1

I don't know that I have hope for Iraq, after seeing Turkey fall back into the abyss.

2 India will inherit the Earth.

3 Way to depress me right before I get off work. At least I have buying beer to look forward to.

4
Well, at least Israel lasted a helluva lot longer than the EU is gonna.

5 Excellent post, Ace.

6 I'm not looking out for a magnanimous post-European Islam. Once the shark has tasted blood it goes into a frenzy.

7 as for America..that much of the population could be fooled with columns, light shows, auras, and Jon Stewart as a news source, well damn it all.

8 As foretold by the Prophet, Mark Steyn.

9 Racism!

10 Well if this is it...then I'm going to go out speaking the King's.

11

Subsidization is not libertarian-friendly means. Not at all.

At any rate, they ought to outlaw the business. Or not... Italy's abortion laws are much, much saner then ours are. I don't have problems with morning after pill inside the first 4 weeks really.

 But.... the feminists who are bitching have a point, the whole idea is idiotic. In the midst of a recession.... but no less, they've gotten together enough money to offer it to may 1000 women at most. Everyone who wants the money, even if they were never going to abort, is going to claim they were to get it and it will be gone like that.

And then what? A woman who actually was aborting because she thought herself too poor to raise children, even if she manages to grab one of the free gubmint handouts for pregnant chicks, isn't going to be any better off a year later when the 5 grand has long since ran out.

12 The Europeans might ask the Egyptian Copts how well submitting to Muslim rule worked out for them.

13 I'm thinking of starting a Sharia law school.

14
Ralph Peters was on the local talkers, today. He provided an excellent summation and analysis.

15 Interesting comparison of Islam vs/ Christianity growth rate here. On the plus side Christianity will retain numerical advantage for the next 200 years.

16 I don't think the Islamic takeover is inevitable. I think the Muslims will press their advantage too early -- before they even have a majority, let alone overwhelming numbers. We already are seeing a backlash in places like France.

I encourage the backlash. I think Europe should ban Muslim immigration. And if necessary they should just ban Islam, expelling the Muslims if they have to. I don't think that's necessary yet.

I think America should ban Muslim immigration now. The constitution isn't a suicide pact.

Islam is a poison. Islam is a cancer. It can't co-exist with other faiths or freedom of conscience. The heart of Islam is murder and domination. It's us or them.

If we keep them out then we can co-exist peacefully. They can live in 7th century barbarism and we can live in civilization.

As to Europe. The Reconquista happened once. It'll happen again if necessary.

17 And the American President, which mistakes "European" for "sophistication of thought," of course echoes his cousins across the Atlantic.

What does Kenya have to do with Europe?

_{*ducks and runs*}

18 We need to get the space program back on the fast track. Develop inter-galactic travel and terra-forming technology.

Then, take off and nuke the Earth from orbit. It's the only way to be sure they don't follow.

19 Savage dissected and analyzed this last night and neailed it

20 As to Europe. The Reconquista happened once. It'll happen again if necessary. Posted by: huh at June 02, 2010 04:07 PM (+ABdJ) The Reconquista took 700 years and was spectacularly bloody. Are we sure the Europeans have the stomach for that anymore?

21 Even in its heyday with the Ottoman empire the Muslim world was backwards and despotic. When they take over Europe civilization in Europe will cease to exist.

All of the so-called "education" and advances attributed to Muslims is mostly a myth. What they did was take the inventions of the culture in India and do some improvements.

22 What about the children from relations with camels?

23 Dude. I just went over to Little Brown Shitballs, just to see the chatter over there (Ok, it's like looking at your ex-girlfriend's Facebook page to see how fat and ugly she's become...). Anyway, to their credit, they're actually siding w/ Israel on this one.

I guess a broken clock can be right twice a day, huh?

24 It all sounds like the prelude to Tom Kratman's novel "Caliphate".  Wherein he shows what happens to Islamic Europe.

25 I have a question on the Demographics is Destiny issue:  If Islam takes over Europe, who will feed the revanchist hordes?  Who will cure their many infant killing diseases?  

The only reason that Islamic culture is ascending anywhere, rather than returning to its normal Afghanistanic level of poverty, ignorance, and despair, is through the largess of the West.  When Western Europe goes, the plague will burn itself out.

26 Whenever my wife (who is Catholic) and I (whom is generic christian) discuss what religion are future kids will be raised under, we decided that we'll do the best we can to educate them about them all and let them choose, except Islam.--even though rumor has it it's a religion of peace.

27
For how many years have I been comparing the tactics of the Palestinians/Muslims and the Left in the U.S? They both lie, make up shit, attack, and play victim.

Andrew McCarthy made the same connection and he wrote a book about it.

28 Rule number one: Don't bring a paintball gun to a naval battle.

29 The Reconquista took 700 years and was spectacularly bloody. Are we sure the Europeans have the stomach for that anymore?

After a hundred years of burqas, rapes, and female gentile mutilation, among other things, they'll change their tune.

30 The Reconquista took 700 years and was spectacularly bloody. Are we sure the Europeans have the stomach for that anymore?

Posted by: joncelli at June 02, 2010 04:11 PM (RD7QR)

It also happened because there were enough Europeans around to do it.

The future belongs to those who at least show up.

31 banned

32 I know we make fun of Scandis, but I truly feel sorry for those women over there who have to deal with scumbag "immigrants" who think it's ok to ravage them because they wear a skirt. 

33 If Islam takes over Europe, who will feed the revanchist hordes?

Do they ever turn down food and medicine from the Great Satan after disasters?

34 Rule number two : There's no such thing as Peaceful Islam.

35

From the article on rape crisis in Norway:

“Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes” because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. The professor’s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: “Norwegian women must realize that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”

Don't tell me again that the Scandis are "progressive".

36

All of the so-called "education" and advances attributed to Muslims is mostly a myth.

That even sounds generous, if you mostly know what I mean.

37

That was good/depressing.  Made me think we're finally frittering away the western victory purchased with Leonidas' blood.  

New York, New York New Dark, New Age

Start spreading the fatwa, I'm leaving today
I want to be a part of it--New Dark, New Age
These egalitarian shoes, are longing to stray
Right to the very heart of shit--New Dark, New Age

I want to wake up in a town without freedom of speech!
And find I've converted the infidels, that I'm king of the trash-heap

These civilized blues, are going away
I'm gonna make a brand new start of it--in a New Dark Age!
If I can convert 'em then, I'll convert 'em anywhen!
It's up to you--New Dark, New Age!

These civilized blues, are going away
I'm gonna make a brand new start at hate--in a New Dark Age!
If I can kill 'em then, I'll kill 'em anywhen
It's up to you--New Dark, New Age!

38

Most nations of the West will be extinct within 50-75 years

This may or may not be true but we have no goddamn idea. It's the one thing Steyn is always consistently wrong (and kinda dumb) on.

The "lets take current rates, with recent historical trends, and extrapolate them out 50 years as if these things were static and there were no external factors or dynamic feedback mechanisms" is what had people whining 30 years ago the earth was going to be overpopulated and we'd all starve.

Using that method on the temperature between 6 and noon, I can extrapolate and create a model that predicts the temperature will be 228 degrees farenheit by next wednesday and the Atlantic will boil.

As I've said before, it's like watching a retard chase a pendulum.

He has no concept of the mechanism or how it works, so he keeps running off under it and then turning around, confused, and going the other way.

Ice age, global warming, ice age, global warming, ice age...

Too many people, too many people! .... birth rates go down... time to rejoice? No. Too few people, too few people!

39

Survival is the first law of nature.

By any means necessary.

40 Whoa, this blog is verging on claiming some paleocon bonafides!

41 O/T: Sigh ... "Stung by a series of inquiries, nearly half the members of the Congressional Black Caucus want to scale back the aggressive ethics procedures that Democrats trumpeted after gaining control of Congress."

42

sock off

43 Rule number three: Don't bring a population of secularized Euroweenies to a demographic fight.

44 And to think Patrick Buchanan was called a racist and ecerything else under the sun for Death of teh West! 

45 The left in this country and around the world speak of overpopulation, so the West has fewer babies. They push abortion on demand, so we have more abortions. They push multiculturalism, so we ignore cultural norms abhorrent to any civilized society. The left, especially the media, hide evidence of crime and intolerance in order to not offend., meanwhile they vilify  the right for pointing out problems with their narrative.If you haven't read Nicholas Kristof's review of Ayann Hirsi Ali's book Nomad, take a look It's entitled Gadfly. The left is ensuring a world for our grandchildren that will extremely dangerous if not unlivable.

46

_{“Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes” because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative.}

Did you see the way that Corrie chick was dressed?

Of course I hit her!

47 It's hard to imagine Germany being over run by muslims - that would be bloody.

48

Well written.  Depressing,but really well written. 

Second the motion on the space program.

49

who think it's ok to ravage them because they wear a skirt. 

That skirt could be down to the mid-calf but it would still be provocative if a half inch of shin was showing. And it's not even the manner of dress, it's the fact that they are infidel females and therefore worthy of abuse.

50 As a dispute resolution process, brute force does have a lot going for it as opposed to relying on moral suasion and the appeal to sweet reason.

51 He has no concept of the mechanism or how it works, so he keeps running off under it and then turning around, confused, and going the other way. Posted by: Entropy Ok, so enlighten us. Is a population's birthrate determined by the number of women of childbearing age or not?

52   Sorry, but the other races do not maintain the sense of community, independence and work ethic as the white ones do.

Eh.  I grew up in a 99% white community.  Plenty of deadbeats demanding others pay their way through life.  There's nothing magical about white skin (...so can we please stop penalizing children for having it?).

53

Israel becomes more isolated every day by a Europe which wants to forget why, precisely, it should be the case that so many formerly European Jews are now in the State of Israel

 

and if it's an outrage for Jews to be in the Middle East, why is it not an outrage for Muslims to be in Europe?

54

Did you see the way that Corrie chick was dressed?

Of course I hit her!

^{Posted by: the Bulldozer at June 02, 2010 04:19 PM (pFJuu)}

Thread Winner

55

Too many people, too many people! .... birth rates go down... time to rejoice? No. Too few people, too few people!

Posted by: Entropy at June 02, 2010 04:17 PM (IsLT6)

Is there a point to your inchoate bullshit?

56

The Unenlightenment

57 In 100 years the former US will just be another political economy full of mongrels that don't think 5 years into the future and only care where their next malt beverage and ejaculation are comming from. Posted by: A Wyatt Man at June 02, 2010 04:15 PM (WGcw3) Leave that kind of thing at StormFront.

58

@38

NOT SO FAST!

There are numbers now regarding the ALREADY BORN youth of the non western populations and there are numbers of the youth of current western culture. Given those numbers alone, there is population momentum which can be accurately predicted, that will show the decline of even the numbers that will be alive to produce the babies within the culture. Add to that the FACT that though we all seem to be so ethnocentric as to think people will turn from their own culture and embrace ours, they won't and DON'T. We see more and more demonization of who we are even by our own......libtard self haters who welcome our enemies like new kittens!

59 The Endarkment

60 Judaism and Christianity have become mature religions, going away from the days killing heretics to just praying.  Unfortunately with that maturity came naivete.  Progressivism lent a helping hand also.

Islam, not so much.

In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals.

61 Then let's just kill all the brown people!

62

The Age of Aquarius and Slimy Shitstain People

63 In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals.

Neh.  I'll skip it.

64 In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals. Yeah. Under a prolonged siege by Islam I can see a religion like Mormonism being the majority religion in the US.

65 What do you think will happen when half of france is on fire and there is no more goverment.

66   62 Then let's just kill all the brown people!

Posted by: A Fucking Simpleton at June 02, 2010 04:25 PM (SnEnF)

No, let's just stand up for our cuture, quit being ashamed of being American and or Western, demand people come her speak the language and assimilate. Why not do that for a change, huh?

67 I will say this. The left, in the West, will be the 1st group to die off and lose political power, except in America.

68 66 What do you think will happen when half of france is on fire and there is no more goverment. Posted by: Cynical prick at June 02, 2010 04:27 PM (+QHvX) Will anybody notice the difference?

69
This morning Malaka knocked on the bathroom door and poked her little head in and said, "Daddy, did you bailout Greece yet?"

70

Well, it was a good run.  Y'all take care, now.

71

Good overview of a depressing subject -- but it is at times like this that I am reminded of my dear old dad's advice to me: "whatever else, survive!  even if you have to eat dirt and live like an animal, lie, cheat, steal, kill -- you do it, you take whatever is dished out, and you fight to keep your family and yourself alive -- that is a great victory in and of itself; never give up".

Dad was a tough old bastard, and he was right about a lot of things imho.  I don't plan on going quietly into any good night, and I hope to instill that attitude in my kids.

72 It'll suck to lose Europe, but one bright spot is the fact that Christianity is growing much faster Islam around the world. The Christian population is really exploding in Africa and Asia. This is good news even for atheists, since Christian populations tend to be more pro-American, and they fill a vacuum that Islamism or other bad -isms would otherwise occupy.

73 The Path To Decay

74 Chimpocalypse

75 perhaps, in the future... those tendencies will be eclipsed by a more charitable and ethical code.
Nope.
Skeletons on the Zahara by Dean King details how Muslim overlords treat others.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/22uxaa2

76 Banned. Rightzilla... sorry dude, you're gone.

77

Islam is a poison. Islam is a cancer. It can't co-exist with other faiths or freedom of conscience. The heart of Islam is murder and domination. It's us or them.

This.

I now believe that Iraq was a terrible mistake. We should have carpet bombed Baghdad. But first, we should have exterminated the Saudi government.

Fuck nation building. Kill them as quickly and cheaply as possible. Us or them. I choose us.

78

69

the msm will when the blood starts to flow.

79 Fuckedupenment

80 Anyone remember dick Lamm's tirade about multiculturalism?

81 The left, in the West, will be the 1st group to die off and lose political power, except in America.

Posted by: Dr Spank at June 02, 2010 04:27 PM (pEK05)

They'll convert faster than you can say "slave."

82 "Good overview of a depressing subject -- but it is at times like this that I am reminded of my dear old dad's advice to me: "whatever else, survive!  even if you have to eat dirt and live like an animal, lie, cheat, steal, kill -- you do it, you take whatever is dished out, and you fight to keep your family and yourself alive -- that is a great victory in and of itself; never give up"."

But if you're rich enough, just pay a doctor to kill your "family" and continue to live your fun life!

83 What do you think will happen when half of france is on fire and there is no more goverment.


Weenie roast?

84 SOCK! to the STOCKADE!

85 In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals.

Quick!  Man the Bible Study Guides, the underwear, and the marshmallow jello molds!!

86

Can't we just have an honest discussion about race for once?

No, we really can't yet. No more than you can have an "honest discussion" about crime with a criminal's gun to your head.

87 #61  In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals there will be only chaos.  FIFY.

#38. The "lets take current rates, with recent historical trends, and extrapolate them out 50 years as if these things were static and there were no external factors or dynamic feedback mechanisms" is what had people whining 30 years ago the earth was going to be overpopulated and we'd all starve.

So what will be the "green revolution" for the demographic decline in Western countries?  I don't know if Steyn is completely correct, but he makes one hell of a good argument - the future belongs to those who show up.  If Germany, Japan, and Russia are the demographic models the West as a whole are following, well, it doesn't look too good for us, does it?

88

#48 Any good, QM?  I have a Borders coupon I need to use.

 

Yes, I liked it.  Kratman writes good carnographic SF.  His books with Ringo are great as well.  He really gets his gore on in The Desert Called Peace series. Which is basically his take on how to fight Radical Islam...only set off earth so that is not an examination of current events, so to speak.

89 A possibility Steyn overlooks, or never says (as far as I know), is that the West's states seem to be on a course to fail before its nations (as demographic entities) do. They're going to be replaced by something—in part, by governments that won't go down without a fight, and in part by...another kind.

There are signs of it happening already. You can pick out who's going to be who in 2060 pretty well right now, can't you?

I'd bet on an unprecedentedly murderous decades-long war between a huge Western Europe/England/Scandinavia/Russia/Caliphate/Bolivarian/etc. empire versus, at a guess, a goofy US/Israel/India/Ireland/East Bloc team, with China playing Stalin, joining late, and raking up half the world at the end. I mean, I'd bet that over mere collapse. That's hard to imagine.

90 Its hard for me to criticize them without a pang in my side. Posted by: polynikes at June 02, 2010 04:31 PM (m2CN7) [Leftard idiot] But he's go those dreamy pecs....[/Leftard idiot] Seriously, though, the left will happily abet Islam in destroying the west on the theory that they'll just turn on Islam and finish them off too. They're in for a rude surprise, of course, but it'll be too late for us.

91 Given that Islam means submission, I don't see how that religion can reconcile itself with freedom.

92

Is a population's birthrate determined by the number of women of childbearing age or not?

Not solely, no. It's limited by the number of women by childbearing age, but never reaches it's limits anyway. If it did, the population of Europe would double every 5 years and the average 50 year old would have something like 20 kids.

Did the population bomb happen, or did it not?

Did the Ice Age commeth, or not?

Is there a point to your inchoate bullshit?

Yes.

93 Tag deflation strikes again.

94

I now believe that Iraq was a terrible mistake. We should have carpet bombed Baghdad. But first, we should have exterminated the Saudi government.

Fuck nation building. Kill them as quickly and cheaply as possible. Us or them. I choose us.

As a recovering neocon, I have to agree.  Given he was accused of it anyway, Dubya should've flat-out taken over Iraq and Saudi Arabia.  That would deprive political Islam of most of their petrodollars (no more funding for radical US mosques), get us guaranteed cheap oil, and put Russia and China firmly in check.

95

 Sorry, but the other races do not maintain the sense of community, independence and work ethic as the white ones do.

Utter racist bullshit.

Race hasn't got a thing to do with it. It's culture.

P.S. China and India called. They said to tell you that your kid sucks at math, science and engineering.

96 79

69

the msm will when the blood starts to flow.

Posted by: Cynical prick at June 02, 2010 04:30 PM (+QHvX)

No they won't; not even then. They will have to be dragged kicking and screaming.

97 73 It'll suck to lose Europe, but one bright spot is the fact that Christianity is growing much faster Islam around the world. The Christian population is really exploding in Africa and Asia.

This is good news even for atheists, since Christian populations tend to be more pro-American, and they fill a vacuum that Islamism or other bad -isms would otherwise occupy.

Posted by: Stace at June 02, 2010 04:29 PM (g/wgk)

That is good...so long as they produce like catholics and mormons. IF tehy produce like evangelicals, then it won't have near the impact as the production of teh muslim populations.

98 Very good Ace but put me down for calling BS on the whole European extinction thing too.  The every increasing desent will eventually throw a strongman forward and we will all feel really sorry for all the Muslims then. They won't be hiding the mass graves, they'll plant statues on top of them.  And no the Muslims will never be civilized in the way we think of the word. To be civilized you must place a civil  code over a religious one and that they just won't do. What you may see instead is mass conversions. as the result of enforced Arabic dominance in the Muslim world.

99 Quick!  Man the Bible Study Guides, the underwear, and the marshmallow jello molds!!

OK, let's try this:

In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals Scot-Irish.

Happy now?

100

"Ok, so enlighten us. Is a population's birthrate determined by the number of women of childbearing age or not?"

No, it is not. Birthrate is determined by the number of women actually having children, and how many they have. One woman having ten kids beats five women having one each, and five more having none at all. Consequently birthrates can change rather quickly, up or down, under the right cultural influences.

101 you are all forgetting one thing, it's our political elite that are doing this to us against our will.  when the time comes, we will fight and fight hard. we will have nothing else to lose.

102 we all seem to be so ethnocentric as to think people will turn from their own culture and embrace ours

Sometimes they embrace our dysfunctional subcultures. 

103 "Race hasn't got a thing to do with it. It's culture."

LOL!  Like race and culture are different in any significant way.

104

peanut, heh. I knew Ace had a reason not to ban us (or some of the other "sleeper" reactionaries, who I shan't name). But I personally go by the label "reactionary" - "feudalist", "authoritarian", "Pinochetist" and "royalist" might also work - and not paleo- or any other sort of "con".

As for the demographics in Europe, the man to read is Theodore Dalrymple, particularly The New Vichy Syndrome. The poster Monty here (not a paleocon / monarchist / whatever; he's safe) has told us that he reads Dalrymple.

Dalrymple doesn't think that Islamic birthrates will outpace European birthrates for long (and remember also the Sikhs etc in Europe, who will side with the Europeans). He also thinks that the "Muslims" in Europe are mostly ghetto trash, unlikely to formulate an Islamic identity of the strength even close to, say, the Jewish identity.

This means (although this is my extrapolation, not Dalrymple's) that if Europe gets a few strong rulers, and stranger things have happened, the thugs will leave, or get shot during their last riot; and the truly moderate and productive remainder of the Muslims will assimilate, even by means of adopting Christianity.

105 O/T:  "RAHM EMANUEL (and Valerie Jarrett) SUBPOENAED BY BLAGOJEVICH: ATTORNEY"
"The defense in Blagojevich's case has already subpoenaed Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin and U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. -- all are Democrats.

Sorosky acknowledged that Emanuel, and many others who have been subject of subpoenas, might not actually be called to testify.

"We served a lot of these people just in case they were needed," Sorosky said.
"We don't know if we're going to call them or not. It depends on what happens at trial."

A judge has declined the defense's efforts to subpoena Obama.

106 If you believe Mark Steyn, and I tend to do so, barring some truly massive change in demographic destiny then the world as we know is doomed, to a mathematical certitude, and what battles we fight now are will almost certainly be regarded later as trivial episodes in the much larger and longer view of Islam's demographic energy, and the West's demographic exhaustion.

The one thing that cheers me up is that I'll be dead by then.  Um.  Yay?

107 Out, out damned sock!

108 Ah, the demographic question.  Steyn, playing Hari Seldon, wonders whether tired, grey-haired aging Westerners will ever stand up against young confident Islamists, steadily breeding a replacement population.  He has one answer.

I, remembering the Mule, have another answer.  Somewhere out there, there's an Islamic Mule.  He's a genius among terrorists, who has the ability to pull off a terror attack so spectacular that the West rises up as one and shakes the Islamic world apart in a week.

And somewhere else, there's a Western mule.  How many grey-haired aging Westerners to defeat the entire Islamic world?  I'm guessing, one, just one... if he happens to be a sufficiently upset molecular biologist or virologist.  And oh, the West has a lot of scientists.  You think if Europe goes down, and no Western government tries to prevent it, not a single one of the hundreds of thousands of scientists out there will say "to hell with this"?

Islam, and its consitutent ethnic groups, will not win. All that's to be determined is the nature of their horrific defeat. Conventional war, nuclear destruction, or a mysterious gasping death.

Doesn't bode well for the future of humanity, though.

109

 Sorry, but the other races do not maintain the sense of community, independence and work ethic as the white ones do.

Utter racist bullshit.

Warden, you are a fool.  It's not "utter racist bullshit".  It is "the ramblings of the offspring of a syphilitic whore and the product of incestuous relations between two fucknozzles."

Fuckin' italics. 

And I don't even know he's quoting but it's, uh, utter bullshit.

110 87 "In the end, the only thing that will save us (if it's not too late) will be the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and all the other Evangelicals." Yes, and those are the folks who are converting everyone in Asia and Africa, and even Latin America.

111 52 He has no concept of the mechanism or how it works, so he keeps running off under it and then turning around, confused, and going the other way. Posted by: Entropy

So in 2030 a bunch of 20 year old men are just going to materialize out of nothing?!

No. They have to be born this year. And we know from last year's birth rates that there likely won't be so many non-Muslim male births in Europe. You can quibble with Steyn's assumption about near-term future birth rates, but you can't argue about the demographic impacts of births that have already happened.

112 97

 Sorry, but the other races do not maintain the sense of community, independence and work ethic as the white ones do.

Utter racist bullshit.

Race hasn't got a thing to do with it. It's culture.

P.S. China and India called. They said to tell you that your kid sucks at math, science and engineering.

Posted by: Warden at June 02, 2010 04:34 PM (VMPZa)

What evidence do you have that it is solely culture?

113
This isn't a clash of civilizations.  This isn't some grand final showdown between competing religious ideologies.

One side has people who want to be free.  The other side has people who get off on telling other people what to do and taking their shit.

It's as simple as that.  Jihadists want to saw your head off.  Leftists want to tax your ass off and micromanage your healthcare.

Fuck 'em.  There are many different poisons and many kinds of cancer.  They're all bad.

114 No, it is not. Birthrate is determined by the number of women actually having children, which means taking the cock from men who have the fucking decency to actually be fathers.

With my compliments.

115

84  Well, fortunately or unfortunately (however your pov) I am not wealthy, and am perhaps too much of a masochist to forego the family for a "fun life".  I prefer to see it as a fortunate thing.

Be that as it may; Dad's little diatribe and your response point to something dear old Dad was trying to get through to my hard, young head: people should not get so soft and dependent upon the good things in life and on pleasant civilities -- those may not be guaranteed to stick around; you have to always keep in the back of your mind that chaos and barbarism may be just around the corner, and you will either cope or not cope with that.

 

116 One side has people who want to be free.  The other side has people who get off on telling other people what to do and taking their shit.

You're thinking of Congress, Mike.

117 Item: Italy now pursuing social con reproductive policy through libertarian-friendly means, offering women 4500 Euros to not abort their babies but proceed, as is becoming increasingly rare in Europe, to a live birth.
_________________

When I was living in Italy (ca 1972), there was a "bambino tax" applied to families with more than two children. There were five of us kids at the time, so whenever we'd line up at the bus stop for a family outing, you could see the Italians counting our heads with amazement as they drove zipped by in their little Cinqua Centos.

118 LOL!  Like race and culture are different in any significant way.

Posted by: the peanut gallery at June 02, 2010 04:36 PM (NurK6)

Yeah! Inner city black culture is exactly the same as Carribean black culture! And that is eactly the same as South African black culture!

I recommend that you read Black Rednecks and White Liberals sometime.

119 Europeans with lily white heritage will always have the cold north, or at least the lands of the midnight sun. We're genetically designed for it, and who the hell else wants to live there en masse. Not me, for one, but I'm just saying. Vikings may have been filthy Scandis, but mighty they were.

120
the msm will when the blood starts to flow.

Fort Hood?  Hello?

121 Europeans with lily white heritage will always have the cold north, or at least the lands of the midnight sun.

Uh, dude......

122

Can't we just have an honest discussion about race for once?

I'll honestly admit that I'm prejudiced in favor of the human race.

123 LOL!  Like race and culture are different in any significant way.

There's some data about the black children of West Indies immigrants doing better in American schools than the black children of native-born urbanites.  The difference is stark enough that the race-based-scholarship/college admissions people are demanding the former be cut out of the spoils, since they're getting a disproportionate amount of them.

124 @97

Sigh. That's propaganda, not fact. You know that the US counts all students in its test scores, right? And Asian countries, um, weed out the stupid ones in elementary school and don't let them go up into high school? If you compare whatever percent it is that does to their high schools (versus the equivalent of vo techs) and the same percentile here you get numbers that are statistically identical.

Put it like this: 97% of all patents are awarded to people in the US.

125 Let's ignore the fact that white people have made more contributions to human society (by an order of magnitude) than anyone else, because THAT'S RACIST!!!!

126 On the bright side, It's never wise to underestimate Europe's propensity for violence and fascist pogroms.

127 Get me off this crazy planet!

I wish an ad would appear in my local paper that ran something like this.

MEN WANTED FOR HAZARDOUS JOURNEY OFFWORLD.
SMALL WAGES, BITTER COLD, LONG MONTHS OF COMPLETE DARKNESS,
CONSTANT DANGER, SAFE RETURN DOUBTFUL.
HONOR AND RECOGNITION IN CASE OF SUCCESS.

128 Non-Muslim governed populations "negotiating" in advance with their Jihadist Muslim government rulers, ain't worth spit. Look at Turkey and note that diplomacy is progressing further and further in one direction--GIVE Muslims what they want. Since history replays itself, that includes Muslim ownership of yourself and all that you thought you were, all that you thought a part of you, your family, home, philosophy, career, whatever.

What is this, a vain attempt to create reverse causality?

129 Posted by: Warden at June 02, 2010 04:41 PM

Ah, you beat me to it.

130 Incidentally, does Steyn overstate for effect?  I remember the furore over the appearance of Mohammed, in its various spellings combined, as the number 2 boys' name for England/Wales last year.
But I looked at the figures for births in a particular year - for every Mohammed, there's an Ethan. For every Muhammad, there's a Lucas. For every Mohammad, there's a Reece.  And that's it, no other Islamic names in the top 100 boys' names, none in the girls' - unless Maryam is one, in which case there are as many Courtneys.
So, when the bad stuff happens, if your name is Ethan, Lucas or Reece, well, we'll have you out there, matching the Mohammedan foe man to man.  If they give you a bit too much trouble, we can throw in the Harleys and Blakes as reinforcements.

131

 Inner city black culture is exactly the same as Carribean black culture! And that is eactly the same as South African black culture!

You think you are being sarcastic; but you have not been to South Africa or Jamaica lately.

132

Good, but depressing post...Only answer is to Fuck & Fight, or be a slave to the caliphate. I choose the former.

 

133 Warden, isn't that the book where Sowell tried to say that US black culture is the same or an offshoot of Southern white redneck culture?

Coming from the South myself, I can say... not so much.

134 Islam is always either at your throat or at your feet.

135 I wish an ad would appear in my local paper that ran something like this...

reminds us of Soviet Siberian work camps, re-education centers.

136

If Germany, Japan, and Russia are the demographic models the West as a whole are following

The models are not static.

They are dynamic models.

You don't know what they are right now, you know only what they were last year.

Again, if you look at the models in 1965, from 1930-1960, it seemed like by now we ought have 16 billion people. Yet... we don't. Because behavior changed.

It may be right, it may be wrong, you don't know what you don't know. Maybe the earth WILL be 1 degree warmer on average in 50 years. Or maybe 1 degree colder. Or maybe the same or maybe 8 degrees. If anyone gets it right it's a lucky guess. You can't predict dynamic models 50 years into the future, let alone do it with simple extrapolation off a measly 10 or 20 year trendline.

137

113

question is what happens when the welfare state dies under the burdon of these non productive wasters.

138

Andrew Sullivan gives out some wisdom (which Althouse called him on):

In her column today, [Maureen Dowd] doesn't offer any substantive proposals for the president to stop the oil-gush. His language has been full of rage; he has launched a criminal investigation; he is obviously exasperated; and this is a narrative he simply cannot control. Almost from the start it was clear that only relief wells could stop this, and they take time to drill in that kind of depth.

Maureen has long wanted Obama to be what he isn't. We have a temperamental WASP in the White House. And the whole point of a WASP president - like GHWBush - is that they are best judged over the long term of results rather than the short term of emotion. I can quite see how emotionally, Obama is losing this p.r. war. But since he literally cannot win against a narrative determined by physics, it seems to me that columnists should be pointing out the reality of reality rather than the "reality" of "narrative."

 

What is wrong with this argument?

139 More important than the birthrate will be the kill count. Birthrate was important in the time before automatic and nuclear weapons, now not as much. It doesn't help Muslims much to have 9 more kids per woman than the average non-muslim if the the Non-Muslim can kill Muslims at 20-1.  As long as Muslims lack the ability to  develop and produce weapons on a mass scale they are doomed.  Thankfully the war against Islam will take place mostly in Asia so we can sit back and pay off our Asian debts in trade.

140 Start a new life in the offworld colonies

141 128 On the bright side, It's never wise to underestimate Europe's propensity for violence and fascist pogroms.
Posted by: damian at June 02, 2010 04:44 PM (4WbTI)

Well you know it's bad when we're sorta counting on this to arrest the trend.

142 What is wrong with this argument?

Ganders coming home to roost?

143 Well you know it's bad when we're sorta counting on this to arrest the trend.

Posted by: Mætenloch at June 02, 2010 04:47 PM (f5vi+)

It's bad, just not as bad as the alternative.

144 So does this video damn all of the Hamas supporters or what?

145

What evidence do you have that it is solely culture?

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at June 02, 2010 04:39 PM (oIp16)

I don't know. Simple observation? Ever notice how poor people in America pass on cultural traits that keep them poor, regardless of race?

Ever notice how successful immigrants have similar cultural traits, regardless of where they come from?

BTW, Guns, Germs and Steel is also a good read.

146

Bush and Cheney had in mind to break the Caliphate in Arabia (imho). Any temporary disruption would do long enough for us to formulate a strategy to counter the rise of Islam. What they didn't count on was losing our country to people who think the same way, and have many of the same goals, as the Islamists.

See the New York City MegaMosque for an example. The approval for it was nearly unanimous at whatever building board issued it.

If we don't start electing some real Americans into office, we'll awake to find out that we've been lied to, and we slit our own throats by believing the liars.

147 There's plenty to be pessimistic about these days, but I don't think being demographically outdone by Islam is one of them.  We're the country that planned and prepared for 50 years to end human habitation of earth rather than give up our freedom.  We can do so again.

And if you want to believe we're not capable of defensive genocide on that scale, ask yourself if you really think either the Russians, Chinese, or Indians are going to meekly submit to Hell's religion.

Also worldwide economic collapse is going to hit poorer nations hardest.  There won't be food enough to feed them, nor will they have the resources to pay for it, long before we reach a point where they're voting us into submission.

Finally, even if they can take care of all the problems their backwardsness causes, and we're limited to conventional war, go look at the records of every significant war we've ever fought.  We are always outnumbered, but we are always going to be better motivated than devil worshippers looking for an opportunity to die.

148

Three Effects, One Cause

Two girls, one...

149 Birthrate is determined by the number of women actually having children, which means taking the cock from men who have the fucking decency to actually be fathers


This seems to contradict my observation that most 25-year-old women with seven children have never been married to any of the childrens' fathers.

150

Warden, isn't that the book where Sowell tried to say that US black culture is the same or an offshoot of Southern white redneck culture?

Coming from the South myself, I can say... not so much.

Original southern white redneck culture inherited mostly from Scottish highlanders. Yes. And his evidence is pretty strong.

151 if the the Non-Muslim can kill Muslims at 20-1. --Rocks

"can" vs. "will" or "do"

152 Not sure how one can be called a racist when speaking of a religion which is really more of a theo/political construct anyway.

The terrible/good thing is that Israel has nukes, which if used in a true existential crisis would alter the muzzie demographics quite seriously.

153 Continue paying pensions to...? lol.

154 Is a population's birthrate determined by the number of women of childbearing age or not? Not solely, no. It's limited by the number of women by childbearing age, but never reaches it's limits anyway. If it did, the population of Europe would double every 5 years and the average 50 year old would have something like 20 kid. Posted by: Entropy Sorry, pointing to failed population explosion BS in no way demonstrates that a population is not LIMITED by the number women of childbearing age. Steyn was writing about an upper-limit per generation. Just how does a population spontaneously develop more WoCA for a successive number of generations without a major societal shift? One that may be unprecedented? Do you see such a shift as a) already beginning, b) probable, c) who knows, or d) unlikely ?

155 Rightzilla, banned.

156

Good, but depressing post...Only answer is to Fuck & Fight, or be a slave to the caliphate. I choose the former.

As the wise sage GG Allin, said, "Drink, fight and fuck."

157

You know that the US counts all students in its test scores, right? And Asian countries, um, weed out the stupid ones in elementary school and don't let them go up into high school?

So, how to explain the trend continuing into higher education?

158 Just how does a population spontaneously develop more WoCA for a successive number of generations without a major societal shift?

Take slaves from the enemy.

159 and remember, most of these mohamedians got to Europe because of lefty legislators who wanted to replace the population so as to get rid of all this cultural anti-communism. So, they hope to be eaten last by the monster that they themselves let in to the castle.

160
now what?

161 147

What evidence do you have that it is solely culture?

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at June 02, 2010 04:39 PM (oIp16)

I don't know. Simple observation? Ever notice how poor people in America pass on cultural traits that keep them poor, regardless of race?

Ever notice how successful immigrants have similar cultural traits, regardless of where they come from?

BTW, Guns, Germs and Steel is also a good read.

Posted by: Warden at June 02, 2010 04:49 PM (VMPZa)

Achievement Gap Politics is also a good read too.

Brought to you by those wild eyes racists at the National Association of Scholars.

http://bit.ly/aUTWd2

162 Rightzilla, banned.

Posted by: ace at June 02, 2010 04:53 PM (66DVY)

Your house, but I must have missed it.  I just thought he was wrong.  Put us some 'effin' knowledge, if you'd be so kind.

163
in b4 all the ass-kissers

164

No. They have to be born this year.

Why, because 19 year olds won't do?

You can quibble with Steyn's assumption about near-term future birth rates,

My quibble is that's all they are - assumptions.

but you can't argue about the demographic impacts of births that have already happened.

Yes, you could.

Do you assume they'll everyone survives? That no one moves? What if burqas are banned, welfare is cut off, jobs are scarce, animosity runs high... etc.

You don't know what France will look like demographically in 20 years.

Nor even if you did, are numbers everything. In war numbers alone confer no advantage.

165

 US black culture is the same or an offshoot of Southern white redneck culture?

I've lived in a trailer park in the Deepest South and South Central Los Angeles. The difference when adjusted for population?

Can't think of anything. People are people. Race is fabricated bullshit. It is all culture.

 

166
she's a she, dipshit

167 More kids, more nukes - my personal slogan

168 The MFM will take notice of France in flames when Johnny Depp moves back to the USA to escape the violence.

169 Frontiers and agriculture seem to promote high birth rates; cities and non-ag economy, low ones. I don't really see why we'd all start breeding a lot all of a sudden.

170 Rightzilla, banned.
must have used up his three verbal warnings.

171

You think you are being sarcastic; but you have not been to South Africa or Jamaica lately.

I've been to Aruba where the locals generally speak 4 languages and in no way resemble inner city ghetto thugs.

172 Frontiers and agriculture seem to promote high birth rates

That's because they produced high child mortality rates.  At some point, in every time in history, each couple has made the decision to pull the pony from the pasture before he bolts.  All depends on circumstances.  When your last 4 kids died in infancy, you leave the dog in.

173
I vote culture.

Underclass is more a state of mind than it is a circumstance.

Look at the Kennedys.

174 I don't really see why we'd all start breeding a lot all of a sudden.

Posted by: ace at June 02, 2010 04:59 PM (66DVY)

Have you seen our new marketing campaign?

175

125 

My sister-in-law is from Grenada and she is very un-pc in her views about inner city black culture.  Her family is very successful here and in Canada.

176 if the the Non-Muslim can kill Muslims at 20-1. --Rocks

"can" vs. "will" or "do"

Posted by: maverick muse at June 02, 2010 04:52 PM (H+LJc)

A British taxi driver went on a killing spree today killing 12 and injuring 25.....over seniority at a fucking taxi stand. What do you think those yobs are going to do when Muslims try to outlaw alcohol?

177

Having worked in the southwest and here in the midwest -- I can attest to the phenomena of the "black redneck" (or even the black cowboy redneck).  Uh, they pretty much live and think the way their white counterparts do.   In fact, I'd say I have more in common with them than with urban whites (and they have more in common with me than they do with urban blacks).  I'm going to have to go with culture over race (besides, actual black Americans are much like their white American fellows -- pretty much mutts; they get much the same snottiness from some Africans as we do from white Euros).

How did this turn into a black/white debate anyway?  I thought this was about the encroaching rop menace???

178

"I don't really see why we'd all start breeding a lot all of a sudden."

Yeah, what if the FCC bans internet pron, what then, huh? 

179 Ann Coulter is still correct

180

Going on a trip to Europe in about two weeks. Can anyone tell me what the weather will be like then?

No, but they can tell me what the world will be like in 75 years? Arrogant.

181 Re: Sowell

Which US black culture? What decade -- century or even region?

The Celtic-American alignment with the "original" African-American slave-emancipation culture?

American black culture since LBJ went to hell in a hand basket.

I fail to connect the comparison between contemporary inner city black organized crime culture aka gangland with no religious affiliation other than to possible Muslim converts to either the "original" Southern rednecks, or their Scottish highlander predecessor's culture.

How could Sowell equate African slaves in America with the American version of Scottish highlanders, or even poor Irish immigrants?

182 >>>How did this turn into a black/white debate anyway? I thought this was about the encroaching rop menace??? Because a large number of people are looking for any chance to talk about the only thing they care about in what they call "politics," the N*gger Menace. They are low-class ghetto scum and get erections whenever RACEWAR is hinted at as topic.

183

Posted by: Jim in San Diego at June 02, 2010 04:57 PM (oIp16)

That's nice. 'Cept I'm not arguing that there isn't a racial achievement gap. I'm just saying it ain't their genetics that's holding them back -- it's their culture. 

184

I don't really see why we'd all start breeding a lot all of a sudden.

Why did we start in 1930?

The economy sucked, food was scarce, the frontiers were a dustbowl... people were dying of dust pneumonia, and starvation, and crime. Then we fought two of the largest wars ever, in which a lot of people were chucked into ovens...

And despite all that, population rates skyrocketed.

I don't see why either. But that's the whole point. You don't see all the whys. We can't predict these things any better than the weather. Even next Tuesday is a 80% probability and the margin gets worse there on out.

 

 

I wish Crichton's speeches hadn't vanished from his website... anyone know where I can find them?

185 Thanks, Ace.  That was particularly shitty threadjacking during an important topic.

186 And the American President, which mistakes "European" for "sophistication of thought," of course echoes his cousins across the Atlantic.

The Precedent HATES Europe.  He hates them almost as much as he hates the US.  But, he likes to use Europe as wedge to split America.  He knows that his useful idiots in America worship Europe, so he plays along whenever it's convenient, but whenever Europe doesn't help The Precedent promote his suicide-bomber, anti-Western agenda, he shits all over Europe just as he shits all over the US. 

In the case with Israel, though, it has nothing to do with Europe.  The Precedent is fervently anti-Israel and pro-arab.  He is anti-Jew and pro-muslim.  In this, Europe's idiocy is perfectly in line with The Precedent's, so he is in sync with them.  But not because he has anything other than contempt and hate for Europe (and the West, in general), only because killing Israel is high up on the agenda of both The Precedent and Europe.

187 well, yeah, city slickers tend to breed less than the farmers because the villagers need kids around to do all the hard work. The problem is that immigrant city slickers in England and other parts of Europe are getting paid to be on welfare AND have kids. or so I heard. So, they culturally will still have kids like they're on the farm while the natives city slickers are already programmed to not want kids.

188 If you believe Mark Steyn, and I tend to do so, barring some truly massive change in demographic destiny then the world as we know is doomed, to a mathematical certitude, and what battles we fight now are will almost certainly be regarded later as trivial episodes in the much larger and longer view of Islam's demographic energy, and the West's demographic exhaustion.

This is where being of faith helps considerably. It gives you a horribly comforting thought; "Well, this won't last much longer."

189

190 Whatever the "truth" of the matter is...  I just can't buy into the demographics aspect of your argument.  It cleaves too closely to early 20th century pro-eugenics arguments.  It's only a breath away from what the eco-alarmists want.  The only difference is the "why."  You argue demographics for the sake of nationalism.  Greenies argue you it for the sake of Gaia.  Both positions are horrible.

If people in the developed world are too stupid and self-centered to have babies, then we will reap what they have sown.  If people in other countries, no matter how poor and miserable, love life enough to have children...  then they deserve to inherit the Earth.

I just can't buy the argument that we would have to struggle out entire populations to preserve whatever the "birthright" of the day is.  The struggle ought to be about ideas, and screw the idea of treating people like widgets that can be pushed from one column to the other.

But you already allude to the apprehensions you have about the argument, Ace.  So why not abandon them.  If conservative ideas and the preservation of the American way has come down to the use of human populations as a means to an end....  then we really have lost our way. 

191

They are low-class ghetto scum and get erections whenever RACEWAR is hinted at as topic.

 

And that's what makes discussion about culture so hard to have, the crazies come out and destroy the topic.

192 Bwa Ha Ha Europe is not going to make it 2 years let alone 50. Stick a fork in em, they're done and we are not far behind them.

193

American black culture since LBJ went to hell in a hand basket.

Also addressed by Sowell.

 

194 Muslim menace isn't as low-class to the N*gger menace "politics"?

195 I'm starting to think that the world will be a better place when the money runs out.  More honest anyway.  We've been living in a bubble for decades, and generations have been brought up to think that our comfort is just the natural state of human affairs. 

We've been eating the seed corn of our culture, and the price will have to be paid.

196 Warden
Not going to answer how Sowell makes his alignment?

197

Going on a trip to Europe in about two weeks. Can anyone tell me what the weather will be like then?

No, but they can tell me what the world will be like in 75 years? Arrogant.

Heh. Next week no... but in 2085 it will be sunny, with a slight chance of rain and 60% muslims heading into the weekend.

Because you see, no one can call me on it now, and you'll have forgotten I said it by then... assuming anyone's still alive.

198
Pop is right.

Who does Obama love and always speak so well of?

China. Obama probably loves Venezuela more but he can't say it publicly until he steals another term in 2012.

199

184  Ah, I suppose I shouldn't introduce them to any of the good old boys I know from the racetrack, who can sing Hank Jr. word for word, wear big belt buckles with their Wrangler jeans, and are not rosy cheeked by any stretch of the imagination?

*I also don't foresee said good old boys bowing down to sharia or thug life livin' anytime soon, but regrettably, like all rural Americans, their lifestyle (or culture if you will) is dying out.

200 Sell me on Arab domination of Europe after they run out of oil

201 maverick muse, Shall I set you and your buddies up with a special thread so you can get it all out of your system?

202

muslims cant run a hot dog stand, how could they run a western country.

silly me, run it into the ground of course.

203 A more convincing argument for deploying nukes in the middle east I have not read.

204 -->The only difference is the "why."  You argue demographics for the sake of nationalism.  Greenies argue you it for the sake of Gaia.  Both positions are horrible.

Incorrect.  The two positions are polar opposites.  The greenies are misanthropes who want all humanity to die (as homo sapien seems to be, in the guilt-ridden, fevered green mind, the only "evil" species to ever appear on Earth), or, if that isn't possible, for the advanced societies to die and leave nothing but primitives who can't have much effect on the world.  That is nothing but a desire for the suicide of mankind.

On the other side, there is certainly nothing wrong with a nation wanting to be able to maintain its population.  I can't see how anyone would have a problem with such.

-->If people in the developed world are too stupid and self-centered to have babies, then we will reap what they have sown.  If people in other countries, no matter how poor and miserable, love life enough to have children...  then they deserve to inherit the Earth.

Posted by: blip at June 02, 2010 05:07 PM (dIrLF)

Why?  They can't feed or shelter themselves.  They exist only because of the stupid generosity and beneficence of the West.  Without the West, the world population would still be around a few billion.  While massive population efforts represent a decent evolutionary strategy, that is only when one can have some control over their food and resources.  If one has kids just to become a burden to someone else ... that's pretty stupid.

205 "Watching a retard chase a pendulum" Entropy, that's great. I'm stealing it. For anyone who missed his point read this. The way it applies to this debate is that fertility is linked to prosperity. Basically muslims are breeding like rabbits in part because they're poor while rich europeans have better things to do than make babies. As the economic situation changes the muslim birthrate will decrease while the european rate will increase. Eventually they'll meet and the demographics will remain constant. The final makeup of the society depends on how exactly fertility changes with wealth. The one thing for certain is that it will happen after the 2050 prediction from linear extrapolation.

206

This seems to contradict my observation that most 25-year-old women with seven children have never been married to any of the childrens' fathers.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at June 02, 2010 04:51 PM (mR7mk)

Doesn't mean they haven't had their babies...

GET OFF ME DADDY! YOUR SMASHIN MY MARLBORROS! _{What an arkie says after sex.}

207 I'm starting to think that the world will be a better place when the money runs out.  More honest anyway.  We've been living in a bubble for decades, and generations have been brought up to think that our comfort is just the natural state of human affairs.

Exactly.  We've been rich enough to support the fiction that life and limb are intrinsically more valuable than property rights and freedom.  If we lose that excess, then the connection between property and life will be more apparent than it has been, and dishonest dealers will suffer the harsh penalties they deserve.

208

"it's possible that the egregious barbarity of expansionist Islam will ameliorate in the next several decades;"

I can't see that happening. Islam seems to find a way to fight between the various tribes if they're not fighting against the West. There will always be a battle between Sunni and Shiite for domination of the Muslim world. 

To me, Islam = perpetual conflict both internal and external.  

209 As damian started to say (I think), Ann Coulter had some statistics in her latest book about single mothers vs the causes of indigence. In it, she describes the effects of single motherhood as the problem of welfare parents, not race. The numbers line up when you take race out of the equation, and line it up with single motherhood (without concern to race).

That puts the problem solely on culture, not on race. Ann Coulter isn't the only one doing these studies honestly, as other commenters have pointed out. She's just the only one I have handy.

You can talk about superior races all you want, and the evidence doesn't add up. It's culture, and every person that has looked at the data knows this. Race has no place in the argument, at all. Never has, never will. Anyone can better (or worsen) themselves. The color of their skin has nothing to do with it.

210

Heh. Next week no... but in 2085 it will be sunny, with a slight chance of rain and 60% muslims heading into the weekend.

Only 60% chance of Muslims?  Let's see....I'll be 87 then.  So....light jacket then?

We are all the same in that we are looking for the same things out of life. The only difference is in how we think we'll get them.  Some folks call it culture.

211 Original southern white redneck culture inherited mostly from Scottish highlanders. Yes. And his evidence is pretty strong.

I read that book. As a matter of fact I have it on my bookshelf. It is one book by Sowell that I disagreed with him on a major point. 

The South is not the only place where Scottish immigrants settled. And even in the areas of the South that they largely settled (Eastern Mountains of Tennessee and Western NC) there are few blacks to be exposed to that highland culture.

What I found disappointing was that he made that statement and had little real evidence to back it up (as I recall).

The fact of the matter is that in the 50s when I grew up black culture in the South was NOTHING like it is now and was not "redneck" in any way that I could tell.

But I guess you have to define what you are going to call redneck. In my travels around the country I have met what I will call bigoted rednecks in every State of the Union I have lived in.

212 Not going to answer how Sowell makes his alignment?

Posted by: maverick muse at June 02, 2010 05:09 PM (H+LJc)

Basically he shows how the racial gap was closing in education and income prior to The Great Society.

Just read the book and make your own judgements.

213 BTW, I do agree that LBJ's great society and the Democrat Party is responsible for the collapse of the black family and its culture.

214 There should be some concern regarding projections of current trends.

To be oblivious would be foolish. To insist that projections are facts rather than projections would be foolish.

As per family size, a lot will depend on the economy. All things considered, the economy is going kaput. The Obama administration with Pelosi/Reid and their voters, aided by weasel Republican neoconservatives simply waiting for their turn to plunder the public aren't making things any "better" except for the untouchables.

Regardless of the economy, the ghetto trash who pop out babies in order to pocket federal tax funds are no longer the only stereotype tax fraud beneficiaries, given currently increasing numbers of white collar and legal pinstripe specialists in graft of federal tax funds, ranging from the Congress to local non-profits.

Given our national debt and spending, how can anyone imagine the economy actually improving, stabilizing?

Projections of current trends and records do matter so far as planning for any future goes.

215

Sorry, pointing to failed population explosion BS in no way demonstrates that a population is not LIMITED by the number women of childbearing age. Steyn was writing about an upper-limit per generation.

Sorry but you don't read English so good.

What you quoted had nothing to do with that. Try reading again.

Just how does a population spontaneously develop more WoCA for a successive number of generations without a major societal shift?

Try reading again? For one you don't need them. 1 woman can have 20-30 children.

One that may be unprecedented?

No it wouldn't.

216 Muslim menace isn't...

Last time I checked, Muslim implied a system of beliefs, which could be philosophically argued, agreed to, or rejected, on their merits and detriments, much like any other system of beliefs, e.g. communism.
Appropriate "The threat of the spread of communism"

Last time I checked by our philosophy, being of a particular race didn't yield any inherent merits or detriments.
Inappropriate "The threat of the spread of race X"

Idiots...

217 Optimist.

218

I can't see that happening. Islam seems to find a way to fight between the various tribes if they're not fighting against the West.

see: Syria under Hafez Al-Assad

219 Well, there's always the bosnian option.

220 it's possible that the egregious barbarity of expansionist Islam will ameliorate in the next several decades;

I wouldn't put money on that.  It has to do with the very nature of islam and, worse, the natures of the underlying cultures that islam is built on.  I'm sure everyone has seen this many times, already, but here is what Churchill had to say about islam over a hundred years ago (The River War, 1899):

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries.

Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science (the science against which it had vainly struggled) the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Some things just don't change much over time.  If you look at Ibn Khaldun from his 14th century Muqadimmah (though he spoke about arabs, not islam) you can really see how little certain things change.

221

213 

Try "The Jacksonian Tradition" by Walter Russell Mead.

Urban, immigrant America may have softened some of the rough edges of Jacksonian America, but the descendants of the great wave of European immigration sound more like Andrew Jackson from decade to decade. Rugged frontier individualism has proven to be contagious; each successive generation has been more Jacksonian than its predecessor. The social and economic solidarity rooted in European peasant communities has been overmastered by the individualism of the frontier. The descendants of European working-class Marxists now quote Adam Smith; Joe Six-pack thinks of the welfare state as an expensive burden, not part of the natural moral order. Intellectuals have made this transition as thoroughly as anyone else. The children and grandchildren of trade unionists and Trotskyites now talk about the importance of liberal society and free markets; in the intellectual pilgrimage of Irving Kristol, what is usually a multigenerational process has been compressed into a single, brilliant career.

http://tinyurl.com/pzgkp4

 

222 Try reading again? For one you don't need them. 1 woman can have 20-30 children. Posted by: Entropy Where is this Europe in which women are having 20 to 30 kids? O RLY? Again, same question: Do you see any chance of a major societal shift happening in the next 20 years in Europe to induce women to have 20 to 30 kids? Yes or no will suffice because you've managed to provide zero information so far.

223

BTW, Guns, Germs and Steel is also a good read.

Posted by: Warden

I've read that book.. You're right, a good read.

I'm doomed anyway being a Joo they will come for me first.  I figure I'll go out in a blaze of glory taking as many of these soulless pricks with me. 

I also believe these Islamist fanatics underestimate a certain gun owning population of this country and what lengths they will go to to protect freedom.

224

Where is this Europe in which women are having 20 to 30 kids? O RLY?

Garbonzo you fucking imbecile, take a biology class.

You're EPIC FAIL at reading comprehension is pissing me off.

225
Another thing to consider:  Global radical islam would be nowhere today without the support they draw from the fifth column in the west.

226

yep bosnia, we will lose areas of our country to muslims and we wont be allowed to enter those areas, but they will be allowed to come into our areas.

plus we will have to pay high taxes to keep them quiet.

and so it will go on, untill tits up time.

227

I also believe these Islamist fanatics underestimate a certain gun owning population of this country and what lengths they will go to to protect freedom.

I was just thanking my lucky stars for the 2d Amendment and thinking that even if the American goverment becomes weak vis-a-vis defense, well, we'd be one hell of a hard country to conquer.  But rotting from within?  It's hard to envision right now.

228

Why did we start in 1930?

The economy sucked, food was scarce, the frontiers were a dustbowl... people were dying of dust pneumonia, and starvation, and crime. Then we fought two of the largest wars ever, in which a lot of people were chucked into ovens...

And despite all that, population rates skyrocketed.

Nope.

229 1 woman can have 20-30 children.

If she starts when she's 12.  If she starts when she's 27 and finally gets booted off her parents' health insurance (or 35 and finally meets a guy her age who wants to get married instead of partying)...not without major medical intervention.

230 "Basically he [Sowell] shows how the racial gap was closing in education and income prior to The Great Society."

I'm aware of that from having grown up at the time, as well as readings. I questioned which decade y'all referenced in the above discussion equating black culture with "original" rednecks.

As per calling rednecks bigots, I wouldn't necessarily toss them that label unless granting equal opportunity criticism at elitist bigots and all sorts of self-righteous bigots who consider themselves so much better-than-thou, and every other sort of fake-journalist informant bigot, as it that describes all sorts.

Ignorance ain't bliss, no matter what else is said about it.

When people CHOOSE ignorance, look out.

231

If she starts when she's 12. 

Doesn't the Duggar family have about twenty kids now?

232

"yep bosnia, we will lose areas of our country to muslims and we wont be allowed to enter those areas, but they will be allowed to come into our areas."

You must have taken a wrong turn and ended up in Bizarro Bosnia, because when I was there the muslims were generally scared shitless to go into a Serb area, while the Serbs tended to have more of a "fuck 'em, let 'em try something" mindset when travelling in muslim areas.

233 Waterhouse

Exactly. The 1960s sexual political revolutions.

234 "Rugged frontier individualism has proven to be contagious; each successive generation has been more Jacksonian than its predecessor"

I would have thought so at one time. But I've been sorely disappointed by public progressive trends gone ape on socialism. I would hate to see "that was then, this is now" play out.

235 Where is this Europe in which women are having 20 to 30 kids? O RLY?
Garbonzo you fucking imbecile, take a biology class.
You're EPIC FAIL at reading comprehension is pissing me off.
Posted by: Entropy at June 02, 2010 05:27 PM (IsLT6)

I hereby propose Entropy's Lemma: You can not predict anything - because it could all change abruptly!!!!

Why every molecule in his body could suddenly decide it preferred to be in the upper left hand corner of the room!

Or the electrons in his ethernet cable could decide they all prefer to hang out right next to the router!

We can't even be sure that Entropy still exists as a conscious entity.

Why? Because of Entropy's Lemma! Since he could be an AI that managed to tap into his internet connection.

236 Garbonzo you fucking imbecile, take a biology class. You're EPIC FAIL at reading comprehension is pissing me off. Posted by: Entropy Ah, reason, wisdom, and facts to boot. Fantastic reply. You must be correct in your assertion then.

237 The way it applies to this debate is that fertility is linked to prosperity

Systems of belief should not be cast aside for insignificance. Certainly prosperity has a lot to do with things, mainly the availability of birth control, but, and this is where zilla does have half a point, attitude toward "recreational sex" has a lot to do with it too.

If you compare side by side societies one believes in recreational sex with birth control, the other believes in only conducting sexual intercourse in a procreative manner, guess which one is likely to have a growing vs declining population.

_{(Help us Obi-Wan Benidict you're are only hope)}

238 Doesn't the Duggar family have about twenty kids now?

19.  They got married when she was 17.  That's kinda my point...if you want to have 20 kids, you can't start after you've finished grad school and gotten married and bought a house. 

The Islamic 11-year-old girls sold into marriage with old dudes don't have to make those choices (they also don't get a choice).

239 Listen to enough people and you are going to hear a wide variety of opinions, some of them include:

- that having children is selfish
- the world can't sustain our population level
- we'll be dead before it all collapses, so who cares?
- western civilization isn't worth defending, due to its past sins.
- civilization is a sham, evidenced by how easily it crosses the line over to barbarity. (Many examples.)

We're not all like this, but there are those people who have a vision, or a Greater Meaning of Life that does not sync up with that of the believer in the importance of civilization. That peaceful society should never be taken for granted. That defense of liberal society may require illiberal, tough means. That civilization is worth defending in word or in deed.

Wished that more people felt the same way.

240 Do not dismiss the French quite so easily.  Those cheese eating surrender monkeys may just surprise you.

241 having 20 to 30 kids

My Great Great Grandmother actually beat the greater than 20 mark, she started I think at 14, ended over 50 and the last one killed her. Not the walk in the park some would assume.

242

 I questioned which decade y'all referenced in the above discussion equating black culture with "original" rednecks.

He's talking about cultural elements brought over from parts of Great Britain and introduced in the South in the late 1600s.

Basically, he argues that blacks weren't able to outgrow these tendencies after emancipation, in part because of programs like The Great Society.

As per calling rednecks bigots

That wasn't me.

243 Heather, just to pick nits wiki says she was 22.  But your point is well taken.

244 225  Don't worry Mpfs -- we'll hide your Hebrew butt if'n the rop'ers come for you.  You know how to fix collards by any chance? Squirrel chili?

245

"Consequently birthrates can change rather quickly, up or down, under the right cultural influences."

We have been closely studying the environmental stimuli surrounding your "Nadia Suleman."

246 The 'peace activists' also used a stun grenade on Israeli boarding party.

247 Try reading again? For one you don't need them. 1 woman can have 20-30 children.

Posted by: Entropy
Thank GOD for the Duggers....oh, wait, they only had 18 AND they pay for them all themselves.

248

Thank GOD for the Duggers....oh, wait, they only had 18 AND they pay for them all themselves.

Point being, for those who are confused by these strange things called words, no, number of women of child bearing age is not necessarily, or often, or even nearly ever, a limiting factor on demographics.

249 Look, Steyn's argument only becomes important when one or both populations are reproducing at their limits. That's when the number of women having children inexorably impacts the next generation. When muslim women are having 20x the babies of european women then the europeans are screwed. Until that time the most important factor in population isn't the number of children women can have it's the number of children they do have. The first is limited by population and subject to Steyn's analysis, the second is dependant on culture and subject to significant and rapid feedback. it's that feedback that makes population trends pretty much unpredictable. As an aside, I know predator-prey populations are usually chaotic, anybody know if similar work has been done about cooperating populations?

250

Ah, reason, wisdom, and facts to boot. Fantastic reply. You must be correct in your assertion then.

Garbonzo, stop dicking around the point.

I have to spell it out for you? All of it? So be it. I'll make it painfully clear.

Can a woman have 20+ children?

So answer your own question:

Is "number of women at child bearing age" the limiting factor to european's reproduction?

251

Steyn's argument only becomes important when one or both populations are reproducing at their limits.

Neither population is doing that, and (probably) neither will.

At least not at the limits of biology. There are other limits. There are many factors.

We cannot accurately predict the demographics of wild rabbit populations beyond a couple of years. There are too many factors. We sure as hell can't predict humans out to 50 years.

It's bad science. It's crap math. It's hacky. It's a farce. It's wrong. You can't know that. It's a bald guess. We know that right now muslims are out-reproducing europeans in europe. The muslim population is growing. That is, quite probably, troublesome for the europeans. Act on that however you please.

What the demographics will be in 50 years, you will have to wait and see. There's too many factors you can't predict. You may not, with any credibility outside the innumerate and maybe East Anglia University, take a 10 year trend on a graph and extend the line and claim you can predict dynamic systems 50 years into the future.

I don't care how intuitive it seems to you, it's wrong.

I really really wish I could find an online copy of Michael Chrichton's "Environmental Management in the 21st Century" speech.

This sort of bad thinking that fails to understand the nature of dynamic systems, and treat them as if they were simple, linear, static ones, will have other repurcussions, where you'll also be wrong if you insist on being certain of things you can't possibly know.

It's all Cassandrism (or maybe Pollyannism) and nothing else. Demographics are not destiny because there's no such thing as destiny.

If your crystal ball is so great, go hit up the stock market.

252 And somewhere else, there's a Western mule.  How many grey-haired aging Westerners to defeat the entire Islamic world?  I'm guessing, one, just one... if he happens to be a sufficiently upset molecular biologist or virologist.  And oh, the West has a lot of scientists.
But the White Plague is racist!!!

253 251

Thank GOD for the Duggers....oh, wait, they only had 18 AND they pay for them all themselves.

Point being, for those who are confused by these strange things called words, no, number of women of child bearing age is not necessarily, or often, or even nearly ever, a limiting factor on demographics.

Posted by: Entropy at June 02, 2010 06:08 PM (eL+YD)

Point ACTUALLY needing to consider that in a culture that has hammered the need to reduce the number of children one has, where the agrarrian society has given way to the culture of fewer kids, buy mass produced crap, own far more material stuff so you cannot afford more children, where families like the Duggers are considered nearly freakish because they are large in number.....well.....you will not suddenly amass women who will give all of what they believe and want to spread their legs and receive the sperm and mass produce 15 kids to help save the west.

254

The Constitution is under attack, but maybe it'll save our asses after all.  Add to that the free flow of instant information and the reletive educational level of the populace.  It would be damned hard in this day and age to get our society to embrace a new dark age.  Seems like.  And I think Europe would eventually fight.  We've already seen the beginning of that with the anti-burka movement. 

It's more likely we will convert Islam than the reverse.  They'll finally have their Enlightenment.  Maybe.

Heh.  For some reason that reminds me of a scientist who was commenting on the possibility of a plague spawned by bacteria brought to Earth from other planets via meteors and/or comets.  He said that he pitied the poor bacteria from an alien world blundering into this bacteriological jungle.  He said it's much more likely alien bacteria wouldn't stand a chance here.

255

It's more likely we will convert Islam than the reverse.  They'll finally have their Enlightenment.  Maybe.

 

So let's us continue to sit around and let nature take its course. I'll have a cheeseburger, please, with mayo.

256

OK, sorry I snapped.

That's when the number of women having children inexorably impacts the next generation. When muslim women are having 20x the babies of european women then the europeans are screwed.

Why would they? If both are reproducing at their biological limits, middle-eastern and african woman do not reproduce any more often than white ones.

Since there are currently more europeans then muslims in europe overall, if that were to happen, europeans would win.

Either way, massive population explosion under this hypothetical. Way too many europeans.

If that's all Steyn's analysis treats, then it's wrong on it's face.

the second is dependant on culture and subject to significant and rapid feedback. it's that feedback that makes population trends pretty much unpredictable.

Exactly.

257 Next time, and there will be a next time.........ditch the paintball guns.  Shotguns w/rock salt.  It's humane.  AND it's effective.

But that 'next time' presupposes you'll find willing idiots.  How many of those noisy 'peace activists' willing idiots are WILLING TO DIE for anything?

258 Yep, cuz we all know that people are gonna stop fuckin' after the collapse. They'll still be able to get those clinical abortions and free birth control pills in a scene of utter chaos and destruction.

259

I also believe these Islamist fanatics underestimate a certain gun owning population of this country and what lengths they will go to to protect freedom.

I think that's true. Saddam constantly underestimated the U.S. Others have as well.

How can you blame them, though? Imagine if you only knew about the U.S. from its television shows and movies. You can hardly blame someone for thinking we're a bunch of knock-kneed pussies after watching that touchy feely bullshit.

260 Wow.  A heartfelt, despondent look at what seems to be the future of the entire enlightened west.  Man, that was *bleak*.

But it doesn't have to be that way.  And the fix is surprisingly simple--though it will take roughly 20 years to implement, we almost certainly have that much time.

The fix is, we need to get rid of anti-American whiners in the MSM, government, Hollywood and the rest.  They're the ones slowly poisoning America's youth, by relentlessly hammering the notion that the U.S., capitalism and, ironically, freedom, are the sources of all eeevil in the world.

Frankly, the stupid bastards need to be vaporized and replaced with folks who think this is about the finest country one could imagine.  And that it can and will solve all problems, if only the pencil-neck bureaucrats and pols will stay the hell out of our way.

Raise one generation under this kind of mindset, and the problem will pretty much be solved. 

Imagine how folks in a post-socialist America would handle someone like, say, Michael Moore spouting off about how great Cuba was:  Throw his fat ass on a freighter to Cuba and cancel his passport.  Don't ever let the son of a bitch back in the U.S.  Let him rot in Cuba.  Can you imagine the salutary effect on the *next* dumbass who was thinking about saying what an eeevil place the U.S. was?

Don't just *invite* Dems/socialists to leave...show 'em the door with a boot to the ass.  And a strong hint not to return unless it was full of apologies and "Omigod is there any way you can forgive me?!"

261 I'm ergie, and I got nuthin'

262 Is "number of women at child bearing age" the limiting factor to european's reproduction?

Answer no, not even close.
Like I said earlier, it is the choice that sex without ever having whiny brats to worry about has become the status quo in Europe. The nanny state has given way to a generation that does not find happiness in a healthy strong family, rather they find it in accumulation of things, partying with their friends, travel and the like. (What traditionally has substituted for kids in empty nests) They find no accomplishment in raising the next generation, they find accomplishment in supporting their socialist causes that allow even more leisure time for the above with less work, and actually feel having children is counter to the green religion. (A religion that preaches nocreation? Their proselytism must be spectacular)

The statist governments that have fed them entitlement since birth are now powerless to control the monster of their own making. Kids take personal sacrifice, and you've taught them that they should never have to do that.

So now with all of civilization in a conflict between the moral orders of the west and near east, deeply intertwined in religious beliefs, the left, with moral relativism allies with what should be in rational thought a moral enemy in order to advance a statist agenda, all while the majority population granting them power eats their fill and declines into an elderly minority, with no progeny to carry their useless muddling of western philosophy forward. The vacuum will leave but one group with decisive control. All of which will leave them, in the end, with neither the freedom we promise, nor the security and equality they promise. Yet we are the fear that keeps them awake.

263 Relax Entropy, I agree with you on this. I was trying to point out that the only circumstance that this demographic argument holds is pretty absurd. Linear extrapolation only works when what you're extrapolating is linear (duh). Population and fertility are neither linear or continuous for any significant timescale. It may be comforting to "know" that western europe is doomed and that [atheism|abortion|socialism|cowardice|etc] is to blame, but it just ain't so.

264 It's more likely we will convert Islam than the reverse.
That explains all of the anti-terrorism Muslim marches that I've seen held in the West. One in Toronto got out a massive crowd of twelve.

265 (6UdAc)

Put a bullet in that festering shithole you call a skull, you anti-Semitic fuckknuckle.

266 Why?  They can't feed or shelter themselves.  They exist only because of the stupid generosity and beneficence of the West.  Without the West, the world population would still be around a few billion.  While massive population efforts represent a decent evolutionary strategy, that is only when one can have some control over their food and resources.  If one has kids just to become a burden to someone else ... that's pretty stupid.

This is ignorant.  I don't give a damn about a stupid "evolutionary strategy" that treats people like bacteria, where some cell lines can be fed and others starved in order to fit some worldly agenda.  Like I said, there is little difference between you and the Greenies.  The Greenies see people as a dangerous species to be limited in number.  You see particular strains of humanity as dangerous, and that means some kind of philosopher king has to control the numbers from on high.

People, for the most part, have kids because they like having sex.  Sex is for procreation.  And, you know what, even the most miserable person in the world can be made happy by a child.  I come from a poor background, and all the good Irish Catholics had kids.  And it didn't matter how poor you were.  You had your kids.  You loved them.  And you fought for them.  There are few greater things in this world than that.

Believe it or not, you can raise a great family on very little money.  You don't need the largesse of people richer than you to make a family work.  It might mean you go without things.  But people with children tend to feel motivated.  You don't have time for depression.  You don't have time for "me time."  You just take care of your kids.  That's almost universally true.

In general, the more children in a person's family the better they are, regardless of their politics or their religion.  Children are among God's greatest gifts to us.... 

But if you see the world through the eyes of a social engineer.... kids seem like a burden and a liability.

267 6UdAc

Pedal that anti-Semite propaganda somewhere else.  And then go fuck yourself.

268 157 Rightzilla, banned.

Posted by: ace at June 02, 2010 04:53 PM (66DVY)

WOW! I feel honored. I missed my ban completely. Blew right past it.....never had any warnings and was certainly in a culture war on the thread but not a racial war. Thanks for the repreive, Ace! It must've been a misread? IF not, feel free to let me know of my miss-step.

Reserected Rightzilla!

269

I like Steyn. I think he's a brilliant guy. I reject Steyn's analysis on this because it is a crap anaylsis. It is crap. The methodology is piss poor and wrongheaded.

http://tinyurl.com/2g5dccs

For the money shot, 38 minutes and on (although the whole thing is good).

270 I'm ergie, and I got nuthin'

271 It's not so much that Israel can't do any wrong.  For example, when maintaining a blockade, torpedos work far better than commandos.

272 (6UdAc)

Yeah, making sure ships running a blockade aren't carrying rockets that your jihadi fucktard fellow travellers will fire into Israel, or explosives for your misogynist "Palestinian" heroes to blow up a Tel Aviv bus stop with is exactly like sending people to the gas chambers because they're Untermenschen, isn't it?

Have fun masturbating in front of your Hitler shrine and cheering as the Jews "get what's coming to them", pusbag.

273 In general, the more children in a person's family the better they are, regardless of their politics or their religion.  Children are among God's greatest gifts to us.... 

Posted by: blip at June 02, 2010 07:12 PM (dIrLF)

Do you base this on anything other than personal observation?  Cuz if not, I can give you plenty of counter examples.  I've had plenty of exposure over the years to "families" of degenerate welfare scum.  Rat-like rates of reproduction did little, if anything, to improve them that I could see.  And I've met many people with no kids who seem quite respectable and moral.

If you can afford kids and want them, then by all means have them.  But let's not confer some kind of special moral good on breeding.  There is no "right" number of people on earth, so long as the number is below what can be supported, and that also means that "less" is no worse than "more."  People who make babies are not doing any particular social good, any more than those who abstain from it.

Personally, I don't see very many people in this country who are interested in doing the hard things it takes to secure the future.  The kids of the next generations will have a hell of a mess to deal with.  Debt up to their eyeballs, muslim fanatics running around loose and breeding like cockroaches, and all manner of other issues that take harsh, brutal measures to fix.  Measures that no one has the balls and iron will to carry out.  I think it is reasonable to assert that bringing a child into this mess is an act of cruelty.  If we refuse to fix things, it is better to simply go out of existence.

 

274

Posted by: Israel: ...at June 02, 2010 07:38 PM (6UdAc)

You're a rambling idiot.  You're standing up for the worst and most despicable trash of humanity - the dirty, terror-loving Palis.  The fact that they have not been rounded up and eliminated utterly, which is what they deserve, is a testament to the mercy and longsuffering of the Israelis.  The muslims in general, and the Palis in particular, are the enemy of all that is good and decent in this world.  They are slime.  Anyone who acts against them is a friend of civilization.

275

the jew-nazi

I don't think even Orwell anticipated this level of complete ignorance.  Well done, erg, you unprecedented dumbfuck.

276 I'm ergie, and I got nuthin'

277 and erg's got nuthin'

278 I'm ergie, and I got nuthin'

279 Say erg, have you looked at a poll lately?

280 The Jews took ergie's lunch money in grade school.

281 Israel, shit on the asshole of humanity

FTFY

282

Philadelphia Flyers: shit on the asshole of humanity

FIFY

I'm going to mail that ref an envelope full of baking soda.

283 The Jews took ergie's lunch money in grade school.

Posted by: situation normal at June 02, 2010 08:53 PM (4WbTI)

More like he had the hots in high school for some hot Jewish girl with awesome cans, and his nonexistant social skills and poor personal hygiene got him as shot down as a "humanitarian" running weapons to Gaza.

284 It's got the requisite generalizations

That's pretty hilarious coming from the fuckhead who screams "racism" in every post about Arizona's immigration law.

It's even more hilarious from a shrieking anti-Semitic puswagon who's so pig-ignorant about history and so vested in perpetuating his fabricated factless narrative of Palestinian victimhood and Israel as the root of all evil that he dribbles gibberish about inspecting ships (in accordance with every precept of international law, mind you) being like a concentration camp.

Volunteer for a suicide bombing, pissant.

285 "Israel's strategy is backfiring"

Will the fact that Joe Biden is showing more spine than you possibly cause you to re-evaluate your ass up, head down response to anything that remotely smacks of bad PR?

It's a mean fucking world out there.  Either man up, or you an AP need to make an honest woman out of each other and tie the knot.

286 -->You see particular strains of humanity as dangerous, and that means some kind of philosopher king has to control the numbers from on high.

Certain groups of people certainly are dangerous, but that has nothing to do with my comment.  I don't know what you think you were reading.  Go find anything I said that was even about anyone "controlling" anyone.  I talked about the genersoity of the West supporting the existence of billions of people who can't do it, themselves.  That's a fact.

-->People, for the most part, have kids because they like having sex.  Sex is for procreation.  And, you know what, even the most miserable person in the world can be made happy by a child.  I come from a poor background, and all the good Irish Catholics had kids.  And it didn't matter how poor you were.  You had your kids.  You loved them.  And you fought for them.  There are few greater things in this world than that.

When I said "billions of people", it was obvious I was talking about the third world.  But, those in the US who have families they can't afford are in the same situation.  I would bet that your family paid its own way or got by on private, local charity.

-->You just take care of your kids.  That's almost universally true.

Not even close to "almost".  Many mothers don't seem to care too much about taking care of their kids.  Muslim mothers who are so proud of their little suicide bombers, and fathers who kill their daughters for looking the wrong way at some random boy -- their own kids! -- represent a huge population.  Muslims keep telling us how large this population is.  Evidently, you don't understand how different other cultures can be from ours.  The story for those who have families they can't feed is something else, but the fact that their future is never in their own hands, because they live off of others, is all that matters.

-->In general, the more children in a person's family the better they are, regardless of their politics or their religion.  Children are among God's greatest gifts to us.... 

-->But if you see the world through the eyes of a social engineer.... kids seem like a burden and a liability.

Posted by: blip at June 02, 2010 07:12 PM (dIrLF)

Go find where I have spoken about social engineering.  Paste it.

You can't, because I wasn't talking about anything of the sort.  To say that I am responsible for feeding someone else - someone I don't choose to help - is to mistakenly place your feelings over my liberties.  You deal with your feelings on your own and leave other people's freedoms intact.

287

44 And to think Patrick Buchanan was called a racist and ecerything else under the sun for Death of teh West! Fellating Yasser Arafat. And saying racist stuff

 

288 Reactionary....  what a stupid name, by the way...  you give a bad name to those who are disparagingly referred to as "reactionaries" by the left.  With all your references to "rats" and "cockroaches," I think you are probably just a phony trying to make conservatives look like Nazis.  And believe me, I am not an "insider" here by any means. 

The gift of life is a gift from God.  And God's gifts tend to lead towards virtue.  But, of course, it is always possible for people to screw it up if they choose to. 

People in relationships who actively choose not to have kids, God bless em, can seem as moral as you want them to.  And it's easy to seem "virtuous" when you are 40 year old man-boy with no actual responsibilities but your own pathetic pleasures.  It's easy for a couple DINKs to balance their budget and hit the gym or do some yoga and align their chakras or something.  On the other hand, it is actually work to be a parent.  And work, real work, is good for the soul.  In addition, breeding tends to lead to an irrational attachment to your offspring, which, in itself, nudges the individual in the direction of what most Christians would recognize as Christian morality.  A parent would have the decency to pity, correct, and help the welfare parent to actually do something to improve themselves for the sake of their children.  A sterile man-boy would just get bitter and feel spite towards the children of corrupt parents (for example, calling them "cockroaches" or "rats"). 

You sound like a communist pretending to be an objectivist.  And in my opinion, one is just about as good as the other.  Because both philosophies are based on a false first principle: that people somehow magically create themselves and can thus evolve as individuals to some kind of banal greatness (which, in the end, is just an arbitrary assertion of the will).

289

50 years, a lot can happen in 50 years the main thing to see here is we don't have 50 years.

The current way Israel is being demonized for attempting to protect their nation and children shows what is in store. The more Israel feels pushed against the wall the more sharp and clear the memories of the holocaust will shine through.

Masada, along with the Samson option will change the course of islam, europe and America.

I cannot see a triumpant and emboldened islam holding back for a slow peaceful take over in 50 years. the RoP will rush things and the victims will strike back in a reflex that will fry the middle east.

lets all hope mecca gets fried along with tel aviv.