1 It's the union thing to do.....

2 At over 10% unemployment it should be too hard to find and train new transit workers.

You want to bone the private sector that pays you and the Germans that bail you out, I say the make it so that they get boned back  by firing the workers and refusing unemployment benefits.

3 Way to accelerate the inevitable collapse, Greece. 

It's time you realized that whining like babies won't get you out of the mess you created for yourselves.

4 ...Chris Christie would do it.

5 You're in a monetary crises so what do you do?  Hinder commerce. 

Idiots.

6

Maybe their employers could go on strike too. 

"Hey Cristos, I'd love to pay you, but the payroll department is on strike.  Maybe next month."

 

7
Another party at the Obama White House last night.

I'm sure the democrats will come up with a "bill" that will give Greece our tax-payer funded bailout.  After all, Greece is a socialist paradise.  Gotta funnel money from the productive to the leisure class - world wide baby.





.

8 Step 1. Go on strike.
Step 2. ???
Step 3. Profit.

9

On the flip side, I'm sure they think that "there are so many other places to trim the budget" or somesuch.

Here in the DFW Metroplex cities are looking at having to cut non-essencial services (ie: public libraries, public swimming pools, etc.) to close budget gaps and people are up in arms about it.  It's as though people don't understand that the things you <i>need</i> are the things that should get paid for first.  Like water and waste, the PD, FD, and EMS, etc...

10 Thankfully, our leaders have the wisdom to learn from Greece's mistakes. Yeah, it's crack. Got a light?

11 I harp on this European situation so much because it is going to play out on our own shores in places like California and New York. Unionized public-sector workers, here as in Greece, are going to fight cuts to their benefits tooth and nail. You're going to hear lots of rhetoric about how the "little guy" is being penalized while the "fat cats" get off scot free, but in this case the "little guy" is the government (and government workers) and the "fat cats" are the private-sector wage-earners and business owners. The first battle of the new civil war is going to be between the public-sector workers and the private sector. The next one is going to be between retirees and workers. (In other words, the battle lines are being drawn between recipients of entitlements or public funds and the people who have to pay for them.)

12 This strikes me as the reflex action of a deeply demoralized populace, I have to say. No one thinks that striking will actually do any good,

Sure it does.  The workers can go to the beach. 

13 This is what happens when socialism has run its course. when the money dries up, when no one is producing anymore, the neutered populace doesn't know what to do. They have forgotten how to do for themselves, and in these countries you have two generations of people that have been "taken care of" by the nanny state for so long they do not know how to make their way in the world anymore. Instead of striking, they should be creating. Instead of rioting, they should be starting up businesses, and coming up with new products. Instead, they are pissed because the hand outs have dried up. I hate to tell ya Greece, but the well is dry. There aren't enough producers to pay for your month-long vacations, and your bloated pensions. We Americans don't take month-long vacations, and we sock our own money away because we know no one is going to take care of us - well, at lest the smart Americans do. The sad thing is, if America doesn't stop this spend-a-thon express we are going to be in the same boat as Greece very soon. People need to wake up - NOW!

14

Monty,

Any word on the Spanish banks like Santander?

I think when one of them starts to implode that will be the end of the EU as it exists and will guarantee the exit of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and maybe even Italy and Hungary.

15 "Hey Cristos, I'd love to pay you, but the payroll department is on strike.  Maybe next month."

Cristos then sets fire to the payroll department.

16 Here in the DFW Metroplex cities are looking at having to cut non-essencial services (ie: public libraries, public swimming pools, etc.) to close budget gaps and people are up in arms about it.

Philly cut those last year and the same thing happened. The typical response being, "What till the children do now? They'll just get into more trouble!!11!!!." Never considering that these kids are getting in to trouble in the evening, when these things are closed. But now I have an extra $360 in property taxes to look forward to, all for more services that I won't use, but the people who constantly mooch off me will. 

17 I believe most wars are started over religion and boobies.  Money is a close third, no?

18 The next civil war could likely devolve into a really nasty free for all.  Society is splintered into a lot of factions, and those factions have been set one against the other like dogs at a pit fight.

19 As a public-sector worker, I must say that the pension system is a load. At this point you don't contribute nearly as much as you get out.

 Plus, I'd rather have the extra cash to be available invest.

20 I don't think they're "demoralized". I think they're dumb as stumps.

Seriously -- do you think the people taking to the streets have any idea how to actually work for a living?

21

On the flip side, I'm sure they think that "there are so many other places to trim the budget" or somesuch.

Here in the DFW Metroplex cities are looking at having to cut non-essencial services (ie: public libraries, public swimming pools, etc.) to close budget gaps and people are up in arms about it.  It's as though people don't understand that the things you <i>need</i> are the things that should get paid for first.  Like water and waste, the PD, FD, and EMS, etc...

I always find it funny that when there is a budget crunch, the local government always says, "do you want us to cut police and firemen?".

It's such a cheap ploy. No I want you to cut your salary. I want you to cut your expense account. I want you to pay for your own car. I want you to cut non essential services. Stop giving me this fireman and policeman bullshit. Cut your pet projects.

Police, Fire, Roads, Water, Sewer. That is all I really care about.

Maybe it is time libraries and public pools are paid for through philanthropy. Instead of donating money to haiti or some shit country, donate it to your local pool or library.

Here in Pittsburgh there is a reason EVERY library is named "Carnegie Library". It's because Andrew Carnegie paid for it all. Maybe its time Bill and Melinda Gates spend money on American philanthropic causes instead of global ones.

22 The first battle of the new civil war is going to be between the public-sector workers and the private sector. The next one is going to be between retirees and workers. (In other words, the battle lines are being drawn between recipients of entitlements or public funds and the people who have to pay for them.)

I've been saying for some time that the Boomers are in for a shock as they start retiring and the kids that they ignored, treated as a fashion accessory, used as pawns in the divorce, etc. etc.* look at the bill they're being handed to pay for their parents' retirement and say "No."  There's a ton of seething anger out there by the Gen Xers who are having to pay the price for their parents' refusal to act like adults and plan for the future.  The people my age (sigh early 40's when did that happen) and younger, no matter what the politics, openly laugh at the idea that Social Security will be there when we retire.  Being asked to pay high taxes to take care of parents who didn't take care of you?  Yeah.  That's a winner.

It's going to get really ugly.  Really fast.

*Yes, yes, I'm painting with a broad brush, I freely admit that, but sadly it's more common than not.

23

 Here in the DFW Metroplex cities are looking at having to cut non-essencial services (ie: public libraries, public swimming pools, etc.) to close budget gaps and people are up in arms about it.

Philly cut those last year and the same thing happened. The typical response being, "What till the children do now? They'll just get into more trouble!!11!!!." Never considering that these kids are getting in to trouble in the evening, when these things are closed. But now I have an extra $360 in property taxes to look forward to, all for more services that I won't use, but the people who constantly mooch off me will. 

my monthy mortgage property taxes almost double my mortgage. Its getting pretty close to the point where my monthly tax is equal to my monthly loan payment

24 Maybe it is time libraries and public pools are paid for through philanthropy. Instead of donating money to haiti or some shit country, donate it to your local pool or library.

At this point the only people who use public libraries are perverts trying to score free porn and ensnare young children with the internet. They're so under utilized it's not even funny.

25

I'm very glad that Greece has signed up to the be the test case allowing the rest of us to see what happens when things collapse.  This could be a very instructive process.  I hope the thinkers on our side are taking notes, and keeping a record of the sequence of events.  While I hate to see my investments punished, at the same time I am eager to see what happens to the Greeks.  I am also intrigued by the idea of the current manifestation of the EU collapsing, and turning the Northern portion of  the continent into a new German Empire, sorta like in the old days.  And imagine - when it all tumbles down - how many smug Eurotrash are going to have their noses rubbed, ever so vigorously, in their own sick.  Especially these entitled, whinging strikers who will suddenly have no employment to go on strike from (not that it will stop them from "striking").

We all knew Eurosocialism would fail in the end, but who dared imagine getting to see it unfold? 

 

26 Any word on the Spanish banks like Santander? The mergers of the Spanish cajas is gaining steam, but I'm not sure if that's going to solve the basic problem. This seems mainly to be a move to tap government bailout money, not to solve the underlying debt/solvency problem. It seems to me to be an accounting trick, not a fix. The cajas are kind of like the old US S&L's used to be, and lots of them are owned and operated by the Catholic Church. And the Church tended to operate the banks more on the "pity the poor" theory than on the "strong bank" theory -- which led them into the fiscal abyss they're in right now. Spain, more even than America, went all-in on the property-boom of the late '90's and the 2000's. Big banks like Santander have huge exposure to those properties, and the true scope and range of the problem is still not being admitted by Spain (which is partly why Fitch and Moody's cut their ratings).

27

21  Can I steal that and turn it in as a letter to the editor of my local rag?

The scene you are describing matches the local city to a tee (and they have a Carnegie library).

28 Here in the DFW Metroplex cities are looking at having to cut non-essencial services (ie: public libraries, public swimming pools, etc.)

I have a friend who is a librarian in that area who was whining about this.  My response was as sympathetic as you may imagine.  Now, she works at an area that's highly utilized since it's being used, pretty much, as day care by a lot of people. 

I do support her about one thing though.  She was supposed to go to a conference out of the country (why a librarian has to go to a conference out of the country is a great question but not the point at the moment).  The budget for that was cut.  Fine, that makes sense.  It's not an essential job function, it would be nice but she can do her job without this.  What doesn't make sense is she's being told that she still must go and that she must pay for it with her own funds which will not be reimbursed.  I do not blame her for being ticked off about that in the slightest.   

29 Europe is well on its way to collapse. I seriously don't think we will be far behind them. The States like CA, MI, and NY are next up for collapse and of course the feds will not allow it. They will try to bail them out.

The problem???  The feds don't have the money to bail them out either so they will simply "print it".  They have been repeatedly warned by both China and Moody's to NOT do this.  When they do Moody's and China will call them on it and the entire system will collapse.

As I have said before, the rioting and internal war will begin in the inner cities when the welfare cheese dries up it will rapidly spread to the burbs as the starving drones look for grocery stores to loot.

30

The people my age (sigh early 40's when did that happen) and younger, no matter what the politics, openly laugh at the idea that Social Security will be there when we retire.  Being asked to pay high taxes to take care of parents who didn't take care of you?  Yeah.  That's a winner.

i'm 26 and i got a letter in the mail from the Social Security Admin. It was just a reminder to pay my SS taxes, which I do, but it had a FAQ section. And one of the quesions was , "Will Social Security be there when I retire?" I can't remember the answer verbatim, but it was something along the lines of  "Estimates are 70% of the liabilities are paid for"

So they were essentially saying, no. Only 70 cents of every dollar will be there, and i don't even trust that estimate.

I really with I could stop paying my SS taxes. I think a county in Texas sued over that and won.

I think people should either save for their retirement, depend on family like humans used to do (example:parents live with their kids), or bring back that "Lodge" system that pre-dated Social Security. It was essentially the same concept as social security, but run well.

31

Posted by: Ben at June 03, 2010 09:30 AM (wuv1c)

+1

All governments love that trick.  There is waste all over the place, and the first thing to be hit is ALWAYS, without exception, a combo of police, fire, and schools, along with anything that is wildly popular.  Admittedly, the schools are a bloated and over-funded monstrosity of waste that exist only to spread Leftist propaganda, but that isn't the point.   

What I want to know is when the welfare scum are going to take their pay cut.  And when are we going to quit paying them to breed?

32

The Greeks "taking to the streets" believe that government has all the solutions and is only being mean to them by taking their sugar treats away.  They have no idea how anything really works, that's why they elected socialists in the first place, to make the decisons that the masses can't make because they are too stupid and uniformed.

The mean government just needs some motivation so the Greek people are throwing a fit to motivate them.  They don't understand that the government's only grownup course of action is to trim the treats.

33 At this point the only people who use public libraries are perverts trying to score free porn and ensnare young children with the internet. They're so under utilized it's not even funny.

Not so in the smaller towns. Both my wife and I make extensive use of the local library. In our State library computers are closely controlled by law to prevent widespread use by perverts.

34 As I have said before, the rioting and internal war will begin in the inner cities when the welfare cheese dries up it will rapidly spread to the burbs as the starving drones look for grocery stores to loot.

On the plus side, they'll do a good job of beating themselves up first.

35 sigh early 40's when did that happen I'm 42 myself, alexthechick. My back creaks when I get out of bed, and I have a smoker's hack even though I don't smoke. I eat a donut and gain 10 pounds. A slice of pizza gives me acid indigestion that lasts all day. What the hell, man?!?

36 Here in the DFW Metroplex cities are looking at having to cut non-essencial services (ie: public libraries, public swimming pools, etc.) to close budget gaps and people are up in arms about it.

Funny how they can cut the libraries--i.e., places ambitious but poor people can use to better themselves--but they can never cut the midnight basketball or the catering at the city council meetings.

37 "As I have said before, the rioting and internal war will begin in the inner cities when the welfare cheese dries up it will rapidly spread to the burbs as the starving drones look for grocery stores to loot"

So basically, we become one big zombie movie.

38

As I have said before, the rioting and internal war will begin in the inner cities when the welfare cheese dries up it will rapidly spread to the burbs as the starving drones look for grocery stores to loot.

If we can put that off for another four years, the casualties ffrom the rioting will at least have health care.

39

.I do support her about one thing though.  She was supposed to go to a conference out of the country (why a librarian has to go to a conference out of the country is a great question but not the point at the moment). 

A Librarian in Hawai'i made a revolutionary innovation to the Dewey Decimal system.  A revolution so revolutionary that it can't be spoken over the phone, sent over the internet, or teleconferenced. The secret must be told on the beaches of Hawi'i. And the taxpayer must fund it.

40 Admittedly, the schools are a bloated and over-funded monstrosity of waste that exist only to spread Leftist propaganda, but that isn't the point.  

If it makes you feel better, last year I found an excel error that had been  costing the tax-payer about $12million a year for the past three years.

41 If we can put that off for another four years, the casualties ffrom the rioting will at least have health care.

If they can check the right box under "race" and "age."  Sorry, Grams.

42 I hate to tell ya Greece, but the well is dry. There aren't enough producers to pay for your month-long vacations, and your bloated pensions.

I hate to tell ya Greece, but you didn't make enough CHILDREN to pay for any of this:

List of countries and territories by fertility rate
en.wikipedia.org

Greece, UN 2000-2005 estimate: 1.28
Greece, UN 2005-2010 estimate: 1.33

Greece, CIA 2000 estimate: 1.33
Greece, CIA 2009 estimate: 1.37

BTW - those little tiny little upward blips in fertility are almost certainly due to the Muslims.

.

43 If it makes you feel better, last year I found an excel error that had been  costing the tax-payer about $12million a year for the past three years.

Posted by: taylork at June 03, 2010 09:43 AM (0Hn5w)

Well, at first that makes me feel a little worse.  12 mill is a big number to me.  But then, I felt better because you found it.  And now, I feel a little worse again because you didn't specifically say that the excel error was fixed... 

 

44

BTW - those little tiny little upward blips in fertility are almost certainly due to the Muslims.

At least the muslims actually pay their Zakat, the Grecians don't even pay their taxes.

45 There's a ton of seething anger out there by the Gen Xers who are having to pay the price for their parents' refusal to act like adults and plan for the future.

I have to throw the BS flag on that one Alex. I am one of those much maligned "boomers" and I paid the max SS every year since I got out of the Navy. Where did all of my money go?

It went to support the "greatest generation" who passed all the laws that created this ponsi scheme. It also went to support drug addicts and other leeches who were now deemed to be "ill". Guess who passed those laws???

And which generation put all this currently round of commies in power?  It wasn't me I'll tell you that.

I am currently retired myself. So where does all my monthly income come from? Not from SS. It comes from the company cash balance plan and from interest and dividends on investments. Zero from SS since they raised the retirement age and will probably raise it again before I can get any.

46 Funny how they can cut the libraries--i.e., places ambitious but poor people can use to better themselves--but they can never cut the midnight basketball or the catering at the city council meetings.
Posted by: HeatherRadish at June 03, 2010 09:41 AM (mR7mk)  

Not so in the smaller towns. Both my wife and I make extensive use of the local library. In our State library computers are closely controlled by law to prevent widespread use by perverts.
Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2010 09:40 AM (6taRI)

Funny, it's jut not like that here. Whenever I go to a library there's practically nobody there, expect for a weirdo on the internet, and some community group using the meeting room. Not what I'd call a great use of money.

Then again, Philly has like 54 branches, only a handful that are decently well stocked.  I don't believe that you need to have a library within a short walking distance., especially if it means that comes at the expense of poorly stocking it with reference materials.

47 Posted by: alexthechick at June 03, 2010 09:31 AM (8WZWv)


I was say that  about social security 20 years ago. And I am 45.

48 Well, at first that makes me feel a little worse.  12 mill is a big number to me.  But then, I felt better because you found it.  And now, I feel a little worse again because you didn't specifically say that the excel error was fixed... 

I fixed the error. But I'm sure that extra money went to some other worthless program. Stimulus!

49 As I have said before, the rioting and internal war will begin in the inner cities when the welfare cheese dries up it will rapidly spread to the burbs as the starving drones look for grocery stores to loot.

Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2010 09:38 AM (6taRI)

Well, that would surely suck for a little while.  But imagine the long term positives.  Finally, urban renewal that works!  Eradicating the leeches would do a world of good.  Once the slums were empty they could finally be burned down for a fresh start.

The working-poor and middle class are generally well prepared to defend themselves, and regular Americans are great at forming spontaneous voluntary associations.  I assure you that my section of town could form an effective and fairly well armed micro-militia within the span of a few hours, in the face of such a threat. 

50 Its getting pretty close to the point where my monthly tax is equal to my monthly loan payment Welcome to the club, it is usually about this time that you actually start voting in all of those off-cycle local elections and reading the bond details, etc. Send your kids to private school, and you will have to go hand load spent brass in a dark basement for an hour or so every month after the payment goes in.

51 There is waste all over the place, and the first thing to be hit is ALWAYS, without exception, a combo of police, fire, and schools, along with anything that is wildly popular. I went to a city council meeting last fall and made exactly this point. The council was pissing and moaning about having to cut 'essential services' if the voters didn't authorize a tax-increase. I pointed out that surely we could do with a few less assistants to the town assembleymen, or a few less meter-maids, or a few less concrete-culvert inspectors, or a delay to the $12 million renovation of City Hall. It's a bullshit maneuver, and I never let them get away with it. Another favorite trick of theirs: any denial of an increase to their budget, year-over-year, is always decried as a cut to their budget. Bullshit. Live on your fucking budget -- everyone else has to.

52 Not so in the smaller towns. Both my wife and I make extensive use of the local library. In our State library computers are closely controlled by law to prevent widespread use by perverts.

Same here.  Public libraries get more use than the ones in the public schools.

53 The other thing that gets me about government waste is that when individual departments have a year end budget surplus, they feel the need to spend it.  My department did this, much to my objections, and ended up buying hundreds of dollars worth of crap.

The whole bureaucratic culture of you have to spend the money so that you don't face a budget cut next year pisses me off. If you totaled it up across all departments, I'm sure it'd be in the hundreds of millions of dollars of wasted revenue.

54 must buy nike air max shoes....

55 It's a bullshit maneuver, and I never let them get away with it.

Posted by: Monty at June 03, 2010 09:51 AM (4Pleu)

Well done!  It is fortunate the budgets are public documents, but digging into details can be a job.  They're not going to make it any easier to criticize the budget than they absolutely have to.  It's unfortunate that is has, essentially, become almost impossible to simply elect responsible representatives to take care of these matters.  It's getting to be like do-it-yourself government.

56

Concerning Social Security and Medicaid.

I honestly believe the Baby Boomers are going to the last generation to get both.

Here is a generation who benefited greatly from the world peace their fathers fought for,  greatly benefited from the industries their fathers and grandfathers built, and who voted themselves every benefit imaginable at the expense of their unborn(now grown up) children.

They will probably have lived the greatest and most care free lives of any human generation in the history of mankind.

57 The people my age (sigh early 40's when did that happen) and younger, no matter what the politics, openly laugh at the idea that Social Security will be there when we retire.

Newsflash: People in their 50's are openly laughing too.

58 So why the fuck does Barry continue down Greece's path?

Democrats are so sure of themselves and ARROGANT that they think "It'll be different when I try it."

Hey Barry, Everything you are trying is bound for failure!  Look at EU you dummy!

59 I have to throw the BS flag on that one Alex. I am one of those much maligned "boomers" and I paid the max SS every year since I got out of the Navy. Where did all of my money go? Vic: it's nothing personal. But it's a simple fact that Boomers, as a demographic, did not save nearly enough to fund their own retirements. Nor, in demographic terms, did they have enough children to make up for the decrease in per-capita GDP that will occur when they leave the workforce (which they're doing in ever-greater numbers right now). It's not saying that the Boomers are bad; simply that they (in aggregate) lived their lives along economic principles that turned out not to be sustainable. It's fundamentally unfair to ask younger people to bear the extra burden. A civilization that invests in the old to the detriment of the young is not long for the world. That is an absolute. You have to invest in the young to keep a civilization dynamic, and to make it worth their while to create and expand the economy. Burdening them with the care of the spendthrift elderly is a surefire way to kill the economy. Japan is probably the premier example of this problem -- watch what happens to them in the coming decade, because we're going to have the same problems a bit further down the line.

60 So why the fuck does Barry continue down Greece's path?

Democrats are so sure of themselves and ARROGANT that they think "It'll be different when I try it."

Hey Barry, Everything you are trying is bound for failure!  Look at EU you dummy!

Democrats have no concept of history or economics. They just make stuff up to suit their needs because all that matters is that "their hearts are in the right place."

61 I have the strange compulsion to brutally murder the next shoe or handbag I see.

62

Posted by: Ben at June 03, 2010 09:56 AM (wuv1c)

I'm no boomer lover, but in fairness it was the "greatest generation" and their parents who helped bring in the SS program and much of the other attendant socialist overreach.  FDR basically copied it from Otto von Bismark, with the intent of fleecing the people while providing a false sense of security (since most people were expected to die before seeing a dime).  Indeed, much of the worst damage was done while the boomers were still in diapers, and before.  That's part of what turned them into what they are. 

Civilization started to wind down right around the end of the 1800s.  Socialist thought was taking root, and doing its damage.  Secular humanism was on the rise.  WW1, perhaps the worst disaster in the history of man kind, pretty much sealed our doom.  The rest is just nature taking its course.

 

63 Greeks - just cut waste and abuse. That'll do it - it always seems to be what the Democrats' solution is, instead of cutting government spending.

64 They're so under utilized it's not even funny.

Maybe if they had books worth looking into in them....

For example, i used to go to the library near my parents all the time.   Good selection of books, they were always trying to get new stuff in.  Small, but adequate computer section.

They moved the library to a new building.  1/2 the area is computers and lounges.  They got rid of most of the collection by selling/giving away, rather than move it, so the shelves are 1/2 empty.  Of those that are there, most of the books are new-age libtard crap and Twilight.  You can use the computers to call in just about any book you can think of from the regional depository, but it takes a week or so to get to you.  This does you no good when you're doing a school research assignment, or if you're just after something to read.

65

It's not saying that the Boomers are bad; simply that they (in aggregate) lived their lives along economic principles that turned out not to be sustainable. It's fundamentally unfair to ask younger people to bear the extra burden.

Evan Sayet had a good article or speech on this. It is the direct result of the "live for today" attitude of that generation. By definition if you live for today, you don't care about tomorrow. There are no consequences in their minds.

As it turns out hedonism isn't a good economic policy for a nation or its individuals.

66 Reactionary, and the whole God is Dead thing ...

67 As it turns out hedonism isn't a good economic policy for a nation or its individuals.

Hey, it's great at the time.

68 There's a razor-thin line between a strike and a violent revolution.

69 Vic: it's nothing personal. But it's a simple fact that Boomers, as a demographic, did not save nearly enough to fund their own retirements.

It is not just the boomers Monty.  No segment of the U.S.'s population saves enough for retirement (on average).  From what I have seen the current load of young people save even less.

I just get tired of hearing about evil boomers. Most of what you hear is pure BS myth created by the MFM. We shouldn't be buying into it.

70 The other thing that gets me about government waste is that when individual departments have a year end budget surplus, they feel the need to spend it.

Bureaucracy is just another form of Replicator.  The behaviors you observe are simply part of the base code. 

71

I'm no boomer lover, but in fairness it was the "greatest generation" and their parents who helped bring in the SS program and much of the other attendant socialist overreach.  FDR basically copied it from Otto von Bismark, with the intent of fleecing the people while providing a false sense of security (since most people were expected to die before seeing a dime).  Indeed, much of the worst damage was done while the boomers were still in diapers, and before.  That's part of what turned them into what they are. 

 

Yes and Bismarck stole his idea from Alfred Krupp's General Regulativ of 1872.

However you have to keep in mind that Social Security as instituted by FDR was never meant to be paid out. That is why the age for SS eligibility was above the average life expectancy of the time. 

 if i am not mistaken it wasn't until the baby boomer generation that the government began raiding the Social Security funds and leaving IOUs.

Also, I do think Social Security can be solvent. It is possible. The biggest problem is convincing americans Social Security ISN'T a retirement plan. It is a supplement income. 

72 Another problem with Social Security and the Boomers is just this: they think of it as a kind of retirement account rather than the safety-net it was intended to be. Means-testing SS payouts would do a lot to improve the solvency of the program (though it would still essentially be a Ponzi scheme). However, even wealthy retirees would scream bloody murder if this were to happen due to how the program has been touted over the years: as a "lockbox" in which "your money" is stored, to be drawn down after retirement. SS is a tax, not a benefit, and was intended to be a backstop to your own retirement funds, not a replacement for your own retirement funds. Boomers as a class simply assumed that SS would form a primary portion of their retirement funds, and consequently did not save enough of their own income. But SS itself is a "pay as you go" system; there is no reserve. There is no vault with money in it. There is just a huge stack of gubmint IOU's that has to be redeemed by somebody -- and Junior is going to balk when he finds out how much of his own money is going to have to be paid to Granddad to make all those promises good.

73 39 She was supposed to go to a conference out of the country...  A Librarian in Hawai'i made a revolutionary innovation...
-------------
Well, that's certainly a new twist on the birther argument.

74 Posted by: Reactionary at June 03, 2010 10:02 AM (xUM1Q)

Nail, head, hammer, direct hit.

75 They moved the library to a new building.  1/2 the area is computers and lounges.  They got rid of most of the collection by selling/giving away, rather than move it, so the shelves are 1/2 empty.  Of those that are there, most of the books are new-age libtard crap and Twilight.  You can use the computers to call in just about any book you can think of from the regional depository, but it takes a week or so to get to you.  This does you no good when you're doing a school research assignment, or if you're just after something to read.

City libraries have been a model of poor planning and inefficiency. In philly we have 54 libraries with extremely limited hours and selection.

Imagine if there were only 5 libraries, they would still be accesseible for everyone via public transit, and they would actually have the money for things people want to read/use.

Right now, I can thing of two libraries, within about 10 blocks of each other, that are both only opened two or three days a week, but have nothing of value,stay a few computers with internet access.

76 damn sock

77

It is not just the boomers Monty.  No segment of the U.S.'s population saves enough for retirement (on average).  From what I have seen the current load of young people save even less.

I don't know about that. A lot of people my age save pretty well, but then again it may just be the people I know and not indicative of all people my age.

78 I'm not so concerned with how the Boomers have acted, as much as concerned about how they will act going forwards. They will vote in large numbers as they get older - and demand resources from a smaller, working population. Something has to give.

79 if i am not mistaken it wasn't until the baby boomer generation that the government began raiding the Social Security funds and leaving IOUs.

No it wasn't. That was LBJ (greatest generation) who did that. What happened after that was three of the largest tax increases in history levied on the Boomer generation in SS payments in order to pay for the hump they were going to make in the SS expenses when they retired.

But it was not to be, the greatest generation congress spent every damn nickle of those tax increases and then some.

80

I'm not so concerned with how the Boomers have acted, as much as concerned about how they will act going forwards. They will vote in large numbers as they get older - and demand resources from a smaller, working population. Something has to give.

I don't know. I remain hopeful they get more conservative with age. Older people tend to.

What was it churchill said. Anyone under 30 who isn't liberal has no heart, anyone over 30 who isn't conservative has no mind.

 

I am also hopeful that the hippy-type boomers pass earlier on account of all that drug use and unproctected dirty hippy sex.

81 Vic: I have to throw the BS flag on that one Alex. Have to agree on this one. Not getting my Social Security yet, but I do have a feeling of entitlement to it. After all I paid for it and it was promised by a government that I trusted. Social Security has always been presented as saving for your own retirement (Even though we allowed the god da#m politicians to spend it instead of putting it into a lock box). Medicare, I would not care if it is gone forever. It was never promised as saving for our own future, but as charity toward old people that need and can't afford it. So if it becomes unsustainable, then I will understand. If SS becomes unsustainable (which I don't doubt) then there will be whole shitloads of unhappy people. Is it too late to take it out on the old politicians that spent that money on 'social' programs. Yes, it is. They broke no laws and there cannot be a legal way of retribution that I am aware of. Should those old politicians get a ride on a rail, or some tar and feathers from an angry mob? Maybe. Most of the population went to sleep and were told don't worry ... and they didn't. Does that mean that they don't have a right at this time to be angry that they were sold a bill of goods, and were not properly represented? And a tar and feathers of everyone that told George W Bush that Social Security was not broken or in need of a fix would be a great thing for the country, and a lesson for future politicians. Of course that means that most of the Democrats running the government now would be punished, so I am for it.

82 Most of what you hear is pure BS myth created by the MFM. It's not a myth, Vic! The money is not there. Medicare/medicaid spending trend-lines are even worse than SS, and the prospects for funding are even dimmer yet. The ACA will only exacerbate the problem. It's not a question of whether Boomers are bad/spendthrift people, Vic. You can't condemn a whole demographic. But the generation of 1945-1960 is huge, and the demographic facts are what they are: that generation spent far more than it earned, carried far more debt later in life, and saved less of their income than any generation in US history. They passed entitlement programs for themselves (Johnson's Great Society and the follow-on efforts during the Carter years) that they failed to fund properly. The main beef I have with a certain segment of Boomers (though by no means all) is the aura of entitlement: the "I earned it, therefore I must have it!" kind of thinking. Boomers didn't earn their benefits by any rational measure -- in fact, they actually ran up huge debts that future generations are going to have to either pay or default upon. They didn't do so maliciously, but that doesn't change the fact that it is unconscionable to expect the younger generations to pay for the unrealistic retirement-planning of their parents.

83 Socialism has failed, the money has run out, now go to work.

Maybe others can learn from Europe's mistakes ... After we rid ourselves of the Obama-Regime.

84

Medicare, I would not care if it is gone forever. It was never promised as saving for our own future, but as charity toward old people that need and can't afford it

i thought medicaid was the charity for the less wealthy and medicare was the guarantee to pay for old peoples healthcare.

We will never get rid of Medicare. Old people vote.

Look at the Tea Party and Republicans, even they aren't touching that subject. One of the main issues that the Tea Party and Republicans used against Obamacare was that it was taking 500 billion from medicare.  So they were essentially trying to defend an entitlement for old people against pilfering it for and entitlement for young people.

Old people vote.  Medicare is here to stay, as much as it pains me.

85 Something has to give.

SS payouts will ultimately be means tested.  Congress will be compelled to do that, and it will fly because soak the rich populism always flies. 

They'll ease into it and tighten the screws based on public reaction.

86

They didn't do so maliciously, but that doesn't

yes. I believe I was paved that way..

87 if i am not mistaken it wasn't until the baby boomer generation that the government began raiding the Social Security funds and leaving IOUs. It was the 1977 and 1983 amendments to SS that allowed the trust-fund to be raided for other government programs that doomed it (or at least caused it to fail faster than it might have otherwise).

88 SS payouts will ultimately be means tested.  Congress will be compelled to do that, and it will fly because soak the rich populism always flies. 

They'll ease into it and tighten the screws based on public reaction.

Alternatively, you could start liking the taste of Soylent Green

89

Monty,

Not to suck up, but I have to say I am happy Ace gave you the reigns to write here. It used to be PA was the only one who used to talk about economic issues in some depth.  I am glad we have a second person who does that.

These are going to be the major issues of our time and need to be talked about.

I think the social culture war will be on the periphery in American politics for some time and fiscal, monetary, debt and monetary issues will move to the forfront.

With Gloablization we can't just "come out" of a recession because we are America and the rest of the world is backwards. They are catching up, and the only way we can become a strong nation again is through innovations, smart fiscal and monetary polcies, and sustainable government spending.

I do think times are changing. Instead of Social Con versus Social Liberal, It will be Entrepeneur vs. Government employee.

90

forefront not forfront.

i don't proof read. that should be obvious at this point

91
It was the 1977 and 1983 amendments to SS that allowed the trust-fund to be raided for other government programs that doomed it (or at least caused it to fail faster than it might have otherwise).

Yeah, that was the "Dumb and Dumber" moment. Where Harry and Lloyd opened the briefcase and realized there was a ton of cash in it they could raid and pay it back by writing a bunch of IOUs.

Seriously, if you haven't watched that movie recently, I recommend doing it and considering it through the lens of an allegory of SS and Medicaid..

92 I don't know. I remain hopeful they get more conservative with age. Older people tend to. I wouldn't count on that. As Jimmy Carter demonstrates anew every time he opens his cake-hole, there's no fool like an old fool. (Helen Tomas, the Crypt Keeper's concubine, is another example.)

93

I don't know. I remain hopeful they get more conservative with age. Older people tend to.

I wouldn't count on that. As Jimmy Carter demonstrates anew every time he opens his cake-hole, there's no fool like an old fool. (Helen Tomas, the Crypt Keeper's concubine, is another example.)

I am hoping the majority do. clearly some people never change.

 

 

94 Help us, Zombie Reagan. You're our only hope.

95

A lot of people my age save pretty well, but then again it may just be the people I know and not indicative of all people my age.

Monty et al are speaking about people in aggregate terms, and their claims are accurate.

Remember the Bush tax refund back in '01? The government hoped that this money would be spent to stimulate consumption. Instead, people saved it. When this happened, Americans' savings spiked to about 4%. Our aggregate savings rate is usually less than that, often below 0%.

The low end of conventional wisdom says people ought to save at least 10% of what they make. To say that people (at large) aren't saving enough for their own late-in-life needs is an understatement.

96 (Helen Tomas, the Crypt Keeper's concubine, is another example.)

To be fair, she looks pretty good for being around since the Trojan War. (That was the face that launched a thousand ships people)

97 Via Reason magazine, here's another story of public-sector malfeasance that'll make your blood boil. It's going to come to bloodshed, sooner or later. This kind of thievery from the public coffers cannot continue.

98 Look, it's not the boomers that didn't put the SS funds into that lock box, or into a solid investment so that it is there to fund those that paid into it. It was the Liberal Politicians!! Not the boomers. Do not fall into the MFM trap of making those equivalent. Damn liberal politicians told us we could afford the great society and the welfare state instead of saving that money. Did the boomers let them? probably. Liberal politicians are the enemy, not a generation of people. And the reason you are being told differently now, is that the MFM would rather you are mad at old people than politicians that continue to lie to you. If you got mad at liberal politicians, you would want someone to make different decisions so that the damage is stopped.

99 It's not a myth, Vic! The money is not there. Medicare/medicaid spending trend-lines are even worse than SS, and the prospects for funding are even dimmer yet. The ACA will only exacerbate the problem.

I was talking about all the crap you hear about boomers, not the viability of SS/Medicare.

But the generation of 1945-1960 is huge, and the demographic facts are what they are: that generation spent far more than it earned

So is has the generation after them and before them. Our national debt didn't reach these catastrophic proportions overnight. We have been going down this road since the late 1800s when the progressives gained power in BOTH Parties.

They passed entitlement programs for themselves (Johnson's Great Society and the follow-on efforts during the Carter years) that they failed to fund properly.

Monty, who was in congress when those programs were passed. Hell, I was damn 14 years old when that shit passed! It was the so-called greatest generation that passed those programs and spent the country into debt peonage.

This time Monty your arguments have no logic and are based on false data and assumptions.
 

100 Nor, in demographic terms, did they have enough children to make up for the decrease in per-capita GDP that will occur when they leave the workforce...
 
Most people are [or seem to be] not aware of this, but the number of Caucasians in this country is in free-fall, with no sign that we have hit bottom yet [see Table 9]:
 
2008, Caucasian, aged 45-49 years: 15.964 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 40-44 years: 14.085 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 35-39 years: 12.981 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 30-34 years: 11.456 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 25-29 years: 12.740 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 20-24 years: 12.949 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 15-19 years: 12.903 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 10-14 years: 11.660 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 05-09 years: 11.222 million
2008, Caucasian, aged 00-04 years: 11.065 million
 
That's a collapse of about 30% [and increasing] in the number of American Caucasians.
 
If you are interested in the history of this stuff, the American Caucasian Total Fertility Rate [TFR] plunged into the abyss in the years 1970-1976, from where it has been struggling to rebound ever since:
 
1970: 2.385
1971: 2.161
1972: 1.907
1973: 1.783
1974: 1.749
1975: 1.686
1976: 1.652
 
As of 2006, the American Caucasian TFR had inched its way back up to 1.86.
 
That breaks down as roughly a 1.47 TFR for Blue State DEMs and a 2.08 TFR for Red State GOPers.
 
Most demographers believe that you need a TFR of about 2.10 to maintain a stable population [neither declining nor increasing in size].
 
.

101 To say that people (at large) aren't saving enough for their own late-in-life needs is an understatement. And it's not just us by any means. The entire Western world has the same frigging problem. Which is a large reason why we're in the financial mess we're in. We've been paying off one credit card by borrowing on another for decades now, and the bills are crushing us.

102 PA, means testing alone won't fix it. I think they need to up the retirement age, have a five year ramp in for payments, and as a last resort change the distribution model from cash to a system like WIC - core commodities at discounts, luxuries and cash at a penalty.

103 . Japan is probably the premier example of this problem -- watch what happens to them in the coming decade, because we're going to have the same problems a bit further down the line.

Posted by: Monty at June 03, 2010 09:59 AM (4Pleu)

I am not sure where you get your information Monty but you may want to go back a look at it again. To start with the boomers put more kids through college than any other generation. You claim that alot of them didn't plan for their retirement only hold water if you believe that the government should default on the SSN contract it made with the boomers 45 years ago. If you take the average amount boomers and their employers have contributed to SSN and instead would have had them invest that money in US Treasuries the average boomer would have over $1.2 Million in savings from that alone. Most boomers I know have adequet savings and equity in their home even counting the recent bubble burst which eventually will be over

I have to laugh with you say spend thrift boomers. This coming from a generation that pays on average $2,000 a year to stay wired up and connected with your friends and thinks nothing of spending $500 for a cell phone.

104

If they are serious bout this EU, they should vote them out if they do not get austerity measures in place within a year.  That would rock their worlds. 

 

We could do the same with California. 

105 It was the 1977 and 1983 amendments to SS that allowed the trust-fund to be raided for other government programs that doomed it (or at least caused it to fail faster than it might have otherwise).

No Monty, LBJ started including SS funds in the general budget long before then.  That is when it started getting raided so to speak. Actually it had been being spent all along since its inception but it wasn't included in the general budget. 

106 Via Reason magazine, here's another story of public-sector malfeasance that'll make your blood boil.

It's going to come to bloodshed, sooner or later. This kind of thievery from the public coffers cannot continue.

Another great example of Philly malfeasance is the DROP program. Basically, we have city-council members who "retire" right before the end of a legislative session, but since they were reelected, once the new sessions begins they start working again, collecting both their normal paycheck, as well as their "retirement" paycheck.

And guess who are the one's with the power to get rid of said benefit? You got it,  City Council. So show of hands of people who think that will happen.

107

I don't know. I remain hopeful they get more conservative with age. Older people tend to.

They used to be that way -- but this will be less likely as older people as a group join the dependent classes. Older people nowadays combined Old World stubbornness with Great Depression experiences, and they came to rely on themselves without going into debt.

That generation is giving way to an aging generation who are very left-leaning if they have means or who hold high expectations of the government if they don't.

108 I have to throw the BS flag on that one Alex. I am one of those much maligned "boomers" and I paid the max SS every year since I got out of the Navy. Where did all of my money go?

See, that's why I specifically said that I was painting with a broad brush.  Of course there are a ton of Boomers who did no such thing and who are getting screwed even worse than Gen X, Y, etc. 

But my point still holds for the larger picture.  The Boomer generation is enormous.  This puts a strain on the system that is not being addressed because politicians are trying to kick the can down the road.  When the bill comes due, which it must, then the people who are going to be paying for it are Gen X and younger.  That's when the social problems come into play.  Again, broadly, the Boomers are the ones who got divorced, who shuffled the kids around, who were more concerned for today then tomorrow, etc.  You are asking kids to live up to the societal contract their parents rejected.  That's going to be a problem. 

Does this apply in each and every case?  No.  But it applies in more than it doesn't which is why this is going to be such an issue.

109 This time Monty your arguments have no logic and are based on false data and assumptions. Vic, I'm not making this shit up. Look at the charts on this page and tell me in what year they start to skyrocket higher. (Hint: it's right around 1980, or the year when Boomers begin to hit their prime earning years.) I'm sorry if it seems like I'm attacking the Boomers as people, but the simple fact is that the broad demographic of people born from 1945-1960 were, by any reasonable measure, the most amazingly spendthrift and savings-poor generation our nation has ever produced. This isn't necessarily their fault; they assumed that the path of American wealth and influence would increase asymptotically. It turns out that they bet wrong. There are many good, upstanding, and stoutly conservative Boomers. I'm not even hinting otherwise. I'm speaking only of the demographic aggregate, not of individuals. My point is just that this demographic is going to have a very rude awakening in a few years when the younger generations simply refuse to pay the excessive bill their elders ran up.

110 I'll have to say one thing. The MFM is very damn good at getting conservatives to start in-fighting amongst themselves.

111

I just finished reading The Lords of the Sea, a history of the Athenean navy, and how it enabled Athens to dominate Greece and the Aegean, and formed the cornerstone of democracy at home, in a Starship Troopers kinda way.

Great mix of  (400 BC-era) conservative philosophy, Greek history and politics, naval battles, and the evolution of warship design.

Some observations:

1. They don't make Greeks like they used to.

2. The penalties for military or even just political failure in those times was very high, often fatally so, and the people took great delight in periodically "watering" the tree of democracy with the blood of last year's heroes.  In that world, I would give our Dear Reader about 4 weeks in office to live, max.

3. Triremes are teh roxxor!!!11!!

112 Hey, as far as TFR - I've done my part. How about the rest of you, saddle up.

113 PA, means testing alone won't fix it. I think they need to up the retirement age

That I've taken as a given for the last 20 years.  I fully expect it to be 70+ by the time I get there. 

114

That generation is giving way to an aging generation who are very left-leaning if they have means or who hold high expectations of the government if they don't.

Posted by: FireHorse at June 03, 2010 10:33 AM (cQyWA)

Heh, I don't understand where you get that. I was old enough to vote in 1970 since then we have had 26 years of republican presidents and 13.5 years of democrats in the oval office. The last election was decided by voters under 40 who voted overwhelmingly for I WON. The Congress has leaned a bit more left the reason being that most of the congressman come from urban areas which tend to be younger and more devirse.

115 Vic, I'm not making this shit up. Look at the charts on this page and tell me in what year they start to skyrocket higher. (Hint: it's right around 1980, or the year when Boomers begin to hit their prime earning years.)

Could that be because in addition to all the spending enacted by the "greatest generation" we had all that accumulated debt having to be paid for as well?

The point I keep making and the point you keep missing is the boomers did not pass all these socialistic laws that put all that debt in place.

And those charts do not show savings rates for retirement.

As for people in your age who save pretty good for retirement, yes you may know people who did that. But I also saved good for retirement as evidence by the fact that I am retired now and not drawing a dime of SS.

116 97 (Helen Tomas, the Crypt Keeper's concubine, is another example.) To be fair, she looks pretty good for being around since the Trojan War. (That was the face that launched a thousand ships people) ------------- Stella?

117 That I've taken as a given for the last 20 years.  I fully expect it to be 70+ by the time I get there.

They have already raised it once and yes, I fully expect it to be raised again.

What I would like to see happen is a new be passed that takes money from every congress critter or that heirs who have voted yes for a budget that spent the SS money until they are all bankrupt and then go for other funding.

118 The Congress has leaned a bit more left the reason being that most of the congressman come from urban areas which tend to be younger and more devirse. and back to the implementation of the 1964 CRA and one man/one vote congressional districts which substantially shifted power from the rural base to the urban cores.

119 Stella?

Quoi?

120 I love the generational quibbling that happens whenever social security comes up.

Here's the thing; It wasn't the Greatest Generation that gave us SS.  It was the generation before them.  That's how it works.  The power-player politicians in any given time are from at least the previous generation (in the case of some, like Byrd, they're from the friggin civil war generation...).  They may respond a bit to the events of the times, but they're basically stuck in the 'wave' of what was popular with the kiddies when they were kiddies.  This shows up great with people like FDR.  Socialism was a huge thing with the younger and lower class in the late 1800's/early 1900's when he was growing and rising as a politician because of the, honestly real, bad conditions of early industrialization.  So his answer when the Depression hit was as much socialism as he could get.  This then impacted the ideals of everyone afterwards (that whole, "ah, SS, it's a retirement fund!" line of thinking mentioned earlier).

And so on; until now, our power player pols are the baby boomers.  Since they grew up with that thinking, anything new is unfathomable to them and they see the only correct response to a crisis is socialism...because that's what Europe did, and that's what their grandpappies did.

The problem is, it didn't so much fix the problems that existed, as mitigate them a bit at huge expense that is deferred down the line.  I think what we're finally seeing here is that they (in this case, baby boomer and very early gen x pols) kicked the debt ball down the line, and into the side of a thousand foot sheer rock face.  But they only know "kick the ball a bit more" so they keep kicking that ball, and it's starting to tear apart at the seams for it.

121

Via Reason magazine, here's another story of public-sector malfeasance that'll make your blood boil.

It's going to come to bloodshed, sooner or later. This kind of thievery from the public coffers cannot continue.

Another great example of Philly malfeasance is the DROP program. Basically, we have city-council members who "retire" right before the end of a legislative session, but since they were reelected, once the new sessions begins they start working again, collecting both their normal paycheck, as well as their "retirement" paycheck.

And guess who are the one's with the power to get rid of said benefit? You got it,  City Council. So show of hands of people who think that will happen.

what kills me is the public union has this deal where your pension is based on the amount of money you earned in your last year. So firemen, policemen, etc will work tons and tons of overtime in their final year, sometimes making more than 20% or more of their actual base salary and then get a fat pension. I read somewhere that states are trying to undo that and not count overtime in the formula they use to calculate pensions.

Good luck.

122 We give you Western Civilization, and this is how you repay us?  Fuck you.  Fuck you until your asshole is purple donkey asshole.

123 The point I keep making and the point you keep missing is the boomers did not pass all these socialistic laws that put all that debt in place.

Vic, we're talking completely past each other.  No, the Boomers did not pass those laws.  But the Boomers are the ones who will be drawing the funds and it is reasonable to presume that the Boomers will be fighting tooth and nail to protect those entitlements.  In return, Gen X and younger will be fighting like hell to not be caught under what will have to be a crushing tax burden to meet those obligations.  That will create a cultural war.  Your point that the Boomers didn't pass the laws is well taken.  But that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about what is going to be, not what was.  And, yes, I do blame a substantial portion of the Boomers for not being able to see the handwriting on the wall and not preparing for the future.  Again, we're taking aggregates here, not each and every single person.  You didn't do that.  Fantastic!  That's great!  That doesn't vitiate my point.

124 Here's the thing; It wasn't the Greatest Generation that gave us SS.  It was the generation before them.

I don't see how you can say that since SS was from FDR and he was p[art of that "greatest generation".

125 We give you Western Civilization, and this is how you repay us?  Fuck you.  Fuck you until your asshole is purple donkey asshole.

I guess you'd like that since you did give us state sanctioned man-boy love as well.

126

"Cristos then sets fire to the payroll department."

^{They took my stapler.}

127 I blame the boomer in government now for pretending like the SS problem hasn't existed for the last twenty years.

128

http://tinyurl.com/3ywlkcv

 

I what they need is tough love.  Little chance for that. 

129 But the Boomers are the ones who will be drawing the funds and it is reasonable to presume that the Boomers will be fighting tooth and nail to protect those entitlements

Why not since they paid for it (or most of them did).  The problem isn't really with the boomers or any other age group with low savings rates.

The problem with SS is that there are too many people who expect to draw it who pay little or NOTHING into it.

130 I think we need to tie the SS retirement age to the average lifespan; so that as medical care gets better - the age increases. (Fix #1) The means test it, screw the rich (Fix #2) I think we need "public" clinics, doctors, and hospitals that service medicare/medicaid and trauma - private insurance goes to private facilities, if substandard facilities are good enough for veterans, they are good enough for the rest of us (Fix #3); politically we need a vigorous revitalization of Federalism and the end of Witholding. If people have to write the checks, the tax structure will fix itself.

131 I blame the boomer in government now for pretending like the SS problem hasn't existed for the last twenty years.

It is the Dems who are doing that. That has been my point all along. This boomer thing is a false flag operation by the MFM to blame someone other than their boys in the communist party USA.

132
It is the Dems who are doing that. That has been my point all along.

True, it's mostly been the dims, espeically recently. But the GOPers in power, up until Bush II, remained awfully silent on it. No politician wanted to piss off the elderly voter.

133 Greeks on strike? When I lived there, we would say, "How can you tell?" Greeks strike over everything. And throw Molotov cocktails. I would not take the "social unrest" there as a sign. I would take the rest of the "West" throwing barrels of cash at them as a sign though. We are unserious, about everything.

134 Why not since they paid for it (or most of them did).  The problem isn't really with the boomers or any other age group with low savings rates.

Posted by: Vic at June 03, 2010 10:53 AM (6taRI)

Nobody pays for the SS they get.  Unless they die young.  Everybody else gets out what they paid in, plus a whole lot more.  That's the problem.  Limit the payments to what the payee paid in, and there's no problem.

135 But mostly, I blame you, Vic. This can all be traced back to you.

136 I don't see how you can say that since SS was from FDR and he was p[art of that "greatest generation".

I would not put FDR in the greatest generation since they were the 18-25 yr olds that made up the bulk of the fighting force in WWII and FDR was 58 when the war started.

137 And, yes, I do blame a substantial portion of the Boomers for not being able to see the handwriting on the wall and not preparing for the future.  Again, we're taking aggregates here, not each and every single person.  You didn't do that.  Fantastic!  That's great!  That doesn't vitiate my point.

Posted by: alexthechick at June 03, 2010 10:49 AM (8WZWv)

You're wrong about that Alex, SSN was fixed in the 1980's and the fix did exactly what it was supposed to. Even now if you count the $3 Trillion that  that was paid into SSN but robbed by the politicians SSN lasts until 2047 when most of us boomers will be gone. The current generations are going to have to fix it again to make it last past that date.

Medicare is the main problem and that is insolvent because medical costs have inflated more than anyone even came close to thinking they would. Obama who was voted in by the younger generation just made the problme worse by stealing $500 billion from medicare to pay for insurance for the younger generation.

138 I would not put FDR in the greatest generation since they were the 18-25 yr olds that made up the bulk of the fighting force in WWII and FDR was 58 when the war started.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at June 03, 2010 10:59 AM (tf9Ne)

Yeah FDR was part of the movers and shakers of the world who were all smitten with the perfection that was collectivism and gummint planning.  The Fascist Generation.

139 Obama who was voted in by the younger generation just made the problme worse by stealing $500 billion from medicare to pay for insurance for the younger generation.

Posted by: robtr at June 03, 2010 11:02 AM (fwSHf)

First he asked for Change, and when that didn't work, he went around robbing old people.  Next: big pimpin'.

140 Speaking of unions, over at Hot Air you have your daily Chris Christie awesomeness, where he excoriates the teachers unions. http://tinyurl.com/35arjh7

141 Vic, Greatest generation is the generation that was 18-25 during WWII.  FDR was in his 50's.

If you look at the generational charts, FDR was born in 1882, which means he's from the Reconstruction/Missionary Awakening generation.

142 SS was intended to keep you fed, clothed and warm, in a house that was already paid for.

143 Speaking of unions, over at Hot Air you have your daily Chris Christie awesomeness, where he excoriates the teachers unions. http://tinyurl.com/35arjh7

Posted by: taylork at June 03, 2010 11:05 AM (0Hn5w)

I'd like to add that this kid of rhetoric is over the top and uncalled for, and I think the Governor should apologize. 

144 Antiquities and great works of art for sale - get 'em right here!

145 Monty, I'll see your Philadelphia story and raise you a mayor convicted of perjury and embezzlement who still gets to keep her $83K per year pension, which she started receiving the day she was forced out.  Baltimore wins!

http://tinyurl.com/2afevfy

146 Now you round-eyes know which is the true superior civilization.

147 All ur transit r belong to us!

148 The solution for Greece is simple - kick them out of the Euro. Let the drachma devalue and tourism will boom. (Great weather, great coastline, history, good food, plenty of natashas, AND cheap currency/prices = hordes of European tourists.)

149 Monty, I'll see your Philadelphia story and raise you a mayor convicted of perjury and embezzlement who still gets to keep her $83K per year pension, which she started receiving the day she was forced out.  Baltimore wins!

http://tinyurl.com/2afevfy

Posted by: Hedgehog at June 03, 2010 11:15 AM (oQIfB)

Talked to a guy from Baltimore about that.  She was stealing $10 and $15 dollar gift cards destined for poor chirren.  And her defense was "It was that much money."

150 And her defense was "It was that much money."

Posted by: FUBAR at June 03, 2010 11:17 AM (J5Srq)

Wasn't.  It wasn't that much money.

151

My parents were of the "greatest generation" -- hated SS (never got what they were forced, their words -- forced, to put into it) and both thought FDR was a fellow traveller with Joe and you know who.

They also hated Medicare and having to pay into that as well.

 

152

My parents were of the "greatest generation" -- hated SS (never got what they were forced, their words -- forced, to put into it) and both thought FDR was a fellow traveller with Joe and you know who.

They also hated Medicare and having to pay into that as well.

Don't worry, it's Vic's fault and nobody elses.

153 My comment got spammed. I've never felt so happy before.

154 Don't worry, it's Vic's fault and nobody elses.

Yeah, I just saw a commercial on Fox with the CEO of BP apologizing for the oil spill. I guess I should apologize too for baby boomers nationwide.

Ya'll keep on taking that MFM's advice about the boomers, while you're at it let them choose your next presidential candidate as well. Remember only xx RINO can beat Obama in the next election. Trust us, all out polls show that.

155 I also blame the boomers for not having enough kids. If they had 5 kids a couple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Oh, and you know who else is a baby boomer? Barack Obama, just saying...

156 Oh, and you know who else is a baby boomer? Barack Obama, just saying...

Posted by: taylork at June 03, 2010 11:29 AM (0Hn5w)

Nope he missed the cut off by 1 year. You own him, get used to it.

157 Nope he missed the cut off by 1 year. You own him, get used to it.

I'll never know w/o an actual birth certificate  
Yeah, I just went there.

158 So, what happens when these "strikes" don't work? Do they up the ante and start rioting? And what happens when the riots don't produce the desired result?

Revolution.

/what are the gun regulations in Greece? anyone know?

159 158 He was born in 1965?

160 Maybe here's an idea ... instead of arguing whose fault it is, why not talk about how to fix it ...

1)eliminate SS by returning everyone's money
2)sunset SS by preventing any new enrollees
3)raise taxes to cover the difference
4)raise retirement ages
5)eliminate non-retirement payouts
6)eliminate the Fed SS and move everyone to a state run retirement system (more local control)
7)euthanasia for everyone over 90
summon the meteors
9)Move all enrollees between 50 and 60 to an IRA/401K (repeat every 10 years)
10)Move to Greece and go on strike
11)Eliminate income tax on interest to encourage savings
12)Encourage smoking ... we need the cigarette taxes
13)Special taxes on all retired political figures and public employees ...

161 I like the word "boned" for a lot purposes, but it's not strictly defined in any economic sense. So what in hell is expected to happen with Greece? What's happened so far is the Greek national government was about to default on money it owed to private creditors: banks, some of them in the U.S. The Merchant Banks Guild -- don't think that's the exact name, but there's no doubt it's a guild with a membership full of merchant banks -- went to the closest government entity to a Fed in Europe, the various agencies of the European Union, including the other governments, and used its usual arguments to 'urge' the EU to "save Greece" -- meaning save the euro, REALLY meaning pay us or we can't, or won't, or both, lend any more money or do any more bank-type business in Greece, then Portugal and Spain, soon Italy, and eventually multi-dependent business communities won't have credit, and you'll all starve and DIE! It's not that Greece in particular will get boned; the whole frickin' financial system will get boned. Already Iceland refused to pay the MBG any more than flash frozen fiske fillets. Ireland is offering lucky shamrocks. Spain's only go paella and bull testicles. Portugal's got coastline. Italy's got maybe two virgins Berlusconi hasn't screwed yet. France has got cream sauces and unfiltered smokes. Eventually the stresses on the financial system have to go to where the money is, and that's Germany. And Germany is ASKING Greece to BONE ITSELF.

162 Get the butter.

163 Reactionary, and the whole God is Dead thing ...

Posted by: Jean at June 03, 2010 10:05 AM (JaO+v)

Just so we're clear, I was lamenting the rise of that kind of thinking, not praising it.  You may note that it was included in a brief list of calamities.  I'm not the replacement Christoph.

164 To those of you blaming things on the Baby Boomers, have you guys met their children... Talk about a bunch of vapid, entitled brats.  I'm at the edge of Gen X/ Millenials (I graduated from HS in 2000) and can tell you that some of the teens today are getting away with things that I would never have dreamed of doing at their age.  I'm currently getting my MBA and the entitlement and antics among the current undergrads/ recent grads at my school is quite shocking.

165 Spain's only go paella and bull testicles. Portugal's got coastline. Italy's got maybe two virgins Berlusconi hasn't screwed yet. France has got cream sauces and unfiltered smokes.

Posted by: Saul Kruegerand at June 03, 2010 11:54 AM (Npnnx)

Actually, with the exception of the bull testes, that short list seems like a fair payment arrangement.  I can envision sitting on Portugese beach front property, smoking unfiltered cigs and eating paella, to be followed up by dessert with some fine French cream sauce and those two Italian virgins.

 

166 Reactionary, Jean is for Jean Parisot de la Valette, I don't reactionary even does justice to my views. I was reinforcing your political and economic position with the intellectual and moral failures that accompanied the decline.

167

I'm at the edge of Gen X/ Millenials (I graduated from HS in 2000) and can tell you that some of the teens today are getting away with things that I would never have dreamed of doing at their age. I'm currently getting my MBA and the entitlement and antics among the current undergrads/ recent grads at my school is quite shocking.

There's been some behavorial research recently which is finding that all the "self esteem" BS in the schools has fueled that conflagration.

 

168

I'm at the edge of Gen X/ Millenials (I graduated from HS in 2000) and can tell you that some of the teens today are getting away with things that I would never have dreamed of doing at their age. I'm currently getting my MBA and the entitlement and antics among the current undergrads/ recent grads at my school is quite shocking.

There's been some behavorial research recently which is finding that all the "self esteem" BS in the schools has fueled that conflagration.

169 I'm currently getting my MBA and the entitlement and antics among the current undergrads/ recent grads at my school is quite shocking. On, I'm not absolving Americans of whatever generation from the blame-pool. Gen-Xers, Y-ers, and Millennials are just as much a bunch of spendthrift dickbags as their parents were. The issue is one of demographic size: Xers, as a demographic, are only about half as large as their Boomer parents' cohort. Boomers ran up a shitload of bills, and then didn't have enough kids to cover the GDP shortfall when they left the workplace and retired. In ten years, you're going to have about three workers for every retiree, instead of the ten or fifteen we had back in 1970 or so. Pretty soon every worker is going to have his very own rocker-jockey to support. At that point, Junior is going to say "fuck it" and just quit working altogether -- why live like an indentured servant for your entire life to make sure that Grandpa and Grandma can afford their retirement home in St. Pete's? If you want to keep civilization on a paying basis for everyone you have to invest in the young, not the old. (Or just scrap the whole notion of "retirement" altogether. Where is it written that you have the "right" to retire from working once you hit a certain age? If you don't want to work any more, save up enough money when you're young. Otherwise: you stay in harness until you keel over, buddy.)

170 1)eliminate SS by returning everyone's money

What money?

171 1)eliminate SS by returning everyone's money

What money?

I would accept the treasury notes that my money has purchased, and relinquish all other claims.

172

Where is it written that you have the "right" to retire from working once you hit a certain age?

It's presumed. All "rights" are. (Except for property rights. No such thing.)

173 Where is it written that you have the "right" to retire from working once you hit a certain age?

At most places when you hire on it is either implied or in writing. .

174 Ben @23:  My monthy mortgage property taxes almost double my mortgage. Its getting pretty close to the point where my monthly tax is equal to my monthly loan payment

WTF??!!  Our taxes are a bit less than a third of our mortgage pmt and we feel *ridiculously* overtaxed compared to the neighbors.  (Okay, house is just 3 years old, so...)  Where the hell do you live that the city/county parasites can justify taking that much in taxes??

175 168 Reactionary, Jean is for Jean Parisot de la Valette, I don't reactionary even does justice to my views. I was reinforcing your political and economic position with the intellectual and moral failures that accompanied the decline.

Posted by: Jean at June 03, 2010 12:23 PM (JaO+v)

Ahhh - thanks for the clarification (and reinforcement).  I misunderstood the intent. 

176 Vic, you're confusing contractual obligation arrived at through hiring negotiations (if even that...) with a basic right.

177 Mephitis @ 86:  Not getting my Social Security yet, but I do have a feeling of entitlement to it. After all I paid for it and it was promised by a government that I trusted.

"I do have a feeling of entitlement to it. After all I paid for it, and it was promised by a government that I trusted"???

I certainly understand that sentiment, but *dude*...you *trusted the government*??

Say, can I interest you in some beachfront property in Orlando?

I mean, dontcha' think all those poor widows and socialites who invested millions with Bernie Madoff said exactly the same thing?  And I'll bet you saw lots of other folks shaking their heads and muttering "I can't believe anyone would..." (etc)

The fact is that Social Security was a slick bill of goods, sold to a credulous and math-challenged public who *wanted* to believe FDR (and his Dem successors) would keep them snug and fed in their old age.  And certainly that's one hell of a beautiful picture.  But it was unsound from the outset, and then predictably got far worse over time as vote-buying politicians opened the SS money-chest wider and wider.

To top it off, when the Dems shot down Bush's tiny effort to actually let people (gasp!) *invest* some of their SS contributions in stocks, their main line of attack was that Bush and the GOP were "raiding the lockbox" that kept the SS system safe and sound!!  They actually ran with the total bullshit lie that all the SS money was in a "lockbox", so people didn't have to worry.

Lying bastards.  And the MFM, of course, let the Dem bastards get away with the lie.

178

To top it off, when the Dems shot down Bush's tiny effort to actually let people (gasp!) *invest* some of their SS contributions in stocks, their main line of attack was that Bush and the GOP were "raiding the lockbox" that kept the SS system safe and sound!!

Tell it, sf! And by people, you're excluding the oldest among us who wouldn't have been permitted to participate in this baby step.

But Chris Dodd didn't want that. And Chris Dodd didn't want meaningful financial reform when it might have done some good. And Chris Dodd got people to stay on at AIG to fix the mess that he caused, then Chris Dodd double-crossed them all.

179 Maybe Sir Paul McCartney can donate some of his billions to keep libraries open...Another foreign turd comes to our house and criticizes the electorate for our choice in leadership vis a vis Bush...Hey Paul, better worry about what the Poodle Tony Blair and the unelected Gordon Brown did to your country, the New Caliphate of Britainistan...

180 Renee Sharp, the California director from the Washington-based Environmental Functioning Group,cheap wholesale also explained she hoped the law would dissuade shoppers from acquiring relatively high radiation cell phones till their effect within the human entire body is totally understood. The advocacy group supplied reports and other counsel towards city's Department of the Surroundings as they produced the policy. "We're also hoping it's going to spur increased debate about whether the existing federal standards are sufficient or not," Sharp explained. "We certainly don't think that people usually are not likely to obtain cell phones because of radiation." Sector officials would not speculate about the effect to their small business, cheap cell phones but a lot of the nation's most popular cellular cell phones have fairly large SAR levels. That is because many of individuals well-liked mobile phones are smart cell phones, which have Wi-Fi and Bluetooth receivers, as well as simple cellular capability, that add to their total SAR rating, based on Walls. Under the law, greater chains may have to place SAR notices starting in February, though other retailers could have until 2012. While the supervisors have been largely unanimous, reaction outside of Town Hall and across the nation was mixed.

181 laptop batteries laptop batteries