1 I hope this issue burns Roe V. Wade to the ground.

2 I'm sympathetic, Ben, but it's difficult not to question the timing.

If the girl is right, Gosnell needs to get an extra jolt of Goodbye Juice. But if this is a Duke Rape or Tawana Brawley accusation, anyone who starts shouting about will look damn stupid.

Where has the accuser been? And why now?

Sometimes, skepticism is good. This is one of those times.

3 I don't know, but don't think so. His MO for forty years was to walk in at night with the women all already sedated by his staff.

4 I would pull the medical licenses for every doctor and nurse involved in referrals to this guy - failure to maintain an adequate standard of care.

5 The alleged patient told CBS 3 that she has recently contacted the District AttorneyÂ’s office who told her the statute of limitations on her case has expired.

I didn't know that murder had a statute of limitations.

6 nothing ever good comes from an abortion....not ever.....

7

There is no way to be certain this woman was a patient of Gosnell. Some may call into question why she only coming forward now.

But if she was accusing a Catholic priest then her statement would be accepted as true immediately? 

It's hard to remember all the different ways the rules apply now and to whom.

8

I'm sympathetic, Ben, but it's difficult not to question the timing.

If the girl is right, Gosnell needs to get an extra jolt of Goodbye Juice. But if this is a Duke Rape or Tawana Brawley accusation, anyone who starts shouting about will look damn stupid.

Where has the accuser been? And why now?

Sometimes, skepticism is good. This is one of those times.

 

I agree. However, let's be honest, how favorably does our court system look upon 15 year old poor black pregnant girls. Especially in the inner Philly area?

The courts there are swamped with murders, thefts, rapes, etc. they don't give a sh^t about girls like her.

To use a recent example. Look at Brett Favre. How many women do you think he sexually harrased that have yet to come forward. All it took was one women to come forward with proof, some publicity, and then other women began to come forward. I'm sure they didn't come forward because they were scared that the media would destroy them or ignore them.

9 But what bothers me is this shit happens all the time in the abortion industry.  THIS animal happened to get caught.    Let's cut to the chase- abortion is evil.  They KNOW it's evil, but as a matter of political expedience, they can't admit it. 

As Jefferson characterized Slavery:  "It's like holding a wolf by the ears: you don't much like it, but you dare not let go."

10 Off Topic Just so you know, Blades of Glory is on ABC. The very best of low brow, juvenile humor.

11 "Would they side with the doctor or some impoverished fifteen year old girl?" With the girl if she had gone to the police within a reasonable amount of time. However, what I don't understand, is how she entered the clinic. Did someone force her to the clinic? Granted, she has the right to change her mind at any time but these statements alone aren't convincing.

12 The poor are disposable, dispensible cannon fodder for the limousine libs.  Think they care?

13 I'm skeptical but the fact that she is coming out anonymous and not just clawing for attention put it on the believable side of my skepticism.

14 This guy, and the ENTIRE bureaucracy that failed to inspect his death chamber should be the victims of extreme late term abortions themselves.

15

This is a Good article, in case you missed it. 

 ^{http://tinyurl.com/4wdu8fa}

16 Gloria Steinem ... this blood is on your hands

17 10 Off Topic
Just so you know, Blades of Glory is on ABC. The very best of low brow, juvenile humor.

Posted by: nerdygirl at January 22, 2011 09:15 PM (S6eGf)

Or you can watch The Dark Knight on TNT.

18

I agree. However, let's be honest, how favorably does our court system look upon 15 year old poor black pregnant girls. Especially in the inner Philly area?

Posted by: Ben at January 22, 2011 09:14 PM (DKV43)

Right wing rhetoric had nothing to do with Loughner's shooting spree.

I agree but let's be honest....


LET be honest. I will eat my hat if this monster ever talked to one of his patients for more than 5 seconds let alone had anything to do with their prep. He doesn't seem like the bedside manner type. This was a cash business for this guy and business was VERY good. What's the point in forcing someone when 10 others are waiting?

This woman's very likely BS story has nothing at all to do with or say anything about how the court system treats 15 year black pregnant girls. In or out of Philly.

19 God Damn Obama ... this happened on his watch.
Worst Mother Fucking President EVAH

20 Off Topic
Just so you know, Blades of Glory is on ABC. The very best of low brow, juvenile humor.

Posted by: nerdygirl at January 22, 2011 09:15 PM (S6eGf)

Or you can watch The Dark Knight on TNT

I know i might ruffle some feathers, but having seen the movie several times now, including midnight the night it opened, i've come to the realization that it isn't a good movie.

The only bright spot is heath ledger's joker. The rest of the story doesn't make a ton of sense and is convoluted

21

But if she was accusing a Catholic priest then her statement would be accepted as true immediately? 

To the Left, truth is relative only in relation to who the accuser and the accused are.

22 There's a whole lot of bad stuff going on here... supervisory negligence, political protection, an MD who's acting more like a serial killer (keeping trophies?!), and the victims- both the mothers and their babies- didn't rate well enough for people to pursue it until now.

23

I'm skeptical but the fact that she is coming out anonymous and not just clawing for attention put it on the believable side of my skepticism.

yeah, there is no real money in it for her. And if she was an attention seeker, she would have come out publically.

 

24

There's a whole lot of bad stuff going on here... supervisory negligence, political protection, an MD who's acting more like a serial killer (keeping trophies?!), and the victims- both the mothers and their babies- didn't rate well enough for people to pursue it until now.

he's charged with 33 illegal abortions and 7-8 murders.

If convicted it would make him one of america's most prolific mass murderers, yet nary a peep from the MSM

25 This story just gets more sickening everyday.

26 he's charged with 33 illegal abortions and 7-8 murders.

We have our hands full with the violent ramifications of extreme right wing vitriol.  Can't someone else do this one?

27 The only way to stop what happened in Philidelphia is more gun control. We can start with high capacity magazines and work from there.

28 Seriously,killing unborn babies is just evil.Justify,rationalize any way you want.Satan loves abortion.

29 There is one story up at the NYT about it, but so far, nary a peep from the Big 3. Fox only put a story about it up this evening.

30

Or you can watch The Dark Knight on TNT.

Posted by: buzzion at January 22, 2011 09:20 PM (oVQFe)

or, Alien on IFC

31 The MFM is just like the Philidelphia DOH, no investigation, no reporting.

32 he's charged with 33 illegal abortions and 7-8 murders.

Interesting distinction, that.

33 i can't bear to read about this story. 

but just saw this and it was something I thought worth sharing:
"Judge John Roll Died A Hero"

34 32 he's charged with 33 illegal abortions and 7-8 murders.

Interesting distinction, that.

Posted by: nickless at January 22, 2011 09:35 PM (MMC8r)

not really seeing the difference here.

35

yeah, there is no real money in it for her. And if she was an attention seeker, she would have come out publically.

 

Posted by: Ben at January 22, 2011 09:25 PM (DKV43)

No real money? You don't think there are at least half a dozen ambulance chaser's out there right now preparing a class action lawsuit against the state for their lack of oversight on behalf of every woman that ever even passed by his building including his employees? It will big fat hush money checks all around and the bigger the story the fatter the check.

36 Hey Timbo!

How you feeling about the death penalty now?

37 With the girl if she had gone to the police within a reasonable amount of time. However, what I don't understand, is how she entered the clinic. Did someone force her to the clinic?

She was coerced (forced) by her grandmother. 

If this is the same woman I read about earlier, she entered with her guardian but thought/assumed the medical people would allow her to reject the abortion once she was alone with them in the privacy of the exam room. 

I completely understand her not going to police in that situation.  She'd have been out on the street if she had said anything. 

38 I was amazed to see an AP story on this printed in today's (very liberal) Des Moines Register. Maybe the story is slowly dribbling into the MFM.

39 Ben, did you read the report of the grand jury? This guy killed hundreds of babies. He's only charged with a few, because he destroyed so much evidence. Also, this young woman's claim is a wild stretch. It's completely incongruous with both the testimony of the witnesses to the grand jury and his business model of many years.

40 What's the point in forcing someone when 10 others are waiting?

This was not just a cash business for this guy. I think it's pretty damned clear that he enjoyed his work. If he didn't, he could not have done it day in and day out, year after year. It takes a certain type of evil to bring forth a fully developed child and then cut his spinal cord, not with a scalpel, but with scissors.

What the hell makes you think that he would make any sort of rational distinction between that vein of violence and what this woman has reported?

41

Or you can watch The Dark Knight on TNT.

Posted by: buzzion at January 22, 2011 09:20 PM (oVQFe)

or, Alien on IFC

Or Primeval on BBCA

42 How you feeling about the death penalty now?

Posted by: jmflynny at January 22, 2011 09:36 PM (piMMO)

Nope.. not for it.

The special place reserved for this guy in hell is enough for me.

43 It's disgusting enough without this story clouding the waters.I truly believe the vast majority of Americans,including liberal women,would want abortion ended if they had their faces rubbed in how ugly it is.The left wing establishment shields them from the truth that would horrify any normal human with a concience.

44 40 You think Tiller didn't "enjoy" the work?What normal human could do that?

45 Another thing to bear in mind in terms of punishment for this guy is that, if they put him in general population, he's got a very short life expectancy. There is a hierarchy in prison, and the guys who hurt kids are on the low side of the totem pole.

46 42 Yeah but I like speeding up their arrival in hell.Nice to know they will get there but I want them there fast.

47

Ben, did you read the report of the grand jury? This guy killed hundreds of babies. He's only charged with a few, because he destroyed so much evidence. Also, this young woman's claim is a wild stretch. It's completely incongruous with both the testimony of the witnesses to the grand jury and his business model of many years.

I did, and you're right. This man is potentially the greatest mass murder in American history. And unlike some, Timothy McVeigh or even the 9/11 hijackers, he did it with his own bare hands.

I simple pointed out the 7-8 murders and 33 illegal abortions because that is all he is charged with at the moment, i believe. And the only reason I make a distinction between the two is to be accurate in terms of charges. I could type 40 murders, but that isn't how he's being charged

I don't want to break Goodwin's law, but I can't think of an example of a doctor killing so many people since WW2, either with the Germans at the camps or the Japanese at Unit 731.

This is a f^cking horror story of epic proportions.

48 When Tiller was gunned down in the doorway of his church ( I still can't figure out what kind of church would let him darken their door) I cheered. I made my wife and I a cocktail, we did a toast and prayed for the man that did it. Apparently the man had fire arm training because he did not have to shoot 20 people to get it done. When it comes to the house of horrors created by this piece of shit? He should die by a court ordered execution. He should be joined by all of those that aided him or profited in his actions. There is however a bright side. This piece of shit has done more for the pro life movement that anyone in the past twenty years.

49 You think Tiller didn't "enjoy" the work?What normal human could do that?

Did I say that Tiller didn't enjoy his work?

50

He was just taking care of the human weeds, reckless breeders,and spawning human beings that should have never been born.

51

This story has everything, I can't believe the media would embargo something this big.

I mean i understand why they are, but at the same time this is sensational in it's scope.

52 He was just taking care of the human weeds, reckless breeders,and spawning human beings that should have never been born.

Thank God I took the time to read the handle. I was about to go off!!!!

53

This story has everything, I can't believe the media would embargo something this big.

I mean i understand why they are, but at the same time this is sensational in it's scope.

They're still working on the messaging.

54 I would like to see Daryl Issa hold a public hearing on the legal oversight in this case. Have him supeona the records of the DOH's around the country and see if they are ignoring abortion mills like philidelphia is.

55 I'm skeptical but the fact that she is coming out anonymous and not just clawing for attention put it on the believable side of my skepticism.

While I am inherently skeptical as well - it's always nice to completely taint the jury pool - just to make sure every potential weasel is ready to drop the hammer on this guy.

56 This whole story makes me so sick I haven't been able to make it through much of the coverage. I hope they kill him like he killed those babies, I really do.

57 This story has everything, I can't believe the media would embargo something this big.

Ahem.

58 49 I wasn't casting aspersions at you.Sorry if it came out that way.

59 Looks like when she was Gov Sebilius she vetoed legislation in KS that would have mandated inspections in abortion mills there.

So overlooking abortion clinic operating conditions isn't just for PA. 

60 That biologist in Michigan needs to get roped into this as well.

61 I can't say I wasn't somewhat happy Tiller got his.I would have preferred living in a countryt that would arrest,convict and execute a man who did such things.

62 59 Sebelius is an evil bitch.She reminds me of the White Witch in Narnia.

63

This story has everything, I can't believe the media would embargo something this big.

I mean i understand why they are, but at the same time this is sensational in it's scope.

Abortion is a holy icon.  Just like Obama.  It is untouchable. 

64 What the hell makes you think that he would make any sort of rational distinction between that vein of violence and what this woman has reported?

Posted by: jmflynny at January 22, 2011 09:40 PM (piMMO)

The point is even even if he did it because he loved killing  of babies there were plenty of babies awaiting him. What's the point in forcing this women to do it?

The guy got away with this for as long as he did because he passed it off as a medical procedure. There's no way to pass off a beating and forced abortion as a medical procedure. If he had no other choices perhaps but he had lots of other choices. Even Jack the Ripper didn't start attacking every woman he met.

65

The point is even even if he did it because he loved killing  of babies there were plenty of babies awaiting him. What's the point in forcing this women to do it?

The guy got away with this for as long as he did because he passed it off as a medical procedure. There's no way to pass off a beating and forced abortion as a medical procedure. If he had no other choices perhaps but he had lots of other choices. Even Jack the Ripper didn't start attacking every woman he met.

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 09:52 PM (WxagK)

This guy is a sick friggin' bastard and I don't doubt for one minute that forcing a women to do it took gave him a different sort of jolly.

66 63 Yep.

67 http://tiny.cc/hadrs


“ItÂ’s a tragic situation, obviously. All of those of us who are pro-choice abhor this because it casts a negative light on that movement. All of us believe abortion should be legal, but it should be safe. Clearly, what this physician was doing was not safe. ItÂ’s not safe for the mother. ItÂ’s certainly not safe for the fetus.”  -Ed Rendell

When exactly is it ever safe for the 'fetus" Ed?

68 Sebelius is an evil bitch.She reminds me of the White Witch in Narnia. Posted by: steevy at January 22, 2011 09:52 PM

As Sebelius is a real person, she is much more frightening.

69 There's no way to pass off a beating and forced abortion as a medical procedure.

He didn't have to worry.  The "woman" was a minor who was being forced into the abortion by her guardian.  There's no way in hell he was going to face any repercussions for a few bruises or whatever on that girl. 

70 67 Hah!What a fucking moron(the bad kind).Reminds me of the great Joycelin Elders of "we need safer guns and safer bullets", fame

71 This man is being unnecessarily persecuted. He should be a hero of your state!

72 Gosnell? Who?

Is he a Republican?

73 I will eat my hat if this monster ever talked to one of his patients for more than 5 seconds let alone had anything to do with their prep. He doesn't seem like the bedside manner type. This was a cash business for this guy and business was VERY good. What's the point in forcing someone when 10 others are waiting?

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 09:22 PM (WxagK)

I agree more with this. This is the reason to be skeptical.  But what makes me wonder about whether this is a BS story is...cui bono?  What does she get from this?  It's not like the media is making this a big story or would make her a hero. She won't get much from a civil suit from him.

Our whole social-welfare system and criminal defense system are designed for poor, black 15-year-old girls.  She would have found enough sympathetic ears in the criminal defense bar...if it weren't for the fact that this was abortion.

A civil suit would have had a thousand liberal lawyers ready to put a sympathetic poor black girl against a rich doctor.  They could spend the money before filing the suit.  But not when the sacrament is at stake.

74

This guy is a sick friggin' bastard and I don't doubt for one minute that forcing a women to do it took gave him a different sort of jolly.

Posted by: Tami at January 22, 2011 09:55 PM (VuLos)

Then  you don't really understand evil. You, like most people, think it's written on people's faces or they're wantonly destructive. They aren't. They're methodical and they don't just do anything evil thing you can think of. They do their thing and they do it well.  I'm sure if you talk to this guy's family they will tell you what a wonderful and loving father and grandfather he was. Don't forget it wasn't his violence that caught this guy. It was his greed in selling scripts.

75 This all happened in (scary Boris Karloff voice) Pennsylvania!

76 73 It's not beyond the realm of possibility he did what she said.He was no doubt aware of the tendencies of liberal government to protect him from any fallout.

77 O/T: Did you know, Geraldo is a Republican? http://tinyurl.com/45la55u

78 I'd like to shove this man into a tight tube, puncture his skull and suck out his brains. Really, he should experience the whole ugly, awful thing. With what he did to those babies, to those women, to humanity, he should not be allowed to live, and he should die in fear and agony. While I believe in hell, and know he is headed there, I feel he should begin his hideous existence in earnest before even contemplating his perpetual life in hell. And first, every one of those women should line up and slap his face.

79 70 67 Hah!What a fucking moron(the bad kind).Reminds me of the great Joycelin Elders of "we need safer guns and safer bullets", fame

Posted by: steevy at January 22, 2011 10:01 PM (5Y1gW)

Democrats... just let them talk.  They are so stupid they step on their own feet.

80 77 So is Olympia Snowe.

81

Gosnell? Who?

Is he a Republican?

Tea Partier.  Isn't it obvious?

82

I prefer to withhold judgement on this woman.   Since the grand jury report has only recently been brought forward, there's no telling how many stories we may here.   That vile, murdering bastard killed many, many babies that we don't even know about.   If he can kill a squirming, breathing infant in such a horrendous way, there's no telling what he or his so-called staff is capable of.  

They should burn the mothereffer at the stake for all the world to see.

83

Without invoking Godwin's Law, this is reminiscent of Dr. Mengele.

This is truly sadsistic and sickening. Prepare yourselves for either the air-brushing of this person or the sick rationalizations used to justify.  Fast Eddie Rendell's is just the first.

This is indeed one of the faces of abortion.  Not all abortion doctors are this sick, but this is pretty perverted.  I went to school with quite a few people that went on to medical school, and not one of them ever spoke approvingly of abortion.  Most doctors abhor it, although only OB-Gyn doctors perform them (allegedly).  I think my wife's OB would kill himself before he would ever perform an abortion.

84 ItÂ’s certainly not safe for the fetus.”  -Ed Rendell

he did not really say that. what. the. fuck.

85

ItÂ’s certainly not safe for the fetus.”  -Ed Rendell

 

He killed living, breathing, crying infants you fuckstick.   FUCK YOU!

Rendell is just as guilty as the members of the Dept. of Health & the Dept. of State that allowed this shit to happen.  

86 Frankly I'd believe this bastard would have aborted the mother, too.

87

ItÂ’s certainly not safe for the fetus.”  -Ed Rendell

he did not really say that. what. the. fuck.

Liberals.  What more can be said?

88 He didn't have to worry.  The "woman" was a minor who was being forced into the abortion by her guardian.  There's no way in hell he was going to face any repercussions for a few bruises or whatever on that girl. 

Posted by: Y-not at January 22, 2011 10:01 PM (pW2o

She describes being physically stripped and tied to a table by one old man. If it had happened she would have had more than a few bruises. 

“That’s when he grabbed me and he started pulling off my clothes,” she says. “He did manage to get my clothes off and he managed to get me on the table. He would tie my arms down first and then tie my legs to the stirrups, that’s when he grabbed my leg and turned me to the side and began smacking me over and over again, the way you would a child”

Her story itself shows she is full of it. Her legs were tied to the stirrups but yet he turned her to the side. How exactly does that happen? Was this abortion being done in a dentist's chair? She just described it as a table.

89
he did not really say that. what. the. fuck.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd at January 22, 2011 10:15 PM (eCAn3)

Oh yeah.. he did.

90 Her story itself shows she is full of it. Her legs were tied to the stirrups but yet he turned her to the side. How exactly does that happen? Was this abortion being done in a dentist's chair? She just described it as a table.

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 10:19 PM (WxagK)

You could easily have your feet/legs tied to stirrups and have the rest of your body forcibly twisted to the side.

91

Liberals.  What more can be said?

Posted by: katya, the designated driver at January 22, 2011 10:19 PM (WHVoq)

Exactly. 

92

You could easily have your feet/legs tied to stirrups and have the rest of your body forcibly twisted to the side.

Posted by: Tami at January 22, 2011 10:21 PM (VuLos)

She doesn't describe that as forcible and if she is tied down at 4 points he wouldn't need to turn her to get at her. 

93

Liberals.  What more can be said?

Posted by: katya, the designated driver at January 22, 2011 10:19 PM (WHVoq)

I've got a few words but we're going for a new tone of civility right? I'd like to back ol' Fat Ed up against a wall, and ask him where exactly does murdering babies fit into that whole civility thing.

94

Posted by: trace at January 22, 2011 09:12 PM (0a4fB)

I often think the priest/kid thing was hyped so much in the press to shut the Catholic Church up on abortion. These maggots have no problem with kid/adult affairs, NAMBLA, Roman Polanski. They wanted the Catholic Church to STFU regarding abortion. I believe the kid/priest thing was wrong, but if their sacred cows are involved it really means nothing.

95

She doesn't describe that as forcible and if she is tied down at 4 points he wouldn't need to turn her to get at her. 

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 10:29 PM (WxagK)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'get at her'....the abortion itself? 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what she's describing at that point, he was spanking her.

that’s when he grabbed my leg and turned me to the side and began smacking me over and over again, the way you would a child”

96 Her grandmother forced her to have the abortion.   At what point was she supposed to go to the police?    (And yes... one can twist to the side without moving your feet... try it.)

Somehow the number of women who have an abortion but no *choice* never makes it to the "pro-choice" agenda.

If it's grandma, or mom and dad, or the boyfriend or husband driving to the clinic, or across state lines or to the expensive doc who does the late term abortions on the down-low... heck, it's not even possible to "choose" by hiding the pregnancy until it's too late.

97

Or you can watch The Dark Knight on TNT

I know i might ruffle some feathers, but having seen the movie several times now, including midnight the night it opened, i've come to the realization that it isn't a good movie.

The only bright spot is heath ledger's joker. The rest of the story doesn't make a ton of sense and is convoluted

Posted by: Ben at January 22, 2011 09:24 PM (DKV43)

Agreed. I saw it twice in the theaters, wanted to like it, but just couldn't make myself like it that much. Batman Begins was much better.

98

death panel Kathleen at January 22, 2011 09:48 PM (bqjJT)

Did you know that pig Sebelius got 38,000 from George Tiller?

99 More, if they were tying her down it was probably because she was twisting all over herself, so on a twist, push her leg over and hold it, and paddle her butt.   Even if her feet *and* hands were tied she could twist her body around.

100 "although only OB-Gyn doctors perform them (allegedly)" Not true. Any doctor can perform an abortion. Gosnell was a Family Practitioner. In fact, liberals are pushing to allow RN's and CNM's to be able to perform abortions.

101 Posted by: Tami at January 22, 2011 10:35 PM (VuLos)

Honestly it never even occurred to me to think of it as a spanking. I thought he turned her to the side to get at her face. The turning being like that in an exam chair. It does seem odd he would be spanking her and then choose her arm for an injection rather than her butt. What would have been the point of the spanking? I thought the smacking was an attempt to subdue her or get her to shut up.

“He injected a needle into my right arm and I said ‘I hope I die, so you regret this for the rest of your life.’”

Also does that seem a pretty odd thing for someone being forced to do something to say? Wouldn't she have hoped HE died? Or swear she would make him regret it? Are there a lot of people here willing to die just so your killer has some regrets? Did she think it likely that he would care much about her dying after  tying her to a table and forcibly aborting her baby?

102 Mission accomplished, Nancy Pelosi!

103

 In fact, liberals are pushing to allow RN's and CNM's to be able to perform abortions. Posted by: lauren at January 22, 2011 10:41 PM (KNAZ+)

My lovely deceased mother made me promise when I got my RN that I would never be party to any abortion. Not that she had to ask, but she could see how it was becoming like a tooth extraction.

104 More, if they were tying her down it was probably because she was twisting all over herself, so on a twist, push her leg over and hold it, and paddle her butt.   Even if her feet *and* hands were tied she could twist her body around.

Posted by: Synova at January 22, 2011 10:41 PM (P0X9Q)

She is pretty clear HE did this. Not with the aid of any staff or a guardian. Everything that is done he does.

105 Hell, who needs an RN? Gosnell had cosmetologists and 15-year-old high school students performing the offices.

106

My lovely deceased mother made me promise when I got my RN that I would never be party to any abortion. Not that she had to ask, but she could see how it was becoming like a tooth extraction.

Posted by: madamex at January 22, 2011 10:48 PM (eKfWX)

Awww...  God bless her soul.

107 What he never had, over more than 30 years, is a legally licensed physician or nurse on his staff.

108

Is there anyone out there, a journalist or somebody, who has written a truthful expose of the abortion industry in America?

I'd be interested in reading it and getting that person on as many talk/news shows as possible.

109 " Gosnell had cosmetologists and 15-year-old high school students performing the offices." This isn't uncommon either. Many abortionists train their secretarial staff to perform medical procedures.

110 "Is there anyone out there, a journalist or somebody, who has written a truthful expose of the abortion industry in America?" Check out Mark Crutchner at Life Dynamics. He's been exposing the underbelly of abortion for a long time.

111 Haven't read the whole thread, so it may have already been mentioned, but according to Grand Jury report, the staff members admitted that after their abortions, several women complained of smack marks...wondering how they got there. 

112 108

Is there anyone out there, a journalist or somebody, who has written a truthful expose of the abortion industry in America?

Jill Stanek... www.jillstanek.com

113 There's no way to pass off a beating and forced abortion as a medical procedure.

Really?

Again.

He enjoyed his work. Further, I'd guess he felt some sort of twisted duty to do what he did. I'd bet that if they checked his bookshelf they'd find all sorts of shit about "cleansing".

I hope to hell they find a journal somewhere.

Further...how the hell can you even BEGIN to question what that man is capable of doing?

114 Thanks, Doc!

115

These fucking bastards (I'm talking about the Press) are really starting to piss me off. They ignored this story for as long as they could but now that they can't ignore it any longer they are going to spin it... I just saw this AP story via Yahoo News and this part was just to predictable:

Johnson, then 21, had a 3-year-old daughter when she became pregnant again. She said she first went to Planned Parenthood in downtown Philadelphia but was frightened away by protesters."The picketers out there, they just scared me half to death," Johnson, now 30, recalled this week. Someone sent her to Gosnell's West Philadelphia clinic, at the Women's Medical Society, saying anti-abortion protesters wouldn't be a problem there.  

At the risk of repeating myself what a bunch of fucking bastards. 

116 Rocks!

WTF is wrong with you?

Do you hear yourself?! You are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to that murdering mother-fucker and condemn the woman!

TaDa!!!!

Who was it that said above that to report the crime wouldn't have meant much because he was a doctor and she was just a poor black girl?

117 Further...how the hell can you even BEGIN to question what that man is capable of doing?

Posted by: John Edwards, Still grieving for his lost love at January 22, 2011 11:08 PM (piMMO)

Anyone is "capable" of anything.  Being capable of something doesn't make it likely.

He enjoyed his work. Well his work was killing babies not beating women up. No one paid him to beat women up. They paid him to kill their babies and give them scripts for large unneeded amounts of Oxycontin. The guy fancied himself a Doctor and a surgeon. Do you know of a lot of Doctor's that beat up their patients so they can treat them? How many Doctors and dentists have been busted for raping their patients? How many of those beat their patients before hand instead of just waiting for them to be under?

118 Seriously, I'm dropping out before I have a fucking stroke.

119

Gosnell asked in court Thursday that seven of the murder charges against him be explained. He raised his eyebrows as Magistrate Jane Rice detailed the charges on the baby deaths.

Evidently the SOB believes that late term abortion is legal including the severing of the spinal cord when they're outside the womb & breathing.

The sad part is that he may have gotten off on the murder charges for the infants if he had just delivered them and left them in a utility closet to die.   You know, the Obama option.

120 " You know, the Obama option." Yep, wouldn't want to burden the woman's original intent to abort.

121 Posted by: John Edwards, Still grieving for his lost love at January 22, 2011 11:16 PM (piMMO)

I don't doubt her because of her age race or sex. I doubt her story because it's sounds like a bunch of made up incoherent junk. It sounds like the stories you here out of people who run onto city buses after they were rear ended.

I doubt her for the same reason I doubt that stupid psychic women who showed up claiming she had given a private reading years ago to Jared Loughner and conveniently the only person who could collaborate was her agent.


I'm not giving any benefit of the doubt to anybody,  including the doctor.

I don't need to believe some cockamamie story just to hate this guy. What he did was plenty evil enough.

122 He enjoyed his work. Well his work was killing babies not beating women up. No one paid him to beat women up.


And you don't think the violence that he committed daily for decades of his life effected him in a way that it might not be limited to paying jobs?

123 Wouldn't she have hoped HE died? Or swear she would make him regret it? Are there a lot of people here willing to die just so your killer has some regrets? Did she think it likely that he would care much about her dying after  tying her to a table and forcibly aborting her baby?

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 10:47 PM (WxagK)

Are you a woman?   If not, then you can't understand how it might make a 15 year old girl think, if she feels she is being forced to have an abortion.   Maybe she felt like she wanted to die.

Either way, maybe it's best to withhold judgement, because frankly, we have no ideas what this fucking pos was capable of.   He didn't even understand why he was being charged with murder for killing those babies.

124 Gosnell is certainly not alone in the quack department. The following doctors are all NAF approved (thanks Christina at Realchoice) Hanan Rotem, who got caught letting an untrained receptionist administer general anesthesia in the wake of a patient death Midtown Hospital, a filthy mill caught doing illegal third trimester abortions Abu "The Butcher of Avenue A" Hayat, who killed a teenage abortion patient, molested others, and got even Phil Donohue's attention when he ripped the arm off a 32-week baby who was subsequently born alive. On the other hand, they've remained steadfastly faithful to: Robert Crist, who has killed three abortion patients, including a Texas teenager who bled to death while her frantic brother in law was calling 911 Eastern Women's Center, that killed three abortion patients (including a 13-year-old girl left unattended to lapse into a coma while still under anesthesia) and couldn't find their medical director for three days Steve Lichtenberg, who remains a popular presenter at their "Risk Management Seminars" even after what Michael Burnhill scolded him as "playing Russian roulette with patients' lives" killed a 13-year-old girl

125 I didn't read all the comments so I don't know if anyone else saw this but I just read an article about another women who says this same thing happened to her. Her name is Davida Johnson, she was 21 at the time. She said she had a change of heart but he hit her, tied her down, and gave her more meds, then did the abortion.

126 The short answer is her parents paid and he was dang well keeping the fee, she was a misbehaving child and he was there to enforce.

127

He enjoyed his work. Well his work was killing babies not beating women up. No one paid him to beat women up. They paid him to kill their babies and give them scripts for large unneeded amounts of Oxycontin. The guy fancied himself a Doctor and a surgeon. Do you know of a lot of Doctor's that beat up their patients so they can treat them? How many Doctors and dentists have been busted for raping their patients? How many of those beat their patients before hand instead of just waiting for them to be under?

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 11:18 PM (WxagK)

And a young girl, pitching a fit and not cooperating in any way was preventing him from getting to the next paying customer.

Whatever....we see this differently.

128 Yeah... On the one hand this is the kind of thing that it would be useful to have be true from a pr perspective, but seriously? Not only do I question the timing (sure, she somehow couldn't bring herself to come forward until the doc became a media figure, guaranteeing her story lots of coverage and host-full of attendees to the pity party), but the details. I find it interesting that at the beginning it mentions that the doctor was apparently doing all this at the behest of the grandmother, but somehow it all becomes about him. But yeah, his only apparent motivation would have been the grandma's check, which hardly seems to justify this sort of over the top behaviour. Until they dig up video footage giving this some credence, I'm going to remain highly skeptical.

129 And you don't think the violence that he committed daily for decades of his life effected him in a way that it might not be limited to paying jobs?

Posted by: kidney at January 22, 2011 11:30 PM (ENRGu)

Okay, lets say he is doing this simply because he loves and gets off on violence. If that's true why does he limit his violence to getting her  tied up and some spanking? Wouldn't some guy who gets off on violence simply of gone on to bigger and nastier things  now that he was in a position of complete dominance? Instead he sedates her,  limiting the thrill of the violence as she would have no response, and proceed to an abortion? 

130

Rocks, don't be obtuse.   It's not about the violence.   It's about the money.   The violence was just a means to an end.

131 But yeah, his only apparent motivation would have been the grandma's check, which hardly seems to justify this sort of over the top behaviour.

THIS sort of over the top behaviour?

Good God you people are losing your friggin minds!

132 Okay, lets say he is doing this simply because he loves and gets off on violence. If that's true why does he limit his violence to getting her  tied up and some spanking? Wouldn't some guy who gets off on violence simply of gone on to bigger and nastier things  now that he was in a position of complete dominance?

What? Like stabbing live babies in the back of the neck with scissors and then cutting their spinal cord?

133

And a young girl, pitching a fit and not cooperating in any way was preventing him from getting to the next paying customer.

Whatever....we see this differently.

Posted by: Tami at January 22, 2011 11:40 PM (VuLos)

That's my whole point Tami. He had plenty of willing and waiting customers. Why go through this hassle for the same amount of cash the other 3 15 year olds in the other waiting rooms are willing to pay without a peep? Simply for the "thrill" of fighting tooth and nail with a 15 year old? This guy was grossing millions of dollars.

134

Instead he sedates her,  limiting the thrill of the violence as she would have no response, and proceed to an abortion? 

The ultimate violence?

135

Rocks, don't be obtuse.   It's not about the violence.   It's about the money.   The violence was just a means to an end.

Posted by: Steph at January 22, 2011 11:44 PM (AkdC5)

So he's going through all that for the cash when he has other patients waiting and ready? Ones who he doesn't have to forcibly undress and tie down.

136 He had plenty of willing and waiting customers. Why go through this hassle for the same amount of cash the other 3 15 year olds in the other waiting rooms are willing to pay without a peep? Simply for the "thrill" of fighting tooth and nail with a 15 year old? This guy was grossing millions of dollars.

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 11:47 PM (WxagK)

The grand jury report stated that he performed abortions on underage girls against their will, if their mothers asked him to.   My God, why are you arguing about this.   The effer did it.   He forced girls to have abortions whether they wanted them or not, because their mothers paid for it.

Read the damn grand jury report.   Then come back and tell us what he didn't do.   That would be quicker and easier than telling us what he did.

137

The ultimate violence?

Posted by: dagny at January 22, 2011 11:48 PM (A7E3U)

Yes, that other women are willing, waiting and wanting him to do. Without any trouble or fuss out of them.

138 He is a fucking monster. He is not human. He is evil. There is not a reasonable description of what he is or is not capable of doing. How you could think that you could put parameters on his motives is ridiculous. He did whatever he wanted. He played god, actually more satan, and did whatever he wished to do.

139 Twana and Crystal Magnum were accusing otherwise lawful citizens of felonies. In this case she is accusing a murderer who performed illegal abortions of performing an illegal abortion. Doesn't seem like a stretch.

140 WTF Rocks?

Are you related to the sonofabitch?!

141

That's my whole point Tami. He had plenty of willing and waiting customers. Why go through this hassle for the same amount of cash the other 3 15 year olds in the other waiting rooms are willing to pay without a peep? Simply for the "thrill" of fighting tooth and nail with a 15 year old? This guy was grossing millions of dollars.

Posted by: Rocks at January 22, 2011 11:47 PM (WxagK)

Why do you assume that this girl's experience is a one off situation in that office?  How do you know the reaction this girl had wasn't the same as many patients in his office?  You seriously believe that every patient he had was willing and cooperative and so this girl's story doesn't add up?  Until I hear otherwise, I'm inclined to believe her.

142

Murder is the ultimate violence. The mothers are complicit too. I don't give a shit if society has convinced them at some shallow level that it's okey-dokey, it's still violence.

BTW, giving birth is really violent too. It's brutal, excruciatingly painful and bloody. Without meds, you scream and want nothing more than to die. At the end you have a beautiful baby to love more than yourself so the violence, the agony, and the mess is creative not the ultimate destruction.

143 An OB/GYN I know who is very active in the pro-life movement told me once that while every OB knows how to perform an abortion (D & C's are done when a miscarrying woman shows up at the ER), it is a simple, albeit depressing procedure. So, yeah, I suppose even non-medical staff could be trained to perform one. My OB friend told me real OB's, even those who profess to be pro-choice, have the deepest contempt for professional abortionists. Most OB's choose that specialty because they love delivering babies. (Think about it - the Mom/Baby unit at the hospital is really the happiest place in a hospital.) The physicians who staff the abortion mills are usually too incompetent and/or lazy to have normal practices. My friend is a practicing Catholic (with 8 kids!), and said he has never understood how anybody with OB training can possibly deny the humanity of the unborn.

144 I didn't know that murder had a statute of limitations. If he didn't deliver the baby, it's technically infanticide, which has a SoL -- something the grand jury specifically noted and asked the legislature to change. I disagree with the others. It is entirely consistent with the rest of the grand jury report. On the forms that they gave women concerning sedation, one of the reasons to pay extra for it (yes, they were selling sedation) was if you were "being forced to get an abortion." There was another woman that he hit on the thighs for yelling and "acting up" noted in the grand jury report as well.

145 This guy worked 7 days a week to kill as many as possible. He had plenty of money. He liked the killing.

146

Wouldn't some guy who gets off on violence simply of gone on to bigger and nastier things  now that he was in a position of complete dominance?

LIKE KILLING THE BABY SHE WANTED?

GOOD GRIEF

147 Steph I would read it. All 260 pages. All I have seen are news reports. Like this one.

As the abortion got under way, she had a change of heart — but claims she was forced by the doctor to continue.

"I said, 'I don't want to do this,' and he smacked me. They tied my hands and arms down and gave me more medication," Johnson told The Associated Press.

THAT sounds credible. 

Unlicensed staff members gave Mongar far too much anesthesia for her 4-foot-11-inch, 110-pound body, hours before Gosnell arrived for his evening slate of abortions, the grand jury charged.

...

Gosnell typically worked from about 8 p.m. until after midnight, arriving only after his pregnant patients were dilated, sedated and ready for the abortion procedure.


You tell me.  How exactly does that jive with the girl's story?

148 You missed the part where he came in Sundays with his wife?

149

Why do you assume that this girl's experience is a one off situation in that office?  How do you know the reaction this girl had wasn't the same as many patients in his office?  You seriously believe that every patient he had was willing and cooperative and so this girl's story doesn't add up?  Until I hear otherwise, I'm inclined to believe her.

Posted by: Tami at January 23, 2011 12:01 AM (VuLos)

You seriously believe this guy made millions this way? I don't believe every patient was willing and cooperative. What I do believe is this guy had plenty enough women who wanted abortions to not be bothered with the women who didn't. But apparently the thrill of tying up and druggin' a 15 year old was just too much to resist or something.

150 Wait! I see the future.

He will somehow turn out to be a right-wing Christian zealot with a twisted sense of right and wrong.

151 Again, Rocks.

Seriously. Are you on the fucking payroll?

152 #143  So, yeah, I suppose even non-medical staff could be trained to perform one

I suppose, but when stuff goes bad in OB, it can go crazy bad in a very short period of time.  I've seen women lose a boatload of blood in 5 minutes during a D and C.  You need an OB problem solving the bleeding, and Anesthesia/Nursing starting more IV's and pouring in fluid/blood to maintain vital signs.  I've been in the OR for 25 yrs now, and have been involved in 3 real thrashes during DandC.

So, for a run of the mill situation, others can maybe do them, but you want the experience of the competent doc when it unexpectedly hits the fan. 

153

Yeah, he was a really sweet guy and if some random little girl didn't want her baby killed, he would say, "OK Sweetheat, I understand, here's your granny's money back and a lollypop. Run along now."

Or maybe if she resisted the staff, Ol Kermit had to take care of it himself? 

154

You seriously believe this guy made millions this way? I don't believe every patient was willing and cooperative. What I do believe is this guy had plenty enough women who wanted abortions to not be bothered with the women who didn't. But apparently the thrill of tying up and druggin' a 15 year old was just too much to resist or something.

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 12:13 AM (WxagK)

Clearly I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.  We disagree about this.

155 Don't worry Tami. You're right.

156 WTF Rocks?

Are you related to the sonofabitch?!

Posted by: jmflynny at January 22, 2011 11:58 PM (piMMO)

No. This is what kills me about this entire thing. Nor am I defending him. I'm just saying this girl's story does not seem credible and I think it's a poor excuse to indict the  court system or police with, especially Philly's, which is what this post's main thrust seems to be.

Let's not forget it was the police performing a narcotics investigation which finally got this guy. But they would have ignored some poor 15 year old black girl with bruises and obviously having had an abortion when she showed up and made a complaint apparently.

It's total BS.

The guy was a cold blooded inhuman fuck running an abortion mill and killing them as quickly and cheaply as he could.

157 Thanks Dagny....we both are.  Rocks just sees it in a way I can't understand.

158

157 He would have a point if this guy weren't a know creep.

159

Yeah, he was a really sweet guy and if some random little girl didn't want her baby killed, he would say, "OK Sweetheat, I understand, here's your granny's money back and a lollypop. Run along now."

Or maybe if she resisted the staff, Ol Kermit had to take care of it himself? 

Posted by: dagny at January 23, 2011 12:16 AM (A7E3U)

No, I believe like most abortionists he never even met them till their are under and on the table. What exactly did he have all this unqualified and underage staff for if he had to forcibly undress and tie down patients himself for?

160 Rocks, consider that the girl's grandmother already paid in cash.  You think he wants to return the $.  Of course, he doesn't need it.  But greed is a power emotion.  And is it inconceivable that the girl cooperated until the Dr came in, hoping he would listen to her.

161

"I said, 'I don't want to do this,' and he smacked me. They tied my hands and arms down and gave me more medication," Johnson told The Associated Press.

THAT sounds credible. 

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 12:09 AM (WxagK)

This is from the actual grand jury report.

Gosnell asserted that he always administered the anesthesia, something any of the clinic workers would have refuted. He acknowledged that he let his patients choose their own anesthesia from mixes entitled “heavy,” “twilight sleep,” and “custom sleep” – names that should have been a tip-off that someone at the clinic was heavily sedating patients.

The SOB did this shit for years.   The statement that you posted from one woman says that she decided that she didn't want an abortion, but he smacked her, tied her down and gave her medication.  HOW is that much different?   The 15 year old just gave a more detailed description of what happened to her.

You can argue the point all you want, but all you're doing is nit picking.   I read the report, as much as it sickened me.   It gives me every reason to believe the girl.

As a matter of fact, what you posted only contradicts your other comments that he would not force someone to have an abortion.   HE DID!

162

It's total BS.

The guy was a cold blooded inhuman fuck running an abortion mill and killing them as quickly and cheaply as he could.

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 12:22 AM (WxagK)

See, now you just look stupid.   Sorry.   The grand jury report specifically names the Dept. of Health & the Dept. of State as being at fault, because there were many reports made about this man including some deaths.   They were ignored, and in the words of the report by design.

So, before you continue to appear ignorant about the actual facts in the case, read the report. 

163 Stpeh I notice you didn't bold where ANY of his staff would have refuted this. Are we using using Gosnell's testimony to shore up the idea that HE forcibly undressed a girl and tied her down?  He is insisting he gave the anesthesia because he did  not anesthesiologist on staff. If he was to admit anyone else did it EVERY single patient he ever had would have a winning lawsuit. He's covering his own ass.

What I quoted is different from this girl because he had already started. That's a big difference from what this girl describes.

164 And he did not force the women in the story I quoted to have an abortion. he forced her to complete one that was already started.

165 I really need to STFU.

166

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 12:40 AM (WxagK)

Read the damn report.   You are arguing points which are refuted in the report.  If you don't want to read it, just say so and continue to show your ignorance of the facts found in the report. 

167

See, now you just look stupid.   Sorry.   The grand jury report specifically names the Dept. of Health & the Dept. of State as being at fault, because there were many reports made about this man including some deaths.   They were ignored, and in the words of the report by design.

So, before you continue to appear ignorant about the actual facts in the case, read the report. 

Posted by: Steph at January 23, 2011 12:39 AM (AkdC5)

Hows does this relate to The guy was a cold blooded inhuman fuck running an abortion mill and killing them as quickly and cheaply as he could.?

168

Hows does this relate to The guy was a cold blooded inhuman fuck running an abortion mill and killing them as quickly and cheaply as he could.?

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 12:43 AM (WxagK)

You're right.   This is the part I was responding to.

I think it's a poor excuse to indict the  court system or police with, especially Philly's, which is what this post's main thrust seems to be.

Let's not forget it was the police performing a narcotics investigation which finally got this guy. But they would have ignored some poor 15 year old black girl with bruises and obviously having had an abortion when she showed up and made a complaint apparently.

It's total BS.

 

169 Oh, and Rocks, just so you know, even the hospitals that women showed up at with parts of babies still inside them didn't report it to the police which is the law.

170 Rocks, consider that the girl's grandmother already paid in cash.  You think he wants to return the $.  Of course, he doesn't need it.  But greed is a power emotion.  And is it inconceivable that the girl cooperated until the Dr came in, hoping he would listen to her.

Posted by: wheresmypudding at January 23, 2011 12:32 AM (Nh4c7)

So this guy. One who had already been sued and paid out numerous times for sloppy work and probably had malpractice insurance running well into the 6 figures was going to risk another lawsuit and forcibly undress, tie down and sedate a woman himself for a little over thousand dollars, and the violent thrill remember that,   when he had other willing patients waiting.

171 Oh, and Rocks, just so you know, even the hospitals that women showed up at with parts of babies still inside them didn't report it to the police which is the law.

Posted by: Steph at January 23, 2011 12:49 AM (AkdC5)

Steph this guy was obviously a butcher. But everything he has been accused of, credibly, has been related to the actual abortions themselves and what occurred during them. Not what preceded them.

172 You're right.   This is the part I was responding to.

Posted by: Steph at January 23, 2011 12:46 AM (AkdC5)

I don't disagree. The Dept. of Health & the Dept. of State are at fault and I am sure there is going to be once huge case and settlement paid out because of it. Which is what I think the prime motivation of this girls story is. She wants in on the gravy train but not having been an actual victim she comes up with an unbelievable story. 

She probably did have an abortion there. Maybe she even changed her mind at some point. But I just don't find it credible this guy would go to those lengths just to perform an abortion on her when so many were willing.

173 All I know, is this man had no problem severing the spinal cords of born babies.  What kind of monster holds a squirming baby, who is either struggling to breath or just took its first breath and then drives a pair of scissors into it's neck and kills it.

I don't doubt anything he is accused of until I see concrete proof said accuser is lying.

174 But I just don't find it credible this guy would go to those lengths just to perform an abortion on her when so many were willing.

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 12:59 AM (WxagK)

Did you read my comment about the grand jury stating that he performed abortions on underage girls, who specifically stated they didn't want to have the abortion, and he did it because their mothers asked him to.   For the money.

How the hell do you think he performed an abortion on them, if they didn't want it, and told him they didn't want it?   Or are you just ignoring that fact?

175

Did you read my comment about the grand jury stating that he performed abortions on underage girls, who specifically stated they didn't want to have the abortion, and he did it because their mothers asked him to.   For the money.

How the hell do you think he performed an abortion on them, if they didn't want it, and told him they didn't want it?   Or are you just ignoring that fact?

Posted by: Steph at January 23, 2011 01:13 AM (AkdC5)

I have the Grand Jury report Steph. I've searched it. No mention is made of him undressing any patients. 

I would ask how his forcing them jives with this from the report:

An “Anesthesia for Surgery” form [Appendix B] presented to patients for their
signature – and payment – did not identify or describe the drugs to be administered.
However, it suggested:
It will probably be best to pay the extra money and be more
comfortable if some of the following conditions are true for
you.
1. The decision to have the procedure is a difficult
decision.
2. Medication is usually necessary for your
menstrual cramps.
3. Your decision has been forced by your parents
or partner.
4. Your family members or friends “don’t like
pain.”

Now he undoubtedly would perform abortions on girls who parents or partners had forced their decision.  But I see no indication in the report he forced anything prior to the start of the abortion.

But something else just occurred to me. If the intent was to knock this girl out for an abortion what was the point of forcibly undressing her and tying her up first? Wouldn't it have made more sense to forcibly give her the shot, wait for her to go under, and then proceed? Or better yet lie about the shot and saying this was just an exam or something? But he wouldn't have gotten his violent thrill that way, I forgot.

Also, does it make a lot of sense to tell a patient in a form they must sign that you know they may have been forced into this decision prior to even getting them in the room if you intended to force them yourself?

176 I don't doubt anything he is accused of until I see concrete proof said accuser is lying.

Posted by: wheresmypudding at January 23, 2011 01:11 AM (Nh4c7)

I base the credibility of what's being accused based on what's said. Rather than on how I feel about who is being accused. Especially if the accusation is going to then be used by some blogger to suggest the Police or Court System is at fault in some way. even one as bad as Philly's.

177

Ref # 125  I didn't read all the comments so I don't know if anyone else saw this but I just read an article about another women who says this same thing happened to her. Her name is Davida Johnson

Yes I mentioned this (see #115)... but I mentioned it because of the way the AP Story managed to sort of blame the anti abortion protesters.  

178

Also, does it make a lot of sense to tell a patient in a form they must sign that you know they may have been forced into this decision prior to even getting them in the room if you intended to force them yourself?
Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 01:39 AM (WxagK)

Do you think the underage girls even saw that form, or did the mothers sign the forms for them?   I mean, it wasn't the girls that paid.     Add to that the fact that many of the records for his 'patients' were not filled out or complete, and in many non-existent.    You're basing this argument on hin actually having people fill out the proper forms?

I base the credibility of what's being accused based on what's said. Rather than on how I feel about who is being accused. Especially if the accusation is going to then be used by some blogger to suggest the Police or Court System is at fault in some way. even one as bad as Philly's.

The grand jury detailed a number of instances in which the Department of State ignored ongoing atrocities in Gosnell’s operation, where prosecutors clearly knew they had the power to press charges and declined to do so — or even investigate the numerous allegations of malpractice and fraud.

You're basing your argument on specious bullshit.

179

The grand jury detailed a number of instances in which the Department of State ignored ongoing atrocities in Gosnell’s operation, where prosecutors clearly knew they had the power to press charges and declined to do so — or even investigate the numerous allegations of malpractice and fraud.

You're basing your argument on specious bullshit.

Posted by: Steph at January 23, 2011 02:14 AM (AkdC5)

Steph that does make this women automatically credible, sorry. You aren't automatically telling the truth just because the person you are accusing is obviously evil or because the Dept of  Health or State is corrupt  Nor does it prove the Police would have ignored her had she complained. As too the forms I bring them up because that form was what was used to induce people to pay for higher, more expensive, levels of anesthesia. You can be damn sure the forms they used to make more money were shown if it  might induce the girl to push for her parent to spend more money to shut her up. It's the whole purpose of the instruction form.

If you read on page 60-61 of the report it's clear that the type of things she's describing, the slaps and medication, are used on late abortions where he used his usual MO, induced labor.

A: I donÂ’t know. He would just ask you what it was, you
know, what she was doing.
Q: For instance, if someone was carrying on, really crying
out in pain –
A: Oh, you would knock them out completely.
Q: Why?
A: Because he wouldn’t want you – he didn’t want to hear
all that. He just didnÂ’t want to hear all that. He didnÂ’t want
that in his office. He didnÂ’t like confrontation. He didnÂ’t
like nobody calling the police or anything. He didnÂ’t like
none of that stuff going on.
Q: So he would just drug a girl in the back if she was complaining and carrying on?

A: If she was out of hand, yeah, she would get put under.

Q: How often would that happen?
A: Any time somebody got out of hand.
Q: How often would people get out of hand?
A: LetÂ’s say 24 weeks and youÂ’re feeling all of it, I would
say at least three a week, three or four a week, something
like that.

And he used these why? Because he did not want to upset the the other patients. Does it sound likely that a Doctor who "didn't like confrontation" forcibly undressed and tied down a patient himself?

He used these tactics to shut up women already in labor. Women for whom it would be difficult and expensive for him to reverse their labor. Or that he had already spent time and money on preparing for the abortion. There's nothing in the report which suggest this was done just to get a girl to have an abortion to begin with as this girl describes.

180

Rocks, you can't perform an abortion with the 'patient's' clothes on.   At least not all of their clothes.   If she didn't want the abortion, and was resisting, I don't find it hard to believe that he would remove part of her clothing.

Now, I really don't care if you believe her or not.   Every one of your arguments about this report, but this one, have been debunked.   I'm not going to argue about it any more.   Even in some of your replies, you rebut your own arguments.

A: If she was out of hand, yeah, she would get put under.

There is no reason to believe this young girl did not struggle.  She didn't want the abortion and told him that.   The grand jury report states that he performed abortions on unwilling children, because their mothers wanted it and paid for it.   There is no reason to believe that he didn't tie her down.  He did it with others.  Even one of your posts states that. There is no reason to believe he didn't smack/spank her.  He did it with others.   Again, also from one of your posts.   There is no reason to believe he didn't remove, at least partially, her clothing.   Can't perform an abortion without doing that.

There is no reason to believe that the authorities knowing what was happening there would have done anything about it.  The grand jury report states that they, in fact, knew plenty and ignored it by design.   In fact, the only reason this came to light was that they raided it for illegal drug trafficking.  Evidently, that was more important to them than the atrocities this sick bastard and his staff perpetrated.

There is no reason to believe that prosecutors did not ignore complaints of abuse, malpractice & death at that clinic for years.   The grand jury report confirms that they did.

If this girl was so gung ho to come out, now, for possible financial gain, why is she asking not to have her identity known?

Your arguments don't hold water. 

I may be proven wrong about this girl, but nothing in what she says is much different from the actual report & other testimony in the report, and I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt for those reasons alone.

181 Steph she clearly states HE, not they or with the aide of his staff as the other woman describes, removed her clothes and tied her down, THEN gave her medication. If you are going to forcibly abort someones  child   would you begin with removing their clothes or even tying them down and spanking? Neither, you'd knock them out. It makes no difference if removing clothes are needed or patients were tied down as that is not what makes her not credible.

What makes this girl  not credible is not that she doesn't describe things he has done rather she clearly describes then in a way which is nonsensical and contrary to the witness testimony in the report. No former staff member describes him undressing a patient, or spanking or forcing an abortion on a patient who hadn't already begun the procedure. Despite these staff members willingly describing multiple crimes committed by him including murder.

The question is not whether these things could have happened. ANYTHING could have happened. The question is does her statement makes sense compared to everyone else? It doesn't.

There is no reason to believe that prosecutors did not ignore complaints of abuse, malpractice & death at that clinic for years.   The grand jury report confirms that they did.

You keep describing these people as prosecutors when they are lawyers and bureaucrats responsible for oversight. They aren't part of the judicial system and they aren't prosecutors.

If this girl was so gung ho to come out, now, for possible financial gain, why is she asking not to have her identity known?

Your arguments don't hold water. 

I may be proven wrong about this girl, but nothing in what she says is much different from the actual report & other testimony in the report, and I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt for those reasons alone.

Posted by: Steph at January 23, 2011 04:21 AM (AkdC5)

She may be keeping her identity secret to a reporter, who knows why. Perhaps she is unwilling to be seen as someone who has had an abortion till it's clear she's going to get paid.  But the DA she called knows who she is and so does the reporter. There is now a  record showing her making a complaint available for any later civil case.

Not only is what she saying much different from the report it totally contradictory. There's no indication he had anything whatsoever to do with a patient prior to the time they are already in the stirrups. Unless they were white, in which case he was totally deferential to them even going so far as to using his private office to make them more comfortable. Which would make him forcibly undressing them, etc.  even more odd.

Which brings up another point. Ben, in his original post, assumes this girl is black to make his point. I see no indication from the news report that in any way shows she is black. Her name is unknown, she appears in shadow and her voice is altered.  His argument that most of his patients are black holds no water. There is no indication she is black and there are multiple reports of minorities coming forward with complaints against him over the years even if they were ignored by the health department. All indications are hospitals and police did refer the complaints to the correct agencies. The agencies solely responsible fro investigation. Those agencies simply refused to do anything.

182 Make that secret to the public, not the reporter.

183 #181 First rule of hole digging applies. Do you know what a locial fallacy is?

184

You're still assigning reasonable and rational behavior to a guy who is obviously criminal. Not only did he indulge in illegal, dangerous, and avaricious behavior for years, he didn't even try to ensure that he couldn't be caught. When you clog your plumbing with baby parts you aren't working very hard to not get caught. This guy was either a complete monster who enjoyed the death and violence, he was completely convinced that the state was backing him up in every situation to keep the abortions and infanticides available or both. You cannot assign him normal motives and methods of behavior. When you examine the conduct of abusers, e.g. wife beaters, child abusers, serial murderers, etc. their actions are not governed by reason.

This guy killed several women which would make a normal person go to great lengths to make sure that it didn't happen again. He got more violent and braver not less. The reason this story is so outlandish and the reason he isn't the left's new poster-child for choice is that he didn't behave in a reasonable way.

185 Sorry, that should be logical fallacy. Damn fat fingers.

186 All I can hope for is that Rocks was stone cold drunk last night and wakes up to the WTF realization that he adamantly defended this monster.

187

186 He's obviously a west coaster or otherwise he stayed up all night to argue for Kermit. There's a little taste of how west coasters think. Who says second (or first) hand weed doesn't change the brain.

188 #181 First rule of hole digging applies. Do you know what a locial fallacy is?

Posted by: Gulermo at January 23, 2011 10:15 AM (f+EPI)

Yes I do. Can you point to a place in that post which was a fallacy?

189 Check out ABCnews. They've got part of the story, but the embed video is about a pro-life bombing abortion mills!

190 You cannot assign him normal motives and methods of behavior. When you examine the conduct of abusers, e.g. wife beaters, child abusers, serial murderers, etc. their actions are not governed by reason.

Posted by: dagny at January 23, 2011 10:15 AM (A7E3U)



You can compare them to other wife beaters, etc. though. Leaving bodies parts in, forcing completion and killing women is not exclusive to animals. It happens at even the "best" abortion clinics. It happens during routine surgery.  These things can be assigned to the medical procedure and explained away to those reviewing him, his fellow abortionists. That is quite a bit different from forcibly performing an abortion to begin with.

I'm not defending him at all. I calling BS on this girl's story. I'm not assigning behavior which is rational or reasonable. This guy acted just like every other abortionist who ran a mill before him. I read the Grand Jury report. There is a lot of testimony from his employees, some of who were working at the clinic at the time the woman describes. None, not a single one, describes this guy has ever having anything to do with a patient prior to them being drugged up in the stirrups for an  the abortion except to try to weasel more cash out of them by suggesting the baby was farther along then it was and he never  he prep them all by himself if at all.  Even the Sunday abortions, which were described as being for the especially late abortions which would take days of preparation, he had his wife there to deal with the patients.

191 And for the record the only time drink nowadays is St Patrick's day and I don't smoke weed. I live on the east coast too.

192 And for the record the only time drink nowadays is St Patrick's day and I don't smoke weed. I live on the east coast too.

Posted by: Rocks at January 23, 2011 02:13 PM (WxagK)

Wait, that's not completely true. I had a drink on election day.

193 One angle of this story that hasn't been mentioned but should be looked into-- Late abortion is illegal in PA, but it's legal in NJ, just across the Delaware River. For $11, you can get ride on SEPTA (mass transit) from Philly to Trenton, where Planned Parenthood has an abortion facility, that probably charges a lot less than Gosnell. So--who was referring poor, uneducated women to this creep when there was a legal, cheaper, and safer alternative a subway ride away---AND WERE THEY GETTING KICKBACKS? Also, did Gosnell make a specialty of forced abortions? He certainly charged a lot for them. This information ought to stop the pro-aborts who claim this only happened because late term abortion is illegal in PA---but of course it won't.

194

"There's no indication he had anything whatsoever to do with a patient prior to the time they are already in the stirrups." Will this serve?

There isn't any way to know, definitively, what happened to whom and when. We don't even have an accurate number of patients he "treated", because he apparently kept incomplete records. How are we to know?

" I calling BS on this girl's story." Why?  At this point she is an unknown. My guess is that more women will come foward with additional stories, given time.

Look, I understand your hesitancy to immediately condem him for this additional crime. Any fair minded person would feel the same way. You are not defending him.

Do you think it is absolutely impossible that he could have used force to abort her? Not probable, but absolutely impossible. My Father once told me that, "The man that says "Nothing is impossible!", never tried to put a beach umbrella up his ass and open it." It is technically possible; practically improbable.

 The point I am trying to make is that at this juncture we don't actually know much, just what has been and is being alledged. And as unsatifactory as this idea might be to us, there may never be a complete, definitive, reckoning.

I wrote much more, but deleted it. There isn't much point of snipeing at you about this. I am sure that I will learn more about this than I ever wanted to know and will be poorer in spirit for it.

195 ROE vs WADE should be overturned and abortion should be a federal crime