1 I acknowledge the need for a government and the obvious necessity of paying for one.

That's why we hate you Gabe.

(just kidding)

2 Won't affect me. I rarely by large tub-like bucket things.

3 Even under the current complicated income tax scheme, the taxpayer-voter has a pretty good idea of how much of his annual income gets sent off to Washington, D.C.

-------------------------

I disagree.

Under our current system, the idiotic average taxpayer says things like, "Yay! I got $200 on my tax refund!" They don't seem to notice the $6,000 they paid over the course of the year. That's why I favor doing away with withholding and making people actually cut that $6,000 check to Uncle Sam.

Under a consumption tax, everybody pays. Enough of this 50% of the populace getting off tax-free.

Fair Tax, coupled with abolition of the income tax. And buh-bye to the Infernal Revenue Service.

4 Couldn't agree with you more Gabe.

5

Instead of a VAT, we should impliment a national retail sales tax.  What is taxable at the state level should also be taxable at the federal level - in each of the 50 states.  The government should not collect the tax from the businesses, but from the 50 states and they are the only people who should be audited by the federal government.  There should be no federal audit of any business or person associated with the retail sales tax.

The benefit of a retail sales tax is that the whole tax is there at the retail level and people normally know the difference between the $50 shirt and the $5-10 (or 20) tax on that item.  Also, each person or entity who purchases retail goods or services will be paying the taxes.  Corporations are no longer taxed on earnings, they are taxed only on what they purchase retail (e.g. not as components to their products).  Individuals are not taxed on earnings and don't have to file any income tax returns.

A national retail sales tax is the way to go instead of a federal income tax or a VAT or some combination of these items.

6

Bonus item - for those proposing any sort of rebate, we'll need the IRS to either continue to monitor the entirety of everybody's income or to monitor everybody's purchases.

There is a reason the "Fair"Taxers try to wrap their version of the VAT in different verbiage.

7 The interesting thing, Gabe, is that here in Colorado, at least two ads against two GOP candidates talk (in a scary voice) about "how they want to impose a 23% tax on everything!" -- of course, without mentioning that said tax is in lieu of any income tax. Given that it's actually been the Dems pushing a VAT in the past few years, the intellectual dishonesty of the ads is breathtaking -- but then, it's the Dems and it's October.

8 Fuck taxes.  I think it was JP Morgan or one of the other eeeeevil robber barons who said that a man has no moral obligation to pay one cent more in taxes than he can get away with.   Here's a novel idea- cut spending.

I've always advocated moving tax day from April 15 to November 1, too.   I also think we should limit the number of days that Congress is permitted to meet, by statute, to less than three months a year, barring national emergency.  Keep the bastards out of Washington as much as possible and it'll restrict the damage they can do.

9 We've developed an even more efficient form of tax collection. Your checks get sent to us and we decide how much you can keep.

10 VATs are a good way to usurp tax power from lower governments. the thing TV people don't get is that every state has a unique tax scheme and a national VAT would either ruin the ability of state and local gov'ts to tax as they see fit or (and i think this is the plan) to make the VAT just an additional tax.

11

Fuck taxes.  I think it was JP Morgan or one of the other eeeeevil robber barons who said that a man has no moral obligation to pay one cent more in taxes than he can get away with.   Here's a novel idea- cut spending.

The goal of the VAT-taxers is to eliminate the cry to cut spending.

I've always advocated moving tax day from April 15 to November 1, too.   I also think we should limit the number of days that Congress is permitted to meet, by statute, to less than three months a year, barring national emergency.  Keep the bastards out of Washington as much as possible and it'll restrict the damage they can do.

It would take a Constitutional amendment to do that limiting, and 2/3rds of the Congresscritters will never agree to it.  I say move tax day to the first day of every month, and eliminate withholding.

12 We've developed an even more efficient form of tax collection. Your checks get sent to us and we decide how much you can keep.

Posted by: Britain at October 16, 2010 03:14 PM (ZXnUe)

That has to win the award for Brass Balls.  I can't imagine even the commiest lib trying to pull that here.

13 First off let me repeat, the "Fair" tax is a POS.

Second the VAT is a POS as well, chiefly because it is never implemented without being "in addition to an income tax".

Never ever agree to any new tax unless the old taxes are permanently eliminated first.

The only "fair" tax would be one that is a flat 10 or 15 percent, no deductions, and applied against all sources of income. It should also come with a requirement that the government not run a deficit budget except in a time of a declared war.

And then an extra percentage point is applied after the war dedicated to paying off the deficit. The budget is returned to that of the last non-war year and held at that value until the deficit is paid off. That point goes away automatically when the deficit is gone.

14 It's all a lie.

20 years after Connecticut passed the state income tax, we know have the biggest debt per capita.

It's proven fact  every God dam time. More taxes leads to more spending which leads to more debt.

My plan: Every pony up $8000 per year. That's a flat tax. Everything else is bullshit.

15

That has to win the award for Brass Balls.  I can't imagine even the commiest lib trying to pull that here.

If Teh Won gets a second term, and he somehow has a Rat-infested Congress, look for it.

Off-topic; how do you get the separating line in the reply?

16 Wouldn't matter. The black market would kill it in under a year.

17 As for Mitch Daniels I used to think he was pretty good. This is a major major strike against him. If it were implemented to me it would be a single source for qualification to RINOdom.

18

Posted by: Vic at October 16, 2010 03:21 PM

Good-idea winner!

19 Disagree, for at least four reasons:

(1) Right now, somewhere between 40% and 50% pay no federal income tax, and a VAT would remedy that. I'm not completely opposed to some form of progressive taxation, but the left half of the income bell curve needs to start kicking in at least something.

(2) The VAT could be altered to reward/punish certain activities, but the current tax structure already does that. We have gasoline taxes. We have income tax credits that reward certain activities and discourage others. Saying that the VAT could be used to shape consumption patterns is correct but not particularly relevant given that it's already happening.

(3) An income tax isn't necessarily any more "visible" than a VAT. You contend that people won't figure out how much tax they're paying if it shows up on sales receipts. I contend that income tax withholding isn't any more obvious. Do most people study their pay stubs? I don't; I just watch my online banking to see if my money has gone in. And this is related to my No. 4, which is...

(4) The current income tax scheme makes late-April a huge payday for most Americans. That's when they get their fat refund check, the single biggest check many of them will receive all year. People like getting that check, even though it's just returning what they overpaid without interest. I can't prove this, but I contend that many people don't worry about their withholding throughout the year because they know that they're going to get a lot of that back. Every time that April 15 rolls around, for most Americans that means that Uncle Sugar is cutting them a check. I have to assume that this puts them in a pretty good mood about the current federal taxation scheme.

Having said that, my biggest objection to a VAT is that the transition is going to punish the same people who always seem to get punished: the financially prudent. If you have any savings, prepare for that to get double-taxed. Every dollar currently in my savings account was already put through the tax wringer. I earned it as wages, and it was taxed at that time. Then I put it in the bank. Post-VAT, if I take it out and spend it, the government is taxing that money again.

20 The feds should be limited to a single form of tax, period. Pick one. Fees are dedicated to the item causing the fee. "Investments" like FICA are required to use the annual form that's already sent out to tabulate "You've put XXX into this, you've received YYY from it thus far, and you're expected to receive ZZZ before you reach the average age for death."

21 OT, but we've seen some great commentary contrasting the clusterfuck, bureaucratic handling of Katrina and BP and the government can fix it mentality, and the capitalist, can-do entrepreneurial approach to the Chilean mine collapse.

This column makes the contrast in the best way I've seen yet, beginning with the businessmen at the top of Chile's government (and in a liberal-leaning paper, no less).

22 Mitch  Daniels? Wow, I see him slipping off the scale on my respect-o-meter.

23 Off-topic; how do you get the separating line in the reply?

If you quote the comment -and- the commenter, it shows up every time you hit enter.

24 Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at October 16, 2010 03:25 PM (7v73e)

My solution would take care of all your objections and be better.

25 I disagree. Putting the VAT on a receipt puts it right in the face of every consumer because, well, it's right in the face of every consumer. Every single transaction will remind people how expensive their government is, and how much its costing them. You don't need to keep records of your receipt. It will be right there. Every time.

So, no, obscurity isn't intrinsically built in to a VAT.

Efficiency isn't bad because the money that's not wasted collecting taxes in our Byzantine system now is money that remains in the economy. Conservatives should applaud that. As well, we have to consider what the overall construction of the taxation plan is, as well as its goals. What are the motives involved? What sort of transparency and simplicity measures go along with it? What happens to money saved from those measures?

A VAT is neither good nor bad in itself. let's not get all wrapped around the axle about it before we consider what can come of it, and what we can demand it look like before it arrives.

And, remember, if conservatives are building the plan, even if it's imperfect, it will surely be better than the system we have now. I think Gabriel overlooks that point entirely.

26 The interesting thing, Gabe, is that here in Colorado, at least two ads against two GOP candidates talk (in a scary voice) about "how they want to impose a 23% tax on everything!" -- of course, without mentioning that said tax is in lieu of any income tax. Given that it's actually been the Dems pushing a VAT in the past few years, the intellectual dishonesty of the ads is breathtaking -- but then, it's the Dems and it's October.

Yeah, they're doing in Maryland, too, with Republican challenger Andy Harris - a Club for Growth guy.

27

The other thing a VAT does is raise the price of anything we produce, making us less competitive with foreign products.

Right now, a product imported only pays the Taxes of the country from which it is made... while our Native companies have to pay our business tax... making our products more expensive, and theirs less.

If we tax at the sales point ONLY, then then their products will be taxed at the business level, ours will not, BUT our Government will then equaly Tax All products, foreign and domestic.

The only thing I would carve out of a National Sales Tax, is 200K (and only 200K) for a home.  Everything else taxed evenly right across the boards, no exceptions, no rebates....

Our Exports would skyrocket, and our imports would decrease, putting more Americans to work.

28
Wouldn't that be a fine how-do-you-do!

The October Surprise -- the Republicans going along with a VAT.

29 Damn, great Michele Bachmann commercial just on!  It was about Clark's favorite letter: F.

30

Posted by: Jimmie at October 16, 2010 03:26 PM (Cc/az)

Except that it would increase the cost of anything we EXPORT... making us less competitive.

31 BTW great rant Gabe.  Here in Canada we have a de facto VAT (the GST) and high income taxes.  I'm glad Harper has scaled down the GST a little, but I wish it would go away, as well as the fact that there are double-taxes like the gas tax being on not the value of the gas, but on gas + GST.

32

It would take a Constitutional amendment to do that limiting, and 2/3rds of the Congresscritters will never agree to it.  

Posted by: steveegg at October 16, 2010 03:17 PM (51MkX)

I don't think it would: 20th Amendment

2. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

33
You are absolutely correct Vic, and with a flat tax, the scumbags in Congress wouldn't be able to cut side deals to benefit their cronies with tax deductions,  or play to any particular group, such as liberal lesbians with man-crushes on Michelle.

34 Am I the only one that tries to withhold as little as possible on my paycheck? I want my money *now* not a check from Uncle Sam later. That's interest free money Uncle Sam is getting loaned that *I* make.

35 My opposition to the VAT is that it's a new tax.  And a tax never goes away.  I present as evidence the MA state Meals Tax, which they collect even today, in order to help pay for WWII.

36
Okay, let me explain what everyone is missing.

You know how we have an illegal alien problem? And you know how the obvious thing to do first is to secure the border to stop the flow of illegals? Then we'll figure out to do with the illegals. Right? Right.

Well, we have a deficit/debt problem. The first thing we need to do is STOP SPENDING. Then we'll figure out how to reduce the debt, which will kinda magically lower itself when we stop friggin spending.

1) Stop spending.
2) Lower debt.

Not:
1) Keep spending
2) Tax our way out of debt.

37 The VAT will never replace another tax.  It will be laid atop all other taxes.

38
Instead of the democrat plan, which is a disaster, we need to be looking at ways to simplify the tax code by making it fair for all brackets (I like the flat tax idea), appropriate, and less punitive.  Our tax code is beyond ridiculous.  We must clean it up so that revenue to the government goes up...  AND properity and economic growth occur. 

Liberals are desperate to see the economy grow so they can take credit for it.  But they have no idea how to do it.  Dems understand fantasy unicorn world; but the real world?  - No clue unless it involves the tenants of communism.  Which is why the democrats are bashing whole businesses, the Chamber of Commerce, all industry, all corporations... etc.  The current democratic injection of fear into our lives will really help the economy recover!  oh yeah!  *laughs*

Democrats seem to think that punitive tax schemes are the only way to get the economy to grow.  which again, is laughable.

As for the VAT -
Yo Mitch Daniels - go back to the drawing board.

39 Posted by: Vic at October 16, 2010 03:21 PM

Bingo. We have a winner....

As frosting on Vic's cake, I'd like to see a Constitutional amendment mandating  where and how Congress can allocate money outside of wartime or periods of genuine national disaster. Said amendment should also forbid Congress rewarding itself and its buddyroos with sweetheart taxpayer-funded deals in terms of pensions, perks, etc. In short, government should be restricted to what the public gets in terms of health care, travel,pensions, etc. Finally, members of Congress should be held personally liable for budget overruns.

The only change I'd make to Vic's idea is this: The budget is returned to 80% of that of the last non-war year.

40 Posted by: AoSHQ's Truman North at October 16, 2010 03:33 PM (HLGCA)

I think we're still paying for a phone tax (or maybe it just ended finally) that was to pay for the Spanish-American War.

41 OT:

German Chancellor Merkel says "MultiKulti = Kaput"

42
The Florida State Turnpike was schedule to retire the bonds that built the pike many years past.  What could have gone wrong?  The legislature decided it was a great source of revenue to continue charging for access, and the turnpike fees remain in effect, or better stated, it's a slush fund for the dirt bags in Tallahassee.

43
Truman, and we'll still paying tolls on the damn Pike!

44
I think we're still paying for a phone tax (or maybe it just ended finally) that was to pay for the Spanish-American War.

I lost my leg in that war.

45
#3 - you do make a point;

Under a consumption tax, everybody pays. Enough of this 50% of the populace getting off tax-free.

Just about everyone should have to pay some tax. 
Heaping all tax on the productive and only the productive will only lead to the productive not being productive.  *hiccup*

46 Were these the very same conservative commentators who said since Obama couldn't be beat conservatives should just roll over and play dead. Yep, I am sure it was.

47 I'm opposed to giving government another revenue stream while it continues to waste money.

48 Truman, and we'll still paying tolls on the damn Pike!

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 16, 2010 03:36 PM (/ebqR)

Ditto the Pennsylvania Turnpike, the nation's first.  It was supposed to be free once the original tolls paid for its construction.  It quickly became a haven of Democrat political patronage of staggering proportions.  Every few years at least one member of the Turnpike Commission goes to jail.

49
I think we're still paying for a phone tax (or maybe it just ended finally) that was to pay for the Spanish-American War.

Posted by: Rum, Goddess of Doom at October 16, 2010 03:34 PM (YxBuk)

We're also paying the "Al Gore tax" or the Schools and Libraries Fund tax that pays for connectivity.  Gore bitched about the phone companies labeling it as Schools and Libraries tax, and all the phone companies caved and most call it a connectivity fee. 

It's actually the Al Gore Tax.

50 What bothers me about the VAT is that it taxes everything multiple times, at every stage wherein the "value" gets "added". It is a tax on the estimated market value added to a product or material at each stage of its manufacture or distribution, ultimately passed on to the consumer.

It is the hidden multipliers that will cause costs for everything to go up before we (as final consumers) get to see that last little bit added on at the cash register.

Every time a raw material - wood, wheat, iron ore, etc. - gets refined or shaped (from ore to ingot to , then needs to be passed on to the next person in the supply chain, it gets taxed, even if there is no possible other use for that material at that point. Improvements get added, and it moves on to the next link, and gets taxed again. Meanwhile, many businesses who wouldn't have had to worry about adding taxes before will have immediately increased costs of production, across the board.

The VAT will be the death knell to our economy in its current shape. Take away the personal income tax and add a national sales tax instead, and that can be shaped to be revenue-neutral or even -positive while still stimulating the economy more than any BS stimulus from the Gummint. It will also encourage savings and investment.

51 Taxes never go away and bureaucracies never die.  An unfortunate fact of live here in America.   

52 But I kept on fighting dammint, even while the rest of Dick Blumenthal was being treated in the field hospital.

53 41 OT:

German Chancellor Merkel says "MultiKulti = Kaput"

Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at October 16, 2010 03:35 PM (TPynd)

Well, she's correct.  It amuses me to look around at the ethnic enclave areas of the city of Denver.... how there are de facto Black, or Hispanic, or Asian, communities who have SELF SEGREGATED!

Or even worse, Look at Los Angeles...

This cultural trait is worldwide, and cross cultural... where people do self segregate due to Race/Culture.... and our Congress and States have even admitted it by Gerrymandering the Lines of Congressional Districts, to create Ethnic seats...

Yet, only White folks can be RAAAAACIST (note, the obligatory 5 A's).

54 Businesses, at least small ones, can cheat on VAT at least as easily as an income tax.  Plus, compliance s probably more of a nightmare.

Value added?  For each transaction? WHY is that an improvement?!

55 #48  Ditto the Pennsylvania Turnpike, the nation's first.  It was supposed to be free once the original tolls paid for its construction.  It quickly became a haven of Democrat political patronage of staggering proportions.  Every few years at least one member of the Turnpike Commission goes to jail.

Here's a recent example:

Pa. Turnpike Commission fires 12 over abuses

Officials at the Pennsylvania Turnpike have fired 12 employees in recent months as part of continuing investigations into theft, waste, and corruption.

56   I also think we should limit the number of days that Congress is permitted to meet, by statute, to less than three months a year,

They probably don't meet more than three months' worth of an average stiff's  workday..  They leave Washington on Thursdays and come back Tuesday.   They have recesses for anything and everything.  Add up the hours actually on the job, when congress is in session.

Plus they don't even do the work.  Their assistants write the legislation which they don't even take the trouble to read.

57 Isn't this just the equivalent of getting a chronic overspender on the verge of bankruptcy a new credit card?

58 45
#3 - you do make a point;

Under a consumption tax, everybody pays. Enough of this 50% of the populace getting off tax-free.

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at October 16, 2010 03:38 PM (0fzsA)

 

The battle cry of the Second American Revolution will be... "No Representation without Taxation!"

59 You could have stopped at "Mitch Daniels' suggestion".

60 Or even worse, Look at Los Angeles...

Nah, we're just Mexico Norte here.

61 Ya know, if all the damned Democrats actually paid their taxes *cough* Geitner, Congress *cough* we wouldn't have this problem. Democrats don't mind hiking taxes because they themselves don't have to pay them.

62

This cultural trait is worldwide, and cross cultural... where people do self segregate due to Race/Culture.... and our Congress and States have even admitted it by Gerrymandering the Lines of Congressional Districts, to create Ethnic seats...

 Posted by: Romeo13 at October 16, 2010 03:44 PM (AdK6a)

It's human nature to want to be around people like yourself.  That's why immigrants in the 20s settled into ethnic neighborhoods in New York, it's whey people tend to marry within their race, and it's why we hang around AOSHQ, and not DU or Huffpo.  That's what the lib social engineers don't understand.  Just because you do so doesn't make you a racist.  Racism is when you prevent people from freedom of association.

63 Can't. Talk. Taxes.

Must. regulate.  Blood  pressure.

64 and States have even admitted it by Gerrymandering the Lines of Congressional Districts, to create Ethnic seats...

That was actually mandated by the courts in the South.

65 51 Taxes never go away and bureaucracies never die.  An unfortunate fact of live here in America everywhere.   

Posted by: Ombudsman at October 16, 2010 03:43 PM (c1oyg)

FIFY

66 Ya know, if all the damned Democrats actually paid their taxes *cough* Geitner, Congress *cough* we wouldn't have this problem. Democrats don't mind hiking taxes because they themselves don't have to pay them.

Posted by: Rum, Goddess of Doom at October 16, 2010 03:49 PM (YxBuk)

Please.  Only the little people pay taxes.

67 yeah, not a huge fan of a VAT
I'd rather have a flat income tax, and eliminate withholding - or, keep withholding, but the withholding ends once the tax bill is met for the year.  So no more huge refunds from Uncle Sugar.

68 If you quote the comment -and- the commenter, it shows up every time you hit enter.

Posted by: Britain at October 16, 2010 03:26 PM (ZXnUe)

Thanks.

69 54 Businesses, at least small ones, can cheat on VAT at least as easily as an income tax.  Plus, compliance s probably more of a nightmare.

I dunno about that.  The small businesses would have to fork over more money in making sure they are keeping in compliance with the record keeping.  Never underestimate the govt's vigilance in cracking down on tax cheats, unless you are part of a Dem protected group or in Obama's Cabinet.

A VAT would have the side-effect of driving even more small businesses into bankruptcy.   

70

Ask any Brit and he'll tell you the VAT is a nightmare.  Sure, they start it out at one rate and promise never to raise it.  Yeah, I gotta bridge I can sell ya, too.

Hannity had Dick Armey on last night talking about the great stable of candidates he sees possibly coming out for '12.  Armey mentioned Daniels.  He must not keep up with teh news. 

Screw the VAT.  Put me down for flat tax and Congress in session for that three-month period.  I'd also like to rescind their lifetime bennies and adjust their pay to reflect the three-months of "work."

As for Constitutional Amendments on stuff we'd like but they'd never go for, if EbolaCare gets the OK from the SCOTUS, look for the states to take care of lots of stuff in a Constitutional Convention.

71 Well said, Gabe. 

I am drunk so this won't make sense, but the problem with our tax system is (are) the loopholes.  Rich people can afford financial managers and tax lawyers and accountants to ensure that they pay the least amount of tax possible while the rest of us poor working schmucks wind up paying more than we need to because we can't afford the financial advisors to do otherwise. 

I am not against the rich.  But I am against a system that can be jiggered by wealth.  I am against unfair competition.

This is also the problem with our judicial/legal system. 

Go Huskers.

72 Is there talk of this VAT being added to services like Canada's GST ?

73 From the Angela Merkel article above:

Our correspondent adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past.

--Yes, honesty and truthfulness are "strident" to left-wing tools like the BBC.

74

Ya know, if all the damned Democrats actually paid their taxes *cough* Geitner, Congress *cough* we wouldn't have this problem. Democrats don't mind hiking taxes because they themselves don't have to pay them.

Did you see where Fibbsy owes over $800,000?

75 As for Constitutional Amendments on stuff we'd like but they'd never go for, if EbolaCare gets the OK from the SCOTUS, look for the states to take care of lots of stuff in a Constitutional Convention.

meh - don't count on the state legislatures to bail us out.  they are cut from the same cloth as the idiots in DC.

76 The government doesn't need another revenue stream.  All tax rates are going through the roof in January as the Democrats will conveniently 'forget' to extend the Bush tax cuts. 

Oh, and the banking system is going to collapse, finally, due to the MBS scam reaching its only possible conclusion, so it kind of doesn't matter anyway.

77 Did you see where Fibbsy owes over $800,000?

That's it. I'm changing my party affiliation from Decline to State to D. Then I'm going to stop paying taxes.

78

I don't think it would: 20th Amendment

2. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

So noted, but all the 20th does is mandate when the one mandatory session per year begins (subject to a change in federal law).  It doesn't allow for a particular Congress to tell a future Congress that they may only meet for X days, or may only meet for Y sessions.

79 73 From the Angela Merkel article above:

Our correspondent adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past.

Speaking of no-go areas, how many does Germany have? 

80

Y-not still says it's a sport at October 16, 2010 03:53 PM (osFsP)

What?  I pay a CPA about $300 - $350 to do a personal and small business return and he makes sure that I get every deduction that I can legally. 

Rich people save more because they make and pay more - don't fall into that trap.

81 That was actually mandated by the courts in the South.

Posted by: Vic at October 16, 2010 03:51 PM (/jbAw)

True, but was then exported to all the States... so now it is common.

82

Officials at the Pennsylvania Turnpike have fired 12 employees in recent months as part of continuing investigations into theft, waste, and corruption.

And the road itself is shit.

83 Yep.  Can't do it.  Taxes are too painful. 

I propose we all just carry around pre-paid envelopes addressed to the IRS for every time we talk to someone who either wants a new tax or increased taxes and say, "Here you go.  They're always accepting donations."

Okay.  Okay.  Deep breaths.

84 The ENTIRE MINERS EPISODE can be attributed to one thing, and one thing only: PURE REPUBLICAN GREEED!!  The mines MUST be taken over by the government, and ALL of them CLOSED!!!!  ALL profits from the mines should be completely taken over by the government, and all the greedy bastard stockholders and Republican profiteers be criminally charged, executed and have their finances completely repatriated. As happy as I am for the poor miners, I am a HUNDRED TIMES AS MURDEROUSLY ENRAGED AT THE REPBUBLICAN MINDSET THAT MADE THIS HAPPEN!!! You guys can be happy for the families, but I'm concentrating on making sure that there are NO MORE FAMILIES that will ever...EVER!! have to go through this hell on earth ordeal!!! 100% caused by the Republican Party and its sinister offshoots!  SPIT!

Republicans cause DESTRUCTION, Democrats/Socialists render HUMANITY. . . . Chile Mine: Caused by Republican (Far right) Capitalist Greed, Rescue controlled by Socialist Humanitarian and Non-Greed Efficiency of PEOPLE FIRST, PROFITS LAST!  SPIT!

85 Well, at least Romney can use the 10th Amendment for his "issues"; Daniels, you've lost me!

86

61   if all the damned Democrats actually paid their taxes

hey now

77  That's it. I'm changing my party affiliation from Decline to State to D

welcome to the darkside, now, lets get that lacey chick.....

87 What about the Chinese mine? Do they have Republicans over there?

88
Stop the insanity!

89 Let's assume bitch daniels gets exactly what he wants: a flat tax and a vat, no income tax. Sooner or later, dems will get re-elected. And when they do, they will make the flat tax progressive. They don't have to make it super-progressive. Just a little bit. Get the camel's nose in the tent. And then every year, they can make it a little bit more progressive, ratcheting up the class warfare rhetoric, while growing the VAT at the same time by targeting hated industries for VAT increases. Then we will have a VAT and a progressive income tax. This, we do not need.

90 What?  I pay a CPA about $300 - $350 to do a personal and small business return and he makes sure that I get every deduction that I can legally.

yes, but your financial decisions throughout the year require more than a guy doing your taxes.  I mean the composition of your investments, how you negotiate your compensation packages, how you deal with large capital expenses and the sale of large capital holdings, that sort of thing.  It happens throughout the year and over many years, not just when you file your taxes.  We have a tax guy too, whom we needed when hubby had a more complicated job situation, but that is not by any stretch how you maximize (or minimize) paying taxes. 

I also object on principle to the notion that the govt is owed something when I spend money.  I understand the principle bheind property taxes and the concept of income taxes, I do not understand why I as a consumer pay sales taxes. 

I'm drunk, but even sober I don't see the logic behind a sales tax. 

91

Posted by: KayInMaine at October 16, 2010 04:02 PM (wmURa)

Wow... the Republicans are in charge in CHILE???

Crap, and I didn't get the memo from my Vast Right Wing Conspiracy group Leader!

92 Posted by: Editor at October 16, 2010 04:01 PM (YX6i/)

*pat pat* Everyone who tells me we're not taxed enough I ask if they take all the deductions they can when they pay. Then they splutter excuses, the hypocrites.

93 umm...wow, KayInMaine, that was incoherent and totally stupid... you must be a liberal, right?

94

Even under the current complicated income tax scheme, the taxpayer-voter has a pretty good idea of how much of his annual income gets sent off to Washington, D.C.

This is where you lost me. I, personally, have no idea how much of my money goes directly or indirectly to Washington. Sure, there's income taxes, but then there are the withholding taxes, gasoline taxes, utility taxes, etc.

What makes the idea of a VAT so attractive is that, as bad as it is, it's not extraordinarily bad. It's like the guy looking to get high, figuring he already has beer, so let's add some gin, whiskey, vodka, pot, ecstasy, nitrous oxide, methampetamines, ether, cocaine, Wite Out, heroin, caffeine pills and wine coolers.

And you're saying that popping dexadrine in addition to all that is a bad idea. You're totally right -- but at this point, who else is going to notice or care?

95 O/T:  "Immigration cases being tossed by the hundreds  Docket review pulls curtain back on procedure by Homeland Security"

sneaky sneaky sneaky

96

84  let me guess

no boyfriend or husband?

97 Hey, chemjeff, I'm sitting here in a drunken stupor rooting for your Huskers and they're blowing it. 

98

welcome to the darkside, now, lets get that lacey chick.....

Posted by: navycopjoe aka democrat god and Cubbies Fan!!! at October 16, 2010 04:03 PM (gg4j2)

As long as she doesn't go full retard and become a Bears/Cubbies/Gaga fan.

99 I also object on principle to the notion that the govt is owed something when I spend money.  I understand the principle bheind property taxes and the concept of income taxes, I do not understand why I as a consumer pay sales taxes. 

Posted by: Y-not still says it's a sport at October 16, 2010 04:04 PM (osFsP)

Well, Property tax is even worse... you essentialy pay rent on your own property!  Because if you get behind, they put a lean on your property, and will eventualy seize it.

100 Y-not huh - I thought the game started at 3:30.  Time to go watch the game!

101 navycopjoe, tell me you're not voting for Dems this year.  Seriously, dude.

102 Screamingly obvious. 

Yeah.

Wasn't it said that should the tax cuts expire, that many of those who have things all set up for a nice fed tax refund each year, instead will actually have to write checks?

Long ago, I had a job supervising union construction tradesmen, whose W-4s were always done to maximize their refunds.  Just like their buddies in the auto plants, they often got checks each spring that could pay for a new fishing boat with motor and trailer.

All oblivious to their taxation.  Grateful to Uncle Sam for the piggy bank.

Screamingly obvious and right before voting.  That'll get us on the right path.  But how can that possibly be done?

103

A flat tax on income is my preference, but a Fair Tax or a VAT tax could also work, assuming you eliminated the ability of Congress to apply the tax arbitrarily.

In my mind, I'd accept any of the following:

1. Flat income tax of 17% - no deductions

2. Fair Tax of 23% - no IRS

3. VAT tax (with estimated cost of VAT printed on every receipt for every purchase) - no IRS

IF Daniels is proposing a VAT + an income tax, I'd probably disagree.  You'd have to have a Constitutional amendment to freeze the income tax rate and to avoid selective enforcement of either tax to make that workable.

104

Dear KayinMaine,

You have missed the last three appointments and we're concerned about your mental stability.  Call Nurse Ratched at the earliest, and schedule an appointment to discuss both your mental health and prescription needs.

Regards,

Dr. Fish

105 Thanks for cheering me up, Kay.

106 #83  I propose we all just carry around pre-paid envelopes addressed to the IRS for every time we talk to someone who either wants a new tax or increased taxes and say, "Here you go.  They're always accepting donations."

Which is why when rich liberals like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet piss me off when they claim that taxes are too low.  Why can't they donate half their wealth to the government and just shut their fat faces?

But they can afford the tax shelters and the tax consultants to hide their money while the rest of us languish. 

107 Wow... the Republicans are in charge in CHILE???

How does that work?  Chile's government said they're going to give the miners paid vacation-because, I thought, Chile's government already owns the mines. 

108

98  thats how we trap them

this sunday at wrigley...STOMPY BOOTS DAY!!!!

109 Weee!  Conflating the FairTax and VAT is fun!

110

Well, Property tax is even worse... you essentialy pay rent on your own property!  Because if you get behind, they put a lean on your property, and will eventualy seize it.

Posted by: Romeo13 at October 16, 2010 04:08 PM

But the city or county or whoever has to service your property in some way.  So I kind of get that.  And usually it appreciates, so it's an investment. 

On the other hand, I am sitting on a depreciated property in CA so it'd be nice to get those tens of thous in property taxes that I paid back. 

111 The VAT is the economy kiss of death.  It would represent a geyser of virtually unlimited revenue flowing into the coffers of government, it would tax goods at every stage of production, from raw resource to distribution to store shelf, and - worst of all - it would be invisible to consumers, never showing up on their sales receipt like an honest sales tax does. 

EcAT is01 says that if you want less of something, Tax It.  Well, think about it: tax economic activity!  Does our present economy look like we need less economic activity? 

As far as I'm concerned, Mitch Daniels can go eff off.  I'm sure he'll promise that the VAT will be "only 2%," (although, if there are five steps in making an iPod, say, that suddenly becomes effectively 10.41 PERCENT!)

Bottom line: if the Federal Government passes a 2 percent VAT tax, your standard of living instantly drops by over 10 percent, as everything in the store goes by that much immediately.
 
And the government would never RAISE the VAT a few years down the line, right?  OH, NO!!!

And of course, you can believe them if they say they'll eliminate the income tax, or lower it... they would never raise it later on, OH, NO!!!

So much for Mitch Daniels as a Presidential candidate.  He wants a "truce on social issues" (i.e., acquiescence to anything old thing liberals want - unlimited abortions, gay marriage, the Latinization of America, etc.), and is willing to fund the Liberal Totalitarian State by cutting our slashing our very lives down to 90 percent of their former selves.  What the hell is "conservative" about this crap... it's nothing but RINO betrayal of conservatism, of true Republicans, and of America.

112 #84  Kay, kindly fuck off.

Read this and weep:

Capitalism Saved the Miners

Btw, what would the "progressive" Chinese have done with the miners in such a situation?

113

101  i am a volunteer for the djou and duke campaign

that would be a no

114
KayinMaine hates the capitalist system, but has no qualms about taking welfare and food stamps from hard working American's who labor in private industry. 

You would think that Kay would specify that her welfare payments only come from other socialist/Marxist?

115 I get it.  KayinMaine is actually ChrisMatthewsinDC.

116 Sorry about the mangled syntax in the last couple of sentences... must calm down... calm down...

117

3. VAT tax (with estimated cost of VAT printed on every receipt for every purchase) - no IRS

Posted by: stickety at October 16, 2010 04:09 PM (EsWC3)

Problem with the VAT is that it makes our products less competitive with foreign made products, both in the import, and export areanas.  It raises prices on every good made in America, but due to Free Trade agreements, we CAN'T add that Tax to imports...

VAT is an American busniess killer.

118

Its a adding tax, which means you can have a very low number[say 2%}, but because it can be used multiple times on one product during manufacturing, it can "ADD" up to a tax of 12-14-16%. Yet the government can say...... its just a 2% tax. Yeah, right.

It hurts the poor and middle class more then Bill Gates.

The tax changes hands during purchase, the citizen blames buisnesses rather then the government. Why are my car prices so high and computers so expensive..... I hate Ford and Dell. I hate them. Instead of blaming the government. They are therefor less angry at the government which allows the government to increase the tax in the future with less voter anger.

Its another new tax.

Its what Europe does, so lets copy them.

The only good I see in the VAT tax is it just put the final nail in Mitch Danials political career.

119 Posted by: KayInMaine at October 16, 2010 04:02 PM (wmURa)

--Oh my.  The crazeh reappears.

From the column I linked above:

It was a critical executive decision by a man whose long walk through the halls of a different kind of power – the world of business – made him uniquely qualified to make a gamble that anyone with political savvy would have avoided.

It didnÂ’t hurt that Mr. PineraÂ’s mining minister happened to have a similar pedigree.

What followed was what might be called the MBA rescue.

It was a $10- to $20-million exercise in crisis management run by a Harvard-educated billionaire President and his Stanford-educated retailer lieutenant, each only recently transplanted into government office.

It ended this week, of course, as a brilliant political masterstroke, one that has vaulted to immense popularity the first conservative government to reach power in this country since far-right dictator Augusto PinochetÂ’s reign ended in 1990.

But behind the scenes, it was a carefully directed exercise by men whose pasts have given them an uncommon appetite for risk – and an uncommon expectation of success.

Mr. Pinera is among the worldÂ’s 500 richest people, a man who has grown small airlines and television networks into major players.

Mr. Golborne has run some of the top companies in South America.

Together, they staged the rescue with the meticulous execution of a new business venture. Its planners were innovative and persistent.

They learned from others’ mistakes, hired the best talent, worked out hundreds of contingencies, put in place multiple backup plans, carefully managed expectations, assiduously marketed every move – and, above all, accepted a level of hazard that would have made weaker-kneed leaders tremble.

“From a political point of view, his advisers probably told the president to do something different,” Mr. Golborne says, in a one-on-one interview with The Globe and Mail.

“But the president was very moved by this situation. He made this decision because he felt it was his duty.”

In acting on that decision, he did away with the bureaucratic responses that often make even greater disasters out of tragedy, in cases such as Hurricane Katrina.

--None of what I highlighted above are virtues that a big-government mentality nurtures.

120 Hey, Kay.  You're right.  We pretty much suck.  It's a bitch that we rule the world, isn't it?

121 I did my early voting this morning.  I feel good about it.  NM may have a greedy republican governor soon.  Fingers crossed!

122

Its what Europe does, so lets copy them.

Except for those Imperialist British. 

123
federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax, ...

what else?

124 @113

You may live.

However, I wonder why you maintain a D registration.  But chacun a son gout.

125 LOL......What CoolCzech said.

126 Btw, what would the "progressive" Chinese have done with the miners in such a situation?

I'll take "Left for dead" for $2000, Alex

127 Anybody catch Stossel on taxes, last night?  (hoochy momma!)

128

You're MY TYPE, KayInMaine. I guess it's just you and me against ALL THESE HEARTLESS IMBECILES. Republicans are all GREEDY and STUPID and full of greed and stupidity.

(BY THE WAY, I hope you don't mind that I UNDERLINED SOME WORDS. I don't want to come across as TOO BOLD or anything.)

129 #123 federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax, ...

We tax everything that moves or doesn't move. 

130 There are rich people like Paul Allen who can do any number of things to buy off politicians, sue their competitors and hide their money. That's the difference.

131 However, I wonder why you maintain a D registration.  But chacun a son gout.

Posted by: Y-not still says it's a sport at October 16, 2010 04:15 PM (osFsP)

Oh no.  Let's not start this, again.  Nope.  Uh uh. 

132 Btw, what would the "progressive" Chinese have done with the miners in such a situation?

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at October 16, 2010 04:11 PM (9hSKh)

We kinda used to death panels on a daily basis

133 Wow Gabe.

That post was just freakin' AWESOME SAUCE!!!

I just so love seeing someone take the time to clearly articulate my scattered mind-thoughts.

134 Followup to my #102.

"Long ago, I had a job supervising union construction tradesmen, whose W-4s were always done to maximize their refunds."

And when I signed up new guys, who would go, "Yeah, I got two kids, but put me down for married with none.  That way I get the bigger refund check, " I go, "but if you say single and zero, you'll get an even bigger check," sez him, "but I can't, I'm married,"  sez me, "so what?"

Then I would try to explain the economic wisdom of going, say, married with thirteen, to get the biggest weekly paycheck, really big, and so what if you owe each spring, and besides, I know you only got two kids, but who do you think is checking your W-4 against your return?

Deaf ears.

135 Kay please come back so we can taunt you a second time.

136 federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax, ...

what else?

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 16, 2010 04:14 PM (waTiq)

Hotel tax.

137 129 #123 federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax, ...

We tax everything that moves or doesn't move. 

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at October 16, 2010 04:16 PM (9hSKh)

Well, we're working on the Air you exhale!

138 Oh no.  Let's not start this, again.  Nope.  Uh uh.

Oh, I didn't realize that someone tortured NCJ about this already.  I have no intention of doing so.  He is cool in my book. 

This way he can be our "diversity commenter" at HQ.  It's all good.

139 137 129 #123 federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax, ...

We tax everything that moves or doesn't move. 

Posted by: Hillary Clinton at October 16, 2010 04:16 PM (9hSKh)

Well, we're working on the Air you exhale!

Posted by: Cap and Trade at October 16, 2010 04:19 PM (AdK6a)

Piker, already got you beat, I tax you for being ALIVE...

140

Hotel tax.

universal telephone tax thing, airfare tax? (what's it called?)

141

Kay please come back so we can taunt you a second time.

Posted by: USS Diversity at October 16, 2010 04:18 PM (u3Zi5)

Sorry but I'm busy bopping the dreamy Howard Dean who was cheated out of the nomination for president.

142

63 Can't. Talk. Taxes.

Must. regulate.  Blood  pressure.

Posted by: Editor at October 16, 2010 03:49 PM (YX6i/)

I figured out why your pump failed. See college football thread.

KayInMaine is a bad sockpuppet

Let them try a VAT. We'll have 70 Senators and 300 House seats if they they try.

143
The point is: this tax thing is getting out of hand.

We don't need a new tax scheme. We need to stop spending.

144

Sorry but I'm busy bopping the dreamy Howard Dean who was cheated out of the nomination for president.

Republicans did that, too.

145 KayinMaine must be somehow institutionalized.  The infrequency of her posts suggests some sort of furlough schedule.

146 In NY you have more than 45% of your income goes in taxes.  It's definitely more if you own a house and buy a lot of stuff.  And it's going up.

147 Instead of a VAT, we should implement a national retail sales tax.  What is taxable at the state level should also be taxable at the federal level - in each of the 50 states.  The government should not collect the tax from the businesses, but from the 50 states and they are the only people who should be audited by the federal government

This is the first time I have heard of this idea.

Me likey.

Cut, jib, newsletter...

148 airfare tax? (what's it called?)

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 16, 2010 04:21 PM (waTiq)

--No, they're mostly "fees," not taxes.

149 Why do all the Husker face-painters have hot women? I thought girls didn't like that.

150 I figured out why your pump failed. See college football thread.

Posted by: Ed Anger at October 16, 2010 04:22 PM (7+pP9)

Saw it.  Responded.  Think you called it well.

151 Btw, what would the "progressive" Chinese have done with the miners in such a situation?

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at October 16, 2010 04:11 PM (9hSKh)

Considering that they have a major mining disaster about every other week there, you would think they would be rescue experts.

152

Better to forget, for a while, the VAT.   Besides, if Repubs take both houses, we can stop those effers.

Right now, it looks like we may have to worry about the dims trying to pass a $1Tril omnibus bill in the lame duck.   I need a drink.

http://tiny.cc/sz4kf

It's a Hill link.  If it's true, I'm investing what little I have left in torches & pitchforks.

 

153 Did you see where the indistructable Alan Grayson (looooooooooooooooooove him!) teamed up with my teddy bear Ed Schultz on the sublime MSNBC?

Like you Nazis (SPIT!) could EVER field such a dynamic duo!

154

Eliminate all federal taxes.  Instead, divide the cost of all federal expenses equitably among the states and require the states to raise the money each year in the manner that they deem best.    If California wants to pay it's share of the federal budget by raising sales taxes, and Oregon chooses to increase it's taxes on corporations, then so be it.

155 Sorry to go OT but this is good: Organizing for America is looking for Donkey volunteers to call Dem voters to get out the vote. I say we help them out. http://my.barackobama.com what a limp-wristed url. figures. (article link from The Hill, "Obama campaign arm aims for million voters to pump up Dem base" )

156
Yo Kay, are you also fucking Schultz or only Grayson?

157
if Repubs take both houses, we can stop those effers.

It's the Republicans we have to worry about. These assholes, for the sake of bipartisanship, will go along with some sort of new tax scheme to, supposedly, pay down the debt.

158 What is sad is that for a near-majority of our history, the US gov't has been funded by tariffs.  Now we have all these taxes and are still dropping precipitously into insolvency ala Greece. 

Guess you can't tax yourself into prosperity, eh?

159 KayinMaine is actually ChrisMatthewsinDC.

And they are also this guy.

160
rdbrewer is linking really old stuff in the sidebar.

Dave from Garfield Ridge is spinning in his grave.

_{no, he's not dead}

161
can't wait for rd to discover lolcats

162 Bottom line:  VAT is a centralized tax.  It's owed not by citizens but by companies.  It's more hidden.  It's analogous to withholding, which numbs citizens to taxation.  NO TO VAT.

163 It's the Republicans we have to worry about. These assholes, for the sake of bipartisanship, will go along with some sort of new tax scheme to, supposedly, pay down the debt.

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 16, 2010 04:28 PM (waTiq)

Believe me, we can stop most of them.   I'm not saying we can do much with the Maine sisters, but they have elections coming up next go round.   That VAT's not going through.    They will be crucifyed if they try, and they know it.

164 #157  It's the Republicans we have to worry about. These assholes, for the sake of bipartisanship, will go along with some sort of new tax scheme to, supposedly, pay down the debt.

After what happened to the first George Bush, in astounds me that any Republican would still fall for the "don't worry, we'll raise taxes only to pay off the national debt" scheme.  Sounds akin to the "I'll insert only the tip" gambit. 

But they don't call the Republican party the "Party of Stupid" for no reason. 

165

Did you see where the indistructable Alan Grayson ...

Of course, no one could ever distruct Alan Grayson. It makes the difault discription of Sarah Palin as being "scary" a bit hard to figure out. That it's become the left's difault position

Was that a diliberate attempt to difeat her vice-president bid, or is the left just ditermined to difame Palin?

166 14 It's all a lie.

20 years after Connecticut passed the state income tax, we now have the biggest debt per capita.

Posted by: Dr. Love at October 16, 2010 03:21 PM (STTZD)

Remember when that Sonofabitch Lowell Weicker, the uberRINO, campaigned that he "always said an income is wrong for Connecticut?"  As soon as he was elected, he introduced the income tax that was supposed to solve our fiscal problems forever.  And promptly moved to Florida once his term was up.

Of course, what happened was that as soon as liberals had a new source of revenue,  the bastards immediately spent it AND MORE.  For that, the New York Slimes gave him a "Courage in Government Award."  For the courage of LYING TO THE PEOPLE OF CONNECTICUT!

167
Kay is the classic moonbat, and her website speaks more to her insanity than anything posted at AoS!  Get the butterfly net!

168 umm, well, the whole states-collect-the-taxes-and-send-them-to-the-feds was the original taxation scheme in the Articles of Confederation, and it didn't work - some states decided that they just didn't want to pay.

169 re: "It's the Republicans we have to worry about." Totally agree. O is toast. Biggest problems for us are: 2014, getting a McCain 2.0 candidate; and Turning Congress back over to the Trent Lott republicans.

170

Posted by: Fish at October 16, 2010 04:35 PM (v1gw3)

Ayup, that's weapons grade crazy, right there.

Don't know if it makes a difference but next to a JFK quote she has The Swimmer pictured.

171 Today someone said on the radio that they are all "the political class, regardless of party" and after reading this and hearing some stuff on the radio today, I'm inclined to agree with that person.  They are in a panic cause they can't fund any of this stuff and they've already made a huge mess.  Their first thought is to tax the people to death.  Except a lot aren't working and government workers seem to get all kinds of tax perks so they are really putting all this on the backs of the middle class hwo are the ones working in the private sector.  If they tax private companies, they will leave the country and they aren't getting this at all.   Someone said today that the chinese are going to own all the houses, that's nice but what will they do for work?  Heck all the Americans will end up following their companies to china.   What a mess they have created.

172

Kay is the classic moonbat, and her website speaks more to her insanity than anything posted at AoS!  Get the butterfly net!

I started reading and I threw up a little bit in my mouth. That fucking commie pig can post your email and url if she doesn't like you. I'm sure tech-savvy morons can get on there and wreak havoc.

173 some states decided that they just didn't want to pay.

Posted by: chemjeff-husker at October 16, 2010 04:37 PM (e3WX

Aaaaaaaand?

174

what else?

The Death Tax, which is a tax on stuff that's already been taxed but now that one is dead, the Government wants one last bite out of you.  Just for old times' sake.

175 If you see Kay.

176 For those who think KayinMaine can't possibly be real, I present Carolyn Chute:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1932076,00.html

177 The problems highlighted by GM over the VAT proposal apply to pretty much any taxation scheme imaginable, including the system we have in place now.  Congress will always find ways to financially milk industries that they decide are unhealthy, immoral, or favor the other party in power, or whatever.  They might just want another few billion dollars to blow on hookers and coke. 

As long as any such law prevents Congress from hiking the VAT on specific industries, or products, eliminates the federal payroll tax, and it does away with 99% of the IRS' payroll....I'm onboard.

178 Kay is the classic moonbat, and her website speaks more to her insanity than anything posted at AoS!  Get the butterfly net!

And, for bonus points, she's a Trig Truther, too!

179 ditto to MP @19, Jimmie @ 25, Romeo @ 27 re: Rum I tell em not to withhold any. --------- There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding as to how a VAT operates. It is not a cumulative (e.g. 2%+2%+...) tax. And it has, in large part, to do with how the "efficiency" in it works... As a business, you deduct the VAT paid by the companies you purchased your goods from your share of the VAT. Thus, assuming no business doesnt want to pay extra, it will ultimately end up at whatever the rate that is set because the deduction neutralizes the cumulative effect perfectly. It is basically a more efficient version of a corporate income tax that instead of its net, essentially taxes a business's gross.

180 Only skanks spit, Kay.

181 Tax reform is surely needed, BUT it must be completely OFF THE TABLE until we straighten out the spending mess we are in. 

This should not be subject to compromise.  The wind is at our backs right now, and if we do not act to rein in the spending, our next chance will be in receivership.

182 180 Only skanks spit, Kay.

Posted by: schizuki at October 16, 2010 04:45 PM (M+lbD)

But she'd swallow Obama.

183 O/T:  The campaign is sending out an average of four emails a day.  Just like the month before the presidential election.

They want you to meet the pres.  for a fee.  They want you to make phone calls for them.  They want to thank you cause you stopped the republican wave and they want to tell you how great all the new laws are for you despite what the republicans say.

184
Only skanks spit, Kay.

Posted by: schizuki at October 16, 2010 04:45 PM (M+lbD)

But she'd swallow Obama.

Wow!  I have first dibs on the magnificent Obama member.

185

But she'd swallow Obama.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at October 16, 2010 04:51 PM (7rfUg)

Eww. Thanks for that image. But you're probably right.

186
Senator Boxer is a greedy bitch who deserves to lose the election if she thinks she can hog Obama's hog?

187 Well, I'm off to the little guy's school carnival, then maybe see some of you in Austin?

188

Wow...how can we ever, ever get around that super tough defense.

Posted by: Mallamutt at October 16, 2010 04:55 PM (OWjjx)

Heh, I have Verizon Wireless broadband and my IP changes every time I log off and log back on. I don't give a shit if she knows my real name.

Maybe I should start regularly harrassing her, yes?

189

umm, well, the whole states-collect-the-taxes-and-send-them-to-the-feds was the original taxation scheme in the Articles of Confederation, and it didn't work - some states decided that they just didn't want to pay.

The problem there seemed to be more due to lack of any enforcement mechanisms.  I would imagine that giving the federal government the ability to impose temporary tariffs as necessary, allowing for all contracts between the violating state and outside entities be declared void (good luck when your power gets cut off, California!), threatening to relocate military bases, or even a clause allowing for the rest of the country to temporarily revoke all recognition of things like license plates or drivers licenses.

190 It's the Republicans we have to worry about. These assholes, for the sake of bipartisanship, will go along with some sort of new tax scheme to, supposedly, pay down the debt.

Posted by: Soothsayer at October 16, 2010 04:28 PM (waTiq)

They claim to have learned their lesson.  We shall see.  The temptation for newly elected politicians to go native once they get to Washington must be strong indeed.  We don't need any more fucking Trent Lotts or Tom Delays.

191 There is no need for taxing individuals at all.  This is the first myth of BS put forth by the pork bellied, budget busters, trough slopping, do-nothing, backsliding bureaucrats...to fatten themselves and their friends.

Look, income taxes are paid at a 70% clip by the top 10% of wage earners. ($113,799 in 200

The top 50% pay all but 2.7%.  Get it?  The bottom half...fully HALF...pay a grand total of 2.7%.  They don't need a tax "break"...they aren't paying anything.

This is an absurd result.  The FUNCTION of a federal government is to provide for the common good.  Roads, defense, security.    Half of the people are getting a free ride, essentially.

So, it makes sense to take a level portion of the amount consumed.  Let's cut out the middle man.  Build the cost INTO the purchase...not ONTO the purchase.

And then tax the amount RECEIVED by the seller.  Not the buyer. 

All goods and services would have an automatic tax burden built into their charge.  We can choose to buy or not buy, but WE won't be accosted by collectors.

This way, the bottom half isn't contributing nearly zero and the proportion of contributions would line up precisely with consumption.

There is no need to complicate the system with "value" judgments about a higher "burden"...it's simply based upon gross income on the use/purchase of goods and services.

ELIMINATE all taxes levied against individuals. It's not necessary.  And it would eliminate the need for the government to "go after" its own citizens as bagmen for the congressional "dons"..

192

Problem with the VAT is that it makes our products less competitive with foreign made products, both in the import, and export areanas.  It raises prices on every good made in America, but due to Free Trade agreements, we CAN'T add that Tax to imports...

VAT is an American busniess killer.

If memory serves, most countries with VATs give the VAT paid on exports back to the exporter.  Indeed, that particular subsidy is allowed by the World Trade Organization, while a refund on corporate income taxes related to exports is not.

Still, the VAT is a giant American business killer.

193 Repeal the income tax ammendment and then and only then introduce a set flat tax.  No payroll withholding.  (I know I've gotten into the thread late and everyone's talking about pussy and cock now)

194 138  ooooh, i like it

195

Oh...I stepped over to KayInMaine's site and she warn us that she will post our name and IP address if we are complete friggin assholes.

Wow...how can we ever, ever get around that super tough defense.

Proxy servers, dummy e-mail addresses and sockpuppets go a long way.  I mean, shit, we know sockpuppeting.

196

Oh...I stepped over to KayInMaine's site and she warn us that she will post our name and IP address if we are complete friggin assholes.

Wow...how can we ever, ever get around that super tough defense.

Posted by: Mallamutt at October 16, 2010 04:55 PM (OWjjx)

Good heavens... she has posts on her site from 2007..... stuff from the 2008 election...and of course, the obligatory picture of Beck with a nazi armband.  Classy..

197
(I know I've gotten into the thread late and everyone's talking about pussy and cock now)

Posted by: Soona at October 16, 2010 05:02 PM (5/Zjk)

Excepting KayinMaine who has an ugly gaping wound because the pussy disappeared many years past.

198
21 Love 'em all you want, but Chile is on the list of asshole countries suing Arizona.

199 Seems like "consumption taxes" are being confused with VAT here.  A sales tax, the simplest consumption tax, is extremely efficient.  Except at exhorbidant rates it yields almost all of what would be expected with little cost of administration.  Nor does it fluctuate much with booms and recessions.  The VAT, while a "consumption" tax, is grossly inefficient from the administration/corruption side (as I recall European mafias' main revenue source is VAT gaming these days) even if theoretically efficient.

200

If memory serves, most countries with VATs give the VAT paid on exports back to the exporter.  Indeed, that particular subsidy is allowed by the World Trade Organization, while a refund on corporate income taxes related to exports is not.

Still, the VAT is a giant American business killer.

Posted by: steveegg at October 16, 2010 05:00 PM (51MkX)

Yeah, but do you really trust folks like... oh.. Barney Frank to do that?

201

Gabe - your are right on. 

The VAT is an isidious form of tax that portends to be everything in theory but in reality cripples economies with new bureaucracies and new rules on top of old bureaucracies and old rules.

 

 

202 I mean, shit, we know sockpuppeting.

Posted by: steveegg at October 16, 2010 05:03 PM (51MkX)

Dude, AoS is like the Top Gun School of sockpuppeting.

203 Though VAT is of course bad for the reasons mention, just it's also bad because it is an inefficient tax, not an efficient one (in real life).

204 Right now, somewhere between 40% and 50% pay no federal income tax, and a VAT would remedy that.

Baby. Bathwater. Toss.

Nose. Face. Spite. Cut.

I'm not denying the problem that you raise but I can't imagine a worse
"remedy" than a VAT tax!

Hells Bells!  Over the past decade, I've been part of that 40% non-paying citizen demo at least 75% of the time.

The meager living that I manage to eek out, I would be more than willing to give say 10% -15% to the government, straight up.

I like roads and police and sanitation and courts and whatnot.

Makes my eeking possible.

VAT as a remedy to the disparity between the "payers" and the "takers" in our current system?

(BTW, I might not be a "payer" as far as Income Taxes go but I'm sure as shit not a "taker"!  I get no aid, no help because I'm a single female with no kids willing to take $10 p/h part-time jobs to get my bills paid.)

Get rid of the fucking system!

As far as I can tell, at the individual level, taxes are a punitive device.

I'm not sure that this should be so.

Spreading the punishment around more equally seems to me to be avoiding the larger issue.

205 197 138  ooooh, i like it

Congratulations on being the official AoSHQ token. 

Mr. Y-not is the diversity hire at his new place in Utah 'cause he ain't Mormon. 

So, get this, it has been pointed out to him that it is a good thing that he is there b/c as a heathen he can do business at the cocktail parties and coffee breaks in Park City. 

Basically, he and his lively bride (moi) will be encouraged to drink and socialize with the non-LDS crowd.  This is looking good. 

206 205 I mean, shit, we know sockpuppeting.

Posted by: steveegg at October 16, 2010 05:03 PM (51MkX)

Dude, AoS is like the Top Gun School of sockpuppeting.

Posted by: ErikW at October 16, 2010 05:07 PM (sSTtQ)

 

What you talking about there Goose?

207

Dude, AoS is like the Top Gun School of sockpuppeting.

Preach it, brother Goose.

208

I know I've gotten into the thread late and everyone's talking about pussy and cock now

Can I help it that my cat roots for South Carolina?

209 federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax,

thumb tacks

210 Move it to the first monday in November ... and outlaw government withholding.

Employers can withhold for you ... but they must hand you a check for that amount in the last week of October.

Make paying tax obvious and painful.

211 OK Mav.... no more flybys for you

212

What you talking about there Goose?

Posted by: Maverik at October 16, 2010 05:12 PM (AdK6a)

We know you're really Cougar.

213 OK Mav.... no more flybys for you

Posted by: Tower at October 16, 2010 05:14 PM (AdK6a)

It's time to buzz the tower.

214

What you talking about there Goose?

Posted by: Maverik at October 16, 2010 05:12 PM (AdK6a)

We know you're really Cougar.

Posted by: Maverick (and not the one from AZ) at October 16, 2010 05:15 PM

You're all a bunch of frauds.  I've got rep and cock!

215

That, and the amount of record keeping needed for the VAT is another drag on the economy, because EVERY item would have to be tracked from cradle to grave for the VAT to be correctly put on your reciept...

Just the amount of infrastructure needed to do this is pretty staggering.

216 I mean, shit, we know sockpuppeting.

Posted by: steveegg at October 16, 2010 05:03 PM (51MkX)

Dude, AoS is like the Top Gun School of sockpuppeting.

Posted by: ErikW at October 16, 2010 05:07 PM (sSTtQ)

 

It's half the fun of posting on AoS.  Well, that and pudding.

217 Yo Kay, are you also fucking Schultz or only Grayson?

Posted by: Fish at October 16, 2010 04:27 PM (v1gw3)

Not to mention taking in every orifice from every illegal Quebecois with extremely poor personal hygiene that chooses to leave one economic shithole for the home of Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins.  Why do you think she punctuates every comment with a spit?

218 Oh and on topic:  Fuck Mitch Daniels.

219 21 Love 'em all you want, but Chile is on the list of asshole countries suing Arizona.

Posted by: Fuck Chile at October 16, 2010 05:05 PM (gbCNS)

--Ultimately, that's on us.  Our asshole judges should not even give them standing.

220 I'm fine with a VAT... if that's all we ever have as a tax, replacing all existing federal taxes and requiring a 2/3rds majority to increase except in war or emergency. Adding a VAT? No, hell no.

221

okay, check it out COOOOOOOOONS  (was that the correct amount of O's?)

obviously when it comes to immigration, our parties have a serious disagreement so being a real reagan democrat, i have the compromise

we only allow in smoking hot illegal females, the rest, oh well...pound sand

222 Gabe,

Have not read comments before if this is redundant sorry.

A VAT tax is efficient, but to economists the most important thing is that NO ONE escapes taxation. 

The slugs on the dole pay it.

It also does not discourage savings, and actually encourages is by making consumption more expensive.  More saving equals more capital which equals more investment equals more jobs.

Ditch the income tax and have a VAT. 

Democrats would have to start paying taxes.

What's the down side of that?

223

federal income tax, state income tax, county tax, city tax, property tax, sales tax, meals tax, gas tax, excise tax, sin tax, capital gains tax, luxury tax, ...

what else?

school tax, lodging tax, corporate tax, Social Security withholding tax, disability withholding tax, reemployment withholding tax, ...

then there are all of the licenses you need to buy if you want to hunt, fish, go boating, own a car, drive a car, shoot a gun, cut hair, serve food, serve alcohol, run any kind of business, put a sign on your business, improve your property, ...

and all the fee-for-service charges that you thought your taxes were paying for like driving on certain highways, court fees should you bring someone to court, a surcharge if you get a traffic ticket, calling the fire department to put a fire out, ...

224

229  Democrats would have to start paying taxes.

What's the down side of that?

less money for me

225

Probably pointed out already, but few if any really have any idea what they pay in taxes now.  Sure, you get your W-2 each year, but income withholding taxes are far from the only federal taxes we pay.  Gas tax, phone tax, alcohol tax, etc, plus hidden taxes like corporate taxes that are passed onto consumers.

Few really know what percentage they're even being taxed at now with deductions and such.  If there were a VAT (and/or flat) tax, everyone would know what their tax rate would be, just as with state sales taxes.  If a new TV went from $500 to $520 due to an increase, it would be immediately noticeable.  If everyone faced higher taxes (rather than "the rich) it would be harder to push through.

Problem is, I doubt they'd forego all the other added taxes and "fees".  They'd probably implement it such that individual taxes were VAT/flat, but still keep all the other taxes that individual taxpayers aren't as aware of.

226

we only allow in smoking hot illegal females, the rest, oh well...pound sand

Posted by: navycopjoe aka democrat god, Cubbies Fan, and AoShq diversity commenter at October 16, 2010 05:34 PM (gg4j2)

--But if they're allowed in, are they illegal?

227 More taxes?!

fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap

228 Posted by: navycopjoe aka democrat god, Cubbies Fan, and AoShq diversity commenter at October 16, 2010 05:36 PM (gg4j2)

Sorry, Joe, time to go, or pay up!

No free ride! 

Guess the Cubbies know that!

Sorry, that was mean!

229 233  hmmmm, considering they would get married really fast, not really

230

VAT...yes, just what we need. After all, it is has worked SOOO wonderfully for Europe.

All the things pointed out are true - we can give our friends 'breaks' and punish our enemies (moreso than now).

Are some of you finally getting WHY we don't trust, and indeed, depise, RINOs and want hardcore Conservatives?

It isn't about 'winning the seat' when the winner will just fuck us over with ideas like this and give cover to our enemies. Now that a 'Republican' has talked about what a great idea it is, the Democrats and media will run with the meme 'the moderate Republicans think it's a great idea', and 'it has bi-partisan support'.

Fiscal cons to Mitch Daniels: FUCK YOU.

231 umm, well, the whole states-collect-the-taxes-and-send-them-to-the-feds was the original taxation scheme in the Articles of Confederation, and it didn't work - some states decided that they just didn't want to pay.

But back in those days the other states could have declared war and just beat the shit out of them until they coughed up, right??

I'm still not sure exactly why the taxes wrung out of Arizonans go to a fucking dog park in San Diego, CA.

Next time I have the time and cash, I'm gonna vaycay in San Diego.

Wanna know why?

There are tons of interesting things to do and see in San Diego (diving shipwrecks!) but for me the big draw will be squeezing out a giant log onto the Stimulus dog park!

I feel that I've earned it.

All of the scratch that the Fed government has skimmed off my pay checks since I was 15 years old, helped pay for this puppy out-house.

I want value for my money!

Sans dog, I shall utilize this "public good" in the most efficient manner available to me.

232

236  Guess the Cubbies know that!

damn, ouch

hey mallamutt, how do you do that 128 font thing again?

233

When she and her sister asked why, I explained that since Mexico was suing Arizona I would not be giving any money to Mexico, period.

My sister in law has not spoke to me since.

I consider that a double win.

Posted by: Mallamutt at October 16, 2010 05:38 PM (OWjjx)

--Heh, glad it worked out.  Alas, since my in-laws are Mexican I can't get out of it.  Still, there are better places to go.

Speaking of, a lot of Canadians go to Cuba, since they can.  There's a new ad campaign I see here that is bitterly ironic.  The tagline? "Cuba: Auténtica"

234

The tagline? "Cuba: Auténtica"

What's the draw of "authentic," anyway?

Anthony Bourdain did a show from India.He had some authentic food, which included some fried brains from a street vendor.

If I want Mexican, I look for Tostitos. Everyone else can have "authentic."

Seriousmente.

235 Anybody up for some homo-erotic volleyball?

236 I believe government has no right to know your income or its source. That scratches out the income tax. The only tax that is left that I can stand is a simple sales tax, no more than 5-10%.

237 "Even under the current complicated income tax scheme, the taxpayer-voter has a pretty good idea of how much of his annual income gets sent off to Washington, D.C." Like Commenter #3, I strongly disagree. If the taxpayer or voter truly had a "pretty good idea" about this, he/she wouldn't be sucked in by the "soak the rich" B.S. from the left.

238 243 Anybody up for some homo-erotic volleyball?

Fuck no, I am beat, that Ace asshole is up here fucking with me.

Giving Valu rite to hobos to vote for Sean has got to be illegal.

239 233

we only allow in smoking hot illegal females, the rest, oh well...pound sand

Posted by: navycopjoe aka democrat god, Cubbies Fan, and AoShq diversity commenter at October 16, 2010 05:34 PM (gg4j2)

--But if they're allowed in, are they illegal?

Posted by: logprof at October 16, 2010 05:37 PM (BP6Z1)

That's how smikin' hot they are, by definition they're illegal. They put the grrr in tiger!  Forbidden fruit and all that. YEAH BABY!!!

240 Structure the VAT in a very industry-neutral way, and require 3/4 of the states to ratify any changes to it. 

241 Everyone else can have "authentic."

Seriousmente.

Posted by: FireHorse at October 16, 2010 05:56 PM (sWynj)

--That's the irony.  When tourists go to the Mayan Riviera, they don't want "authentic" southern Mexico.  Not only would they like "authentic" Cuba even less, Cuba itself does not want tourists to see "authentic" Cuba.

242 HEH...

I went to a Walgreens (instead of the Indian Rez, as is my wont) and bought a carton of smokes.

Close to $60, which was remarked on by the clerks and the default lib lady with the cute baby in line behind me.

She was so shocked at the price that she gasped and totally forgot her objections to smoking in general.

I quipped that the price is 75% taxes.  This *pointing at carton* should cost about $10 to $20 retail.

"Why would you keep buying them, then?"

"Well, quitting smoking is kind of hard in the best of situations but getting nudged by fake social pressure just kind of pees me off.  Probably a rationalization but I feel kind of compelled to keep being a smoker as some sort of a cultural push-back."

"You know it's bad for you, to smoke."

"Yep. It's a filthy habit that I would not recommend to anyone.  Still...want to watch me light one up?"

I shouldn't be this close to 40 and have taking a puff on a cigarette be more transgressive than it was in a corn-field when I was 10 with all of the "bad kids".

243 Anybody up for some homo-erotic volleyball?

Eeew!

Not really.

But if it's "that scene" from Top Gun, I'm in!

No offense to Navy Fliers, homos, volleyball players, and  various eroticists but that bit of film has been cracking me up since I was a kid.

244

VAT...yes, just what we need. After all, it is has worked SOOO wonderfully for Europe.

All the things pointed out are true - we can give our friends 'breaks' and punish our enemies (moreso than now).

Are some of you finally getting WHY we don't trust, and indeed, depise, RINOs and want hardcore Conservatives?

Rewarding some industries with targeted tax breaks and punishing others is already widespread; I don't see how a VAT would make it more or less likely.

If a VAT would result in paying less in taxes, I'm for it.  If it means paying more, I'm against it.  How it's collected isn't terribly important.

245

Speaking of cultural push-back (and circling around to Tostitos) --

I have a habit perhaps worse than smoking. I really like Tostitos cheese dip. Once I empty the jar, it's nearly impossible to rinse clean for recycling. I can scrub the thing with hot water and dishwashing soap, or I can put it in the recycling bin with cheese around the rim so it can stink and attract bugs for a week, or I can throw it in the garbage.

Guess which one I do? (Hint: I'm not one to turn chips and Tostitos cheese dip into work, and disposal of the jar is usually accompanied by my saying, "Go to hell, planet.")

246

I'd like to see a Constitutional amendment mandating  where and how Congress can allocate money outside of wartime or periods of genuine national disaster.

Welcome to the world of perpetual war and endless natural disaster...

247 Once I empty the jar, it's nearly impossible to rinse clean for recycling.

Wow.

You have to to dishes for your TRASH?

Me, any sort of gunked up liquid cheese container is frikken garbage once I'm done with it.

Out of my house!

Why the hell should we be separating our trash in the first place?

Even worse, why the fuck do we keep garbage in our houses, extra days, for special pick-up?

248

no energy to read everything, but...

amend the Constitution: eliminate the income tax altogether or no VAT. Period.

Question: how exactly do you define adding value..? Have you added value by transporting bourbon from Kentucky to Maine? How much? Do you cut the VAT when you cut the price on day old bread or bananas that are turning brown?

Much better to cut the Fedl govt down to size, simplify the income tax, cut the rates on investment returns to encourage investment. Maybe cut the unions down to size, and bring in tort reform. Yeah, I know, I sound like one of those stupid Tea Party People; maybe I need to spend more time reading the NY Times, especially Krugman. Barf.

249 In China life is cheap, very cheap. Just ask Chairman Mao.

250 How it's collected isn't terribly important.

Hollowpoint, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I think that you are an idealist who gets bitter when plans run up into reality and then take the pose of the cynic when you (invariably) are disappointed.

251

Question: how exactly do you define adding value..? Have you added value by transporting bourbon from Kentucky to Maine? How much? Do you cut the VAT when you cut the price on day old bread or bananas that are turning brown?

Damn good questions.

252 Replace all federal taxes with the VAT, apply it equally to everything.  No extra federal fees applied to any products, or services, and people will have a much better idea how much of their money they're paying to the feds.  If you get a receipt at the grocery store, showing that you paid Mr. Grocer 200 dollars, of which, 100 dollars went to the government, you're going to have a much better idea of the amount of your money the feds take than you do now.

Yeah, it's a pipe dream.  But look at the convoluted clusterfuck that is the U.S. tax code now.  Anything that simplifies this gordian knot of bullshit, exemptions for favored industries, penalties for others, protectionism, etc, will give everyone who pays taxes, (which is everyone), an accurate picture of just how much money the feds demand from us, and exactly how much each and every one of us actually pay.

253 Good post Gabe: Something I don't often here mentioned: VATs drive the formation of horizontal monopoly. Because value added transactions are taxed as the product is passed from business entity to business entity, there is a significant advantage to bringing the entire production pipeline under one legal roof. VATs suck.

254 Avoid VAT like the plague it is.Really Mitch Daniels?

255

Hollowpoint, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I think that you are an idealist who gets bitter when plans run up into reality and then take the pose of the cynic when you (invariably) are disappointed.

Idealist???  Pistols at dawn, sir.

How can one not be cynical about our current tax system?  Does anyone not think it's a convoluted mess?

I don't know if a VAT and/or flat tax would be better; I'd have to see details on how it's implemented.  However, suggesting that it would be open to discriminatory taxation for different entities isn't a good argument against it- that's commonplace with our current Rube Goldbergian tax system.

If taxes were lower under a VAT / flat tax system, how would that be a bad thing?  I do think our tax system should be much simpler- when even small business (and many individuals) feel they have to hire a tax preparer just for the privledge of paying taxes because they're too complicated, something is wrong.

 

 

256 I was stationed in Iceland which had a VAT.  It was bad enough that they had customs inspectors at the entrances to the base to make sure we didn't bring say a 6 pack of beer out into town and disrupt the local economy.  You literally had to stop and declare even fast food from the on base Wendy's.

On the other hand you knew exactly how much the government was getting because most of the stores put it right on the price tags.  As I recall it was like 23.75%

257 I wish people would remember to debunk the "efficient" meme. Unless you really mean that you think offloading more compliance costs to the private sector is what you mean by "efficient."

I've been debating this for years, and I of course mean no offense to any of you fine fellows and ladies who have expressed the opinion that the VAT is a viable replacement for other tax systems, but I think you should all be locked up for my (and your own) protection.

The most intrusive, the most complicated, the most easily abused, and the most easily concealed (from the voter) tax system ever devised. It manages to combine the complexity and unfairness of the income tax with the compliance costs of the corporate tax system and the regressiveness of a sales tax. It is, indeed, the pinnacle of the evolution of bad ideas in finance.

Why don't you just make national rent control and maybe a maximum wage while you're at it? Give that old economic engine a REAL shafting?

Maybe randomly burn down office buildings. You know, the broken windows fallacy, er, I mean policy.

258 You know, I'm totally conflicted about this.  On the one hand, I think taxing wages (and therefore labor) is deeply immoral.  Yes, immoral - particularly the way we do it (through withholding, government taking the first bite of the apple before the laborer ever gets to even sniff it).

And I have no similar philosophical or moral problem with consumption taxes in general.  Taxing consumption is, for the most part, a voluntary enterprise - if you don't want to pay lots of taxes, you don't buy the stuff that's heavily taxed.  Easy-peasy.

But the VAT, which adds a vig at every stage of the life cycle of a good or service, is an abomination.  It's totally stealthy (which is of course why pols love it so much), ludicrously complicated, would easily proliferate as complex set of rules as our current income tax, it turns literally every business into a wing of the IRS, and we can count on the Fed.Gov to implement it in probably the most economically destructive manner possible.  They'll probably invent new and interesting ways to make a VAT in the US the worst on the planet - and that would actually be pretty difficult to do.

Then there's that whole problem with the constitutionality of the income tax - meaning that unless the 16th amendment was ever repealed (which will never, ever happen) we would of course eventually end up with a hideous income tax and a monstrously hideous VAT.

Well played, Mitch Daniels.

259 VAT..We need to support all the cushy government worker salaries, pensions and benefits.

260 VAT has an advantage in international trade, as the VAT is rebated to exporters while importers have to pay it right off the docks. Say the US exports a tin of Almond Roca to Taiwan. It gets hit with a 5% VAT when it arrives. When Taiwan ships a TV set the United States, the exporter gets to apply for a VAT rebate. I think the VAT is no more insidious than the sales tax (8.25% in CA now.) or the income tax that sorta hides in your paycheck. I would say 50% of Americans have no clue what their tax burden is. If we had a flat tax with or without a VAT, and moved tax day to be a week before the election, I think we would have a very clear idea of what the tax rate was overall and politicians could compete on that rate. Now, of course, they try to hide everything.

261 Wow.  Mitch Daniels just ended his shot at being president.  Is it possible for a Republican to be more obtuse to the current political environment?

262

I'm sure the Dems will be all for letting the Republicans propose and implement a new form of taxation on the nation.

How stupid is Mitch Daniels? It seems like pretty much every leader in the country with a shot at the presidency is a weapons grade imbecile.

 

263 Haven't read all the comments yet, so someone may have beaten me to this...

"So, no, obscurity isn't intrinsically built in to a VAT."

Actually, ALL A VAT IS is obscurity.  A true VAT is a tax on value added, not a sales tax.  That means that every step in the manufacturing, processing, logistics, and sales chain has a tax, AND THE CONSUMER NEVER SEES WHAT THAT TAX IS!!!eleventy!

THIS is why a VAT is a socialist's wet dream.  A VAT is the worst possible form of taxation.  It is a hidden revenue stream from the customer's standpoint.  It distorts the production & logistics market by rewarding big vertical (self-owned) supply chains [if you minimize the times your product changes owners, you minimize the tax paid at each step (where the value gets added, you see) and your product is available for less at the retailer] - this of course is statist, socialist, top-down command & control production at its finest.  Easy to squeeze, easy to control.  "I say, eleventy million left boots, comrades!  Four million Right boots!"

I hate taxes.  However, some level of government is necessary, and it must be paid for somehow.  My thought is that a 10% retail sales tax, no exceptions, no rebates, no refunds, no checks back from the government, is the most equitable (not fairest) way to go.  Everybody must pay taxes.  I also liked the idea I saw above that the feds audit the states, and that's that.  No personal auditing, no corporate auditing, at the federal level.  Let the states handle that when necessary.

Yes, there will be some black market activity that bypasses the tracked retail markets.  Bartering will also be popular for those with the skills, the savvy, and the balls.  But if you stop penalizing people for making money, they will make more.  And if you stop penalizing people for saving, they will save (and thus earn still) more.  If people have more money, they will spend it.  And if you stop distorting economic activity by providing tax incentives for some things and penalties for others, the economy will become stronger because more rational decisions will be made.

And, I hate my current job, but the company's reasonably stable right now.  So I'm all in for some stronger economy.  How 'bout y'all?

264 If we must have a different tax system then, in lieu of all other federal taxes, I favor a monetary transaction tax. Say a 2% charge every time money changes hands. Consider it the cost of doing business in the U.S.

265 THANK YOU for this post. I cannot possibly describe how much I agree with you on this, the awfulness of the VAT idea cannot ever be overstated. I am going to give Daniels a pass on this and hope it was just him thinking out loud, but not taking it seriously. It is a MAJOR fail.

266 Poland, Czech Republic, Romania, etc. .... these people know a thing or two about government run [fill in the blank].   Take a look at what they don't have: complicated tax schemes (VAT, FLAT or SMAT), mind boggling enviro regulations, out of control government spending.  Anybody getting my drift here?

Here in the people's republic of NC, we used to have small taxes and small government, and 2 or 3 percent unemployment.  Then, all these libtards from up north moved down here and voted in the same type of democrud who had wrecked whatever northern state they came from.  You guessed it ...   We now have high taxes, huge government, and 15% unemployment.  In every county, the public school system is the largest single employer.   Our brilliant governator Bev Perdue took every dime of stimulus sight unseen; spent it all in a week; and the state government is still broke.  We're about to elect another screaming libtard to the senate.  Then we'll have a trifecta: both senators and the governor card carrying daughters of the confederacy. 

 

267 Don't have anything to add since its been covered already.  Except VAT applies to every stage.  Think of that old problem of starting with one penny on a chessboard and doubling the sum until every square is filled, you would be a millionaire.  That is how stealthy a VAT is in robbing.

268  A lot of you guys opposed to a VAT are shooting fact free bullets.

It's efficient because it taxes only value added, not sale price like a sales tax, not because it's easy to collect or calculate. Sales tax encourages vertical integration even in situations where that is naturally inefficient. The steel mill buying from the miner pays 5%, the middleman pays 5%, the metal stamper pays 5%, the next middleman pays 5%, the retailer pays 5%, hey why don't we amalgamate them all into BigBloodyStupid CombinedCo., then we save all those five percents.

As for compliance, give me a break, every bit of sales/accounting software in the world either has a slot for it or can be modified quick.

As for being hidden, that's complete crap. Up here in formerly soviet Canada we have a VAT and we all see it front and centre every damn time we pay for anything and we grind our teeth in rage. There's a big difference between getting a pay check with a separate slip showing with-holdings and an in-your-face VAT.

I go into a liquor store for a bottle of $9.99 EverClear, hand buddy a ten and buddy says, hey buddy another fiddy cents for tax. Wot, fiddy cents? For what? Fuckers.

269 Did my comment before seeing Puma's comment. She has it exactly, one hundred percent, backwards.

Yes it applies over the whole chain of production, but the total is one, repeat one, tax at the VAT rate.

A sales tax also applies on every sale but the total is unlimited. The tax rate applies at every stage.

270 Good point. Thank you for sharing

271

I think a lot of you are missing the real power of the fairtax if it replaces income taxes.

I run a small business, but have to run Qbooks software to calculate the withholdings, federal deposits and prepare quarterly 941's.  It's a bit cumbersome.  Fairtax would allow me to run a simple  eXcel sheet.

Now imagine a mega company like ford or IBM who no longer has the costs associated with payroll taxes.  Many of our lost companies will come home to do business again when you remove the burden of the IRS requirement to seize employees money and deposit/track it for them.  Accountants would be negatively impacted but, they're accountants so who cares?

 

272 test

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275 Fuck taxes.

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