1 "I've been pretty pessimistic about the ability of the military to transform Afghanistan to any great degree but I would never bet against the United States Marine Corps."

Ann Coulter's plan, while I disagree about its emphasis on Christianity, had a certain practicality.

2 "As always, the Marines have a plan and are willing to experiment with new tactics such as female teams to interact with local women, operating their own police training academy and most interestingly reaching out to local mullahs."

By the way, and on a more serious note, my heart feels for the plight of women brutalized and repressed in Afghanistan (and anywhere).

Bless the courage of these Marines, men and indeed women.

3 Frankly, I trust the Marines' judgment on this issue much more than the Army's.

4 How much you wanna bet CINC Toonces encourages McChrystal to pull the plug on Helmand?

5 annihilation, pure and simple. and by rogue marines to boot. thank you, washington post and tom hanks!

6 Too bad it is all a waste. We know Obama will cut and run before the end of the year.

7 By the way, and on a more serious note, my heart feels for the plight of women brutalized and repressed in Afghanistan (and anywhere).

Posted by: Christoph at March 14, 2010 02:57 PM (0fq7b)

First thing that popped into my mind were the Palestinian women having babies for Jihad who are so very proud of their kid who just blew himself up in an Israeli restaurant.

8 Wingnut genocidists!

9 MATT DAMON!

10 The "city" of Now Zad had a population of 10,000. The person who wrote this article apparently does not know the difference between a district and a province. And sometimes refers to Nawzad as a town and sometimes as a city. Before the ISAF moved into Nawzad it had a population of 10000 then after 3 years of fighting it became a ghost town. Now they say people are moving back. After training the Afghan National Army for 8 years they still cannot lead in retaking a small town. Given a choice between being policed by the Taliban and the corrupt and immoral Afghan police, it seems most Afghans prefer the Taliban

11 Good for the Marines. The title shows how truly ignorant the Post staff is. I'm sure they did not mean to insult the Marines they were writing about, but they are clueless. 'Rogue' would be setting up your own opium ring, not taking action instead of waiting for dipstick from NATO to takes his thumb out of his ass.

12 "First thing that popped into my mind were the Palestinian women having babies for Jihad who are so very proud of their kid who just blew himself up in an Israeli restaurant."

I've known Palestinian women and they're not all proud of that.

However.

American women whose sons and daughters were slave owners were proud of their children (and they were probably slave owners themselves).

Nazi (and, yes, in this case there is a mild similarity although I wouldn't say equivalence) women whose sons were SS were proud of them.

And racist Canadian parents who hated natives (I'm part native), or Chinese, or what have you were often proud of their racist children.

Etc., etc., etc., etc. forever and ever.

The world has a lot of sick ideas in it and some sick women too, infected by their cultures.

But that's the point. Cultures change.

Just like American is now a bastion for racial tolerance and opportunity, and German is by and large very anti-Nazi, so can other cultures change.

Even Islam (or at least the worst elements therein).

This idea that it's undefeatable is just nuts.

13 The WaPo can blow me.  That is all.

14 "The WaPo can blow me."

Well, half their report-babes and secretary-babes can blow me too, but I fail to see the relevance.

j/k

I do.

15 My LRRP Team was extracted during TET and sent into HUE 'Nam and we were under the control of the Marine Commander, and I saw immediately that we were on the same side, no difference in Special Op's in the Army or Marines, so let's put that to bed now, one cause, one unit to kill as many of those motherfuckers as possible, odumbass has no clue what my statement means!!!

16 Police Academy? Finally, something Joe Biden's qualified to do.

Oh. You don't mean the movie.

Never mind.

17 Semper Fi Marines, tell Obama and NATO to fuck themselves.

18 I agree most riki-tik.

19 This idea that it's undefeatable is just nuts.

Posted by: Christoph at March 14, 2010 03:14 PM (0fq7b)

Well it has been going strong for 1,400 years, which is a thousand years longer than than America was even an idea. They rarely give back anything they take unless it is by force. They don't seem to have a reverse gear. I think we need to respect that sort of track record.

It has been defeated. We call that the Crusades and the Spanish Reconquest. These things are of course Double-plus Ungood today.

The culture change that seems to be taking place is Muslim advances in Europe and Africa, while we are holding the line in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Hamas was elected because Fatah wasn't radical enough and the Palestinians have water, schools, electricity, etc. I don't think modern conveniences are gonna do the trick.

20 Our mission statement over there should be send us your poor children and women and we will guard them, send us your combatants and we will kill them all!!!

21 There is fear in the hearts of every Grunt when confronted with combat no matter the service designation, but when that fear is released and the fog of war settles WE are the ones leaning on our rucksacks and taking a smoke and water from our canteens, waiting for the engineers w/dozers to bury the dead assholes we piled up!!!

22 "Well it has been going strong for 1,400 years, which is a thousand years longer than than America was even an idea. They rarely give back anything they take unless it is by force. They don't seem to have a reverse gear. I think we need to respect that sort of track record."

Oh, I respect it. I just think modern rational forces, with whatever allies we can gather; Hindu, Christian, and otherwise; need to (eventually) defeat it.

Religion is dangerous and yet part of the human condition. It seems to be coded in a majority of our species' members' genomes. It's probably ineradicable as Christopher Hitchens says. However that doesn't mean it can't transmute into less malign forms. Radical Islam is especially malign.

You're right that Islam is particularly well constructed. It doesn't have a reverse gear as you put it, and their sense of self-entitlement is massive.

However, they waste a lot of energy repressing various parts of their own society and that weakness can be exploited against it if determined will is brought to bear.

Further, it is objectively untrue, as are all religions. That lack of truth is a weakness and the knife should be pressed home.

The fact their founder is a pedophile mass-murderer is a point worth repeating as well.

23

The Marines have the best PR corps in the history of warfare.

24 Nicholson notes that Helmand's governor supported the operation, as did many local tribal leaders. Hundreds of residents have returned in recent weeks, and at least 65 shops have reopened, according to Marine officers stationed in Now Zad.

That right there's the money shot.  Get the tribal leaders -- many of whom had traditionally been chosen popularly by their tribes -- behind you, and you're good to go. 

You'd think multiculturalists would understand this very basic level crap.  Seems the Marines actually understand how Afghan cultures actually function, imagine that.

25

Further, it is objectively untrue, as are all religions. That lack of truth is a weakness and the knife should be pressed home.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

26 Semper Fi, brothers.  Adapt, Improvise and Overcome... but don't forget locate, close with, and destroy the enemy!!

27 The Marines are right on here.

28  Never under-estimate a United States Marine.

29 The American Soldier is truly a fright winger and the progs are pussies!!!

30

>> They question whether a large operation that began last month to flush the Taliban out of Marja, a poor farming community in central Helmand, is the best use of Marine resources.

 

Oh really?

You know what the best use of Marine resources is?

Finding the enemy, and killing his sorry ass.

That they are able to multitask and perform coordinated counter-insurgency operations with the locals is just a testament to their abilities.

31

If I were a cynic, I'd say the Marines are enjoying some success in Helmand doing it their way and that's pissing off the Army brass.    I have no doubt they would rather see them fail the Army way.  God damn officers.

Oh, and here goes the msm with the 'rogue military' meme.  Expect a purge of politically unreliable officers from all branches.

32 30,

You can eat bbq at my casa anytime!

33
Finding the enemy, and killing his sorry ass.

I swear to God, the damn Army forgets this before, during, and AFTER every war.  CRS - can't remember shit.

34 31,

That's not true Dang the fusion is strong among all branches of service, that's what I screamed about in 'Nam and it fell on deaf ears.

35 But I was just a lowly NCO!

36 Religion is dangerous and yet part of the human condition. Posted by: Christoph, whenever he gets half a chance It's Sunday. Give it a rest, if you can.

37 A couple more thoughts.

Obviously religion plays a part in this.

I have my views on the subject and others share them, including some here, and some within Islamic nations actually.

Many others are members of various religions including Hinduism and Christianity which I mentioned.

We can all agree that Islam is objectively untrue, and founding a religion on the teachings of a mad, murderous, pedophile is disgraceful... and almost certainly not from God.

Whether one believes in another God, or no God, I can't believe any intelligent "free-thinking" (not in the atheistic use of the term) would think Mohammed's personal behaviour represented good.

It didn't. It was awful.

As a result of his horrible example, and certain practices within ancient Arab culture which was widespread and practiced by others including the Jews, but has largely been set aside, women are oppressed, children are brainwashed, men are terrorized and made to tow the religions line, and violence and ignorance are perpetuated.

Well, Islam isn't the only culture/religion where this has been true.

Over time, others have changed. I just think the idea we can't win is false.

It's like Reagan and the evil empire.

Sure, the Soviet Union was on a paper more powerful, but we all know it was much more fragile than a religions faith.

Yet the principle holds. By calling it what it is; opposing it militarily, economically, and otherwise; and by supporting the good, freedom-loving people within it, it was defeated.

I wouldn't even say that battle is completely over. However, Reagan made one hell of a start.

Churchill defined the Nazis for what they were.

Etc.

We need leadership and courage amongst the people. Not defeatism.

Further, if you look at the first 2 of my examples for other twisted societies that were transformed, they changed partly as a result of moral pressure, but also with the catalysis of a lengthy bloodbath.

The third example, which was less intractable, changed without war. There's hope and there's use for both strategies.

Go Marines.

38
That's not true Dang the fusion is strong among all branches of service

I know that, coordination has never been better between the branches.  But I guarantee that 4 star McChrystal doesn't like being 'ignored' by that brigadier.  I bet the jarheads got along great with McKiernan.   And SOMEBODY went running to the WaPo with this 'story' about rogue marines.

39 There is only ONE God and it's not a commitee in Heaven.

40
and it's not a commitee

Nope.   The committees and meetings are all in Hell.

41 "There is only ONE God and it's not a commitee in Heaven."

I worship dark roast coffee, personally.

Yumm.

42 Further, it is objectively untrue, as are all religions. That lack of truth is a weakness and the knife should be pressed home.

People cannot be reasoned out of a position they were never reasoned into. Throw in the collapse of secular society in vitality, demographics, and faith in itself and they could reasonably respond that, why should they believe in the future you talk about when in point of fact you don't have a future. A society that requires the excess population of those who reject its tenets is a parasitic one by definition. Absent those other societies, secular society is headed for extinction.

However, they waste a lot of energy repressing various parts of their own society and that weakness can be exploited against it if determined will is brought to bear.

That actually is one of their great strengths. We cannot target their internal society unless we rule them, or they get a lot more tolerant than seems likely. That internal control prevents them from being undermined the way our society was undermined by socialism, and is now being undermined by Islam.

Oh, I respect it. I just think modern rational forces, with whatever allies we can gather; Hindu, Christian, and otherwise; need to (eventually) defeat it.

Rationality as a force is often exaggerated. The irrational has in history has shown itself to be far more vigorous. Rationality also has a tendency to consume itself in adherence to Communism, National Socialism, and Jacobin ideology.
We in the West don't have a lot of time. Europe is collapsing demographically and economically. Time is on their side as they are the ones having babies.

BTW, what if the Muslim Reformation is already underway?

The Reformation was a return to scripture on the part of Protestants to discover a more spiritual Christianity.

Who in the Muslim world does that sound like to you?

What if we are in Afghanistan fighting the reformers we know as the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and elsewhere as the Muslim Brotherhood?

43

Fuck you, Christoph.

Just for the record.

44

OT ...Teacher found dead, mauled to death. In Alaska. Wolf tracks surrounding body are coincidence.

That is all.

45
Jeez Sargon, never thought of that.  What if wahhibism is 'reform'?  So much for enlightenment.

46 "Fuck you, Christoph."

I believe that would be unbiblical. But thank you for the thought. I'll take it under advisement, check Google Contacts, and see who's free.

Timely reminder!

47 "get the tribal leaders behind you..." the armed forces have been doing this in iraq & afghanistan for years, conducting tactically, politically & culturally thoughtful & discreet operations. this has been fairly well publicized on tv & in print. probably the most sensitive to civilian casualties in our history. & this is what is so puzzling and reprehensible of the msm & mr. hanks to continue to promulgate from their august heights the ideas of our military as stupid, brutal & reckless in explicit assertions.

48 I'll give Bush & Cheney apropos for fusing the Military into one fighting force and now the progs are politicizing it, no room in war for politics, let us clear the area and then you can talk about politics!

49 gomm,

Hear, hear.

50 Nice retort. How many times have you rehearsed it?

51 I can actually think on my feet, ErikW.

And the best humour has a strong basis in fact.

52 Dang Straights, Nam Grunt, Dave in Texas, and all the rest of y'all stalwarts:

I was watching the boob toob the other day. Military (discovery conglom) channel.
They had a block of episodes on, back to back, about the service academies.

I shit you not on this. In one epi, they showed some of the "ethics" class stuff. Here's this numbnut of a teacher asking if it's ethical to continue to engage an enemy after a tactical objective has been taken. His contention was that, since the objective had been taken, any further harm inflicted upon the enemy was just piling on and therefore bad.

Is that really the kind of brain dead, intellectually inbred bullshit that's being taught in our service academies?

Enemy is enemy. The only time an enemy isn't to be engaged is when he's either too wounded to fight and, therefore, in the process of being captured, or when he's already captured. Otherwise, kill em if you see em. The enemy allowed to run away today comes back to kill you and yours tomorrow, or later that night.

Fucking retards.

Now, it's making more and more sense that Noam Chomsky was an "honored guest speaker" at ... can't remember... either West Point or Annapolis.


Fucking Clintonistas.

53 Forgot to say...

Semper Fi all y'all.

54

And the best humour has a strong basis in fact.

Of which you are lacking as evidenced by your ramblings here. Do continue though, I'd hate to stop you from making an ass of yourself.

55
His contention was that, since the objective had been taken, any further harm inflicted upon the enemy was just piling on and therefore bad.

Son of a bitch.

I believe it.  Hell that's what the JAG is for, protecting the enemy, right? 

56 I shit you not on this. In one epi, they showed some of the "ethics" class stuff. Here's this numbnut of a teacher asking if it's ethical to continue to engage an enemy after a tactical objective has been taken. His contention was that, since the objective had been taken, any further harm inflicted upon the enemy was just piling on and therefore bad.

Is that really the kind of brain dead, intellectually inbred bullshit that's being taught in our service academies?

Grimmy

That is just unbelievable. Do you know which academy? What next are snipers going to be outlawed 'cause their so unfair'. War is brutal and ugly and justice has nothing to do with it.

57 Well I piled on in 'Nam every firefight me and my guys were involved in, I called in gunships and Tac airstrikes just to make sure and yes I popped goofy grape smoke for their gun target line and gave the order to fire for effect, not to mention the Redleg I was calling in, main objective was to protect my men damn the cost!!!!!

58 All just in case some of his friends were lurking in the background of those assholes we killed.

59 "I shit you not on this. In one epi, they showed some of the "ethics" class stuff. Here's this numbnut of a teacher asking if it's ethical to continue to engage an enemy after a tactical objective has been taken. His contention was that, since the objective had been taken, any further harm inflicted upon the enemy was just piling on and therefore bad."

I think it rather depends if the enemy has surrendered or not. If not, kill away.

60 59,

Don't think you would walk point for me!

61 "That is just unbelievable. Do you know which academy? What next are snipers going to be outlawed 'cause their so unfair'."

Don't be ridiculous. As long as the spotter shouts out a fair warning on a bullhorn it's okay.

62 "Don't think you would walk point for me!"

You never know.

63 Don't be ridiculous. As long as the spotter shouts out a fair warning on a bullhorn it's okay.

Posted by: U.S. Military Ethics Instructor at March 14, 2010 04:29 PM (0fq7b)

So shouldn't we be teaching the Muslims their 'Safe Word'? If we don't, I am telling you somebody could get hurt!

64 62,

Maybe ammo bearer for the gunner in my unit, but even that lowly job requires you to stick your head into the fight when it happens.

65 DrewM:

Afghanistan was plenty stable enough before the Sovs rolled in and tore everything up.
The Taliban is not Afghan. It's a Paki production foisted off on Afghanistan.

I suspect part of the problem some of us may have in discussing "stable Afghanistan" issues is expectations or definitions of what stable entails. It does NOT mean Afghanistan becomes a mini USA or mirrors some western EUnix nation. It means Afghanistan becomes stable enough to no longer be a resource for our enemy. That is it. That is all. And, in reality, that's all that was ever meant.

Much of the confusion and despair is churned up by idiot journos without a clue and talking  heads on tv vomiting up endless streams of outright bullshit.

A HUGE problem during the previous years of our engagement in Afghanistan has been the pathetic, incompetent, maliciously perfidious retardism that is the ISAF. France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc... never even tried to pull their weight. Never did a damn thing but set up their own little fiefdoms, refuse to coordinate with anyone else, play double games in local politics and talk shit about the US.

Now that the US is in there big, Australia, Canada, UK, Danes, Estonians, Latvians, etc can get busy and not have to spend so much effort watching their backs for the shitheads in ISAF HQ with  knives.

66

I really only KNOW two things

1.) Never bet against a jarhead when death is on the line.

2.) If I ever look on heavens scenes I will surley find the streets are gaurded by United States Marines.

67 66,

The most best friend that I have ever known in life to date is right there with them, he died in my arms that day a long, long time ago! He was the best Army LRRP Airborne Trooper I have ever known and I have seen many.

68 65 Afghanistan was plenty stable enough before the Sovs rolled in and tore everything up.

WTF Over?

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan to prop up a failing socialist regime. It was anything but stable.

69 'Nam Grunt, I don't doubt your bravery in the face of the enemy and all the fear that goes with it.

Sorry to hear about your friend. I'm sure that was a great loss for you, himself, and his family, and only one of many.

I'm not in the same situation so have no comment on what I would or would not do.

70 Afghanistan has NEVER been stable, it has always been a wasteland, thanks to our Troops it's starting to look like a genuine Country, but it shore is going to be expensive to get it all the way there.

71 69,

It's not about bravery, it's about doing the job we were and are trained to do, bravery happens when you don't expect it to happen, it's what kind of person you are that spurs bravery and I think that's an over used adjective, Grunts care about who is next to them, there is a love within these combat units that is stronger than blood family and unless you have ever experienced combat you won't know what I'm speaking of.

72 68
WTF Over?

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan to prop up a failing socialist regime. It was anything but stable.

The Sovs invaded Afghanistan because they could. After Vietnam, they knew we would do squat all to stop them. Also, the invasion of Afghanistan was meant to put further pressure on India. India had ports that the Sovs wanted to own. India was pretty close to being fully in the Sov "umbrella" but not quite all the way in.

The problems that Afghanistan was going on at that time were largely due to Sov interference and manipulation prior to the invasion. Also, such problems can be overcome by countries without going to full blown shitpot for decades, as Afghanistan did after the Sov invasion.

73 'Nan Grunt your buddy and my middle bro are hopefully having a nice beer and bullshit session today.

74 I have never experienced combat within the military, 'Nam Grunt, although I've experienced military training (infantry reserves) and have an idea of what it could be like, as well as personal combat, which I don't particularly enjoy yet I have an understanding of how that aspect of things work.

So far as high intensity armed military combat, by reading, study, and conversing with people as yourself and such. It's not much, but it's something. Not pretty, I gather.

Bravery as I mean it here is doing what you must do, kind of like how you described.

I'm smart enough to realize different people react differently to stress and the same person can react one way in one situation and differently at another time.

Therefore I make no predictions, certainly not publicly, as to what I would actually do, although in my mind when I mentally prepare myself for stressful situations I have an idea of how I'd like to behave.

75 70 "Afghanistan has NEVER been stable, it has always been a wasteland, thanks to our Troops it's starting to look like a genuine Country, but it shore is going to be expensive to get it all the way there."

Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at March 14, 2010 04:42 PM (QwzXa)

Not in comparisons to places we're used to thinking of as paragons of stability. But for that AO, it was plenty stable. The tribes had power in the hinterlands. The central gov was corrupt as hell, but no more corrupt than the usual 3rd world pisshole. It wasn't some place most of us would enjoy living in, but it wasn't a wasteland of marauding rape/murder/torture bands either, as it became under the Talibs.

There were rape/murder/torture bands, but they stayed mainly along the primary roads and only picked on travelers with insufficient guards, like tradition demanded. It wasn't a pretty place, but it also wasn't a place we needed to go kick ass and break things to keep the scumbags infesting the AO from coming here to kill us and break our stuff.

76 75 Grimmey,

You have to agree tho' that our Troops are making a difference, yes?

77 Believe it or not I'm not stupid, it's going to take lots of time and many, many dollars, but we have bought Iraq and Afghanistan so there's that! We cannot leave the people like we did in 'Nam thanks to the liberal cocksuckers!

78 76 75" Grimmey,

You have to agree tho' that our Troops are making a difference, yes?"

Hell yeah they are. I have nothing but good to say about your warfighters. Some of the senior officers make me wonder at times, but our actual warfighters are the best this world has ever known.

79 "Believe it or not I'm not stupid, it's going to take lots of time and many, many dollars, but we have bought Iraq and Afghanistan so there's that! We cannot leave the people like we did in 'Nam thanks to the liberal cocksuckers!"

I tend to agree, fully, with you on all the above.

80 I think the troops are making a heck of a difference, 'Nam Grunt. And they're helping decent people that are the often brutalized, repressed victims of their own misguided culture, in addition to keeping the American homeland (and America's allies) relatively secure for now.

My concern is with top-level leadership (and the American people).

If the U.S. is not persistent enough, the Iranian regime in Iran, and Taliban in Afghanistan/Pakistan, could still quite possibly prevail. This would have terrible repercussions for the people in these regions, your country, and mine and other allies.

81 Never mind Afghanistan.

I'd like to see a company of "Rogue Marines" deployed in Washington, DC for a few weeks.

New civilian leadership that appreciates the necessity for letting the military do their jobs -- and abides by the Constitution -- would improve matters immeasurably.

Right now, we have the war against Islamic terrorists being directed by...someone who thinks and acts like a Muslim terrorist.

82 80,

your country, and mine and other allies.

When you say that are you not a US citizen?

83 I'm Canadian.

84 83,

I'm sorry for you, I understand your posts now, see I'm not stupid.

85 Christoph,

I wasn't trying to be an asshole at my last response, most Americans take that road against Canadians, I fully support and praise the Canadian Military, they are right beside us in the ME, but you just don't understand that the majority of Americans are behind our mission and Troops in the ME until it's over and done.

86 As Bush pointed out, 'Nam Grunt, it won't be over in our lifetimes.

Those campaigns, maybe, but not the destruction of radical Islam as an existential threat.

In the meantime, Obama is hardly inspiring, you're so in debt funding your military with the current pace of overseas operations will be a problem, etc., and etc.

If Islam is good at one thing, it appears to be patience. I'm not saying it's unwinnable. I made the point above that a much broader victory than winning in Iraq and Afghanistan is possible.

But the concern, of course, is whether America will have the legs to outlast this enemy. As a Vietnam veteran, and I apologize if this comes across as personal it certainly isn't meant that way, I'm sure you at least understand if not agree with my concern.

87 But the concern, of course, is whether America will have the legs to outlast this enemy.

Posted by: Christoph at March 14, 2010 05:27 PM (0fq7b)

Sadly, I don't think anybody can hope to outlast the Islamic Threat.  All we're doing is trying to hold them off.  We're smacking down the worst of them as best we can, but we're doing nothing to stop the creation of new terrorists.  The only way that can be accompished is to reduce the breeding population, as Islam itself is the cause of terrorism, and it spreads only through conquest and reproduction.    Until we throw off the chains we have put upon our own strength and deal with the muslims (all of them) as the existential threat that they are, we are doomed to keep fighting, growing ever weaker until they finally outlast us.  I just hope the defense holds until after I'm dead.

88 If the battle is between the Christian and Islam culture(s), I agree, Reactionary.

However, I'd point out that secularism -- atheism, deism, pantheism, etc. -- is winning "converts" or should I say "dropouts", at an accelerating rate.

There, I believe, is the ultimate victory, if any. (I realize my thought is hardly likely to be popular here.)

89 Oh, and paradoxically it could also lead to defeat. Since a united vibrant Christiany might militarily defeat Islam.

Yet it's the science that Christianity originally tried to suppress which is what gives "the West" the power it has in the first place, which is really ironic.

A combination of military might, "shock and awe" (blood shedding), economic productivity, and ideologically undermining Islam, whether by conversion to Christianity, moderation, or secularism, will be necessary to defeat it.

It's not a given, but it isn't impossible either. With leadership, it can be done.

90 However, I'd point out that secularism -- atheism, deism, pantheism, etc. -- is winning "converts" or should I say "dropouts", at an accelerating rate.

Posted by: Christoph at March 14, 2010 05:41 PM (0fq7b)

So increasingly secular Europe is an example of the great victory over religion you see coming? You cannot be serious!

91 it's the science that Christianity originally tried to suppress Really, can you give it a rest today? I don't mind you harboring your faith, but can you keep your venom to yourself, just once?

92 Yet it's the science that Christianity originally tried to suppress which is what gives "the West" the power it has in the first place, which is really ironic.

Christoph

That was Islam, rational Communism, and modern secular Political Correctness that were and are suppressing science. Science, Occam's razor, etc came from Christian Europe and Christian America.

No irony involved.

93 sharrukin,

No, increasingly-secular Europe is less robust at fighting Islam than previously-Christian was (as demonstrated during the Crusades and colonialism, for that matter).

Yet it's a fact. Due to advancements in science and our understanding of history which are causing free educated people to leave Christianity, or be much less serious in their following of it, that is the trend.

Causing a similar trend for the same reason PLUS as a reaction against the oppression and brutality those people suffer, is a useful weapon in the fight against radical Islam.

The same forces would be at work. It's just harder because they're less free, and more brainwashed. On the other hand, they're treated badly and have more to rebel against. Further, other brainwashed repressed people's have liberated themselves and their minds, usually with outside help.

94 88 If the battle is between the Christian and Islam culture(s), I agree, Reactionary.
Posted by: Christoph at March 14, 2010 05:41 PM (0fq7b)   I hope it's clear that the war is between Islam and everybody else.  Some just choose not to acknowledge the fact.  The muslims are happy to murder people of any religion, including their own, over the slightest disagreement.  You're never going to covert enough of them to secularism or animism or whatever else to win.  And every day they get closer to having weapons of mass destruction, which they will happily use on you.  Just because we in the West are squeamish about genocide doesn't mean that the Muslims would hesitate.  It's their wet dream.   As for your vision of ultimate victory, I suggest you look to secular states and see what they have to offer in terms of culture.  Personally, I'm not impressed.  Non-belief in God is not equivalent to enlightenment.  Especially when people deduce that they they are not answerable to any higher moral authority, and that morality itself is merely a human construction.  Once people reach that state they won't have to wait for any hell in the afterlife.  They'll have it here.

95 "Science, Occam's razor, etc came from Christian Europe and Christian America."

These were mostly decendants of Greco Roman philosophies, most emphatically not Catholic Christian ones.

Rejecting Catholicism during the reformation, and later embracing deistic thinking during the Reformation, lead to a burst of science. Which the Christian church did try to suppress, you may remember.

Same with evolution. There are STILL people who insist on homeschooling their children in America with textbooks that teach evolution is a lie, the Bible true, etc.

Obviously many people will believe that is exactly the case. Heck I used to.

But to say that Christianity has been the booster of science is silly. It's been the opponent of science, but since it's a less brutal religion than some, it was easier for intelligent curious people to practice science in Christian nations than in others.

96 Sorry Chris but you are Canadian and have no bizness in our bizness, we are not crusaders in the ME we are saving oppressed Countries from themselves, that's what American Soldiers do, read some history books that are factual!

97 Due to advancements in science and our understanding of history which are causing free educated people to leave Christianity Christoph, if you actually understood Western history, which you clearly don't, you would know that Christianity has been a driving force behind increased learning and knowledge. You are an atheist, and have the right to that faith, but kindly shut up for just a little while.

98 * and later embracing deistic thinking during the Reformation Enlightenment

Apologies. That would have been confusing to read.

99
  Nam, you had a great idea about sticking some on the shitburning detail earlier--I'd add one more--quarter them downwind.

100 "Christoph, if you actually understood Western history, which you clearly don't, you would know that Christianity has been a driving force behind increased learning and knowledge."

Really. Tell that to Galileo. Or Copernicus. Or Darwin.

101 Yet it's a fact. Due to advancements in science and our understanding of history which are causing free educated people to leave Christianity, or be much less serious in their following of it, that is the trend.

So destroying western society and its faith in itself, and purpose is really a very clever plan on someone's part? Who knew?

BTW, what understanding of history are you talking about? The make it up as you go along so popular in Communism and increasingly popular here? Deconstructionalism amd post-modernist bullshit is soul destroying and no one is going to fight for this secular claptrap.

Causing a similar trend for the same reason PLUS as a reaction against the oppression and brutality those people suffer, is a useful weapon in the fight against radical Islam.

And yet, they are getting more radical as the decades pass, not less.

102 It's been the opponent of science This is not a fact. This is a part of your creed. Believe what you wish, but please keep the non-sensical blather to yourself, just for a while.

103 Christoph,

I'm going out on a limb here, forget our combat capabilities for a moment, but do you believe that man is causing global warming?

104 "I'm going out on a limb here, forget our combat capabilities for a moment, but do you believe that man is causing global warming?"

No. Not to any important degree. We're in an interglacial period, probably near the end of one, and an ice age is a much more realistic, and serious, threat.

105 Tell that to Galileo. You don't know jack-shit about the politics of Galileo's day. He dealt with princes interested in their status quo. Again, I know you are an evangelical atheist, but kindly give it a rest.

106

Yet it's the science that Christianity originally tried to suppress which is what gives "the West" the power it has in the first place, which is really ironic.

Posted by: Christoph at March 14, 2010 05:44 PM (0fq7b)

The Judeo Christian doctrine that the universe is an orderly creation of an intelligent God is what made European science possible.  It is the reason that the West progressed while the East stagnated.  The East could discover, but they could not invent.  They did not believe in an orderly universe that man could understand.  Western man believed that God had created a reasonable, rational and orderly universe that man could figure out, as part of his quest to know God.  This is the still the case to some degree - and is why almost everything is invented either here or in Europe.  The Japanese, Chinese, etc can only copy what we come up with and refine it. 

Christian monks did more to preserve knowledge during the dark ages than anyone else in Europe.  It was the Catholic hierarchy which used its power to suppress knowledge contrary to the non-biblical teachings it had been passing off as fact.  They had no biblical justification to do so, any more than a legalistic busybody calling himself a Christian has any right to make up extensions to biblical teaching and pass off his rules as holy writ.  The bible doesn't say that the earth is flat, nor that the sun revolves around it.  The rise of Protestantism, decentralizing the church and getting the Papacy off people's backs, really let things take off. 

107 Christoph,

Then may I say with all respect to the Canadian Military, that you sir are a fucking moonbat, nature controls what happens on earth no one or anything else.

108

Christoph, you have no "understanding of history." I've heard that red-diaper crap before. Go sell it on the street corner.  You're living in the moldy past.

In all of the western world outside the EU--the Anglosphere, South and Central America, all of North America--participation in religion, and particularly Christianity, is increasing, not fading away. We'll just throw in Africa and Korea/China/Japan along with that. Sorry about your campus.

Reactionary, there is hope of a non-militant Islam. Within my lifetime, Shinto, Hinduism, and a couple of radical Christian sects were despaired of as being unreformable. Yet, Tom Hanks nothwithstanding, "we" did a hell of a job on Shinto. It still exists, in some numbers too, and is not a secret revenge sect: it was converted, if you want to call it that, or pruned of its maniacal excess, and is now capable of lending comfort and dignity to its followers without a mandate to murder. Sure Islam has been wrong for longer, and more expressly wrong at that, but it can [or could] be done. Now, to your point: can it be done without widespread extermination? This is open to speculation. I hope you are wrong, but wishing will not make it so.  

 

 

109 These were mostly decendants of Greco Roman philosophies, most emphatically not Catholic Christian ones.

Rejecting Catholicism during the reformation, and later embracing deistic thinking during the Reformation, lead to a burst of science. Which the Christian church did try to suppress, you may remember.

Christoph

That's total crap. You know I was going to write a post in reply to this, but then I went back to what I had written earlier... People cannot be reasoned out of a position they were never reasoned into, and thought, hey take your own advice.

You are taking council of your fear and anti-clerical bigotry to make shit up to support your pre-conceived notions. You sound like a smart guy and that becomes a problem when your intellect becomes a slave to your passions.

110 "This is not a fact. This is a part of your creed. Believe what you wish, but please keep the non-sensical blather to yourself, just for a while."

Why don't you try instead to put up examples of your position as I have done instead of just repeating the same claim over and over again?

Then perhaps you'd have a leg to stand on when it comes talking about "blather".

Sure, Christians have benefited from science, and many Christians have been scientists. (Although the percentage of believing Christians who are scientists is lower than the general pop.)

But to say the Christian Church, in particular the Old Roman Catholic Church before the Reformation which was forced upon it, were huge boosters of free thought and science, is just farcical propaganda.

111 You sound like a smart guy and that becomes a problem when your intellect becomes a slave to your passions. What he said.

112

And so bold Sir Christoph sallies forth to combat...the Old Roman Catholic Church before the Reformation!

Give it a rest, Trotskyette. Your own movement has newer claptrap thatn this to peddle. Try to keep up.  At least saddle up with the 1959 New Left.

113 "In all of the western world outside the EU--the Anglosphere, South and Central America, all of North America--participation in religion, and particularly Christianity, is increasing, not fading away."

If you mean there are tons of Christians who don't take their faith particularly seriously and use it as a big social club, then sure.

And "all of North American"? Canada is North America and it certainly isn't true here.

Look, Christianity is growing in some areas, reducing in others. But as a force it is much less than it was.

Once upon a time the Pope could raise and move armies. Now he's being lampooned for any part he may have had in covering up pedophile priest scandals.

The remaining Protestant churches are divided, and yes, some are growing, some not, but the level of energy and seriousness of the average "believer" is not what it once was.

One of the reasons (not the only one) that Islam is ascendant right now is that it's a younger faith, and has yet more energy. Much like many religions including polytheistic faiths of days past grew, and then waned.

You view Christianity as true. I get that. For you, it pretty much has to end up with some Christians somewhere. I however view it as a social phenomena, a meme if you will, and they can last a long time, but no religion lasts forever, it seems.

Maybe Christianity will turn around, kick butt, and save us all, including me, from Islam. But I doubt it.

114 Why don't you try instead to put up examples of your position as I have done instead of just repeating the same claim over and over again? No. Wrong. You have not put up any examples of your position. "What about Galileo?" is not an example. I countered that you most likely know next to nothing about Galileo. You claim that Christianity is anti-science, but give nothing to back that assertion. You are like a witch-doctor trying to scare the newly converted. You invoke your saints and I yawn at your invocation. Please, if you must continue your knee-jerk evangelism, show us you know more than just the correct spelling of 'Copernicus'.

115

"we" did a hell of a job on Shinto. It still exists, in some numbers too, and is not a secret revenge sect: it was converted, if you want to call it that, or pruned of its maniacal excess, and is now capable of lending comfort and dignity to its followers without a mandate to murder. Sure Islam has been wrong for longer, and more expressly wrong at that, but it can [or could] be done. Now, to your point: can it be done without widespread extermination? This is open to speculation. I hope you are wrong, but wishing will not make it so.  

Posted by: comatus at March 14, 2010 06:09 PM (/VEEI)

With respect, I contend that the worst of the Japanese, even including those responsible for the Batan Death March, were dramatically more civilized than the muslims.  They were ashamed to admit what they had done, and there while the Japanese people may not have much cared when foreigners were slaughered, neither did they make a party out of it. 

The Islamics are nearly devoid of normal human sentiment.  It is driven from them at an early age and replaced with a belief system that is so ugly, so devoid of real spirituality and mired in carnal concerns, that it is impossible for people outside it to understand the mentality in anything other than an intellectual way.  They are perpetuallty bloodthirsty, and wholly irrational.  They are unreformable because their basic text is wholly corrupt and base.   You would have to excise so much of the Koran to make it tolerable that you would necessarily void the entire faith.

I hope that one day we cast aside this sentimental aversion to dealing with them effectively, once and for all.

 

116 The remaining Protestant churches are divided, and yes, some are growing, some not, but the level of energy and seriousness of the average "believer" is not what it once was.

One of the reasons (not the only one) that Islam is ascendant right now is that it's a younger faith, and has yet more energy. Much like many religions including polytheistic faiths of days past grew, and then waned.

Christoph

You talk about rationality and yet you cannot see the blindingly obvious. You Christoph are helping Islam and you think this is a great idea and somehow rationalism will pull a rabbit out of the proverbial hat.

How? What's the end game here? Do you think refining your arguments for the day of the Great Debate with Islam is somehow going to do the trick?

117 Even Mormonism is growing and ascendant in part because of its youth and energy.

I'm not a Mormon nor any fan of its doctrines, but I still get that. If you look upon religion as a naturalistic phenomena, it becomes more understandable how they grow and fade.

Personally, and compelling Mormon Missionaries aside (yep, I've had the discussions) I don't think it's because the Holy Spirit speaks to your heart.

I think it's 'cause a person (with energy, passion, and committment, plus persuasive communications skills) knocks on your door and speaks to you.

118 Ah, Christoph. The atheist Jehovah's Witness of Ace of Spades busy ringing your doorbell at 8:30 a.m. Saturday morning.

119

You guys are wasting your time arguing religion with Christoph. He used to come on and spout his anti-religion BS everyday and Ace told him in to uncertain terms at the threat of permanent banishment to cease this crap.

I guess that he has noticed that Ace hasn't been around much.

120

Its best to leave the Corps, oops, corpse, do its thing away from army interferance.

When the army runs the show the doggies will garrison assault forces at Kah Sahn when the Marines should have been moble & killing people instead.

Give 'em a sector and get out of the way. Don't dangle 'em like at Faluja

SF Marines...cpl class of 60

 

121 Honestly, both Iraq and Afghanistan are lost causes and have been since we've refused to face up to what it is that we are fighting which is Jihad.

I know that it gnaws people the wrong way to admit that despite all the lives lost and money spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it was all for nothing.

We've replaced an Islamic government in Afghanistan with another Islamic government. We've overthrown a brutal dictator who ran a mostly secular government (for the mid-east at least) with a new puppet state for the Islamic government of Iran. Also, we are still blinded by the political correctness which insists that Islam is a religion of peace and that the terrorists are just mistaking the true nature of the religion when really they are following in the footsteps of Mohammad.

122 Or, I could actually have been discussing ideas, Vic, but you wouldn't know much about that.

123 "Honestly, both Iraq and Afghanistan are lost causes and have been since we've refused to face up to what it is that we are fighting which is Jihad.

"We've replaced an Islamic government in Afghanistan with another Islamic government. We've overthrown a brutal dictator who ran a mostly secular government (for the mid-east at least) with a new puppet state for the Islamic government of Iran. Also, we are still blinded by the political correctness which insists that Islam is a religion of peace and that the terrorists are just mistaking the true nature of the religion when really they are following in the footsteps of Mohammad."

I fear you may be right (but maybe not and I hold out hope).

That's one of the reasons I started my commenting on this thread by saying victory is possible... with the right leadership and a recognition of the problem and the task ahead... which we haven't had yet.

Not Bush nor Blair nor anyone in particular. Howard probably came the closest, but what could Australia do?

This is a death-knell clash of civilizations and a leader is needed who will say so.

124

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125 The Corps wrote the book on counterinsurgency, literally: The Small Wars Manual.

126 Christoph:
Our "separation of church and state" also applies to militant atheism. And yes, atheism is a religion that requires faith.

I know you're a heathen foriegn devil so it doesn't apply to you so much. But for our own domestic militant atheists, word of warning...


When y'all abuse the "separation" thing to force the removal of a memorial to our fallen of WW2 because it had a cross and was on land taken over by the gov, your making the kind of enemy that does the "close with and destroy" thing pretty good.

Semper Fi Mother Fuckers.

127

Jarheads are latecomers to the Afghan fight. The Army SpecOps and other Soldiers have been there awhile.

The population center idea was Obama's idea, NOT THE ARMY's.

As for the "population center" shit, this was my take (as a former Soldier) back in October of last year:

Okay, let me get this straight:  He (Obama) plans on providing troops and resources to secure 10 populated areas, while the Taliban (and Al Qaeda) continue to come in from ouside the country, and for that matter, flourish outside the bounds of these secured areas.  That presents a serious problem; American Soldiers will be holed up inside these towns, fending off renewed attacks by the enemy.  Can you say sitting ducks?

No plans to carry on the fight, and finish off the bastards by killing them and kicking them out of Afghanistan. No plans to deal with any indigenous terrorists or establish internal control. No plans to continue to put pressure on Pakistan to get rid of the Taliban influence in their government, and safehavens in their country.

President Punchdrunk and his side kick Sheriff Joe are two halves of a shit sandwich.  General McCrystal has every right to tell the pseudo “Commander-in-Chief” to kiss his ass, and walk away.  The last thing a wartime General needs is an insipid, total waste of skin “president”, who hasnÂ’t one bit of understanding of how the nationÂ’s wars are to be fought and won, let alone a sense of duty.  My heart goes out to the troops.  They are bearing the brunt of decisions made by a maladroit assclown.

Hey Obama, Mullah Mohammed Omar called.  He says ‘thanks for the helpÂ’.

@Butch:

BTW The Army's manual on COIN:

FM 3-24: http:// www.scribd.com/doc/9137276/  US-Army-Field-Manual-FM-324-Counterinsurgency

128 Thank you for letting us know so much information about Marines.

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