1
Iskandar!

2 Ford and GM all have recalls ... why are they going after Toyota so hard?  Oh yeah.. they arent union.

3
It's called grandstanding. The Democrats always say they 'looking out for you.'

Well, this is how they look out for us. The Democrats put on these dog & pony shows, get their mugs on TV, and then laugh and pat each other on the back for speaking up for the little guy.

4
Does anyone here really believe Toyota, even with all these problems, still makes a better car than, well, everyone else?

I don't own a Toyota but I know enough about Toyotas to say they and Honda make the best automobiles.

5 Having owned a Prius and would still own it if I hadn't totaled it in a stupid accident I'm a bit biased. I replaced mine with a used saturn SL (econo box model) Took my mom's Prius to be serviced last week and daamn it was hard to go back to my econo box, after experience smooth power again. I wont own a GM or Dodge now. Oddly even though I bought my pickup (Ford) used when it needed a new alternator the gal at the shop said having a Ford was an advantage because Barry's crew had restricted Dodge and GM on making parts.

6

I have owned 3 toyota trucks and have every intention of buying another one!!(my wife's family all drive either corollas or siennas, and love them!)            They make very good cars and trucks.And if people want to see how pissed the Japs are, go to: http://tinyurl.com/ylb4rxl

yes, ladies and gents, the Japs are very very pissed.

7 And if people want to see how pissed the Japs are, go to: http://tinyurl.com/ylb4rxl

yes, ladies and gents, the Japs are very very pissed.

Posted by: johnc_recent_EX-democrat at February 24, 2010 09:50 AM (ACkhT)

Page not found The requested page could not be found.

jesus they nuked the whole page?

8

 because it seems more politically-motivated than grounded in fact.

{{{{{{gasp}}}}}}  NO!  Ya think??????

9 John I pull a big steel trailer and needed a 1 ton or Toyota would have been on my list for pickups.

10

There is NOTHING worse for getting at the truth than a Congressional Investigation run by freaking Democraps.

They are using reports and studies done by "trial lawyers" for the people who claim runaways for Christ Sakes!

I wanted to slap that stupid woman who "feared for her life". A scrunt, why didn't you turn the damn engine off?

When you see Waxman tied up in anything you know right off the bat that it is nothing more than a push for more commuism and fascim at all costs.

It wouldf have tickled me if the Toyota CEO told them to fk off that he wasn't coming.

11 I've owned Toyotas since the 80s.  Why?  Because none of them have ever been less than excellent in terms of quality and reliability.  I'm thinking that has something to do with not being put together by UAW humps, the same assholes that the Commiecrats grilling Toyoda are doing the bidding of.  I once owned a Mustang that developed a notch on its overhead cam that caused this annoying knocking sound; all after the warranty expired, of course.  Fuck ever buying one of Ford's products again; bad experiences are very difficult to overcome, more so than sham hearings by Congress.

12 I find it laughable that anyone ever assumes anything done by any member of Congress is for any purpose other than their own political gain.  Show trials like this are a great example, but even things I like or favor, I assume someone is getting their axles greased for doing it. 

13 was told by a mechanic that toyota here tof fore made all their parts.  This was apparently the first time they outsourced a part, ever.  He also told me that he thinks it has nothing to do with the physical part but it has to do with the electrical system and the software in the cars.  He believes this because the physical part seems ok but then the problem continues.  He said if they figured out quickly what was wrong he would know it wasn't an electrical software problem but if they changed out all the pedals and it was still there, that is how he would know.

14

Posted by: Unclefacts, Summoner of Meteors, and Buckets of Scorn for the Left at February 24, 2010 09:54 AM (erIg9)

I just tried that tinyurl I posted, it worked.  Was that the page that is not opening for you?

15 I think people see through the political motivations on the hearing but some will still be scared off toyotas. Expect Honda, Volkswagon, and Ford to gain some customer share but I doubt if GM does because people feel like the government is being ham fisted about things and the Government Motors label is still in peoples minds.

16

I just tried that tinyurl I posted, it worked.  Was that the page that is not opening for you?

Posted by: johnc_recent_EX-democrat at February 24, 2010 10:00 AM (ACkhT)

I get "Page Not Found" when I click it.

17 Now that we have Gubmint Motors, the conflict of interest implications are bizarre.  It reeks of impropriety.

18 The tiny url goes to zero hedge but it cant find the story.

19

Not sure why its not working, its a zerohedge link. I just created another tinyurl, let me know if it doesn't work

http://tinyurl.com/ylb4rxl

20 http: // zerohedge dot com //article/toyota---japanese-perspective

21

oops, sorry for the double post

http: // zerohedge dot com /article/toyota---japanese-perspective

22

Since our government now owns GM it only stands to reason that they'll do whatever they can to damage their rivals in the car industry.  Fewer Toyota's sold means more of a possible market share for GM - which means more money going back to the federal government, which means more kickbacks for campaign supporters, which means more of these greasy low life's have a much better chance of getting re-elected.

Welcome to Post-Obama America I guess.  Corruption that was out of control before has reached new heights of sleeziness.  I'm guessing that's probably not the "change" most of the morons who voted for his highness were "hoping" for.

 

 

23 Wow, you guys are really missing the point here. These are not minor recalls at all but very serious safety flaws that Toyota have been keeping hushed up for months.
Had these problems come from Ford or GM (Government Motors) I'm positive that there would be calls for blood by both Congressional grandstanders and the press well before now. In fact I sure there would be serious calls to jail company execs now and without trial.

As for Toyota and Honda making the best cars I'll tell you a little story: A number of years ago I worked for Chevrolet as a maintenance rep. After many months of having to deal with often irate customers bringing new cars in for what were almost always very minor issues, easily and quickly fixed and nearly always for free, I left that position and went to work for the Honda dealership just across the street. I expected to have far fewer of those nagging problems that I had to fix for the owners at Chevy. I was wrong.
Not only did I see the exact same constant flow of minor problems (trim, lights not working, etc.) but I also experienced for the first time "silent recalls" where manufacturing problems were repaired often without the owner knowing it was done, something I never saw while I was with my previous employer.
But the biggest difference between working with American vs. Japanese car dealers was the attitude of the customers; the folks buying the Chevys tolerated not even the smallest defect in their new cars (nor should they have) but the Honda owners were convinced their problems were completely unique to their cars, you  know, just one of those "things" that never happen, "well I must have gotten that one-in-a-million Honda with a flaw I must just be the unluckiest guy on the planet", regardless of how often I took in cars with the very same issues.
I came away with an insight; those imports are really not better than their American rivals at all (comparing apples to apples only), its just that their owners believe, in nearly the religious sense, that they are. The psychology of the import "true believer" being what it is, the American car really does have to be twice as good to be though of half as well by them.

24 Hey there lawyer types (Gabe???)

Isn't this a massive conflict of interest?

Technically, the US Government is the defacto owner of GM and Chrysler.

GM and Chrysler are Toyotas main competitors in the US.

Isn't the (gasp!) a massive, MASSIVE conflict of interest?

Is it even legal?

And will someone remind the world that Toyota VOLUNTARILY recalled their vehicles, and opposed to the MILLIONS of vehicles manufactured by the former Big 3 that were ORDERED by the NTSB to be recalled?

/Part of me wants Mr. Toyoda to close all the factories here and take his toys home. However, since the factories are non union and in red states, that would only help the Democrats.
Ya think that's their goal, to hurt non union manufacturing and people who voted against Obama?

25 I drive a Dodge Dakota that had a recall because there was a chance the front wheels would fall off.  After that happens I intend to buy a Toyota.

26

It's a leetle joke when we post a link that doesn't work, see above. We accept that, because our lives don't depend on it. Toyota's link goes to the throttle module but it can't find "Back Off." Check user manual for decision tree.

There used to be a joke about what cars would be like if Microsoft built them. 

See how easy it is to fuck up in Virtual World?  Whose idea was "drive-by wire," anyway?  They're going to blame this on cigarettes. I just know it.

 

 

27

Posted by: shibumi at February 24, 2010 10:25 AM (OKZrE)

you will find at the link I posted from zero hedge, many many japanese papers are making the same accusation against us.

They are saying since the govt now owns GM, it is in their interest to promote them, so they are going after Toyota much harder they would their own financially back govt-owned company, since they want to promote govt backed GM now.

I had no clue the japs were this pissed.

28 oh btw, the star witness, Rhonda what'shername? Worst driver in the world.

When your car "went crazy and took off by itself", why didn't you put the car in neutral? All automatics are capable of being put in neutral regardless of what the car is doing. Why didn't you just stand on the brakes? All properly working brakes are capable of stopping an automobile even at full throttle. Why didn't you simply turn the key off? You shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel of a car. People like you should ride the fucking bus.

I remember this same shit in the eighties when asshole incompetents like this went after Audi for the same fucking thing.

29

They are saying since the govt now owns GM, it is in their interest to promote them, so they are going after Toyota much harder they would their own financially back govt-owned company, since they want to promote govt backed GM now.

I had no clue the japs were this pissed.

Yeah, they have that whole concept of "honor." Not so important here, especially to Democrats.

The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that the purpose of these show trials is to help the unions and Gubbermint Motors, and hurt non-union workers in red states.

Japanese are worthy adversaries. They are smart. They are are not people we should be trying to screw over IMHO.

30

Heard on the radio that Honda and Ford had picked up market share at the expense of Toyota. GM, not so much.

The first car I owned was a Toyota. Great car, zero problems. I don't own one right now but I would definitely buy one again.

31

My choices are union crippled, bumble fuck GM vs non-union usually competent Toyota?

Give me a second

32 re #29 Didn't they decide the Audi issue was ergonomics (gas pedal too close to brake) I doubt anyone gets taught these over ride tips. Not even as tension devices in tv dramas etc. So not surprising that there are a handful of driver failed to compensate for system failure deaths.

33 mrs fluffy loves her Toyota. I'm going to drop by the local dealer to kick some tires tell them I am there as a result of this crap. Not buying for a couple years, they might have something I like.

34  Well, let's see.  A 2003 Toyota Corolla S with a water pump that has always leaked that Toyota can't seem to fix, an accelerator that's decided to start sticking when the car was only five years old and interior plastic dash and door trim that's peeling and cracking even after having been protected from sun exposure.  I've owned Corollas since '77 and frankly, Toyota's quality isn't nearly what it used to be.

That said, you couldn't pay me enough to own a GM.

However, and as I said in a previous headline thread on this topic, Toyota has gone ahead and made themselves a juicy target, no matter how wrong it is for our elected fascists to go after them.  Pot, kettle, etc.

35

"yes, ladies and gents, the Japs are very very pissed."

To be fair, they were also pissed when we finally got them to open their markets to domestic automakers back in the day.  Before then our companies weren't even allowed to try and sell their vehicles there.  So "the Japs being pissed" isn't exactly a good measure of whether something's fair or not, because they're chauvinistic protectionist bastards, even now.

" I drive a Dodge Dakota that had a recall because there was a chance the front wheels would fall off.  After that happens I intend to buy a Toyota."

Then, if it's a truck, you'll have to deal with the frame snapping in half thanks to the pisspoor rustproofing that they were recalled for two to three years back.

Toyota's gone through several recalls this decade, all relatively unpublicized, so no, Virginia, they aren't perfect.  I have to admit I'm getting a little schadenfreude here mostly because I remember very clearly when GM was the whipping boy (undeservedly so in many cases...remember the Sixty Minutes gas tank scam/story?  Or Nader's Little Book of Lies, Unsafe at Any Speed? My family's owned several Corvairs, and his assertions were ridiculous.)

OTOH, yes, the Government definitely has a conflict of interest, which is why Government definitely SHOULD NEVER own a business like GM.  I'm hopeful that GM'll be cut loose in the next administration, and that the damage done won't be too severe.

 

 

36 We all saw this coming. The foot soldiers in the local news were rambling on and on, about a potential issue. The reason I say potential is in most circumstances the life threatening issues couldn't be recreated. Silicone brest implants anyone? Childhood vaccinations? This was sloppy unaccountable local news, nation wide, grabbing select facts and running with a narrative. It's particularly sad that we have a party in power grabbing the reigns of beast and using national resources to take swipes at organizations making critical judgments even if they were unvoiced.

37 33 re #29 Didn't they decide the Audi issue was ergonomics (gas pedal too close to brake)

I doubt anyone gets taught these over ride tips. Not even as tension devices in tv dramas etc. So not surprising that there are a handful of driver failed to compensate for system failure deaths.

Posted by: paleRider at February 24, 2010 10:51 AM (XB2s0)

they found out that american drivers who were used to having gas pedals the size of a clown shoe, a brake pedal as big as a barn door, separated by about ten feet were ill-equipped to deal with a car that was engineered, wait for it, for drivers who actually DROVE their cars. I.E. people who know what heel/toe braking is. I had an early 5000 with a 5 speed in it. Was one of the best set up cars from an driver's ergs perspective of the day. Used to autocross the crap out of that car, not once ever were the pedal placements a problem, in fact they were a bonus.

as for people being taught these override tips? if someone's first basic instinct in a car crisis is to blindly panic and hang on for dear life, that person probably shouldn't be allowed in a car.

38 Isn't this a massive conflict of interest?

*waves hand*  This is not the conflict of interest you are looking for. 

Of course it is and of course it doesn't matter.  The hearings will continue apace and pointing out the problem is just dirty pool dontcha know?

I'm deeply concerned by the reporting that the NHTSA supposedly said it doesn't employ electrical engineers or software engineers.  (don't have the link to hand I think I saw it at insty) That cannot possibly be right.  I know jack shit about engineering but I do know that cars have electrical systems and are now basically rolling computers.  Wouldn't you have to have an electrical/software engineer review that stuff? 

39

well, since I know toyotas are built here and hire american workers, I feel no guilt buying toyotas, have 3 tundras in the past -- all excellent , the missues has a camry, my wife's family all have corollas or siennas

if I wanted to buy an american car, it would be Ford, who took no govt money. No to gm or chrysler.

wonder if the socialist/democrats know just how many people are employed directly/indirectly by toyota in this country. The company last year already has stated they plan to build more plants in China in the future, are these lunatic democrats really going to beat on the company so much that they will just transfer those jobs to other countries?

(and yes, I know the answer to that.)

40 The psychology of the import "true believer" being what it is, the American car really does have to be twice as good to be though of half as well by them.

Posted by: Rule303 at February 24, 2010 10:23 AM (XeNiZ)

Fuck off troll; I go by my actual experience.  I'm not one of your NPR snots that looks down his fucking nose on anything made in the US.  I would gladly buy US if I hadn't been burned by them before.  Maybe they've improved on quality but guess what:  They sold me junk previously and until I feel the same way about Toyota, which you posting something contrary has no fucking impact, I'm not buying from them.

41 @40 Think about it, the goal isn't to create jobs, stabilize the economy or save lives, it is to increase positive public perception of the party. If Toyota criticizes democrats and there are already mechanisms on the march against Toyota all the party has to do is reinforce the front line.

42

#42,

oh yes, toyota has already publically critized the Marxist/democrat party. People also don't realise that toyota is negotiating with China in the past year to grow much more into their markets.

Chinese already buy more cars than Americans.

 

43 I figured, because the cost of a car is not small potatoes, I would ask my mechanic (who I respect) and several other mechanics, what car I should purchase.  They all recommended Toyota for safety and reliability.  In '98 I purchased the car I still have.
This government has so broken with the American people, even car safety is suspect.  I do not see any way forward for obama and gang except if they achieve what they have so far only attempted.....to rule, not to govern.

44 Wait, the majority shareholders of GM and Chrysler are going after the competition of GM and Chrysler?

You'd think they'd be fair, and open and honest and forthright and not at all crooked; I mean they're politicians after all, sorely they're trustworthy and honest...

Ok... I think I broke my face trying to keep it straight for that.

I'm guessing if GM has issues that Toyota executives get to hold the inquisition... I mean hearings?  It would only be fair, right?

45

I will continue to drive my perfectly-working, 9-year-old Rav4 until it finally bites the dust. It's got at least another 100,000 miles to go before it meets the given lifetime of a Toyota.

Other car companies, not so reliable in the high-milage department.

46

Show trials. SEC investigations. Grand juries. I think they really wanted Toyota execs to take the Fifth as part of the show.

While the inability to put the car in neutral or turn the engine off raises questions of driver competence, two of the anecdotal stories are just too rich. Yeah, the first thing I would do if my car accelerated to 100mph is call my spouse or 911 on my cell phone. "Hey honey its me. I'm careening down the mall parking lot at 108 mph. Any suggestions?"

I jumped on a 0% lease on a Toyota assuming I would blow by the mileage caps, trade the car in at redemption due to the fact it was likely that the resale value would equal or exceed the lease residual. Thank you asshats and Kelley Blue Book for making that a great strategic move.

47 This is 60 Minutes and Audi all over again. I'd lay real money on a wager that this problem is of the "I D 10 T" variety. And Insty notes a reader e-mail that points out corporate toady NBC, owned by GE which is fully in the tank for the Obama corporatist regime, spent eleven fucking minutes on the tube last night, just covering this story. NBC hasn't spent eleven minutes in the past three months altogether on Climategate, a topic with far more serious implications for everyone, no matter what side you're on.

48 The following is an insurmountable problem for the crony capitalists and hysterics: "Edmunds.com's analysis of NHTSA data shows no clear pattern in terms of the number of consumer complaints that trigger an agency investigation. As few as five complaints have triggered an investigation; other investigations haven't started until 1,500 complaints had accumulated,"... The report points out that between 2005 and 2010, steering problems on Chevrolet Cobalt were the subject of 1,157 complaints while Toyota Corolla steering problems were the subject of 84 complaints. According to Edmunds.com's reading of the steering complaints on both vehicles, the complaints about the Cobalt's steering are far more serious and more dangerous than are the complaints about the Corolla's steering. NHTSA recently opened official investigations of both vehicles. Karl links this at his article. So until you concern trollwads come down on Chevy like a thousand King Cabs, STFU.

49

All so the big fat union cruds in Detroit, who make more money and get better benefits than about 80% of Americans, can feel like Congress and the Precedent are on their side. F()ck this bullshit. My GM cars are gonna be driven into the ground and I'll buy Toyota or Ford or maybe even a Benz. Because they build in this country and employ Americans, too. I've got no love affair with Detroit.

As a Detroiter, I think you are completely wrong.  You believe a stereotype of the worker here which is bunk.  The domestic companies are bigger than their UAW workforce, the overall economic impact they have in this country dwarfs Toyota or any other foreign automaker.

50 I love Toyotas.

All this means to me is that it's the best time to buy a Toyota in a long time.  Prices will be lower for very reliable cars.  I trust Toyota.  I don't trust UAW cars or nationalized cars, and I never will.

If you need a car, Toyota is a place to go for a deal.

I hear a lot of anecdotes about how GM's reputation shouldn't be as bad as it is, or that Japanese cars are really secretly really bad.  I don't believe that astroturf.  The facts for the last half century have not been that Japanese cars are perfect... so isolated anecdotes mean nothing.  The facts are that GM and Chrysler sometimes make decent cars but can't be trusted, and that Honda and Toyota aren't perfect, but are very good, really the best.

51 Toyotas US workforce in 2005 was about 38,000.  Where did this 250,000 number come from?

52 Wonder if the concern trolls will be out in force? Seems to already be the case... BTW my 2004 Scion (Toyota motor) has 149k on it and runs like a dream. I love it and, when I can afford it, would gladly buy a Toyota.

53 #54: Suppliers, bro.

54 "Toyotas US workforce in 2005 was about 38,000.  Where did this 250,000 number come from?

Posted by: DM!"

It's pretty easy to understand if you attempt to read it more carefully.  Toyota buys shit from other companies.

55

Heh, so where did the number come from?

56 LOL, I used to work for Honda and they were secretly fixing all thos eborken cars and I noticed that Honda owners were really happy with their cars and shouldn't have been and were religious about their happiness with their filthy Hondas.  I'm totally concerned and conservative!  And when I worked for Chevy they were much better I thought.  All those *millions* of GM buyers who thought their cars were terrible and now are much happier with Honda are just crazy people.  Go GM!

57

As a Detroiter, I think you are completely wrong.  You believe a stereotype of the worker here which is bunk.  The domestic companies are bigger than their UAW workforce, the overall economic impact they have in this country dwarfs Toyota or any other foreign automaker.

Sorry, dude.   I believe every single stereotype of Detroit.  The UAW is a bunch of thugs.   UAW and Democrats destroyed Detroit... you reap what you sow. 

 

58

60 LOL, I used to work for Honda and they were secretly fixing all thos eborken cars and I noticed that Honda owners were really happy with their cars and shouldn't have been and were religious about their happiness with their filthy Hondas.  I'm totally concerned and conservative!  And when I worked for Chevy they were much better I thought.  All those *millions* of GM buyers who thought their cars were terrible and now are much happier with Honda are just crazy people.  Go GM!

Are you responding to me?  I never claimed to work for Honda.  I am not a concern troll.  I have a sincere belief that the domestic companies are more important to our economy.  I know they are locally.  I know most people don't care about that, but I think it is funny when people equivocate.  I was just wondering where this number came from. 

59 When I go to car shows, it's always a bunch of forty year old camaros.  I never see forty year old econobox Japanese cars.  So you know Chevies last a lot longer than Hondas.  It's just, like, totally obvious, lol.

If you don't buy GM you aren't a real American who supports your teamster leaders.

60 dm, I don't give a shit about you.  I am not responding to you.  If you want to assert that Toyota doesn't support other workers, prove it on your own.  It's pretty obvious that steel mills, parts makers, etc are employed because of Toyota but don't work for them.  Why would I or anyone really need to prove it?  Toyota is the biggest automaker in the world and add a lot of jobs.  They are better than GM and they are Obama's enemy.

Go ahead and ask your concerned questions and I'll keep mocking the general astroturf.

61 Actually bothering to read DM's comments shows he's from Detroit.  That scar is proof enough on its own that UAW scum need to be tarred and feathered.  I HATE you guys.  Auto workers who destroyed a great company don't get a dime from me that isn't stolen by democrats for your bailouts and buyouts.  I'm not a communist.

GM must fail.  Even patriotic American should make that a priority.  No Nationalized Industries of that nature should be tolerated.  Ford is OK, but just barely.  It's still UAW.  They happen to make much better shit than GM and Chrysler and aren;'t nationalized, but anyone buying a new GM or Chrysler is a fucking embarrassment and we all know it.

Indeed those two company's effect on our economy dwarf's Toyota's.  Toyota pays taxes and makes a profit, much of which goes to help build America.  GM and Chrysler STEAL wealth from our grandkids.  they don't contribute.  the world would be a better place if we just tore the plants down and executed the thug union leaders, but I'll settle for bankruptcy and entrepreneurs buying the wreckage of GM and trying to make something good out of it.

Honda and Toyota are paying for our aircraft carriers, our highways, our fire departments.  fat greedy UAW companies that don't make a profit, GM and Chrysler, are adding hugely to our deficit we can barely service the interest on.  Because so many red state types simply hate their guts now, the don't have the brand value to ever pay off their tremendous debt to society.

At least Ford makes a bit of profit once in a while and their cars aren't garbage.  But the era when Unions helped society was vastly exaggerated and certainly long over.  We need a national right to work amendment.

62 65 dm, I don't give a shit about you.  I am not responding to you. 

Usually people just, you know, don't respond.  I don't know if you are claiming I am astroturfing, but it seems to me that I am just the only one who had a contrary view.

I never said Toyota doesn't hire Americans, any car company who does business in our market does.  I think you may have inflated their importance and minimized the footprints the domestics have.  I can chime in when I think something errant  is being accepted as fact.  I don't care if you buy whatever car you think is the best deal for you.  I think someone who really thought their purchasing choice made no difference wouldn't be so touchy about it. 

I am not a concern troll, unless you have a personal definition of it as "someone who doesn't agree with what I say."

63

throwaway handle, how about instead - the government should not own companies, should not run companies, and should get out of the way of companies.  They should lower taxes and regulatory red tape.

"GM must fail" is great because you have equated the company with Obama, but you are basically saying a shit-ton of Americans should lose their jobs for a political point. 

64 The Dems are thinking more of protecting the UAW than of GM or Chrysler.

65 throwaway handle, seriously, you sound like the concern troll here.  Honda is paying for aircraft carriers? 

66

Also, memo to throwaway handle - not everyone in Detroit works for the UAW (or any union at all).  You hate the UAW or me?  Or both!?

I do agree with you that GM is a great company.  I worked there for a short period (in an office though, sorry to disappoint). Do you know how much work we did for the State Department? For free? Cause we had greater resources than they do and almost as big a reach?  No you don't.  Never fear, I am sure Honda will help out with all of that when they are done building that new Navy fleet.

The real crime here was that the Democrats were allowed to even get inside the walls of major US businesses.  The solution is not to kill the businesses (which the Democrats will do themselves anyways), but get them the fuck out.

 

67

Last night I sat in abject horror as da MSM based their entire story about the hearings on some crybaby bitch testifying in front of Congress. Crybaby related her harrowing tale of a car accelerating out of control. Horrifying accident that killed children? Nope. Crybaby bitch paralyzed in the accident? Nope. Just, you know, the car accelerated while she was driving it. Crybaby claimed the car zoomed up to 100 mph! And she made sure, through them big tears, to call Toyota a greedy corporation!

I think Saudi Arabia has the right idea about women and cars.

68

At least Ford makes a bit of profit once in a while and their cars aren't garbage.

Speak for yourself. You couldn't pay me to take a Ford automobile.

69

The real crime here was that the Democrats were allowed to even get inside the walls of major US businesses.  The solution is not to kill the businesses (which the Democrats will do themselves anyways), but get them the fuck out.~DM!

Chrysler and GM would be dead now without the bailout, you know the one that shoved the investors to the back of the line?  That bailout.  These companies are dead men walking and their continued existence keeps any chance of an economic recovery by the proper market realignment of finances, resources,  and manpower from beginning.

The corruption that these companies, Chrysler and GM, represent is reason enough to hope for their dissolution.  The bailout was nothing short of vote buying and paying to top off the benefits that UAW workers went on strike to gain while other Americans are losing everything is sick and twisted.

Proud Toyota RAV4 Driver.

70 I want a lesson that will last for the rest of this country's life.  Nationalizing this sort of business is an abomination.  In the short term practical sense, it's better to just let GM buy itself back in some way and be free of the government.  That's probably what the UAW favoring but non commie folks want (if there are any of those).

BUT, in the long term, it's better for GM to be annihilated.  A lot of people simply will never consider them or Chrysler again.  Liberals love foreign cars and conservatives hate nationalized cars.

The autoworkers who can do good work might be able to get a job for a new US Automaker or Honda.  Or do something else.  Start their own company.  innovate.  But this GM Chysler deal is so offensive to the USA that I don't want the government just out of the company... I want the company destroyed.  Learning NEVER to do this again is worth that steep price.

71  Ok...so posit a Constitutional argument for Congress (Republican or Democrat controlled) dragging a foreign national CEO into DC in order to question his business model?

 Posit a similar argument for taking over GM and punishing GM's competitors?

(Article 1, Sections 8 and 9.)

72

Speller, here is where you are wrong:  What really caused these companies to founder was the credit freeze.  That was a result of policies coming out of Washington in relation to residential housing.  GM was caught out on this through their ResCap unit.  The companies were on a turn-around path, and idiotic government policies knocked their feet out from under them.  Maybe they needed assistance, I have no idea, but if they did,  it could have been structured like the Chrysler loan in the early 80s.  The nationalization of industry is bad.  You say it is vote buying, and maybe it is for the union, but Washington control polls terribly here.

If you have an honest intellectual case to say "let 'em fail" you may be right.  I think it'd cause a depression (Michigan is already in one, technically speaking), but that might be the quickest path to a reversal of fortune.  The situation we have now is this: Democrats propping up and running an industry they know squat about (and handing partial control to a union which is somehow supposed to own two companies and negiotiate with their competitor?!) and Republicans ("my side" if I have one) who basically stand by and let this happen and then gleefully beat the industry shouting "UAW UAW! Obama!" (see posts above).  Stuck in the middle are millions of actual people (like everybody I know), stuck in a stupid political game.  I know some people just say "Hey bro, love my Toyota, hate you, hate Detroit, hate the domestic companies!"  (By the way, I don't think every Toyota buyer hates domestic brands, in most cases they just bought a car that fit their needs and was a good deal). 

Meanwhile Washington is pushing windmills and movie making as Michigan's future.  It is a pipe-dream.  U.S. heavy manufacturing has been withering on the vine for years, but if it is going to die we need to look at the actual scope of the problem and have like, a real discussion about what this all means.  Windmills won't replace it, and neither will a few foreign-owned plants. 

73

76 But this GM Chysler deal is so offensive to the USA that I don't want the government just out of the company... I want the company destroyed.  Learning NEVER to do this again is worth that steep price.

Following this logic, we should destroy the companies and the country and REALLY teach 'em!

But seriously, you made some good points there, and Michigan's workers are already leaving in droves, it is the bottom state in population growth (one of three with a net loss).  A lot of my friends now work in Colorado or California (most in tech, none in automotive).  United Van Lines says Michigan was the number one state for outbound traffic in 2009 with 67.1% of trucks leaving the state. 

74

I bought my Toyota, before the economic crash, because I hate Unions, period.

They are a large part of what is wrong with our nation both socially and economically.  Is Michigan a state that has legislation that promotes and protects the Unions, discouraging non-Union industrial manufacturers from locating there?  YES.

Is that the fault of even the non-UAW voters in Michigan?  YES.

Suck it, commies.  Comeuppance time.

75 Of course, according to today's  Detroit Free Press, the change in median sale price in my suburban neighborhood from '07-'09 was -60.5%.  Since I am not a guy who is going to walk away from my mortgage, I am stuck here for the foreseeable future.  So I naturally have some concerns about where this all goes.

76

"A lot of people simply will never consider them or Chrysler again."

Present!

77
]

Suck it, commies.  Comeuppance time.

Posted by: Speller

Yeah, that about sums it up.  I don't want my kids to have to deal with a world with Government Motors.  I hope they are simply shut down and sold off piece by piece.  Let Toyota but the Corvette IP and Honda buy the Silverado (like they'd want it).  Let some genius buy a couple of their plants and see what they can do with it.

But any future for GM is an argument in favor of nationalizing our industries and more witch-hunts.  And of course, this kind of witchhunt is only half the equation.  GM defects will be covered up.

78

For the record, the correct term is NOT "Government Motors".

It is "American Leyland".

Carry on.

79

You call me a commie for being a conservative in a blue state?  I sort of get now why guys like Ace say "Hey, we can't be some hardass hardline party if we want to get elected."  If I actually thought you represented conservatives or the GOP I would probably never bother to vote again. 

Speller, you are very edgy and cool and I think your amazing insights have just enabled this thread to finally die. 

80 DM, I'm sorry your city was destroyed and you are stuck there because of financial concerns.

Indeed, that's what GM is trying to do to my family, and I won't let them get away with it.  That's what Chrysler and GM are doing to our entire country.  If they get their way, Honda's next.  BMW is next.  You will have a country that heavily subsidizes industry, drives away competition, and a corrupt batch of DC thugs borrowing more and more money to keep the unsustainable ponzi scheme running.  We'll all be trapped in a bad economic situation.

Helping Detroit thugs make enough money to save Detroit isn't worth fucking up my country with this much completely wasted debt.  File bankruptcy and walk away if that's your best out, but don't bet on Detroit ever being a good place to live again in your lifetime.  Get your family the hell out of there.

Liberals love foreign makes, and GM was counting on red blooded Texans and Kansans who love big trucks and suburbans and Impalas... people who will deal with a poor reliability record over decades because they love their country.  Veterans.  Small business owners.  republicans.  People who hate communism and nationalized companies.  The UAW leadership knows they have ruined this source of sales in exchange for their personal buyouts.  They already have theirs and you won't get yours.  GM simply is loathed for reasons they will never be able to overcome.  Even if they offer me a Chevy made of gold for $5 I really don't want it.  I'd be ashamed to have it.

81 41 The psychology of the import "true believer" being what it is, the American car really does have to be twice as good to be though of half as well by them.

Posted by: Rule303 at February 24, 2010 10:23 AM (XeNiZ)

Fuck off troll; I go by my actual experience.  I'm not one of your NPR snots that looks down his fucking nose on anything made in the US.  I would gladly buy US if I hadn't been burned by them before.  Maybe they've improved on quality but guess what:  They sold me junk previously and until I feel the same way about Toyota, which you posting something contrary has no fucking impact, I'm not buying from them.

Posted by: Captain Hate at February 24, 2010 11:09 AM (ypGDY)


Now that is funny; I'm a troll? Who's the foul mouth here?
Your sputtering rage suggests strongly that I did have some real impact, at least on you. Seems to me you must realize that your attachment to Japanese cars isn't completely rational or you wouldn't have responded that way.
Anyway, Cpt. Hate (seems appropriate, no?) I only hope that nothing similar happens to whatever industry you work in. It would be a real shame if folks started buying or using something imported because a irrational "feelings" rather than demonstrable facts.

82

83 And of course, this kind of witchhunt is only half the equation.  GM defects will be covered up.

thowaway handle here is one thing I completely agree with you about.  A govenrment should not run an industry for a million reasons, a huge one being that they oversee everybody else.  The conflicts are huge and undercut their regulatory authority.  (Aside from the fact that they shouldn't take over private businesses ever ever ever).  I have no affection for Toyota, but I can completely see how the government can't be an honest broker (or, I should saw can be even less of one than usual) in this or any other case involving any car-maker.

A similar set of problems exists with Union ownership, but it is even more convoluted.  The whole thing is an abomination.

The only thing we disagree on is whether the industry matters to this country.

83

DM! you're a commie.

There, that is me calling you a commie.  I didn't do that above.  See the difference?  The communist Union threat to all of our futures has to end.

Michigan has the protection of Unions built right into it's labour laws.  How to get that entrenched commie B.S. out of the law?  Failure, economic failure, that's how.  It isn't just about you DM! or other people of your state.

The bailout money is a National tax grab and socialist power play that affects us all.  If you're a conservative you'll recognize that.

If I actually thought you represented conservatives or the GOP I would probably never bother to vote again. ~DM!

Conservatives are independents who are aware that they have to take individual responsibility for their lives.  I am often disagreed with here.

You're a real drama queen, DM!  Are you sure you want to claim that you're a conservative?

84

Basically, throwaway handle, you are saying that the car companies can't survive even if they are returned to the public exchange because the taint of Obama is too great.  That may be the case.

But I think you're getting into hyperbole with BMW and Honda are next.  Next what?  Next to have an unprecedented recall? I don't think Toyota's recall problem is invented, but they have handled it terribly and now (since the industry has been politicized) it will turn into a circus in Washington. Maybe you are saying they are next to be nationalized, which isn't possible.

I am saying I think you personally will be in a worse situation if the domestic companies fail (no matter where you live, I have seen domestic companies supply-chain maps - they have suppliers, plants, parts operations, etc from coast-to-coast), but it could be better to have a full-blown 24 hour flu than a cold that drags on. 

85 I'm sure we'll see a lot of very concerned conservatives who can't stomach voting for the GOP if we aren't cool with sending more money to Michigan, land of the absolute worst this nation has to offer in just about ever area.  John Conyers.  The Pontiac Aztec.  Rich Rodriguez.

Just kidding about Rich, but we really should put the people behind this nationalization on trial.  And whoever is attempting to nationalize our private industries should be seriously punished.

It'll come around.  We aren't going to buy anything made in Michigan.   Might as well buy something made in Moscow.

86

Speller, you called non-UAW Michigan voters commies, which I happen to be (not like you'd know that - my mistake). 

My point is that the way to change my state is to promote conservative values within it, "FAIL YOU COMMIES" sounds pretty rad but doesn't really get people to the polls, if you get my drift.

The bailout is a joke, I know it, you know it.  Guess what? AIG got $170 billion.  How many people do they employ? 

87

but it could be better to have a full-blown 24 hour flu than a cold that drags on.~DM!

The Unions aren't a cold, they're a cancer, they're parasitic.

88

throwaway, I am not saying Michigan needs more money.  It doesn't.

We have voted GOP (Engler, Mike Cox, Brooks Patterson) in the past.  There is a real chance to take Granholm's seat, but people have to think the GOP gives a shit.

89 Speller, you're like arguing with a bizzaro Koz Kid.  I say X is bad, you say X is the devil!   Noted!

90 Here's the thing, though.

I love Chevies.  I have always bought GM.  Suburbans, 1500s, Buick Century, a couple of Saturns, a nice 80s Cutlass.  I even have a 442 back from when GM's best marque still existed.

I always wanted a Corvette.

I've owned two Japanese cars and either one of them outlasted even the excellent Buick and Saturn and the rest of them put together (if by outlasted you mean until a breakdown).  But I still felt some kind of visceral appeal for a good Chevy.  I've been watching Nascar for 30 years.   I don't like front wheel drive.

I will never, ever buy GM again.  Not just because the Japanese cars I have are obviously a lot better.  But because I hate GM.  I just hate them.  They are hated with a special hate that is reserved for ex wives and best friends turned enemy.  I supported GM when they made crap because I wanted to help employ Americans, and in turn, GM, her thugs, and her politicians, STOLE from my kids and my country.

And I know I'm not alone.  My next door neighbor is a Mopar guy.  Next to his old Durango is a brand new Civic.  Without even saying anything (though we did talk about it), I knew damn well why he didn't buy a Chrysler product and never will again.

I pray for a US automaker to emerge that doesn't use unions and makes reliable mass produced cars at a reasonable price.  I'd pay extra.  I won't pay a penny for a Chevy, and I was exactly their target customer that they worked so hard to win back by revamping their reliability.  If you have a problem with my views, I agree with DM that you should vote for democrats.

91 Now that is funny; I'm a troll? Who's the foul mouth here?
Your sputtering rage suggests strongly that I did have some real impact, at least on you. Seems to me you must realize that your attachment to Japanese cars isn't completely rational or you wouldn't have responded that way.

Sputtering rage?  You pat yourself on the back way too much, junior.  You're the one with a huge ego that says nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about except ;you (or don't you even read your comments to see what provokes a reaction), so a model of modesty you ain't.  So why don't you just say your experience is anecdotal just like everybody else's and you aren't the sooper genius expert that you try to present yourself as?  Again here's my argument:  I had a bad experience with a Ford; I haven't had a bad experience with multiple Toyotas.  What's not rational about preferring Toyotas?  Your experiences with Chevrolet and Honda don't mean jackshit to me.

92 Of course, I'm not exactly being punished for buying Hondas instead of Chevies.  Hondas/toyotas are a lot better cars and cost a lot less to own, since I don't even know where a Honda/Toyota mechanic is in my town (I have over half a million miles on 2 Japanese cars).

My irritation at UAW is paying dividends when my wife needs her car to start late at night and the damn thing always starts 100% of the time.  A LOT of loyal GM and Chrysler buyers... millions of them, are realizing that they were missing out all these years.  It only takes one Honda to make you a lifer.

93 "your attachment to Japanese cars isn't completely rational"

If this is coming from someone telling my to buy a Chevy or a Dodge, that's hilarious.

Cars are emotional things.  I love the way my Honda was built with pride by patriotic Americans.  I know the details are right.  I don't know what my engine looks like, since I haven't opened the hood except to change the oil.  But I know it probably looks real good.  Emotion is a reason to prefer something.  And when I see a new Chevy, I know the person driving it is a douche.  Douchey loser who isn't manly enough to throw off the shackles of big government. 

If you drive a new Camaro, you're a douche.  Everyone thinks so.  Your neighbors are embarrassed to know you.

94

Speller, you called non-UAW Michigan voters commies, which I happen to be (not like you'd know that - my mistake). ~DM!

No, I didn't call non-Union voters commies.   The "commies" part was a separate paragraph.  I did, however, say that it was the fault of non-UAW voters that Michigan protects the Unions to everyone's disadvantage.  Does that include you if you vote conservative?  I guess it does.  I apologize.

It should be recognized that even the non-UAW voters probably have some family members who are UAW and therefore benefit from the Unions.  Should we all have to pay for this failed business model that allowed itself to be infested with Unionistas?  NO.

It's time that people realized that it's more patriotic to fight the Unions than to worry about Union jobs and offshoot jobs now, than to keep the cancer alive to kill the nation later.

Speller, you're like arguing with a bizzaro Koz Kid.  I say X is bad, you say X is the devil!   Noted!~DM! 

Not at all.  You compared the flu to the cold.  Fact is, the flu and a cold are the same thing.  What people erroneously call the 24hr flu is food poisoning.  Few people die from a cold.  The Unions have been spreading insidiously throughout this country for a long time, just like a cancer,  and they must be eradicated.

Should what started out as a collective bargaining coalition  have an affect on state and national politics including a claim on the public purse while pretending to pose as a non-partisan apolitical entity outside of political rules and regulations that apply to registered political Parties?

HELL NO!

95

throwaway handle, I agree with you that the bailout is a shit deal.  But you are completely avoiding my point.  I am just saying a) the companies are economically important, b) that they should not be in government hands, c) they should pay back every cent they got, and d) they should be publicly traded.

These companies didn't "steal" money, they accepted what was supposed to be a loan and the government used that to take control of them.  They accepted the overtures and the rest was forced on them.  (I don't think they should have accepted anything.) You think Rick Wagoner thought the President would be allowed to fire him? I don't. Republicans should have been up in arms about this, it is Chavez stuff.  But instead they wanted Obama to own it, cause they knew it was a disaster.

This is one area where your solution makes no sense.  You say we've thrown all this money into this, and should not have, so the best course is to let it collapse.  You'd think you'd want someone to jump in and untangle the mess so there is a chance the money goes back where it came from.

 

96 Right to Work amendment and outlawing basically all pro-union legislation.  tort reform.  And tax breaks for new business owners (with some kind of method of preventing it from being reused).

Watch this country fly right back into prosperity.  Even Michigan.

97

100 Not at all.  You compared the flu to the cold.  Fact is, the flu and a cold are the same thing.  What people erroneously call the 24hr flu is food poisoning.  Few people die from a cold. 

Thanks Captain Pedant.

98

102 Right to Work amendment and outlawing basically all pro-union legislation.  tort reform.  And tax breaks for new business owners (with some kind of method of preventing it from being reused).

Watch this country fly right back into prosperity.  Even Michigan.

Couldn't agree more.

99 I didn't ignore your argument that they are economically important.  They are so important they are crippling our economy, so I know they are important.

Let's only have automakers that make money.  Those that can't and fail can be sold to new investors.  Risk is a good thing.

Fact is, and mainly because of union rules, there are far too many cars being built.  This is because some idiots thing we should have make-work instead of real-work that is wanted.  It's short term thinking on top of short term thinking and it leads to bubbles that burst.

I am not ignoring your point.  You don't have a good one, though.  'too big to fail' is not accurate and it's not a reason for the government to own a car company.

Let it fail and our economy be sustainable and realistic.  Let people compete on a level playing ground.  Honda and toyota won.  GM and Chrysler were killed by real competition and hard work.  It's not fair for the government to steal money out of my wallet to fund broken companies to save a few fat cats.  If my business fails, you aren't going to have to pay to keep me employed.  Because I'm in a red state.

100 This means people will have to figure out a way to make a living without big government, and I know that's real scary.  Personal responsibility is scary without determination and resolve.  all that goes back to our education system and our family values.  It's a mess we're in.  We can't get out of it by borrowing more money.  That's an illusion.  the collapse DM is worried about is going to happen whether he gets his way or not.  It'll just be worse later and it would have been a lot better years ago.

Trying to put it off in the future ignores some basic facts.  Cars last forever now.  We need fewer of them.  We're making more of them.  Some automakers have too many employees and some of them are going to be out of work.  GM and Chrysler simply cannot sustain their obligations and survive, and that's the union members' faults for forcing horrible obligations on their companies.  When the government starts to pay for their pensions (already do), I will just get more angry.

It's not like they would pay my pension when my company goes out of business, especially if I extorted an unfair and unsustainable pension out of my company.  A lot of union behavior is simply criminal.

The collapse is coming sooner or later.  We have to get the government much smaller, and punish the crooks such as GM and bailout banks.  While that will hurt, as I said a while ago, it's the best path on a long term view.

101

DM!, you said the thread was dead at  #85 and you call me a pendant?  It really is all about you isn't it, DM!?

I pointed out how you were underselling the Union problem as a cold when it's really a cancer.  Deal with it.

You have benefited from the Unions even when you weren't a member and now you get to suffer with them when they go down.  Sucks to be a collaborator.

Right to work legislation is cool and all, but what happens at a Union shop when a bunch of Union thugs start to lean on an individual who won't pay Union dues?  Accidents happen in an industrial shop, that's what happens.

The Unions have to go.  The got where they are with muscle and they'll only leave the same way.

102

Last night I sat in abject horror as da MSM based their entire story about the hearings on some crybaby bitch testifying in front of Congress. Crybaby related her harrowing tale of a car accelerating out of control. Horrifying accident that killed children? Nope. Crybaby bitch paralyzed in the accident? Nope. Just, you know, the car accelerated while she was driving it. Crybaby claimed the car zoomed up to 100 mph! And she made sure, through them big tears, to call Toyota a greedy corporation!

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at February 24, 2010 01:16 PM (P33XN)

I was incredulous that the dipshit scrunt got so much coverage in the evening news. I was thinking "Isn't there some real news to report other than this maudlin bint auditioning for Dr Phil or Oprah?"

103 @91, the Pontiac Aztec was made in Mexico.

104

Growing up all we bought we're American made cars. If you ever had told me that someday I would even consider buying a Japanese car, I'd have told you that you're nuts.

Then the family went through two catastrophic failures of American cars in the 80s. Checked out Japanese models and have never looked back. Reasons: I could no longer trust the American manufacturers to make a car that wouldn't fail. Plus a car costs too much to take the chance of getting another POS and the runaround from the manufacturer. And the comparable American car always seems to cost about $2-3K more.

I couldn't be loyal to the brand when the brand took me for a chump. 

105 Oh, the Aztec was from Ramos Arizpe, Mexico.  I'm amused at the name now.

Whatever.  It's pure Detroit.  Through and through.  Conyers isn't from DC but that's where he does his damage.

But it's a good point.  a lot of the money being stolen from my country's future is actually building plants in Brazil and Russia.

106 JW, that's me too.  I didn't want to like Hondas and Toyotas.  I want a rear wheel drive badass car with American heritage.

But eventually, GM drove me to give Japan a chance, and now I understand how they take pride in their company.  While my Accord was built, designed, and driven only by Americans, it's a greatness of pride that isn't 100%, but it's pretty up there. 

A lot of Americans wouldn't give the Japanese a chance until G.D.America democrats and G.D.America UAW thugs nationalized their industry with my money.  How short sighted.  Once millions of loyal GM buyers give Toyota or Honda a chance, almost all of them are never coming back.  And this is not going to go away.  So GM should hang it up.  Their future is dark.

107 We should have TEA party protests at GM and Chrysler dealerships.  Test-Drive-In.

Handcuff yourself to the steering wheel of a subsidized POS.

108 Bring back the "YO" on the back panels of their trux.

109 UCO, for sure, it is harder to get replacement parts for a GM or Chrysler.  And the White House is at fault.  They do not want you to keep an old used car on the road, especially if you already bought GM and might do so again.

You're not only supporting communism if you buy a new GM, you're an idiot.  I'm glad you, like most GM buyers, are not an idiot and won't be back at the GM dealer.

Cash for Clunkers was all about not making do with a long lasting car.  They plan to do that again and again if they can get away with it, and my Honda probably will always be running too well for me to even consider it.

110 Here's a thought. I live in Japan. I watch the Japanese news, and the news media in Japan LOVES to hammer government, or companies, that do something wrong. And in this case... they are asking a few questions. 1) Why are none of these problems being found outside of the United States? Australia isn't having these problems, and neither are the Japanese themselves. No acceleration, the brakes work fine, etc.. 2) Why is the only place this an issue the same place where the government is involved in auto manufacturing to the degree that the US is? And these are legit questions.