1 Would that be sporting, really?

_{just kidding, I like it}

2 Didn't Nelson die at Trafalgar?

3 Nelson admitted his tactics were tailored to the opposition.The French Navy was in disarray after the Revolution.Almost all the officers emigrated.It never quite recovered.The Spanish were a failing power for decades before Trafalgar.

4 2 Didn't Nelson die at Trafalgar?

Can Newt be our Nelson?  (Just kidding.  Sort of.)

5 And Yet, so many people keep denouncing the "Birther" issue.

6 2 Yes,shot in the spine by a sharpshooter in the shrouds of a French ship of the line.

7 I like the cut of this Admiral's jib, and would like to subscribe to his newsletter

8 Didn't Nelson die at Trafalgar?

Let's not talk about that

9 2 Didn't Nelson die at Trafalgar? Posted by: zmdavid at August 19, 2010 10:01 PM (LIm6j) I volunteer Huckabee for the Nelson role!

10 Cry Havoc! and let slip the blogs of war.

11 And Yet, so many people keep denouncing the "Birther" issue.

It's not really something to campaign on directly.  Though I was amused to see the poll a couple of weeks ago that had only 42% of Americans 'sure' he was born in Hawaii. 

12 So...Let's see if Rush mentions this "chaos and confusion" thing - if he doesn't, I am sending him a link to this post.

13 Sounds like "Operation Chaos: Part II" has been born.

14 Nelson drilled his gun crews relentlessly.  The Brits were able to fire at a more rapid rate and with greater accuracy than the French.  Our side needs to keep up the same relentless and accurate rate of fire as the Royal Navy at Trafalgar.  Lord knows, Obumble, Pelosi and Company will give us plenty of fat, slow-moving targets between now and November 2.

15 How do we identify each other on election day? a Red button. a Red Wave gif on our facebook profile. I am up for suggestions for ONE SIMPLE UNIFYING STICKER/BUTTON/SIGNAL to other ANTI-Obamans that vote this year.

16 And Yet, so many people keep denouncing the "Birther" issue.

----------------------

Yeah, because it's fucking retarded.

Nelson didn't load his cannons with pop-out flags that said "BOOM!" 

17 6 2 Yes,shot in the spine by a sharpshooter in the shrouds of a French ship of the line. Posted by: steevy at August 19, 2010 10:03 PM (GAViH) That was just the English propaganda... it was more like, shot in the ass while in between the sheets with a French whore of the line. The truth is not always the best policy...

18 Nelson drilled his gun crews relentlessly.  The Brits were able to fire at a more rapid rate and with greater accuracy than the French.  Our side needs to keep up the same relentless and accurate rate of fire as the Royal Navy at Trafalgar.  Lord knows, Obumble, Pelosi and Company will give us plenty of fat, slow-moving targets between now and November 2.

Posted by: Reiver at August 19, 2010 10:08 PM (RPPEk)

Fer shizzle. *double barrel finger point*

19 Rush was carrying on today about how more and more Democrats doubt that Obama is indeed a Christian. Wouldn't the simple way for Obama to prove he's a Christian be to produce a baptismal certificate? No! Wait!

20 Voters = Billy Mumy

Democrats = Mr. Jack-in-the-Box in the cornfield.

21 oh screw birtherism.  we don't need that distraction.  the fate of the republic is at stake.

22 With 20+% of the public willing to believe Ogabe is a muslim,

Hell, at this point I think 20% of the public is willing to believe he's Kodos.

(Don't blame me, I voted for Kang)

23 Great. Everyone sign up for Talking Points Memo accounts then.

Play nice for a few weeks for maximum effect.

24 18 Nelson drilled his gun crews relentlessly. That's why we shot him.

25 Did you meet him, sir?
Can you tell me what he's like?



I have had the honour
of dining with him twice.



He spoke to me on both occasions.

The first time that he spoke to me...



I shall never forget his words.
I remember it like it was yesterday.



He leaned across the table,
he looked me straight in the eye,



and he said "Aubrey...
may I trouble you for the salt?"

26 I think the battle of Hiroshima is a better model.

27 So we're supposed to get hopped-up on crack and start murdering people? That didn't work out for me last election.

28
It's not really something to campaign on directly.  Though I was amused to see the poll a couple of weeks ago that had only 42% of Americans 'sure' he was born in Hawaii. 

Posted by: Methos at August 19, 2010 10:07 PM (aN5sE)

How can anyone be SURE? Hawaii will give a birth certificate to anyone on a relatives say so. I know from personal first hand experience that the state will issue a birth certificate that is full of false information.

29 Democrats will crush your opportunities to get a job, and when you are barely feeding yourself on foodstamps, they'll let you starve so a union member in Sacremento gets a bigger pension. Democrats will vote themselves lavish raises and tax your property 6 times in a year until you can't afford your house. Then you will find out they faked an election to do it, and theres NOTHING you can do about it. (Welcome to Bell). Democrats want to investigate and harass you for having a different opinion. If that doesn't work, they will sue you over an opinion. All of these are true. All of these aren't hyped. All of these scare people. The first 2 is already infuriating the poor of South Los Angeles. KEEP THAT MESSAGE GOING THERE, and Democrats won't have a home left. Find whatever doubts or anger exists inside the Democratic tent OVER other Democratic policies, and AGGREVATE THEM.

30 Create chaos and eeyorism on the left- join TPM, FireDogLake (though they are already in eeyore stages), DU, DailyKos. A few hundred new accounts with their new members going sour... always good.

31 Why is it Obama critics' job to debunk false rumors about Obama?  The correct response to Birthers and people who think Obama is a secret Muslim is point and laugh at Obama. He's supposed to be such a great orator. I don't believe either of those things, but I really don't care if someone else does. Maybe if Obama were more trustworthy on other matters, these things wouldn't stick around.

32 Ishtar dinner? What the hell is Darth Rove babbling about?

33 Yeah, because it's fucking retarded.

Nelson didn't load his cannons with pop-out flags that said "BOOM!" 

Posted by: schizuki at August 19, 2010 10:09 PM (Xd9fe)

It is NOT retarded. It was just declared so, first by our enemies, then shortly thereafter by many of our allies.

Had John McCain not had his own issues to deal with, Obama would not have been able to finesse this issue. It was a stroke of dumb luck for Obama to get McCain as an opponent. No one else would have let him get away without proving his bonafides.

34 21 oh screw birtherism.  we don't need that distraction.  the fate of the republic is at stake.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 19, 2010 10:11 PM (Pm5H

It would not have been had this issue been addressed. You are saying let's ignore the problem that got us here in the first place!

35 Didn't Rommel employ a somewhat similar tactic, that of probing at the opposing line, and on finding a weak point, throw everything at it?
Perhaps I should explain that by similar, I mean that neither relied as much on advance planning, as each relied on the ability of his forces to take advantage of a fluid situation, moreso than the opposition.
Infantry Attacks has been on my "to read" list for ages, I'll get to it sometime.

36 @DiogenesLamp -

Unless he has a time machine, he was born in Hawaii.  Birth announcement in the paper.

So either he was born in Hawaii, he wasn't born in Hawaii and it was known then that he would be President (and so the records were faked), or he has a time machine, or Occam's Razor applies.

He is, however, brutally incompetent and it is becoming evident to even the dullest of wits that he just really does not like common folk.

37 Hey don't forget about me! I was pretty awesome too!

38 and he said "Aubrey...
may I trouble you for the salt?"


Posted by: DiogenesLamp
--

You must always choose the lesser of two weevils.

39 Diogenes @ 34 - yes.  because what's done cannot be undone.  he's the prez and that's not going to change - until  Jan. 20, 2013 or until impeachment & removal.  grousing about "he's not legitimate in the first place!!!" is just not helpful.

40 So we're supposed to get hopped-up on crack and start murdering people?

You might want to avoid the felony grade stuff.

41 Yeah, lets focus on an issue that will have no bearing on any future election.

42 Diogenes @ 34 and by all means, persuade state legislatures to make stricter requirements for who gets on the ballot in 2012.  i'm all for that.  haven't a couple of states already done that? 

43 31 Why is it Obama critics' job to debunk false rumors about Obama?  The correct response to Birthers and people who think Obama is a secret Muslim is point and laugh at Obama. He's supposed to be such a great orator. I don't believe either of those things, but I really don't care if someone else does. Maybe if Obama were more trustworthy on other matters, these things wouldn't stick around.

Posted by: zmdavid at August 19, 2010 10:18 PM (LIm6j)

I believe I heard Rush mentioning today that the Muslims regard Obama as a Muslim. Apparently the tenets of Islam state that if you were born to a Muslim father, you ARE a Muslim. Apart from that, he's said he was a Muslim on at least TWO occasions that I am aware of. While we're at it, He's said he was born in Kenya, and His wife said he was from Kenya TWICE! 

44 It was a stroke of dumb luck for Obama to get McCain as an opponent.

McCain was shoved down the country's throat by the media and vote fraud.

45 Seriously, time to get gonzo on these scumbags Regarding HST “I know,” Johnson replied. “But let’s make the son of a bitch deny it."

46 The hateful tone of this blog is distressing to responsible conservatives like myself. I'm converting to Islam; it's the only way to prove America won. Plus, I like wearing dresses in tents.

47 And don't forget about me either! Nelson said he never saw such bravery and skill after I burned the Philadelphia to keep it out of Babary hands!

48 The bombing of Saddam's reactor only took 12 planes.

49 48 The bombing of Saddam's reactor only took 12 planes. Posted by: FlaviusJulius at August 19, 2010 10:26 PM (i6UsH) Yes, but that was back in the Good Old Days, before Leftists were more committed to Iran getting nukes than they are even to building a mosque at Ground Zero. Indeed... anyone opposed to Iran getting nukes is a bigot!

50 Seek and create chaos and confusion, and profit from it because you're better prepared for fighting in that situation than the opposition.

W.W. Beauchamp: When confronted by superior numbers, an experienced gunfighter will always fire on the best shot first.
Will Munny: Is that so?
W.W. Beauchamp: Yeah, Little Bill told me that. And you probably killed him first, didn't you?
Will Munny: I was lucky in the order, but I've always been lucky when it comes to killin' folks.

51 Can Newt be our Nelson?  (Just kidding.  Sort of.)
Posted by: Reiver at August 19, 2010 10:02 PM

Does that mean you want to see Newt lying on the deck saying :"kiss me, Hardy" like ol' Horatio?

In Newt's case, it'd probably be more like "kiss me, Hannity."

And Sean would. Right on the ass.

52 36 @DiogenesLamp -

Unless he has a time machine, he was born in Hawaii.  Birth announcement in the paper.

So either he was born in Hawaii, he wasn't born in Hawaii and it was known then that he would be President (and so the records were faked), or he has a time machine, or Occam's Razor applies.

He is, however, brutally incompetent and it is becoming evident to even the dullest of wits that he just really does not like common folk.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 10:22 PM (y05cf)

Yes sir, I'm fully aware of that fact. In fact it was TWO papers. I have copies of both papers.  It has been explained to me that these are generated automatically when the paperwork is filed with the state. These two announcements prove that he was born around that time, and that someone filed out paperwork which claimed he was born in Hawaii. They do not actually PROVE he was born in Hawaii.

Since his mother was on Mercer Island 15 days after he was born, (as established by University Records.) It seems odd that she would have left Hawaii so soon after giving birth.

The Grandparents could have simply signed an affidavit attesting to an "At Home birth" and that would have generated the newspaper announcements, and the short form Birth Certification.

53 Birthers? Fucking retard birthers?

Get a life, you losers.  Or go play on a different blog. You are too boring for most sentient humans.

54

Interestingly, the Spanish Armada was routed for some of the same reasons. The Spanish fleet was vastly superior but slow, stodgy, with restrictive command chains and formations. The English ships, built largely for piracy were able to out maneauver them and then God did the rest.

Sound good?

55 Fun Fact: They stuffed Nelson's body into a barrel of rum until they could get it back to England. That's why Pusser's Rum is called "Nelson's Blood."

56 You must always choose the lesser of two weevils.

Posted by: Retread at August 19, 2010 10:22 PM (VKUdB)

Is that what we did with Obama and McCain?

57 The really funny thing is that if Obama actually demonstrated his Christianity, it would turn off his base, who have been demonizing Christians for decades.

58 Diogenes, what I meant was we're already getting the benefit we're going to get from that issue.  Folks who have soured on Obama have done so to the point that they're expressing doubts on his basic legitimacy to pollsters as the best 'FU' they can come up with.  Which will drive the libs crazy.  And lead them to make mistakes.

59 Good photo for campaign ad.

60 “I know,” Johnson replied. “But let’s make the son of a bitch deny it."

This sort of attack is essentially what got Robert Wexler in FL to resign in the middle of his term.  He was accused of not being a FL resident, which he wasn't since he used an in-law's house as a mail drop, then did some little technical shuffle renting an apartment which he never stayed in locally so he could claim residency.  The allegations wouldn't go away, and I think he realized he was going to be toast the next time around and lose to another dem in a primary.

All of these creeps have vulnerabilities that can be exploited.  It may take going through county records looking for thing like judgments against them, seeing how many lawsuits they've filed against other people, etc.

Infiltrating their campaign headquarters as a "volunteer" might turn up a treasure trove of exploitable information.

61 diogenes: at this point, it does not fucking matter where obama was born. 

62 #55

And it is fine rum. In fact, I just tried it with some weird Jamaican grapefruit soda, and it was great!

63 39 Diogenes @ 34 - yes.  because what's done cannot be undone.  he's the prez and that's not going to change - until  Jan. 20, 2013 or until impeachment & removal.  grousing about "he's not legitimate in the first place!!!" is just not helpful.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 19, 2010 10:23 PM (Pm5H

To be fair, this is a completely unexplored area of law. If it can be proven that he does not meet the requirements to hold office, (Article 2, Section 5, US Constitution.) then some allege that all his acts are null and void. I do not presume to know How this would play out, but I do know that reversing as many of his acts as possible would be a reasonable thing to do.

This is simply strange waters legally.

64 Fun Fact: They stuffed Nelson's body into a barrel of rum until they could get it back to England. That's why Pusser's Rum is called "Nelson's Blood." Posted by: Thomas Jefferson Airplane at August 19, 2010 10:31 PM

I thought about stuffing my body in a barrel of rum once. Pusser's was too expensive. So were all other brands.

Thank God for Valu-Rite!

65 I would like one state to say that they have to see the birth certificate, which I do think exists, so that all the money he's wasted protecting the information on it--either single mother, muslim religion or caucasian race--was wasted. I just hate to see this scumbag get away with it.

66 42 Diogenes @ 34 and by all means, persuade state legislatures to make stricter requirements for who gets on the ballot in 2012.  i'm all for that.  haven't a couple of states already done that? 

Posted by: chemjeff at August 19, 2010 10:24 PM (Pm5H

To my knowledge, several state legislatures are attempting it, but so far I've heard of no success from anywhere. That IS the method that I would advocate to limit any further damage.

67 There's some similarity to the battle of Stalingrad.
The Germans keep steam rolling over the Russians then found themselves mire in a battle with a opponent determined to stop them.
The German army impaled itself in Stalingrad the Dems impaled themselves on President Vacation.

68 If it can be proven that he does not meet the requirements to hold office, (Article 2, Section 5, US Constitution.)

...then it DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER.

69 @diogeneslamp,

Wow. Just...wow.  Keep digging at this one, and you'll be lumped in with the fucking loons who believe in Area 51 and how Elvis is really alive and the space program was just a big fake and the Jews made up the holocaust and....

70 Though I was amused to see the poll a couple of weeks ago that had only 42% of Americans 'sure' he was born in Hawaii. 

Posted by: Methos at August 19, 2010 10:07 PM (aN5sE)

There have been a few polls done about the eligibility issue over the past year and a half and they all showed that most Americans think that the outstanding questions should be answered by the Indonesian.  I kept telling people this, but they didn't believe me.  For some reason, many got the idea that the issue was toxic. 

The idea that all of this simple, yet important, information was kept covered up, for no reason whatsoever, irks most people.  The same was true of those bullshit "no standing" rulings.  Even some lefties showed worry that they were making a mockery of the judicial processes, as Jonathan Turley had argued, as no one seemed to have standing to challenge a simple Constitutional point about the most powerful office in the land that should have been easy to resolve in two seconds - since all of the relevant information was supposed to be checked and verified before the Indonesian was ever allowed into the dem primary.

71 It is NOT retarded. It was just declared so, first by our enemies, then shortly thereafter by many of our allies.

--------------------

It's been Snopsed to death. Your unshakeable emotional investment in it does not alter the facts.

It's moot anyway, because Barry's not going to run in '12. Presidentin' is too hard. Hillary gets the nomination and loses when blacks go the "conservative purist" route and stay home to pout.

72 From your post to the ears of the head of the RNC.

One can wish.

73 German army impaled itself in Stalingrad the Dems impaled themselves on President Vacation.

Yep, make Ogabe an albatross around their necks.  If they support him, they lose, if they distance themselves, internal dissent grows among the faithful.  Its a win-win no matter how it plays out.

74
Can't we take all the Obama-birthers and the Trig-birthers and put them in a huge Thunderdome-style fight-to-the-death cage match? And then when we get down to the last person standing, we just drop a big damn Daisy Cutter on his head and be done with it?

75 Can't get that rum in my state.

76 67 President Vacation

That one can stick!  Who takes six vacations in 1 Summer?

77 44 It was a stroke of dumb luck for Obama to get McCain as an opponent.

McCain was shoved down the country's throat by the media and vote fraud.

Posted by: Beto at August 19, 2010 10:24 PM (H+LJc)

I disagree. The slew of candidates made McCain's choice inevitable. The BEST candidate would have been Fred Thompson. He made the mistake of waiting too long to announce, and then acting like he would accept the coronation if they gave it to him. That was a tactical mistake.

Mitt Romney wouldn't have worked because he was from Massachusetts and people don't really trust North Eastern Republicans anymore, plus his Mormon Religion makes some regions of the country nervous.

Mike Huckabee couldn't have won any body but the die hard Religious/Social conservatives, and would have been Useless in a State that really mattered like Florida or Ohio.

Pawlenty didn't have the Carisma, and I forget who else ran, but at the time I didn't seen any of them being viable. No, John McCain was the best choice of what we had to work with, but nobody knew he wasn't born in the USA when they voted in the Primary.

78 hey Tibbsy i'm with you

79 From your post to the ears of the head of the RNC.

Fuck the RNC - ignore them.  They want to strategize and play nice, we need breserkers with a blood lust. 

80 I kind of liked the way the Mongols took care of the Persians.  There are fields that still lay fallow, to this day.

And all the Mongols had wanted to do was trade with them and make everyone richer.  But, no.

81 Steal needs to be resigned.

82 Who takes six vacations in 1 Summer?

Nero?  (while Rome was burning)

83 Damn.  Screwed up #74.  Col. Tibbets was the alias I used in the earlier thread when I said :

Voters = The Enola Gay

Democrats = Hiroshima

My apologies...

84 New dem attack ad theme song - Vacation, by the GoGo's.

85 Let the RNC Rhinos put out the fires. Others could at least set them.

86 Who takes six vacations in 1 Summer? You know, the Aztecs invented the vacation.

87 My apologies...

Posted by: Original Mikey at August 19, 2010 10:43 PM (Av4L9)

Accepted.  That was a silly post.

88 #74

From your mouth to God's ear.

89 #75

You poor bastard. Life sucks sometimes.

90 Seek and create chaos and confusion, and profit from it because you're better prepared for fighting in that situation than the opposition.

Little Bill Daggett: You just shot an unarmed man.
Bill Munny: He should have armed himself if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend.

91 That one can stick!  Who takes six vacations in 1 Summer?

Posted by: zmdavid at August 19, 2010 10:41 PM (LIm6j)

Gotta do something with my nearly $800k and 20 weeks off!

92 ""They want to strategize and play nice, we need breserkers with a blood lust. ""


you rang?

93

60: Infiltrating their campaign headquarters as a "volunteer" might turn up a treasure trove of exploitable information.

That happens to be a federal crime.  So only lefties and reporters (but I repeat myself) can get away with it.

94 Look, the mofo was born in Hawaii.  why the hell would his 18 year old mother go to the trouble to fake shit?  And when you start talking about how strange it was that she was traveling 15 days later, you sound like Excitable Andi.

Focus on the fact that he's got a room-temperature IQ if you want to get anywhere.

The only way Obama's laws are going away is by way of repeal.  Even if you are right, and everything he did was invalid, Biden would sign them and we're right back where we started.  And still with the crooks, liars, and idiots running Congress.

Obama's birthplace could not be more irrelevant.

95 58 Diogenes, what I meant was we're already getting the benefit we're going to get from that issue.  Folks who have soured on Obama have done so to the point that they're expressing doubts on his basic legitimacy to pollsters as the best 'FU' they can come up with.  Which will drive the libs crazy.  And lead them to make mistakes.

Posted by: Methos at August 19, 2010 10:32 PM (aN5sE)

I don't know about that. "Laughter rocks the Highest throne." So I think stirring up doubt about his legitimacy is a good tactic. There is a bumper sticker out there that I like. "Don't blame me, I voted for the American!"

Apart from that, Shouldn't our military know for sure they are to follow the lawful orders of their lawful Commander, or wonder if they are being misused by an usurper?  It sows dissension and doubt in the ranks. Obama ought to have a duty to reassure our troops that he's legit.  

96 My God, this is a smart military blog after all! I thought it was just some place to talk about Palin's vajajay

97 61 diogenes: at this point, it does not fucking matter where obama was born. 

Posted by: chemjeff, fluorine fan at August 19, 2010 10:33 PM (Pm5H

It never did. The meaning of Article II, Section 5 of the US Constitution says "Natural Born Citizen." Subsequent research on this issue has demonstrated that this means having Parents who themselves are Citizens. If Barack Obama Sr. is truly Barack Jr's Father, he cannot qualify no matter where he was born. Unfortunately, people nowadays are too ignorant to know this. Everyone is stuck on 14th amendment citizenship, which is not the same thing.

98 Only thing we are missing is some Joo hating Paulophiles.

99 diogenes: UR NOT HELPING

100 Obama's birthplace could not be more irrelevant.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 10:47 PM (y05cf)

That is not the eligibility issue.  I can't believe that people STILL act as if they don't understand this. 

But, in any event, it's not even a question of eligibility at this point, but transparency and honesty, especially with respect to minor bits of information that all of us have had to cough up at one time or another for minor positions that had no such legal requirement, unlike the Presidency.  People understand those points very well.  It irks them.

The only ones who have a problem are those who think they will be called names and laughed at for demanding anything.  But, they are wrong.  The only ones calling names and laughing at people like me, are the MFM and some people on the right who are scared of G-d knows what.

101 What's all this Trafalgar nonsense and who is Nelson?  This is clearly the Admiral Ackbar strategy from the Battle of Endor!!

102 It's a trap!!!

103 screw the birth certificate, I want to see his college transcripts.  No way in hell this turd is the smartest president eva!

104 Battle School,  The enemy's gate is DOWN.

105 We can use birthers as sappers to dig under the castle. And we can use treachery and deception to bypass their defenses. All while we construct our massive siege engine to crumble the walls.

106 65 I would like one state to say that they have to see the birth certificate, which I do think exists, so that all the money he's wasted protecting the information on it--either single mother, muslim religion or caucasian race--was wasted. I just hate to see this scumbag get away with it.

Posted by: dagny at August 19, 2010 10:35 PM (5kWO/)

Did you see the statements by the fellow who was a former Election official in Hawaii? He claims to have had access to Hawaii's database, and he claims to have looked at the available information regarding Barack Obama's Birth certificate. He claims that there were NO RECORDS of a long form Birth certificate for Barack Obama. He further claims that everyone that handles such records is fully aware that there IS no real birth certificate for Obama.

107

Don't worry -- Admiral Scheer Steele has a sound plan of battle.

108 68 If it can be proven that he does not meet the requirements to hold office, (Article 2, Section 5, US Constitution.)

...then it DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER.

Posted by: chemjeff, fluorine fan at August 19, 2010 10:36 PM (Pm5H

It matters greatly. If he's an Usurper, Every order to our troops is invalid. Israel might strike Iran soon, and it would behoove us to join this fight. Unfortunately we are in the position of being stalemated by "President Wonder." (Wonder if he's really President.) 

109 And Yet, so many people keep denouncing the "Birther" issue. all mud sticks, the best part is that people that slung it were fringe or Democrats.

110 It never did. The meaning of Article II, Section 5 of the US Constitution says "Natural Born Citizen." Subsequent research on this issue has demonstrated that this means having Parents who themselves are Citizens. If Barack Obama Sr. is truly Barack Jr's Father, he cannot qualify no matter where he was born. Unfortunately, people nowadays are too ignorant to know this. Everyone is stuck on 14th amendment citizenship, which is not the same thing.

If your interpretation of "Natural Born Citizen" is correct, then recursively there is no such thing as a natural born citizen.  I don't think the founders would make such a simple mistake.

This requirement was put there to prevent someone loyal to the Crown from becoming President.

111 Dude, I'd love to believe every word you say is gospel. But I got a problem with your cultural paradigm mismatch. You've got one bunch of corrupt crony-capitalists in Imam Barack Hoover Obamber and company, going against the same culture expressed in the wizards of smart at the NRCC and NRSC who gave big money to Scozzafava and Crist. The only way for your cultural paradigm to work is if the Tea Party flash-mob can crystallize into the dominant force in the GOP. We've got to work like hell to effect this cultural paradigm shift, because the Rs in Washington would rather lose like McCain than win like Reagan.

112

You might want to avoid the felony grade stuff.      Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 19, 2010 10:23 PM (foYrR)

It's only a felony if they catch ya.

113 Ebola's BC wouldn't necessarily upend his first term, but it sure would cancel a second term. Fortunately, in a sense, Ebola is making his BC moot. He is such a major fuck-up he is sure to join the Jimmy Carter Club.

114 69 @diogeneslamp,

Wow. Just...wow.  Keep digging at this one, and you'll be lumped in with the fucking loons who believe in Area 51 and how Elvis is really alive and the space program was just a big fake and the Jews made up the holocaust and....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 10:37 PM (LH6ir)

You do not know me. You do not know what research I and others have done regarding this issue. In fact, You do not know what the FUCK you are talking about. You are IGNORANT of information (Founders Documents, English Law, Laws of the Colonies, Legal Precedent, The Naturalization Act of 1791, etc.)

You are buying into the Assertions of the other ASSES of Politics and the Media without bothering to find out what the facts are.

Do you know who signed the Certification that Barack Obama Met the requirements to run for President? NANCY FUCKING PELOSI! She signed the documents for 49 states. The only state which had a different document which SHE DID NOT SIGN was Hawaii.

Now HOW did Nancy Pelosi know Barack Met the requirements of Article II, Section 5? (notwithstanding the fact that the vast bulk of the population doesn't even know what that means, and least of all a moron like Nancy Pelosi.)

She DIDN'T know. She just signed them anyway. 

Pardon me if I don't accept Nancy Pelosi's ignorant assed word about something, and Pardon me if I don't think a computer fucking printout is proof of anything. Someone who presumes to lead the fucking country should not be allowed to play stupid assed silly games with the proof of his qualifications.

Apart from that, You have got to be some FUCKING ASSHOLE to invoke Nazi Death camps and the Holocaust into this discussion. You aren't a dildo, you're an assplug for a nuetered transvestite with AIDS.

115
It's been Snopsed to death. Your unshakeable emotional investment in it does not alter the facts.

It's moot anyway, because Barry's not going to run in '12. Presidentin' is too hard. Hillary gets the nomination and loses when blacks go the "conservative purist" route and stay home to pout.

Posted by: schizuki at August 19, 2010 10:38 PM (Xd9fe)

Snopes.com is run by Democrat Hacks.(A Husband and Wife if I remember correctly.)  Google it. I wouldn't believe them if they said the sky was blue. They are just another couple of assholes with opinions and a website. They don't know nuthin.

116 74
Can't we take all the Obama-birthers and the Trig-birthers and put them in a huge Thunderdome-style fight-to-the-death cage match? And then when we get down to the last person standing, we just drop a big damn Daisy Cutter on his head and be done with it?

Posted by: Col. Paul Tibbets at August 19, 2010 10:40 PM (Av4L9)

The Trig-birth shit is irrelevant regardless of what the truth is, and it is only an ignorant asshole that would equate the two issues.

Whether or not Obama is qualified to be President is an issue that an entire epoch of nationwide misery will hang on, and I am thunderstruck at how many people want to trivialize it.

117 I don't know about Imam O's birthplace, but I totally buy the multiple SS# story. Mooching the system, the communist way.

118

New Hamshire's SOS last I read was the only one who is going forward as to why the Certification to run for POTUS for the state of NH does not contain the words "natural born citizen". There is a difference between what the DNC signed, and what the DNC send to the state.  Cannot remember what website kept track of all this, but they did.

this is actually very true.  usually each state's SOS just takes the DNC's word as to the qualifications of a candidate of their party, same goes for RNC.

For Mccain, he produced his BC, it was verified by 3 independent sources and a judge.  It was about that time, there was a bill sponsored by the fraud and Claire Mcshaskill about allowing Mccain to be able to run for POTUS, wouldn't be surprised if there was some nonsense put in by the fraud to cover his lies.  Fortunately, Bush being in the WH never signed this.

Frankly, I don't know one or another, but its very very odd for someone to spend 2 million a year to hide something little kids have to show to enroll in school across this country.

 

119 eman - maybe thats the plan, get so toxic he bows out - not having to revisit the BC issue in front of a bunhc of Red State legislatures. But, my tin foil hat is itchy.

120 @DiogenesLamp -

OK, say you prove he's not a citizen.  Then what?

All the acts he signed are nullified?  OK, within an hour of President Biden being sworn in, they are all back in place like nothing happened.

And you're right back at square one, except worse.  Because now you've made Barry into a martyr for the cause.

121

Cry havoc!  And loose the...

Oooh, shinny!

122 sorry charlie, crap from WierdNetDaily does not pass muster at a Smart Military Blog.  Try again later, like, say, the sixth Tuesday of next week.  Seriously.

123 "Subsequent research on this issue has demonstrated that this means having Parents who themselves are Citizens"

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

WRONG

Thanks for playing.

If you want to point to some 'subsequent research' on what the constitution means, you better be able to point to the actual constitution or an amendment.   Whatever immigration law that applied to 18 year old girls in the 1960s doesn't amend the constitution.  Obama was born here, he is a born citizen.  This is natural citizenship, as opposed to the immigration type.  It's cut and dry and we've understood that section of the constitution for centuries.  It means born a citizen.  Applies to John Mccain too, btw.

I was kinda a birther too, for a bit, but I did my due diligence and became an ex birther pretty fucking quickly because he was born in Hawaii and the law is extremely clear.  You don't get to change the eligibility for president with anything short of a constitutional amendment, and what's already there is plain.

124

I think for 2012, just one state needs to not take the DNC's word of certification. That one state can say, we have a law that any citizen running for a national has to show their BC, or naturalization papers (since only the P and VP  positions have to be natural born citizens), in addition for all voters to show id.

Apparently, there are noncitizens running for offices as well, this will flush everyone fake out.

125 94 Look, the mofo was born in Hawaii.  why the hell would his 18 year old mother go to the trouble to fake shit?  And when you start talking about how strange it was that she was traveling 15 days later, you sound like Excitable Andi.

Focus on the fact that he's got a room-temperature IQ if you want to get anywhere.

Obama's birthplace could not be more irrelevant.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 10:47 PM (y05cf)

Well, I don't presume to know the truth. The fact that she was on Mercer Island 15 days after he was born suggests she might have been there or nearby all along. (no traveling necessary) A phone call to Grandmother would have been all that was necessary to get her to fill out the paperwork.

It is of course speculation, but how the hell are we supposed to know the truth without trying to figure it out? 

And if his birthplace is irrelevant, why doesn't he produce the proof? You know, a document signed by a WITNESS that he was born in Hawaii? 

It seems like the issue is highly relevant or he wouldn't be trying to finesse it.

126 Did we Neslon ourselves?

127 @Diogeneslamp,

I like it when you get all puffed up like a budgie during its courtship ritual.

As for your arguments? Eh. By the way, improving your reading comprehension will help tremendously. For instance; I didn't "invoke Nazi death camps." I suggested that you are as dumb as the holocaust deniers. It's a bit different, but thank you for proving my point. And your tortured defense of your "research," without actually providing citations of actual facts, rather than blithering idiot conspiracy blog posts doesn't help your argument at all. It just makes me think less of you, and that's a tough thing to accomplish!

If you want a more intelligent view of this issue, read "progressoverpeace" at comment #100 for some interesting opinions.

Oh, I'm not sure that you understand my "CharlieBrown'sDildo" name. It's a joke. I'm not really Charlie Brown's dildo.

128

I'm really loosing patience with Republicans that defend Obama's "right" not to produce his actual birth certificate.

Regardless of why, Obama won't willingly do it, and that should be a signal to everyone that there is SOMETHING in that documant he does not want you to see.

In essence he has spent millions keeping that from public scrutiny; doesn't that make you just the least bit curious?

129 99 diogenes: UR NOT HELPING

Posted by: chemjeff, fluorine fan at August 19, 2010 10:52 PM (Pm5H

In your opinion. Some people want to accept Liars words for truth. I assume that with a liar, you can never be sure without proof.

Reminds me of the story about one of Roosevelt's Cabinet officials who was said to be very distrustful. On a train ride they stopped along a farm, and one of his colleagues remarked, "The sheep in the field appear to be shorn." To which the Distrustful Cabinet official replied, "Well, on this side at least. "  

130 Some of the Dem-Commie elites may be sailors, but the bulk of them are light infantry. We need to hold them by the nose and kick them in the tail. We need to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We need to blot out utterly their memories from the face of the earth. We need to pray for the day when they shall be shot on sight with cheap ammo from long range without tricky windage. We need to send any survivors back under their rocks until some remote and ineffectual but logically possible Ork renaissance.

131 My guess has always been that Obama's scared because the BC says he's a Muslim. Cat's out of the bag now though, might as well just show us the damn thing and be done with it.

132 _{*pointing at Dems after big losses in Nov.*}

Hah hah!

133 #131

Jim in San Diego,

I'm not sure that any of us are defending Obama. I think it's more of a "move on; nothing's going to happen with this line of inquiry" sort of thing.

But your points are valid. Of course there is something being hidden. Is it that he is illegitimate? Maybe. Or maybe daddy isn't really his daddy. Or maybe it's a head fake to shift our attention away from something more important. Who knows?

134 103 screw the birth certificate, I want to see his college transcripts.  No way in hell this turd is the smartest president eva!

Posted by: Dunkirk at August 19, 2010 10:57 PM (ZkQ3p)

In his book, he admitted that he wasn't a very good student. While at columbia, a photographer took pictures of him smoking what looks like weed, and appearing to be high. He got into Harvard on affirmative action, then did the minimum necessary to get by. He's not a genius. If he were white, he'd be a nobody.

135 Yes, we know that Obama is a fucking liar.  We also know that some on our side are just plain fucking crazy.  Thank you, Diogenes, for reminding us of that.

136 Jim - did it ever occur to you that he does it to keep the birthers frothing so he and the MFM (BIRM) can use them to discredit all Republicans and conservatives by association? Remember, for Democrats politics is a blood sport.

137 Truther.

138 I was kinda a birther too, for a bit, but I did my due diligence and became an ex birther pretty fucking quickly because he was born in Hawaii and the law is extremely clear.  You don't get to change the eligibility for president with anything short of a constitutional amendment, and what's already there is plain.

Posted by: Da Death Panels! at August 19, 2010 11:25 PM (dUOK+)

That sounds more like due indulgence.  You have things terribly wrong.  You don't seem to understand the eligibility issue, at all.

139 You got it from Hatchet Five! We need to lose in order to avoid losing! Biatch.

140
If your interpretation of "Natural Born Citizen" is correct, then recursively there is no such thing as a natural born citizen.  I don't think the founders would make such a simple mistake.

This requirement was put there to prevent someone loyal to the Crown from becoming President.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 11:02 PM (y05cf)

The founders exempted themselves. Article II reads:

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

141 Obama ought to have a duty to reassure our troops that he's legit. 

---------------------

No one is obligated to reassure anyone of the non-veracity of conspiracy theories. If I said you ran a ring of child sex slaves, would you be obligated to reassure neighborhood Moms you don't? If someone claimed to be a prison guard and said he saw your rap sheet, would you be obligated to prove he didn't? Or would he be obligated to prove he did?

Again, this has been Snopsed. Look it up.

But you won't believe that. You wouldn't believe a home movie of the birth, shot with a Honolulu beach in a window in the background.

Slow it down... There! There's a second uterus behind a grassy knoll in Indonesia!

That's the last I'll engage you in this. It's like talking to George Noory about alien moonbases. Arguing facts and reason with conspirazoids is like arguing evolution with Mike Huckabee. Pointless.

142 @progressoverpeace,

#142

Please to explain? (And use small words for Diogenes' benefit).

143 O/T: The big bad CIA responsible for Mossadeq's death in the 50's?

Guess again.

"The CIA's role in Mossadeq's demise was largely inconsequential. The institution most responsible for aborting Iran's democratic interlude was the clerical estate, and the Islamic Republic should not be able to whitewash the clerics culpability. "

(via Ledeen)

144 115
Ebola's BC wouldn't necessarily upend his first term, but it sure would cancel a second term.

Fortunately, in a sense, Ebola is making his BC moot. He is such a major fuck-up he is sure to join the Jimmy Carter Club.

Posted by: eman at August 19, 2010 11:07 PM (Nw/hR)

You could be right. I don't know. Like I said, these are uncharted waters legally.

145

frankly, I agree, the repubs in congress need to do nothing and they really cannot do anything. Only one state needs to pass that they will not take a political party's word about a candidate's qualification, the SOS of that state has to see it and approve it. Nothing will come of this for this time around, but for 2012, it can be implemented.   Not qualified?  No name on the state ballot.  Would seem pretty odd not to have a candidate's name on only 49 of  50 states.

146 The Joos did 911.

147 You know, this has got me to thinking - did John McCain ever provide his birth certificate? Maybe we can have a do-over!

148 Of course there is something being hidden. Is it that he is illegitimate? Maybe. Or maybe daddy isn't really his daddy. Or maybe it's a head fake to shift our attention away from something more important. Who knows?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:33 PM (LH6ir)

And that is why we need to press the issue. The best case result for Obama is that there is no there there.

The worst case is that it is something that gets him impeached, or at least permanently branded toxic one-termer. I just do not see a down-side for our side on this issue. If it really is something serious, keeping it from public view will consume more and more of his time and attention and that will eventually detract from his effectiveness as a politico.

Face it, the guy is marginal at best. If we an rattle him just a little, it might just be the golden straw, when combined with other (perhaps more substantive) issues.

Death by a thousand cuts.

149 There is story there, somebody will write a great book someday - Why list a lefty profs house instead of your own or parents?, FM Davis?, Hawaii's wacky laws, etc. I can't see a path forwards until 2012 primaries, but the wound continues to weep and the implications graw at his numbers. If someone has a knockout bit of evidence, it needs to be saved until his numbers are so low that he can't pull a primetime mea culpa.

150

How much money has been spent to date, from the dems or others(US) to defend this continual court battle?

The whole thing, idea has been sued. No Standing has been the excuse.

Where do we stand, and when does it matter ?

I vote.

That means I have a Standing no?

151 Jim - did it ever occur to you that he does it to keep the birthers frothing so he and the MFM (BIRM) can use them to discredit all Republicans and conservatives by association?

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 11:35 PM (y05cf)

LOL.  This has always been the most hysterical and ridiculous theory.  Tell me who has EVER been discredited for expressing a desire to have all the information (which is necessary to establish the Indonesian Imbecile's eligibility) made public or presented in court?  Who?

You people are scared of shadows.

152 122 @DiogenesLamp -

OK, say you prove he's not a citizen.  Then what?

All the acts he signed are nullified?  OK, within an hour of President Biden being sworn in, they are all back in place like nothing happened.

And you're right back at square one, except worse.  Because now you've made Barry into a martyr for the cause.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 11:22 PM (y05cf)

It wouldn't be President Biden. The Electors elected Barack, and Barack chose Biden. If Barack is not legit, Biden is not legit either.

Again, strange legal waters, but some have suggested that McCain would have to take over as the only qualified candidate.

Apart from that, taking a principled stand sometimes means having to deal with unpleasant consequences.

153 Back to the "connections" links from last night, or at least that idea, another major advantage the British had was their medical service - scurvy was treatable and more importantly preventable by Trafalgar, and doctors had introduced sanitation to the Navy - by the battle, the British vastly "out-healthed" the French and Spaniards.

Their crews were more energetic and more of them ready for duty.

So, the message is clear - feed liberals junk food and don't remind them to wash.

154 140 Jim - did it ever occur to you that he does it to keep the birthers frothing so he and the MFM (BIRM) can use them to discredit all Republicans and conservatives by association?

Remember, for Democrats politics is a blood sport.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 11:35 PM (y05cf)

It occurred to me for about five seconds. If he were THAT hyper-competent there would be other signs of his competency. He skates by because of his skin color and lack of a "Negro-dialect" while knowing how to behave in a suit.

155 @Jim in San Diego,

Mallamutt at #137 makes the salient point. Obama has bigger problems than his birth certificate! It's a distraction at this point. I'll even stipulate that there may be  more to it than it seems. But...so what? What will it get us that an evisceration of the dems in November won't?

156 That would make me president.

157 123

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 19, 2010 11:12 PM (eVJ7T)

Now that is a great example of how to win friends and influence people.

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 19, 2010 11:22 PM (OWjjx)

If someone asserts that you are a nutjob that believes in Area 51, Elvis, and insinuates you are a holocaust denier, I don't give a flying fuck about being friends with them. As far as i'm concerned, that's over the line.

158 That happens to be a federal crime.

Cite the statute.  If you're doing do legit volunteer work for someone, and happen to overhear something, I find it hard to believe that's a crime.

159 The worst case is that it is something that gets him impeached, Posted by: Jim in San Diego

There is no way in hell Congress would impeach him. The courts would not touch it either.

It's fantasy that Obama would suffer any legal penalty. So, hey, how about that border? Or the economy? Or the EPA's rulings? Or about 3 dozen other things that are actual issues the voters care about?

No birth cert in the world is going to bring down a 16% unemployment rate.

160 #162

No assertion at all. I can prove it. But the documents are in the control of the SOS of Hawaii, and there is a conspiracy to keep them hidden.

161 Area 51 is real. It is the command center where the Joos control the world from.

162 Please to explain? (And use small words for Diogenes' benefit).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:38 PM (LH6ir)

I really don't feel like going through it all, for the 5000th time.  This issue has been gone over in great depth so many times that I am amazed that there are conservatives who don't know every aspect of it - whether they agree or not.  Go search my posts on this site or Hotair.  Throw in "eligibility", "multiple citizenship", "natural born citizen" and you should easily get any number of posts where I explained the issue in great detail.  The Hotair eligibility threads have the whole argument laid out quite nicely and extensively, by myself, diogenes, Romeo, and others.

163 #166

Sshhhh!

164 <i>With 20+% of the public willing to believe Ogabe is a muslim, it seems clear that a whole suite of attacks that might have been considered marginal in the past, might just fly this year.</i>

"Live not by lies."
-- Solzhenitsyn

165 Nelson didn't load his cannons with pop-out flags that said "BOOM!"

It worked pretty well for Bugs Bunny.

166

sorry charlie, crap from WierdNetDaily does not pass muster at a Smart Military Blog.  Try again later, like, say, the sixth Tuesday of next week.  Seriously.

Posted by: Hatchet Five at August 19, 2010 11:24 PM (pyi1D)

I had Joseph Farrah-slacks on my show today ripping on Ann (Adam's Apple) Coulter.

And what are you-- a gefilte fish? So you never had an egg cream? That's no excuse for being a fan of the big fat golfer. He'll die young anyway because he's never read my book on herbal healing.

Why do you feel good about being such a schmuck?

167 because the Rs in Washington would rather lose like McCain than win like Reagan.

Ignore them.  As Tip O'Neill said, "all politics is local".  All it takes is one intrepid soul searching local county records to turn up something that will be a headshot.  The media ain't gonna do it, and the crew in Washington doesn't bother to drill down that far for house races.

168 You know, this has got me to thinking - did John McCain ever provide his birth certificate?

Posted by: schizuki at August 19, 2010 11:40 PM (Xd9fe)

The Senate conducted an anal probe of McCain and his documents and then declared him Constitutionally eligible (which is not in the Senate's power, but hey, details).  The Indonesian Imbecile was one of the co-sponsors of the non-binding Senate resolution declaring McCain to be eligible.

169 Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

WRONG

Thanks for playing.

If you want to point to some 'subsequent research' on what the constitution means, you better be able to point to the actual constitution or an amendment.   Whatever immigration law that applied to 18 year old girls in the 1960s doesn't amend the constitution.  Obama was born here, he is a born citizen.  This is natural citizenship, as opposed to the immigration type.  It's cut and dry and we've understood that section of the constitution for centuries.  It means born a citizen.  Applies to John Mccain too, btw.

I was kinda a birther too, for a bit, but I did my due diligence and became an ex birther pretty fucking quickly because he was born in Hawaii and the law is extremely clear.  You don't get to change the eligibility for president with anything short of a constitutional amendment, and what's already there is plain.

Posted by: Da Death Panels! at August 19, 2010 11:25 PM (dUOK+)

I don't believe you. I think you are a fucking liar. Had you DONE any research, you could not have come to those conclusions. I mention the Naturalization act of 1791 because it shows the intent and meaning of the Same congress that RATIFIED the US Constitution.

You assert that being born here is the same thing as Natural Born Citizen. It is not. You are referring to 14th Amendment Citizenship, which ignorant people mistakenly think repeals Article II natural born citizenship. It does not.

I've read American History and documents on this issue for the last year, sometimes until I could no longer see from having eye strain. I've Read Jefferson, Washington, Madison, John Jay, Vatell,  Blackstone, The Civil rights Act of 1866, Justice Joseph Story, English Common Law, etc. 

Sell it to someone else.

170 "Live not by lies."

A marginal attack doesn't have to be a lie, and indeed shouldn't.  I'm thinking personal revelations, like was done to Ryan in Illinois.  Republicans have kinda shied away from the total war concept in the past.

That time is over.

171 127

I think for 2012, just one state needs to not take the DNC's word of certification. That one state can say, we have a law that any citizen running for a national has to show their BC, or naturalization papers (since only the P and VP  positions have to be natural born citizens), in addition for all voters to show id.

Apparently, there are noncitizens running for offices as well, this will flush everyone fake out.

Posted by: johnc_recent_EX-dem at August 19, 2010 11:26 PM (ACkhT)

For sure! A lot of people overlook the fact that a bonafide foreigner who was not even an American citizen had previously gotten on the ballot in many states. I forget his name. (too much information to try and remember.)

172 164 The worst case is that it is something that gets him impeached, Posted by: Jim in San Diego

There is no way in hell Congress would impeach him. The courts would not touch it either.

It's fantasy that Obama would suffer any legal penalty. So, hey, how about that border? Or the economy? Or the EPA's rulings? Or about 3 dozen other things that are actual issues the voters care about?

No birth cert in the world is going to bring down a 16% unemployment rate.

Posted by: Garbonzo the Garrulous at August 19, 2010 11:47 PM (oL8lS)

There is no way THIS Congress would impeach him. The next congress could look very different. As far as 16% unemployment is concerned, I can't see how additional doubts about him could possibly help the dems.

We only need to knock 3% from his all-time high in November 2008 and put those numbers in our column to make him a looser.

173 Never fight fair when you are fighting for your life.

174 Did someone say Total War?

175

"England (expects) every man to do his duty."

I can see the case for predetermination. But the preponderance of first-rate ships on the Frogs and Dons side, and the hour the English got pounded without being able to return fire makes this almost a miracle. 

I don't care how great your your rate of fire is if you can't bring your guns to bear. The courage of the English reminds me of Waterloo.  The adage that all one has to do is stand until you can't stand it anymore, and then take one more volley.

 

 

176

I remember on the fraud's 2008 website, it said he was a "native born citizen".

I didnt think much of it at the time, but I thought it was odd.

I guess, I am not a birther, but I cannot say 100% that the fraud is eligible, mainly because he had hidden and spends so much money continuing to hide basic information from the American public.

He's spent over 2 million per year hiding his BC, college records, everything.  Anyone who has applied for job has to reveal so much, I just find it so strange, why hide things if there is nothing to hide?

177

the same as it ever was,,,the same as,,,

dont tell me montgomery, i allready know.

178 A lot of people overlook the fact that a bonafide foreigner who was not even an American citizen had previously gotten on the ballot in many states. I forget his name. (too much information to try and remember.)

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 19, 2010 11:55 PM (eVJ7T)

Roger Calero. 

Born in Nicaragua.

In the US on a green card - a friggin' green card!!

He was on the Presidential ballot in 6 states, including New Jersey, where D'Onofrio filed his case.

179
As for your arguments? Eh. By the way, improving your reading comprehension will help tremendously. For instance; I didn't "invoke Nazi death camps." I suggested that you are as dumb as the holocaust deniers.

Yes, I can see they are entirely unconnected.



It's a bit different, but thank you for proving my point. And your tortured defense of your "research," without actually providing citations of actual facts, rather than blithering idiot conspiracy blog posts doesn't help your argument at all. It just makes me think less of you, and that's a tough thing to accomplish!


You want Cites? Tell me where to send them. I'm tired of trying to post fucking links on this website. I am sick of having to transfer them all through "tinyurl.com"  I'll do one though.

http://tinyurl.com/mmrr6v



If you want a more intelligent view of this issue, read "progressoverpeace" at comment #100 for some interesting opinions.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:29 PM

I have yet to read anything from "progressoverpeace" that I disagreed with. I bet he's got some pretty good cite's on this issue too.

180 The Electors elected Barack, and Barack chose Biden. If Barack is not legit, Biden is not legit either.
----------

Your understanding of the Constitution continues to fail to impress:

"The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President"

Biden met the eligibility requirements. He was elected separately. The eligibility of whomever chose him as a running mate is unconnected and irrelevant.

Meaning that if Biden became President through succession, your crowd would start claiming that he's ineligible because "everyone knows Delaware isn't a real state."

181

"Never mind maneuvers, always go straight at 'em."

182

Wouldn't it be easier just to shoot the Libs and run them through a wood chipper? Cheaper too.

Bio fuel, or something. Fertilizer? They have to be good for something.

183 PA How far back did you see that book at Dollar Tree?

184 I'm not sure that any of us are defending Obama. I think it's more of a "move on; nothing's going to happen with this line of inquiry" sort of thing.

But your points are valid. Of course there is something being hidden. Is it that he is illegitimate? Maybe. Or maybe daddy isn't really his daddy. Or maybe it's a head fake to shift our attention away from something more important. Who knows?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:33 PM (LH6ir)

It doesn't matter what it is. He ought not be allowed to hide it. It should have been a big fucking issue, but the Media played it down and ran interference.  If he want's to be President, he needs to prove his qualifications. Why in hell did so many people give him a pass? 

185 139 Yes, we know that Obama is a fucking liar.  We also know that some on our side are just plain fucking crazy.  Thank you, Diogenes, for reminding us of that.

Posted by: Hatchet Five at August 19, 2010 11:34 PM (pyi1D)

What you may not realize is that the crazy side might be the ones that have wanted to let this asshole get away with this all along. Had they not been so quick to declare him "PROVEN", the issue might have built to the point of capsizing him. Instead of insisting on Proof, everybody said they were satisfied.

THAT's was CRAZY. That IS crazy.

186

" . . . pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our Sacred Honor . . ."

187 "It wouldn't be President Biden. The Electors elected Barack, and Barack chose Biden. If Barack is not legit, Biden is not legit either"

This is completely incorrect.  The President and Vice-President are elected separately, albeit by the same College of Electors.  The idea that "Barack chose Biden" is a simplistic and inaccurate explanation of reality, which is that Obama expressed a wish for Biden to be his VP nominee, and the Democratic Convention honored his wishes.  Biden was a completely legitimate nominee for VP and thus, in the event of BO being removed from office, would definitely be the next President. 

188
I love it when the shit-house lawyers come out a night.

189 When did they get broadband in the big house?

190 140 Jim - did it ever occur to you that he does it to keep the birthers frothing so he and the MFM (BIRM) can use them to discredit all Republicans and conservatives by association?

Remember, for Democrats politics is a blood sport.

Posted by: brian at August 19, 2010 11:35 PM (y05cf)

GEEZE have I heard that so many times! Put that right up there with the "If he had anything to hide, super genius HILLARY would have discovered it."

Yeah, it's all a plot by super genius Barack Obama to keep his opposition off balance. I'd say the fact that so many people thinks he's a Muslim ought to put that theory to bed.

Ever hear of a thing called "Occam's razor"?

He keeps it hidden because he dare not reveal it. Knowingly usurping an office which you know you are not qualified for could be called treason.

191 "Admiral! The French fleet is within range! Shall we run out the guns?"

"Belay that, Lieutenant! I've just received intelligence from reliable sources that Admiral Villeneuve is a bastard, and thus disbarred from service! We have him, sir! Dead to rights! Summon the Solicitor General from London at once!"

192 I love how people who constantly decry the lying "MFM" will just slavishly believe what they're told if Rush and Fox play along.

193

Wouldn't it be easier just to shoot the Libs and run them through a wood chipper? Cheaper too.

Bio fuel, or something. Fertilizer? They have to be good for something.

Soylent Green is moonbats?

194 Wouldn't moonbat be Soylent Pink?

195 Get on to the chem trails and bigfoot, genius.

196 That's the last I'll engage you in this. It's like talking to George Noory about alien moonbases. Arguing facts and reason with conspirazoids is like arguing evolution with Mike Huckabee. Pointless.

Posted by: schizuki at August 19, 2010 11:37 PM (Xd9fe)

I am glad of this, your input is worse than useless.

I contend that those who put their life at risk have the most right to know that their leader is legitimate. Any decent man would reassure the men under his command that he is real. The fact that he plays games does not instill confidence in anyone.

197
Please to explain? (And use small words for Diogenes' benefit).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:38 PM (LH6ir)

Butt plug.

198 What is next thermite?

199

Unless he has a time machine, he was born in Hawaii.  Birth announcement in the paper.

So either he was born in Hawaii, he wasn't born in Hawaii and it was known then that he would be President (and so the records were faked), or he has a time machine, or Occam's Razor applies.~brian

How about:-  He was born in Kenya and his commie mother wanted him to have an  American citizenship so she wired the payment, Western Union,  along with the birth announcement to be printed in a Hawaiian newspaper.  Simple, no time machine necessary.

200

frankly, I agree, the repubs in congress need to do nothing and they really cannot do anything. Only one state needs to pass that they will not take a political party's word about a candidate's qualification, the SOS of that state has to see it and approve it. Nothing will come of this for this time around, but for 2012, it can be implemented.   Not qualified?  No name on the state ballot.  Would seem pretty odd not to have a candidate's name on only 49 of  50 states.

Posted by: johnc_recent_EX-dem at August 19, 2010 11:39 PM (ACkhT)

Amen. Exactly the strategy that I have been championing. We are trying to make it happen in my home state, but so far it's not getting through the legislature.

201 We have the mosque flap handed to us on a silver platter and you effin' dummies decide to cruise down the birther canal.

Great work, noobs.

202
I love how people who constantly decry the lying "MFM" will just slavishly believe what they're told if Rush and Fox play along.

Posted by: peanut gallery at August 20, 2010 12:16 AM (NurK6)

Dittoes.

203 Bigfoot from the grassy knoll  with a thermite cannon, Alex?

204 160 @Jim in San Diego,

Mallamutt at #137 makes the salient point. Obama has bigger problems than his birth certificate! It's a distraction at this point. I'll even stipulate that there may be  more to it than it seems. But...so what? What will it get us that an evisceration of the dems in November won't?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:45 PM (LH6ir)

It MIGHT get his judicial appointments thrown out. I would count that as a win. I honestly don't see the downside of discrediting him on the basis of his qualifications.

205

The stronger meme is not whether Obama is a natural born citizen. Too easily ridiculed. The stronger meme is that he goes out of his way to be deceptive. Goes well with the meme that all the D's are deceptive. They have sowed the doubts themselves. All we have to do is nurture the doubts.

206 There is no way in hell Congress would impeach him. The courts would not touch it either.

It's fantasy that Obama would suffer any legal penalty. So, hey, how about that border? Or the economy? Or the EPA's rulings? Or about 3 dozen other things that are actual issues the voters care about?

No birth cert in the world is going to bring down a 16% unemployment rate.

Posted by: Garbonzo the Garrulous at August 19, 2010 11:47 PM (oL8lS)

I don't presume to know this. Let's hear the truth, and let the chips fall where they may.

207 How about this analogy?

Any other geeks here who like to play Civilization IV?

Well, speaking for myself, after I capture a city, sometimes I get sick of some other army/nation taking it back away from me.  After a couple times of this, I get sick of trying to hold them, and just raze the damn things, no matter how valuable they are, when I advance further.

Similarly, the conservative contendors need to stop compromising and trying to "win over" voters who demand GIMME GIMME GIMME!  and still vote Demotard anyway,

Raze, burn, scorch.  --and no regrets: be true to your conservative lodestar.

208 165 #162

No assertion at all. I can prove it. But the documents are in the control of the SOS of Hawaii, and there is a conspiracy to keep them hidden.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 19, 2010 11:47 PM (LH6ir)

Many a true word is said in jest.

As I have explained countless times, *I* am adopted. There is a conspiracy to keep my original birth records secret. (I actually have a copy of my original birth certificate AND my Current one.)

There is some evidence that Barack was also adopted, (by lolo soetoro in 1967 I think.) if this is indeed the case, why is it so hard to believe that the state isn't conspiring to keep his pre adoption birth certificate a secret as is the normal methodology in adoption cases?

209

13 times i tell you.

fuck off.

210
We have the mosque flap handed to us on a silver platter and you effin' dummies decide to cruise down the birther canal.

Great work, noobs.

Posted by: 13times at August 20, 2010 12:22 AM (h6XiD)

Constantly and relentlessly throwing all sorts of shit against the wall never works in politics.

211 Tell that to ex-president Dukakis.

212 How about:-  He was born in Kenya and his commie mother wanted him to have an  American citizenship so she wired the payment, Western Union,  along with the birth announcement to be printed in a Hawaiian newspaper.  Simple, no time machine necessary.

-------------------

Yeah, because if there's one thing Obama-mama demonstrated throughout her life, it was a capacity for shrewd foresight.

This keeps getting funnier. In a cruel, hockey-helmet and short-bus kind of way.

213 " Nelson sought and thrived on the chaos of the conflict itself relying on that chaos to give his ships advantage."

Chaos always wins because it's better organized.

214 Do you figure they had Western Union in Kenya way back then?

215 "The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President"

Biden met the eligibility requirements. He was elected separately. The eligibility of whomever chose him as a running mate is unconnected and irrelevant.

Meaning that if Biden became President through succession, your crowd would start claiming that he's ineligible because "everyone knows Delaware isn't a real state."

Posted by: schizuki at August 20, 2010 12:04 AM (Xd9fe)

I'll concede the point. However I doubt Biden could survive the uproar. A lot of people would feel like this would be a cheat, and very likely demand his removal. Apart from that, I don't know how the legality of the State elections would play out. It might be possible to make a legal challenge on that basis.

Even so, I think an idiot President Biden couldn't be worse than what we have now.

Even further so, it still overlooks the point of bringing out the truth. Would Barack's Judicial appointees be thrown out?

Who knows?

216
This is completely incorrect.  The President and Vice-President are elected separately, albeit by the same College of Electors.  The idea that "Barack chose Biden" is a simplistic and inaccurate explanation of reality, which is that Obama expressed a wish for Biden to be his VP nominee, and the Democratic Convention honored his wishes.  Biden was a completely legitimate nominee for VP and thus, in the event of BO being removed from office, would definitely be the next President. 

Posted by: HT at August 20, 2010 12:11 AM (on1DJ) 

You are correct. I've already conceded this point earlier. My focus has not been on the consequences of finding the truth, just in asserting that we need to bring it out, regardless of what it is, and what happens as a result.

Again, one could argue that the State elections (which determine who the electors are.) might have legal issues needing to be resolved which would still preclude a President Biden.

If the man wasn't qualified to be on the ballot, then the election of the electors might be called into question.

217 Fluoride?

218 @Speller - intelligence is an inherited trait, and we know that Barack Obama Jr. is a flaming imbecile, and is father was not. So where did he get his stupid from? Mommy. There's no way she was smart enough to fake anything. And her parents can't be terribly smart either. After all, they named her "Stanley", and they let her become a commie. I contend that the people who handle Barack (Axelrod, Emmanuel, etc) are the ones deliberately stoking the fires. At some point, they'll produce the birth certificate, and then they'll say "This proves that the Republican party are a bunch of insane racists and have been all along". Everything Obama has ever achieved in his life was for someone else's benefit. Why not this? Just blocking the guy (Phil Berg?) that attacked the BC issue on Hillary's behalf got them traction against both her and Republicans during the primaries. It's golden.

219 With 20+% of the public willing to believe Ogabe is a muslim... I don't know why, and it's not like I haven't seen that sarcastic "Ogabe" reference before, but that just made me spit out my beer tonight in laughter. Granted, it was my fifth beer, but.... I guess I'm just really enjoying the Ogabe gang bang lately. He sooooo deserves what he's getting! So keep it coming!!

220

Yeah, because if there's one thing Obama-mama demonstrated throughout her life, it was a capacity for shrewd foresight.

This keeps getting funnier. In a cruel, hockey-helmet and short-bus kind of way.~schizuki

Yeah.  What's funny is how much American Leftists like them some welfare and in the '60s you could only get it if you were a citizen.  So, yeah, Stanley Dunham-Obama wanted her boy to be eligible for any and all benefits that acrued to American citizenship.  Not surprising or insightful really. 

221 I have to go. Responsibilities beckon.

222 > 32 Ishtar dinner? What the hell is Darth Rove babbling about? Posted by: FlaviusJulius Iftar dinner. It's a muslim thing. Something to do with Ramadan.

223 Iftar an evening (after dark) dinner to mark the start of Ramadan. Observant Muslims don't eat during the day in Ramadan.

Or they might take the whole month off as vacation. As Barack Hussein Obama is doing, purely by coincidence.

224

-->The stronger meme is not whether Obama is a natural born citizen. Too easily ridiculed.

You are mistaken. The argument is "Dual citizens are not natural born citizens." It is a natural idea, if I may say so, and everyone can understand that. Who would think that a dual citizen could be eligible to be President? I mean, seriously. Obama has already admitted to having been born a British subject and getting Kenyan citizenship when Kenya got its independence about 2 years later.

The question for the court, and it is an important question to get straightened out, is, "Does being a dual citizen, or gaining another citizenship, obviate natural born citizen status?" This is a simple, reasonable, and important question. Nothing can be ridiculed about this.

-->The stronger meme is that he goes out of his way to be deceptive. Goes well with the meme that all the D's are deceptive. They have sowed the doubts themselves. All we have to do is nurture the doubts.

Posted by: Mr. Barky at August 20, 2010 12:27 AM (8k1ET)

But that's exactly what he does in the eligibility issue. He pulls the same exact shit with that (when it should be a simple, quick case) as he does with everything else. The eligibility issue just one more serious problem that he seems to use to antagonize America and flout any law, reason, or plain common sense. It's part of his overall pattern, and very obvious in that.

225 Carrot Man wants to get in on this.

226 Posted by: Mr. Barky at August 20, 2010 12:27 AM (8k1ET)

Oops.  I guess I just knd of aped what you said in that second part.  Sorry.  It's late.

What I meant was that I assume that that larger theme is always around (everyone knows he's an underhanded liar and a very transparent one) and the details of the eligbility question natural fall in with that, as with the details of all the other instances.

227 I read the thread and I agree with Diogenes Lamp.

I have been a life long police officer. I have seen just about every crooked thing you can do with a birth certificate including lying on them (they are not some sworn document) and forging them. The unbelievable lack of proof when there should be so much available defies comprehension. And sinister. I guess we accept Ayers version of events. I mean after all, a fucking terrorist wouldn't lie.

What DL doesn't understand is that Ace almighty has already declared this a dead issue here. To promote it must mean you are insane. DL you have done a remarkable job.

All I want to say is that one day, we will know the truth. That day will come after Obama is removed from office. At that time, whoever needs to... may issue apologies if they have the memory and the balls.

228 The chem trails are involved in the birth certificate some how.

229 The hilarious part is the Libtards referring to Islam as: 1. A Race 2. A religion 3. A set of Laws It is a freaking culture, Exactly how can I be RACIST against a culture? I got it, I can be in the Dar Al-Harb! Which means I am not a Muslim! See how clear that is?

230 Understand this simple thing.

Learn something.
Learn gardening, learn canning.
Learn how to plant, how to harvest.

Learn wildlife trails.  Learn to setup a trot line.

learn to sweep and shoot an open door.
Learn to smelt, learn to ambush deer.
Learn to reload.
Learn that your children depend upon you.
Learn that you are fallible.

Learn to shoot.

RS

231 Admiral Lord Nelson was asleep when his cabin boy knocked on his door and said, "Admiral, sir, wake up! The lookout has spied four French frigates by dawn's first light!" Nelson said, "Very well, then, cabin boy. Fetch me my red doublet." "But sir," said the cabin boy, "the Froggy snipers will see you from a mile away!" "Lad," explained Nelson, "I am not afraid of being shot, but of how the crew would take it to see me wounded. On my red jacket, the blood will not show, so that even if I am to be wounded, the men will not know of it and thus will not lose heart in the heat of battle." The cabin boy nods and leaves but returns almost instantly. "Sir, I misheard the lookout," he said breathlessly. "He spies not four French frigates, but FORTY!" "In that case," Nelson said to the boy, "while you're fetching my red doublet, you'd best bring my brown corduroy trousers as well."

232 I be boarding this thread from the ONT. Yaa-aarrrrrrr!!!!!!

233 36 Point of information: a birth announcement merely say that a family residing at a given address has had a new arrival. It isn't proof of where the birth took place, only where the family was living. I have seen some birth announcements that list hospital of birth but the Honolulu announcements of 1961 didn't include that information. So while Obama may well have been born in Honolulu, the contemporaneous birth announcement in the newspaper isn't solid proof of that.

234 The 2010 FIFA World Cup is right around the corner You might want to update your script, spam-butt.

235

In his book, he admitted that he wasn't a very good student. While at columbia, a photographer took pictures of him smoking what looks like weed, and appearing to be high. He got into Harvard on affirmative action, then did the minimum necessary to get by. He's not a genius. If he were white, he'd be a nobody.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp

If he were white, he'd be a Kennedy.

236 If he were white, he'd be a Kennedy.

Posted by: MrCaniac at August 20, 2010 02:42 AM (aaULJ)

Well he sure can swim.
(mmmmm, glistening moobs pecs)

237 All I want to say is that one day, we will know the truth. That day will come after Obama is removed from office. At that time, whoever needs to... may issue apologies if they have the memory and the balls.
------------------------

So what's the deadline on that revelation before whoever needs to may issue apologies for being tiresome conspirazoids?

------------------------

I have seen just about every crooked thing you can do with a birth certificate including lying on them (they are not some sworn document) and forging them. The unbelievable lack of proof when there should be so much available defies comprehension. And sinister.

------------------------

So how do you know McCain's birth certificate wasn't lied on or forged as well? He was allegedly born in the Panama Canal zone. How do we know Mama McCain wasn't shopping in a market in Panama proper when she dropped him?

Every question you raise about Obama's birth certificate and eligibility can be raised about McCain's.

I'd love to see a poll showing what percentage of birthers are also Kennedy conspirazoids. It seems like a personality issue.

238

Posted by: stuiec at August 20, 2010 02:20 AM (5UP6n)

Thanks bro, that's a keeper.

239 Look, I'm as much a "birther" as anyone else. By "birther",I mean "someone who'd like to see non-forged records of his life, not just the BC". Obviously, that's not gonna happen any time soon. Why do you think they suddenly produced the redacted version of his passport? They think that we (and the public at large) are so stupid that we'll drop all of the legitimate opposition to Obama (Mosque, the many vacations, border, economy, etc etc.) to focus on THAT again. No sale, at this point, Obama's credibility is shattered beyond hope.

240 Cheap Jordan shoes? Heh Heh. That would be cool.

241 Ah Trafalger, the British were outnumbered, and outgunned from the standpoint of the total number of cannon and shot weight. However, they were not outgunned from the practical standpoint.

The British at the time of the battle had switched to the gunlock method of firing naval cannon vs the old burning match from the side. This enabled their strategy that Nelson employed by giving them a much higher rate of fire and more accuracy.

This was one of the harbingers of Western military strategy in which superior weapons act as a force multiplier enabling victory over a large number of opponents.

As for the Democrats:

Their responses to attacks are scripted and rote, its the same responses you would have heard 30 years ago.

What they are failing to realize is that 30 years ago they owned the only media in town. That is no longer the case.  Not only that, but in the 2008 election the media burned its bridges in support of Obama. Even hardcore Democrats acknowledge that the MFM was in the bag for Obama and acted accordingly.

They have literally poisoned the well and will no longer be able to carry the water for the Dems because nobody believes them anymore.

The Dems are going to have to adjust their strategy accordingly. But that doesn't mean that the Republicans are on easy street. They still have not figured out how to react to hostile media. They constantly worry about being attacked by the media and try to adjust their strategy and methods accordingly. This is playing right into the media's hands. The 2008 handling of Palin by the Republican strategists was a case history in how NOT to react with the MFM.

On that score I think we need to follow the campaigns of Rand Paul and Sharon Angle who are working out new strategies for dealing with a hostile media.  Early in their campaigns the MFM blasted them right and left as being extreme. That is the typical Democrat hit talking point brought out by the MFM. It did hurt them both initially but since they cut off all interviews with the media and adjusted their strategy they have rebounded. Rand Paul is now 10 points ahead in KY and Angle is up now and will soon be opening the gap. 

242

I propose that the Democrats are "Nelsoning" themselves.  They are creating chaos at a rate republicans could never muster.  

Turns out Dear Leader has a political tin ear and a thin skin to boot.  A terrible combination.  Whether the birthers are right or not is irrelevant, the President's sympathies will always cause him to tread where the media can not cover him.  Which is exactly why he weighed in on the mosque.  He may or may not  BE a Muslim, but he certainly has very strong sympathies toward Muslims and those emotions caused him to make yet another political blunder.

With the chaos started, Nancy Pelosi added a couple a days to the furor with her "investigate our enemies" speech.  Which by the way is the perfect side dish to upset those delicious, syrup covered waffles the media calls independents - but should simply be known as a typical left-leaning women - sexual organs an unimportant distinction for this analogy.

To sum up, all we need to apply is pressure.  The current crop of democrats will provide the chaos and end up being the second worst date in political history.  

243 @Knaws,

"Political tin ear" isn't the half of it. Vox Day has done some interesting work on estimating Obama's IQ.

  Barack Obama's IQ is ~116 From Vox Day, author of The Return of the Great Depression.

"Due to affirmative action, however, one must reduce that [LSAT] score by at least 186 points. ... Thus, giving Obama the benefit of the doubt drops his score to 1104, which is equivalent to an IQ of 116."

That's using the Harvard average LSAT as a base for the affirmative action bonus.

Here's corroborating evidence, with a hard (non-speculative) ceiling on Obama's IQ.

"UPDATE II - Obama graduated from my mother's alma mater, where everyone takes the various college prep tests. He was not a National Merit Scholar, a National Merit Semifinalist or an Outstanding Participant. This indicates a ceiling on his SAT percentile at 96.9, which indicates a maximum possible SAT score of 1230 and maximum IQ of 129."

Which explains this comment from Caroline at Dirty Harry's Place in 2008.

  "...intelligence always reveals itself. As a skilled athlete reveals his athletic skill in simple things like moving gracefully to pick up a dropped napkin or catching a falling pencil before it hits the floor, etc., an intelligent person reveals his intelligence in equally telltale signs as well - the most obvious are his ability to quote effortlessly from great works, or great thinkers, etc. Obama has NEVER done that!"

The whole comment is much longer, and well worth reading.

244

Frankly, I don't know one or another, but its very very odd for someone to spend 2 million a year to hide something little kids have to show to enroll in school across this country.

 

Posted by: johnc_recent_EX-dem at August 19, 2010 11:21 PM (ACkhT)

 

It does seem a little odd doesn't it?  I suspect it is something extremely embarrising on the form that he does not want to see the light of day. Somehting about religion or parents birthplace, number or births for the mother or something similar.  States had some extremely odd things on birth certificates prior to 1965 or so.  My bet is on this was not his mom's first child and like on my birth certificate it shows the number of children the mother has already had.

245 It does seem a little odd doesn't it? I suspect it is something extremely embarrising on the form that he does not want to see the light of day. Somehting about religion or parents birthplace, number or births for the mother or something similar. States had some extremely odd things on birth certificates prior to 1965 or so. My bet is on this was not his mom's first child and like on my birth certificate it shows the number of children the mother has already had. Posted by: Johnnyreb at August 20, 2010 06:52 AM (y67bA) This guy has no real past and no real friends. Weird to say the least

246 Allowing The Birthers to be demonized is among the stupidest things I've ever seen.  You let the Lefties define the terms of the discussion and the limits of the investigation into O's bona fides.  Stupid.

247

How do we identify each other on election day?
a Red button.
a Red Wave gif on our facebook profile.

Red's too obvious.  Why don't we all just put purple ink on our middle fingers?  Somehow it just seems ...  appropriate..

 

248 If the republicans don't fuck this up and actually do win in November, they had better govern like they have a mandate.
The only time they should reach across the aisle is to slit throats.

249 Knaws

The Democrats' specialty certainly is "up close and personal" getting in their face and bullying via Alinsky methodology.

The ugly fact remains, their only goods are Marxism.

FORCE THEM TO WEAR THEIR OWN EXTREMIST TITLE.

SurferDoc,

Spot On.

It isn't simply "allowing" those demanding constitutional conservancy to be demonized. Neoconservatives are part and parcel in the derision, typecasting all Americans who want to preserve the Constitution as extremists, even stupidly typecast as "leftist". Not only is the paleocon label smeared above the "birther" label that to neoconservatives suffices for ignoramus hicks, but then the "antisemitic" smear is pasted on top it all out of the blue with nothing to substantiate, merely for affekt, representing universal evil. Take MadisonConservative's definitions posted at HotAir two days ago under Dr. Laura's thread, for example.

Any opponent of Obama's Marxism who sabotages another opponent's legitimacy by erasing any portion of the Constitution is in reality a benefactor of authoritarianism.

250

I love it when the shit-house lawyers come out a night.

I missed a shit-house lawyers meeting?  Ahh.. crap...

 

251 It was a weapon to be used and it was handed over to the enemy without a struggle.  The Lefties went "woof Woof" and the Right rolled over on its back and handed them the Birthers.

252 First of all - the only people trying to get us to waste time on the Birther issue are Axelrod sock puppets. Why? Because the donkeys know it is a loser for us. Ignore these idiots. He is POTUS, he can fake any piece of paper he wants.

Liberals are the only ones who want this dumb ass issue still alive; talking about it simply makes us look like fools.

By the way the fact that Axelrod's sock puppets got here so quickly shows that the progressives are not as inflexible as you might wish, and are good at sewing chaos themselves.

What are winners for issues?

1. Its the Donkey's recession. The jackasses winning congress in 06 started the economic problems.  JOBS ECONOMY real unemployment rate is 16.3% - govt statistic (U6)
2. BP Nobody gets to say "The Buck stops here!" and then try to blame somebody else.
3. The way OBAMACARE was shoved down the public's throat.
4. Pelosi Reed
5. Their Record
6. Their Imperial arrogance.
7. Hang Obama around Every Donkey's neck like a 5000 lb weight.
8. Jimmy Carter's second term. "When we had Jimmy Carter for a president we thought we had seen the worst president ever... we were wrong."
9. President Vacation. "I won't rest until..." "Laser focus on jobs..." all with shots of POTUS on golf course and sunning himself.
10. Show how the donkeys run from Obama.
11. TAXES

Most states are Red - which means the Senate has to be Red. No Democratic senators from Red States and no RINOS. One third of the Senate is up for election - every Red State Democrat and RINO needs to be targeted for defeat - EVERY SINGLE ONE.

A permanent RED STATE SENATE is our only long term protection from the Donkeys and needs to be our number one priority.

NO RED STATE DONKEYS

253 Purple Avenger,

Great historical memory for recall.

I agree that socialists of various political titles do play Alinsky's game of regurgitation that is repulsive to any sentient voter.

The shock factor of novelty is LONG GONE for Raum Inc. Tax paying voters are sick of being attacked and abused by our misfunctioning government. Graft isn't enough for these politicians.

Until this administration, Congress, and the Judicial Branch each performs their own designated and limited constitutional duties, it's more bad news.

And in order for conservatives to unify as a cohesive power for attack and victory, the neoconservatives need to stop cannibalizing Tea Party constitutional conservatives in order to usurp all the grassroots energy to empower more federal bureaucracies and over spending for more deficit while we're BANKRUPT!

Define the point of attack as shattering all things unconstitutional. Attack the enemy at every point of corruption. Death by a thousand cuts isn't the only way. There's pulling it out by its roots to prevent regrowth after the battle.

America wouldn't be saddled by Obamarx had his supposed opponents insisted that the courts uphold the Constitution without blindly deleting integrity, furthering revisionism out of CONVENIENCE. When did convenience become the basis for expediency? TRAFALGAR was by no means CONVENIENT for anyone, especially Admiral Nelson.

254

CHECK OUT THIS AP HEADLINE

Oil spill and Iraq combat over, Obama takes break

255 Oil spill and Iraq combat over, Obama takes break

Inaction is tiring.

256 The Lefties went "woof Woof" and the Right rolled over on its back and handed them the Birthers.
Posted by: SurferDoc

Which shows exactly how patriotic they'll be when the Birthers disappear after the DHS bus rolled by.

I was thoroughly disappointed that the Republican response to 9/11 was to create unconstitutional bureaucratic federal authoritarian powers ripe for Marxists to exploit.

Bush didn't retract any of Clinton's unconstitutional excesses. And there isn't a known Republican preparing for '12 who will actually retract the authoritarian powers that Bush established and Obama exploits. Power and lust. The Constitution became an inconvenient supreme law of the land, an imposition to be disregarded with the "expedient" excuse smeared with plenty of "good intention" propaganda.

257 262 It was a weapon to be used and it was handed over to the enemy without a struggle.  The Lefties went "woof Woof" and the Right rolled over on its back and handed them the Birthers.

Posted by: SurferDoc at August 20, 2010 08:14 AM (X6a9o)

An exceptionally astute way of putting it. I'm copying it into my clever sayings file.

258

By withdrawing our combat forces from Iraq before a stable government has been established in Iraq, just to placate the far left in this country and for no other reason, that damned fool, Obama, has created a hairy situation in Iraq in which another Saddam Hussein type could emerge and seize power, the only other alternative being that that country will fall into chaos again with factions battling to attain power ......., a scenario somewhat similar to what we witnessed in Viet Nam when extremely irresponsible Democrats in Congress cut off funding to the South Vietnamese to placate loony anti-war activists in this country, and when irresponsible Democrats withdrew troops from Europe in 1945 before the Soviet threat had been addressed, a blunder that created the cold war and another war in Korea and the war in Viet Nam and the Cuban Missle Crisis, also.  In fact, Democrats never finish what they start, and they always do a half-ass job. 

The Democrats are such impulsive and compulsive and habitual fuck-ups. They never learn from their mistakes. In fact, they never accept responsibility for the consequences of their mistakes. To placate the loony, braindead far left extremists in their party,  and like bulls in a china shop, they keep making the same stupid blunders over and over again. The Democrats are a coalition of imbeciles and lunatics.

259

 But that doesn't mean that the Republicans are on easy street. They still have not figured out how to react to hostile media. They constantly worry about being attacked by the media and try to adjust their strategy and methods accordingly. This is playing right into the media's hands. The 2008 handling of Palin by the Republican strategists was a case history in how NOT to react with the MFM.

I agree wholeheartedly.  The republicans as a party are still trying to play footsie with the MSM.  They shouldn't be.  They should instead bypass the mainstream media entirely from here on out.

Katie Couric and the rest of her ilk are never going to give any republican candidate a fair shake during an election cycle.  So why give them access?  What's the point in that?

The republican party needs to wake up and realize that if the MSM is going to actively engage in attempts to discredit and change your message, then there is no point in trying to use them to get your message out.  Instead use news outlets like Fox, which will give you the benfit of the doubt.

Also, replace all those hack journalists from the likes of MSNBC at events like the national convention with bloggers.  Revoke their press passes, and when they whine and moan tell it to them straight.  "I'm sorry, but we only give press passes to journalists.  Not DNC operatives."

In short, quit mickey mousing around with these worthless hacks. 

260 Why can't we have:

Cheap Ammo.

Cheap Springfield Armory.

Cheap Bushmaster ACR.

That would be so cool. Wish we had spammers like that.

261 StuckOnStupid

That will be the day. Let's hope so. You should post the RNC your suggestion.

"I'm sorry, but we only give press passes to journalists, not DNC operatives."

262 From the Washington Examiner:

Abject panic at the White House

ThatÂ’s my immediate reaction to this.

Key White House allies are dramatically shifting their attempts to defend health care legislation, abandoning claims that it will reduce costs and deficit, and instead stressing a promise to “improve it.”

The messaging shift was circulated this afternoon on a conference call and PowerPoint presentation organized by FamiliesUSA — one of the central groups in the push for the initial legislation…The confidential presentation, available in full here and provided to POLITICO by a source on the call, suggests that Democrats are acknowledging the failure of their predictions that the health care legislation would grow more popular after its passage, as its benefits became clear and rhetoric cooled. Instead, the presentation is designed to win over a skeptical public, and to defend the legislation — and in particular the individual mandate — from a push for repeal.

More links at link:

http://tinyurl.com/2eo9xsp

263

Didn't Nelson die at Trafalgar?

 

Fun fact:  Lord Nelson wanted to be buried at home so he could be buried next to his wife.  The British gubamint buried him at St. Paul's Cathedral against his wishes.  Florence Nightengale's grave is right across from his. 

264

That will be the day. Let's hope so. You should post the RNC your suggestion.

Lol.. well, they're probably sick of hearing from me by now, but I'll toss it their way and see what they do I guess.

265 A permanent RED STATE SENATE is our only long term protection from the Donkeys and needs to be our number one priority.

The Senate is the natural power base of the Red States we need to seize that fortress and never let it go.

NO RED STATE DONKEYS OR RINOS IN THE SENATE EVER.

Without that we are all dead.

266 Are you comparing the GOP to the Royal Navy?   I think Nelson would be outraged. I think I am outraged.

267

CHECK OUT THIS AP HEADLINE

Oil spill and Iraq combat over, Obama takes break

Posted by: Russel Simmonds at August 20, 2010 08:32 AM (wuv1c)

This is AP's attempt at humor...right...right??? Hello!!

Morn' all...has anyone checked on ACE today...his last post was a major fail and at 7AM...Spooky!

 

268 Birtherism is a perfect example of the tactics Democrats use all the time. Spread some lie, ignore when it's refuted, spread it some more, then treat it as a "known fact."

The trick is doing it properly. No Republican candidate should ever come out and demand O's birth certificate. That's ham-fisted and lays one open to journalistic gotchas. Just say something like "a lot of Americans are concerned on this point and are disappointed that President Obama hasn't addressed the issue properly." That statement is absolutely true and can't be disputed.

What the Republicans lack is a corps of high-visibility deniable assets to spread shit like this. The Democrats have the Actor/Singer bloc, who can say any fucking thing and the actual party politicians can brush it off with a "you know those actors/musicians . . . "

Ted Nugent seems to be the only conservative celebrity willing to act like a total lunatic for the good of the nation.

269

Are you comparing the GOP to the Royal Navy?   I think Nelson would be outraged. I think I am outraged.

What was Churchill's comment about the Royal Navy? "rum sodomy and the lash". He may have ben describing the ONT.

270 stupid sock.

271
The Nelson Touch.

272 Atrollpassinthru

Great summation on Democrats.

Regarding diplomatic American efforts to end Korean and Vietnamese combat in peace, both the presidents of S.Korea and S.Vietnam refused to sign for peace. The UN in Korea made a difference in outcome than the US monopoly on war engagement in Vietnam. As much as I blame Truman for not supporting MacArthur's knowledge in Korea, I blame Kissinger as much as Kennedy and LBJ for the entire horrible experience in Vietnam, a war America really had no business perpetuating after the fall of the remnant French Empire there, Kennedy's wag the dog. But Kissinger brought on the  Khmer Rouge for Cambodia.

As far as Bush's war in Afghanistan gone to Iraq, the propaganda was to kill Osama bin Laden and destroy al-Qaeda, before deciding that the US was going to be up close and personal with permanent military installations in Iraq to confront Iran. Gone with the wind long before the '08 election.

"By withdrawing our combat forces from Iraq before a stable government has been established in Iraq," according to Jean Kirkpatrick,  there will be instability in Iraq for an equal time period to having been ruled by a strongman. Given the Qur'an doctrine that Islam is a theocracy (and the population of Iraq no longer boasts non-Muslims), Iraq will not have another stable government until the next strong man equal to Saddam Hussein takes power there. Only next time, instead of abating Iran as Saddam Hussein did with his minority (also permitting indigenous Christian and Jewish communities peaceful coexistence), the majority will rule and align with Iran.

Regardless of intent, in Islam the US can not nation build anything but perpetual trouble. And Newt's latest exploit (NRO) for Americans funding "Free Cities" abroad where the US is reviled is another hoax to gild fraud's lily at the expense of misdirected good intentions.

273

Red State also has this, this morning, thought it was interseting.

http://tinyurl.com/2ccexvv

 

274 An exceptionally astute way of putting it. I'm copying it into my clever sayings file.
-------------------

Right next to "Truly, sir, that was a magic bullet" and "Fire can't melt steel."

275 Tami - #273 @ 8:49 ........: Interesting. Thanks.

276 285 An exceptionally astute way of putting it. I'm copying it into my clever sayings file.
-------------------

Right next to "Truly, sir, that was a magic bullet" and "Fire can't melt steel."

Posted by: schizuki at August 20, 2010 09:15 AM (Xd9fe)

You don't debate. You mock. What good is that to anyone but yourself?

277 yahoo news (default page on my computer) has an AP story headlined: "oil leak plugged, iraq combat over; obama takes break" typical blind support for obama from ultra left yahoo, and usually the comments are pretty supportive, but you guys should take a look. 86,000+ comments just ripping yahoo, AP & obama. makes this site seem somewhat tame! conservatives here may find it encouraging.

278

"Impressions trump arguments, and for most of the country, Obama will, from here on in, be a strange and untrustworthy figure -- a man who does not understand what Ground Zero means to America, who utilizes American law and custom to support foreign interests, who speaks to strangers more clearly than to his own."

http://tinyurl.com/32dmn6y

 

279 Trimegistus

What the Republicans lack is a corps of high-visibility deniable assets to spread shit like this. The Democrats have the Actor/Singer bloc, who can say any fucking thing and the actual party politicians can brush it off with a "you know those actors/musicians . . . "

Not really. What Republicans have are committed conservatives who neither need or want to "spread shit" that isn't factual. Nothing is more destructive than the record of fraud and corruption spread liberally by all opponents of socialism. Furthermore, attacking liars with truth is better than ignoring liars or returning fire inaccurately.

Regarding Obama not being a natural born citizen with both parents being US citizens and his birth on US territory, although that certainly need not be the battle cry through the '12 election, THAT ENTIRE ABUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION MUST BE REDRESSED. Why ignore such a fundamental truth? Obama would not have been elected had everyone insisted that everyone who runs for potus must be a natural born citizen. It isn't as if ignoring the problem will make it go away, particularly since Obama isn't the only non-natural born citizen with future potus ambitions. Seeing a hole in the dam and saying "so what" or "too late" doesn't repair the dam's integrity.

280 i mention the yahoo/AP article ("oil leak plugged and iraq combat over, obama takes a break") as it strikes me that visiting this and other conservative blogs can leave one with a sense that strong opposition to obama is to some extent isolated amid a sea of msm support. there, in the 87000+ comments you see a very broad and sharp rebuke of obama and his policies. refreshing in some way. perhaps worth a gander...

281 Obama would not have been elected had everyone insisted that everyone who runs for potus must be a natural born citizen. It isn't as if ignoring the problem will make it go away, particularly since Obama isn't the only non-natural born citizen with future potus ambitions. Seeing a hole in the dam and saying "so what" or "too late" doesn't repair the dam's integrity.

Posted by: mavrick muse at August 20, 2010 09:26 AM (H+LJc)

Apart from that, the courts put great stock in "Precedent." Once someone who is not qualified is allowed to get away with it, could not some future plaintiff argue to the courts (and who knows how they will respond nowadays.) "Well, Obama got away with it! I demand equal application of the law! "

282 You don't debate. You mock. What good is that to anyone but yourself?

-----------------

I'm a libertarian conservative. Both conservatism and libertarianism have two great virtues - they are based on truth and reason. Truth and reason eventually win. Always.  Progressivism is based on lies and irrationality. Those things always lose. They rear their ugly heads from time to time, but the basic wisdom of the American culture always slaps them back down.

So when self-important  dimwits like yourself who are ostensibly on the same side as I am indulge in irrationality, I mock you. I mock you because you are antithetical to those basic virtues. You undermine them.

The same goes for the commenters above who say we should engage in Axelrodian disinformation and propaganda. The Left does this. They lie. And the American people eventually see right through it. We don't need to lie. If we do, the American people will see through us as well. The truth about the Left is enough to condemn them. Don't spread lies, spread truth. The truth is a gun; a lie is a gun carved from soap. It might work for a short time, but ultimately you're just left holding the soap.

So, liars and lunatics, as long as you act like Leftists, I'll mock you like I mock Leftists.

283 Lighten up, Francis.

284 The Franco-Spanish van commanded by Admiral Dumanoir passed the battle, firing broadsides indiscriminately into comrade and enemy, and returned to Cadiz.

Don't play Dumanoir.

If you don't want to touch the Constitution's natural born citizen requirement of every potus, that doesn't legitimize your attack on birthers.

How hard can it be to ignore birthers rather than ignoring the Constitution?

The Republican Party doesn't benefit within from cannibal Alinsky acolytes who would, determined by CONVENIENCE, bully the constitutional conservative rather than the source of corruption.

285 We didn't make them live up to their own rules.  They had tried to make McCain ineligible so they even had set up the game for us.  We should have picked up the fumble and run it right up their asses. 

286 runningrn

Admiral Nelson's request that the state provide means for his mistress and their daughter was not granted. /Not a fun fact.

287 schizuki, I generally agree, but I would caution that there's two types of "Axelrodian disinformation and propaganda" that we should consider.  The first is the outright lies, and yeah, we don't need those.  But the second is more along the lines of "shaping the narrative".  I don't think that is such a terrible thing to indulge in.  For instance: all the lefties during 2005-06 would shout and scream and holler about the body count in Iraq.  Of course that was meant to give the impression that the place was a bloody shithole and that American soldiers were dying left and right.  Of course that really wasn't true, but they managed to create that impression by hollering and hollering about "grim milestones".  I don't see anything particularly offensive about that type of messaging per se when executed by us on the right.

288
So when self-important  dimwits like yourself who are ostensibly on the same side as I am indulge in irrationality, I mock you. I mock you because you are antithetical to those basic virtues. You undermine them.

Posted by: schizuki at August 20, 2010 09:33 AM (Xd9fe)

In order for you to reasonably accuse me of irrationality, you must first understand what I have said. I am confident that you haven't listened to me sufficiently to make a weighted judgment on that score. You simply lump me into the same category as all other "birthers."  This is called "Predjudice."

289 SurferDoc at August 20, 2010 09:38 AM

I certainly did with the Berkeley Report documenting EVERY facet of Obama's origin and upbringing (genealogy and biographies of all grandparents, parents and step father, passports, interviews with Kenyan family, as well as the Santa Clara law faculty and labor attorney Diamond's reports.

Neither Ace nor HotAir would follow up throughout the primaries.

Now, they've been removed from the internet.

And all the neoconservatives have to say about it is "birther".

There is another matter that no one has investigated. Exactly what was Obama doing his year's employment after Columbia graduation working for the global investment information bank?

290 Diogenes:

Here's an idea.  Let's get somebody in charge, oh I don't know, maybe a chair of a Congressional oversight committee, with the power to issue subpoenas and find out the "real truth" behind Obama's birth certificate.

But in order to have a chance at doing that, first, the Republicans have to win back Congress.

But in order to do THAT, you have to SHUT UP about the BIRTHER CRAP, so that the VOTERS DON'T THINK WE ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING LUNATIC RETARDS.

Oh, and maybe with Republicans in charge of Congress, they might do other, slightly less consequential things, like, oh I don't know, stop the spread of socialism.  You know, small little details compared to the importance of having Obama's long form birth certificate.

In other words: UR NOT HELPING.

291

Of course unlike Seldon, Nicolson is predicting the past which is pretty much a slam-dunk.

I don't know, those Marxists seemed to have trouble with it.

Something about always being at war with Eurasia...

Bonus points for the Asimov reference though.

292

Nonsense.  History plainly teaches that force and fear always wins.  We are battling entropy.

Yes, yes you are.

AND YOU SHALL LOSE!

293 DiogenesLamp at August 20, 2010 09:42 AM

IGNORANTLY bigoted prejudice, on the record.

Group think mob mentality attracts thugs.

I stand for the record. I stand for unbiased scholarly research tempering the propaganda from politicians.

"Birther" implies that Obama's critic thinks he has NO birth certificate. Obama's problem is how many different and contradictory birth certificates and certificate of live birth that are distributed.

"Birther" does NOT label the constitutional conservative who demands that every potus be a natural born citizen.

294 But in order to do THAT, you have to SHUT UP about the BIRTHER CRAP, so that the VOTERS DON'T THINK WE ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING LUNATIC RETARDS.

In other words: UR NOT HELPING.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 09:47 AM (Pm5H

It is my observation that this website is not generally read by the public, and that it contains conservative minded people. If the issue cannot be discussed here, where can it be discussed?

When the issue first rose up during the election, All the left wing denounced it, and to our surprise, a substantial quantity of the right wing renounced it too. The problem is, the issue is legitimate. As the Surfer Doc said:

"It was a weapon to be used and it was handed over to the enemy without a struggle.  The Lefties went "woof Woof" and the Right rolled over on its back and handed them the Birthers."

295 The Birth Certificate is not the issue to me.  Controlling the narrative and making them respond is what I am after.  Every time we concede to them that something is out of bounds for discussion we have just been screwed.  That is why "Make them live up to their own rules" is a good strategy.

296

Wouldn't the simple way for Obama to prove he's a Christian be to produce a baptismal certificate?

Baptisterism! Bapterist!

297

But in order to do THAT, you have to SHUT UP about the BIRTHER CRAP, so that the VOTERS DON'T THINK WE ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING LUNATIC RETARDS.

Lol.. yup, that pretty much wraps it up I suppose.  Ok, lets take a look at this from both sides.

If Obama's birth certificate were false/phony, he would technically be ineligible for President.  So, what does this do for us from a politcal standpoint?  Nothing, if anything it probably hurts us.  All of us.  Even if we could finally get him removed from office on those grounds (and boy, would that be an uphill battle) That puts Joe Biden in charge.

And if his birth certificate is proven to be legit?  Well it makes anyone screaming about this look foolish.  The plain fact is that it's a no win scenario either way, nobody in power is going to take this seriously and it's something that is to easily painted as conspiratorial in nature.

The plain fact of the matter is Obama is President, at least for now.  So instead of concentrating on dubious theories that probably wouldn't do us much good even if they could be proven at some point, why not do what we can to stop his radical agenda in 2010 and then get rid of his sorry ass altogether in 2012.

As others may have mentioned, promoting all the birther theories really doesn't help us to do either, in fact it probably does more harm than good.

298 "Birther" implies that Obama's critic thinks he has NO birth certificate. Obama's problem is how many different and contradictory birth certificates and certificate of live birth that are distributed.

"Birther" does NOT label the constitutional conservative who demands that every potus be a natural born citizen.

Posted by: mavrick muse at August 20, 2010 09:53 AM (H+LJc)

I don't really care where Obama was born, I don't really think that's the salient issue. However, Most people do. We have misinterpreted the 14th amendment for so long, most people believe that Native born means the same thing as "Natural Born." So the question of where Obama is born is very important to the public.

That being said, I don't discount that he might have been born in Hawaii. I simply point out that this cannot be proven from the available information, and the state election officials didn't do due diligence before allowing him on the ballot.

299

Great summation on Democrats - maverick muse 09:15 AM (H+LJc)

Aw shucks, twernt nothin' (blushing here)

300 298
Every question you raise about Obama's birth certificate and eligibility can be raised about McCain's.

Posted by: schizuki at August 20, 2010 03:09 AM (Xd9fe)

That statement is so full of ignorance that its overflowed its dumbness container.

 

Posted by: polynikes at August 20, 2010 09:36 AM (m2CN7)

I agree. McCain's birth certificate contains the signature of a Witness. His mother and Father are Known American Citizens. (His Father was an Admiral in the US Navy.)

301 Nonsense.  History plainly teaches that force and fear always wins.  We are battling entropy.


We have nothing to fear but fear itself conquered the atrociously ferocious Nazi power mongers.

What sustained Americans at the Battle of the Bulge? NUTS!

Attacking your ally is sabotage.

The British were wrong to do it at Algiers, the distrustful and faithless Churchill destroying the French fleet and killing French navy men already sworn to self destruct rather than fall into Nazi hands, proving so at another point.

302 You "Anti-Birthers" let them get over on you.  You agree with them, defend them and announce that you are going to let them intimidate you off that subject the next time, too.  You will most likely go along with what ever other topic they decide can't be discussed as well.  Because you are afraid to look uncool?  They must laugh their asses off.

303 It is my observation that this website is not generally read by the public, and that it contains conservative minded people. If the issue cannot be discussed here, where can it be discussed?

How about: far, far away from the Internet, telephone, mailbox, carrier pigeon, or any other form of communication that could potentially be used to embarrass the rest of us who are trying to stop the spread of socialism.  Because I'm going to be really fucking angry if we don't win back Congress this year because a few swing voters in a few swing districts decided that the R candidate stood for birtherism and hence stayed away.

304 Ya know, I'm really starting to believe that Diogenes is a Media Matters/Axelrod troll.

305

As others may have mentioned, promoting all the birther theories really doesn't help us to do either, in fact it probably does more harm than good.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 09:57 AM (e8T35)

How many times do I read people telling us to not worry about what the Media is going to say because they hate us anyway? Are we mostly pragmatists here? Are there any principles worth standing for without regard to how they can be bent to our political advantage?

306

314 DiogenesLamp at 09:54 AM (eVJ7T)

Hang in there, son. Stick by your guns. They haven't called you a poopy head yet. That's encouraging.

307 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 20, 2010 09:59 AM (eVJ7T)

Whether or not Obama was born on American territory, his father was NOT an American citizen. Hence, Obama is NOT a natural born citizen. The facts that his name was changed and he was registered as a citizen of Indonesia as a Muslim were also not admitted when Obama signed sworn statements to the contrary (Muslim aside), he denied under oath that he had other aliases, and has never admitted that he attended school as an Indonesian citizen. WHERE Obama was born is another matter, but an unnecessary point to recognize that his presidency is constitutionally illegitimate.

308 317 I also think the the birth certificate issue should be very low , if not absent , in our campaigning strategy but I also disdain those conservatives that mock, name-call  and dismiss other conservatives that raise legitimate issues of Obama's lack of transparency that we have required of all previous Presidents.

Posted by: polynikes at August 20, 2010 10:01 AM (m2CN7)

This seems reasonable to me. However, if so much of the public is willing to believe that Obama is a Muslim, how is believing that he is unqualified for office crazier than that?

309

"It was a weapon to be used and it was handed over to the enemy without a struggle.  The Lefties went "woof Woof" and the Right rolled over on its back and handed them the Birthers."

Ahh, first they came for the Birthers and I said nothing because I was not fucktarded...

Look, if fucktards want to vote for 'your guy' for stupid fucktardastic reasons, I think you should let them.

I do not call them fucktards because I cannot fathom he might not be a natural born citizen. He might not be.

But because it's sadly irrelevant. If it's fake, he faked it well enough. It's like Leyasu Tokugawa forging his family history to show him being descendant from Minamoto so he could be declared Shogun.

Again... let's say, hypothetically, you GET your birth certificate and it turns out he was born in Indonesia or Lichtenstein and thus, is technically ineligble even though he was elected and sworn in.

Now what? Do you start calling for John Roberts to "frogmarch" him out?

Won't happen. And if, hypothetically, it did - then what? Another way Obama is like Nixon - he's got Spiro Agnew II, Dumb and Dumbererer. You want to put Sherriff Joe in charge? President Nancy Pelosi?

310

Whether or not Obama was born on American territory, his father was NOT an American citizen. Hence, Obama is NOT a natural born citizen.

We are not Reverse-Jews. His mother was. It does not matter that his father wasn't.

And under current anchor-baby rules it doesn't matter if either was anyway.

311 How about: far, far away from the Internet, telephone, mailbox, carrier pigeon, or any other form of communication that could potentially be used to embarrass the rest of us who are trying to stop the spread of socialism.  Because I'm going to be really fucking angry if we don't win back Congress this year because a few swing voters in a few swing districts decided that the R candidate stood for birtherism and hence stayed away.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:07 AM (Pm5H8)

And how would you know, or have you already decided to yourself, that any losses will be for this reason? Well, since you made your mind up before the fact on this "Natural Born Citizen" issue, why should you change your Modus Operandi? 

I honestly don't see this issue as being very different from "He's a Muslim." issue. How does it hurt us to question his legitimacy? It's like the racism card. We've already taken the hits, the best response now is to just ignore the criticism from the Media circles.

312 Bottom line:
If you really really care about the whole birther nonsense, the first step is to get people in charge willing to do something about it.  That means win elections.  That means SHUT UP about it, because birtherism is a LOSING issue politically.  How hard is that to grasp?

313 How does it hurt us to question his legitimacy?

Because it paints us all as deranged kooks unworthy of holding the keys of power in Washington.

314

Or we could just believe that your arguments are weak, unsupported by facts, lack reasoning and is the stuff concocted by internet wannabe lawyers.

 

Or, the taint of our your faux moral, intellectual and ethical superiority may be too strong for me to stand next to.

 

But, other than thatÂ…Â…Â…..have a nice day.

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 10:08 AM (OWjjx)

This would be a reasonable position had you refuted the points raised. You will not let the conversation get that far before attempting to shout it down with "Conspiracy" or "Truther" or "Aliens" or "Holocaust Denier"  etc. Mockery.

315 332 Bottom line:
If you really really care about the whole birther nonsense, the first step is to get people in charge willing to do something about it.  That means win elections.  That means SHUT UP about it, because birtherism is a LOSING issue politically.  How hard is that to grasp?

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:16 AM (Pm5H

--What chemjeff said.  0bama will be beatable on numerous, out in the open fronts without having to make an issue out of something so nubious.  Birthers, please don't take the bait: The Demotards want you to!

316 Next time around they will be declaring that Hillary's marriage is off limits.  You will go for that, too.

Until the Right grows a big grows a big, hairy set it will never win and hold on to anything.

317 I really don't care where you think Obama was born.  But I'll be damned if I'm going to let your raving lunatic nonsense prevent us from stopping the slide into socialism this election cycle.

318 Heh heh, I said nubious (meant dubious)!

319

How many times do I read people telling us to not worry about what the Media is going to say because they hate us anyway? Are we mostly pragmatists here? Are there any principles worth standing for without regard to how they can be bent to our political advantage?

Well, if the birthers had solid evidence that would be one thing, but the truth is they simply don't.  Show me some solid proof and then were into the realm of standing on principle.

It is not one of my principles to accuse someone without solid evidence.  I have plenty of evidence that Obama is one of the most corrupt presidents that has ever held the office.  I have plenty of evidence that he is a socialist, plenty of evidence that he is inept, and for all of these things I'm more than willing to oppose him or take him to task.

But as of yet I haven't seen any more proof that he's not a natural born citizen than I have that aliens have landed or that the US government was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

If I do then naturally I'll reconsider my position.  Until then however it seems like a moot point to me.  Your mileage may vary, but that certainly doesn't give you the right to impune my principles or my sense of duty to my nation.

320

The British were wrong to do it at Algiers, the distrustful and faithless Churchill destroying the French fleet and killing French navy men already sworn to self destruct rather than fall into Nazi hands, proving so at another point.

Yeah, those Vichy's they were a steadfast lot...

I wouldn't trust no French navy man.

http://tinyurl.com/2cfjtz7

I'm pretty sure those gold Fleur-de-Lis are peel-off.

321 323 Ya know, I'm really starting to believe that Diogenes is a Media Matters/Axelrod troll.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:09 AM (Pm5H

Is this just your latest ad hominem attack, or would you like some proof?

I've offered to send copies of both of my birth certificates to Ace to prove that a state generated birth certificate CANNOT be accepted at face value, and yet no one wants to see any proof. They prefer to mock and malign.

If you think i'm an Axel Rod troll, I advise you to check out Talkpolwell.org. I've had a continuous presence there for a couple of years, and I daresay you will find my writings to be far more conservative than most. Probably to the right of YOU.

322

It's fruitless.  We need arguments with fruit in them.

323

314 DiogenesLamp at 09:54 AM (eVJ7T)

Hang in there, son. Stick by your guns. They haven't called you a poopy head yet. That's encouraging.

Posted by: Atrollpasinthru at August 20, 2010 10:10 AM (sYrWB)

The sad thing is, the discussion never seems to reach much beyond that level of discourse. But thank you for the encouragement.

324 If you think i'm an Axel Rod troll, I advise you to check out Talkpolwell.org.

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325 Good news: In Arkansas, Boozman is beating Lincoln by a mere 38 points

http://tinyurl.com/3356n66

326

I've offered to send copies of both of my birth certificates to Ace to prove that a state generated birth certificate CANNOT be accepted at face value, and yet no one wants to see any proof. They prefer to mock and malign.

Ok, well without mocking or maligning I must point out that their is a big differenence between proving that a state generated birth certificate could be falsified and proving that someone else did falsify one. 

State drivers licenses and other identification can also be falsified, but that doesn't prove that my drivers liscense is a fake.  It only proves it would be possible to fake one if someone were willing to put the time and effort into accomplishing that goal.

Who knows, you might be right.   Obama's birth certificate could indeed be fake.  But at this point in time I simply lack sufficient evidence to prove such an allegation, and as such I must refrain from making such an allegation.

327 Because I'm going to be really fucking angry if we don't win back Congress this year because a few swing voters in a few swing districts decided that the R candidate stood for birtherism and hence stayed away.
Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:07 AM

NO ONE here said that the constitutional integrity of "natural born citizen" be any campaign battle cry, whether '10, '12 or whenever.

But you support ignoring/erasing that matter from the record. The rationale was that it was too late and inconvenient to hold Obama to the record. Now, not Leftists, but neoconservative convenience has ignorantly determined contrary to record that to be a constitutional conservative is to be a "birther" who says that Obama has no birth certificate.

By not destroying the false definition that you apply along with Leftists to "birther" being ignorant hicks who need some elitist authoritarianism for their own good, you play the Marxist enabler regardless of intent.

Why indoctrinate the Marxist dogma on their behalf?

Just say no rather than erase portions of the Constitution.

And before calling a constitutional conservative an ignorant birther, quit swallowing the propaganda of authoritarian convenience and do scholarly research beyond the flimflam of which media personality said what.

Neoconservatives have no legitimacy framing revisionism as if they're more trustworthy as Republicans than they as Democrats.

I agree, campaign on the record of every politician. You should agree that the constitutional specification of presidents all being natural born citizens is a legitimate point remaining on the record to be rectified. We agree that until the Democrats are in the minority, nothing's getting rectified while Marxism augments constitutional perversions.

328

Now what? Do you start calling for John Roberts to "frogmarch" him out?

Won't happen. And if, hypothetically, it did - then what? Another way Obama is like Nixon - he's got Spiro Agnew II, Dumb and Dumbererer. You want to put Sherriff Joe in charge? President Nancy Pelosi?

Posted by: Entropy at August 20, 2010 10:12 AM (IsLT6)

You might be right pragmatically speaking. I don't know what would happen. Should we let murderers go because the public might riot? 

329

We are not Reverse-Jews. His mother was. It does not matter that his father wasn't.

And under current anchor-baby rules it doesn't matter if either was anyway.

Posted by: Entropy at August 20, 2010 10:16 AM (IsLT6)

This is where your lack of research on this issue is hobbling you in this discussion. I have read several accounts of American Law that hold Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to transfer American Citizenship to her offspring unless he was born in the country, and thereby acquires 14th amendment citizenship. 

Being a citizen is not equivalent to being a "Natural Born Citizen."

330 That means SHUT UP about it, because birtherism is a LOSING issue politically.  How hard is that to grasp?

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:16 AM (Pm5H

Yeah, it's crazy talk, like Obama being a Muslim.

331 Where is the fruit in that?

332 It seems we started talking about a guy who got shot by the Frogs and we have gone to whether BHO is a Known Naturalized Citizen. There is a difference between strategy and tactics.

333

I have read several accounts of American Law that hold Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to transfer American Citizenship to her offspring unless he was born in the country, and thereby acquires 14th amendment citizenship. 

But he was (ostensibly) born in Hawaii. Hence it does not matter whether either of his parents were citizens.

As for the mother being "too young" to count... I have never heard of such a thing.

334 Because it paints us all as deranged kooks unworthy of holding the keys of power in Washington.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:18 AM (Pm5H

Because you and the media keep asserting it. Had you not kept declaring it to be an illegitimate issue, It would not be one. I have followed the issue closely. Sure, there are some crazy theories out there, but that does not mean everyone follows those.

335 337 I really don't care where you think Obama was born.  But I'll be damned if I'm going to let your raving lunatic nonsense prevent us from stopping the slide into socialism this election cycle.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:19 AM (Pm5H

First of all, you can't do anything to stop what I am willing to do.

Secondly, do you likewise consider the Arizona and Oklahoma Legislature to be raving and lunatic as well? They are both considering bills to deny access to the ballot unless Full proof of Qualifications is shown.

336

Well, if the birthers had solid evidence that would be one thing, but the truth is they simply don't.  Show me some solid proof and then were into the realm of standing on principle.

It is not one of my principles to accuse someone without solid evidence.  I have plenty of evidence that Obama is one of the most corrupt presidents that has ever held the office.  I have plenty of evidence that he is a socialist, plenty of evidence that he is inept, and for all of these things I'm more than willing to oppose him or take him to task.

But as of yet I haven't seen any more proof that he's not a natural born citizen than I have that aliens have landed or that the US government was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

If I do then naturally I'll reconsider my position.  Until then however it seems like a moot point to me.  Your mileage may vary, but that certainly doesn't give you the right to impune my principles or my sense of duty to my nation.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 10:19 AM (e8T35)

I would love an opportunity to present you with such proof. We never get to that point because everybody is too busy calling us nuts and lunatics.

If you want to see some proof, I would start you off with this website. It, and others are compiled by scholarly people searching through the national archives to determine exactly what the phrase "Natural Born Citizen" as outlined by Article II, really means.

http://tinyurl.com/mmrr6v

337

I guess we do. But I donÂ’t recall me or the others who are skeptical of this claim or line of reasoning as advancing the thought that we are the last vanguard for the protection of the integrity of the Constitution.  Which, by the way, polynikes, I am not saying you are. However, others allied with you come off that way.

 Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 10:21 AM (OWjjx)

If you get the impression we feel this way, could it be because we have gone to the trouble to figure out what it actually means by researching contemporary documents?

Is it possible we come by this attitude naturally?

All I am saying is what has happened\is happening does not comport with what our founders documents says should happen.

Can it be OUR fault if you haven't read these documents?

338 I can't follow tinyurl linkies, have the federal courts weighed in on the definition of "Natural Born Citizen"?

339

" predicting the past which is pretty much a slam-dunk"

Oh yeah, tell that to the AGW modelers. They haven't got that right yet.

340 Server not found         

Firefox can't find the server at www.talkpolwell.org.

    *   Check the address for typing errors such as
          ww.example.com instead of
          www.example.com

    *   If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
          connection.

    *   If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
          that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:25 AM (Pm5H

talk-polywell.org/bb/index.php

Sorry, I didn't realize the Hyphenated it.

341

Whether or not Obama was born on American territory, his father was NOT an American citizen. Hence, Obama is NOT a natural born citizen.

We are not Reverse-Jews. His mother was. It does not matter that his father wasn't.

And under current anchor-baby rules it doesn't matter if either was anyway.

Posted by: Entropy

No. There are many forms of US citizenship. And you've read of them all. You mention naturalization, failing to acknowledge and discarding the constitutional definition without revisionism that to be a natural born citizen, both your parents must be US citizens and you must be born in the USA that includes our territories, military installations and embassies.

So this case in point matters if Americans are to have natural born citizen presidents as constitutionally designated; or if anyone regardless of illegitimate means in the future has a right to campaign for the US presidency.

Others' arguments that "Bite Me" would make a worse potus than Obama don't convince me. He'd be worse in some cases and better in others. Of course there will be no impeachment so long as the Democrat Majority rules. It is highly questionable that wimpy Republicans have the nerve to impeach Obama, specifically on his presidential record of corruption in office. But to say either that Obama shouldn't be impeached for fear of Bite Me doesn't include Nancy Pelosi in the mix given a Republican Majority necessary to initiate the impeachment. When taking down Obama with impeachment and successful prosecution (keep Fitzgerald far far away) do the same with Bite Me if he has a corrupted record. Supposing all that in the scenario, the Republican House Speaker would become POTUS, with another Republican made House Speaker. That's worth arguing to get; better than acquiescing on revisionism.

342

Who knows, you might be right.   Obama's birth certificate could indeed be fake.  But at this point in time I simply lack sufficient evidence to prove such an allegation, and as such I must refrain from making such an allegation.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 10:28 AM (e8T35)

My argument is not that it's fake. It's that it doesn't PROVE anything. It may very well be accurate, but because it's a computer printout and not a copy, no one can tell if it's true or not.

In other words, it's not good enough to meet the minimum requirements of proof.

343 Isn't the biggest issue to challenging BHO's citizenship status the fact that no seems to have standing to do so? Hasn't every case been dismissed for lack of standing?

344

But you support ignoring/erasing that matter from the record. The rationale was that it was too late and inconvenient to hold Obama to the record. Now, not Leftists, but neoconservative convenience has ignorantly determined contrary to record that to be a constitutional conservative is to be a "birther" who says that Obama has no birth certificate.

Ok, first and foremost I'm not a "neo" anything.  I am a conservative.  Second I see absolutely nothing gained on pressing a charge that at this point cannot be proven or disproven, particularly since the outcome probably wouldn't do anyone any good whatsoever.

Now, if you have proof that the annointed one is not a US citizen, hey great.  I'm on the band wagon.  Count me in.  Be more than happy to defend the Constitution just as I always have.  If you find that proof at some point and want it noted on the public record somehwere, sure, I'm all for that too.

But I see no purpose served in continuing to push this with no evidence.  And no, the "he hasn't proven were wrong" thing is not solid evidence.

Hopefully that clarifies at least my stance on the issue.

345 20% may believe that ihe is a muslim BUT 40% believe that Jesus will return to Earth in their lifetime.

346

I have read all your arguments before, the problems with your own birth certificate, the person in Hawaii, etc. etc. There is nothing new to it that you have not already posted numerous times before.

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 10:31 AM (OWjjx)

No you haven't. And those you have read you don't seem to comprehend.

I have NO PROBLEM with either of my birth certificates. There are NO MISTAKES on either one of them. One is the truth, and the other is state sanctioned lies. A "conspiracy" if you will.

My point regarding my birth certificate is that the State routinely lies on State Generated birth certificates, so they simply cannot be accepted at face value.

Again, My argument is that the computer printout from Hawaii is no proof at all. It might be true, but unless it's backed up with real proof,  it's veracity is in question.

 

347 Because it paints us all as deranged kooks unworthy of holding the keys of power in Washington.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:18 AM (Pm5H

 

I would like to give you an opportunity to rephrase that comment before I exploit it.

348 Your arguments have no fruit.

349 355 It seems we started talking about a guy who got shot by the Frogs and we have gone to whether BHO is a Known Naturalized Citizen. There is a difference between strategy and tactics.

Posted by: Penfold at August 20, 2010 10:37 AM (1PeEC)

Looks like someone has successfully been steering the narrative. Apart from that, the Percentage of people who believe Barack is a Muslim was the hook to draw the conversation in that direction.

350

My argument is not that it's fake. It's that it doesn't PROVE anything. It may very well be accurate, but because it's a computer printout and not a copy, no one can tell if it's true or not.

Well again we find ourselves at a juncture where while you might find the printout questionable, the fact that it's a printout rather than an original really doesn't constitute proof positive one way or the other.

 

 

351 Posted by: DiogenesLamp

It took me years here before getting the hang of tinyurl then the steps through Ace's link gadget.

http://tinyurl.com/

Use it here. Once you copy and bring your tinyurl address back here, return to your comment and highlight text needing the link. Click the link icon above your comment. Now remember to accommodate the system.

1. enlarge the link to full page
2. click menu list for http://
3. insert address and erase the http://
4. scroll to bottom right corner of page and click INSERT
5. Next page click APPLY and then click OK

Gotta run.

352 @StuckOnStupid,

You are missing the point entirely. We must focus on an issue that is unsupported by facts because it makes us look like idiots. That way some of the independent voters, whose support is crucial to rolling back the socialist agenda of Obama (pbuh), will question whether they really want to vote for people who are baying at the moon crazy. But...we will be pure of any taint of heterodoxy (real or imagined) when it comes to the constitution.

Of course we will be pure in the enlightened socialist republic of Americastan, but that's okay.

353

But he was (ostensibly) born in Hawaii. Hence it does not matter whether either of his parents were citizens.

As for the mother being "too young" to count... I have never heard of such a thing.

Posted by: Entropy at August 20, 2010 10:39 AM (IsLT6) 

If some real proof had been presented, I would say you are correct on him being a citizen, but given that the Meaning of Article II "Natural Born Citizen" appears to require TWO citizen parents, He still cannot comply with the Constitutional requirement, even if he IS a 14th Amendment citizen. 

Hawaii issues birth certificates to people not born in Hawaii. I don't know of any other state which does such a thing.

354

You are arrogant, obnoxious and trite.

And!  You have no fruit.  We like arguments with fruit in them.

355

No. Lets just assume that the court said a voter (or a member of the military) had standing to bring up issues of a candidateÂ’s eligibility to run for an office. What do you think may happen next? All of sudden, there would appear plaintiffs in every Congressional race, Senate race, governor race, etc. to file lawsuits against Republicans challenging every element of their eligibility. ACCORN funded, union funded, community organizing funded plaintiffs to challenge Republican candidates. And instead of campaigning and spending money on ads, organizations, etc. those candidates funds would be drained defending lawsuits challenging their eligibility. Sorry, its not worth opening up PandoraÂ’s box.

 

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 10:43 AM (OWjjx)

Is this another "Principle has to take a back seat to Consequences" Arugment?

So what about the military? Do they not have standing to question whether their commander is legit?

356

You might be right pragmatically speaking. I don't know what would happen. Should we let murderers go because the public might riot? 

I'll tell you what will happen - de nada.

Then you know what happens? That clause of the constitution is effectively invalidated. Right now we can at least have our ambiguity. A KNOWN ineligible candidate cannot run. An allegedly ineligible controversial candidate can.

Prove he's ineligible, conclusively, and then do nothing about it, and it won't matter any more. Schwartzenegger can run then. Why not? It was OK for an Indonesian. You'll tear the clause's guts out and make it inoperative.

Take Kelo vs. New London as a random example. We all know, and knew, what 'public use' meant. Would anyone have thought that kind of decision was even possible? Would it be acceptable? 20 years ago would you have imagined there would be a backlash and they couldn't get away with it? Well, minor backlash aside, they got away with it. Now they can do it whenever they want.

Once something is allowed it becomes allowable.

The static thing here, is the people in power (in either party) do not care. If they did, they'd have done something. They'll do nothing.

Right now, no one but no one disputes the legitmacy of the 'natural born citizen' clause. The argument is over whether Obama meets the requirements, not over the requirements themselves.

If you win this argument, you must be prepared for an assault on the requirements themselves and upon the constitution, where they will say "fuck the anachronistic 300 year old atavism clause we're just going to ignore it, the people get who they want which is who they voted for and that's democracy".

Are you prepared to win that argument? How? Tea-party march on the White House? What is at stake in that fight, compared to this one over Obama?

Pick your precedent.

Do you want them doing nothing about a rumored potentially ineligible president with ambiguity involved, or do you prefer they actually do absolutely nothing about a known, positively ineligble president?

357 363 I can't follow tinyurl linkies, have the federal courts weighed in on the definition of "Natural Born Citizen"?

Posted by: Penfold at August 20, 2010 10:50 AM (1PeEC)

Actually, it has never been decided. People often cite the Wong Kim Ark decision of the Supreme court, but the court merely held that he was a "Citizen" and did not address the issue of "Natural Born Citizen" as defined by Article II.

To this date, no court has addressed this issue. 

As for the link, it's to a site called "Undead Revolution." Google it, and you should be able to get there. They've got extensive quotes from George Washington regarding his attitudes about Foreign influence in our government.

358 368 Isn't the biggest issue to challenging BHO's citizenship status the fact that no seems to have standing to do so? Hasn't every case been dismissed for lack of standing?

Posted by: Penfold at August 20, 2010 10:54 AM (1PeEC)

Yes, it is the most peculiar thing. Alan Keyes Ran against Barack Obama and was defeated by him. It would seem reasonable to conclude that Keyes suffered a real injury, and would therefore have standing.

For some reason, the courts have dismissed Keyes suit. I think they are simply terrified of having to address this issue. If it ever gets before them, it will be a virtual certainty that they will have to find for plaintiff. I think they know this and are terrified at the prospect of riots throughout the country.

359 (yawn) I'm going down to the corner to watch the traffic light change for a while, and when I get back, I'm going to paint a wall and watch the paint dry.

360

Now, if you have proof that the annointed one is not a US citizen, hey great.  I'm on the band wagon.  Count me in.  Be more than happy to defend the Constitution just as I always have.  If you find that proof at some point and want it noted on the public record somehwere, sure, I'm all for that too.

But I see no purpose served in continuing to push this with no evidence.  And no, the "he hasn't proven were wrong" thing is not solid evidence.

Hopefully that clarifies at least my stance on the issue.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 10:57 AM (e8T35)

We have proof that he's not a "Natural Born Citizen" which is the only thing that really matters. Why is THAT not good enough to get you on the bandwagon?

361

To this date, no court has addressed this issue. 

And... you want them to? You're very sure it will make things better and not worse?

And if they declare that under Newspeach all it requires is for you to be a citizen, period, then what? Are we still happy we forced this matter or have we regrets?

362

Well again we find ourselves at a juncture where while you might find the printout questionable, the fact that it's a printout rather than an original really doesn't constitute proof positive one way or the other.

 Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 11:04 AM (e8T35)

Exactly. If it can't prove him to be qualified, why should he be allowed to skate without real proof?

Anyway, his birth certificate is the lesser piece of this issue. The SALIENT point is whether he meets Article II requirements, the evidence appears to show the answer is no.

363 Of course we will be pure in the enlightened socialist republic of Americastan, but that's okay.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (formerly NJConservative) at August 20, 2010 11:04 AM (LH6ir)

Those who drive the narrative decide who looks like idiots. The media hates us and will use any excuse to make us look stupid. They will have power over us as long as they are granted credibility. I say at some point we are going to have to shrug off our fear of what they will call us.

364 I have actually done something you probably have not done – actually studied constitutional law at a real law school. You should try getting admitted to one some day……it would give you something productive to do with your time.

 

And having done this, I have come to one conclusionÂ…Â…Â…you are  simply wrong..

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 11:06 AM (OWjjx)

Fine. If that is true, I accept it. Steer me to some links that support your assertion that I am wrong. I would love to see them because it would mean I could abandon this whole issue. 

Links please.

365

We have proof that he's not a "Natural Born Citizen" which is the only thing that really matters. Why is THAT not good enough to get you on the bandwagon?

Because I've never seen such evidence, for one.  By all means, present.

366 Ya know, I'm really starting to believe that Diogenes is a Media Matters/Axelrod troll.

Posted by: chemjeff at August 20, 2010 10:09 AM (Pm5H

You are disingenuous and nasty.  You are the type people refer to as Vichy Right.  Good work, numbnuts.  You don't understand jackshit about the issue but that doesn't stop you.  Pathetic.

367

If you win this argument, you must be prepared for an assault on the requirements themselves and upon the constitution, where they will say "fuck the anachronistic 300 year old atavism clause we're just going to ignore it, the people get who they want which is who they voted for and that's democracy".

Are you prepared to win that argument? How? Tea-party march on the White House? What is at stake in that fight, compared to this one over Obama?

Pick your precedent.

Do you want them doing nothing about a rumored potentially ineligible president with ambiguity involved, or do you prefer they actually do absolutely nothing about a known, positively ineligble president?

Posted by: Entropy at August 20, 2010 11:11 AM (IsLT6)

I prefer that we fix the problem. If we have to stress it to the breaking point, then perhaps that's what we ought to do. Do you think anyone would care about Extra-constitutional spending unless there was a mountain of debt about to crush us?

I would rather force them to overtly defy our laws, so at least their treachery is out in the open. How can we deal with defiance unless it is out in the open?

368

And... you want them to? You're very sure it will make things better and not worse?

And if they declare that under Newspeach all it requires is for you to be a citizen, period, then what? Are we still happy we forced this matter or have we regrets?

Posted by: Entropy at August 20, 2010 11:22 AM (IsLT6)

My thinking is that if we are going to have "1984" and Orwellian News speak, then the sooner the better. The more the public has a chance to become accustomed to it, the less is our chances of throwing  it off.

If we are going to be ambushed, I would rather trigger the shooting early, before the ambushers are completely ready. 

Better early than permanent.

369 Mallamutt, Keyes ran for the presidency as well. He left the GOP to do so.

370

Keyes ran against Obama for the United States Senate, which does not have a natural born citizen requirement. The Constitution only requires 9 years citizenship, be 30 years old and live in the state they were elected from (which, may have actually been a challenge for Keyes).

 

Keyes has no standing to sue Obama over his election to the Presidency because Keyes was not running against Obama for the office of President. Thus, his “injury” is, at best speculative.

 

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 11:25 AM (OWjjx)

Does not one have to be a US Citizen at least to run for Senate? If it cannot be proven that Barack is even a citizen, then Keyes should have a legitimate cause of action, If he Lost to a British citizen in an Election requiring American Citizenship that is. .

Yeah, it's far fetched, but till proof is forth coming that barack even has American Citizenship.

I'm not terribly interested in this challenge, I am more interested in Mario Apuzo's et al challenge that NONE of the candidates were "Natural Born Citizens." That case has yet to be dismissed, last I checked.

371

If some real proof had been presented, I would say you are correct on him being a citizen, but given that the Meaning of Article II "Natural Born Citizen" appears to require TWO citizen parents, He still cannot comply with the Constitutional requirement, even if he IS a 14th Amendment citizen. 

Aha.. ok, well I see the problem here then.  No, the phrase Natural Born Citizen is not interpreted to mean that only someone born of two citizen parents is considered a natural born citizen.  The Supreme Court ruled on this very point, in fact, in 1898 in US vrs Kim Ark.

The court found that the Constitution did not make a clear delination between who was considered a natural born citizen and who was considered a citizen, nor what the differences between the two terms should be as a matter of law.

As they most often did in cases like this, they settled the dispute by referring to English Common law.  In the majority opinion they noted:

"It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established."

So, as far as the Supreme Court decision on the subject, anyone born in the United States is considered a natural born citizen of the United States, unless "the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born".

Since I think it can be easily proven that Hawaii was not overrun by a foriegn power at the time, about all that leaves you with is if Obama's parents were either a "ambassador or diplomatic agent of a foreign state".

It's my understanding that Obama's father was a student at the time of Barky's birth, so according to the Supreme Court that makes Obama, sadly enough, a "natural born citizen" according to legal precedent.  Sad, but true.

372

Because I've never seen such evidence, for one.  By all means, present.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 11:33 AM (e8T35)

Okay, where can I send it? Or where can we discuss it? This thread will most likely be dead shortly, and I've got a lot of stuff to present. (All contemporary documents from our Nations founding era. )

As I mentioned before, I frequent Talk-Polywell.org. I'm perfectly willing to start a thread there outlining the proof.

373 398 Mallamutt, Keyes ran for the presidency as well. He left the GOP to do so.

Posted by: Penfold at August 20, 2010 11:43 AM (1PeEC)

That's what I was thinking, but I couldn't remember for sure. Rather than let my memory fail me and have Mallamutt mock me for another silly mistake on a tangential issue, I decided to let it go.

So Mallamutt, does Presidential Candidate Alan Keyes have injury? If Donifrio and Apuzzo are correct, Alan Keyes might be the only LEGITIMATE candidate! That would be hillarious!

374

Keyes has no standing to sue Obama over his election to the Presidency because Keyes was not running against Obama for the office of President. Thus, his “injury” is, at best speculative.

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 11:25 AM (OWjjx)

First of all, you are wrong about everything to so with Keyes' case. Secondly, any voter should have standing to demand proof of eligibility of candidates, but that aisde, Keyes ran in the California Presidential election, which was the basis of his suit. He wanted the California electors enjoined from proceeding until eligibility was established.

375

It's my understanding that Obama's father was a student at the time of Barky's birth, so according to the Supreme Court that makes Obama, sadly enough, a "natural born citizen" according to legal precedent.  Sad, but true.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 11:52 AM (e8T35)

Oy.  Incorrect.  Wildly so.

376 Aha.. ok, well I see the problem here then.  No, the phrase Natural Born Citizen is not interpreted to mean that only someone born of two citizen parents is considered a natural born citizen.  The Supreme Court ruled on this very point, in fact, in 1898 in US vrs Kim Ark.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 11:52 AM (e8T35)

No they didn't. The held that Wong Kim Ark was a "Citizen." (under the 14th Amendment, not article II.) Not that he was a "Natural Born Citizen."
That issue was not addressed.


As they most often did in cases like this, they settled the dispute by referring to English Common law.  In the majority opinion they noted:

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 11:52 AM (e8T35)

I can steer you to several quotes from the founders that assert they did not, and would not, follow English common law. They specifically rejected it's assertion of "natural born subject" instead using Vatell's "Natural Born Citizen." As one of them said, English common law asserts the authority of the Clergy! We do not follow English Common law. " (or some such. I have to check my links to get the exact wording. )

Seriously, this issue cannot be argued in just a few messages. You need to take a look at the entire aspect of the founding era to get a good understanding for the meaning of the terms they used.

The Natural born Citizen clause is derived from Vatell's Law of Nations, and the Founders were known to have possessed this book during deliberations on government, because they wrote a letter thanking some Frenchman for the loan of the copies they used for that purpose. As a matter of fact, George Washington's overdue book which recently made the news was "The Law of Nations" by Vatell.

Designate a place, and when I get time, I'll present you with references from the founding era. I have to go now. I'll check back in an hour or so.

377 Apuzzo's case got tossed and the dismissal upheld by the Third Circuit sometime in late July 2010.

378

First of all, you are wrong about everything to so with Keyes' case. Secondly, any voter should have standing to demand proof of eligibility of candidates, but that aisde, Keyes ran in the California Presidential election, which was the basis of his suit. He wanted the California electors enjoined from proceeding until eligibility was established.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 20, 2010 12:06 PM (5TNVe)

OH MY GOD! He's made a mistake! Beat him to death and mock him for it!  Question his competence on everything else!  

Later dudes.

379

Unless there is some new math that shows that adding these 3 states together = 270.

 

Because even if Obama is thrown off the ballot, even if Keyes wins all the states he is on, he fails to get to 270

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 12:10 PM (OWjjx)

That's not how it works.  Keyes' "injury" was in Califrornia. Period.  Other states didn't matter to his case.  But thanks for another pile of falsehoods in your argument.  It's quite a collection you are accumulating.

380

As I mentioned before, I frequent Talk-Polywell.org. I'm perfectly willing to start a thread there outlining the proof.

Okdoke.. never been there myself but I'll see about signing in later today. 

381

No they didn't. The held that Wong Kim Ark was a "Citizen." (under the 14th Amendment, not article II.) Not that he was a "Natural Born Citizen."
That issue was not addressed.

Well, yes, actually it was addressed.   

The full decision can be found here.

It's addressed fairly clearly and completely in the section "Cockburn on Nationality, 7."

382

I can steer you to several quotes from the founders that assert they did not, and would not, follow English common law.

Umm.. hmm..

In all states except Louisiana (which is based on the French civil code), the common law of England was adopted as the general law of the state, except when a statute provides otherwise.

383

That is how it works. To have standing you have to have a real injury or damage, not some theoretical injury or damage. Keyes has no injury, he can not win. It falls into the so what category.

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 12:27 PM (OWjjx)

So, by your theory, California could have just refused to allow Keyes on the ballot, or just omitted placing him there, and he would have no injury - since he was only on the ballots of a couple of other states and couldn't possibly win, so he would have no recourse.  Okey doke.  You are one stunning intellect, there.

BTW, electors can vote for anyone, so Keyes doesn't even have to be on any ballots to be able to win the Presidency ... except, of course, that you have declared that he couldn't win.  Period.  You are omniscient that way, I guess.

384

 

Because even if Obama is thrown off the ballot, even if Keyes wins all the states he is on, he fails to get to 270

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 12:10 PM (OWjjx)

Yes, it would seem so. Still, it was a very funny idea for a moment.

385 407 Apuzzo's case got tossed and the dismissal upheld by the Third Circuit sometime in late July 2010.

Posted by: Penfold at August 20, 2010 12:11 PM (1PeEC)

Ah, what was the reason for dismissal?

386

But, I believe I have answered your question about standing with Keyes.

 

But, unlike some people, I will admit my mistake and confess, that yes, I had forgotten that Alan Keyes ran for President in 3 states in 2008.

 

That puts me in the same category of about 99.9999% of the population who forgot Alan Keyes ran as well.

 Posted by: Diogenese Anal Beads at August 20, 2010 12:23 PM (OWjjx)

ha ha ha.. i've pissed them off to the point they are sockpuppeting now!

It's all irrelevant to the point. It's still an injury. If Keyes was the only legitimate candidate, then He's that much further ahead of the other three. The legal system THRIVES on stupid technicalities.

387

Mr. Keyes, if I grant the relief you sought, is there a possibility that you can be President. No, why, you do not have enough ballot access. So, if I deny your request what damage will be done to youÂ…Â….none.

 

Judges decide cases on reality, not internet theory.

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 12:27 PM (OWjjx)

If he is granted relief, he is substantially ahead on the electoral votes than is his disqualified opponents. Keyes might not have 270, but the other guys have ZERO.  

388

But, unlike some people, I will admit my mistake and confess, that yes, I had forgotten that Alan Keyes ran for President in 3 states in 2008.

 

That puts me in the same category of about 99.9999% of the population who forgot Alan Keyes ran as well.

 Posted by: Diogenese Anal Beads at August 20, 2010 12:23 PM (OWjjx)

Actually, I admitted my mistake and confessed as well. Does that sort of thing only redeem you, or does it apply to me as well?

389

Judges decide cases on reality, not internet theory.

 

Posted by: Mallamutt at August 20, 2010 12:27 PM (OWjjx)

Yeah, like Kelo, and Roe V. Wade.

390

Well, yes, actually it was addressed.   

The full decision can be found here.

It's addressed fairly clearly and completely in the section "Cockburn on Nationality, 7."

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 12:50 PM (e8T35)

Only if you accept the premise that American Law was based on English common law regarding this issue. I have information available to demonstrate that it most certainly was not.

The United States used English law where it was not Superceded by American law, and the "Natural Born Citizen" clause is just such an example. British law gives us the British rules for "Subjects." There was no such thing as a "Natural Born Citizen" under British law, only Subjects. The Distinction is the King claimed your allegiance whether you wanted to give it or not, and it behooved him to make his claim on your allegiance as easy as possible, therefore every possible excuse was used to assert authority over you as a British Subject.

American Law is quite different in this regard. You may voluntarily renounce your citizenship, whereas in English law you cannot. 

391

In all states except Louisiana (which is based on the French civil code), the common law of England was adopted as the general law of the state, except when a statute provides otherwise.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 01:04 PM (e8T35)

Yes, and the meaning of Citizenship and "Natural Born Citizen" is just such an example where American law does not follow English common law.

392

Only if you accept the premise that American Law was based on English common law regarding this issue. I have information available to demonstrate that it most certainly was not.

English Common law was adopted by all states other than LA, as I mentioned above.  That is why so many Supreme Court Desicions will cite English Common Law, most often when they are trying to establish a clear meaning for words and phrases.

393

Yes, it would seem so. Still, it was a very funny idea for a moment.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at August 20, 2010 01:27 PM (eVJ7T)

BTW, electors can vote for anyone, so Keyes doesn't even have to be on any ballots to be able to win the Presidency ... except, of course, that you have declared that he couldn't win.  Period.  You are omniscient that way, I guess.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 20, 2010 01:11 PM (5TNVe)

After further consideration... What He said! 

394

Yes, and the meaning of Citizenship and "Natural Born Citizen" is just such an example where American law does not follow English common law.

Only if you can cite a specific state statute that says preciesly that - otherwise, I'm afraid I'll have to be the one who has to inform you that you are incorrect.

395

English Common law was adopted by all states other than LA, as I mentioned above.  That is why so many Supreme Court Desicions will cite English Common Law, most often when they are trying to establish a clear meaning for words and phrases.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 01:45 PM (e8T35)

Again, only in cases where it is not superseded by American Law. The "Natural Born Citizen" Clause is a case where the English law was rejected.

As one founder said, ( The English Law also brings with it the Clergy!)

Apart from that, I can demonstrate that English Law was changed (around 1647 I think) to make all children who are fathered by Englishmen, automatically English subjects, even if they were born overseas. I'll see if I can find it amongst the documents I have saved.

396 428

Yes, and the meaning of Citizenship and "Natural Born Citizen" is just such an example where American law does not follow English common law.

Only if you can cite a specific state statute that says preciesly that - otherwise, I'm afraid I'll have to be the one who has to inform you that you are incorrect.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 01:46 PM (e8T35)

The Statute is Article II of the US Constitution. The meaning of the Words were well known at the time and needed not be spelled out further in Article II. As we have forgotten what those words mean nowadays, we must look for their meaning in their usage by the founders. It can be demonstrated that the Founders used the Vatell definition of the term, and that Blackstone did not even address the term. Englishmen were Subjects, not independent citizens. 

I am telling you, Read what the founders wrote before you decide that you know what that Clause means. I'll start posting a thread over at Talk-Polywell sometime today. I'm being pressed for time at the moment.

397

Again, only in cases where it is not superseded by American Law. The "Natural Born Citizen" Clause is a case where the English law was rejected.

By ... whom?  Where?  Which  statute?  And why wasn't it mentioned as such in a Supreme Court Decision which clearly cites the exact opposite? 

I'm sorry, but your arguing yourself in a circle here.  The Supreme Court cites this english common law as being valid. It states that just as in english common law it was the judgement of the court that any citizen born in the United States is considered a naturalized citizen with only two exceptions, as previously mentioned.

You keep saying "except where it's superceded by American law", to which I keep asking which  statute supercedes it?  Then you circle back to your original premise.  Sorry to be the one to tell you here, but your wrong.  The Supreme Court has said your wrong by setting such precedent and citing English Common law that is direct and on point.

Look, the crux of this is simple.  I don't like barky much either.  I'm certainly not in his fan club.  I don't think he's even remotely qualified to be President of the United States.

But as a matter of law this citizenship argument?  Well all the real legal precedent goes counter to your claim.  It would take a direct ruling of the Supreme Court on the issue to override this, and frankly, that simply isn't going to happen.

 

398

By ... whom?  Where?  Which  statute?  And why wasn't it mentioned as such in a Supreme Court Decision which clearly cites the exact opposite? 

 

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 02:05 PM (e8T35)

By the Founders, during the years preceding and following the Ratification of the US Constitution.

Your argument boils down to a fallacy called "Appeal to Authority."

Whether the Supreme court says this or that does not prove their interpretation correct. You need to start with first principals, and argue upward, not with a decree and argue downward.

I will address this when I get a chance, Right now I have to go enroll my Youngest in School, so i'll be gone for awhile.

399

The Statute is Article II of the US Constitution.

<sigh>

Ok, no, again I must point out this is wrong.   The meaning of the words in Article II are the point of the debate.  No where does it state in Article II that the term "natural born citizen" is "not defined the same as in English Common law" or anything remotely close. 

It doesn't define the term.  Now you can come up with all sorts of quotes I'm sure about what various people thought this should mean.. but none of those people really ever codified that into Law.

There is no statute I am aware of, no law made prior to the Supreme Court Decision previously mentioned that supercedes English Common Law in this area.  As with most decisions where English Common law is cited, those areas that obviously do not apply (such as referal to people as subjects) are addressed and rejected by the court.

As a matter of legal precedent your, well, to put it indelicately your screwing the pooch on this one.  You literally have no case.

 

400

I'm sorry, but your arguing yourself in a circle here.  The Supreme Court cites this english common law as being valid. It states that just as in english common law it was the judgement of the court that any citizen born in the United States is considered a naturalized citizen with only two exceptions, as previously mentioned.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 02:05 PM (e8T35)

You mean "natural born citizen".  Chester Arthur must feel like a real fool.  It's a shame you weren't around to advise him that having a non-citizen father (a Brit) was no impediment to his Presidential aspirations.  He could have saved all that time and effort hiding and destroying his documents.

401

Whether the Supreme court says this or that does not prove their interpretation correct. You need to start with first principals, and argue upward, not with a decree and argue downward.

Ok, well, I'll put through one last ditch effort and see if this clarifies things for you.

The Supreme Court is specifically given the power to interpret the law in the Constitution.  The Supreme Court has looked at this and set a precedent based on English Common Law as to what the term natural born citizen means.

Now, you are well within your rights to disagree with their opinion, but as a matter of law their opinion stands and can only be overridden by another SCOTUS opinion or a Constitutional Amendment, period.

There is no wiggle room there I'm afraid.  So, as I stated before, as a matter of law, you have no case.

402

You mean "natural born citizen". 

Yes, in point of fact I did mean natural born citizen as opposed to naturalized citizen.  Hopefully the point is still clear enough, as it obviously still stands.

Chester Arthur must feel like a real fool.  It's a shame you weren't around to advise him

Well, I'm sure if he caught enough law and order episodes he could have figured it out for himself.

403 The fundamental flaw of the eligibility argument is that it is based on the premise that Democrats can be made to follow the rules.

Nobody really believes that, you can only overwhelm them, you can't make them behave properly. HELLO, MCFLY!

I mean, come on.  Did the other 140 scandals affect Obama? Not really.

404 Okay, I started the thread over at Talk-Polwell. Thread title is "If they are the same, why use different terms? "

405

As a matter of legal precedent your, well, to put it indelicately your screwing the pooch on this one.  You literally have no case.

 

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 02:15 PM (e8T35)

You have astonishing powers of prognostication to know something so certainly without having even looked at the contradicting evidence! If you are that brilliant, I am outclassed and the whole point of demonstrating evidence is moot. If that is the case, then I suggest it will save us both a lot of time to not bother.

If that BE the case, then my original complaint about not being ABLE to present any evidence will be correct after all. 

It sounds like you're telling me I don't have "Standing."

406

The Supreme Court is specifically given the power to interpret the law in the Constitution.  The Supreme Court has looked at this and set a precedent based on English Common Law as to what the term natural born citizen means.

Now, you are well within your rights to disagree with their opinion, but as a matter of law their opinion stands and can only be overridden by another SCOTUS opinion or a Constitutional Amendment, period.

There is no wiggle room there I'm afraid.  So, as I stated before, as a matter of law, you have no case.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 02:28 PM (e8T35)

You are asserting that they speak "Ex Cathedra". (meaning that they cannot be wrong.)  While the law follows whatever dictate they decree, this is a self fulfilling circumstance. The law is whatever they say it was, because they say so.

This does not address the philosophical question of whether they are indeed correct. We all know the Supreme Court NEVER makes mistakes. (Scott Vs. Sanford.)

Why we owe all sorts of our new found rights (Abortion) to the notion that the Supreme court Never makes mistakes. What was their reasoning on the Last Abortion ruling? "Stare Decisis" ?

For those of you that don't have familiarity with this Latin phrase, it means "Shut the Fuck Up! We've made our decision and we don't care WHAT the facts are! "

Forgive me, but I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme court, and it has been my observation that we have gotten into our wretched state as a result of accepting actual bullshit as valid legal principles. 

What I ask for is an open mind, that can weigh evidence for himself.

The fact of their power to enforce does not equate to their being factually correct. Why not look at the evidence and then decide if they have said what you think they said, and then further, if they are indeed correct in their interpretation?

407

Well, I'm sure if he caught enough law and order episodes he could have figured it out for himself.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at August 20, 2010 02:46 PM (e8T35)

Is that what your legal understanding is based on? Doesn't the liberal side always win on those shows?

408 437 The fundamental flaw of the eligibility argument is that it is based on the premise that Democrats can be made to follow the rules.

Nobody really believes that, you can only overwhelm them, you can't make them behave properly. HELLO, MCFLY!

I mean, come on.  Did the other 140 scandals affect Obama? Not really.

Posted by: Merovign, Strong on His Mountain at August 20, 2010 03:38 PM (bxiXv)

This is actually the best argument i've heard so far regarding the lack of concern on this issue. But we ought to make an effort to abide by the rules, and we should do what we can to MAKE them abide by the rules.

409 The whole birther thing is just mental masturbation.  There will be no action on it.  Ever.

Watching paint dry would be more interesting.

410

There now, you see? ^That is what happens when ASoQ is late with their morning thread.

 

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