1 yo

2

I was there Saturday with my family, and Sarah rocked the place. Next Pres if she wants it, king maker if she doesn't.

Just sayin'

3 Any time we give people a clear choice between conservative and liberal policies at the national level they choose the conservative ones. It is when they try and toe a moderate course that Republicans lose.

Compare 2002, 2004 with 2006, 2008. In the former the Reps ran as conservatives, in the latter as moderates.

In fact, looking at Presidents, the last time a candidate viewed by the electorate as a conservative lost the presidency was 1964.

4 Time for another Levi Johnson magazine cover and 60 minutes interview.

5 Compare 2002, 2004 with 2006, 2008. In the former the Reps ran as conservatives, in the latter as moderates.

Not really.  In 06-08 they ran as conservatives.  The problem was the way they governed for 02-04.

6 I only lied about lying, or wait..........shit I can't keep it straight. Just shoot the picture.

7 Slowly... accepting... the inevitable.

8 Well in 2006 and 2008 the Dems ran as conservatives too.

9 Is the Obama administration staying abreast of this breaking news?  Has Levi been consulted?

10

Republicans who are Palin skeptics always make me wonder. 

A genuine rock star in the party - who would camp overnight to get a book signed by, oh, I dunno - Tim Pawlenty?  Mitt Romney?  

And real outsider cred.  She won governor by defeating a corrupt Republican - that's why I think the establish dislikes her.  Actually, that's why I hope they dislike her.  If its just disdain for her college, then eff the lot of them. 

 

11
Zogby?  Seriously, that's who is running the GOP campaign going into September?

Idiots.

12 >>>Republicans who are Palin skeptics always make me wonder. >>>A genuine rock star in the party - who would camp overnight to get a book signed by, oh, I dunno - Tim Pawlenty? Mitt Romney? But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

13 Releasing the Palin does the same for my second Chakra. Just sayin'. Cordially...

14

Democrats aren't sitting this one out.

This is only one small example, but I wonder if it's indicative of a larger, largely silent strategy.

15 After all, Palin failed to come up in politics the accepted feminist way - by having a powerful father (Pelosi), or a powerful husband (Clinton). How dare she!

16 I'm just waiting for the right moment, baby.

17

Zogby be-clowns himself when he says that half the independents lean HEAVILY towards Obama and the Democrats ...  Really ???  not in any recent poll anywhere except California, Mass and NY ...

he is working off of 2 year old data ...

keep thinking like that Dems ...

 

 

18 I say lets start impeachment proceedings as soon as we take over both house and senate. President Biden sounds like a great opponent for SaraCuda. And seriously, Biden would be a better president than Barky or the Pantsuit, so it's a win-win to me.

19 Republicans who are Palin skeptics always make me wonder.

>>>A genuine rock star in the party - who would camp overnight to get a book signed by, oh, I dunno - Tim Pawlenty? Mitt Romney?

But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

Posted by: ace

 

Can she do what Obama and co did? Obtain and hold a base and then slowly, steadily gain a majority? My thought is that she can make inroads to the various female demographics, she can.

 

My concern is that she will be similar to George W. Bush, and never make sufficient inroads with the chattering classes, and thus die the death of a thousand cuts that Bush suffered.

20 A Liberal sarah Palin? Hilarious. Her most appealing aspect is her straightforwardness and ability to cut to the chase. To be a Lib, one must obfuscate, lie and distract. You can't make much of a personal connection with people when you're not being honest. Still, I'll keep an eye out for the MSM declaring some female forty-something Lib drone as the big new thing for the Dems. Bet they can't find a hot one.

21 But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. 43% works once in a while as well.

22 when she [Shrillary] behaves like a fierce competitor, she is compared to Glenn Close’s bunny-boiling virago from “Fatal Attraction.”

Glenn Close would have been able to correctly translate 'reset' into Russian before presenting a mock nuclear button to our Cold War enemy (which has been slipping rapidly back into that pose).  That 'reset/overcharged' button will go down as one of the dumbest public moments in all of recorded history.

Shrillary is just a retard. Women should be truly embarrassed by her.  She is the female Indonesian Imbecile.

23 In related news, Levi Johnston Discovered a Bed Bug Attached to His Scrotum, Claims Sarah Palin Is To Blame.

24

What the writers seem to lament, without realizing it, is that there are no brash female liberal leaders.

The leftards should try a girl in a crab suit.  That always works.

25 Save us Levi Johnson, you're our only hope.

26

"Can she do what Obama and co did? Obtain and hold a base and then slowly, steadily gain a majority? My thought is that she can make inroads to the various female demographics, she can."

Not without the media.  And that ain't gonna happen..

27 “It is important to be reminded just who the ‘independents’ are. Almost half of them describe themselves as politically moderate and lean heavily toward President Obama and the Democrats.”

I didn't need a John Zogby to tell me that.

28

What the writers seem to lament, without realizing it, is that there are no brash female liberal leaders.

If by "brash" you mean a buffet-raiding porker, yo!

29 Bet they can't find a hot one.

Ya know, that Susan Estrich is jaw droppingly beautiful.


_{yes, early morning gag.}

30 For Pete"s sake, she"s an Alaskan woman. We do not sit  meekly by while others take care of us. We do our own dirty work. If that makes us feminists, then that must be what we are, but we have not forgotten that we are women and not men, and the feminazis cannot figure that one out. As usual, liberals are idiots.

If you want it done, then do it, and quit whining that nobody else is doing it for you.

31 But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

Posted by: ace at August 30, 2010 11:19 AM (QbA6l)

People have seen how Palin has been one of the big dogs in many of the major fights over the past 19 months, and how she has been kicking ass every step of the way.  Anyone who thinks she would have any problems doing the actual job of the Presidency either hasn't been paying attention or is just unable to understand the simplest and most obvious facts.

What is truly amazing are people who see Palin have win after win, but still give her long odds in the next battle, no matter what it is.

32 "If its just disdain for her college"

You'd be sadly surprised.

Real establishment figures hate her as a threat, yes, but there are a lot of people who mirror their dislike without being employed by the party/lobbying apparatus.

I think it's because she represents the full populist takeover of the conservative movement and the GOP.  Remember, it wasn't too long ago that these were strongly associated (and even perhaps *about*) defending non-egalitarian elements of the social order from encroaching left-populism.

The counter-narrative she represents -- that (lefty) "elites" are actually naive, stupid, and incompetent, if not actively malicious -- is doubly threatening.  If you're doing well in one of these elite milieus (in a fancy city job after an Ivy degree or two), you may not want to consider that the institutions, people, and credential-valuing mores that helped your flourish are essentially hollow and worthless.

33 But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job.

I don't know, that last guy to win an election managed to pull it off.  Strictly because he wasn't Bush.

34 Damnit.

35 The only thing missing from this Zogby pole is a noose.

36 I agree with all he said except for one thing, the independents. It has always been my contention that there really isn't that many true independents. Sure, there are a lot of people who are not registered with either Party, especially in States that have open primaries. But almost all of these people routinely vote for one of the major parties. For example, I would be counted as an independent, but I almost always vote for the Republican via the straight party ticket. I have NEVER voted for the Democrats.

I fully suspect that most independents are like that.

As for the Republican leadership, they have always been of the Rockefeller squish variety. We have perpetually ran "moderate" candidates because it was "their turn". What's more, the damn primary rules are set up to push the "moderates" by giving Blue States the first shot out of the gun. Up until this year they also had a winner take all system. Front loading the liberal States and winner take all almost guaranteed a RINO in the lead early and it was essentially over before most States even got to vote. They somewhat fixed that this year, but not completely.

And I still say that Palin is not going to run in 2012. Right now what we should be doing is concentrating on this fall anyway.

37 @18 If Obama was impeached & convicted by a Republican Congress, Pelosi would no longer be Speaker and therefore not 2nd in line anymore. I assume it would be Boehner.

38 "But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job."

Nonsense.  You just have to convince 50+% of those who turn out that you'll do better than the other guy.

Sarah will run against and thrash the most despised incumbent President in modern history.

39 Good post

40 Something worth reading at the Daily Capitalist.  Jeff dissects an inane political cartoon to show how truly dishonest and vapid it really is.
http://tinyurl.com/26gatnw

41

But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

I agree. She would be much more helpful as head of the RNC.

If she runs in the primary, I won't vote for her, simply because I do not believe she has a shot at winning.

I think she can help the party is so many ways that don't involved her running for office again.

42 My concern is that she will be similar to George W. Bush, and never make sufficient inroads with the chattering classes, and thus die the death of a thousand cuts that Bush suffered.

One of my biggest issues with W was that he would ignore the hell out of whatever the media wanted to say about him.  Sarah doesn't have that problem.

43

Palin was too nice for her own good in the beginning.  She was under the (mistaken) impression that the chattering classes would welcome her to the 2008 race, but the cc had already settled on Obama as their fav.  So the cc sent out their corps of mean girls to destroy her (Tina Fey, Couric, the whiners on the view, etc).

It's a tightrope to walk as a girl, can't be too mean, can't be too nice, can't be too pretty, can't be too ugly (cankles anyone?), can't dress too shabbily (snowbilly) or too nicely (oh remember the flack about the Palin wardrobe?).

That's why the major female politicos have all had a daddy or husband somewhere nearby to pave the way.  Palin is going it alone and paving the way, the dim dem girls can sense that and it makes them jealous. 

44 What someone said!

45 Like it or not, Palin is damaged goods.  If Dan Quayle emerged and articulated the most thoughtful, conservative agenda, it would be a mistake to run him.  The MFM permanently destroyed him.  I think they permanently destroyed Palin.  To a probably insurmountable majority, she's "Dan Quayle with t*ts."  It's a shame but true. 

46

I say lets start impeachment proceedings as soon as we take over both house and senate.

Yeah, worked out great for Republicans in '98. The public just loved the idea, didn't they?

47 Oh, and the glasses give Sarah a little something extra in the hotness department.

48

You know who this helps?

49 What Palin is doing right now is the most effective role for her.

When she quit her governorship, I speculated that she would become a kingmaker and that's exactly what she's done.

Her continuous sniping at Obama has taken a toll on him. She's able to work her messaging into the general consciousness like no other current GOP strategist, columnist, or thinker.

I hope she doesn't run. She's too big of a target. I don't want her as an insider. I want her on the fringes, advancing the conservative agenda without being seen as a party loyalist.

50 I hope she doesn't run. She's too big of a target. I don't want her as an insider. I want her on the fringes, advancing the conservative agenda without being seen as a party loyalist. Posted by: Warden at August 30, 2010 11:39 AM (fE6tn) I agree and think that is her most effective role. Go Sarah.

51

I say lets start impeachment proceedings as soon as we take over both house and senate.

Yeah, worked out great for Republicans in '98. The public just loved the idea, didn't they?

Yeah, elections are the best way to destroy someone or any ideology. Nothing stings like an electoral defeat.

trials and impeachment stick on illegitimate party politics, whether warranted or not.

Focus on beating him in 2012. That doesn't mean you don't investigate things if you take back the house and senate, just don't try to impeach him. Impeachment needs to be saved for extremely serious situations. We don't need impeachment proceedings to become common in America.

There was one attempt in the first 230 years of american history, we don't need to go for two in the past 12 years.

52 Right now....I don't think she is running.

BUT, if she starts to travel overseas in the coming year...giving speeches and such....all bets are off.

53
Forget about Sarah running for president. Neber gonna happen. Forget it.

Mrs Palin would rather be the next Rush Limbaugh than be the next president.

Sarah wants to 1) be free to speak her mind, and 2) make money. There's nothing more to it. She'll never be on another presidential ticket.

54 Yeah, I think Sarah is better off in the Patton role. Let her roll the tanks through the enemy ranks.

55 52 Impeachment needs to be saved for extremely serious situations.

Excuse me as I clean up my monitor, my brain having exploded from wondering what situation could possibly be more serious than the current mass of malfeasance, incompetence, and potential treason.

56

There is one other problem for a would-be liberal woman candidate...the left's message still sucks!!

You can have a strong woman out there pitching the message, but if it's not what we want to hear, then you're going to lose. 

Sarah Palin is a strong woman who is pitching the right message, especially in the current socio-economic climate.  It helps that she's attractive and is able to connect with everyday folks, but if she was pushing more socialism, I don't think the same group of 'swing' voters would be following.

Hillary?  Shit message.  And fugly.  With cankles, and cackles.

57 Bill "I did not have sex with that woman" Clinton was the second POTUS to be impeached. Andrew Johnson was the first. He was Lincoln's veep when Honest Abe was assassinated.

58 I have to assume Palin will at least dip her toe in the primary waters. Pretty hard to resist the tens of millions in campaign donations she could undoubtedly generate. Not to mention that the moment she declares she's not running, her power to drive other candidates in her direction is greatly diminished. I like her in her current role, but it'll take a lot of willpower to say no to the people clamoring for her to run.

59 Arguing is pointless (because it's inevitable), but I think tea-sympathizers (insert Deborah Kerr joke here) who oppose a Palin candidacy are naive.  In 2010 she is able to be the central figure on the right because there's no incumbent Republican President to protect and rally around.  The nomination of any other person with the resources to run in 2012 will mean the re-marginalization of the Tea Party reformist faction in national GOP politics.

60 So staying “on message”—especially on the need for fiscal conservatism—is more likely to win their vote than a Republican lurch to the center. And since any such lurch will have the inevitable effect of driving the base to distraction, I see the GOP embracing a version of the Palin-Tea Party message. Maybe I'm missing something, Tunku, but I don't see much evidence of this in the GOP. Not in governance. With the notable exception of Chris "Brian Dennehy" Christie, who is hardly an establishment Republican. I agree with Vic: And I still say that Palin is not going to run in 2012. Right now what we should be doing is concentrating on this fall anyway.

61 I love thinking of the time, energy, and money that the media, libs and Dems (but I repeat myself) are expending taking her down.  If there were a Republican frontrunner, they'd already be whittling him/her down.  If Sarah takes the heat until the last minute, then simply gives an endorsement?  Win.

62

Yeah, worked out great for Republicans in '98. The public just loved the idea, didn't they?

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at August 30, 2010 11:38 AM (SCcgT)

and they actually had a reason to impeach Clinton

63 ace- But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

A doomed strategy for what?  It's a disaster that Sarah Palin can whip up 25%-30% of the US voting population as their choice for a 2012 presidential candidate as a private citizen more than two years before Nov. 2012?  How many men and women considering a run in the upcoming cycle would give various body parts for those kind of numbers?  And she hasn't announced a run for any office.

Sarah Palin is an anomaly.  She has been in a de facto presidential campaign since the publication of her book Going Rogue.  People see her now as a likely presidential candidate and judge her accordingly. Every 2012 poll of potential GOP candidates consistently gives her a 5%-10% undecided result - nearly everyone has an opinion about Sarah Palin - and that's more than a year before the 2012 primary season starts.

64 Ace, thats what a campaign is for. Guess how many TV campaign ads she has run promoting herself? ZERO. The only one that comes close is the internet Mamma Grizzly ad which was even praised by many liberal journalists like Mark Halperin. An actual campaign, ads, and debates will change the numbers you fret about it. Media loves to focus on how people do not think she is qualified to be President, but the funny thing is she is not far behind in the polls on that question when compared to Obama AND HE IS PRESIDENT! If you like polls, then some polls show Palin TIED with Obama. So think about it, if her numbers on qualifications are this "bad" and yet she is still tied whats going to happen when she makes her case in debates and slick ads? A debate with her and Obama will be seen by 70 million plus. Finally, our candidate will not be the biggest issue in terms of winning or losing anyway. Obama's election performance in 2012 will basically track his job approval rating. If his job approval is below 50 then Palin, Romney, Gingrich etc all have a chance. If it is below 47, They win. If it is below 45, we might have a Reagan situation. God bless ya!

65

54 She HAD to make money to pay the legal bills in defending herself from partisan scurrilous frivolous malfesant suits and attacks.

Regardless, I'm all for people using their gifts and talents to make money. I'm not a marxist.

66 Posted by: ace at August 30, 2010 11:19 AM (QbA6l)

They need to be whipped into a froth so that they remain energized and vote at the greatest rate possible. The trick is to keep the core happy and engaged, while saying things to intrigue the middle. Palin has been doing this a bit better recently, no doubt because of her experience over the past two years.

Can she expand her message to draw that extra 2% that the republican party needs to retake the White House? Yes, but it will be a difficult thing. She has so polarized the country (fairly or unfairly -- it doesn't matter) in the eyes of the MSM that changing that paradigm will be tough.

The problem with many conservatives (me included) is that compared to Obama, she is Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater all wrapped up in a nice looking package. Emotionally that is very satisfying, but intellectually it is not realistic.

67 Nice add-on to the post, btw.

"As the establishment has become more feminized, it has also become risk-averse, to the point where no one working within it can really be any kind of gutsy maverick."

Best example, of course, is to look at the guy they actually consider a "Maverick"...

68 I dunno, I think letting the media pick our candidate is a pretty fucking bad idea.

69 out stupid dead sock

70 >>The nomination of any other person with the resources to run in 2012 will mean the re-marginalization of the Tea Party reformist faction in national GOP politics.

Not if that other person is whole-heartedly endorsed by Palin.

71

A full-throated, feminist Democrat for President would have the same shortcomings as a big city, liberal African American for President: their political/cultural views and associates are unsavory and unappealing to mainstream Americans.*

And I can't believe that THIS is what liberals take away from the Palin Experience. They think she is popular because she plays up her gender? Maybe when under particularly harsh attack from a male critic. But usually her gender, um, speaks for itself. Pretty loudly.

* Obama survived this only to the extent the MFM kept these facts from the voters.

72 The problem with Palin not running is that she knows that "movement" conservatism will be coopted by stooges for the Ruling Class like Romney or Pawlenty, even should one of them win. Then all that happens is that Tweedle-Dum takes over for Tweedle-Dee and the NRSC Republicans and K-Street Bandits get the "R" turn at the Hog Trough. Half the reason the whole Cornyn/Boehner crowd is upset with Obama is the fact that "his" clients are getting first dibs at the swag. Palin gets this like few other Republicans in our time. If she sits it out, she gets marginalized, eventually. Reagan didn't sit it out in 1976 and lost to Jerry Ford, who eventually lost to Carter. But Reagan won in the long run by showing that he was willing to fight for the Conservative Cause and was willing to take his fight to the convention and lose. I'm convinced that that is where Palin is going. You have to show that you are wiling to fight, and Palin is wiling to fight. Even if only to lose the first battle, as Reagan did.

73

But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

Well, no, you need to convince a plurality of the people who will be voting of something - not that you can do the job, exactly, as even Obama's supporters knew his biggest asset was HOPE - not competence, or experience, or any of that.  He remained a blank slate so that the "smart people" could project what they wanted on him.  So then they could like him, and hope he would do well, and that was oh so much more important than figuring out whether he could do the job.  Hillary tried that line with her 3 am phone call commercial, and people said, meh, doesn't matter, because he's cool. 

I think the big number the press touts in polling that actually seems to matter, is the question of whether the candidate "cares about people like me."  People projected that on Obama, but find he is actually disdainful of them. 

What is recommended in the article is that a Republican candidate not try androgyny, to not try to pretend that you can project on them whatever.  To carve out a position in bold colors, because, you know what, actually a lot of people agree with those things.  See how many people showed up in DC on 8/28?  I did, because I was there. 

And those kinds of people think that Sarah Palin (and like minded candidates) care about people like them.  McCain?  The okay we'll build the damn fence guy? 

Is there anything in what Palin says that is extreme for the country, much less within the Republican party?  The answer is no.  Is she likely to build a cadre of competent people who will be able to fill in the details of a broad strokes agenda?  I think yes. 

But ultimately, the question I have for Palin skeptics, and to Ace in particular - what value is there in talking her down, and "raising questions?"  Perhaps, if she's really just a correupt moron who is functionally illiterate, we would be better off policing our own so we don't go down with that millstone tied around our necks.  But if she has acceptable ideas, she can raise money, and the base loves her - what value is there in repeating the doubts that others may have about her?

In the end, though, I do not think she will run.  She has her job and that is taking down the GOP establishment.  They know it.

 

 

 

 

 

74 Why won't you people line up behind him? He needs you! My boyfriend needs you!!! Have you signed up for my expensive hosted cruise yet?

75 "Right now....I don't think she is running."

She endorsed Branstad in Iowa over the movement guy.

She's running.

76 Lets see, according to LEGEND; Sarah was elected Mayor and REDUCED the size of government. WOW. Anyone else know of a mayor anywhere that did that? Then was elected over a corrupt republican, and began to clean up Alaska politics and ran rough shod over big oil and got something done. Again, same question. Anyone? Loved the statement that we're seeing bi-partisan support to defund the EPA. Anyone think that Sarah would actually try and do this. YES ... Hell Yes!! anyone think there's enough in the ball sack of any other potential candidate to pull this off?

77 Strange.  In the articles they refered to Ms. Palin and Mrs. Clinton.  Odd choice of terms by a woman journalist.

78 most of the blood seems drained from public life and public ambition. damn vampire meme crops up everywhere.

79 But you can't be elected without convincing 50.1% of the public you can do the job and are right for the job. I am a Palin-skeptic because continuing to only whip up the 25-30% of people who already support her is a doomed strategy.

Posted by: ace at August 30, 2010 11:19 AM (QbA6l)

 

Ace, 

did I miss something?  are we in a national campaign at the moment.  in a mid term the object is to get your base to the polls.   Low turnout means you get your voters to the polls to win.  

80 Strange. In the articles they refered to Ms. Palin and Mrs. Clinton. Odd choice of terms by a woman journalist. Hey, that was a very perspicacious observation. Strong evidence for the tornado of cognitive dissonance whirling in the liberal mind.

81 section9, you put it better than I did.  I agree 100%.

katya, holy cow, you're right!

"In the articles they refered to Ms. Palin and Mrs. Clinton.  Odd choice of terms by a woman journalist."

82

Sometimes I wonder if Palin's (and others) strategy is to stir things up and divert the media's attention to her and the tea parties, etc.  While somewhere in a basement they are prepping the next Ronald Reagan only to be revealed before the media can tear them down. 

Who is this specimen?

 

Tpaw?

Mitch Daniels?

Herman Cain?

Someone we've never heard of like Palin in 2008?

 

83

"Can she do what Obama and co did? Obtain and hold a base and then slowly, steadily gain a majority? My thought is that she can make inroads to the various female demographics, she can."

Not without the media.  And that ain't gonna happen..

But can any true Conservative 'win' with the media?  If we live in fear that they will determine who is worthy, then we might as well pack the coolers and go home.  Because the media will ONLY love a Liberal...ONLY be kind to them.

Or at best, a peeled cucumber sandwich with mayo on white bread in a blizzard whimpy-azzed conservative beta-boy.

The issue is, who can survive in spite of the media
AND what can conservatives do to balance it out- fix it.  Hell, what can conservatives do to fight back!  WE KNOW BETTER NOW!!  

If they can destroy a presidency, then  they're the driving force in US government and real enemy, not the DNC.

84 I hope she doesn't run. She's too big of a target. I don't want her as an insider. I want her on the fringes, advancing the conservative agenda without being seen as a party loyalist.

Posted by: Warden at August 30, 2010 11:39 AM (fE6tn)

I agree with this to an extent but I don't want the MFM dictating who I can vote for.  Maybe I'm being naive.......

85 And they call Pelosi "Ms." too.  Is there some standing directive to always call Hillary "Mrs. Clinton" no matter what!?

86
The Leftwing media will have no trouble at all finding self-described Republicans to put the kibosh on a Palin candidacy. You think the treatment of Nikki Haley was bad? Half the entire GOP establishment will assists the Left in the character assassination of the former governor of Alaska.

Doesn't matter, though. She doesn't want the job.

87 Posted by: angler at August 30, 2010 11:38 AM (SwjAj)

Comparing her to Quayle is beyond stupid.  Quayle slunk away never to be heard from again after his ticket lost.  Half the country doesn't even remember who he is and nobody gives him the time of day.

88 What they hate is her Hawght!

Most "progressive" women have the Kagan look. 

Dog ugly and fat.

89 Ok, who italicized the sidebar?

90

BTW, sorry for the "eliminationist rhetoric" but Palin is gunning for the media, too.  Remember - her degree was in journalism, and she actually was a journalist - a local tv station sportscaster counts. 

She's read their book. 

91 "two in three describe themselves as politically ‘conservative’ but weary of Republicans on issues like spending, civil liberties, and the war in Iraq"

So, you are admitting that the Tea Party is NOT right wing, but is in fact moderate?

92 as a conservative i don't want the RNC dictating who i have to vote for.....

93

Strange. In the articles they refered to Ms. Palin and Mrs. Clinton. Odd choice of terms by a woman journalist.

Hey, that was a very perspicacious observation. Strong evidence for the tornado of cognitive dissonance whirling in the liberal mind.

What is even more interesting is MS. Palin is a woman's woman (unlike Hillary) A mom, an woman with a hunky hubby and a happy marriage and more a Mrs than Hillary will ever be, a woman with a kid in the military, a woman with a special needs child, a woman with a career.

That is interesting.  She's a true pioneer feminist.

94 Last time I looked, the Democrats had a Sarah Palin.

A relative newcomer to national politics who was supposed to be Something New And Different and whose charisma rallied millions.

They managed to get this person elected President in 2009, in part due to the support of an ethnic bloc that turned out more solidly for him than women as a whole ever would for a female candidate.

So any Democrat yelling that they need their own Sarah Palin is really just announcing that their last one has failed.

95
You'll take whoever we give you and you will like it.

96 But can any true Conservative 'win' with the media? If we live in fear that they will determine who is worthy, then we might as well pack the coolers and go home. Love him or hate him, Rush is right about this: The MFM will never, ever, at any time, turn about and treat conservatives fairly or with support. Don't expect it, don't even try to make it happen. That would be trying to scrub the spots off a leopard.

97 Last time I looked, the Democrats had a Sarah Palin. A relative newcomer to national politics who was supposed to be Something New And Different and whose charisma rallied millions. BOOM!

98 I dunno, I think letting the media pick our candidate is a pretty fucking bad idea.

Posted by: Jon McCain

 

Thank you!!!!

99 You folks who think Sarah's not running for President should look at a little Presidential candidate history. She's doing exactly what previous successful candidates for their party's nomination did in the past. Stumoing for candidates she agrees with, helping them win to show she's a winner. Collecting IOUs. And acting as a rainmaker. Though she may ultimately not run, she's setting herself up for the run. She needs to break through the MSM's image barrier if she wants to run for President. Just as Reagan did. The MSM called Reagan a moron and Carter a genius and fooled the public for a while. Eventually, Reagan changed that. The MSM absolutely hated Nixon, and he was absolutely no-one's idea of a charismatic politican, yet even he was able in his wilderness years to do what Palin is doing. She's running BUT she still needs one or two breakthrough moments. The MSM knows this too. That is why they dog her endlessly. If they slack off, she will breakthrough.

100
If Sarah takes the heat until the last minute, then simply gives an endorsement?  Win.

Yep.

101

jem 

Obama was not their Palin.  Palin has experience and guts  two things Obama never had.

 

 

102
Remember SPAULDING from Caddyshack?

He's campaigning for Charlie Baker (R), the candidate for governor of MA against li'l Obama, Deval Patrick.

Spaulding has a good sense of humor and doesn't even mind when people still call him Spaulding. He's now a real estate broker in Cambridge, MA.

103

Strange. In the articles they refered to Ms. Palin and Mrs. Clinton. Odd choice of terms by a woman journalist.

Hey, that was a very perspicacious observation. Strong evidence for the tornado of cognitive dissonance whirling in the liberal mind.

Far be it from me to be a defender of Hillary, but it has always made me angry that her own people don't seem to consider her competent on her own merit.  It's a shame that she will never be anything but Mrs. Bill.

They obviously don't see Palin that way.

104

I agree with this to an extent but I don't want the MFM dictating who I can vote for.  Maybe I'm being naive.......

Posted by: Captain Hate

Well, look, I don't much like it either, but the fact is that they successfully smeared her and she's in a giant hole now with independents and lefties.

I don't want 2012 to become a referendum on how "stupid" and "unqualified" and "white trash" Quitter Sarah Palin is.

It's too much to overcome. It's a distraction from Obama's manifest failings.

I know they'll smear whoever we run, but I don't want someone who's already been successfully trashed. And she has. It sucks, but it's true.

105 #65 was me.  Begone, sock!

106

What they hate is her Hawght!

 What they hate is Todd is studmuffin, he clearly thinks Sarah's hot too and they're having hot sex as evidenced by 5 kids.

Trust me, what gave liberal women across the country comfort was that Hillary was plain and unsexy and had a miserable marriage   If it's OK for her, then it was OK for them.... Marriage isn't supposed to be happy.  Kids aren't supposed to make you happy.  Only work and a career.  Hillary was the poster child for "All I have is this crummy job."

Worst of all, Sarah is happy!  HOW DARE SHE!  LOL! No woman is supposed to be with a man and kids!  That makes their heads go wibby wobby. 

107 I think Jan brewer will run, not sarah.

108 i wanna hamburger, no a cheeseburger....

109 I agree with this to an extent but I don't want the MFM dictating who I can vote for.  Maybe I'm being naive.......
Posted by: Captain Hate at August 30, 2010 11:55 AM (EPgc2)

That kind of reflects how I feel about it.  If the MFM gets to dictate who is or is not an acceptable candidate, then the country is so fucked it doesn't matter who runs or who can win.  We might as well give up if that's the case.

110 @106 Nixon also had the quitter label stuck to him. Again, he overcame it doing more or less what Palin is doing.

111 Posted by: naturalfake at August 30, 2010 12:01 PM (+kzvp) You make a pretty good argument, actually. Time will tell. She needs those breakthrough moments, however.

112 Worst of all, Sarah is happy! HOW DARE SHE! LOL! No woman is supposed to be with a man and kids! That makes their heads go wibby wobby. That makes libtards more crazy than anything. She's not a scowling scold but more of a happy warrior.

113 ace, because of Palin we are no longer afraid of the media.  Politicians are learning this as well.

114 one of the "marks" is filling in for linbaugh

115

What is truly amazing are people who see Palin have win after win, but still give her long odds in the next battle, no matter what it is.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 30, 2010 11:31 AM

Palin's Achilles Heel is her "base." So many are fanboyz, adoringly uncritical of her no matter what she says or does. There's more than a whiff of Osama Obama-style adoration there.

Whatever the reasons, she has some truly awful interviews from '08 hanging over her head, just as the resignation from the AK governorship is a negative for many. Explaining those missteps away sounds like the typical excuses put forth for a typical politician.

There is a strong sense for some -- including me -- that Palin is what the Mob boys call a "high-bleacher." She makes select speeches, tweets, posts on Facebook. She appears in front of guaranteed friendly audiences.

A truly qualified candidate, IMO, will have more accomplishment on their resume than a stint as a small-town mayor, a shortened term in a governor's mansion, a failed VP shot and a subsequent career as writer and speech-giver.

Despite the sniping replies it will get me, I still believe she needs to hold some elective office, and complete it with some real accomplishments to her credit. Anyone can be coach a team from the sidelines; if we are to survive as a nation, we need a leader with proven abilities. Someone who can stand on the mound and face the batters.

She has the potential, I believe. She could do the job, and do it well. But I want to see some concrete proof that she will be able to do what she says.

Not demanding this level of competence is what got us the Traitor-in-Chief. Don't want to do that again. We might not survive it a second time.

116

"Ace of Spades"?  How about Ace of Spayed. No one, and I mean no one considered potential candidates is making the case for conservatism as well as Palin.  This women fights.  She does everything you people want a presidential candidate to do. Yet its "she can't win", "she's not speaking to the middle", "She want's money".  Pathetic. 

She has confounded the experts every step of the way, breaking through every barrier presented and has become more popular then ever.  Seriously, the Lib's are now wishing they had an equavilent of Palin!  Why?  Because they know she is very effective in getting her message to resonate with the American People. 

Palin needs to be in the race. Will she? Who knows but it won't because she want's to make more money.  Nobody thinks she'd make more money as former Presidential candidate? Please.

If she should decide to run,  she'll make her case to the middle and it will resonate.  Buck the F&*k up!

117

I am going to take heat for this.

But one of the biggest, if not the biggest, reason i do not want her to be our candidate in 2012 is because the election will then become a referendum on Sarah Palin, not Barack Obama.

We can't beat Obama in 2012 unless this election is wholly about his record.

118
Why don't we ever talk about that other elephant in the room?

We have a relatively young two-term president who is pretty adroit on the campaign trail sitting at home in Crawford, TX twiddling his thumbs.

Shame on the GOP for accepting the vilification of GWB that the Left stuck on him. Get him out there on the campaign trail.

119 I drool at the thought of what a devastating ally Palin could be in the general election.

Imagine her taking shots at Obama while our nominee floats above it all and stays with a winning message of lower taxes, less regulation, and reduced federal spending.

She would deflect at least 50% of the fire directed at our nominee. And every time they try to smear our candidate, she can be right there saying, "There they go again. No plan. No record of accomplishment. They've driven our economy into the ditch and they know it. All they can do is smear the people trying to clean up the mess, just like they smeared me."

Obama is so petulant and unrestrained that he'd end up getting dragged into a pissing match with her while our nominee sails to victory.

120 Regarding risk takers - How you like the pic at the top of Drudge? Can't somebody get him a bike that fits and looks, I don't know, masculine? Can you imagine having to take military orders from that candy-assed goofball? My disdain grows.

121 You know what a shit barometer is, Dems?

Measures the shit pressure in the air. . . . You can feel it!

Listen, hear that?  The sounds of the whispering winds of shit.

You can hear it.  You will my sorry little friends when the old shit barometer rises and you'll feel it too.  Your ears will implode from the shit pressure.

You were warned, but you picked the wrong side.

Beware my friends . . . shit winds are a'coming. . . .

122

Also, Rush points out that the liberals will tell us who they are afraid of. 

They are more afraid of Palin than of anyone else - except maybe Rush himself.

Why should the Right join the left in being afraid of Palin?  Again - who does this benefit? 

123

also i do think palin is running for president.

that is why she is not always endorsing the primary candidate who is more conservative, but also the ones who have a better shot at winning. She is trying to win allies and endorsements for herself in 2011-2012 when the primaries come around.

124 119

I am going to take heat for this.

But one of the biggest, if not the biggest, reason i do not want her to be our candidate in 2012 is because the election will then become a referendum on Sarah Palin, not Barack Obama.

We can't beat Obama in 2012 unless this election is wholly about his record.

I think in two years, people will be so ready for anyone beside Obama, that even Jenna Jameson could run and get elected.

125 MrScribbler, that was some crazed ramblings there.  Kill all those strawmen before they catch fire.

126 Palin will do  to the Bush GOP  what Bush 1 and 2  did to the Reagan GOP. 

127 The other pic at Drudge, the one with the umbrella, it looks like Worf is about to lunge.

128

That kind of reflects how I feel about it.  If the MFM gets to dictate who is or is not an acceptable candidate, then the country is so fucked it doesn't matter who runs or who can win.  We might as well give up if that's the case.

Posted by: ol_dirty_/b/tard at August 30, 2010 12:05 PM (IoUF1)

Yeah I'm sure Warden is stating the facts of the matter (and he agrees the situation is teh suque so I don't have an issue with what he said) but that doesn't mean it doesn't stick in my craw to have the MFM dumbfucks subvert things.  If there's any solace I can take it's in Palin's indefatiguable optimism and ability to pivot in ways that confound the shitheads.  FWIW she seems to be very happy with her lot in life which must really drive the quislings and cocksuckers even crazier.

129
Warden is on to something. The Veep on the ticket can be the bomb-thrower and Palin can be the flame thrower.

Two, two bomb-throwers for the price of one

130

Well, I personally would like to come up with a way to lop off the media's balls and leaven the permanently impotent once and for all.  If not Palin, then whomever else is put out there.

I'm weary of this and sharpening my shears.

131 If I attack Barack Obama, I attack all the over-educated, effete, metrosexual twits out there. When I attack the powers-that-be, that's the elites in Washington- R's and D's. When they attack Sarah Palin, they attack the rest of the country. That's a lot of country to attack. That's like Japan awakening the slumbering bear on Dec 7, 1941.

132 Posted by: MrScribbler at August 30, 2010 12:08 PM (Ulu3i)

see you are describing mittens...

there 's nothing mittens can do or say that would make me cast a vote for him...nothing
.
there are many like me, mittens is yesterday's news, he's had his chance, he's over as is msshame and all the other old white guys who stood in the semicircle at the debates..

I know mittens feels it's "his turn" but the independents out there feel if he is the nominee it's a non choice

133

Sarah Palin is attractive partly because she lives such a dangerous life -- flying solo, taking fire. Female liberals can't ever live dangerous lives like this in their cushy think-tanks and nicely taken care of by the still-mostly-male establishment that will see to it they always have a job, somewhere.

The reason Palin can be dangerous is that she knows she is not outside the views of most Americans like the radicals who push actual leftist policies. Most of the touted liberal politicians are all about spinning their positions, ie, lying, because more Americans agree with Palin than with them (on the issues). Palin and Pelosi know this. Apparently the feminst writers do not.

134 Impeachment needs to be saved for extremely serious situations.

Excuse me as I clean up my monitor, my brain having exploded from wondering what situation could possibly be more serious than the current mass of malfeasance, incompetence, and potential treason.
Posted by: DarkLordOfTheIntarWebs
------------
This is snark, right?  You ARE kidding, right?

You wanna show me where you can impeach someone for incompetence?  That's why we have these things called ELECTIONS.

"Potential treason"?  WTF is that?  You could take any ten decisions by Bush or any other president and label them "potential treason".  Good Lord, Almighty.

135 Any Republican running for the presidency will be trashed and smeared in 2012.  The failings of Romney, Gingrich, Huck, Pawlenty,  A Knight In Shining Armor, etc.  will be put through the DNC-Soros-MSM slime machine with a ferocity equal to anyting Palin has endured for the last two years.

As others have stated, the 2012 election will mainly be a referendum on the Obama Administration.  Voters will be testing his potential opponents for strength of character as well as positions on domestic and foreign policies.  The GOP primaries will be ahhh... spirited.

2012 will be her moment.  Sarah Palin loves primaries.  She thinks they're - beautiful.

136 Look I don't know what she'll do either, exactly, however she is driving the agenda, now if you prevent her from running, that will indicate the Left's strategy will have worked, as they field tested in on W, on Guiliani, even on Romney fifteen years back. And they will fire the same rounds at Daniels, Christie, Brown whoever

137 Impeach Obama?

NO.  NO.  A thousand times NO.

There's a lot wrong with this administration, and I'm sure that somewhere between EPA and DOJ and other operations of the executive branch a Chairman Issa and friends will find plenty of red meat to chow down on.

But don't touch the I-word unless and until there's overwhelming evidence, broad public support, and a substantial probability of conviction in the Senate.

138 Ben, Obama will perform in the 2012 election based on his job approval rating. We will be LUCKY if we have 7.5% unemployment by then. More likely 8.5% or higher, could be above 9%. Goldman Sachs currently has unemployment well above 9% for ALL of 2011 and going above 10% again. If this is the case, people (except the left) will not be thinking "oh Palin is so dumb." Ya know why? Because she wont be the one who has run the country the past few years and caused so many job losses. Unemployment stays high (and it will) then Obama is toast and no personal attack against Sarah will create jobs out of thin air to satisfy the public.

139
Mark my words, by 2012 you'll vote for any (R) on the ticket, and I mean any.

2012 will be nothing like 1996. Things are gonna be bad, and we'll be happy to vote for Bob Dole, even.

140 I know mittens feels it's "his turn" but the independents out there feel if he is the nominee it's a non choice
Posted by: curious
------------
I disagree.  Mitt Romney might well have been the nominee had we been in this economic mess.  And, I believe, he will do much better in 2012 if he decides to run and the economy is still failing.

141 Mrs. Clinton and Ms. Pelosi, are about as eager to mount a Palin-style girl-powered campaign as they are to wear a miniskirt on the House floor
My eyes! MY EYES!!! YOU BITCH!!!

142 nicely taken care of by the still-mostly-male establishment that will see to it they always have a job

I do have a good laugh from time to time at how so many progressive women needed their daddies' and hubbies' and brothers' money, work, and/or name to pave their way.  *cough Nancy Hillary Michelle Sheila Adrianna cough*

143 Posted by: polynikes at August 30, 2010 12:18 PM (m2CN7)
If he's smart he'll do some horse trading and be her VP....
Then you can actually make the job of VP meaningful, she can have him "oversee the economic recovery"
but I still don't think she's running

144 Whatever the reasons, she has some truly awful interviews from '08 hanging over her head, just as the resignation from the AK governorship is a negative for many. Explaining those missteps away sounds like the typical excuses put forth for a typical politician. That is not a strawman observation; those things are real liabilities, no? Consider the point of view of an "independent" (a confused but necessary voter). Not demanding this level of competence is what got us the Traitor-in-Chief. Don't want to do that again. We might not survive it a second time. Barry had one advantage we never will, that his stumblefuck incompetence and lack of experience were dismissed as irrelevant. It's no trick to win a reputation as a brilliant statesman and orator when every MFM outlet repeats the sentiment with assembly-line uniformity, no matter how execrable Barry was. No matter the mountains of evidence in the past about his low-brow, dirty-trick career.

145

Palin's Achilles Heel is her "base." So many are fanboyz, adoringly uncritical of her no matter what she says or does. There's more than a whiff of Osama Obama-style adoration there.

 

Please name for me one politician, particularly at the national level, for whom this is not true. Look at Dodd, Biden, Leahy, Hell, Any Kennedy, Obama. These all have people and media outlets who fawn over these people and actively attack anyone who dares question them. Here in Delaware, any criticsim of Biden is automatically 'Biden-bashing'. Convenient huh? Do you think that the regional outlets covered his many screwups during Alitos' confirmation hearing? The difference between the blogs and some of the national outlets and here was sickening. Kennedy's have been reaping this for decades.

 

Is this a good thing? No. Is it a liability? I don't see how, unless she coasts on that and that alone. It enabled the others to have a career that probably never would have happened but for this element.

146

The single most important detail is to consider is the contrast that would be provided in 2012. Sarah Palin is great. She does not have a long resume of official governance. Considering the challenges that America finds herself facing at the moment the watchword must be competence. Competence to get the economy on track and competence to secure America against foreign threats and a track record to prove it. 

That means having a candidate with some kind of record of achievement. Two years as governor of Alaska and taking on its establishment is nothing to sneer at. It does not rise to the level needed to persuade the populace that you have what it takes to be the CEO of America, particularly after the damage that Palin has taken from the MFM.  Whoever the person is must have a track record that can win over the "independents" that are the key in every presidential election. I predict the base in both parties will be highly motivated. That means winning that freakin squishy middle.

If you bring that qualification to the table and contrast it with the radical incompetence that defines B+rry it won't even be close. And if it isn't close they can't cheat.

147 The left is going batshit crazy right now - racist, etc.

What nobody is talking about is that they will stay this way, or get much worse, after November.  They will demonize the GOP, have marches, protests, burn stuff, riots, etc.

They truly believe we are racists and bigots.

148 Palin has to a be a threat to run, I don't know whether she will or not, but the threat has to be there. I would like to start hearing her as Rush's replacement - reaching out to 25M people at a time.

149 I think (and hope) she runs, and if she runs she wins. I drink no Kool-Aid, been around since Kennedy won in 60. Who has the bigger stones, her or Obambi? I'd give a year of my life, and I don't have that many to give, to see her eviscerate that jug-eared Kenyan in a series of debates. There's not enough pudding in the country. I respect other opinions, but no one on the scene right now fires us up like she does. That may change, but until it does, I'm all in for Sarah.

150

After the stinging rebuke of the Democrats this Fall, people will look back and see who led the charge, not officially but in reality, and it will be Sarah the Kingmaker.

The conservative base wants an "outsider" who is really an outsider, a fresh face not just another old guy.

And I want to see her do a campaign ad that is a riff on Obama's "Watch this drive".  Except she is at the controls of her SuperCub, and says "Watch me nail this three-point landing."

I'll be in my bunk.

151

Remember SPAULDING from Caddyshack?

Of course!

The kid that picked his nose...and ate it!

152 Posted by: curious at August 30, 2010 12:15 PM

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, Mutt Romney is toast. So are Newt and the rest of the Repub "establishment." Fred! is dead, too...but I think he's happy with that.

My "insane ramblings" above merely reflect what most successful Presidents went through before winning the White House. They had executive experience on their resumes, and some actually accomplished good things. Others didn't get that much done but they either tried or were perceived as trying (like Jack Kennedy).

153 LeBron James has patented speaking about oneself in third person. LeBron James will serve a cease and desist letter to Bob Dole for stepping on LeBron James turf. Plus, LeBron James is voting for LeBron James in 2012.

154 Please hear me...If unemployment is still high (and it will be) then any of our GOP hopefuls can and will beat Obama. Therefore, why would be compromise and put a big government squish up as a "safe" pick as our nominee. There is no reason to do that since it will be all about unemployment that Obama has caused. Sarah 2012. Reputable polls currently show Romney and 2 or 3 others doing better against Obama when compared to Palin by only a few points. A FEW POINTS! and that is right now! I promise you the idea that "she can't win" is 100% false.

155 Rush Limbaugh got this right. Who in the Republican party right now packs in crowds like Sarah Palin? No one. He makes the choice pretty clear. Then you start to ask other questions.Who has the biggest appeal to independent conservatives? Sarah Palin. I've been to several tea parties. Trust me, it's Sarah Palin. Who has the most appeal amongst base republicans? Sarah Palin. What other rGOP prospect seems so willing to speak on real conservative ideas on a regular basis? Which of those has the name recognition and charisma to pull of a Prez election. The blue-blood Rockefeller libtard RINOs will hate her. But once she's up in the polls come election time they'll all invite her to their fancy cocktail parties. They always blow with the political wind. In more ways than one. To me her only hindrance is a lack of executive experience. But if she ran today I'd give her my full support. And its the perfect year for her to run. Imagine Obama bringing up her lack of experience in a debate. Against Obama, the ultimate poser, she has the greatest of replies. Obama is the greatest defense of her biggest weakness. And when you take into account that she has survived years of beatings by the psychotic leftist media Sarah Palin is an insanely strong candidate.

156 Someone said that the dems would go nuts....I posted this last night on the ONT....they made fun of me for labeling it off topic...they are a lot of fun that bunch....anyway here's what I posted....
" O/T:  Is this website really the dems?
link
"Such incitement of hatred and violence is utterly intolerable in a democracy. To protest, we are boycotting these Fox news sponsors. We join with Stop Beck, Fox News Boycott, Color of Change and other groups in this boycott."

157 I'd give a year of my life, and I don't have that many to give, to see her eviscerate that jug-eared Kenyan in a series of debates.

I'm pretty sure if they were the nominees, the only media willing to host/air those debates would be Fox News, and Kelsey Grammer's new network project...and Barry would cancel at the last minute.

158 Posted by: polynikes at August 30, 2010 12:25 PM (m2CN7)

I think him getting the "scott brown pick up truck" was just too over the top for me.....too pre planned, too manipulative for my taste.

159

I like how people on this thread are deciding what Palin's role should be, even though the thrust (see what I did there?) of the post is that she's an independent, go-getting, get-things-done, get-out-of-her-way-type woman...

Um, yeah, I do enjoy Opposite Day.

160 "To me her only hindrance is a lack of executive experience."

You don't need much of this if you are going to cut up the Federal government like a turkey on Thanksgiving.

161 I so want to watch Sarah destroy the donkeys with one hand, and bitch-slap the MSM with the other!

162 Hell, I don't know what Palin's future can be. This much we ought to roundly acknowledge: She has mastered living rent-free in every libtard's head. That is quite an accomplishment. Even Reagan didn't do that. The closest thing in recent memory was the way libtards used to spit out Newt Gingrich's name when he was Speaker.

163 I would like to start hearing her as Rush's replacement - reaching out to 25M people at a time.

Three hours of crazed, violent moonbats...he'd have to give his call screeners a raise.

164 And I promise you the idea that "she can't win" is 100% true.  So, now we're even?

I love her.. I really do.  But, not as President.  Go back and watch her performance in the debate against Biden.  Against Biden, for cripes sakes!  She's fiery and spunky.. all of those things.. But she cannot walk and chew gum at the same time, and for once I would like some Republican to run for president who can think on his/her feet and talk with knowledge about any subject a president should have a grasp of.

165 BTW, ace when I think about women being afraid to take chances...well you know who comes to mind right away?  Why St. Joan of Arc of course, the first feminist.

166 for once I would like some Republican to run for president who can think on his/her feet and talk with knowledge about any subject a president should have a grasp of.

Paul Ryan, but he's not interested in 2012.

167

From the NYT article:

"Ms. Palin, in turn, has been making a greedy grab at claiming feminism as her own."

You're so greedy!  It's ours!  Ours!

168 You don't need much of this if you are going to cut up the Federal government like a turkey on Thanksgiving.
Posted by: ingenus at August 30, 2010 12:30 PM

You have to know what to cut, and an executive-type (I'm talking about a good one, not the usual run of incompetents promoted far above their abilities) at least has some experience to guide their choices.

Otherwise, you wind up with a Ron Paul, slicing away both meat and fat.

169 Paul Ryan, but he's not interested in 2012.
Posted by: HeatherRadish
-----------
Agreed!  Wholeheartedly!

170

In a conversation with a high school friend the other day, she said , "You aren't one of those Tea Party people are you?"  and:  "I loathe Sarah Palin."

Lets take a look at this lady:

Her parents built a successful business.  Both were the children of immigrants.

Though educated at one of the elite Seven Sisters colleges, she has never lived outside her smallish hometown, pursued a career, or held a responsible job.

 She's always had a man around to help her lead a comfy life.  Her current husband is a mid-level state official.

Now I ask you: why the EFF does  she think she's superior to Sarah Palin??  After all, she embraced the passive "cookie-baking wifey" model that feminism itself detests, and Palin fled from years ago..

I detect self-loathing.

I suspect a lot of Palin-hating women  have led the same kind of pre-feminist life, basking in the reflected glory of their husbands and living off their money, and now---seeing a supremely confident Palin on the world stage--- realize that they've blown it.

BIG TIME.

 

171 You don't need much of this if you are going to cut up the Federal government like a turkey on Thanksgiving. Posted by: ingenus at August 30, 2010 12:30 PM (+sBB4),/i> Agreed, but unlike the left we should hold our candidates to higher standards. But she does have executive leadership as Governor of a state. Obama did not. And most voters think he still doesn't have any capacity to lead. Like I said Obama being so inexperience makes 2012 the perfect election for her. Her short time as governor will not be a weakness in 2012.

172 Well Jerry, there is only so much you can react to complete delusion, 'the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon" that diner that had been demolished twenty years, plus she had to fight the moderator, who had a personal interest in Obama's election

173 Jan brewer?

174

but how can one actually be ballsy in protective womb of establishment support?

Hee hee.  I see what you did there.

175 Paul Ryan? You mean the guy who voted for the GM BAILOUT so the UAW can keep buying Viagra through their health plan!? I will forgive TARP as their was panic, but the GM bailout? HELL NO. Sarah's performance in the Biden debate was more than fine. A CRITICAL POINT THAT IS ALWAYS LOST IS THIS....Sarah was not defending her own positions in most cases. She had to learn all of John McCains insane positions and then defend them in a few weeks time. That is impossible for anyone. In 2012, she will be running on ALL of her OWN ideas. What is easier to articulate, your own ideas or someone elses?

176 Well Jerry, there is only so much you can react to complete delusion, 'the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon" that diner that had been demolished twenty years, plus she had to fight the moderator, who had a personal interest in Obama's election
Posted by: dr. lizardo
---------------
never mind.. just, never mind..

177 So, that looks like it is going to leave you a field of Newt (ugg, no, please), John Thune, Haley Barbor, Mitch Daniels and did I miss someone.

Yeah, you left out two 2008 losers - Huck and Romney v5.3  Two primary candidates so lousy, they lost to John McCain.

178

I promise you the idea that "she can't win" is 100% false.

That myth was created and is fed and maintained MORE by conservatives than libs.   It this bizarre game of "I want Death by Chocolate!' and the waiter brings sugarfree instant vanilla pudding.

Such is the oomp, the star power, the 'something' that all those other fellas lack.  The reality is, they're vapid, unpassionate, bland, tooooo careful and TOO damn ensconced in the RNC Party of Political Incest to be more than 2012's "My turn! The RNC said I could have a turn."  playground mentality.

179 Who knows what Sarah will pull off in the next 2 years.

  I think maobama has done enough damage so far in 2 years that if I was running the RNC  I would make sure one of the main themes for this upcoming election would be a veto proof majority to make sure the ONLY thing this fucking communist can do for the next 2 years is play golf . Maobama has proven himself to be on the wrong side of the majority of Americans on every issue. Palin has been with the majority. She seems to be a pretty damn good king maker, and if her "kings" do their job and really get America back on track, AND she takes some time to learn arena combat over the next 2 years so she can slay douche nozzles like the MFM hacks, then she could be teflon.

There is a lot of  "if" in there, but like others have said, obama could have us where the Americans would vote for big bird just to see that fuck tossed out on his 3rd world ass.

180 "Romney v5.3"

hehe

181 I said it before and I'll say it again: If Sarah Palin were a Democrat with the EXACT SAME policy positions, they would embrace her and call her a working-class hero.

182 I always answer the Palin bashers with this:  "yeah she is so stupid, so stupid but smart as a fox, she managed to have a hottie hubby, 5 kids (normal kids who do normal stupid things) (they then point out that she had the audacity to have a less than perfect child and I usually answer that with "wasn't the women's movement about the right to choose, not about choosing for you? and that usually shuts them up on that one)  I then point out that she rose in politics to the level of governor.  (first they hit me with "but it's not really a state, it's alaska," at which point I tell them to look up seward's folly and find out why the man was brilliant and to find out what an interesting and complex state alaska really is) They then get fire in their eyes and say "but she's a quitter" and I then painstakingly show them why it made fiscal and political sense for her to resign.  they usually don't like it, but by the end of our "Little talk" they can understand it, if not emotionally on an economic and political level.

have had many of these "little talks" with many hard core powerful liberal women.  In the end I say to them "do you want feminism to be pushed further back than it already has, then go ahead, vote for another man, vote for someone who thinks a war is the ultimate way to fix an economy (r or d)
it usually shuts them up but I know I got them thinking...

183 Please name for me one politician, particularly at the national level, for whom this is not true. Look at Dodd, Biden, Leahy, Hell, Any Kennedy, Obama.

Posted by: Blue Hen at August 30, 2010 12:20 PM (R2fpr)

I'm glad you brought that up!

Join my fan club this month, and in addition to The Joernal, you'll get last year's annual retroactive, "2009: A Big Fuckin' Deal" and your "I'm With Ya, Joe!" dunce cap.

We're also working on a bobblehead, once we can mock up the hairplugs.

184 Posted by: Mallamutt at August 30, 2010 12:39 PM (OWjjx)

I think she and palin are friends....

185 @183 - this was exactly my point during the election.

Palin was strongest - almost untouchable - when she was working her own material.

It was when she had the USB dongle full of McCain talking points stuck up her butt by Steve Schmidt and the campaign drones that she couldn't make the sale. 

You could see during some of the interviews, in particular, that there was that extra half-second of having to index to what the campaign expected her to say at that point.

She didn't have the benefit of a couple decades in acting like Reagan did.

186 > Still, I'll keep an eye out for the MSM declaring some female forty-something Lib drone as the big new thing for the Dems. Bet they can't find a hot one. Reporting for duty!

187 Romney was attacked by the Republican establishment (particularly the NRC and McCain) in 2008, and now he's part of it? I know some Repubs feel about Romney the way I feel about Huckabee (just can't vote for the guy), but I've watched him build corporations, save/manage the Olympics, fight off MA moonbats, (he served as my Governor for 4 years) without ever doubting his ability. His philosophy and mine might not mesh 100%, but that's the way of politics. If he makes it to the general, I bet that for every RINO-hunter he drives away, he'll pull at least one Indy/Dem who is primarily concerned about the economy.

188

Most indies are go with the flow, finger in the wind types.  Obama was the flow in 08, they followed (and no they don't regret it; they barely think about politics), even though he was way more liberal than they are.  If Palin is the flow in'12, they'll follow her, even if she is more conservative than they are.

In this regard, Palin has something no other GOP candidate has had in 20 years or so--she draws attention wherever she goes and whatever she does.   It also helps immensely, as pop stated above, that she has been prominent in all of the big battles v Obamunism, and that she has no qualms about knocking of Establishment GOP pols, whom no one really like much anyway. She can create her own momentum, if she wants the job.

189

Sarah's performance in the Biden debate was more than fine

 

When one considers that she had a better grasp of the constitution and the role of the VP position, I'd agree. As for Biden, see my comments above. Even when he is caught out, the MFM subverts the gaffes into some bizarre idiosynchrocy.

190 If she runs in the primary, I won't vote for her, simply because I do not believe she has a shot at winning.

If Mr. Flippity-Flop (Romney) runs I won't vote for him because he doesn't have a shot at winning. If Mr. Release-Dangerous-Felons-Who-Kill-Cops (Huckabee) runs, I won't for for him because he doesn't have a shot at winning. If Mr. Hey, Hey, Hey-I-Need-Barges-Over-Here (Jindal) runs, I won't vote for him because he doesn't have a shot at winning. I can go on, but I think you get what I mean....

Palin HAS a shot at winning, if you naysayers would just grow some backbone and learn HOW to support her. But it's much easier to sit back and whine while she does the dirty work for your party. I mean "the Media's going to take her apart anyway" right?? You get what you work for. True in life, true in politics. What a bunch of crybabies here.

191 I think some of you are a little too emotionally invested in Palin.

You keep insisting, contrary to what polling suggests, that she's our best option in 2012. Or if not our best, not a high risk.

But it's not true.

Among five top contenders for the White House in 2012, only former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is viewed as more extreme than the president. Just 38% say PalinÂ’s views are mainstream, while 55% regard them as extreme.

When was that poll released? August 23, 2010 by Rasmussen.

Obumbles is only seen as extreme by 48% of those who were polled.

That, ladies and gentleman is what we call a problem.

I know you don't like that Palin was unfairly trashed by the media. But fuck fair. When is life fair? The fact is, they pulled it off. Let's fight the next battle.

You all are missing a golden opportunity here--Palin can defeat Obama without even running. She just needs to stay out of the race, but be a high profile attack dog, needling and insulting Obama until he melts down.

She takes the arrows while the GOP nominee takes the presidency. Then she gets a cabinet position

Win/win.

192 """Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret: It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.'
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

This will govern the next election.  Look at how BO won, hope and change and being your BF on facebook.  Having the minions send you emails, making you feel like you matter like you are a significant part of "the group".

The republican who runs will need to engender the same feelings in the same way.  Don't think anyone is capable of this but Sarah.

193

I detect self-loathing.

I suspect a lot of Palin-hating women  have led the same kind of pre-feminist life, basking in the reflected glory of their husbands and living off their money, and now---seeing a supremely confident Palin on the world stage--- realize that they've blown it.

BIG TIME.

I see it in my uber-liberal friends.  ALL have came from upper middle class, have college degrees, all have light fluff jobs or are SAHM (which is a good thing and I applaud that!)  But their interaction with the real world is limited.  To them, being liberal is like part of being a 'nice' person.  They're all in to being nice and oh!  They have college degrees too (though one is in English lit, another is in Fashion) So people who've been to college are liberal!  Right?? 

It's like arguing with Collegiate Barbie sometimes.  They know just a few talking points and that is all.  Rather argue with Malibu Barbie....at least she's at the beach.

194 JEM, Jerry...I agree, the evidence isn't likely to be solid enough.  Too many will take the fall, too many things will never come to light...so it's not likely to ever come through.

But when a man supports voter intimidation, takes deliberate action to hobble our economy in contrary to advice given by his own consultants, willfully diminishes our defensive capabilities, works to give federal funds to organizations known to support terrorism, illegally propagandizes the American people using the resources of the Federal Government...well, I'm sorry, but if the evidence could be secured, I'm hard pressed to identify circumstances more compelling that don't involve foreign troops on US soil and/or cities turning into radioactive craters.

Bottom line, we must investigate, and if we find, we must act.  And if we don't have enough to act, at least we can set the record straight, one way or the other.  But this business of holding off for political reasons--against an opponent who most assuredly would not--has to stop, if only to establish that there are limits to what can be sheltered as 'politics', and as such, responsibility for which evaded.

195 Posted by: Warden at August 30, 2010 01:00 PM (fE6tn)

"I think some of you most of the dems are a little too emotionally invested in Palin. Obama.  (and now they are starting to realize that he might be "stepping out" on them and they are becoming depressed)

So we need a Palin, in whatever capacity, to pick up the slack but make sure the voters know that she won't "step out on them".

196 President Biden sounds like a great opponent for SaraCuda.

And seriously, Biden would be a better president than Barky or the Pantsuit, so it's a win-win to me.

Posted by: Mephitis at August 30, 2010 11:23 AM (ehXLT)

Oh, yah- that suits me just fine. Governor President le Petomaine.

197

Interesting comments.  Several above "hope she doesn't run?"  what on earth for?  If she is as unelectable as you think, she will be crushed in the primary by anyone..romneycare, huck, Boehner, whoever.  And then you can rest easy at night.

As I read them, these "hope she doesn't run" comments all translate to "afraid she will win if she runs."  For those folks, your guy is Mitt Romneycare, and he could really use your support.

198 As of right now, Sarah would do better than all of the candidates preferred by the  Concerned Eeyores.   As someone pointed out above, Romney and Huck lost to McCain, himself not exactly the greatest candidate.  Sarah does quite well in polls -- as well or better than Pawlenty, Romney, Thune (Thune? Whatever)  Gingrich, etc.  That said, we won't be able to tell for sure who has a chance until Iowa and New Hampshire, nearly two years off.  As for Chris Christie, he seems to be a great "take charge" fiscal conservative, but he may be in other respects a standard-issue Northeastern liberal Republican, if his comments on the Flaming Victory Mosque fracas are indicative.

I,  for one,  do NOT want Sarah relegated to the sidelines as "a cheerleader for conservative causes" , while the boys get a pass to go out and play the game, or whatever it is the anti-Sarah faction has in mind.

199 Warden, I refer you to my post well above in the comments regarding a campaign with ads and debates. She will stand on stage and say OK, "The president says I am extreme. Well I support Arizona stopping illegal immigration while the president refuses to secure the border and sues them. Ask yourselves America, do you want the border secure? If you do, then I guess he is saying you are as extreme as he says I am. But maybe there is another option. The fact is, you and I are not the extreme ones. He is." We can do this on several other issues as well where HER POSITION is in line with the majority of america. People only think she is extreme because the media lies about it everyday. When she says what I just said in a debate where 70 million people watch. The jig is up for the people peddling the extremist BS.

200

The republican who runs will need to engender the same feelings in the same way.  Don't think anyone is capable of this but Sarah.

I've noted that when Sarah posts on FB she can have likes in the 5 digits and comments in the thousands.   Yeah, yeah, I know.... it's Facebook, BUT  I also get emails from Barak Obama also (how he got my email I'll never know)  Yes, I know it's not him but I can imagine for every 20 who know it's not him, there are is at least 2 or 3 swooning about the President talking to them.

SQUEE!  Giggle!  (Sorry, Barbie moment).

That is just one facet of the politics these days.  Now, if the old dogs can learn to hunt like the young dogs, then OK, they MIGHT have a chance.  However, Sarah's been doing already for a VERY long time.

201 So the follow up question is what positions of hers do you think are extreme, the opposition to Obama care, support for domestic oil drilling, for military operations
abroad, against the NYC mosque, you see how this works, otherwise the poll is
rather meaningless

202 Ha. If you call MA health care reform "Romneycare" you don't know what you're talking about. I watched him veto bunches of the Legislatures attempts to socialize health care, and I watched all of those vetoes get overridden. Since Romney was out of Constitutional options at that point, what do you think he should've done? Secede from the Union and start his own country or just have the Legislature executed?

203 211, Romney is on Video saying "I do not want to go back to Reagan..." He is also on video saying "I like mandates" when referring to his individual healthcare mandate in romneycare. Sounds like Obama doesnt it?

204 Right now, since they are both working together a lot how about a DeMint/Palin ticket or a Palin/DeMint ticket?

Oh I know why not, they can never win the Blue States, Only Romney can beat Obama, they are too right wing, and all the other excuses why we want a RINO and not a conservative to run.

In that case why don't we run McCain again? The media still likes him.

205 Warden - Among five top contenders for the White House in 2012, only former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is viewed as more extreme than the president. Just 38% say PalinÂ’s views are mainstream, while 55% regard them as extreme.

I went back and read that Rasmussen poll announcement.   Rasmussen explicitly stated that the word "mainstream" was NOT defined during the poll's interviews.  The results are meaningless in the context of the  2012 GOP primary season's dynamics.

206

"Ms. Palin, in turn, has been making a greedy grab at claiming feminism as her own."

I thought femnism belonged to all women.  I don't know what's more irritating; stupidity or hypocrisy.

207 Palin living a dangerous life?  Giggle!

Flying while wearing a pregnant suit, is not dangerous at all.

208

I thought femnism belonged to all women.  I don't know what's more irritating; stupidity or hypocrisy.

Posted by: katya, the designated driver at August 30, 2010 01:33 PM (WF5bO)

Stupid hypocrisy?

209 The Rasmussen "Extreme" poll page: LINK

Excerpt:

It’s important to note that the questions did not define “mainstream” or “extreme.”

210 Has DeMint expressed interest? Does he have a national campaign apparatus? Does he have a fundraising base? Does he have the name recognition? Nobody (here) is opposed to a highly conservative candidate, but just picking by "most conservative" leaves a lot of holes to fill? Fire in the belly and all that. If I could choose a President from the current contenders I'd pick Romney in a heartbeat.

211 You know "Modern Family" which btw is a fabulous program won last night at the emmy's.  It beat glee which saddened me but really glee had no business being in the comedy category.  The show hits it, hits America.  The writers get it and the head writer thanked his kids.  Most of us have been fortunate enough to be in a regular old fashioned garden variety nuclear family but many have not and the show speaks to the many who have not.  It is a funny way to say "hey, we are Americans, we work with what we have, it may not be perfect damn it, but bottom line, we love each other"

212 Posted by: polynikes at August 30, 2010 01:58 PM (m2CN7)

unfortunately I think you are right.  Her supporters won't take a primary loss gracefully.  a win by palin would depend on young people who opted to register republican and there aren't too many of those.  A lot of people say "I'm an independent, I know I have no say in any primary but I don't care" so if it is the same old republican party, with the same old white male ethic then she will lose which is why I think she won't even bother to run.

213 Ace et al.,  Tunku is on the John Batchelor show all the time.  tunku and batchelor are very good friends.  tunku is always entertaining and he always makes you think, I love it when he is on the program.  You can listen to some of his appearances here

214 I don't give a damn which conservative gets the nod, but if we get yet another RINO squish I am permanently abandoning the RINOparty and contacting the libertarians. I figure it will be easier to change them than the RINOpulican Party.

215 Or maybe I can put it the way Miller did in that interview, I like the Republican Platform, too bad the leadership doesn't.

216 Demint would endorse Romney? My god, I thought Demint was for less intrusive government, IE against government mandates on the individual to buy healthcare?

217

Curious I still listen to Batchelor but he has strangely moved into squish territory - he has John Avlon a lot now, too.  Batchelor is also scared of the Tea Parties and Palin and the like. 

 

218 "225 Or maybe I can put it the way Miller did in that interview, I like the Republican Platform, too bad the leadership doesn't.

Posted by: Vic at August 30, 2010 02:36 PM (/jbAw)"

the repulbicans missed the wave last election, they are so self absorbed they didn't notice that the American people were changing.   But also, they felt that it really wasn't their turn, it was the dems turn and so they didn't fight too hard against the dem , only amongst themselves like a bunch of 7th grade girls.  By the time they had finished ripping one another apart, the American people didn't want any of them and when mcshame endorsed BO, it was over.  See, the dems "got it", they saw America changing, they saw America sink of politics as usual and they capitalized on that.  Now, have they kept their promises, no, BO looks more and more like GWB every day and this is eating away at the minions who donated in "small donations" and fought vociferously for hope and change a downsizing of government and no lobbyists in the white house.   As it sinks in, they realize that this isn't what is happening.  Don't be surprised for BO to come out and say "I had no idea it would be this difficult to buck the entrenched masses in DC but stick with me another term and we will buck them, you'll see, I promise.  Since a second term is always "promise them anything to get elected" he'll win another term unless the republicans offer a better, legitimate, alternative.  oh wait, maybe i should say "unless the republicans truly want to offer a better alternative because up until now they do look the same to me.  The same as the dems and no matter how many times people say they aren't, I can't see it, and I'm not alone, more and more people every day agree with me....that's not good for the republicans, not good at all.

219 President Biden sounds like a great opponent for SaraCuda.

That's exactly what I've been thinking! 2012....  shit, most of the dhimmicrats would vote for the Flying Spaghetti Monster just to be ironic.

220 American people were changing

If recent polls haven't taught you anything, it's that the American people are the same as they've always been, but maybe getting a little soft. A sleeping giant has been awoken, though.

221 awakened.

222 Um.  Can I take back that vote on Obamacare? 

223 Sarah Palin below the radar:

NY Sun:   Sarah Palin Celebrates Shabbat And Offers Echoes of Esther

LINK

And riddle me this:  Which Republican won the 2008 NH GOP primary?  And will his continued popularity in New Hampshire be a factor in 2012?

224
It’s important to note that the questions did not define “mainstream” or “extreme.”

Posted by: mrp at August 30, 2010 01:41 PM (HjPtV)

 

Do you think most people polled define "extreme" as a good thing?

I don't.

225 No matter you can take your football.  We'll just get another.

Yeah, they can see how long they remain as a viable Party with nothing but NE liberal squishes running who will not even win their own blue States. Good strategy that.

226 Warden:
>>I know they'll smear whoever we run, but I don't want someone who's already been successfully trashed. And she has. It sucks, but it's true.<<

I think this is the first time I've ever disagreed with Warden.  Sadly, I must, because if we get to the Ohio election again and all I've got to choose from is Tweedle-Paw and Tweedle-Rom, I'm sitting my fat ass at home and cleaning my guns, waiting for the zombies to show up.  What the hell is the point of having alternative media if you just use it to pimp the same dead horse?  I am far less concerned that Palin might legitimately run and lose than I am that I am disenfranchised by my own party through their stupid inability to radically reform the primary system and the cowardice of my fellow cauci in dealing with a simple media hazing problem. 

227

Tunku Varadarajan: Release the Palin

I was just thinking that looks an awful lot like "Release the Pain."

228 Why should Palin, who brings in money, audiences, and commands air time nearly on the level accorded to a sitting President, step aside for somebody else? Where are the other guys whose names get thrown around? Romney? Daniels? Pawlenty? Barbour? Where the hell are they? Fuck it. If Palin runs, and I'm pretty sure she's going to, and shows well during the primaries then I'm voting for her. She's shown she's able to get into the mix of issues and sometimes drives the conversation. The other guys have been too chicken shit to say anything. I'm not going to vote for a coward. If Palin wins the nomination and it's an Obama vs. Palin, are y'all really going to vote for Obama? Yeah. So the primaries are going to be where the real battle is at. Push for whomever you want. Go all out for your boy. It's just I'm pretty confident my girl is going to dust the current crop of chicken shit boys.

229 This idiot's description of Palin reads more like a disgruntled girl who can't get a date to the prom than any real rational and political analysis.

230 I need an iPhone 4 Converter software to convert DivX videos to iphone format. Come to AVI to iPhone 4 Converter, MPEG to iPhone 4, MKV to iPhone 4, iPhone 4 Converter for Mac Guide on how to copy dvd to ipad.have a try it.

231 Posted by: TexMex at August 30, 2010 05:50 PM (XpUf+)

Fuck yeah, TexMex. I'm with you. Who the fuck else is out there promoting the "conservative cause"?  Let Palin can endorse losers like Saxby Chambliss and fundraise for the shit-for-brains RNC and do all the work that some douche feels is unimportant to this illustrious cause until he gets up off his fat, plastic ass and delivers on election night like some right wing Great Pumpkin. Who the fuck is this person? I'm always astounded when I hear suggestions. At least Mark Sanford and Charlie Crist are ruled out now.

232 It appears the fact Discount Gucci Bags that lunchbox has transformed the conventional handbag in particular quarters. What is it concerning the Cheap Gucci Bags lunchbox that those people individuals appear to adore so much?