meters anyway. They're not exactly hiding. The whole point is to be seen.* And his dispatches are generally posted long after any tactical engagements, thus rendering any spatial coordinates useless to the enemy.

*American line soldiers kill with speed and precision, not with stealth. The SF guys do the ninja stuff. The infantry units are there to put down a big footprint, and to be seen putting down a bit footprint.

 

28

Gonzo journalism from the front?  I like it. 

Yon's rants sound like those of a fatigued man, maybe even burned out,  -- but that doesn't mean one can discount the message.

29 Certainly not the first time Yon's got his tit in the wringer.

Remember this...

In August, during a fierce firefight in downtown Mosul, Yon and witnesses say he picked up an M4 rifle, reloaded and fired three times at insurgents inside a shop as two of the battalion leaders lay wounded nearby. That's a no-no for embedded journalists, and it brought a stern reprimand from the Army.

I didn't blame him for doing this, but he does have a long-standing tendency to cheese off the Army bureaucracy.

30

Don Lemon over at CNN claims they have the tape which shows Tea Partiers saying the "N" word, but they won't show it.

Yeah, well, I know at least five people who have "confirmed sightings" of Bigfoot on tape, but still the proof remains elusive....

If they won't show it, they don't have jack shit. (And even if they *do* have it, I'm betting it's either a) a fraud, or b) some video-editing shenanigans. (Or tape from that white-supremacist rally last week that CNN helpfully conflates with the "tea partiers".)

 

31 I've long been a fan of Yon's writing, but it seems like he's freaking out more than a little bit. Pissing on everyone around him, including other milbloggers, is probably not in anyone's best interest, especially his. Access is his only marketable commodity. If he throws that away, he'll only hurt himself. He's got some serious persecution complex going on right now.

32 I almost never offer an opinion in these situations, because I'm just not military and haven't earned the right.

That's right chickenhawk! Unless you've kept the western world safe from your rear echelon cubicle like I did, you have no RIGHT to say anything supportive of the war. Only REMF's like me can rightly say "screw them"

33

I think there's just too many unknowns on why Yon got disembedded to pass judgement. Neither side seems to believe the official story that he was  removed to make space for other journalists.

That being said, Yon has gone off the deep end since getting disembedded. Calling for McChrystal's resignation looks more like a prima donna hissy fit. Either way the current 'information war' being waged by both sides is just nonproductive Blue on Blue.

This feud needs to end.

34 "In August, during a fierce firefight in downtown Mosul, Yon and witnesses say he picked up an M4 rifle, reloaded and fired three times at insurgents inside a shop as two of the battalion leaders lay wounded nearby. That's a no-no for embedded journalists, and it brought a stern reprimand from the Army."

And the sane reaction is to demand the rules be changed and the leaders issuing the reprimand to be relieved.  You have to decide to actually give a shit about this terrible rule.

If someone is shooting at you, and you have access to a gun and defend yourself, that's not wrong.  Rules that say it is should be amended.

35 Don Lemon over at CNN claims they have the tape which shows Tea Partiers saying the "N" word, but they won't show it.

I have a 10 inch dick, but I can't show you. It's indisputable because I work for the most trusted name in news

36 Hey, I thought this was a "smart military blog".

37 "Neither side seems to believe the official story that he was  removed to make space for other journalists."

Agreed.  That's important.  The government is obviously lying.

And they will happily lie again when they come up with a better excuse.  Probably some complicated crap about OPSEC and Yon discussing a map that was obsolete.  If they muddy it up enough, it's too hard to debunk like their last lie.

And no, Yon ain't throwing a hissy fit.  An honest man in that environment will constantly butt heads with politicians wearing brass. McChrystal's performance sucks right now.  God Bless him, but it sucks.

38 Don Lemon over at CNN claims they have the tape which shows Tea Partiers saying the "N" word, but they won't show it. Because CNN likes Tea Partiers so much?

39 I'm a fan of Yon's, but I heard first-hand from my son (Army infantry) in Afghanistan that he is not liked by all, including the grunts. Their complaints are: (1) Yon has divulged sensitive information in his public reporting, and (2) Yon complains to command when he doesn't get what he wants, getting good people in trouble with their leadership when they are just doing their job.

This is not something I wanted to hear, and is not consistent with what I readily see while reading his dispatches. But considering the source, I imagine a vacation and some self-examination may be in order for Michael.

40 We already know that liberals were going to film themselves at Tea Party rallies pretending to be conservative racists.  Who cares if CNN got a tape of that?

It's not relevant.

The democrats have all kinds of violent psychos and CNN doesn't care.  Come to think of it, it's amazing they would cover this story and hide Saddam's rape rooms.  Fuck CNN.

41 John Adams, I know it sucks, but Yon has to butt heads, even with people just doing their job.  I don't think he divulges sensitive info... I have been paying attention to that and understand the charge, but I think it's not correct.

I have no doubt an effective reported can be fucking annoying to the troops on the scene.  That's one of the many shitty things our grunts have to live with.

42 Michael Yon is a great writer and photographer.  He has written great photo-essays that are like a high protein meal!  I make monetary contributions to him on a monthly basis.

I was recently disturbed by his Facebook postings and his statements without the necessary detailed backup in his pi$$ing contests with the brass.  He may be right in his assertions, but snippets are not the correct venue for issues that he brings up.

Michael walks a tightrope in his reporting, especially in the war zone.  He needs to throttle back and think about the big picture before he goes off half cocked, especially on Facebook.  It is damaging his credibility, and that is a sad thing to happen to such a dedicated and talented journalist.

43 Both the Brits and the Army disembedded Yon over operational security concerns, so I sense a trend. Yon is good to have but he's pissing people off by giving advice where it's not wanted. He needs to spend a year at home.

44 The democrats have all kinds of violent psychos and CNN doesn't care.  Come to think of it, it's amazing they would cover this story and hide Saddam's rape rooms.  Fuck CNN.

We had to ignore a few things so we could keep our Baghdad office, so we could bring you news you can trust.

CNN: News as trustworthy as Larry King's marriage vows

45 Yon is pissing off the building and various parts of the command structure in A-stan, no shit. That is almost a guaranteed result of mixing an SFguy, press credentials, and an internet connection. If Yon really wants to piss them off, he needs to hook up with a hot defense appropriations committee or SASC staffer on the hill who is on her second or third divorce - then he would radioactive.

46

Yon's a go to guy for reports from the front, but he does have a history of acting a bit...maverick...shall we say?  Now that's part of his appeal to me, but I can see where the brass gets rubbed the wrong way by him.

He probably does need to take a break and decompress for a while -- so he can go right back at it.  I don't think he divulges sensitive material -- if he is, he certainly isn't as guilty as some other news sources (and I'd rather have a reporter doing a no-no like Yon's than what some of the AP pukes are up to).

Personally, I'll go on record as saying I'm not a fan of journalism at the front.

47 18 "because I'm just not military and haven't earned the right."

You have the right to an opinion, just not the knowledge base to make an informed one. Right has nothin' to do with it.
Posted by: tommylotto at April 20, 2010 03:12 PM (oHIHU)

Yeah that line bothered me as well. Of course every one here has a right to an opinion. We do live after all in a civilian republic. Now our opinions may be not be particularly informed but we still have an absolute right to them.

And as for Michael Yon - I've been a fan of his for several years and even given money to him a few times. But from my life experience when the same 'unlucky' thing happens to someone over and over in different situations and with different people, well then there's something up with that person. I don't know exactly what Michael's doing or not doing that gets him kicked out of embeds, but I'm pretty sure he needs a break for a while to recharge and maybe reflect on how he's been operating.

48 " I'll go on record as saying I'm not a fan of journalism at the front. Posted by: unknown jane"

Sounds reasonable, but I think Yon has completely helped get a story out that no one else did.  The people attacking Yon right now failed to accomplish what Yon did.  I think it's worth it.

I know much more about what it is to serve in Afghanistan because of Yon, who is simply a heroic man.  I forgive him for being pissed at brass like any heroic man would be at times.

49 The left has really done a good job with the chickenhawk bullshit.

they know that people in most government positions are liberals, and few people with military love are antiwar.

So they tell us we are somehow immoral for supporting or opining on war unless we are vets or antiwar.

That's horrible.

50 Yeah that line bothered me as well. Of course every one here has a right to an opinion. We do live after all in a civilian republic. Now our opinions may be not be particularly informed but we still have an absolute right to them.

By that criteria, you can't say Michael Bolton sucks because you're not in the music business.

51 I think what Ace was saying was that he was poorly equipped to judge who was right, and who was wrong in this flap. A lack of experience in the area leaves him less able to make a fair judgment call.

52

Yon has and still does some great work-but even Ernie Pyle needed a break now and then. It is surely extremely difficult to remain detached in a war zone.

I can't blame the guy, when shit is flying at you, it is hard not to put yourself in the forefront of your worldview. You see something you feel is is screwed up in your little corner of the crappy part of the world you are in, it is easy to extrapolate that problem until you are blaming everybody this side of God.

He needs to play by the rules, report, and let his readers do the pissing and moaning for him.

53 I agree with Jimbo and the two Jeffs, above, as Michael's had other problems with embedding elsewhere and with authority that's upset Canadian milbloggers too. (And this post in particular on the point.) Maybe it is time for a rest?

54 I have a 10 inch dick, but I can't show you. It's indisputable because I work for the most trusted name in news

Posted by: Rick Dirty Sanchez at April 20, 2010 03:30 PM (sYxEE)

You too?

55 The fact alone that Yon has pissed off a lot of brass from various countries isn't enough to prove he's some kind of helper to terrorists who breaks Opsec like Geraldo.

Show me the information he gave that was timely to the enemy.  I know it's probably impossible not to break some of the rules in place... hell, the main example I saw was Yon picking up a rifle and shooting terrorists so he didn't get killed.  So yeah, he broke some rules I don't give a shit about.

But show me the actual case against him where he helps the bad guys.  Otherwise, I almost demand he piss off the brass at times.  This is a hard effort where mistakes will need to be analyzed and career brass will have to be shamed and replaced from time to time.  Nature of the beast.

56

"I forgive him for being pissed at brass like any heroic man would be at times."

Me Too! He would be absolutely insane if he DIDN'T get pissed at the brass MOST of the time-

but he shouldn't let that affect his reporting, and he should play by the rules. He may need a break- he has been doing this a long time, that has to take a toll.

57 And that's Jimbo's argument.  Without actually showing me this breach of trust, he says that because so many brass from various places got sick of Yon, that the problem is Yon.

That's lazy argumentation.  It's actually kinda dishonorable and piling on an easy target, too.  Make your case.  Don't just say 'I guess the other people who didn't make their case outnumber this amazing journalist... that's my case!'.

I like Jimbo, but fuckin A.  And this isn't the only time I've noticed him kinda act cliquey.  Sometimes the blogosphere is too much like Jr High.

I don't doubt Yon is fallible, but we seem to have a fundamental problem in Afghanistan.  We need more people who piss the brass off analyzing the front line.

If Yon is pulled, I hope some great bloggers go.

58 And I'm sorry, but the element of "face" counts here.

Piling on Yon, seeing him humbled and boxed up and shipped home for a break so he gets that rest he needs implies he's wrong.

It shames him.

It's fucked up.

And I won't forgive the people who helped that happen.  If he's actually breaking opsec, show me.  But otherwise, this is extremely counterproductive, and the Jimbos will have a debt of honor to pay the milblogger effort, even if they like their room service.

59

Sentient Nintendo 64,

I must have missed the post where you posted where and when you served and with what branch.

60 Yon doesn't take orders from Generals anymore ?

That must really piss them off.

61 I served, nam 71.

you have my word.  I wasn't even a P.O.G.

But I also say fuck you to the idiots who hate our constitution.  The military belongs to the civilians, both vet and non vet, who want to criticize it from time to time.

It's not really fair, I realize, that the heroes have to answer to people who didn't do their duty.  I do think it's every able bodied American's duty to serve (but also think it's right that we do not legally require it).  That's probably controversial even here, but even those who free ride to freedom own our military and should outright speak our about it.

I don't need to tell you that I was a redleg to earn my right to have an opinion... in fact, I think people who require it are disgusting.

62 Yon or anyone spending years in a war setting will lose all detachment, engrossed in awareness of details. Call it burnout, but it's reality all the same. Though Yon may certainly be out of place saying what he's saying about the General, there would yet be elements of truth in his message, even if distorted. As Obama puts it, "whether we like it or not," McChrystal et al. are Obama's men until the grafty bastard leaves office. And who in their right mind really believes that Jihadists hearts and minds can be won over by PC warfare or even bribes?

63 It's because he's a wild card.  With no network affiliation PIO's can "pin" him to a certian POV and thus fear him.

64 "McChrystal et al. are Obama's men until the grafty bastard leaves office."

You have a strong point.  I know some people are mad about some of Petraeus's words lately too, but McChrystal and Petraeus are serving the US President and to lesser extent, military oversight committees.  It's on them (and us, who vote) to get the generals to perform.

I do not think Afghanistan is being run very well right now.  I still know the men who lead the military probably would have had a much better life in the private sector.  I don't bash the soldier who trips and isn't perfect, and I  don't blame the generals when it's the president's responsibility. 

Doesn't change the fact that McChrystal can be criticized over Afghanistan.  I wonder how much of our problems right now are due to him juggling that conflict with the wishes of a commander in chief who probably is difficult to work for.

I encourage him to speak out about it when he has a chance, the way Red Mike Edson did.

65 Damn what a douche Nam 71 is.   Damn what a douchey and sneering attack on the American Constitution. 

Fuckin' A, I bet he bitches about Education without having been a teacher, or about Health Care issues without being a doctor, or about Mortgage fraud without being a banker.

Fuckin A.  I just happen to be a vet, but I really wish I hadn't acknowledged it.  There's no reason to dignify such a cowardly attack as 'I must have missed where you posts a pic of your ribbons and DD-214!'

I didn't serve for the right to bitch.  I served because I love my country.  How dare someone tell me that my service is what gives me the right to speak out. 

66 Yeah, Ace is back.

67 I'm former military and a former milblogger that knows B5, Uncle Jimbo, and several others.  I support Yon 100%, Something stinks in Afghanistan with McChrystal, abandoning troop positions, counter-manding his own deployment orders for a certain Brigade and having ROE's that are crippling to soldiers.  Yon has been trying to expose this insanity and is getting a kick in the nuts for it.  NOW, people in the Milblog community that I once looked at as friends are piling on this poor guy who is trying to get the information to us that the CG in Afghanistan is in over his head.  What Yon has to say might not be the ground truth, but if my choice is between Yon and a jackass like Jimbo who put's his ego into everything he types, then I choose Yon.  I am saddened to see so many Milbloggers drink the McChrystal Kool Aid though........I served, I earned the right to criticize bad leadership as well as call out my brothers and sisters for being jackasses to the one guy that has given us pretty much unvarnished truth.

68 #19

I resent the fact that you think anyone went off "half cocked". Many of us spent the weekend discussing it as evidenced by the number of Milblogs which mentioned the issue all at the same time on the same day.  It's not like we all woke up Monday morning and started blasting away.

69 All I did as piss off a Major, by telling him the truth, and that ended any chance I'd have stayed in the Marine Corps.  You'd have thought I screwed his daughter, just for telling him I didn't think anybody wanted to get up on Saturdays and drill...  I suspect having a General irritated with you is worse. 

Right and wrong don't matter.  Yon would have better luck fighting gravity. 

70 ArizonaHaole

Thanks for serving. 

You're kinda shooting me in the foot, man.  You have earned insight into the military and are more credible on military topics if you use it wisely, but you didn't need to earn your right to criticize bad leadership.  We can judge criticism on its own feet instead of deciding who outranks who.  Yon's amazing coverage is obviously much better because he knows what he's talking about from his heroic resume.  Same for Jimbo, even if I disagree with him on this and his general ego problem (he's still a great blog to read, and I'm not perfect either).

I just am tired of the chickenhawk thing.  People who use that line of reasoning are enemies of the basic principles the military swears to defend.

71 "9

I resent the fact that you think anyone went off "half cocked". Many of us spent the weekend discussing it as evidenced by the number of Milblogs which mentioned the issue all at the same time on the same day.  It's not like we all woke up Monday morning and started blasting away.

Posted by: Jonn Lilyea at April 20, 2010 05:31 PM (PXLXp)"

I don't see how what day the charge was made makes it more or less half cocked.

It was half cocked.  Saying you have some secret source about real problems with Yon, and not laying them out, is half cocked.  Yon's right about McChrystal's leadership.  That's not a personal attack on him... he's a proven leader with a solid record, but something is wrong with this command, perhaps because of the men over McChrystal.

But trusting this current leadership is the wrong path.  We need to criticize it and figure out a change of approach.  I know a lot of the milbloggers on a certain side are being pretty vicious to Yon and that's one side of the thin skinned coin, so I am not too surprised that they would be pissed that someone is pointing out their half cocked bullshit.

I went out of my way to be respectful of Jimbo despite my different opinion.  If that's not good enough for you, I don't really care.  Sorry.

72 The weird thing about all this, to me, is that Yon's tirade against McChrystal is out of character. I understand that Facebook might make Yon sloppier (because it's more immediate), but this kind of rant is not something I've seen before. Even when he'd been dis-embedded.

It makes me think that something serious is up -- whether with Yon personally, or something he hasn't reported yet, I don't know. The more I think about it, the less I like it.

Hopefully, we'll hear more soon, one way or the other.

73 Fair enough SN64.....I wasn't trying to use my service as a club.....I just wanted to point out that I served and have been to Iraq (more than once).  I used to read Uncle Jimbo but recently it has just gotten unbearable.  He has never embedded, has been out quite a while now, and hasn't been to any theater in the war.  Given those facts, I find him criticizing Yon to be irritating at the least and back stabbing at the worst.  Armchair warriors (now, UJ was once a snake eater himself) are the ultimate irony.  They will run to the barricades to shout down those they disagree with, but won't investigate for themselves to see if the object of their scorn is telling the truth.

74 "It makes me think that something serious is up -- whether with Yon personally, or something he hasn't reported yet, I don't know. The more I think about it, the less I like it."

Sorry to spam this thread, but you nailed a major thing here that is part of my problem with the reaction I'm seeing.

Yon went way out of character and he's built up a lot of credibility for the way he handles information.  I think he's saying there's something serious, and I think he's more than earned some fucking respect.  Enough to not send him preachy 'wake up calls' from those who have a close relationship with the people being criticized by Yon.

But I must have missed your Green deployment sheet and dental records from PERSCOM.

75 " Fair enough SN64.....I wasn't trying to use my service as a club.....I just wanted to point out that I served"
That's clear, and I know you didn't mean any wrong.  Just annoyed about that shit.

76 McChrystal has been a problem for a while.  Granted I'm just an enlisted veteran, ex analyst, but the decisions that McChrystal is making aren't reflecting the facts on the ground as I have seen them with my own Mk2 Eyeballs.  Strange movement of troops, the oppressive ROE's now, it is all very strange.  I'm not in charge there are many things I don't know, but what I do know about Afghanistan makes these orders all the stranger......Yon I think knows something and is being pummeled for it.  Has anyone in the history of milblogging ever seen someone get turned on by friends like this before?  I haven't......

77 Jonn Lilyea has a great blog, by the way, even if I don't appreciate some of the bullshit from a group I guess she's claiming as her own.

78

McChrystal has been trying to usurp the authority of  President Obama for months now - remember how hard McChrystal pushed him to get enough troops? When Yon says McChrystal needs to be watched that's what he really means, that McChrystal is trying to undermine the authority of the duly elected commander in chief. Yon has been trying to expose this insanity and is getting a kick in the nuts for it.  NOW, people in the Milblog community that I once looked at as friends are piling on this poor guy who is trying to get the information to us that the CG in Afghanistan is in over his head.  What Yon has to say might not be the ground truth, but if my choice is between Yon and a jackass like Jimbo who put's his ego into everything he types, then I choose Yon.  I am saddened to see so many Milbloggers drink the McChrystal Kool Aid though........I served, I earned the right to criticize bad leadership as well as call out my brothers and sisters for being jackasses to the one guy that has given us pretty much unvarnished truth.

79 "I'm just not military and haven't earned the right." - Ace -

That's OK I suppose but here in the USA, we believe in civilian control of the military so we're ENTITLED to have at least opinions about what the military is doing and to express them.

 I'm not saying they're NOT treating Yon correctly, I'm just saying that it's OK to ask some questions and form an opinion about the subject. Particularly since there appears to be high ranking Officers involved. (The higher the rank the more likely it is that they can manipulate/order other officers to take what seem to be legitimate actions in retaliation).

It's important for the military to be held accountable by the citizenry for it's actions and the good ones will be the first to agree about that. The bad ones or those with bad judgment will see their actions as for the good of the service, whether it is or not. They need to be exposed as if they are willing to cut corners to cut off bad press, they are also very likely cutting corners to hide bad decisions.

80 78.......  I loathe Obama so I'm not sure why you are using my words.......

81 Wasn't one of Yon's tactless themes his opinion that the US was losing Iraq?

82 "Wasn't one of Yon's tactless themes his opinion that the US was losing Iraq?
Posted by: Druid"

Yon was right on Iraq.  He's part of what fixed it.

War is ugly.  You're usually losing at some point and need to adjust.  That's reality and it's no mark of shame to say that.  It's not like he said it was unwinnable.

But again, make your case instead of just asserting something vague.

83 He's not an idiot, and has never once violated OPSEC as far as I know.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

84
Then you haven't been paying attention.

Posted by: Cassandra at April 20, 2010 06:36 PM (oSDvp)

Let's see some links.  My take is that people are saying he provided untimely information that wasn't newsworthy to the enemy, but that's a very serious charge and deserves analysis.  If Yon really did screw up, and this isn't trumped up bullshit from friends of the command, let's see it.  Of course, if that's the issue, sure sounds strange that they listed an entirely different reason before that was debunked.

85 Shouldn't you gentlemen be posting at Jimbo's rather than here to really make your point?

I'd also recommend the comments section there to you for viewpoints, pro and con, many from people who know him personally and not just as commenters. [See you--I'm gone for the night.]

86 War is ugly.  You're usually losing at some point and need to adjust.  That's reality and it's no mark of shame to say that.  It's not like he said it was unwinnable.

But again, make your case instead of just asserting something vague.
Posted by: Sentient Nintendo 64

I meant exactly what I wrote - Wasn't one of Yon's tactless themes his opinion that the US was losing Iraq? - You confirmed that it was. Thank you.

Yon made some enemies by speaking his mind (in fact a fair professional opinion) in the past. Time proved him correct. How many chiming in on this debate remember that part about him being correct rather than PC in his Iraq fau pax? (sorry, my spelling is terrible)

87 "I meant exactly what I wrote - Wasn't one of Yon's tactless themes his opinion that the US was losing Iraq? - You confirmed that it was. Thank you.

Yon made some enemies by speaking his mind (in fact a fair professional opinion) in the past. Time proved him correct. How many chiming in on this debate remember that part about him being correct rather than PC in his Iraq fau pax? (sorry, my spelling is terrible)


Posted by: Druid"

You damn piece of shit.  You make a claim, and I say, even if you're right, which you haven't backed up with evidence, there's nothing wrong with pointing out that we were losing Iraq at some point.

I never corroborated what you said.  You've probably never even read Yon's blog.

I'm calling you out, Druid.  BACK UP YOUR ALLEGATIONS.  It's easy to do, if you aren't a liar.  Shouldn't take you more than ten minutes. 

88 "many from people who know him personally and not just as commenters.  Posted by: andycanuc"

That kind sounds like a hit and run, but perhaps that's not how you meant it.  This blog is a little more credible on military matters than Jimbo is.  Even though I really like Jimbo's work sometimes, he's not reliable when it gets into catfights or ego matters... which brings us to your argument:

I don't understand why it would matter that some commenters know Jimbo personally.  He's a great guy and a patriot, but he's making charges against Yon.  Those charges are not bolstered because he's your friend.

No one here is backing those charges up with any kind of evidence.

89 I almost never offer an opinion in these situations, because I'm just not military and haven't earned the right.

Horseshit.

90 You damn piece of shit.  You make a claim, and I say, even if you're right, which you haven't backed up with evidence, there's nothing wrong with pointing out that we were losing Iraq at some point.

I never corroborated what you said.  You've probably never even read Yon's blog.

I'm calling you out, Druid.  BACK UP YOUR ALLEGATIONS.  It's easy to do, if you aren't a liar.  Shouldn't take you more than ten minutes. 
Posted by: Sentient Nintendo 64

You really should cut back on the caffeine...

Yon pissed off many by saying in that Iraq was in a civil war (My bad - not the same as the US losing, is it) back in early 2005. In 2006, to the annoyance of many, he said we were losing in Afghanistan.  In 2007, to the annoyance of many, he was the first "reporter" to claim the success of “the Surge.” Yon, to the annoyance of many, is still out on Afghanistan.

91

After reading Jimbo's post, as well as those other milbloggers he linked to, AND the quotes from Yon himself, it's pretty clear that Mr. Yon needs some serious downtime.  Time to relax, recoup and generally reenergize.  He's been at this for years now, and frankly I think the guy is burned out.

Doing the monkey poo thing on McChrystal, the PIOs, etc, is not wise and he's been out there long enough to know this.  Yet he does it anyway.  Something is not right here.  Sure, as a "member of the media", he can criticize higher command's actions, decisions, etc.  But this is just a little too over the top. 

Another thing all and sundry need to keep in mind here is that we don't have Bush as CinC anymore.  Now it's narcissistic Marxist asshole Obambi; a non-trivial difference.  If A-stan is becoming a mess, you can bet the TOTUS is at the heart of it.

No, Yon needs to take a vacation and come back at this fresh.

92 You damn piece of shit.  You make a claim, and I say, even if you're right, which you haven't backed up with evidence...

You mean, like saying McChrstal iz teh poopiez?

Point is , Mike Yon says McChrstal iz teh poopies, and for some reason you believe he's saying something that supports your feelings about Afghanistan, when all Mike said is essentially "McChrystal iz teh poopies." As I tried to point out above, but you're too damn blind to see, that could be for any number of reasons, including McChrystal bucks Obama. I suspect if that's the case you're going to turn on Mike Yon at something close to the speed of light.

Now, if McChrystal is indeed teh poopies as Mike Yon assures us on Facebook, I think anyone with three remaining brain cells can only respond "gosh Mike, damn shame you waited to be dis-embedded to say that. Kind of raises obvious question about you."

Obvious to most people except Sentient Nintendo 64.

93 "Yon pissed off many by saying in that Iraq was in a civil war (My bad - not the same as the US losing, is it) back in early 2005. In 2006, to the annoyance of many, he said we were losing in Afghanistan. In 2007, to the annoyance of many, he was the first "reporter" to claim the success of “the Surge.” Yon, to the annoyance of many, is still out on Afghanistan. " You aren't backing up any kind of claim that his credibility is suspect. I don't see what it matters that inferiors who aren't on the scene get stories wrong or get to them late. Typical loser who refuse to back up your claims. You know, it doesn't matter that he annoyed you... you repeatedly claim he said this stuff, and you can't back it up because you're probably lying, and even if you're right, it sounds like he was right on every fucking charge. What a fucking douche. Cave Bear, I don't see why this meme is spreading so universally. Maybe the dude is tired, and maybe Obama is to blame for McChrystal's problems... they are still problems that it looks like McChrystal's friends are trying to hide by a pretty clearly orchestrated and coordinated smear campaign. They lied about not having room, and now are saying he's some opsec leaker. And now, he's crazy and tired and needs a break. That's obviously meant to make him look like a kook who retreats in shame. Anyway, maybe you're right, but I'd like to see evidence. Jimbo has a real problem with his ego, as so many have said, and he's too close to the target of criticism.

94 "I almost never offer an opinion in these situations, because I'm just not military and haven't earned the right."

Ace,
I keep hearing this chicken hawk bullshit from the left.
If you're an American, you have the right to say it.
If you have something intelligent to say,
SAY IT.

95 Who cares if Sullivan and Cromwell are representing Goldman Sachs? In my opinion, Goldman is packed with criminals so corrupt, they make Enron look like a church choir. Justice demands Goldman be dissolved, just like Arthur Anderson.

96 Looks like we got us some new trolls here.

97

Since Obama took office, the ROE situation in Afghanistan has become an absolute clusterfuck.  Obama insists that “winning isnÂ’t necessarily a goal”, and his dicked-up foreign policy reflects that.  His idiotic campaign to fight “negative stereotypes of Islam” totally ignores the realities of the violent, ideological religion. I feel so sorry for the military troops still serving under this assclown.

Allowing Michael to get kicked to the curb is a big mistake on McCrystalÂ’s part. The troops need more dedicated, loyal journalists like him to continue reporting the news that the leftwing MSM either slants or refuses to publish.  

Congratulations, General McCrystal.  How does it feel to be an Obama tool?

The higher-ups added gasoline to this fire by dismissing him without a valid reason. If they didnÂ’t like what he reported, they should have the guts to say so.

98 "Yon pissed off many by saying in that Iraq was in a civil war (My bad - not the same as the US losing, is it) back in early 2005. In 2006, to the annoyance of many, he said we were losing in Afghanistan. In 2007, to the annoyance of many, he was the first "reporter" to claim the success of “the Surge.” Yon, to the annoyance of many, is still out on Afghanistan."

You aren't backing up any kind of claim that his credibility is suspect.

Posted by: Lenient Playstation at April 20, 2010 09:04 PM

Actually the above in quotes is a paraphrase from Yon's own webpage 'about me' - controversial shiite he said which was prescient.

I do not claim anything he wrote is suspect, politically tactless, yes. But then again, blowing smoke up ass is not in the job description of any member of the military (never mind the snake-eaters), at least until they hit O-6, then blowing suckin' and kissen' ass become become the full time occupation just like any other politician. Others obviously feel otherwise... (on a tangent - hence the DADT policy - such submissive obsequiousness confuses things...)

I give him credibility - where a certain B5 poster's diatribes uses the word 'lie' several times in every sentence.

99

Congratulations, General McCrystal.  How does it feel to be an Obama tool?

Posted by: SFC MAC at April 20, 2010 10:08 PM

See right there - submissive obsequiousness confuses things.

100 I don't understand why it would matter that some commenters know Jimbo personally.
No, I meant who know Michael Yon personally and aren't just fans of his blog and good work and have seen a change in him over the past year.

101

See right there - submissive obsequiousness confuses things.

Posted by: Druid at April 20, 2010 10:13 PM (Oe01r)

Say again, over?  All I'm saying is that McCrystal likely got pressured from higher up.

102 All I'm saying is that McCrystal likely got pressured from higher up.

Overwhelmingly concur - just a play on the recent DADT policy issues and the fact that some commanders, maybe even the CiC, are quite overt in their insistence on surrounding themselves with yesmen - gotta be hard if you for one with the integrity to call a bucket of shit a bucket of shit and all you get is "Wrong answer - is a pot o' gold - say it!".

103 2 I've long been a fan of Yon, more his photography than his writing, but I suspect after something like 5 years in war zones, it might be time for him to take a break

I.agree, but I don't think he can; I think he's shell shocked.  He becoming mentally attached to the people he's assigned with, and he's seeing them maimed, dead and even sometimes dying.  He's witnessing some of the best people in the world have mental breakdowns, falling apart before his eyes.  The War is personal to him now, and he won't rest until he's reached (in his own view) a satisfactory conclusion.  One week he's at the ass end of the earth with grunts getting blow'd up, the next he's in Nijmegen with Top Brass and air conditioning and running water, followed next by a spell out on his own and left to his own devices, taking pictures all the while.  He's crazy to have gone, he's crazy to have as lasted as long as he has; I don't know how a sane person could have done any of what he's been able to document. 

He's also alone.  When I was in the service, there was always someone else there: who's he got?

I hope he has the strength left to make his own peace, before he's consumed.

104 Blogrot has it right at #104.

I know his prior training makes him better than most at operating 'on an island', but this has been a few years now.

I couldn't have gotten through my last deployment without my squadron-mates and some McChrystal-forbidden homemade hootch. Yon lacks even those support mechanisms.

I respect his work, but I agree with some others--something is fucked up in the chain of command. Not sure if it is Obama - McChrystal, but I know for sure Obama - Karzai ain't working right now.

Also, no one has mentioned the still murky political plans of Gen. Petraeus.

105 " I don't understand why it would matter that some commenters know Jimbo personally.
No, I meant who know Michael Yon personally and aren't just fans of his blog and good work and have seen a change in him over the past year.

Posted by: andycanuck at April 20, 2010 10:17 PM (ocax6)"

I apologize, I didn't understand. 

Hey, the dude has been in a warzone for 5 years and people who know him personally are telling him to take a break.  I am not going to attack those folks.

I shouldn't even attack Jimbo in the mild way I point out my issue with his tenor.  Not a big deal.  I think it would be a big loss of face to be put on some kind of absence after making charges like this, that would really fuck up his credibility.  I'm interested in preserving his credibility because so few really show a willingness to make the harsh assessments we seem to need more of.

On the other hand, Yon can do a lot of that stuff stateside.  I don't know him personally, and I don't want to bash good folks.  The chickenhawk crap was extremely annoying, but other than that, I see the merit of the POV opposing mine.

106 druid, I probably owe you an apology too.  I think you kinda made your point a lot more clear later on than you did earlier, but whatever.

I think the real problem is that there needs to be 100 more Yons over in Afghanistan giving us lots more information.  That's probably why he's basically moved there permanently.  Of course, if there isn't room for even 1, then this is pointless.

107 Ya know, I've been supporting Yon since 05, and yes he has pissed in some boots. But he was on target with his assessment pre "Surge" and probably made some unfriends as a result. I'm not buying the last post on his site, it looked like a hack job of some type, and poorly done at that. He has never posted in that manner at any time in the past.

108 I follow Michael's Facebook page with interest. His recent and numerous postings regarding issues in Thailand have shown he needs to either take a break from it all or go back to the desert. His shallow views on complex problems tearing Thailand apart are worrisome and frankly the photos are not what they used to be. I hope he stays safe and puts his talents and energies to work where he can do some good.

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