1 Very splodey. Blows up real good. Make more. Send to troops. QED.

2 to bad every thing about it is hand made.  No production line.  THIS is where earmarks were used for good.

3 Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it? What the hell is the XM-25? Did you go to journalism school are something?

4 O/T:  "Switzerland freezes any assets tied to Mubarak"

5 Yeah, let me see what the Saudi King thinks of that thing...

6 Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it? What the hell is the XM-25? Did you go to journalism school are something?

Posted by: Tigtog at February 11, 2011 01:34 PM (Q5+Og)

It may not seem like it, but this is a smart military blog. That means you may have to occasionally look up a term on your own initiative.

Shocking, I know.

7 One problem with this new gun.  The manufacturer has to hand make every round themselves; there are no production lines anywhere.  This makes them extremely expensive without the economy of scale, and also very scarce if the troops find themselves running low on rounds.  They should be getting some money like yesterday to make some more guns and more rounds to be given out to all frontline units.

But seeing as how this new gun works so well, Obama will most likely cancel this project because too many dirtbag Taliban are running scared of it.

8 I saw this in the sidebar and posted it on Facebook.

Not only do I think the military should have more of these for use in Afghanistan, I think they should start developing a version of this for use by SWAT teams while doing urban combat.

Not only is this good for squads out in the field, but using it on urban combat will make it easier to get rid of entrenched enemies by having a shell burst and rain shrapnel down on them.

9

To 4, don't you know ME dictators don't stash cash in Europe anymore, they have Abu Dabai for that. You are so 20th Century.

10 Did you go to journalism school are something?

At least he spelled it correctly. What do you want, an encyclopedia?

11 Oh yeah, new name for this gun:

Teh Pwner!

12 O/T:  We missed this in the midst of everything else.  But it's important.

When I was reading this I kept thinking about that woman who really believed that BO and company was going to pay her mortgage.

13 3 Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it? What the hell is the XM-25? Did you go to journalism school are something?

XM-25 = a squad artillery weapon which uses laser sights to send out shells and then rain down shrapnel on an enemy behind cover, such as a boulder.

The UK press got it right by referring to it as a "Judge Dredd" gun, as it resembles the weapon used by the Judges in that comic that can shoot around corners and do all kinds of other tricks.

The US soldiers are referring to it as "The Punisher", though, and I'm sure that the Marvel guy writing the Punisher MAX line would love to write this thing into the book.

14 I think they should start developing a version of this for use by SWAT teams while doing urban combat.

Not sure how the police feel about launching shrapnel all over city streets with a lot of collateral damage potential.

15 Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it? What the hell is the XM-25? Did you go to journalism school are something?

Posted by: Tigtog at February 11, 2011 01:34 PM (Q5+Og)

You fire it....it kills bad guys far away.  Not sure why you couldn't get that from what was written.  You want manufacturing specs, look them up.

16 @4: after all, the "virtuous" Swiss had no problem making money off of Mubarak's stolen billions while he was in power. But now they have to worry about sucking up to the next strongman.

17 OT: Barky still polishing his victory speech, now delayed until after 2 pm.

18

Israelis have what is essentialy a TANK fired version of this... in 120 mm now...

Variable fused round which can be set to explode on contact, or after contact by a few meters.... so it goes THROUGH walls, then explodes.

Will also be very effective vs. thin skinned vehicles...

19 2 too bad every thing about it is hand made. No production line.
_________

X stands for eXperimental.

20 One of the little-known secrets of ballistics is that rate-of-twist varies slightly, at least with most manufacturing techniques. It's actually quite important but the results are usually worked out by the end user or ignored (i.e. one rifle may stabilize projectiles with a longer bearing surface better than another that's supposed to have the same rate).

The XM-25 is dependent on a precise rate of rotation of the projectile, if that varies, it may go off substantially behind or in front of the target.

They have to be very picky about this... right now I'm sure that comes out in testing, but it may (may) be one reason they're not rushing into mass production.

21 17 OT: Barky still polishing his victory speech, now delayed until after 2 pm.

He can try and try as much as he likes, but it will just be one well-polished turd.

22 So this weapon apparently works and is light years ahead of anything our enemies have ha? So we only make 5 more and then kill the line right.

23 The Army won't begin mass producing the XM25 until sometime in 2013 at the earliest Hmm, they're thinking he's a one-termer, too...

24

>>> Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it? What the hell is the XM-25? Did you go to journalism school are something?

Click. On. The. Fucking. Link.

 

25 OT: Barky still polishing his victory speech, now delayed until after 2 pm.

Posted by: Retread at February 11, 2011 01:40 PM (okCHU)

Has he figured out who won yet?

26

Can they make these in a manner that boomerangs the shot back at the shooter?

We should build some like that and drop them on the other side of the battlefield!

 

27 Variable fused round which can be set to explode on contact, or after contact by a few meters.... so it goes THROUGH walls, then explodes.

"Knock-knock"  "Who's there?" "Ka" "Ka-whom?"  "KA-BOOM!"

28 There may only be 5 in Afganistan, but there are six in use in Camden NJ

29 24 Click. On. The. Fucking. Link.
_______

COTFL? I am so stealing that.

30 How long before I can buy one at the local gun shop?

31 It is foolish to rely on these high technology weapons. We need a time tested, reliable technology like high speed trains.
 
Therefore I hereby order all troops to be issued crossbows instead of firearms. They are better for the environment as well, with no CO2 emissions and reusable bolts.
 
Now the chosen ones can come forward and kiss the hem of my robe.

32

Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does

We ALL know what it does. Big fans. 

We ALL covet it.

33 This (XM25)does not sound like it leads to fair fights, thus I think it should not be issued to US troops.

34 Not only is this good for squads out in the field, but using it on urban combat will make it easier to get rid of entrenched enemies by having a shell burst and rain shrapnel down on them.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at February 11, 2011 01:36 PM (iBaup)

I think a few oceans will flow through a few rivers before we get any kind of widespread use of fragmentation grenades in urban America by police.

Just sayin'. Even not considering the public relations nightmare, liability alone would have administrations shitting themselves and fainting.

35 Has he figured out who won yet?

Of course he has, he did, almost single-handedly.

36 Oh, I forgot the environmental impact statement.
There will be an EPA review of the XM25 which can be expected to last until all US troops have been withdrawn from any country in which they might be used.

37 Therefore I hereby order all troops to be issued crossbows instead of firearms. They are better for the environment as well, with no CO2 emissions and reusable bolts.
 
Now the chosen ones can come forward and kiss the hem of my robe.

Posted by: King Barky The First at February 11, 2011 01:43 PM (h0RtZ)

No, Crossbows are culturaly insensitive, because at one point Crossbows could not be used against Fellow Christians, but only non believers, thus to issue them would be an insult to Islam.

Longbows, and Slings on the other hand....

38 25 OT: Barky still polishing his victory speech, now delayed until after 2 pm.
Posted by: Retread at February 11, 2011 01:40 PM (okCHU)

Oh, darn.  I've got a lobotomy scheduled at 2:00 (the only way I'll survive the next two years of Learning Curve's administration).

39 26

Can they make these in a manner that boomerangs the shot back at the shooter?

We should build some like that and drop them on the other side of the battlefield!

We've got shoulder-fired missiles that are somewhat like that, IIRC, thanks to the Friend-Foe detection built into the technology.

40

Israelis have what is essentialy a TANK fired version of this... in 120 mm now...

Variable fused round which can be set to explode on contact, or after contact by a few meters.... so it goes THROUGH walls, then explodes.

The Small Diameter Bomb is like that too.  You can program it to go through x floors before the warhead detonates.

41 Bring out the Holy Hand Grenade!

42 Is it too much to ask for a body count?  And pics?  (I'm evil that way.)

43 Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it?

It's a phased plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range.

44 If they had high speed trains in Afghanistan, they wouldn't need any XM-25's.

You know it's true.

45 I could see maybe (when they're in mass production) a "police" version that uses non-lethal projectiles, like gas... but it would probably not be 25mm munitions but 37/40mm - to hold enough gas or whatever. Non-lethal is harder than lethal to fit in small packages.

Also flash/bang.

46 42 Is it too much to ask for a body count?  And pics?  (I'm evil that way.)

No confirmed body count, mainly because the Taliban are running as soon as we start shooting these things at them from so far away.

47 What is the XM-25?  A standard 40mm grenade arms after a certain number of rotations (the round spins) for point detonation.  The 25mm round _explodes_ after a set number of rotations.  That number of spins coincides with the distance to the target as determined by the laser range finder. The round has a chip where that information is downloaded from the scope.

Thus you have an air burst each and every time at exactly the right place. Airbursts are very effective at cleaning rats out of their nests.  The problem is that until the XM-25 the smallest round that had air burst capability was the M224 60mm mortar.  Which is not exactly a squad level weapon.

48 The US soldiers are referring to it as "The Punisher", though...

palin steele hardest hit. 

49

>>> It's a phased plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range.

So you can cook with it then right?

50

The XM-25 is dependent on a precise rate of rotation of the projectile...

Wouldn't it be better to integrate the acceleration and calculate how far it has flown - sort of a mini-inertial nav system?  I first assumed the round was just variable-timed-fuzed, but I guess muzzle velocity might be as variable as rotation rate.

And I wonder if they have tried using multiple weapons, one to flush them out, and a couple of others dialed-in on the fallback routes.  They could call that the SUX2BU.

51

It's a phased plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range.

Posted by: yeah, I go nuthin at February 11, 2011 01:48 PM (GTbGH)

 

religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

52

I wonder if these things can be fitted for non-fragmenting rounds, i.e. smoke or flash-bangs.  Betcha your average SWAT officer would love the heck out of that...

53 Another OT: Mark Steyn just called Barky an idiot on Fox.

54

15 Even if it doesn't kill that many bad guys, the ability to break enemy morale with this weapon is substantial...and sometimes breaking their morale is worth more than actually killing them.

It would be really nice if they could start producing these things sooner...that's if they go into production at all.

55

Shouldn't you explain what the XM-25 is and does, before saying everyone loves it?

It's like a Crossbow that shoots Depleted Uranium- Rabid- Alley Cats around Corners!

56 I donno, nothing says "I love you" like a deftly turned bayonet in the chest.

57 Another OT: Mark Steyn just called Barky an idiot on Fox. Posted by: Retread at February 11, 2011 01:51 PM (okCHU) Yup and pretty much intimated that we're all gonna die.

58 Another OT: Mark Steyn just called Barky an idiot on Fox.

Posted by: Retread at February 11, 2011 01:51 PM (okCHU)

There's calling it like he sees it. We see it pretty much that way, too.

59 I could go for some good war pron vid of The Punisher.  As a palate cleanser for the screw up that is Barky and his minions.

60

Posted by: unknown jane at February 11, 2011 01:51 PM (5/yRG)

Historicly, you kill more of the enemy once they start to run away, than you do in the fight itself...

61

>>> Another OT: Mark Steyn just called Barky an idiot on Fox.

Oprah Winfrey hardest hit.

62 I've been a bit skeptical just based on its complexity, we're talking about a weapon fielded by a country (us) that sometimes has a hard time coming up with conventional small arms that keep working in the real world.

That said, I'd have to defer to the troopers' judgment when it comes to whether a weapon's likely to go TU when they need it.

WP round, anybody? Empty a truck in a hurry?

63 19 2 too bad every thing about it is hand made. No production line.
_________

X stands for eXperimental.

Posted by: Frank Burns eats worms at February 11, 2011 01:40 PM (FzhYM)

And Daewoo has been sending the RoK Army it's 20mm version for two years now, the K-11. It has a five round magazine.

64 58 Another OT: Mark Steyn just called Barky an idiot on Fox.
Posted by: Retread at February 11, 2011 01:51 PM (okCHU)

Don't tell Oprah.  She'll be pissed.

65

>>> It's a phased plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range.

So you can cook with it then right?

Posted by: Tigtog at February 11, 2011 01:49 PM (JzKy

Boy, is it ever helpful with MREs!

66

Another OT: Mark Steyn just called Barky an idiot on Fox.

Can he get any hotter?

67 59 I could go for some good war pron vid of The Punisher.  As a palate cleanser for the screw up that is Barky and his minions.

The next-best thing, IMHO, is renting Punisher War Zone on DVD and watching the OTHER Punisher at work.

68

Kit Up! learned, however, that while the XM-25 is impressive, the weapon had been fired a few more than 50 times in less than 10 engagements and had chalked up only two suspected kills. After getting the brush off from PEO Soldier Weapons initially, they later set up an interview for us to talk to Col. Tamilio (PEO Soldier Weapons), LtCol. Lehner (XM-25 PM), Maj. Christopher Conley (XM-25 field evaluator) and Sgt. 1st Class Carlos Smith (XM-25 field evaluator) to “tell the American people” whats really going on with the weapon. So, here’s the straight dope (and this is verified by another source not connected with PEO Soldier — and NOTE: I do know at least one of the units who has used the XM-25 in Afghanistan, but I agreed not to reveal the information for OPSEC reasons).

69 Witnesses say five people dead and 42 wounded in clashes between Egyptian protesters and police in northern Sinai - Reuters   Protesters in northern Sinai....wonder what they are doing there? Hmmm? Oh, but they just want democracy. Yeah, that's the ticket.

70 They are already going after Israel (my supposition--don't know another reason to riot in northern sinai) hence barky's speech delay. Looks like their first order of business isn't writing a new constitution or holding elections.

71 I've been a bit skeptical just based on its complexity, we're talking about a weapon fielded by a country (us) that sometimes has a hard time coming up with conventional small arms that keep working in the real world.

It's not a new class of weapon.  It's a grenade launcher that has a fancy fuze.

72 Oh, but they just want democracy. Yeah, that's the ticket.

That's just a sign of how politics and language work in the Middle East.

Eskimos have 200 words for "snow", I think that Muslims have quite a few more that mean "Kill the Jews".

73

Say hello to my leetle friend.

74 It looks a lot better than the M203 I used to tote to the range back in the day. The M203 was a cool concept, but it was pretty much impossible to know where the round was going to land. Basically it was just an extra part of my weapon that I had to keep clean.

75 60 Romeo...I know...

76

White House implies to ABC News that it was Obama who got Mubarak to step down

http://abcn.ws/heYA7G

77 Weapon effectiveness comparison.

M16 - Dakka.
M209 - Modakka.
XM25 - Even modakka.

Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at February 11, 2011 01:44 PM (bxiXv)
Perhaps, but consider the ability- instead of with fragmentation grenades, to deliver flash-bangs or something similar with this method.

78 Quilly Mammoth - that Daewoo piece looks nice. 

Don't think Dianne Feinstein will let me have one. 

79 According to its Wikipedia article, the ammo will go for $24 a round. That's why it just counts revolutions. Just hope there's no kill switch on them operated from Washington.

80 74 It looks a lot better than the M203 I used to tote to the range back in the day. The M203 was a cool concept, but it was pretty much impossible to know where the round was going to land. Basically it was just an extra part of my weapon that I had to keep clean.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 11, 2011 01:58 PM (xMT+4)

And you have to raise your head up higher then everyone else to shoot with it from the prone position.  And high winds would definitely fubar your shooting.

81 This sounds like a smaller, personal version of a missile we are developing...it's like a JDAM, but explodes above the target, sending a blizzard of tens of thousands of hardened metal bits traveling at mach 5 that completely obliterates everything on the ground within 3000 square meters or so.

  Cool!

82 can't wait till Kucinich et al call for it to be banned, you know, "if we weren't there maybe they wouldn't be shooting at us in the first place and this kind of thing'll just make them angrier" logic

83 And the next generation is just around the corner! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pxjnl1yuXk

84 White House implies to ABC News that it was Obama who got Mubarak to step down.

The Obama administration has been telling Mubarak what to do, telling the Egyptian military what to do, telling the protesters what to do.

I would like to see some general hold a press conference and say "Who the fuck do you think you are?"

85 79 According to its Wikipedia article, the ammo will go for $24 a round. That's why it just counts revolutions.

Just hope there's no kill switch on them operated from Washington.

Posted by: t-bird at February 11, 2011 02:01 PM (FcR7P)

The M734 Multi-Option Fuze, which we use on the 60mm mortar is not only expensive, is the smallest proximity/near surface burst fuze there is, but it is too big for a 25 mm round. 

86 So while the body count racked up by The Punisher isnÂ’t great — those with experience in Afghanistan know fights are usually at a range where BDA is impossible. But what really matters is that the shooting stops. PEO officials pointed out that in the nine TICs where the XM-25 was used, not one single Soldier was injured or killed.  Col. Tamilio said that the XM-25 will likely stay with the unit that has it now in Afghanistan through the winter. Around March theyÂ’ll bring the five weapons back, see what kind of wear and tear they endured and refit them to “like new” condition. Then they want to give the five Punishers to a unit whoÂ’s spooling up for deployment and have them take the XM-25s over with them. (Kit Up! Standard Issue and Beyond, "Inside the XM-25 After Action Reports from Afghanistan," by christian, 2/4/11)

87 You guys seem to think this is new technology.

I remember seeing Yosemite Sam carrying the same firepower back in the fifties!

88 The Obama administration has been telling Mubarak what to do, telling the Egyptian military what to do, telling the protesters what to do.

I would like to see some general hold a press conference and say "Who the fuck do you think you are?"

Posted by: Ace's liver at February 11, 2011 02:05 PM (QgI7g)

And the Saudis will take this sooooo well...

Not only did America get involved, TELLING Mubarak what to do... its a BLACK US President doing it... that will not play well in the House of Saud...

89 So while the body count racked up by The Punisher isn’t great — those with experience in Afghanistan know fights are usually at a range where BDA is impossible.

True.  But the big knock on this weapon since the beginning was the round lacks lethality because of its size.  They were using 20mm originally and found it just didn't do enough damage.  I realize you can go a little smaller if you come up with something more accurate, but the standard has been 40mm.

90 50 Wouldn't it be better to integrate the acceleration and calculate how far it has flown - sort of a mini-inertial nav system?
_____

You've gotta leave something to put in the proposal for the followon weapons system.

91 Posted by: Romeo13 at February 11, 2011 02:09 PM (AdK6a)
I do believe I see the ocean levels falling as well (but it may be that high tide was an hour ago)!

92

"...Sgt. 1st Class Carlos Smith, Soldier Requirements Division, Maneuver Center of Excellence, Fort Benning, Ga..."

I hate how the Army calls everything the Blah blah Cenrter of Excellence.  The "excellence" means nothing other than spending a shit load of taxpayer dollars to re-sign everything.  I swear, when I was in Ft. Leonard Wood, I took a crap on the United States Army Bowel Maneuver Support Toilet of Excellence.  Seriously, Army, make installations earn the excellence title or do away with it altogether.  Lame.  But the XM-25 sounds awesome.

93 50

The XM-25 is dependent on a precise rate of rotation of the projectile...

Wouldn't it be better to integrate the acceleration and calculate how far it has flown - sort of a mini-inertial nav system?  I first assumed the round was just variable-timed-fuzed, but I guess muzzle velocity might be as variable as rotation rate.

--

Actually, that's the concept behind the old variable timed fuze. That technology has been worked on since around WW1 and is pretty much gone as far as it could go.  With the proximity fuze being unable to scale that small rotations is a better way.

94 >>> But the big knock on this weapon since the beginning was the round lacks lethality because of its size. Eh... Is lethality the most important thing? If a guy gets his face shredded and pocked with shrapnel and superheated air, look, he's not going to keep fighting. He'll live, but his day is done. Right?

95 Okay, this shell is a mite small; but it's the biggest we do for a small squad accurate weapon, and even if not as powerful as you'd like, it does seem to do the job. Or at least a lot of the job. Sure, I'd want all these guys dead and not just injured. But... I mean, it's a good tool.

96 Eh... Is lethality the most important thing?

If a guy gets his face shredded and pocked with shrapnel and superheated air, look, he's not going to keep fighting. He'll live, but his day is done. Right?

Posted by: ace at February 11, 2011 02:21 PM (nj1bB)

As much as I love lethality, I must agree that while it may be the best thing, it's not the only thing.  This weapon seems to do a good job of destroying the enemy's will to fight, and in a tactical situation I'm sure that's pretty popular among our guys.  From a more strategic angle, I assume that over time that kind of thing can cause serious hesitation among the enemy grunts tasked with going out to start trouble.  Nobody wants to spend all day picking steel shreds out of his face/arse/privates.  Plus that helps consume their medical supplies as they try to fight off all the infections that must surely come with a bunch of small puncture wounds.  Sometimes it's better to wound 'em. 

97

If they need more punishers, "Hung" might be cancelled after next season and Thomas Jane will be available.

He was a great Punisher.

98 I would like to see some general hold a press conference and say "Who the fuck do you think you are?"

We should hand it to the Egyptian upper class when it comes to speaking. Don't miss the numerous Mubarak public responses. Remember the Saudi King's response to Obama? And the Feb. PBS News Hour interview with Ahmed Aboul Gheit, Foreign Minister of Egypt was thoroughly elegant.

Pres. Mubarak began last night, “I am addressing all of you from the heart, a speech from the father to his sons and daughters,” and he went on to express pride for them and delineate the constitutional changes he's amending to meet progressive humanitarian interests.

“Can this man be serious or did he lose his mind?” asked George Ishak, a longtime opposition leader. Now, compare Ishak's judgment of insanity to John Gage's on February 8th. Speaking as President of American Federation of Government Employees picketing outside the Capitol demanding more taxpayer dollars for their already bloated salary and benefits. AFGE President John Gage announced that those who are prepared to cut federal salaries are "mentally retarded".]

The press and revolutionaries only heard what they wanted to hear, and translated "meanings" of words to meet their own expectations -- the mark of immaturity.

Wael Ghonim, a Google executive and protest organizer whose Facebook page helped ignite the movement, celebrated in a Twitter feed: “Mission Accomplished. Thanks to all the brave young Egyptians.” [a la Bush Iraqi victory misconstrued.]

Some official public announcements included CYA and toss the dogs a bone motivating interests. Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq told the BBC that talks with Mr. Mubarak about his possible resignation were already under way.  Hossam Badrawy, the top official of the ruling party, said in a television interview that he had personally told the president he should resign.

99 94 >>> But the big knock on this weapon since the beginning was the round lacks lethality because of its size.

Eh... Is lethality the most important thing?

If a guy gets his face shredded and pocked with shrapnel and superheated air, look, he's not going to keep fighting. He'll live, but his day is done. Right?

Posted by: ace at February 11, 2011 02:21 PM (nj1bB)

Caring for the wounded uses considerable resources (as the US military does it) thus there is a collateral cost on an enemy associated with a weapon that does not necessarily kill.  The alternative is to not use resources to care for their wounded--this would seem to result in significant morale problems in both the near and long terms

Although I prefer neutron bombs, which seem tailor made for application in the ME, the XM25 seems like a good useful short-term approach.

100 If a guy gets his face shredded and pocked with shrapnel and superheated air, look, he's not going to keep fighting. He'll live, but his day is done. Right?

But you do need to make sure you take him out of the fight, even if he's wearing body armor.  The question is how close you have to put the round to make that happen. 

101 If a guy gets his face shredded and pocked with shrapnel and superheated air, look, he's not going to keep fighting. He'll live, but his day is done. Right?

Copy that!  This weapon does a better job inspiring fear and hesitation on the enemy which is a far better effect than just killing someone dead.  Let them scream in pain, making his comrades think twice the next time they're setting up an ambush not knowing if the next squad of marines coming through has an XM-25.  The effect is a pure psychological hammer, breaking their will to consider engaging.

102 I'd like to see something similar for the 40mm grenade launchers. Making those more precise would help a lot.

The precision revolution keeps rolling on. Eventually these 40mm and 25mm grenades are gonna be guided and have tiny flight control surfaces. The XM-25 isn't guided, but it's clever spin-counting is a nice, reliable, inexpensive way to add precision.

JDAMS to Excalibur to 155mm PGK (Precision Guidance Kit) to 120mm MGK (Mortar Guidance Kit) to 70mm APKWS (laser guided 70mm rockets). Next are 81mm and 60mm mortars and 40mm grenades.

Holy grail is the guided bullet. And I won't be surprised if that shows up in the 2020s, if not sooner.

By 2030 pretty much everything in the arsenal will be precision guided or have a precision guided variant.

103 12 O/T:  We missed this in the midst of everything else.  But it's important.

When I was reading this I kept thinking about that woman who really believed that BO and company was going to pay her mortgage.

How about option #4 - No government involvement whatsoever?

104 Got it, 25mm programmable round. I looked at this 15 years ago with MARCORSYSCOM. As I remember, this was developed by USARMY - Natick. Marine response was why develop in 25mm when we already had 40mm grenade launchers. We passed on it then. Interesting that after 8 years + of ground combat it is still an experimental item. That usually is known as a clue.

105 Holy grail is the guided bullet. And I won't be surprised if that shows up in the 2020s, if not sooner.

Already exists in prototype, and it works.  The problem is cost.

By 2030 pretty much everything in the arsenal will be precision guided or have a precision guided variant.

It makes sense.  I was reading an article on arty recently.  Initially there was a lot of moaning about the cost of GPS guided shells, but since they're as accurate at 40km as they are at 10km you just don't need as many tubes.  Plus, you don't fire as many shells so your whole logistics train can be smaller going all the way back to the factory.

In the end you have a much deadlier military for less money.

106 That usually is known as a clue.

Posted by: Tigtog at February 11, 2011 02:37 PM (Q5+Og)

A. If the XM25 had been developed by GE, every troop would have two.

B. If the XM25 could be used on high speed trains, they would be available to the general public.

107 Tigtog, Natick has been trying for years to get a longer range round.  The M79 had a longer range, but meant that the G had to carry a side arm (at the least) hence the M209.  The real problem is that there was the competing design of the XM29. The OICW was a Holy Grail and the military wasted years on it.  The 20mm round was worked on and then dropped in favor of a bit more HE in a 25mm.  The RoK's continued on with the 20mm which is why they have the K11 in service now.

By the early 00's project leaders were saying the only good thing in the OICW program was the programmable grenade. Poltics kept it (the OICW) alive because of the idea it could be integrated into the land warrior program.

108 Right, an all precise inventory would save huge on logistics costs. Of course, sometimes you want just huge area suppression, so we'll probably never go all precision guided.

I want to see precision guided naval artillery for the DDG-51s. They've had dozens of programs for the past 20 years and they never work. The DDG-1000 will have guided shells for the 155 mm gun. But we're only building 3 of those ships.

We need a 127mm precision guided shell to add precision to the existing destroyer and cruiser fleet -- especially the DDG-51s which will be the backbone of our fleet for the next half century.

109 By the early 00's project leaders were saying the only good thing in the OICW program was the programmable grenade.

XM-8 was pretty sweet as well, just not enough to justify the cost.  They've managed to address the worst of the M-16/M-4 problems with the new uppers.

The big problem with OICW was the height.  You basically couldn't fire it prone.

110 LOL, talking it down because of lethality concerns???

If you stop and think about what it is for and what it is intended to replace that would not be an issue. It replaces the old hand thrown grenade. When comparing lethality that is the yard stick.

It is not intended to replace the 155 mm artillery shell.

It is the same argument made against the .30 M1 carbine in WWII. No lethality, but the carbine was designed to replace the old hand held pistol which it was a lot better than for 95% of the troops.. 

111 I want to see precision guided naval artillery for the DDG-51s. They've had dozens of programs for the past 20 years and they never work.

I'm not an expert in naval arty... do these things even have a role any more?  Seems like the range is far too short to be of much use beyond blowing up fast attack boats, and you could use a helo for that.

112 To 106, my meaning is simply something remains experimental for long periods of time indicates a serious design or requriement piece is missing. Caliber and its lack of lethality may be the piece. Requiring a new small arm added to inventory to fire the thing is a real drag. Finally, the confidence in ranging to target to program the round may be a meaningful issue. Ranging requires clear line of sight to affect. My memory of this device is old (15 yrs +). While interesting, better minds felt then that infantry already possess indirect fire weapons capable of delivering air bursts over dug in targets (i.e. mortars, artillery, and air delivered munitions). Which would you prefer, a couple guys with 25mm launchers instead of 40mm launchers or a section of mortars dropping beaucoup rounds on your target?

113 It replaces the old hand thrown grenade.

How many hand grenades are 25mm in diameter?

114 Another cool near term weapon is the LOGIR rocket being jointly built with Korea. It's a 70mm guided rocket for naval usage. APKWS is a laser guided 70mm rocket. LOGIR (Low Cost Guided Imaging Rocket) uses an imaging sensor. I'm pretty sure it's for swarming boat attacks and that sort of thing. So you can fire a bunch at once.

With multiple laser guided rockets you have the problem of deciding which rocket hits which laser spot. Typically it's just a one laser designator/one laser seeker situation -- and that doesn't work so well if a dozen Iranian jihadi boats try a swarming suicide attack in the Persian Gulf. With LOGIR each rocket locks on to an image at launch and can chase it down and blow it up, true fire and forget with no tricky coordination with the other rockets.

115 To 110 regarding M1 Carbine replacing handgun. The M1 carbine was only useful as a ranch rifle to shoot varments with. Too many stories of Marines/GIs shooting a human target several times with no knock down/killing effect. BTW, the handgun you refer it was intended to replace was the 1911A1 .45. The .45 delivers knock down killing power at short ranges (note the 9mm does not). Finally, for anyone equipped with a pistol their normal combat tasks require that their hands remain free. Nothing pisses me off then having a slung rifle falling on my map while using my radio to call for fire.

116 Yes the .45 has one hell of a lot more knockdown than the .30 carbine round, but the average person can't hit shit with it past 30 feet.

117 The Chinese could give us a good price on mass-production of the M25. Obie should look at that.

118 <i>
I'm not an expert in naval arty... do these things even have a role any more?  Seems like the range is far too short to be of much use beyond blowing up fast attack boats, and you could use a helo for that.</i>

Yeah, that's a fair point. It can't hurt to have a precision alternative as an option, and the dozen or so failed R&D attempts indicate somebody in the Navy thought it was worth a shot. Also the tech shouldn't be a problem at this point. We have Excalibur at 155mm, PGK at 155m, and now MGK at 120mm. So 127mm shouldn't be that hard -- just hire ATK, they seem to have solved this problem.

Partly I also just think guided naval artillery is cool. It could be used for cheap shore bombardment when battling 3rd world countries, pirate infrastructure ashore, terrorists. I can imagine a DDG-51 sitting off a Filipino island and wanting to plink a terrorist hut.

BAE is (or at least was) developing a 5" (127mm) LRLAP -- that's the guided round for the 6" (155mm) DDG-1000 gun.

The 127mm LRLAP would have a 50nm range. So a DDG-51 could sit 25 nm off shore and hit a target 25 nm inland.

So it's less about hitting other ships than hitting some bad guys or targets ashore.  At least that's my understanding.

119 The last I heard the Navy was still using the old 5"-38 for artillery. Anything needed bigger than that they just shift to cruise missiles.

And I don't think we'll have many more days of massive shore bombardment with arty.

120

According to its Wikipedia article, the ammo will go for $24 a round. That's why it just counts revolutions.

Just hope there's no kill switch on them operated from Washington.

Posted by: t-bird at February 11, 2011 02:01 PM (FcR7P)

I'm pretty sure there's some complex ballistic calculations behind the fuse setting. The spin rate decays over time, so that's got to be factored in. The decay rate also varies by air temperature and density. IRRC the weapon has several sensors built into it to allow automatic calculations for these factors.

So while the fuse may simply count rotations it's fed data from a sophisticated system.

And I'll bet there's also the eternal human factor of judging the effects of wind involved. But the thing is mostly point and shoot -- which I'm sure makes it a very effective (and fun to shoot) weapon.

121 More Details: At Kit Up!
Posted by: Ace

You're welcome.

122

Um, no, dimwits, the M-1 carbine was not developed to relace .45 semi-automatic pistols. That is preposerous. How do you dream up this bullshit?

It was developed to provide an equivalent to Germany's light submachine guns called machine pistols, light subnachine guns manufactured inexpensively with a high rate of fire and with larger magazines than the clips in Mauser rifles. The M-1 carbine could be fired on automatic or on semi-automatic, like the German machine pistols, providing a higher rate of fire than the M-1 Garand rife, which held only an 8-round clip, as opposed to the carbine's 20-round magazine. The carbine had neither the range, nor the accuracy nor the punch that the larger rounds fired in the Garand, however. So it was preferable only for close-in combat ...., only to prove to be less preferable even for that purpose, however, after the M-3 .45 ACP submachine gun (aka, the grease gun)  was developed, also, the latter of which saw more combat in more theaters, also.

123 Christmas 2010: XM-25 @ $25/shot
Easter 2009: GBU 36 @ $250K/shot

Diane West, Saturday, April 25, 2009
a military e-mail from Afghanistan that marveled: "As far as BDA (battle damage assessment) goes, check this one out. 2 GBU 36's (bomblets) dropped the other day on estimated 6 guys!!!! That is half a million dollars on 6 guys!!!!" The e-mailer guessed that all the sniper ammunition the jihadists have used in the whole war hasn't cost close to that.

124 An infantryman's question: what does the weapon weigh?

If it weighs as much as 240B and the grunts actually WANT to carry it? That's all you need to know.

125 And I don't think we'll have many more days of massive shore bombardment with arty.
---

True, but the scenarios I've seen for DDG-1000 are more for supporting fire for smaller units. It's not a D-Day scenario. It's a small(ish) team sent ashore to take out some terrorists and they call back to the ship to get something blown up. You can sit off-shore and plink some targets.

We have more DDG-51s than anything else, and we are building more. Being able to accurately strike anything within 50nm just is a nice capability to have in your backpocket.

126 We have more DDG-51s than anything else, and we are building more.

If we don't get that barky SOB out of office we will be lucky to have any Navy at all.

127 vic at 119 - IIRC the last ship built with a 5"-38 cal was the Long Beach. The Battleships also retained at least 6 twin 5"-38 turrets. 5" production then went to the Mk 42 single which was a 5"-54 cal and then to the Mk 45 5"-54 cal which was the main armament on the Spruances and Ticos with two singles and then the Arliegh Burkes with one single.

128 Right ... so a "weapon" that allows the Taliban to live to fight another day is effective.  Uh, think again - the Taliban aren't going anywhere ... [fill in the rest]/

129 To 116, regarding 30 feet, pistols are short swords meant for personal defense, so 30 feet is about right. If you are issued a rifle then you usually are not issued a pistol (snake eaters excepted).

130

Vic - Rereading what I just srote I had a oh shit moment. The Long Beach was originally built with no gun armament at all, the first US surface combatant not to have any. 5" guns were added later when it was realized that she was defensless against close in attacks by small boats.

131

Um, no, dimwits, the M-1 carbine was not developed to relace .45 semi-automatic pistols. That is preposerous. How do you dream up this bullshit?

It was developed to provide an equivalent to Germany's light submachine guns called machine pistols, light subnachine guns manufactured inexpensively with a high rate of fire and with larger magazines than the clips in Mauser rifles. The M-1 carbine could be fired on automatic or on semi-automatic . . .

Don't be a dumbass, Brian.

The M1 carbine was semi-auto only. The M2 was selective fire.

132 ...the scenarios I've seen for DDG-1000 are more for supporting fire for smaller units.

I guess I don't have a grasp of the numbers.  Unless the gun system is cheap (from an engineering standpoint) or you can use it for AAW it still seems like you'd be better off dispensing with it and using helos for that role.  You'll have them on hand for ASW anyway.

133 You know what I meant, Ed. You're just being petty, as usual.

134 To 131, for some reason people actually think the M1 Carbine was a servicable combat weapon. It was not. Most infantry who carried it traded up as soon as possible for an M1 Garand or a .45 Thompson or grease gun. Combat support and service support troops were normally the ones issued the rifle. Hey, you buy a couple of million rifles, somebody needs to carry them to make things look good. A good ranch rifle though!! Could be bought for a couple bucks and the ammo was cheap.

135
Now they just need to get some thermobaric rounds. That'll take care of that "how may did we kill?" question.

136

The M-1 carbine was specifically issued to a range of troop types as a specific alternative to pistols. Almost no large formations were ever armed with the carbine exclusively. (And I say 'almost none' to exclude motor pools and engineer formations which might have been.)

I own one myself and if you take an empty carbine cartridge case and drop it into a .357 magnum cartridge case it disapears completely. While I love shooting my M-1 at the range if I wanted a saddle rifle for varmints I would go with one of the modern .357 lever actions.

137 I'll be in my bunk.

138 And it takes 138 comments and tangonine to get to the true moron-worthy initial reaction.

139 124 An infantryman's question: what does the weapon weigh?

If it weighs as much as 240B and the grunts actually WANT to carry it? That's all you need to know.

Posted by: PB at February 11, 2011 03:27 PM (u2P3y)

LOL.  I was going to say, if it kills everyone in a 10mile radius, you'll have crunchies lining up to hump it.

140 "The kids are calling it 'the Punisher,'" said Brig. Gen. Peter N. Fuller, who heads up the Program Executive Office Soldier. "

Only an idiot acquisitions officer calls soldiers "kids." 

Fucking asshole.

141 I thought the Vincines used a 5" on that Iranian boat. I haven't researched it but that's what it looked like.

As for the M1, I have had a couple of those and I loved shooting them. They did become much more lethal if you hand loaded your on ammo with semi-jacketed lead round nose Spier(?).  That's what we used to use when shooting beaver at night on the river.

But yes, if I was going into combat I would want something heavier and I am not sure that would be the old M-16 or whatever equvalent they are using now. I have had a Ruger .223 Mini-14 and it was nice to shoot but I think I would still want something heavier.

142 141, good catch. BTW, he is trying to keep his program funded. This isn't something new and exciting, but something old, tried and passed over.

143 Brian,
If you ever make to the Infantry Museum at Ft. Benning you'll see a display of the various American arms that a soldier would carry. The M1 was specifically requested by the Chief of the Infantry sometime shortly before WWII for use as a light rifle, concurrently the Ordnance Corps was concerned about providing more firepower for service and support troops...who's numbers were growing. It had to be lightweight.  And it was at about 5 lbs.

Although it was originally proposed for service troops it was soon issued to soldiers such as officers and NCO's, radio operators and others who needed a lighter weapon that helped keep their hands free or their burden light.

BTW:it was the M3 that was originally designed as the American version of the Sten and the MP40. It became a favorite of the armored folks very soon. In 1989 I went to a reserve infantry unit that still had them for recovery vehicle drivers.

144 Vic at 142 - The Vincennes was the third Tico (Ticonderoga class cruiser) built and carried two 5"-54 cal Mk 45 Mod 0 guns. (the first four Ticos carried Mod 0s the rest were built with Mod 1s.) The caliber classification system for ordinance refers to the length of the barrel compared to the bore diameter. Thus the Mk 30 gun on the Long Beach was a 5"-38 cal, the barrel was 38 times the five inch bore in length. The Mk 45 Mod 1 or Mod 2 on the Arliegh Burke is a 5"-54, the barrel is 54 times the bore diamter or 270 inches. The Mk45 Mod 4 is a 5"-62 with a barrel 310 inches long.

145 People, people, please!  Let me be clear.  We simply cannot afford any new weapons until my innovative program of high speed rail construction has revived the economy and eliminated unemployment.

146 My last intro to naval guns was in boot camp in 1970. What they had then, as best I can remember, for the small guns was the 5"-38.

Since my rating had zero to do with guns I promptly forgot everything about them.

147

Well Vic if you like small guns on Navy ships you'll love the 57mm jobbie they got on the LCS (Little Crappy Ship).

A full 2 and 1/4 inch gun. That will come in really handy when the Marines hit the beach and need some support fire.

148 Quilly, thanks for the info, but I don't need to go to any museums to see those firearms. My late uncled left me and my brothers a huge gun collection, some of which he accumulated himself, but most of which were left to him by my grandfather, including a huge assortment of American, British, German and Japanese firearms from WW II, some of which my grandfather took off of dead Germans or prisoners  ..., firearms from the Amrican Civil War era, etc,, including Winchesters, Henrys, Spencers, Colts and many more ...., some of which are really, really cool, like, for example a Nazi SS belt buckle that pops open to expose a 2-barrel deringer that folds out and fires at a flick of a little lever ...., a fancy, engraved, Winchester .45-70 lever action rifle that Teddy Roosevelt was supposed to have given to one of his indian guides as a gift, and other kinds of cool stuff like that, all of which we're going to pass on to our sons when they grow up to do whatever they want to do with them, showing them fascinating pieces of history in the meantime,  When I was a little kid, I used to listen to my uncles, my dad and my grandfather and their friends talk about guns, their hunting trips and their war experiences for hours and hours with fascination. It was more exciting than anything on TV.

149 Brian, the M1 carbine was the MTOE weapon for cannon crewmen, staff NCOs, signal types, and the M1A1 folding stock was MTOE for much of the parachute engineer company in the airborne division's engineer battalion. Plus it only had a 15, not 20 round magazine if you'll excuse my being pedantic. It was also very popular as a foreign aid weapon to smaller folk for whom the Garand was a bit much, like Filipino resistance fighters, ROK troops, and the ARVN.

As for the XM-25, if Kit Up! wanted to be OPSECish about what unit is doing the field testing, maybe they shouldn't have used a pic where the shooter's brigade is visible in the helmet patch. I know one of the guys who's done some of the test firing. He said two shots flushed the Taliban shooter out of his covered position and cut him up some, but the guy next to him with an ACOG-topped M4 got the actual kill.

It wasn't just a HK project. Everyone from Colt to AAI and Winchester has had a piece of the SPIW/OICW since the 1970s.

150

Posted by: Brian at February 11, 2011 05:16 PM (sYrWB)

You just can't help yourself when it regards to making yourself an asshole.

151

How about an XM-25 round, or larger artillery round, that explodes a heaping helping of "pork and pork by-products in a congealed jelly-like goo."

 

 

You know, weaponized spam.

152 Yeah, Ed, like you would say that to my face, wouldn't you? You cowardly litle pile of shit.

153 Lord save us from idiot frolls.

154

#155 - Still haven't gotten a job yet, eh?  Still a loser? Still a creep? Still a misfit?

How long has it been now, nearly two years that you've been a lazy, useless bum, a deadbeat, a freeloader and a parasite? Gee, I just can't imagine why nobody wants to hire you.

155 Happily employed "Brian". But as for yourself, have you lately tried to imply that any US military personnel tragically lost overboard at sea were homosexuals?

156 #148 -- If that's that Canadian 57mm, they were hyping it in the 80's as having the destructive power of at 100mm (4-inch) shell.

157 #122 Brian you have no freaking idea what you are talking about. The M1 carbine was solicited for and designed SPECIFICALLY to replace the service handgun.

158 They should call it "The Separator" because it will separate a man's soul from his body. 

159

The army may need those XM-25 but the liberal politcal hacks would rather use that money to get fancy office furiture for their plush offices

160 #158 - Ah, so that's why you're so whiny. You're a neurotic, little homo and your feelings were hurt 'cause you're ashamed to be such a degenerate. I should have figured.  Take a hike, you creepy, little pervert. You're very sick.

161

158/159/160 is just a neurotic and creepy, little homo. Geezez, it was so obvious.  

A pervert!!!  No wonder he is both mentally and emotionally unstable. So sick 'n sad.

162

#160 - Yeah, right, shit-for-brains, that's why all of the branches of the  U. S. Military retained the 1911 .45 ACP Semi-Automatic Pistol as their standard issue sidearms right up until the middle of the Viet Nam War, and, in fact, FYI, some  government agencies still issue it to their staffs.  You continue to show that you are just a clueless blowhard and a bullshit artist and a genuine, authentic weirdo.. As with these other batty, reactionary dimwits here, your ignorance is stunning. How do you loonies get through life?

163 160 #122 Brian you have no freaking idea what you are talking about. The M1 carbine was solicited for and designed SPECIFICALLY to replace the service handgun. Posted by: Progressive White Liberal at February 11, 2011 08:52 PM (fTAxJ) No. No, it wasn't. The M--1 Carbine was intended to be issued to service and support troops; where a full bore battle rifle was deemed not necessary or too cumbersome to emplace while preforming their primary war fighting task. The weapon's portability gained favor with more and more troops, especially in the Pacific with the Marines. Eventually, the M-2 select-fire version was added. Is there anything else? Really....... white, progressive and liberal is no way to go through life.

164

"That's what we used to use when shooting beaver at night on the river."

 

OMG

165 I can haz one for squirrels? Think hiding behind that stumo is going to save you, you little tree rat?!!!!  

166 Oops stump