1 I'd go to the mattresses over this issue. But that's just me.

2 The only real thing, as you say, that will keep this from passing is fear of the voters and respect for the rules. If democrats care about neither, we are screwed.

3 Notice it doesn't say what 'passed' means. We all assume it means a vote where the majority of members vote yes but that's not actually stated.

What am I supposed to think when government starts acting like this?

4 "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." -- Judge Learned Hand, 1944

5 BUT WE HAVE TO RAHM THIS THROUGH TO FIND OUT WHATS IN IT!!!!!!!!

6

If the Speaker of the House, the President Pro-tempore of the Senate and the President say it was passed and signed properly, the courts generally take their word for it.

 

Then why don't they just say everything has passed and not bother with any of this?

7 Uh, the Constitution does define what "pass" means.

"But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively."

8 Fucking great.  The last dem mother fucker in office needed to 'explain' what IS is.  Now THIS fucker is going to 'explain' to us what actually 'passing' a bill means?!

What the fuck.. TOO MANY LAWYERS!!

This is BULLSHIT! 

9 Time to lock Bayonets.

10 Even Hitler had a fucking real vote on the Enabling Law. What they don't get is that people see through this and have grown kind of fond of our Republic over the last couple centuries.

11
THAW: OBAMA TO APPEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON FOXNEWS; INTERVIEW WITH BRET BAIER ON 'SPECIAL REPORT' WEDS NITE...
Get ready for him to look like a petulant child in front of everyone.  He's just gonna go on and label FOXNews the enemy.  Rallying against the doctors and insurance industry hasn't worked so far, so now it's gonna be harping, "Are you for government takeover of healthcare industry... or for FOXNews?"

12
Most ethical congress ever!


*feeling sick*

13 Whether you voted for the Senate bill, or the House bill, or for the Slaughter rule--if you voted for government health care, your political career is over.  Enjoy your retirement.

14 Then it should be real easy to repeal it when the Pubs retake Congress, right? They can just decalre it null and void without a vote, as well as override any vetoes. Democracy rules!

15 If this does pass, I have doubts that it will ever be repealed but I think it is possible because it's so universally hated.

Besides repeal, the states can nullify it within their own borders but that will start fights with federal highway funds and Medicare assistance being the biggest guns. Will your state decide to give up all federal money in order to protect it's citizens from this monstrosity?

There is always civil disobedience and tax revolts as a last resort.

16 Well, they may not have ever taken up this issue before. But has anything this extra-constitutional ever been tried before. I think not. This would definitely increase the anger. And the phrase "Slaughter the Constitution"? Yeah, I can pretty much see the ads now. They've been writing themselves for the past year. A little chart with the unemployment rate since the Mediacrats took control of Congress in 2006. It would look real nice paired up with a Marxist, extra-constitutional job-killer like ZeroCare. Three words: REPEAL THE BILL. If this stupidity passes, I'm projecting +8 to +10 in the Senate and +60 to +80 in the House. But I'm kind of a pessimist.

17 Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States;

Yes, and if two different bills have passed one in the Senate and one in the House they still haven't passed both houses.

I have no confidence in the courage of the courts, but what Obama and co are considering is not only unconstitutional, but pure, unmitigated treason.

It is different in scale from suspending elections and bringing on martial law, but not in kind.

18 There is always civil disobedience and tax revolts as a last second-to-last resort.

19 Yeah, the supreme court may not actually overturn the bill based on the Slaughter rule, but boy would Scalia's dissent be epic.

20

Then it should be real easy to repeal it when the Pubs retake Congress, right? They can just decalre it null and void without a vote, as well as override any vetoes. Democracy rules!

What makes you think they will not block the swearing in of the next congress?

21

Here's Article I, Section 7 of the constitutuion:

All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

22 Damnitfuck...

23 Lampposts. All. Of. Them.

24 Well Drew, I disagree.  This slaughter rule thingy is blatently unconstitutional.  That, however, doesn't mean that the court will rule against it though.  Kelo is a fine example of commie jurisprudence. It would most likely breakdown again in a 5-4 split with Kennedy on the left side of the bed.

25 Wait till they go back to their districts to give 4th of July speeches-

26

Then why don't they just say everything has passed and not bother with any of this?

Posted by: robtron12 at March 16, 2010 12:19 PM (gue+Q)

I like the way you think. 

Hold on folks, we've got a better way to "pass" Obamacare

27 Well, they may not have ever taken up this issue before. But has anything this extra-constitutional ever been tried before. I think not.

Posted by: Fresh Air at March 16, 2010 12:23 PM (dkkRf)

FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court with hand-picked lackeys, so there is still that option open for Obama. I certainly wouldn't put it past him.

28 It appears that some prime target rich environments will be opening up in the inner cities in a few days.

29 Here's the link to Levin explaining why the Slaughter Solution is unconstitutional: http://bit.ly/aFgRBi

30

IF they succeed at this (the Slaughterhouse rule) then what would stop them from

1) deciding the Nov 2010 election has been "deemed" to have been held, and every democrat on the ballot in every state won???

2) declaring Obama president for life, the way Zelaya tried to do in Honduras?

 

Ignoring the constitution would get easier the second and third times they tried it. 

 

31 I hate these f-ers.

That's all I got.

32 Just before the collapse of a nation, there comes a point when the majority of its citizens no longer feels obliged to follow laws.  The government, and the laws they promulgate, are deemed illegitimate, and chaos ensues.

We are getting close to that point.

33 Perhaps if you changed the title of the column to "slaughter rule will most likely make it by the court" it would be more accurate.

34 Well FDR's move was not unconstitutional, even if The New Deal clearly was in the courts' eyes.

35

If this travesty does pass, then I will pull a Timmy Geitner and deem any taxes and penalties oweed as paid in full.  bastards.

36 Well, they may not have ever taken up this issue before. But has anything this extra-constitutional ever been tried before. I think not.

Well, along the same lines, we had a very, uh robust, discussions of the right of secession in the 1860s.

Of course, one can make a strong case for the right to secession based on American legal theory, one cannot make a serious argument that a bill can only pass one house of congress and become a law.

37 Countrysquire's point is right on. Whose names get entered as having voted for the Senate reconciliation bill? This ruling does absolutely nothing in terms of shielding the Critters from the voters. Plus, the Senate has already said they aren't sending over a reconciliation bill until the first bill is passed and signed. They can't declare a bill that doesn't exist to be "passed." Even Chicago aldermen wait until the bill exists before faking their votes.

38 The problem here is that people just won't follow unjust laws that have been passed with bribes and coercion in the dark of night behind closed doors.

The level of support now is low, but based on misunderstanding. When people find they will pay for 4 years of non-existent coverage they will have a fit. When they discover that this bill has caused the US to lose it's credit rating they will freak.

Also there is the force of self-preservation. Doctors will stop taking insurance. Stop taking medicare. People will refuse to pay the government for health care they are not getting and will not use. People will pay for their own health care & ignore the "penalties" imposed by this corrupt government.

Good God fearing people will become criminals. In huge numbers.

39 Civics/government for high school students, 2010 version:

The Constitution is a "living document," the proper interpretation of which can only made by Democrats.  Thus when the Constitution says that "a" bill can only become law if passed by both houses of congress, if Democrats control congress it's sufficient that one chamber pass a bill making, say, Mothers' Day a holiday, and the other chamber pass federal funding for abortions.  These two measures can then be blended in a process called "reconciliation", and the result sent to the presentdent for signing into law.

This is SOOoooo much more efficient than the "old" way, which required that both chambers of congress pass *identical* bills before something could be sent to the presentdent.  Can you imagine anything more stupid?

40

This is posted on Drudge: OBAMA TO APPEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON FOXNEWS; INTERVIEW WITH BRET BAIER ON 'SPECIAL REPORT' WEDS NITE...
Doesn't look like President CumStain has the votes in the House...Why would he come on Fox? Why no PMSNBC, OABC, OCBS, or ONBC ????  Things are not well in OBAMAVILLE BECAUSE ONCE THEY GO ON Easter Break, "The Dogs of War Will be Unleashed on the Dems in their Districts"

41 It's been covered before, but I believe the criminalization of EVERY FUCKING THING was by design.  The populace is now numb to the rule of law. And most of us probably commit several felonies a week unknowingly, which is real handy if you want to start rounding up dissidents.  Just sayin'

42 Also in Article 1 Section 7:

"But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively."

43 Slaughter solution? Never heard of it. But, dare I ask, is it in any way related to the tyrant King George?

44 Any law-talking guys know if States will be able to immediately and effectively "opt-out" by filing suit in their own SC's or by seeking a stay or something? Maybe get some decisions in their favor before the SCOTUS is even a consideration? Even years and years of paralysis would be better than the alternative.

45 The end result of the Slaughter Rule will be to pass the Senate bill. The fix won't pass the Senate as a reconciliation measure or a straight-up bill. The result will be an absolute "slaughter" of House Democrats in November - where is Nancy going to get the votes for this?

46 If they thought the townhalls were ugly this summer ...

47
I think it would kill Obama's re-election chances in 2012.  This is that big.

48 Is there going to be another Tea Party event in DC on April 15th this year?  If the dems take the Slaughterhouse option, DC might be the place to be for spring break.

49 By this maneuver the Democrats are showing that they hold the customs of consensual democracy in contempt. While the institutions of government may not be enough to constrain these bastards, there is still one final court of appeal and that's the voters.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

50 Well, it all depends on what the meaning of the word "vote" is. Heh heh, put some ice on that, honey.

51 Should you read Article 1 Section with precision it clearly states that the only names entered on the Journal is the "Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill." In our history this has only happened occasionally. John Kerry votes are the votes which prove the exception to the rule.

52

By this maneuver the Democrats are showing that they hold the customs of consensual democracy in contempt.

But the Q is, what are Americans prepared to do about it?  Storm the ballot box?

53 48
He's already said he's willing to be a one-termer.
This is the Holy Grail of statist-liberalism, Government involvement in EVERY FUCKING THING you do...cradle to grave.  They will do anything to get this passed.  And yes, Obama will blow himself up in the middle of our free market in order to get this done.

54

Is there going to be another Tea Party event in DC on April 15th this year?

I know there's going to be one in Indianapolis. I assume there will be in other cities, too. Check your local listings.

55

enoxo and Country Squire beat me to it, but YES.  Bills must be voted on with yeas or nays being recorded.  Note the strong and unequivocal wording of this phrase which qualifies the entire section:

"But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively"

ALL.  SUCH.  CASES.

Period. Full Stop. Fuck you very much.

Love and Kisses,

The Founding Fathers.

P.S.  strongly worded message follows.

56 This just illustrates what I've been saying for years. To liberals the rules are whatever the fuck they want them to be, whenever they want. You can't reason with people like that and the only way to deal with them is the same as you'd deal with an unruly 5 year old. Spank the shit out of them.

57 Good God fearing people will become criminals. In huge numbers.


That's one of their goals here.

58 This week Obama promised that he was going to stop talking about health care. Now they are saying easter. I wish there were a time limit on this. Does congress go home for easter?

59
They have to "vote" to enact the rule.  Those votes will be UP IN LIGHTS.

60 Is there anything liberals hate more than individual voices and freedom?

61 61
NASCAR?

62

Sorry, we forgot to define "Bill" as well as "is".

And I further apologize for grammatical errors in post 52. I have been spinning in my grave recently and the centrifugal force appears to affect my literary capacities.

63

It's hard to think of these people as anything but domestic enemies of the Constitution.

64 So then, when the R's have the majorities in both houses (even with Obama in the WH), all they have to do is "deem" Obamacare repealed, then when Obama vetos it all they have to do is "deem" they overcame the veto?

65 After reading this post I've come to the conclusion I should have taken more Valium last night. I won't make that mistake tonight.

66 Spank the shit out of them.

Yes, pwease!

67 This chapter from Absolved comes readily to mind.

68

Is there anything liberals hate more than individual voices and freedom?

Unborn babies

Deodorant

Physical labor

Combing their hair

Pickup trucks

Football

I could go on...

69 Uh, the Constitution does define what "pass" means.

Posted by: enoxo

Then why in hell did the D.C. Circuit court refuse to rule on it in 2005? I know their reasoning about interfering within another branch's procedures, but if it's unconstitutional then dammit.

70 1. I disagree with Drew on the reading, but I am no lawyer, but he is right this has never been done before and defies all tradition.

2. If they go this route and it is upheld in the SC, I unfortunately see real upheaval in this nation of the un-pretty kind.  Actual tar, feathers, pitchforks and torches.

3. I will probably go the John Galt route as much as I can. 

71 Just read a letter to the editior in the Wash Po. It was in response to a statement that compared the right to life agneda with the gay right agenda. The author took exception with that: Gay rights give rights and right to life takes them away. I read it twice to try to grasp the logic. Gives rights? Gives death. These people are too stupid to vote, rule, or even write a sentence that isn't rife with hypocrisy.

72 This is what happens when a bunch of idiots in congress deciding to be cute to cover their ass on a vote.  They ended up setting a godawful precedent which now allows Pelosi to use it for a major piece of legislation. 

73

"...But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively..."

 

From Art I Sec VII

74 I guess this no longer applies.

75 Oh, and I asked on another thread, how can the Repubs force a vote on the Slaughter Rule? I really don't know how they can do that.

76

Ayn Rand portrayed the people to be too stupid to revolt--they starved before they realized what was going on. I wonder if that is the case and if there are only a very few that would resist being plunged into the 7th century. At least there is more than one bridge across the Mississippi

77 Mal--it's been updated.

78 "But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively"

When you read it all in context, the part (the 'cases') refers to veto overrides.

Look at this...the Senate can pass bills by 'voice vote' according to the Senate website...

voice vote - A vote in which the Presiding Officer states the question, then asks those in favor and against to say "Yea" or "Nay," respectively, and announces the result according to his or her judgment. The names or numbers of Senators voting on each side are not recorded.

Emphasis mine.

I'm not agreeing with the Slaughter Solution, I say that in the first paragraph of the post. Alas, I'm not on the Supreme Court.

79 Does anyone feel that there is some serious desensitization going on? Like each day, the crazy shit they pull is just crazier enough, but not quite unimaginably crazier?

80 Notice it doesn't say what 'passed' means. We all assume it means a vote where the majority of members vote yes but that's not actually stated.

What am I supposed to think when government starts acting like this?

I'm not sure, can you clarify the definition of the word "is" for me again?

81 But I think as a point of procedure you can demand a name by name count

82 So then, when the R's have the majorities in both houses (even with Obama in the WH), all they have to do is "deem" Obamacare repealed, then when Obama vetos it all they have to do is "deem" they overcame the veto?

Posted by: opus at March 16, 2010 12:41 PM (IebeI)

Actually, this would make things easier.

The House could pass the "give liberal congressmen $1M dollars and rescind off shore drilling bans act", and the Sentate could pass the "free abortions for everyone and end HUD act" and then together they could deem they passed the "rescind off shore drilling bans and end HUD act." And they could get either Bush to sign it - the Constitution doesn't say *which* president has to sign it, right?

83 From what I can see this shit in DC has not hit the majority of folks yet, just by talking to reg. folks around me that are clueless as to what is about to befall them, when it does then we'll see what America is made of, just IMHO!

84

Here is something I don't get.  DrewM says that the courts are loath to get involved in deciding if the legislation is constitutional.

Yet the courts saw no problem getting involved when the Acorn defunding took place.  They had no problem saying that was a no-go, a bill of attainder.  I guess that the power of purse, which I thought was a pretty important constitutional thing that need to be respected, didn't need so much respect.

Yet the courts will respect this?

What the hell?

85 Rush just put out the #'s to capital hill live on the air!!!

86 This is a really bad idea. I mean is Petraeus insane? What does he think, that American military forces should be deployed on the West Bank? WTF?

87 So then, when the R's have the majorities in both houses (even with Obama in the WH), all they have to do is "deem" Obamacare repealed, then when Obama vetos it all they have to do is "deem" they overcame the veto? Posted by: opus at March 16, 2010 12:41 PM (IebeI) Damn you. Damn you to hell.

88 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

Thinking it's getting to be about time...

89 We are so boned.

90 So, if the dems claim they will stay through Easter recess, what will they give Mitch McConnell to agree and get back to where ever it is he goes for the holidays?

91 If Obamacare is signed into law only because of a House rule that "deems" it to pass, what happens if Republicans change the rules next session to "deem" it not to have passed?  Those rules allegedly carry over until they're changed, right?  That may at least invite the courts to come look at the log jam.  If nothing else, Republicans aren't required to fund any part of Obamacare and should lay the groundwork for impeaching the communist if he attempts any "workarounds."

92 Why would he come on Fox?

1) Because he knows that in one appearance on Fox he'll be seen by more people than by appearances on all the others combined.

2) Because he actually believes that he can convince people that passing this colossal turd is the "right thing to do".

93 91,

Only works if it's done in groups of 1 million or more my friend.

94 87

Here is something I don't get.  DrewM says that the courts are loath to get involved in deciding if the legislation is constitutional.

Posted by: Ed at March 16, 2010 12:51 PM (OCfDT)

 

SCOTUS got involved and smacked down McCain-Feingold.  But that was on the grounds that it violated the 1st amendment.  Maybe an argument can be made that Obamacare violates at least the intent of the bill of rights.  I dunno, I am not a lawyer.  But I did fry up some pretty darn good home cured bacon last night.

 

95 95,

The speech writers are filling trash cans as we type, no that won't work, no that won't work, damn fright wingers!

96

What the hell?

Posted by: Ed

The D.C. Circuit Court would not hear the case in 2005 because they're loath to interfere in another branch's internal procedures, not because they're loath to rule on laws.

97 In the past the language in the rule was voted on by by houses.  In this case the language in the rule was not voted on by the Senate.  One vote on the amendment plus the Senate bill in the House is different from the Senate vote.  Plus the Constitution does explicitly require a Yea, Nay roll call on all legislation.  The past use of this trick may have passed muster with the court because the House voted on language in the rule that was identical to the bill voted on in the Senate and sign by the President.  They can't have it both ways, the rule can only apply to the Senate bill and not include the House recon amendments if it can be considered identical to past use of this trick.

98

Hell, to tell you the truth, Article I, Section 7 doesn't seem to procribe any rule for voting in the House or Senate. The " But in all such Cases " part seems to apply to just the 2/3 override of the veto of the President.

Even if it applied to the passage of any bill, it still doesn't require a majority vote just a "shall be determined by Yeas and Nays", but it doesn't define how many yeas are necessary. Notice it has a requirement of 2/3 for an override. Certainly the Framers could have put in a "1/2 +1 for passage" rule for passage outside of the House or Senate, but they didn't. Unless there is another Article that covers it.

However, the Democrat Party should change their name to Autocrat Party to fully exemplify their new found powers.

99 85 the Constitution doesn't say *which* president has to sign it, right?

Cut. Jib. Newsletter.

100

When you read it all in context, the part (the 'cases') refers to veto overrides.

I don't think you are right about that Drew. There are two seperate actions laid out in the preceeding wording in the paragraph. Passing a bill and overriding a veto. The sentance you are referring to appears to qualify both passing a bill and overriding a veto saying they both must be voted on and recorded.  If your congressperson wasn't able to vote on the senate bill and that bill increased your taxes you would be taxes without representation. I think we had a fight with the British about that once and then had to spank them again when they came back whining about getting the ass whipped the first time.

As for the voice vote in the senate, one senator can object to that and then they have to have a recorded vote. I believe they have the same procedure in the house.

101 @ 78 Ayn Rand portrayed the people to be too stupid to revolt--they starved before they realized what was going on.

Of course, Ayn Rand also believed that no one was as smart as Ayn Rand.

102

Here is something I don't get.  DrewM says that the courts are loath to get involved in deciding if the legislation is constitutional.

Posted by: Ed at March 16, 2010 12:51 PM (OCfDT)

No, I said they aren't likely to get involved in the internal workings of Congress to produce a bill that eventually becomes law. They are more than happy to deal with the output of Congress (too eager in my opinion) but they generally and correctly I think, stay out of the internal workings of the co-equal branches.

103 Well, in the end the COTUS is words, just words. The day enough people think words like "freedom of speech" mean "you can't offend me," the game is over. Ask Mark Steyn, and he only got out by the skin of his teeth.

104

Besides repeal, the states can nullify it within their own borders but that will start fights with federal highway funds and Medicare assistance being the biggest guns. Will your state decide to give up all federal money in order to protect it's citizens from this monstrosity?

Start rounding up federal employees, convict them on charges of violating civil rights under color of law, and put them to work on chain gangs to fix the roads. Confiscate their property and federal government property, sell off to fund chain gangs.

105

 Does anyone feel that there is some serious desensitization going on? Like each day, the crazy shit they pull is just crazier enough, but not quite unimaginably crazier?

I'm about to where Obama would have to give Nancy Pelosi a handjob and then set an orphan on fire, all on live TV, before I thought it was unexpected.

Sorry for the mental image there. Had to be done. For emphasis.

106 18 There is always civil disobedience and tax revolts as a last second-to-last resort.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at March 16, 2010 12:25 PM (5aa4z)

 

Think about joing this facebook group.

107

OK, thanks DrewM and others.  Got the clairification.

108

Where, oh where will they get the votes?

 

RAHM: Thanks for coming in today.

FRESHMAN DEMOCRAT REPRESENTATIVE: No problem. What can I do for you?

RAHM: It's come to our attention that you're not sure how you're going to vote on the healthcare overhaul

FRESHMAN DEMOCRAT: It's not that I don't want it, Mr. Emmanuel. You know I do. You know I wanna help the bi...g guy out. But, you've seen the polls! I'm gonna get slaughtered if I vote yes!

RAHM: Let me paint a little picture for you. Let's say you vote no. And let's say we needed a yes from you. All of a sudden, and I can't tell you I can protect you from this, all of a sudden, the House Ethics Committe opens up a little investigation. And you're the prime target.

FRESHMAN DEMOCRAT: But I haven't done anything wrong!

RAHM: Hey, nobody said you did. But nobody said you didn't, either. I've got your FBI file here. I haven't looked at it, yet, but who knows what's in it?

FRESHMAN DEMOCRAT: My FBI file??

RAHM: It's standard procedure. Now, I can turn this over to the Ethics Committee, and suggest to them, it's nothing personal now, I can suggest to them to take a good hard look at you over the course of the next six, ten months...

FRESHMAN DEMOCRAT: But that would destroy my career! My family! My reputation!

RAHM: ...or, if I can get a solid 'yes' from you now on that healthcare bill, maybe we can arrange for you to make a soft landing after November?

FRESHMAN DEMOCRAT: ...so do you want your dead fish back, or what...?

109 It's becoming painfully clear that we've somehow managed to elect our enemies into office in Washington.

110 You know as a not very reformed "Birther", why do I find this whole discussion hauntingly familiar?

111 Actually, I think this is exactly the reason the SC would get involved.  If they go through with passing bills by "deeming" them passed.  What would stop the D's or R's, from passing all bills that way.  It goes against the Constitution.

112 I can see it now when the Republicans in the Senate press the Senate parliamentarian to declare that the House "reconciliation" package is out of order.

113 This all makes me sick to my stomach I am so mad. But hey it's not so bad. i am loosing weight.

114 This all depends on how the argument to the SCOTUS is framed.  Just because one case got dismissed doesn't mean that all subsequent cases like it get dismissed.  Every case is different.  I don't see why a Congressman can't file a suit with the SCOTUS and claim he or she was denied their right to vote on a bill.  I still get hung up on the part about how every name, yea or nay, has to be entered into a journal.  If that's not done in this case, then I don't know how it meets the requirements of the Constitution. 

115 Didn't the President JUST say he wanted a yes or no majority vote on this issue LAST WEEK?

116 As for the voice vote in the senate, one senator can object to that and then they have to have a recorded vote. I believe they have the same procedure in the house.
Posted by: robtr at March 16, 2010 12:58 PM (fwSHf)

Yes but not relevant. Sometimes Senators don't object.

Here's one example of a bill that was passed by voice vote (google the term for hundreds if not thousands more examples.

If you're reading is correct (and I don't see how it can be), there are a lot of unconstitutional laws out there. It maybe satisfying to think that but they are still in effect.

117 Does anyone feel that there is some serious desensitization going on? Like each day, the crazy shit they pull is just crazier enough, but not quite unimaginably crazier?


With absolutely no flippancy intended, I think it started with Bill Clinton. A BJ in the Oval Office? Peter Orszag dumping his pregnant girlfriend and simultaneously getting engaged to another girl, to public acclaim? We're wacked.

118 Didn't the President JUST say he wanted a yes or no majority vote on this issue LAST WEEK?

Posted by: looking closely at March 16, 2010 01:07 PM (PwGfd)

Psstht, that is like... so last week Dude!

119     Article 1    In addition to the procedure prescribed by the constitution, laws of the Reich may also be enacted by the government of the Reich. This includes the laws referred to by Articles 85 Paragraph 2 and Article 87 of the constitution.

    Article 2    Laws enacted by the government of the Reich may deviate from the constitution as long as they do not affect the institutions of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The rights of the President remain undisturbed.

    Article 3    Laws enacted by the Reich government shall be issued by the Chancellor and announced in the Reich Gazette. They shall take effect on the day following the announcement, unless they prescribe a different date. Articles 68 to 77 of the Constitution do not apply to laws enacted by the Reich government.

I like this.  This really works for me.  I might want to get Louise to look into using some of this.

120 I don't believe the premise of this piece.

If the Dems though they could just wave their magic wand, change the rules of procedure, and pass this sh#t sandwich without a vote, they'd already have done so.

There *HAS* to be a vote.

No vote = no law, and if Obama signs this into "law" without a vote, it won't be legal OR have legitimacy.

121 I am upset at the prospect that when this passes, the Congressional Democrats that voted No on this will get a pass from the electorate.  The same people who put Pelosi in as Speaker, Hoyer as Majority Leader,  Clyburn as Majority Whip, etc.

They chose in January of 2009 to lay down with dogs.  Now that they're itching they're looking for the flea shampoo.  But they're still laying with the dogs.

Vote them out anyway.

122 If you're reading is correct (and I don't see how it can be), there are a lot of unconstitutional laws out there. It maybe satisfying to think that but they are still in effect.
Posted by: DrewM.

By your own facts, only if a Senator objected to the voice vote and it went through anyway.

123 From Drudge:

THAW: OBAMA TO APPEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON FOXNEWS; INTERVIEW WITH BRET BAIER ON 'SPECIAL REPORT' WEDS NITE...

124 Heh, you can't use the word manuscript in yahoo comments without it getting filtered out. Why? Because it contain anus.

125 How I wish Krauthammer could hammer Barky on Fox tomorrow.  The msm keeps braying about how "brilliant" and "highly intelligent" the Jackass-in-Chief is.  Krauthammer could have Barky ummming and ahhhhing about 10 seconds into the interview. 

126 By your own facts, only if a Senator objected to the voice vote and it went through anyway.

I don't get your point.

There are voice votes where no one objects, no one's name is recorded in the journal and yet the bill still passes.

Are you saying every bill that passes by that procedure is unconstitutional?

127 This stuff is really pissing me off, but I'm consoled by the knowledge that when Republicans regain the House, they'll use the same hard-ball tactics and shut out the Dems as completely as they're being shut out.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, just kidding.

128 The GOP did something similar ? Shocking. Intrade still showing increased support for ObamaCare passing now at 75%_ You could have bought in 2 weeks ago at 30

129 Where is this "bill" anyway?

130

1. Dems know they are getting whacked in November anyway.

2. They also know the stock market crashes again before the November election.

3. They also know we are are facing a 10 year depression.

4. They will ram healthcare through while they can, however they can, and hope it can't be repealed. It's all they have left.

5. They hope to pick up the pieces in 2012 when things are much worse than now by blaming Republicans. 

6. They are bashing Israel now because they know war is coming in the Middle East.

Predictions:

 Deflation is coming. Cash will be king for years. The dollar moves up slowly in general for several years. Oil going below $20 a barrel within 24 months. Gold is dead money soon, after the next panic move gold goes back to around $1,000 and then nowhere for years. Housing continues to lose value for the next 24 months, losing another 15-20%. Commercial real estate will start crash by 2012, and will lose 50% of value from peak. Unemployment headed for 10.5% by November.

The forces causing the above are beyond the power of the FED or Obama. Dem policy is making things worse, but is not the proximate cause. The root causes have been 50 years in the making. The bills are coming due and the govt and Fed and world govts don't have enough bullets left. This won't be as bad as the '30s, but it will be very bad. Terrorism still on the rise also for the next 5-7 years.

Sorry. Prepare. Fortunes will be made by those who can hang on and conserve cash. That time is 7-10 years away.

131

Ayn Rand portrayed the people to be too stupid to revolt--they starved before they realized what was going on.

Of course, Ayn Rand also believed that no one was as smart as Ayn Rand.

 

And apparently, Ayn Rand needed to be batted around during sex in order to get off, if Dagny Taggart was any kind of auto-biographical reference.

132 OBAMA TO APPEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON FOXNEWS; INTERVIEW WITH BRET BAIER ON 'SPECIAL REPORT' Because he really needs to get out there and talk about how the time for talk is over.

133 #121

The books are FULL of unconstitutional laws.

At issue, though, is that most of them never get challenged.

Many of the ones that DO get challenged are ultimately disposed of without a determination about constitutionality, or are mistakenly NOT overturned.

And of course laws do get overturned.

Again, I can see the Dems trying procedural trickery to HIDE the vote on Obamacare.  They can mix the vote in with something else, or call the vote something different, but there still has to be "a" vote.  If not, then why are they still bothering to twist arms and whip votes?

134 Meremortal@135

Thanks.  I'll just be off killing myself. 

135 Gibbsy gonna speak in just a few minutes. Always entertaining.

136 call your congressman now....for every post you make here and elsewhere, you should be calling you congressman and telling him/her to vote no.....even if they are a definite yes vote.....

137

2 things:

Counting the ayes and nays deems passage of a bill.

Slaughterhouse 5 has no precedent.

138 140,

Nooooooo! We need you when the fight starts hon'.

139 The time for up or down votes is over.

140 Everyone I talk to is like giving up, feeling that no one is standing up for them, the American people.   One of my friends actually said "we need another Henry Clay, we need a great compromiser, we need someone to say 'hey you can't do this to the American people'.

141

And apparently, Ayn Rand needed to be batted around during sex in order to get off, if Dagny Taggart was any kind of auto-biographical reference.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 16, 2010 01:16 PM (xGIqT)

Uhm.  Don't they all?

142 THAW: OBAMA TO APPEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON FOXNEWS; INTERVIEW WITH BRET BAIER ON 'SPECIAL REPORT' WEDS NITE...


Wow. I'm really curious about what this recluse has to say.

143 Yep.  The way I've seen it explained is that it counts as a unanimous vote in favor.  So technically, everyone voted Aye on the measure.

Posted by: toby928 at March 16, 2010 01:17 PM (PD1tk)

Look at the quote from the Senate page...

The names or numbers of Senators voting on each side are not recorded.

Clearly that would violate a supposed requirement that "the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively"

Sorry but it's clear that requirement only applies to veto overrides.

144 That just declared YES vote guy you linked to is some piece of work: “The burden to me as someone who is fortunate enough to have health insurance is still hundreds of dollars each month," St. Onge said. "The mileage to and from 90 appointments last year, the co-pays for each of those visits and the co-pays for medications all add up. Now is the time for healthcare reform - for me, for other patients, and for anyone in the future whose life can be saved through early detection." So this guy pays no premiums and abuses the system by going to a doctor 90 times a year, then feels sorry for himself because he thinks he should get free transportation and shouldn't even lay out a few lousy bucks copay on the visits or drugs. Even it's jerks like him that make my healthcare so expensive (they have to make it up somewhere). But after thiking he's got a raw deal, he projects his fantasies onto the unread, 2700 page bill: Obamacare is a magic land where lemondrops fall from the sky. The more totalitarian a government becomes, the it talks about the utopia they have in store for you.

145

They dont care if they are re elected.  Nancy poo is busy finding them high paying lobbyist jobs after they are voted out.

This is all about a socialist utopia from here on out.. and securing dems in power...

Can you hear it yet?  Republicans want to take your SS and healthcare away! 

 

146 "150 THAW: OBAMA TO APPEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON FOXNEWS; INTERVIEW WITH BRET BAIER ON 'SPECIAL REPORT' WEDS NITE...


Wow. I'm really curious about what this recluse has to say.

Posted by: Undecided Voter at March 16, 2010 01:21 PM (DI+vn)"

When I was told this I got so sad.  We are going to lose Brett Beier just like o'really became an administration lap dog after his exclusive interview.

147 Just wait until the rest of the world says noooo we can't afford to let America become communist!!

148

Uhm.  Don't they all?

No, only some.  The rest of them seem to have the urge to pockmark your chest and abdomen with stiletto heel marks and spank your satchel with a stainless steel wire grill brush.

At least, that's been my experience.

149 If and when this passes, I sure hope I don't hear any of the moderate 52 complain when the results start to bite. Not sure who makes me angrier, the Democrats who are doing this or their moderate enablers who were so proud of voting for hope and change and being able to brag to their lefty friends about how they couldn't abide Sarah Palin either.

150

Can you hear it yet?  Republicans want to take your SS and healthcare away! 

Posted by: Timbo at March 16, 2010 01:22 PM (7GgDy)

Yeah, if they pass it, and this argument works immediately, then we are well and truly lost.

151 the reality is democracy requires a respect for institutions, customs and shared understandings

Well that's the whole problem in dealing with the Left, now isn't it?

They respect nothing. Not rules, nor customs, nor institutions, nor the rule of law.

Certainly not honor and fair play.

So what are we left with here? It occurs to me that the more a society has to lose, the easier it is to subjugate them.

Now, when someone has NOTHING to lose, it becomes a different story. I suggest everyone make a list of all who are responsible for this treachery. Not just the legislators, but also the liars and propagandists who carried their water.

It doesn't have to be everyone. Just the ones who live close to you. The ones you have access to.

You may want that list someday when you're denied care and have nothing left to lose.

152 156,

I love wimmenz, they are fun, you are hanging out in the wrong places. LOL

153 this mixed up bag of crap doesn't want anyone to vote on anything...he wants to reign supreme and he will shove this down our throats.....CALL YOU CONGRESSMAN NOW!

154 137 I could tell some Boy's State stories where the Chair tried the In the Opinion of the Chair route and them wouldn't recognize me as calling for a Roll Call even though I was standing right in front of him.

There's a youtube video of Jack Murtha doing the same.

155 Fox News saying Dem whip claims they don't have the votes.As if that still matters.

156

Posted by: Meremortal at March 16, 2010 01:15 PM (GBuu0)

Here's my prediction for 2010 & 2012:

Reps gain the house...just barely, and Reps just miss getting back the Senate

by 2012 the media is scrambling to protect Obama, the left's hysteria of Obama's failure is worse, MSNBC is on the verge of collapse w/ Olbermann probably already gone, and the tea parties have merged into the Republican party with a strong conservative message. Romney is most likely the nominee, but whoever it is will have a strong anti Obama and anti nanny state direction that will help them. Obama will have a DNC speech based on blaming republicans while the Republican nominee bashes the hell out of Obama and gets a huge bump in the polls for it. Come election night 2012, Obama is at the worst at 35%, at the most at 45%. Obama loses just like Kerry did in 2004, except this time he loses PA & maybe even MI. Maybe even a surprise in NJ or DE. Depending on the nominee, MN or even MA are doable. Obama will then leave w/ the legacy of Jimmy Carter 2.0

157

Coffin cannot square his analysis with teh requirement foir passing identical bills found in the line item veto case.

Slaughter is unconstitutional, at least 4 justices will accept mandamus on it, and if the libs on the Court have half a brain, they'd strike it down so fast heads would spin.

158 the reality is democracy requires a respect for institutions, customs and shared understandings

Well that's the whole problem in dealing with the Left, now isn't it?

They respect nothing. Not rules, nor customs, nor institutions, nor the rule of law.

Posted by: Warden at March 16, 2010 01:25 PM (TIGTh)

That and the Rs do have some small measure of respect for same.  Between that and the tendency to become big gummint liberals once you get to DC, it's an uphill battle for Republicans.  Even Republicans with spines, and convictions.

159

Warden, I've been keeping such a list for years, but in an effort to streamline my bureacracy, I'm only writing the names of those who will be safe in The Protected Rolls.

The rest will taste the jackboot.

160 I won't be watching Bret tomorrow.  I've grown to hate Teh Won so much I can't stand the sound of his voice or that ugly face with the nose up in the air.

Went for a walk with the husband before dinner last night.  I told him for the first time in my adult life I'm afraid for my country.  I've e-mailed, written, called, and shown up at a tea party.  I've given my only child to the U.S. Marines.  I'm just really sad, tired, angry and all out of ideas.

However, I will personally kick the ass of the next smug Obama-worshipping jackass who ever dares get in my face and brag about how he's "changed" my country.

That is all.

161 >"he Slaughter Solution Will Probably Pass Constitutional Muster"
Well, to be clear, I think Shannen Coffin isn't saying that the Slaughter solution is constitutional; in fact she's saying she believes the opposite.

Instead, she's making the point that DESPITE the fact that its illegal, the Federal judiciary may be reluctant to interfere because it generally won't get involved in internal Senate process.

So that point made, due to the exceptionally high profile of this case and created precedent, I think it would still get reviewed.

The potential violation of the black-letter of the constitution might compel a review.  The SCOTUS, for example, probably wouldn't care HOW a vote was conducted on a bill, but I think it would care if there was NEVER a vote.

This is a deadly serious issue.  If Queen Pelosi can just "deem" bills into law without a vote, the entire legislative process is bypassed and bankrupt, and the entire electorate is effectively disenfranchised.   I would hope that the SCOTUS would want to at least take a good look at that sort of thing.

162 When I was told this I got so sad.  We are going to lose Brett Beier just like o'really became an administration lap dog after his exclusive interview.

That's exactly how it worked with the Alien chick and the reporter in V . So that must mean the Dems want to eat us. (metaphorically they already are with taxes)

163 Dem whip claims they don't have the votes.

Votes? Never heard of it.

164

Here's one example of a bill that was passed by voice vote (google the term for hundreds if not thousands more examples.

LOL, did everyone take note of the caption at the bottom of that AP video; "Obama to push for new rules on earmarks".

Hahahahaha, more rhetoric under the bus.

165

OMFG!!! the Prius guy in the sidecar-link is awesome!!!

LMFAO.

 

166 167 fubar the only respect to customs the r's have left is to bend over and let the d's f'them over....... if the r's had rid themselves of the repeat turncoats of their party we wouldn't be in this mess

167 This article is misleading.  The measure that Pelosi and Slaughter lost on in 2005 wasn't a bill.  This crap sandwich that's being dealt with in the House is a bill.  Apples and oranges...

168 When I was told this I got so sad.  We are going to lose Brett Beier just like o'really became an administration lap dog after his exclusive interview.

O'Reilly has really given some softball interviews w/ democrats since that interview; but he has hammered the hell out of cap and tax and Obamacare

169 169,

Janey,

Now is not the time to quit but to get started, we can do this, and when the smoke clears progs will never hold office again, trust me.

170

The rest will taste the jackboot stiletto heel.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 16, 2010 01:28 PM (xGIqT)

171

Ignoring the constitution would get easier the second and third times they tried it. 

 

Posted by: Boots at March 16, 2010 12:29 PM (06JTY)

Why would you even think this is close to the first time, anyway?  This is what we tried to warn people who thought it best to intentionally ignore the Constitution and chose to let the question of the doubtful Constitutional eligibility of the Indonesian Imbecile (and it is clear that dual citizens are not included in the Constitutional class of 'natural born citizens') slide by.  The thread was pulled and now the whole sweater is unraveling.

172

We are going to lose Brett Beier just like o'really became an administration lap dog after his exclusive interview.

We never "had" Brett Beier

173 This post could be summed up in four words- "Ask forgiveness, not permission."

As a lawyer, I often say that although law is made to limit behavior, the most law is made to get around those limits.  Hence, the Constituiton, a limiting document with 200 plus years of case law expanding it.

Politics is FILLED with social engineering line-crossers.  Borderline psychopathic agenda-driven thugs committed to their own advancement or the advancement of their cause n matter the cost to the rest of us.

We are very quickly coming to a point where elections will not solve this. I believe we are already there, we just haven't fully realized it yet.  Democrats losing recent elections did not solve this. Alleged blue dog centrists did not solve this.  Peaceful protests in D.C. did not solve this.  "Higher education" doesn't solve this. "Watchdog media" doesn't solve this.  Cheer-leading talk show hosts don't solve this.  The most crushing Democrat defeat in Nov. will not solve this.  The fear of said defeat will not solve this. The hollow election promises of "conservative" Republicans will not solve this.  The fear of economic collapse will not solve this.  Now a Supreme Court challenge is not a solution either.

That leaves very few possible solutions, none of them peaceful.

174 #170

Me. . .whoops.  Shannen Coffin is a man (baby).

He's (curiously) married to a woman who also has a gender-ambiguous name (Casey).

Sorry Mr. Coffin!  Please don't sic Cheney on me!

175 "174

OMFG!!! the Prius guy in the sidecar-link is awesome!!!

LMFAO.

 

Posted by: dananjcon at March 16, 2010 01:31 PM (pr+up)"

Have always owned toyotas and hondas and only one dodge.  You almost feel as though the media and the gummint are trying ot get rid of the competition.  Which si exactly what they will do when their health care bill passes.  What employer isn't going to pay a fine that costs them less than your healthcare and tell you to go and buy your own health care.

176

Just idly wondering question of the moment:

How many times will water carriers for this travesty use the term "at the end of the day" over the next four days?

177 So we have a Congress and a President willing to pass an all encompassing law that effects every man woman and child in the USA (except themselves, of course) that no one has read in its entirety, costs more than they say it will, and does less than keeping the status quo, and they are willing to do it on a procedural gimmick never before used in the history of the US? If that is recipe for disaster, I don't know what is. This is not what I pledge allegiance to. As a matter of fact, I am duty bound to oppose it. My oath still means something to me.

178 I won't be watching Bret tomorrow.  I've grown to hate Teh Won so much I can't stand the sound of his voice or that ugly face with the nose up in the air.

His favorables have gone down to the low 50's and are nearing the 40's, that's pretty bad, even Dubya who left w/ a 34% approval rating and polled as bad as 26% at one point, always had good personal favorables

OT: just heard an Alan Colmes clip on the radio, he openly advocates for healthcare for all, open borders, and abortion on demand. Hell in his world we'd have full blown anarchy w/ no responsibilities

179 143 call your congressman now....for every post you make here and elsewhere, you should be calling you congressman and telling him/her to vote no.....even if they are a definite yes vote.....

Posted by: call your congressman now! at March 16, 2010 01:20 PM (ucxC/)

Mine's Louise Slaughter. Tell me where that's going to get me.

180 Shannen Coffin and his wife Casey are two of my best friends.

181 #178

The worst thing about this entire sordid mess is that yeah, the Dems will lose votes over 1 or *maybe* 2 election cycles, if this passes, then the pendulum will inevitably swing the other way.

New idiot Dem candidates will step forward, legitimately claiming "I had nothing to do with that Obamacare vote", and with the public's short attention span and memory, they'll get elected.

182 Can the republicans force them to mandate this same crap for them and their families or else not have it pass period?

183 It was Constitutional Muster in the Shower with the Lead Pipe.

184

Mine's Louise Slaughter. Tell me where that's going to get me.

It's okay, I'll talk you through it.  When she gets on the phone, you say, "Look, bitch..." and then get as much off your chest as you can while her handset descends towards the cradle.

185 Do any states have the right to make their citizens exempt from this monstrosity? Say, TX, for example.

186 On CNN last night I saw what the entire fuss is about. It seems Americans want to live longer than Europeans. All the medical costs of old people in the US is too high.  In Europe, when you get old enough, you die.  You do not spend the last year of your life being kept alive.  They were "proffesours" and other liberals thinkers, so they must be right!

187

It was Constitutional Muster in the Shower with the Lead Pipe Tickle Feather.

FIFY

188 It was Constitutional Muster in the Shower with the Lead Pipe. Lead is toxic!

189 The Slaughter maneuver is clearly, blatantly unconstitutional.
But I thought the same thing about McCain-Feingold when that was passed.

190

"Notice it doesn't say what 'passed' means. We all assume it means a vote where the majority of members vote yes but that's not actually stated."

Isn't it established precedent what a “vote” means?  What you suggest that a legislative “rule” could change that and the courts wouldnÂ’t act is unfathomable.

191

Drew,

If what you are saying is true and the reference about the Supreme Court refusing to look past the signature of the Speaker of the House is valid then what keeps the Speaker of the House from on her own deeming whatever bill she wants as passed without a vote of any kind? 

What you are saying and what Slaughter is saying is that you don't need to vote on a bill, all you have to do is deem it passed. You are also saying there is no requirement in the constitution of what passed means ergo according to your intrepretation of the constitution whatever Pelosi deems as passed has passed the congress. If you are relying only on the first sentance there is no vote required by the constitution.

192 Do any states have the right to make their citizens exempt from this monstrosity? Say, TX, for example.

Posted by: M80B at March 16, 2010 01:42 PM (J46Fi)

That's exactly what Arizona Prop 101 was all about in 2008.  It lost by 0.4%, but that was before Washington was taken over by lunatics and launched this all-out assault on America.  As of now, there are something like 15 states with referenda or bills in the pipeline to claim the states' 10th amendment rights and proscribe the federal government from dictating the health insurance choices of state citizens.

But ... I think it's far too late for that, and there is no trust left in the federal government, which is now a feral government.  The Union has been broken.  It's only a matter of time for it to actually come apart.

193 Why does the Monte Python movie scene remind me of this? I guess with the "stimulus package" there are going to be jobs for people hitting the streets to collect, while yelling "Bring out your dead".

I think I am going to apply for a job there!

194 We ahve a whole different circumstance. We ahev a bill that will affect this country in far bigger ways than any bill before it. We have a court that was just openly chastised and Mocked whilst sitting in the house. That could spell some room for judicial interpretation of the term PASSED in tehc osntitution. Since it is the Supreme's job to interpret the cosntitution, they just might do that and once and for all let us know that PASSED means a vot was taken by the body and a majority voted yes.

195 176 has it right. So does McConnell.

196 God forgive my typos above....not the best on the keys and in a hurry to boot!

197 202 Say, though, that the citizens of a state voted to be exempt, or that their legislature did the same. What would the federal government do, & would they try to seize that state due to the same being "rogue" (in their minds, anyway)? 

198 This is what we tried to warn people who thought it best to intentionally ignore the Constitution and chose to let the question of the doubtful Constitutional eligibility of the Indonesian Imbecile (and it is clear that dual citizens are not included in the Constitutional class of 'natural born citizens') slide by.

Well, we deem him to have been born here.  And shut up.

199 They may take our heathcare but they will NEVER TAKE OUR FREE..... Wait what??? Oh nevermind.

200 185 "174

OMFG!!! the Prius guy in the sidecar-link is awesome!!!

LMFAO.

 

Posted by: dananjcon at March 16, 2010 01:31 PM (pr+up)"

Have always owned toyotas and hondas and only one dodge.  You almost feel as though the media and the gummint are trying ot get rid of the competition.  Which si exactly what they will do when their health care bill passes.  What employer isn't going to pay a fine that costs them less than your healthcare and tell you to go and buy your own health care.

Posted by: curious at March 16, 2010 01:34 PM (p302b)

I just got an 2010 Tacoma and all you have to do is firmly tap the gear shift to pop it into neutral, the camry's are similar, by buddy has an 08.

The ladies in my office (former hippies ironically) think i'm nuts when i tell them the government is trying to put toyota outta business.

201 This is just awful.

202

Mine's Louise Slaughter. Tell me where that's going to get me.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Meteor Summoner At Large at March 16, 2010 01:35 PM (erIg9)

Texas?  Utah?

203

I guess the bottom line is something I read many years ago but didn't understand until now.

When the Supreme Court told the Nixon White House that they had to turn over the Watergate tapes all they had to do was not comply. 

204 Say, though, that the citizens of a state voted to be exempt, or that their legislature did the same. What would the federal government do, & would they try to seize that state due to the same being "rogue" (in their minds, anyway)? 

Posted by: M80B at March 16, 2010 01:53 PM (J46Fi)

Then it becomes a fight between the federal judiciary and that state's judiciary ... and the federal judiciary inevitably wins that fight - and cheats ont he side of the federal government, too (going on past rulings of the federal judiciary, especially lately).  Then, the state secedes.

For the record, this is what Arizona Prop 101 (200 , an amendment to the state Constitution, said:

Text Of Proposed Amendment

Be it enacted by the People of Arizona:

1. Article II, Section 36: Constitution of Arizona is proposed to be added as follows if approved by the voters and on proclamation of the Governor:

ARTICLE II, SECTION 36. BECAUSE ALL PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR HEALTH CARE, NO LAW SHALL BE PASSED THAT RESTRICTS A PERSON'S FREEDOM OF CHOICE OF PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS OR PRIVATE PLANS OF ANY TYPE. NO LAW SHALL INTERFERE WITH A PERSON'S OR ENTITY'S RIGHT TO PAY DIRECTLY FOR LAWFUL MEDICAL SERVICES, NOR SHALL ANY LAW IMPOSE A PENALTY OR FINE, OF ANY TYPE, FOR CHOOSING TO OBTAIN OR DECLINE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE OR FOR PARTICIPATION IN ANY PARTICULAR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM OR PLAN.

205 We live in interesting times.

206

This entire process is Grand Guignol.

None of it matters. Forces beyond the Republicrat  / Demican One-Party System are afoot, and nothing Mau-Mau Man or his handlers or the RINOP do is gonna stop it from happening. Short list : economic reality bitch-slapping central banks around the globe, regional war over resources, a nuke-equipped Muzziedom ... coppische ?

For politicians ?  Two Tarp Protocol.  For the productive humans remaining, get ready. Paper money will be very useful - to wipe asses. Tangibles will rule. being a capable individual with REAL skills will trump "things"

I - sadly - agree with saltyron 182 ... the dynamic has reached critical mass, and the system is irretrievably pooched - both by parasitic entities and by sociopathic managers.

Soap box ( soon to be closed by Fairness ) 

Ballot box ?  Ha ! - a vote for the RINOP = a vote for Dims. See "Hegel"

Which may leave only as our last resort  the cartridge box

 

207

Do you think Pelosi is playing a game of chicken?

Pass it democratically and the people will just bitch.

Deem it passed and face possible violent upheaval.

How you gonna vote?

208 214 Then it becomes a fight between the federal judiciary and that state's judiciary ... and the federal judiciary inevitably wins that fight - and cheats ont he side of the federal government, too (going on past rulings of the federal judiciary, especially lately).  Then, the state secedes.

I could see the last part happening here, yes. But it's too bad that the courts below the SCOTUS are not more conservative. I believe that a suit against ObamaCare would have a better chance now than were it were the same situation (hypothetically) 10yrs ago.

209 Thomas Jefferson had this figured out almost 200 years ago . . .

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:39

210 214 ARTICLE II, SECTION 36. BECAUSE ALL PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR HEALTH CARE, NO LAW SHALL BE PASSED THAT RESTRICTS A PERSON'S FREEDOM OF CHOICE OF PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS OR PRIVATE PLANS OF ANY TYPE. NO LAW SHALL INTERFERE WITH A PERSON'S OR ENTITY'S RIGHT TO PAY DIRECTLY FOR LAWFUL MEDICAL SERVICES, NOR SHALL ANY LAW IMPOSE A PENALTY OR FINE, OF ANY TYPE, FOR CHOOSING TO OBTAIN OR DECLINE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE OR FOR PARTICIPATION IN ANY PARTICULAR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM OR PLAN.

That didn't get passed how??? Voting against it is like denying your own rights to choose your own health care.

211 That didn't get passed how??? Voting against it is like denying your own rights to choose your own health care.

Posted by: M80B at March 16, 2010 02:10 PM (J46Fi)

That's the state that keeps voting McShame back in, so ...

On the bright(?) side, it only lost by less than a half of a percent.  I imagine the voting for it now would be quite different.

212 Again, if they thought they could get away with this, they would have done it already. The Democrats are between a rock and as hard place, and you pussies are calling this a fait accompli.  It's bulllshit. It's a fucking bluff.

213 Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 16, 2010 02:13 PM (mHQ7T)

I hope you're correct, but I have a lingering memory of Friday night and midnight votes for dead bills that the treasonous dems did manage to pass, as unpopular as they were at the time ...

The problem si that The Precedent is on a suicide mission and he is driving all of this.  The useful idiot dems thought that they were merely abetting the Indonesian Imbecile in the greatest theft in history, but they have since discovered that they are actually escorting the suicide bomber into the mall.  They are now committed, though, as they have already cast too many killer votes ... so they are now part of the suicide bombing - and enthusiatic parts, now.

214

When the Supreme Court told the Nixon White House that they had to turn over the Watergate tapes all they had to do was not comply. 

That is exactly what Andrew Jackson did when SCOTUS ruled in favor of the Cherokees.

215 @223  I'm with you.  This is bullshit, and will be deemed unconstitutional, if needed.

216 If anyone thinks the Slaughter Rule is insane, think of the interpretations awaiting us for the gargantuan bill, should it become law, and all of the committees and regulators it spawns.

The US is given clear warning ... once again.

217 223 Again, if they thought they could get away with this, they would have done it already. The Democrats are between a rock and as hard place, and you pussies are calling this a fait accompli.  It's bulllshit. It's a fucking bluff.

That's true. Perhaps they are trying to make us so weary that we'll eventually give in & let them pass it (or something). This is, what, their 5th try at passing this now?

218 If you are relying only on the first sentance there is no vote required by the constitution.
Posted by: robtr at March 16, 2010 01:45 PM (fwSHf)

What I'm saying is it's a Constitution and it doesn't cover every contingency. The founders didn't specifically put it in there because it would never have occurred to anyone that shit like this would be tried. Everyone knows a legislature votes...it's their reason for being.

The fact that it hasn't for well over 200 years, shows the founders were right no to put into the Constitution something so stunningly obvious. They just didn't anticipate this kind of crap.

But hey 200+ years is a hell of a run, it just might be over.

219

But hey 200+ years is a hell of a run, it just might be over.

 

Good game.  Way to hustle out there.

***pats America on the ass as it trudges past, towards the locker room***

220

Posted by: YRM at March 16, 2010 01:27 PM (rbtaB) (164)

Repubs could fall a little short on winning a majority in the House. Other than that I agree with your post. It's hard to imagine how Obama gets reelected. 

 

221 Assuming the worst happens, I'm trying to think of how I'd feel the moment I hear that the Slaughter sneak attack has been successful and that the "bill" has been "passed" and signed into law by our "President".
I hope I'm sitting comfortably on the patio enjoying a cool beverage, because it's a moment I'll remember forever.

222 It's hard to imagine how Obama gets reelected.

Posted by: Meremortal at March 16, 2010 02:28 PM (GBuu0)

Oh, were you planning on an election? Silly rabbit, election are for kids. The Democrats will just 'Deem' Obama re-elected.

223 Posted by: progressoverpeace at March 16, 2010 02:18 PM (A46hP)

The defeatist logic seems to be that they can't fail, because it means so much to the. That point is irrelevant. The only thing that means anything to them is power. They haven't thought this out. They're not that smart. Their advantage is that they have made this all about feelings. Bush helped them there with his compassionate conservatism.

But after two successful elections, they're already getting sloppy. They've been in the political wilderness for too long, and they've overreached. At this point, they are doing what they can get away with while they still have power. It's a gamble, but it's one they're willing to take.

Byron York was right. It's like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid or A Dog Day Afternoon. They're in the bank, and there's no way out but to try an escape with guns bl;azing. Every Single One of These Movies Ends the Outlaw Dies.

There is nothing lawful about the Slasughter House Rules.  I will take the opinion of William McConnell over Drew M.

224

All legal mumbo jumbo aside,

At what point do we as a people DEEM this process in breach of the Contract of Governance our founding Fathers put together?

 

What is to stop them from "Deem"ing whatever the hell they want as passed?

Where does this ride end?

225

Mine's Louise Slaughter. Tell me where that's going to get me.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Meteor Summoner At Large at March 16, 2010 01:35 PM (erIg9)

Well, you just call her or write her a nice little note and suggest that she go have a talk with Senator Ben Nelson and his wife about how wonderfully they were treated by their constituents after he reamed them. 

Then ask her if she and her family have already made plans to relocate if this abomination goes through, and if not, you might suggest that she start looking for a new place to live....

226

The voice vote is to save time, its done with legislation that is going to pass pretty much unopposed.  That was the deal with Bunning holding up the unemployment - he did not consent to the voice vote -  All Reid had to do was call for an actual vote and it would have passed - but somehow managed to convince everybody that a Senator in the minority party was holding up a bill all by himself.  Im sure you all knew that from the in-depth news reporting on it.

 

 

227 And Sharrukin is right. This is your last chance to keep the rules. If you let this slide, you might as well give the land back to the Indians and apologize for wasting everybody's time.

228 But hey 200+ years is a hell of a run, it just might be over.

Posted by: DrewM. at March 16, 2010 02:23 PM (9B5OK)

If that crap gets inacted into law by this kind of sleaziness maybe it's time for the Supreme Court to define what the word pass means. If it doesn't mean garnering a majority of votes then we can send all of congress home and bow to our new form of unrepresented government because they are no longer needed.

229 Maybe three Supremes would go for this. It's another fucking bluff, People.

230
I'm kinda thinking this Slaughter woman will be out of a job come November.

231 The defeatist logic seems to be that they can't fail, because it means so much to the. That point is irrelevant. The only thing that means anything to them is power. They haven't thought this out. They're not that smart. Their advantage is that they have made this all about feelings. Bush helped them there with his compassionate conservatism.

I agree.  But, I'm not saying that they can't fail, only that they have pulled so much outrageous shit that people would have laughed at the prospect of just a couple of years ago (like forcing Congress to vote on one of the most expensive bills ever, sight unseen on a Friday night - only to have The Precedent then jet off for vacation and not even bother signing it until Tuesday).  Once they managed this with the Porkulus, they thought that they could do anything they wanted, which is exactly what they've been doing.  Yes, the dems are idiots, but they have a complicit media and a pussified judiciary, so they are flying free.

Personally, I do worry about them passing this POS.

But after two successful elections, they're already getting sloppy. They've been in the political wilderness for too long, and they've overreached. At this point, they are doing what they can get away with while they still have power. It's a gamble, but it's one they're willing to take.

The problem is that whether they get this legislation passed or not is not even the main problem.  They are destroying our federal government in the process (which was the intention of The Precedent, to begin with - not passing legislation, as he couldn't care less about laws or governance or any of that).  The federal government has been involved in an all-out assault on the citizenry and that will take a huge toll on our nation's ability to govern itself, no matter what happens with the health scare and the 2010 elections.  Precedents have been set.  Taboos have been broken.  And none of them can be put back in the bottle.  This is the danger.  And this problem will just grow with time.

Byron York was right. It's like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid or A Dog Day Afternoon. They're in the bank, and there's no way out but to try an escape with guns bl;azing. Every Single One of These Movies Ends the Outlaw Dies.

But, they're going to take the US down with them.  This is not specific to health scare, but the way they have turned our federal government feral.

There is nothing lawful about the Slasughter House Rules.  I will take the opinion of William McConnell over Drew M.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at March 16, 2010 02:37 PM (mHQ7T)

Obviously, the Slaughter Rule is totally un-Constitutional.  Personally, I don't care what anyone else says about it.  The Constitution is quite clear on this point.  We are, with this, in the same position that Honduras was with Zelaya's coup attempt.  Of course, we know what The Precedent thought about that.

232 Section 5.

Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members, and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members, in such manner, and under such penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member.

Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question shall, at the desire of one fifth of those present, be entered on the journal.

Neither House, during the session of Congress, shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

 

 

233 Re #235 Tattoo De Plane
"There is nothing lawful about the Slasughter House Rules.  I will take the opinion of William McConnell over Drew M."

Unfortunately, this will be decided by Kennedy's Magic 8-Ball.  But, I take a little comfort in the SCOTUS recent decisions over the Second Amendment and the McCain-Feinstein ruling.

I just don't see the President letting this go if he loses this in the SCOTUS.
He has other options and at this point he will go all the way.

234 "Notice it doesn't say what 'passed' means." SO the strongest argument for the Slaughter Plan is, "That depends on what your definition of 'is' is..." Semanticist crap like that is supposed to trump the Constitution?

235 Just an update...

The request from General Petraeus for the Palestinian occupied territories, be brought within CENTCOM's region of operation was sent to JCS Chairman Mullen - and not directly to the White House.

236

242 Maybe three Supremes would go for this.

Diana Ross

Mary Wilson

Florence Ballard

uh excuse me there were only three originals!1!!!1!!!

237 (I don't know which thread peopel are posting in, so I'm posting this here as well as Gabe's.) 

Here's why it can't possibly be constitutional (assuming I am understanding correctly):

1) Senate has already passed Bill A, which the House hates.
2) House will pass Bill B which amends Bill A and "deem" Bill A passed.
3) Obama will sign Bill A into law.
4) The Senate will then use reconciliation rules to modify Bill A with amendments in Bill B.

In step number 3, Obama will be signing into law a Bill that did not and could not pass a vote in the house.

238 Read all of Looking Closely's comments in the Everything You Didn't Want to Know About the Slaughter Solution thread.

239 The 2005 "self-executing" procedure tried by the Republicans and opposed by Pelosi at that time, was, I believe, about a joint resolution, rather than a bill. These would then be 2 very different things. A joint resolution does not require a president's signature to become law. The "self-executing" rule has never been tried with any bill, much less a bill of such magnitude and I think its constitutionality can indeed be vigorously challenged.

240 I just don't see the President letting this go if he loses this in the SCOTUS.
He has other options, and at this point he will go all the way.

Well, duh, that's what they're paying him for. He just thought he could skate by on his good looks. Sedition and math are hard!

241 <3 u 249

242 Sorry, even with the dubious Four of the SCOTUS Nine, this will not be found constitutional.  This is one of the most basic elements of our Democracy, SCOTUS will ridicule this tactic.

243

Come next Apr 15, I'm submitting my tax return with a "Slaughter Rule" note attached, whereby I "deem my taxes for the year to have been paid" and the bastiches will be lucky I don't deem they owe me $10K.

 

244 If the Slaughter Rule is upheld, Republicans will be able to deem rape legal!

245 I'm a little rusty on my history, but isn't this basically the way that the Roman Republic unraveled? 

246

Is it just me? Who gives a rat's ass? Let Nancy employ the slaughter rule. What that does - is the bill doesn't become law immediately. What it does - is demonstrate what a bunch of power-grabbing pricksters the Democrats in the House are - and then it kicks the ball to the Senate for those Democrats to demonstrate their foolishness also.

This is complete win for us. What if the Senate can't agree on all the reconciliations? Won't that be hilarious? What do they do then? Come up with their own "Senate Slaughter Rule" and kick it back to the house? Come on, we could have a revival of "70's style" sitcoms brewing here.

247

Wow, the Founders were a bunch of dumbasses to think that they'd tell us to get a few hundred people into a legislative body to do absolutely fucking nothing in law except veto the President's votes. A bunch of superfluous douchebags who voted yay or nay for no reason because all that work could have been done by simply handing shit to the President with a handful of signatures on it.

 

The next thing Drew's going to tell us is that it's constitutional for the President to declare war and the judicial branch can legislate. Precedent and neo-Marxist prenumbras/emanations for all! Words, logic, and common sense mean nothing! Aklkksasjkkajsdjakdjhakhdeuaekuhfakeukhfkncdxncdc,mc...

248 Okay, soooo if the House passes an otherwise innocuous bill (say on the naming of a post office somewhere) that has attached a "self-executing rule" that declares whatever the next bill happens to pass the Senate, the House too will have deemed that bill to have passed, we consider this Constitutional???

Get a clue.

249 The Constitution most certainly DOES say what "pass" means.

And this ain't it.

250 Oh wait, I've got a much better hypothetical to highlight how ridiculous it is to assume that tricky-slick-lawyer-speak automatically renders the Constitution impotent. Imagine that the very first legislative act of a newly sworn in House Congress is a bill that mandates that for the remainder of that Congressional term all bills proposed by the President are deemed to be automatically passed by the House, and also that this law shall not be open to repeal by the current Congress.

Obviously the House would be abdicating outright its Constitutional responsibility - which is patently Unconstitutional as it would effectively transfer the entirety of its legislative authority to the executive branch. And yet this would be consistent with the stupid theory of "self-executing rules" deeming legislation to pass that has never been voted on by the House. I can hear the objection now: "But those would be pieces of legislation that the House doesn't even know about yet! We're only going to say it's Constitutional to 'deem' the passage of those bills of which the Congress already has explicit knowledge." Oh yeah? And where does it say in the Constitution that the Congress must have explicit knowledge of a bill before it can 'deem' the bill's passage?? Nowhere, you nitwits!
The obvious expectation laid out in Article I Section 7 of the Constitution is that bills will pass by direct vote. Though this expectation might be slickly 'interpreted' as being non-explicit; it is nonetheless crystal clear. When such crystal clear Constitutional expectations are ignored, you can easily arrive at Unconstitutional absurdities such as either or both of the chambers of Congress abdicating their powers, authorities, and responsibilities wholly to the President.
Fools! Fools!
Shall we next 'discuss' what the meaning of the word "is" is?

251

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